e good news is that i've declined slightly from last year, assuming the data is reliable. at the same time, close to a billion dollars of the improper payments were in the certification area. >> i apologize for interrupting but i am already over time. we have a lot of people waiting. basically 1.9 billion -- 789 million, states are asked to audit every three years. the last report we could come up with was clear back in 2005. that it's been 10 years. we are holding the federal component of this which is of course now playing a much stronger role three different standard and that is a different concern. why 10 years?

>> so the reviews of districts have to know every three years the report you talk about is a nationally representative study that usda does. an in-depth report for the interview households comest anacapa terrace and watches what on the tray to make sure there is accuracy. the report is very important. it is relatively costly and takes a long time to do. it provides the information that can be helpful to developing proposals for how to improve errors because you get to the bottom of what is causing errors in what errors are most prevalent and that allows you to design tailored solutions. >> senator stabenow. trendlines in this area, we juggle of course the desire and the need to make sure we are accurate, the children who need and qualify for lunch and breakfast are getting at is opposed to those who should not be. on the other hand we have

situations we don't want to add additional cost to the local schools juggling between administrative costs and actually providing quality meals. we have a number of issues to juggle. the last billy dead having community eligibility put into place has made a huge difference in michigan and schools be more efficient and have more dollars to feeding hungry children. mr. lord, it sounds like you are saying the usda has accepted your recommendations and are moving forward to make changes. >> yeah, absolutely. they agree with all of our report recommendations and recently provided an update of steps taken to implement them which is good news for the program. >> that is great. that is wonderful. when we talk about program integrity which is important, they have unintended consequences of removing children who should be getting

food. could you give us some examples of when this happens and what approaches we take to actually improve improper payments at the same time protecting access for children. what is the best way to do that? >> as a highlighted in a report you can attack this from various angles. obviously the verification process we think could be strengthened. you can do it in a way that will not adversely impact children truly in need. i get to send school districts are reluctant because of lack of training and expertise. >> the kinds of things you're talking about? >> it would impose some additional cost. the net result would be freeing up some additional funds to the program to those who truly deserve it. on a cost-benefit standpoint it would be effective. they would have to do more additional studies do not. >> that is always the juggling.

ms. neuberger, talking about verification steps and additional administrative costs and how we balance that, obviously one integrity of its programs and every penny to go to children who need it. even automated tools can be cost prohibitive for some schools on a type of shape. do you believe additional investment in air reduction could come at the expense of improving meals and when you look at the meal reimbursement what's on into baghdad to cover administrative costs with milk programs versus investments in technology because we really need to understand this so we can do this right. >> that's a really important question. at the school district level schools get a per meal reimbursement or free meals about $3 right now and not has to cover all the costs is it with pointing the program.

it will prepare the food and all the administrative processes. there is no separate funny strange to cover buying and putting more staff in place to do these checks. it is really important to balance the goal here because if to match of the funds have to go towards the administrative processes, they are not available for food. at the federal level there have been grants to improve their technologies has said and those seem to be contributing to a reduction in that error. that's a great investment. >> the chairman and i have been talking about the fact for small schools i went to school on one of those in northern michigan. it can become particularly difficult and we are interested in working with you and recommendations as it relates to small schools as well. >> will the senator yield? >> i would be happy to.

>> i haven't visited enough schools yet, but we are getting there. the school that are doing this they do a pretty darn good job. they simply cannot keep pace with the paperwork, et cetera and the training mr. lord says, they are doing the best they can. this isn't a one-size-fits-all. ..

mr. lord is talking about. in some cases errors result in children thinking up having to pay for meals or they may not be paying for meals because of some simple error. so to help make the system more efficient and assure all children receive meals what are against him to waste application can be improved, the actual application? i know that direct certification has been very successful. how can we better utilize the data matching to reduce errors so that we again from the families and are not penalizing a child because somebody didn't check a box of? >> that's a great question. the first step is to make sure

as you're relying on data from other programs as often as possible so as future as possible go through the application process. that improves accuracy. there will always be children are going to the application process so you need it to be a simple understandable form. the process of needs, and the like of the programs sitting in an office with a professional eligibility worker confided information and ask follow-up questions. the application goes on families fill out on their own without assistance and they may not know you need to multiply weekly income by 4.3 to get them with income. they may not know what they're supposed to list in the household. it's very clear that people have trouble understanding the application and one indicator is in usda study they found that out for the children who didn't get meals that they actually legitimately were eligible for three quarters of the time that was because of the family had understated their income on the application. these are families that bother

to apply that qualified but they didn't get in because they misunderstood what was expected. usda has issued a brand-new revamped application that's much simpler and should be helpful in terms of soliciting correct information and they are embarking on electronic application which is again very promising for making it easier for families and schools to get the right information. >> thank you. thank you, mr. chairman. >> senator baldwin. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i guess the question i would have would be, do we have districts that mr. lord, do we have districts that you acknowledge that are doing a much better job than the average in regard to the problem? are the districts we can learn from that we can then take their knowledge and push to other districts of? >> sure.

i'm sure there are, senator, but unfortunate our scope was confined to the 25 school districts we examined in detail. there's thousands of school districts across the nation. we didn't have the time or resources to does all of those but we did get some important insights just from visiting 50 we did, examined in great detail. >> very good. >> i can add to that. with regard to direct certification the use of data from other programs, usda has ranked state performance. they are that are doing a fabulous job. west virginia and kansas are examples of those angela people on the next and who can speak to that. michigan is another great example of that taken advantage of resources and continuous improvement and got a performance bonus that are correctly certified 100% of the kids they should be. that are great examples of the state and district level and usda is working on sharing those best practices so that others can learn. >> i'd like to also acknowledge the importance of simply find

the application processes. i was on the school board for seven years, you know the paperwork on these type of things our poor special ed teachers that work so hard the paperwork that they endured from the list goes on and on. again i would just like to throw my 2 cents in that that's something that doesn't cost any money, that ultimately saves a lot of money. and there's just something about government, and i am part of government that we just add to that burden, and whether it's the irs or this or anything else. so again i think that's a very very important and hopefully we can work to remedy that. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, senator. and we have senator gillibrand. >> thank you, mr. chairman.

thank you ranking member stabenow for holding this evening. this is an issue that i could deeply about. i brought apples today, so this is a half cup of apple somerville between get and every school lunch program across new york. lots of states have lots of great produce but this is a half cup so for parents in the room we know this is not about of come if you brush your half cup you can put up with these in the event. staff can have been. i had a tactic they really good. since would talk about this issue of school meals, the one issue i want this committee to remember because i think it's so important that we shouldn't have the standards. the chairman said that 40 pashtun what they say -- 46 states applied for whole-grain wafers. those are individual states -- schools within 4016th but 90% of schools are complying so we're doing quite well in beating the nutrition standards that we set aside in the last bipartisan bill on this topic. i would want to make sure we don't cut the requirements specifically for the half cup of fruits and vegetables.

asks understand the mentioned about obesity, what are we doing? we need to make sure these kids understand they should be eating fruits and vegetables daily, that they are an important part of how they grow, how they learn, how they are healthy. and the rate of obese adults in this country is again and your statement about our military and having access to the men and women they need to be fit is a real concern. so i think it's important for us to look at the dynamics of the fruit and vegetable requirement. if we are cutting the standard for school meals i think the kids get the biggest hit. who suffers most financially who loses the most business it's actually farmers. i want to talk about the farmers in my state and the farmers and other states on this committee. and kansas they produce honeydew melons which i know my kids love and that's a great school snack to have access to real melons. in mississippi blueberries.

kids love blueberry. kentucky blackberries. arkansas, at a mommy what one of those easy financials for kids to be. sweet potatoes can we prefer then fried against they are very good. cherry farmers in nebraska field greens in north dakota, watermelon in south dakota peach grove in georgia and apple growers in new york. all of those farmers across the states represented by this committee would be harmed if we reduce the standards for that half cup. if we cannot cut fruits and vegetables from our school meals, not only to the farmers suffer but i really believe that kids suffer my children benefit so much a map access to fresh fruits and vegetables every day and every deal come and to love him as a consequence. they know how good it is to eat fresh fruits and vegetables during their news. so i am hoping that as we debate these issues going forward we can focus specifically on how we can keep these standards. i know both of your testifying

specifically about how we can affect and change errors so want to talk specifically about that for a question. ms. neuberger come in your testimony you mentioned accounting and claiming errors often result from busy lunchrooms were students have little time to select a foreign eat their meals to any of these operational errors occur at point-of-sale. should we consider making more resources available for point of sale system to reduce errors and approve program integrity? >> thank you. certainly automated systems can make the process much easier. they could dig up front investment and so you need to balance the costs involved with the simplifications and in the air reduction for places that are using them to report that a simple by the process tremendously for students and for the school nutrition staff who could have a lot of things they are juggling in the lunchroom. so making a process simpler and more accurate as a great way to go. >> you mentioned a bit about the

community eligibility and that we need to eliminate the need for meal applications completely at eliminate much of the potential error. what can we do to lower the barriers to see the participation of logistics and schools? what are your top recommendations? >> it's actually a new option working very, very well right now. it just isn't the furniture is available nationwide. it builds an option for the benefit of for a long time that essentially available to high poverty schools so that they don't have to go through a standard application process where a century they would be finding the future who don't qualify for free or reduced price meals. and essence the whole school qualifies. with kennedy on the go to relate exclusively to they don't take applications, they rely on data from other programs. i can reduces errors and opportunities for error, and in the report they found is expected that there were fewer errors in those schools.

that's school districts are realizing what an advantage of that can be and what he sees because they don't have to spend time on paperwork, the savings to get on the ministry of side can be reinvested in the meal quality and conserving all students at no charge. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you. >> senator casey? >> mr. chairman, thank you very much and want to thank the ranking member for having this hearing as well. you are both good to have as gather on these issues. we are grateful. wanted to say first that we have two major concerns when we talk about these programs and about food insecurity. when of course and we should start with the children. in pennsylvania we have not only a lot of children participate in both school lunch and school breakfast, fiscal your 14 over a million children in the school lunch program and about a little

more than 346,000 in the school breakfast program. but at the same time with almost a half-million children in poverty in our state. so this is is a great urgency and concern that we get this right. i've always been a believer that these programs, just like a number of other programs or strategies can help us out on and sure that more children have a measure of food security and get the nutrition they need but they can also help them learn of course. i've always believed that kids come if they learn more now they will earn more later, and it's not just a ride. it's backed up at all the evidence. and the second major concern we have of course is totally making sure the programs work for just making sure they are administered in a way that's consistent with the expectations of taxpayers and used taxpayer dollars efficiently. so i appreciate the fact you are

bringing two of the only kind of a diagnosis of what the problems are but also remedies for improving both programs. ms. neuberger, i will get to you in a moment on kind of a broader question i want to ask you a specific question about the wic program, the women, infants and children program. your firm, center on budget policy encourages released the report was according to research linking prenatal and early childhood participation in wic with improved cognitive development as well as academic achievement. so kids whose moms are participating in the wic program while pregnant scored higher on assessment of medical development at hq than similar children whose mothers did not participate. so in light of this link between the program like that the wic

program, and the cognitive development of the child my learn means firm connection, can you walk through some of the benefits of wic and why we should focus on national? >> absolutely. wic provides nutrition assistance for pregnant women and very young children and those are critical times for bring development as we heard earlier. there's a large body of research that shows that wic is successful in bringing participants very important improvements come improvements in health in their nutrition, what you're eating, eating healthier foods, improvement and breast-feeding rates, better connections to preventive care higher immunization rates and new findings on the link to cognitive development. so that's a panoply of boys which participate in the program can help low income families and at this critical time that they are off to a better start. >> i appreciate that and i think it bears repeating. speaking of things we should

repeat, could you walk through the four questions again that you had in your -- in other words, questions we should consider when we are analyzing these programs are i think they are very important at that guidance. i just want have you repeat it because i mounted it helps to repeat thanks. >> absolutely. so does the proposal have a proven track record of reducing errors? and that's where all the research on this subject can be very helpful. will it maintain program access for the most vulnerable children? so of course when you're reducing air rage still have the unintended consequence of making it harder for kids who qualify for the meals and need them to get the. and that is admittedly feasible to expect those to there isn't a one size fits all solution. and forth, is a cost effective? will the error reduction be worth the cost involved in setting up a system? and not make it such a cumbersome process that it's more difficult for schools to administer in we may put those

on the chart so we have been in front of us. in the very limited time i have mr. lord, one question and then they submit more to both of you for written questions. on this question of direct certification, do you think that increasing participation in community eligibility and the direct certification would help reduce improper payments? >> i believe it could, if applied properly. we look at the direct certification for 23 households. we found errors in a couple but in our discussions with usda officials and as ms. neuberger pointed out that would greatly relieved the administrative burden at the school district level, has the potential for streamlining the entire process. just want to make sure the initial certifications at the s.n.a.p. level under the program levels are being done correctly. but it is should point out the improper payment rate and the s.n.a.p. program is much smaller than the improper payment rate

in the school lunch program. so that suggest that's a good way to go, based on just that comparison alone. >> thank you. mr. chairman, thank you for the 45 extra second. >> anytime accountable and request additional -- well maybe not anytime. [laughter] >> i'm ready. >> thank you, senator casey. i want to thank the first paper thank you so much. the first panel is now concluded. i'm sorry. oh, i'm sorry. senator thune, i apologize to you. >> well, thank you mr. chairman. i know that i'm down here along ways at the children's end of the table. i appreciate you and ranking member stabenow holding this hearing today, and as we do prepared to reauthorize the child nutrition legislation is this coming year we need to i think take an objective and bipartisan critical assessment of the

programs, and make sure that they're working in an efficient, effective and accountable manner. for the people that they are intended to help. i have serious concerns about the error rates in the national school lunch and breakfast programs, which for 2013 and 2014 school year were 1520% 23.1% respectively. improper payments for these programs total almost two points $7 billion for the 20132014 school year which is a staggering amount. another's no one in this room want any child to go hungry. we all know there are legitimate needs for food assistance but when we have programs of error rates that are $2.7 billion just for one school year, we simply have got to figure out to put this money to better use. there's another area i think needs the attention of this

committee and is allegedly standards for these programs. to the current standards result in child nutrition assistance being distributed wisely to the people who really need it the most? and so just a couple of questions if i might for this panel. either loved or from the second panel about the rigidity in the programs in the people who are actually out there on the front lines. i'd love to get a sense for the standards and just a lack of flexibility that exists today, doing a better job of balancing nutritional offerings. so anyway, i'd love to hear from the second panel about that subject, i guess the question i have for you is what would you change about the eligibility requirements of the current child nutrition assistance contract of programs as they exist today? >> i think the important thing

when you're talking about reducing errors and improper payments which i think we all agree is a very important endeavor is to create a culture where, a culture of compliance with the rules. we want the rules to be followed. i don't think the rules themselves are the problem. i think it's helping people understand them and are lots of different people involved in the system to its families when they're filling out applications. it's schools when their many programs. its state when they are administering them. so i think that kind of day in and day out work is what's most important to reduce errors and reduce improper payments in the program. >> i would second that and also add it's important as a former president once famously stated it's important to not only trust but verify. i would add to that and said it's important to trust and verify in a meaningful manner. we found through our work that the verification process could be strengthened in several important ways.

i think that will serve to reduce improper payments rate and help drive that number down. although i should add in response to a ms. neuberger responded on the accounting side equation from over $700 million the improper payments estimate is due to simple accounting errors at the school district level so i think that's very that could be addressed as well through technology, better training. there's some important ways they could drive that number down to enhance the operations of the program. >> so do you believe that more state and/or local input on establishing eligibility requirements could be helpful in cutting down on some of the incorrect reimbursement rates? >> personally i think there's two ways to go at it. you have to first explore the potential of data analytics and

computer matching to help simplify the process make it more efficient. and you can do that in a more come at a state agency level with the getting down to the school district level. but at the school district level i think and it's be great awareness about how to fill out applications completely they need to periodically do spot checks of what people are reporting. so i think you have to approach it in a multifaceted manner. centrally at the state agency level as well as the school districts as ms. neuberger pointed out, they are not as well equipped to do their own rigorous verification. >> what of the things that does make a school meal programs easy to understand and ambition it isn't that a different set of rules that applies across the country. that is an important simplification and source of fairness and i think it's important to consult with districts and states about what we work to help the programs run more smoothly and more accurately in their areas.

but that's not the same as considering changing the eligibility rules or other program rules. >> do you think that categorical eligibility for school meals ought to be unlimited? >> no. that's basically the source of tremendous simplification. that's what allows families who are already getting step benefits where there's a very rigorous eligibility determination, the income levels are going to be at or below the levels of poverty set within the school meal program. to basically that mr. mystification right now spent if that's true then which one should be utilized the most? >> right now any anyplace in the country is allowed to use data from the s.n.a.p. program our tanf cash assistant director our other categories like children that homeless foreign policy. that can be automatically eligible. medicaid is only available for

use in seven states right now so that's the potential there's untapped potential there were additional states could benefit from utilizing that data. >> okay. all right, my. all right, my time has expired mr. chairman. i think this band and look forward to the testimony from the next one. thanks. >> senator stabenow? >> thank you, mr. chairman. i just want to give a quick follow-up, mr. lord. you were talking about how as well as to simplification but also making sure we are rigorous in our oversight standards and so you indicated this s.n.a.p. program has a smaller error rate, which it does, one of the smallest in the federal government in terms of over all errors and that there's a larger air raid in the program. so if we're going more in the direction of time to just have continued and billy which is a dilemma in michigan and been

very effective is that what what you would suggest you look at s.n.a.p. which actually has more rigorous, oversight, lower error rate and tying it to them i actually.com push both the goals of simplification and also tightening things up? >> that's what i was suggesting and i was citing the omb figures on their estimated improper payments. there some degree of imprecision with it without alone suggests s.n.a.p. can't even though there are some errors in the program, when you rely on that method to enroll people in the school meals -- >> it's actually less because i think it is below 3% effort remember right, right now. that's the lowest error rate everything went in agriculture programs. >> it's about 3% and begin a national school lunch programs 15.25%. much higher. >> i think that's an interesting thing for us to highlight. thank you very much spent one last point in a report, even

though we know, we did note that if you're deemed categorically eligible for the program through programs such a s.n.a.p., you are excluded completely from verification. our point was you may want to subject some of those eligible applications to scrutiny. >> thanks very much. >> senator klobuchar? >> well, thank you. [laughter] we had a hearing on patent reform which was quite excited for a wedding earlier. thank you, chairman roberts and ranking member stabenow from this important hearing to review the child nutrition programs an advanced overwork to reauthorize the program. i worked hard in the last reauthorization to strengthen local wellness policies to update the nutrition standards for childcare centers and afterschool programs and also to ensure that vending machines and a la carte choices would undercut good nutrition and the sale of junk food. i think we all know how

important schools are to our kids nutrition. i'm proud of the work that we have done in the deal and i think we know that we've seen some improvement but i think we also know that there are problems ahead if we don't continue this work to make sure kids get the most nutritious meals possible when they are at school. the 2010 reauthorization of child nutrition programs specified by usda conduct a review of food items provided under the wic program at least every 10 years based on institute of medicine recommendations. some have argued the review process should be expedited in certain circumstances. ms. neuberger, is the current review timeline keep pace with scientific advances on the nutritional quality of fruits and vegetables? what can be done to improve the process? >> there's a review under way right now so i just want to make sure everybody is aware that, so that is working as planned. the rule is actually, the review

has happened at least every 10 years but it can happen more often than that if there is reason. so if it were important changes in dietary recommendations that might want a more frequent review. i think the rule that is in place makes sense. >> okay, very good. and it's been estimated by the journal of health economics that nearly 20% of annual medical spending in the u.s. is obesity related. how does this factor into the decision about how we reauthorize this bill? either of you can answer that. >> i think we talked earlier, i think both programs, school meals and wic have tremendous benefits in terms of helping children achieve the health and develop an outcome you would like to see as well as better preparing them for learning. so they are critical investment, particularly for low income children who may not have access to adequate nutrition elsewhere to help them develop properly

stay healthy and ready to learn at school. >> thank you. could you comment also the potential cuts to the child nutrition programs under the fiscal 2016 budget resolution that we've just been talking about on the floor ms. neuberger? >> broadly speaking we would be very concerned about the consequences for low income families in that agreement. that's not specific to these programs but across the programs that families rely when they are struggling to feed kids or make ends meet. >> and then just one last thing back to the wic program that we just talked about. it plays a critical important role in promoting the health of pregnant and postpartum mothers as well as young children. the continued success of the program is contingent on sound cost control. i and that states are given flexibility to develop their own food list based on usda's minimum standards and get some of the states with lower cost products off the list of approved food.

without the getting to states their wic food list how can we assume by states to consider cost control when determining approved food items? >> just to be clear wic is a federal program. most of the rules are federal. there are areas where the states flexibility. states have a built-in incentive to contain costs and wic because they get a limited amount. so the more efficiently they can use that money to more people that can serve and that's been very motivating. united states is a very cost effective program. wic costs have increased at about half the rate of inflation over time your it's a very sound investment and states have played an important part in debt. the way the program is to really contribute to that incentive structure. >> thank you very much. mr. lord, did you want to add anything for any of these questions? >> not on the wic, no senator. >> thank you very much. i'm glad to hear that it's very important topic. as i said the last bill that

senator stabenow was involved in, i senator roberts on the committee and a leading the committee i think was her import and we've made some great strides and we need to continued improvement in the nutrition standards. thank you to both of you. >> senator tillis? >> thank you mr. chair. ms. neuberger, or mr. lord, what to look back at the program. i'm from north carolina. i was speaker of the house down there, worked a lot with the there's a school systems. we have 115,000 in north carolina and they seem to be both for and against the food nutrition program in terms if you like the outcome but they did like the overread orbited necessarily like how the regulations required them to implement it, that the level of details involved. has there been any work done on trying to figure out how we can if we are measuring outcomes and that's the question i have

for you, mr. lord. i know you're going through, the gao is going through the verification process making sure that people who are entitled to get it and those who don't, don't. but what about the more fundamental question of a baseline when this program started, a year over year improvement in outcomes which at the end of the day is children's health and ensure they are fed. are we measuring those in a scientific way? and identifying best practices and intervening when they are compliant with the program but now producing positive outcomes of? >> i know ms. neuberger is bobby more well-versed on that but in terms of the outcome measure for the verification process, that was one of our suggestions to usda. they have recently started collecting a lot of good information on the so called for cause verification process but they mix it together with other reporting so it's simpler to us what the outcomes of all their efforts to conduct for cause

verification's. those are reviews of questionable applications. so at least in that one area i'm very familiar with. there's broad agreement they need to get a better job in looking at outcome measures in that area. that's verification related, and perhaps ms. neuberger can comment on the broader nutritional outcomes. >> ms. neuberger? >> sure. is generally quite a lot of research on the positive benefits of these programs come in particular, for example, children who eat breakfast at school have been shown to have fewer academic issues, less absence and tardiness and better performance at schools. so that's a clear anywhere there's a strong tie between debating in the meal programs and the kind of educational outcomes you would like to see in school. >> one question, i don't know if it's anecdotal or something that we need to look more at the judas choice choice of of putting come on oakland to pick a vegetable because i always make a segment of agriculture mad when i do but let's just a vegetable that for

whatever reason kids don't like yet, and they are concerned that they are satisfying the letter of the regulations but along the coast into the trash. to get any data to get that beyond anecdote or maybe and maybe something which could put into play to make sure that the young person's belly is full and better using the things that we are putting on their plate? >> hope that you ask the question in the second help because you some program operators. >> i just don't know if i'm going to be here. >> there is research on the extent to which children are eating their meals. this is not an area that i focus on because it's not my expertise but it has shown that there is less waste under the new rules and then was previously and there's certainly always room for improvement but it's important to note things seem to be moving in the right direction entrance of the dead how to get kids to eat. >> that's one of the concerns expressed by a lot of the people. i met with some in the school

boards association superintendents association. that seems to be a concern that they have expressed and i think it's an area we need to look at. i hope lingers like and brag of a bit on our farm fiscal initiatives in north carolina because we been very aggressive in that area and i think it's beneficial. we need to do more of it. convinced those kids brussels sprouts are actually particularly good, especially to know where they came from. i'm going to hold at a loss to move to expand and preserve my questions for the panel. thank you. >> senator tillis, i've been known to eat a brussels sprouts or two but always with cheese on them. [laughter] >> mine is with a bacon. >> welcome with bacon and cheese it might work out except i have problems with the cheese, too but then that's a whole nother -- we don't want to go there at this particular time. senator heitkamp? >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you for this important

hearing, making sure our children have the opportunity to succeed is something i think the entire committee believes in. and this is a good place to start when we talk about child nutrition and basically giving them the opportunity to grow up healthy and learn throughout the day. nutrition standards set in the health and hungry kids acted as an important first step to help creating a healthier and more prepared next generation. but we should also make sure that the schools have the tools they need to provide healthy meals. in north dakota 100% of our schools on privacy are meeting the standards. a couple months ago only one school still have asked for a waiver on a whole-grain pasta requirement so that's pretty incredible in a state that has a fairly high rate of problems as it relates to obesity. however the pew study found that 74% of north dakota schools still need at least one piece of

school equipment, kitchen equipment come in order to meet the standards. senator collins that i've introduced the bill to help schools purchase new equipment and provide you with the technical assistance on food preparation in meeting the standards. and so just want to put a plug in for the school food modernization act which i think will give the tools that the many of our people who serve our children every day, and by that i mean literally and figuratively, the equipment and the tools that they need. this is especially important in rural schools where the school districts already strapped where you have a large population but come or small population but a huge need for upgrading. i've said many times. my mom was a lunch lady so i am especially partial to the school lunch program. i know what that meant. i know where she did every day to try put nutritious and good food on the table. i also knew that there were kids that went to school with where

that may have been the only meal that they got all day. so she took that responsibility seriously, and so we've been talking a lot, mr. lord about program integrity and making sure people who should we participate in the program are not. obviously, a surfer dude hit the news last year in a big way but ms. neuberger noted that one of replication were denied despite after household circumstance. and we're wondering, as we close the loophole and make sure that we don't of fraud in this program, how can we make sure more kids into this program will actually need these nutritious meals, who actually need a backpack going on the we can? >> well, i think you need to raise awareness and perhaps give additional reached at the school district level. i think there is good awareness of the program but in some pockets perhaps there isn't so part of your average for the

program. you always want to be sure those were deserving are in the program. >> we've done outreach. i'm looking for a new solution. >> well, that's probably, in my humble opinion that's something the next panel could probably better addressed. they are working of the local level and they have really good perspective on the. i served up the global view. >> i think you take my point is usually, which is where fraud but we also have a lot of kids who go home hungry and that's got to be part of this discussion. ms. neuberger, can you suggest any ideas on how we can expand awareness or how they can expand the dissipation for children who go hungry? >> sure. awareness is certainly an important part of it making the program accessible in making sure they stay that way. we're focused quite a lot on the ways they can improve accuracy and nature the programs are working as they should. it's important at every step of the way there to make sure that you're not putting barriers in

the way for families who qualify for the programs in the benefits. and so that balance is in accord with making sure that the programs remain available for students. and relying on other programs with very high poverty schools can serve meals at no charge to all students are ways to make it easier for low-income families to get those benefits. >> thank you. yielded the rest of my time. >> thank you senator. senator brown senator ben have question for the next panel so i think tom and les i am mistaken, this concludes the contributions from the first benefit thank you so much for coming. thank you for your very valuable testimony. if we put them of the second panel please come forward. [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] >> i think in the interest of time we are going to introduce all of the witnesses, each one of course it deserves better timely moment of fleeting flame -- fleeting fame before the committee but we would like to welcome mr. brian riendeau. he joins us today from

louisville, kentucky, where he is the executive director at dare to care food bank. earlier in his career he also led government and kindred affairs for the kfc corporation. i think everybody understands who that is. and served as a legislative assistant for senator majority leader -- let's see that would be mitch mcconnell wouldn't it? >> i can't remember. >> you can't remember it's all right. thank you are being picketed we look forward to your test with the mr. richard goff of the office of child nutrition from west virginia and the department of education is next. he joins us today on behalf of the west virginia department of education where he has served as executive director of the office of child nutrition back since 19, pardon me 2005. he is 26 years of experience with the west virginia department of education where he worked with a child and adult

care food program. in his current role they overseas development of policies and program administration related to all child nutrition programs. i look forward to your testimony. and your insight this india jones of the only unified school district to 33. i am especially happy to introduce to committee ms. jones and served as the basis management coordinator for food service at the only the punk schools in kansas. she has worked for the only the public school food service for over 20 years. started at 17 as i recall particularly serve as a public policy and legislative committee chair and a served as vice president and president. i certainly look forward to her testimony under insight. doctor sandra hassink -- i hope i have that right -- who is president of the american

academy of pediatrics. currently serves as president and hails from wilmington, delaware. the doctor has focused her career on preventing and treating obesity in children. she is a pediatrician at new mars dupont hospital for children for she founded the weight management program in 1988, serves as the director of the pediatric obesity initiative. the doctor began her medical career at the vanderbilt school of medicine as one of only 12 women in her graduating class. thank you for being here today. i look forward to all all of the tests would. we will start with you mr. riendeau. >> thank you, chairman roberts ranking member stabenow and the members of the committee. thank you for inviting me here today. i'm honored to represent feeding america's network of 200 food banks that serve more than 469 people in need including 12 million children. dare to care food bank works with more than 300 agencies

across 13 counties in kentucky and indiana. our service that spans nearly 4000 square miles and includes urban, suburban and rural areas. i'm educated a child hunger israel, in the communities we serve and real across this great country. it's a particularly starke railway children are not in school. but i'm also to tell you today that we consult child hunger through innovative public-private partnerships and strong federal nutrition programs, we can insure ensure all children have access to enough food for an active and healthy life. i'm here to ask you to help us make good programs even better. food banks like mine cannot don't work without the federal summer food service program and a child and adult care food program. if certain changes were made we could reach even more kids in need. my food bank provides more than 1000 hot meals a day to kids throughout the. children who visit our partner sites will not only see a nutritious meal but have a safe

alternative to being on the street. street. they get tutoring, mentoring and sports. far too many children can't reach some and after school meal programs to go in the summer. in fact, summer food service program in my state which is less than 10% of the low income kids and only 18% nationally. why is that? at dare to care food bank a concert in jefferson county, and urban county were summer program and services are available and where many of the children get to sites. the current summer feeding model which requires children to consume meals at the devastated site works great in these instances where children have congregated for tutoring and mentoring. however, we face two counts in reaching kids and are more rural communities. lack of sites and transportation. those communities simply lack facilities where kids can congregate and consume a new which makes the on psychiatric why the difficult or impossible to comply with the even schools in those counties that tried to provide summer feeding report low participation rates because kids are not able to travel to the site each day.

there's several policy changes you can make what should help dare to care food bank reach markets to the summer and afterschool we believe it will require a two-part strategy. first we need to strengthen the site baseball by streamlining federal programs and making it easier for committee providers to expand the number of sites available to children. currently we have to operate two different federal programs wondering the school year and another in the summer. even if we are serving the same kids the same meals at the same site year-round. move into one program will allow us to focus on feeding kids and not pushing paperwork additionally lower in the area eligibility threshold from 50% to 40% will expand the number of sites available and online sf s.b. with those build with other federally funded youth programs. second note to committees are the same. we need to continue to maintain strong national standards and accountability while providing new program models at local committees can tailor to best meet their circumstances to

really make progress in closing the summer camp. dare to care food bank is privately funded programs to fill the skeptic our backpack program and rural communities provides children with nutritious foods on the weekends and in the summer the limited resources mean that we cannot provide a fact that every kid who needs one we've looked into mobile summer feeding programs but our committees are so small a four-part at the time requirement of having kids eat a full meal before we go to the next location as required would limit the number of children we serve and, therefore, the cost prohibitive. waiting to talk to get requirement to allow innovative program models in hard to reach areas will address these barriers and significant expand the number of children we reach. finally, this summer demonstration project provides another model that has been effective at both reducing food insecurity and increasing nutrition. in this model families of children receiving free or reduced price school meals are given a card to purchase food in the sumter would like to see his

program significant expanded in communities that have high need and are particularly difficult to reach. i'd like to close by saying i am convinced that child hunger is a solvable problem is would require collaboration between government business and nonprofit stakeholders and we count on you to make closing december 00 at the top or in the child nutrition reauthorization and to give food banks like mine the tools we need to serve every hungry child. i thank you for this opportunity to testify and that happy to take questions. >> thank you for the opportunity to be here today. i invest the direct in west virginia and i'd like to give you my perspective of the last two reauthorization's and have implemented it at the state agency level. as you know in april 2007, the iom released a report nutrition standards for foods in schools.

nine months later west virginia adopted those standards in her for school nutrition policy. the progressive standards were implement in the cafeteria and outside the cafeteria. we required schools to pressures a vegetable. vegetable. we implemented that skimming 1% milk provision. hostility with standard was 1100 milligrams of sodium which is a low more stringent than the tier one requirement and we adopted the whole grains rich standard. this is all back in 2008. we do not permit a la carte sales in west virginia. when children enter the café they get unitized know that meets a meal pattern for usda. we just felt it was the right thing nutritionally for the student and financially for the school district. outside the cavity with a limited but competitive sales rules that the iom recommended for all food sold sort and distribute tested during during the school did we remove soft drink machines and sugar-sweetened beverages, junk food machines,

vending machines and school stores have meet the nutrition standards set forth by the iowa. we also just healthy fundraising and required that in school fundraiser was to occur during the school day on school property that it had to meet the nutrition standards as well. we also instituted the professional standards at the time and had a staff of requirement whereby we required continuing education hours and a certain level of a degree for the food service director at the district level. additionally we did something different as well. we address the food coming in from outside sources. we have been everything we could to ensure the school environment was a safe and healthy learning environment in the cafeteria and throughout the school environment, yet we were turning a blind eye to what was coming in the back door in the form of parties and things of that nature. ..

our department has 275 employees serving 24,000 meals per day on a 12 a half million dollars budget. 27% of our students receive free or reduced price meals. we are committed to delivering nutritious meals. banks are universal free breakfast in the classroom program in five elementary schools we are serving 850 more healthy breakfast each day resulting in fewer parties and absentees and better behavior.

we also participate in the summer feedings serving 1900 meals per day expanding access to these critical services has helped our program remain financially sound while providing the nutrition that is vital to our students. even before the healthy hundred free kids act come school because professional have been working hard to improve school menus. in our district where offered unlimited fruits and vegetables concert whole grains and meat limits on calories and unhealthy packs by reducing sodium. however, we face many challenges. under the new rule many students are now bringing meals from home. our elementary school participation has dropped more than 9% and that the secondary schools revenues dropped as many since i've stopped purchasing à la carte choices. almost all the students leaving the lunch program are paid students. if this trend continues the school cafeteria will no longer be a place to all students go to

beat but rather a place where poor students go to get their free meals. we have worked for years to fight the stigma so it is heartbreaking to see our progress decline. kansas students are leaving the program for a variety of reasons. paid lunch equity mandates forced many schools to raise lunch prices. many families do not qualify for meal assistance but are struggling financially. as we continue to raise prices, some of the longer be able to afford to eat with us. the financial losses may force a program to cut staff so they're impacting the community. smart snack will select huge declines in oligarch sales with an estimated loss of $700000 in revenue. items such as a fresh to go salads had to be taken off the menu because the small amounts of meat, cheese and salad dressings cannot be the sodium and fat requirements. our sub sandwich was a very popular oligarch item but to

meet the rules which a shrink their size, remove the cheese and switch to whole grain bread. now we sell very few. we have also have opportunity to serve my soda, sugar free gum and coffee. we have chosen not to serve these items but it just shows you that these regulations do not always make sense. despite our best efforts to make meals more appealing we are struggling with student acceptance. we are particularly challenge to find whole grain in which tortillas, pizza crust and a special items that appeal to our students. every student must now take a fruit or but still within the is why they intend to eat it or not. as a result we've seen an increase in good food going to waste in our schools. we promote fruit and vegetable choices with free samples and i tried to stick is to encourage consumption, but forcing students to take fruit and vegetables turns a healthy choice into a negative

experience. encourage and educate instead of require is always the best option. olathe's school new program is self-supporting and operates on a tight budget. after labor and supply cost insurance from utilities equipment and other expenses we are left with just over 1 dollar to spend on food for each lunch tray. imagine going to the grocery store with just $5 to spend for a family of four including milk, fruit vegetables and healthy entrée. could you do that everyday of the week? my involvement in the school nutrition association of kansas has allowed me to witness the accomplishments and the challenges of colleagues all across kansas and missouri. some districts have overcome challenges under the new rules, to those with high free and reduced price eligibility which provides higher reimbursement in participation and access to federal grants and programs. many districts like olathe are

struggling with reduce revenue declining participation and high cost of repairing meals. we don't have access to many federal grants. that is what is vital to allow flexibility to all programs to be successful for the students and families we serve. there's a lot of negative press about school nutrition programs about flexibility. this is hurtful. we are only asking for flexibly to ensure all nutrition programs are successful the cafés in the knowledge of all school nutrition professionals that we know what's best for the children after all they are our children and grandchildren to. thank you for the opportunity to i will take any questions. >> yes, dr. hassink. >> thank you and good morning. i'd like to thank chairman roberts and ranking member stabenow and the members of the committee for inviting me here today. as those introduced, i'm sandra hassink at present american academy of pediatrics, nonprofit

professional organization 62000 primary care pediatricians and pediatric medical and surgical subspecialists whose mission it is to obtain the optimal physical and mental and social health and well being for all infants, children, adolescents and young adults. it's an honor to be here today speaking about a subject to which i dedicated my life's work, childhood obesity at the connection between nutrition and health. the foundations of child health are built upon ensuring the three basic needs that every child, sound and appropriate nutrition, stable, response and nurturing relationships, and safe and healthy environments and communities. meeting these needs for each child is fundamental to achieving and sustaining optimal health and well being into adulthood for every child. our investment in child health and nutrition are crucial. that time period from pregnancy through early childhood is one of rapid physical, cognitive, emotional and social

development. and because it is decided in a child's life can set the stage for a lifetime of good health and success in learning and relationships or can be a time of toxic stress on physical, mental and social health and learning are compromised. micronutrients such as iron and folate have demonstrated effects on brain development but are commonly deficient in pregnant women and young children in the united states. these deficiencies can lead to delays in attention, motor development, poor short-term memory, and lower iq scores. one of the most effective investment congress can make during the prenatal to school-age period it to support the special supplemental nutrition program for women, infants and children, or wic. i think the committee for its strong bipartisan support for wic over the past four decades. wic have scheduled a healthy start in life by providing nutritious foods, nutrition education, and breast-feeding support.

children who receive wic have improved birth outcomes increased rates of immunization, better access to health care through a medical home, and participation may help reduce childhood obesity. wic is also played an important role in promoting breast-feeding and approving breast-feeding initiation. we recommend the committee seek to find ways to promote breast-feeding initiation and continuation even further in the wic program come including by an increase in the authorization for the breast-feeding peer counseling program for $180 million. wic is a targeted intervention for mothers and young children with an unexpectedly long-term in nature, including improved health outcome educational prospects and prosperity of our committees to as a pediatrician i've seen firsthand the importance of nutrition in child health. wetness on my practice and childhood weight management 27 years ago i was seeing adolescents. when i retired last october eyed a special clinic for children

under five with obesity and reducing infants. these children were already showing the effects of increased body mass index on blood pressure and measures of blood sugar control. we saw obesity related liver disease in four-year-olds and a chilled with prediabetes at age of 60 today, our children are expensing an unprecedented nutritional crisis resulted in a double burden of food insecurity and obesity. the connecting factor for both is poverty. the highest rates of obesity are found in people with the lowest incomes. increasingly the picture of food insecurity in children is that of a child was overweight or obesity consuming a poor quality diet. good nutrition is not only an essential component of chronic disease prevention and treatment, it also helps treat the effects of chronic hunger. wic is just one intervention to address the double burden. families were schools childcare to committees and pediatricians

play an important role in shaping healthy habits to win in the middle of an epidemic you cannot keep doing what you've always been doing the as pediatricians, parents community leaders and policymakers we have an obligation to ensure that the food we provide our children is healthy and nutritious and that we model healthy eating as adults. good nutrition and childhood sets the stage for lifelong health and just like the vaccine to protect against illness we can also vaccinate against chronic disease by providing pregnant women and children with nutritional assistance and breast-feeding support. as we celebrate our mothers this weekend i urge the committee to put mothers and children's nutritional needs first. our children's health simply cannot wait. thank you and i'll be happy to take any questions. >> thank you very much. we will proceed with questions. i know that chairman will be returning in just a moment, so thank you to each of you for your comments. we very much appreciate and dr.

hassink, they get very much for reminding us all what this is about in terms of children and the health and the stake we have in children being healthy and had a chance to succeed. mr. goff, i want to start with you because when i think of west virginia, give all kinds of schools, rural, urban, and yet your state is 100% compliant with the new neil standards including smart snacks. looks like you are ahead of the game anticipating things. that i want to congratulate you and the state for the. and i'm wondering how you able to get to help your schools in the state to be able to achieve the goals? and then secondly, we many schools rely on the à la carte sales to supplement their budgets, and we understand tide budgets for schools but the change to healthier items doesn't seem to have impacted

your schools. so how did you help schools to achieve, and how is it you able to do that come including à la carte sales in a way that didn't hurt your schools? >> thank you for the kind comments. when we adopted the standards in 2008 right after they were released and he put together a very comprehensive implementation plan as far as bringing the schools on board, dinner, we went through a black eyes look at what else is going to with healthy younger free kids out but we use quarterly workshops. we created a listserv where we could communicate with each food service director through the internet with a push of the send button. week issued a guidance of the most. we met with principals groups. we met with superintendent groups. we did presentations before boards to get the word out and let them know just why the

standards were changing, why we're doing what we were doing and the science behind we created a website called smart foods for parents to educate parents of all the changes. so we had a very comprehensive implementation plan. and we staff at the state agency level in preparation for all the changes as well as far as grant writers and registered dietitians and things of that nature. and our automated system or have an electronic technology system, point-of-sale system that integrated throughout the entire state. they just need to know one system to our reviewers just have to monitor one system. many of the concerns that mr. lord spoke of we don't experience in west virginia because the direct certification and commuted allegedly determination is done at the state agency level. we notify the schools of that

information. our free and reduced application is online. so we've had a lot of the problems that we experience with a paper application which is basically become obsolete in west virginia. as well as a la carte, we in west virginia when children into our cafeterias to either get a unitized meal that meets a new pattern that's fully reimbursed by the federal government regardless of whether it's free, reduced price or paid. ..

>> it is very impressive what you have done. the schools don't schools don't have to refocus on that and it moves with the trial. that is something that we need to look at the cost and the paperwork for schools and families. congratulations. we have a lot of bipartisan support over the years for our summer meals program. and we want to continue that we know we need to strengthen the congregants and nontarget models. i am concerned we create more flexibility.

in michigan we have submitted a request for the waiver. unfortunately it was denied. i wonder if you might speak more about the need for flexibility in terms of the summer and what is happening in terms of communities, whether it is where children me for what has been called grab and go why this is important. >> sure. thank you for that question. in our case we serve both urban and rural. that is where the difference between the two models is most dark. the vast majority of the meals that we serve are served in jefferson county the home of louisville a place where kids, there are are plenty of sites for kids together in the summer sites with programming and activities that kids want to be a part of. it is easy.

allow them to comply with the requirement of that program. our model is based on a 3000 square-foot kitchen that we invested in to build that provides over a thousand hot meals a day. the program works well. the the need for flexibility comes in with our rural counties. frankly they just don't have the community centers facilities for kids together even if even if they did e kids are spread out many living in small communities, dispersed across the counties. in the summer they do not congregate. we would like to see the ability to work on the ground in those communities with government and business leaders to come up with

unique partnerships and innovative programs tailored to meet the specific needs of those individual counties. i think if we can have the flexibility we are talking about i am confident that we could reach many, many more of the kids in need. as i mentioned, 90 percent of the kids in the state of kentucky who are eligible don't get it because there is either no site for them to go through what they cannot get there. >> thank you very much. thanks. >> ms. miss jones cindy, thank you for your help in our traversing kansas and enjoying the school. if you were provided with some flexibility what changes would you make it back.

>> i would allow i would allow us to go back to the 50 percent whole-grain so that we are able to add some of those items back at the kids enjoy such as whole-grain biscuits do not have much flavor i don't know if any of you have tried them. crackers they taste like sawdust, some simple items come our children like chicken nuggets now with the coding on the chicken nuggets they no longer like the flavor just simple, little things that we could do. i would go back to encouraging kids to take fruits and vegetables. we keep hearing about it is just a half a cup but we have 29,000 students in our district. that is a lot of half a cup. if two thirds of those kids eat fruits and vegetables that is still 10000 that we throw away.

over a year that is 1.7 million. in our in our district we want the kids to eat the fruits and vegetables. we have unlimited fruits of a investable's. we go into schools all the time encouraging them because we want them to try their fruits and vegetables. because of the tight budgets this may be something we have to do away with. i would pay for those students to lose an opportunity because others are forced to take them and just throw them in the trash. also, i would like to be able to make the decision whether to raise the prices for males. a lot of our students are leaving the program because they can no longer afford to pay the meal price. her mother makes her choose two days a week because they

can no longer afford to pay those costs. i would costs. i would like to be able to do that. >> the whole grains champion of the senate who has a bill to exempt that standard. i will give you every opportunity to discuss that. at any rate's they're were some doing well in implementing the standards. and they seem to be the schools with resources. your testimony you mentioned reduced price districts have also overcome challenges is there a way to characterize the districts having a hard time or does it vary based

upon the individual? the reason i bring this up is that i think the distinguished senator from michigan and i tend -- you put it to rural and small-town schools, smaller schools. goodness knows they are promised a lot of things but i am not sure i am doing is exactly right. is there a way to characterize the districts that are having a hard time or does it vary based on the individual community and what they are doing? i know there has been a lot of talk about training. i'm trying to get at something. the attitude of the community or the attitude of the district or whatever but help me out. >> well, what i am seeing districts like my own have a lower amount. so a so a lot of those kids are making that choice to

bring their own lunch with your the district that they have a high free and reduced those kids pretty much or eat with their being served. i was speaking to a director from a a larger district. he said that because of the revenue that he is losing with his students he will end up in the red for the 1st time. a lot of the problem is the schools that do not have the high free and reduced, we don't have the ability to get grants available. in my district we have a centralized building to registered dietitians on staff we have to pay for all of our cost benefits. benefits. we even pay indirect cost to the district to help pay for the utilities and custodial

staff a school. little school districts usually have someone within the school. so they so they don't have all the extra cost that large districts have come of as many of them have high free and reduced. not only do they not have the expense but there are able to bring in more revenue. >> well, you have given me the exact reverse of what perhaps some of us may have. i truly appreciate. that is exactly what i was asking about. i have so many different questions here i do want to get to senator donnelly were think is next. then we have senator hoven. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i i want to thank all of you for being here. i no you are based in louisville but i want to let everyone know that there to

dare to care service washington, crawford harrison, floyd command car counties. we were grateful for that. and i wanted to talk to you about something that i no you have heard about as well the area you serve just outside scott county just to the north of where you serve. we have had a devastating hiv outbreak and drug epidemic. the county. the county also has one of the highest food insecurity rates for children in our state. i was wondering in your mind what is the best way to reach those kids? to make sure they've had enough to eat to make sure they stay in school and hopefully stay away from drugs as well. >> thank you, senator. yes, i live just down the road and wanted to no personally i share your pain with what is happening there you know, i guess i think in my mind was happening there

sort of points to the larger issue that is before the community. investing in our kids today can prevent so many issues down the road. we heard that kids who grow up in a food insecure environment are going to have all kinds of issues. as they age up they will find themselves with left -- less options for becoming productive self-sufficient members of the community. i'm certainly not an expert on drug addiction are hiv but i would have to guess that there is a close correlation between levels of food insecurity see and some of the problems that folks are facing with no alternatives to turn to. i think that the best way one of the great ways that we can better serve would be going back to the ranking member's question about flexibility to my giving us the flexibility to tailor

programs to be able to provide food to kids in rural counties where the current model and regulation may not fit so well. >> which ties in a little bit to my next question, and some of the rural areas and throughout the rest of the state and country there are pack a backpack programs on the kids -- on the weekends. i no you have to work with that also. do you think do you think we would be able to reach more food insecure children if those meals and that program were eligible for reimbursement as i no the funds come from out of sector. >> absolutely. that program in our case would dare to care that is one of the programs that we do use to reach kids of rural counties. when kids are congregated a school it is the one place we can get nutritious food to them. currently we find that program entirely with

private donations. an entirely privately funded program. but it is a great public-private partnership because we are leveraging private dollars to help address an issue that we currently cannot address with federal dollars. the answer is yes. if we could find a way to involve find a new revenue source that would allow us to provide more backpacks that would certainly have a positive impact on our ability to reach those kids. >> thank you. one of the areas of concern for me with food insecurity is the general obesity that has occurred in children and the increase in diabetes type two. and as you look at that and as we look at that going forward, what more can be done to teach about healthy eating lifestyles and how to

prevent things like diabetes type two? it can be so debilitating. >> thank you. certainly we has pediatricians are seeing the rise in type two diabetes in younger and younger children, something we never thought we would have to deal with. i think starting early with early healthy infant nutrition and transition to solid food and good feeding practices, healthy habits for families at home, start out right is essential, many of the children with severe problems and adolescents with health, type two diabetes have already by age five have had obesity. early intervention, family education stronger links with the healthcare system and food and providing information about food programs, providing education, understanding what is available would help get them off to a good start

in 2007 when we wrote the expert guidelines we considered all children at risk for obesity and have trained physicians to do preventive counseling for everyone because of this problem. >> thank you very much. thank you for your work to try to help our children and our families. >> thank you. >> thank you, chairman. thanks to all of the witnesses. you mentioned you mentioned some of the difficulties in complying with the lower sodium standards. what can we do to help that regard? [inaudible] >> sorry. we just want to make sure that we don't go forward with target to because right now we are able to get by

struggling, but able to get by with those requirements. if we go on to target to that would mean we are serving therapeutic sodium levels. there will be no flavor. i just received an email from my director letting me know that the student surveys are back from parents, and many of them say their children are no longer eating with us because there is no taste of the food. that is a big concern. if we continue it will become a larger concern. >> last year i included a provision that kept the whole grains at 50 percent rather than having 100 percent of the grain products having to be whole-grain enriched. now i have introduced legislation with senator king bipartisan legislation that would both keep us at the lower sodium level but

not go to the next target level and would continue the provision that 50% of the 50 percent of the grain products have to be whole-grain enriched. is that something you think is workable and that your state would find workable and that you think other states would find workable? >> absolutely. >> and touch on for just a minute issues as far as the competitive requirements. we we want to make sure student lunches are healthy and kids are eating them and then we also want you to be able to continue. i understand there are issues. >> right now we would be able -- we would like to be able to serve items à la carte. right now you have to look at each item. if if it is on a meal you can compare it throughout the week. it is it is much more difficult to be able to get

a night of the serve. we would like to be able to do that. it should be healthy enough to serve. >> okay. again flexibility. >> absolutely. >> thank you. i am glad to hear of your successes in terms of implementing the program. certainly flexibility does not mean a rollback of good nutrition standards but making sure we have healthy meals and that our schools are able to make their budgets. could you tell me how many of your schools of applied for an exemption? >> we do the hundred percent whole-grain rich requirement back in 2,008. the only thing that has affected our schools and plummeted across the board in schools are not having a problem, the only thing that

is really touched in west virginia as it relates to pasta certainly because we have some schools having trouble getting. >> and that. >> and that is the. in some cases whether it's pizza and tortillas were pasta we talk about whole-grain enriched it is not just the bread but these other products hence some flexibility is helpful and that's why the 50 percent whole-grain enriched, you have had -- you have quite a few schools that actually have applied for exceptions. wouldn't some flexibility be helpful? >> i cannot speak for the school. i think that when you are looking at granting waivers my fear would be that it would give industry a pause to come on board and make the products more available.

we had lots of waiver requests when we were implementing our standards as it relates to professional standards or even competitive sales. i i think if you have a good standard in the child's best interest that you hold that standard, i certainly cannot speak for state like kentucky. our participation in west virginia is the highest it has ever been breakfast participation is starting to exceed that of lunch. i think in west virginia -- and we have cooperative purchasing groups come i think we are on the right track. >> so you don't feel there needs to be any flexibility even though you have schools that have applied? >> well, i don't know the number. >> twenty-two. >> twenty-two schools out of -- we have about 700. certainly that is cause for a waiver until the product can become available.

it was my understanding it was more related to pasta. >> and i i understand in some cases it relates to pasta or tortillas. and that makes sense. healthy and and the kids will eat them. i will wrap up here. the current dietary guideline recommendations allow for refined grains as well. if we allow it in the dietary guidelines why wouldn't some flexibility in that regard make sense? >> i understand. >> thank you. thank you, mr. chairman. >> sen. stamina, senator stamina, you had additional questions. >> i do. thank you. i do. i am trying to put in perspective i realize we are making changes in the last five years.

behavior is always hard to change. the the process of everyone wanted to be more focused on health and wellness. we know sometimes change is hard. i have to say to my have visited a lot of school districts some very creative way take the vegetable and put green peppers and onion in the tacos and the kids don't even know there getting it which is great. others were government says you have to eat broccoli. so this -- so there is a different reaction depending upon how things are presented. we want to be in the creative process of that. but i wanted to ask you about specifically the exemptions for whole grains. my dear friend command i really mean that has been passionate about this.

out of thousands out of thousands of schools across the country we had only 350 requests for waivers. to put that in perspective 350 requests across the country, 900 school districts. one request in north dakota, for requests in kansas. i am wondering, have you received many requests? again, why would you believe schools were not the asking for the flexibility? >> i cannot give you the number. we have received some requests. it is my understanding that the request is for pastas because the product is not readily available for them to purchase and it had something to do with that particular product has trouble maintaining its consistency.

until more of that type product hits the market some of our schools were struggling with it. as far as the whole-grain rich requirement we have had that in place since 2,008 students are accepting of what they call the brown bread. i think it is a good standard command we just need to wait for industry to come up to speed. >> i wonder also, there are differences between larger and smaller districts and some that have the community eligibility. larger districts with a smaller number of students. again, west virginia how have you handled that with a larger district where is a smaller number of children for the economics of that? because i am sure that is different. how have you handled that in terms of districts where

virtually all of the children are qualifying for free and reduced lunch versus a a district where it may be less than 50 percent? >> as far as -- >> the economics of funding and so on. that seems to be one of the concerns. larger districts are losing money because there are fewer children being reimbursed on free and reduced lunch and other children are buying lunch. >> that is a great question and we anticipated those types of things before we implement it convenient to have community eligibility. we did our own version. and we knew that if we just if we selected nine districts and said that you now can have breakfast and lunch at no charge if we

did not fundamentally change something it was going to create the problem with their budget. we worked in conjunction with our state legislature. and what that did for one of the provisions is it realigned breakfast with the instructional day. we were offering it at the worst possible time as most schools do. the bell is ringing, buses are arriving late to my kids want to talk to their friends. friends. we have a state law that mandates the school can no longer compete. has to be offered, either breakfast in the classroom breakfast after 1st, breakfast after the bell some combination. and what it is done in conjunction with community eligibility, breakfast participation is starting to exceed that of lunch. financially speaking that is good for the programs

because the margin of profit, profit if you look at the federal reimbursement versus the cost to produce a breakfast, the margin of profit is higher plus it is the most important meal of the day. now we have the naysayers in the beginning the teachers the did not want the food in the classrooms will now go to that for the program and are promoting the program because they can see such a huge difference in test scores student competitiveness fewer trips to the school nurse fewer behavioral problems. has changed the way we are educating kids. we have one school district that districtwide, mason county their breakfast participation last year averaged almost 90 percent 90% of 90 percent of the children in that school had a breakfast on a daily basis and and that is how we have done it through the economies of scale the cost

to produce one more breakfast one additional breakfast, the cost is not that significant. the federal revenue coming in a substantial. >> thank you very much. i no my time is up. >> senator boden. >> thank you, mr. chairman. you, mr. chairman. i apologize to you and the ranking member for running back and forth. this is such an important hearing and such an important topic for arkansas and the rest of the country. i am on another subcommittee that is also very important it has to do with gangs and things like that. all of these things go together. i apologize for running back and forth. again, i no that these things are being discussed already but it is such an important thing for arkansas some are. summer meal participation has increased in recent years and is very important. we struggle to reach

children in rural areas. can you talk a little bit about the challenge that you have experienced with the meals program, and also based on your experience can you give us concrete recommendations as to what we can do to overcome some of those challenges? >> sure. we have dared to care and urban and rural counties much like yours particularly in indiana you know, the distance between the communities is so great and the communities are so small that it is very, very difficult to find locations where kids can go and congregate. unlike urban counties, there are not robust want to have robust boys and girls club with all day programming. so the challenge is how we find a way to get these kids access to summer food based

on the realities of the county in which they live? so we have looked at several different options. one of the thoughts that we have is we have -- we actually have a school bus now and are looking at the possibility of preparing meals in our community kitchen, lowering those and putting them on the bus and taking them out to rural counties and simply driving to the hollows where you'll have. letting the kids consume them. the challenge with that model under the current rules is unless the kids come unless we stop and the kids eat the meal on the bus and we count the number of children we cannot be reimbursed. the sustainability of that model is doubtful. that is the challenge that

we are facing which is why one of the things allowing us to look at it more flexibly in arkansas there were probably benefit deeply. let us look look at those and make those eligible for reimbursement as well. >> you mentioned that you started your program in 2,009. and i think that's great. i think states need the flexibility to do as they feel is best. can you tell us based on 2,009 to now what are your obesity levels? have they gone down flattened out, continue to go up? >> we adopted the standards. >> and what has happened as a result? >> our obesity rate has leveled off. i don't have the data. i do no our school environments are healthier

and west virginia. hunger and obesity live side-by-side. trying to put the finger on the corporate we have done everything in our power to provide safe and healthy to have healthy learning environments. >> and i agree. the only reason i mention it is because this really does go together with a whole host of other things. we need to address this. like i said i do not disagree that you are doing a great job in the sense of doing what you feel is best but it is i think one of the problems we run into is the feel like if we just do this or that we can solve our problem. the reality is lots of other things after school activities all of that goes together. ms. jones you mentioned in your testimony the

importance of flexibility. can you talk to us a little bit about specifically the kind of flexibility that you would like or maybe in some areas. >> sure. just like we will we talk about our all a card the fact that we had to take a healthy choice like a sub sandwich with turkey and cheese that doesn't make sense to me. it's a healthy item. we we would like to have the flexibility to put those items back on. having the decision to be able to raise the price for not that should be determined by each district what they feel there enrollment would be able to pay for. we want to be able to keep those kids in the cafeterias because we cannot serve them nutritious meals if we don't have the meeting with us. those are those are the type

of things we're wanting to look at. with the food and vegetable, we really want to encourage our kids something we have always thought was important but we do not want to lose our unlimited fruits and vegetables because we can't afford to do that anymore. >> thank you. thank you, mr. chairman. >> i apologize we have not paid more attention to you. >> i would have, if i had had more time. >> thank you. >> the typical situation. you made excellent points. the detrimental effect that has had on tension and

development, short-term memory, iq scores if they missed the boat them is the vote. i am not asking you to expound on that research. it is self-evident but but i want to let you know how much we appreciate. i am now moving to the conclusion yes, it is this afternoon thank you to each of our witnesses and to the 1st panel as well for taking your time, your very valuable time to share your views related to the child nutrition programs. these testimonies are very valuable for the community to hear and to keep on record. your thoughts and insights will be especially helpful

as we undergo the reauthorization process. to my fellow members i ask any additional questions that they may have for the record be submitted to the community, five business days from today or by 5:00 p.m. next line thursday may 14. the committee now stands adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> next week in the senate work on trade promotion authority legislation which would grant the president fast-track authority to more

quickly send to congress the transpacific partnership and transatlantic trade and investment partnership trade agreements currently being devoted. it would diverted. it would also prevent congress from making any changes to these trade pacts also possible,. also possible, work on the highway trust fund set to expire at the end of this month. the house returns on tuesday

chairing the homeland security committee and delaware's tom carper is the ranking member. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> this hearing is called to order. the title of the hearing the next evolution of terrorist recruitment. i think unfortunately that is the wrong title. it is the current evolution of terrorist recruitment. we have a panel of to have

excellent witnesses. if you are going to solve a problem you have to 1st recognize in the knowledge that reality. i think that we have a good panel. my written opening statement in the record. what i would like to do is talk a little bit about an isis message that warns of 71 trained soldiers and 15 us 15 us states, 23 signed up for missions and i will read excerpts because 1st let me say that we have no knowledge whether this is true or not. some of our witnesses would say it is blustered. this is a perfect example of what isis is trying to do and how they are trying to use social media. they are post claiming credit for the terrorist attacks in texas the attack

by the islamic state in america is only the beginning of our efforts to establish a province in the heart of our enemy. we know that the target was protected. twenty-three have signed up for missions like sunday. virginia, maryland california michigan. california, michigan. the disbelievers think that you killed someone untrained they gave their bodies in plainview because we were watching. the next six months will be interesting. let's hope not. because i am being briefed for this hearing -- by the way the reason why i call these changes i got questions. any to understand what the problems are. i am learning a lot. i like timelines. i have my staff prepare the timeline of potential terrorist plots that have

been foiled the arrests that have been made by individuals inspired by isis and other islamic terrorists you go through the list. planning to come to the us n-uppercase-letter bomb and to some ionic to have some aromatic weapons february 253 brooklyn men were arrested the former us air force veteran was arrested after failure to attempting to cross the border into syria. and army national guard specialist april 2 2 women were arrested in queens new york. april 3 philadelphia woman was arrested. april 8 this one hits a little closer to home a man from madison was arrested in chicago o'hare airport after his flight landed from turkey. april 10 john g book was

arrested and topeka after it was discovered he was preparing a car bomb. april 16 another indictment. we get a chart that was surprising. these arrests, the revelation that these things are growing in increasing in frequency another relatively shocking thing i was being briefed by staff is it true? the number of terrorist attacks and 2013 9700. one of my staff members went well but which was exactly my reaction. 11,000 individuals. 11,000 individuals killed in terrorist attacks growing by

61 percent almost 18,000. that still leaves almost 3,000 terrorist attacks and 2012 the.of this hearing is to show the danger is real. not as strong as they purport to be that they are using social media to show that they are actually stronger than they are to inspire the kind of action. they don't need too many people spewing that aid in providing that kind of inspiration. a real threat. i want to i want to thank and welcome the witnesses

for your thoughtful testimony and coming year. with. with that turn it over to the ranking member for his opening comments. >> to each of you welcome. this is an excellent panel. we look forward to asking questions of you this morning. this committee has discussed a number of viewings over the years. the threats that our country faces, the chairman, a quick look at what is going on this year but the nature of the threat has evolved significantly. i was a knew member of this committee. the most acute terrorist threats came from osama bin laden which had orchestrated large, complex attacks from remote caves in afghanistan. today bin laden is dead the core of al qaeda as we knew it has been largely dismantled. unfortunately al qaeda affiliates in yemen in africa and syria have filled the void.

at the same time knew you terror groups present an immediate and different kind of threat to the us. the tactics employed by these groups have bond. they have used social media and online propaganda moreover isis has perfected the ability to use social media to lure western recruits to syria for training. these new tactics mean we can no longer rely solely on the ability to use military force to eliminate the terrorist threat. we must in partnership with our allies abroad start

examining more closely the root causes of why westerners joined the ranks in the name of isis or al qaeda. we must we must continue to evolve our own counterterrorism tactics to address root causes and we will begin to examine the narratives put forth. also how they are being used to influence vulnerable individuals your. and we will look for comments and solutions that our government along with other governments employ to counter these group narratives and to eliminate his tool -- to fight terrorist toolbox. with that, look forward to a good conversation. >> it is the tradition of all stand and raise your right hand. do you swear the testimony are about to give away the truth, the whole truth nothing but and nothing but the truth to help you got?

thank you. be seated. the newest wave and cohort of domestic jihadists in the united states. and the foundation where i work we identified 62 individuals from news reports of public records who have tried to join isis were joined isis or the al qaeda affiliate or supported others doing so. they found cases in 19 states.

ongoing investigations and 50 states and is some obviously not public yet and do not fit any ethnic profile. bosnian americans. and this of course produces problems for law enforcement that was a very focused group. this group. this is across the united states. we found an unprecedented number of american females. typically a group of highly misogynistic individuals whose goal in life is to preclude women from having any role. yet we found about a 5th of the 62 are females. number of them are females. a very new phenomenon. a relatively young group. teenagers including teenage

girls as young as 15. the only profile 52 of the 53 individuals were active in social media downloading and sharing jihadist propaganda and directly communicating with members of isis and syria. this is a knew development in the way terrorists are recruiting. the conventional view or the cartoonish you. in fact, that's very rare. there was an al qaeda recruiter who recruited 60 many americans to go to a training camp. we also saw that in minnesota in 2,007 where they went to minneapolis but we are no longer seeing a model.

we found that none of them were physically recruited by militant operative foreign fighters. instead they recruited online or sometimes in touch via twitter with members of isis and syria. why would americans abandon a very comfortable life many come from comfortable backgrounds, intelligence, individuals why would they be attracted to isis? i think that there are three reasons. the terrible nature. secondly, isis has created the caliphate which is a powerful attraction for idealistic fundamentalist muslims. thirdly, isis is presenting itself as the vanguard to the sort of muslim army signaling the end of times basically the vanguard of a group that will usher in the

perfect true islam. just this morning i was looking up and saw a large number of americans believe we are in the end times. so isis is presenting itself as ushering in the end times which is another powerful attraction and it presents itself as a real stay with social services. that claim is not completely false. less true than presented. heroic and glamorous thing. seen people tweet on isis playing call of duty but in 3 d. a heroic aspect of this. and finally this. and finally the true level of threat. i would say the true level of the threat is not as much

a fairly serious threat to the united states. well, it is clearly a big threat to american interest so far only one syrian foreign fighter has carried out a successful attack in the west which was the frenchman who attacked the jews museum in brussels on may 242014. that does not mean the threat does not exist. related to that. of the 19 individuals we found two went to syria eight of them were killed over there. proving as much as a a launchpad for attacks and graveyard. it's dangerous. about half of the men over there are being killed and a larger sample about 600 foreign fighters that we have examined and 5 percent of the females. it's very dangerous.

so the returning foreign fighters are not the issue what is the issue? it is what we saw on sunday people inspired by isis taking up weapons. easy to acquire weapons in this country and do something with them. luckily,. luckily, it did not mature in the way that the hackers wanted to. but that is a harbinger of what we will see in the future. the real issue is not syrian foreign fighters coming back law enforcement had done a good job of tracking these folks. there's only one case where law enforcement did not recognize a particular person had gone to syria. but the returning problem is much less of an issue than the homegrown isis inspired that we saw on sunday and very little as a practical matter a practical matter that we can prevent lone wolves from doing these kind of attacks. there's a natural ceiling to what these can do.

a terrible day but it was not a national catastrophe. we have to frame the threat effectively. nothing on the scale of 911. >> our next witness is jm berger. the author of g.i. joe. >> thank you for having me. i think i would like to start by talking about the loan will threat. isis is in many ways the 1st jihadist group to try to crack the loan will formula.

people have been trying to make it work every sense. the problem with lone wolf is that is is too easy to stay generally. people are not able to get adequately motivated without having social reinforcement which defeats the purpose of being alone wolf. isis has mixed up its formula. there are a couple of reasons. the 1st day of done is different from what al qaeda did a very the threshold for entry and a pretty undiscriminating about who they include in their group relative to al qaeda it was very difficult. al qaeda was the vanguard elitist movement. that affords them access to more people. secondly it is extremely violent and also very

focused on presenting a group relative trying to convince people that we have the right idea reasonable people would agree with us that this is the correct thing to do. isis does not care about that so much. the 3rd element of change is that isis has changed the fundamental underlying assumption that we see in the jihadist argument muslims are weak and they are unable to stand up to regimes in the region as

well as -- and the reason is because the west was behind them. the idea behind al qaeda and using terrorism is a tactic was that this is the tool. we have to degrade the popular support in the united states for apostate regimes in the middle east and that the united states. they have skipped ahead of fighting directly. propaganda emphasizes this. taking the fight to the local regimes and attacking the united states in a secondary way. the messages that we are winners and you should join us because we are strong. all of this is part of a very complex set of problems a time of broad social change. people have been talking on social media for a number of years. awesome -- often and if use of terms.

this is the 1st manifestation of how that really is going to work. self select the release of information received tribute he can find other people who are interested in that easily and quickly this is very different from the 1950s. a radical jihadists living in. in. you may go your whole life without meaning anyone who share your views. today it takes you ten minutes. and that is a key part of what isis does it provides a social context reinforcement, personal validation of your beliefs. if you're going to act out they offer you a degree of fame you would not achieve is a mass shooter. and it is reciprocal.

there is a sense of remote intimacy it can be hard to appreciate if you do not use a lot. when you talk to someone on a social media platform you feel like you know them they are someone in your life. and so someone tweeting syria can develop a very emotionally powerful relationship with somebody sitting in the united states ..

i think it's probably a question of resources. and, of course, the problems we face is that nobody can agree how to use those resources. our efforts at countering any preventive would have a lot of problems that are inherent to them come and we also the problem from a law enforcement perspective is your modern and 60 or 100 people. it takes 500 people to do that to monitor these people even on a partial basis little 24 hours a day. if these guys jump in a car and drive to texas does not a lot to did intersect that. i'll say most of the rest of my thoughts for the q&a. i did want to talk about the

prospect of isis organizational terrorist attacks your ice is has money and manpower to spare. we have not seen they have an intent to carry out a 9/11 style attack. there's reason to think they might not be as skilled or competent in such an attempt as al-qaeda was because of the training cycles they use. i think we should not assume that that's something that couldn't happen the. that they could make an attempt i think we're much better prepared to put something on that today. i don't think isis is an existential threat but you think we have to have realistic expectations about what they might view so that when something happens we don't overreact in fear. thank you. >> thank you, mr. herger. our next witness is mubin shaikh. mr. shaikh is a former muslim extremist an expert on radicalization, terrorism and countering and violent extremism. he's consoled on the topic of

isis with you as special operations command, u.s. special operations command center man, native, interpol and other agencies. first of all, richard shea, i appreciate and thank you for having a change of heart after 9/11 and for all the help and support you have given this government in terms of trying to counteract this and also trying to help other young people who might be conspired, not be inspired looking forward to your testimony, mr. shaikh. >> thank you sir. shalom come integrating of jesus christ, peace and he. on september 11 2100 striving to work when i first heard a plane had struck one of the two towers of the world trade center buildings. i exclaimed god is great. my celebratory moment was quickly me when i asked myself what if the dirt office building i was working in a similar struck by a plane? i would've perished on the nose

just as those innocent people did on that day. for me it was for all intents and purposes to begin at the end of my commitment to the extremist mindset. allow me explain how this became a star and raised in toronto canada. roles the voice separate from processing and wooden benches rocking back and forth reciting the koran in arabic for afghanistan and word of what beats in greater contrast that with my my daily life i think in a public group which is a complete opposite of the rigid fundamentalist manner of education. here i could actually talk to grow up and have a normal functional relationship it when i left a koran school at age 12 and move into middle school and high school i was escorted against them bullied or anything of the like. i was one of the cool kids. but when i was 17 i had a house party while my parents were a way which my hyper conservative

of kolt walker. as normal as it may become my oakland of the founding members were incensed i would've brought non-muslim friends to him and he spent the next few days braving the what i didn't do to assisting guilt trip i received and what i thought i could make amends with my family was to quote-unquote get religious. hence the born-again. i went and troubled india-pakistan and in the latter incident in a place which unbeknownst to me at the time was% of the talibans and other group known as delicate as a walk around every i chanced upon 10 heavily armed men dressed in black turbans come flowing robes and sandals. would've been said to me that if you truly wish to bring about global change they can all be done by using this at held aloft his ak-47. i was completely enamored by them as jihad heroes consistent theme in jihadi literature in the today. i absorb myself in proclaiming that jihad was deliberate to change things. when osama bin laden gave a

fatwa in 1998 i was on the border then 9/11 happened and i thought i'd get attacking combatants come but office buildings, malls and secluded, i realized i needed to study the religion probably to make sense of what i just witnessed. isil by the lungs and into syria in early 2200 a semblance of normality in the country. i did the class of an islamic scholar who chose the online reviews. subscript then you'd have studied the verses of the koran and traditions of the prophet that that jihad is used to justify their hate and destruction. i came to relinquish my views completely and returned to canada in 2004. that year some individuals have been arrested in the uk with the london fertilizer bomb plot. one of those individuals was none other than my classmate that i attended as a child. i thought this could be mistaken contacted the intelligence service to give a character reference to it was too late for

him to answer but i was recruited by the service as an undercover operative because i felt this was my religious duty. i can second that the several infiltration operation both online and on the ground involving religious extremist at one of those cases moved on to become a criminal investigation and i traversed from intelligence service to the mounted police integrated national security enforcement team in what became known as toronto 18 terrorism prosecution. i gave fact witness testimony and five hearings over four years at the superior court were 11 individuals were eventually convicted. i have since worked with various mechanisms of the u.s. government as you noted the national characters and center homeland security office of civil rights and civil liberties, and u.s. department of state center for strategic characters intimidation, three in outfits that are engaged in the study and practice of counter and violence extremism program to i spent the past two years on twitter have you watched the phenomenon and directly observed recruitment propaganda by isis tax online

and to reference the appendix a of the membership. i've. i've directly engage with many of them meet -- male and female, as well as some of the victims that tried to recruit my approach is to show how wrong they are in to criticize and delegitimize them from the islamic sources they misquote and mutilate. the correct term to describe these kids is -- a technical islamic term. i intervene in cases of an american girl at the predators were trying to lure away and put a stop to it by engaging her online as someone who can shoulder the real interpretation of islam. deduces i believe that a good extent of what is happening in terms of recruitment and what needs to be the entrance of counter messaging both from the civic service and ngo site as well as the military side of psychological operations. which i configured a recent conference in new york in which the commanding general himself was present. finally the remains a massive gap in all the areas i mentioned

and i sustainable meaningful and effective counter messaging approach needs to be created. i submit to you that it is not as hard as some may suggest that we already have the talent but just the direction and guidance in order to get it going. just three quick points on some question on terrorism equipment in prisons. number one terrorist recruitment in prisons is happening all over the world. not just in the u.s. but as for the u.s. the numbers are actually very low. number to come in a in the western context much of his recruiting remains unseen to the untrained eye it also did his covert nature and julie does not manifest openly in the present institution afterwards when individual has left the facility. number three greater vetting of the types of imams that offer counseling as needed to ensure that prosocial messages is delivered in the context of prisoner validation program. by framing this under prosocial messaging estate avoid having to click which a version of islam they approve of since all

approved of anything that promotes healthy productive and rehabilitative components of counseling. i thank the committee and my colleagues with me and hope this is a start of a solid discussion in dealing with the challenges and opportunities now before us. thank you and god bless. >> thank you mr. shea. our next witness is turn 12. am i pronouncing that even close? >> that's correct. >> wow, that's very unusual by the way. mr. gartenstein-ross is a senior fellow at the foundation for defense of democracies am an adjunct assistant professor at georgetown university's security studies program, lecture at the catholic university american off a report homegrown terrorists in the u.s. and uk. mr. gartenstein-ross. >> senator johnson, senator carper, members it's an honor to appear before you today. what i'm going to focus on in this testimony is a question of what has the u.s. done, what can the u.s. will be encountering this violent messaging. with respect to isis which i

think right now is rightly% of our of our concerns we've seen the most dramatic brand rise up in jihad is organization in large part because of the recent j. m. berger lays out but there excellent at messaging technically they go far beyond what al-qaeda and others have done any take advantage of web 2.0 computer active video dinner at which the maximum to a salon a part of that group. they are vulnerable so it's not inevitable to the most dramatic brand reversal of any jihad is organization we've seen. you might've noticed that at times i is messaging and the u.s. counter messaging have been exactly the same. often the u.s. much of the islamic states brutality, people that they're telling, people that tortured and islamic state proudly proclaims the same thing. the reason why is what they have fundamentally is a winner is messaging. to them is not bad to show that they are good because the

brutality shows that they're stronger than other groups, that they can impose their will. they are very recently the islamic state is increasing pressure on the particularly been concerned about the pressure being put on mosul. race to dubai a supporter which was very insightful as people in islamic state health cities not to show the brutality of the islamic state in any strict not to show, for example bombing to kill civilians could not to show the impact of the siege of on the cities. his argument was islamic state in its messaging will show the brutality of its those but that brutality is always connected to punishment. in other words they want to show that they can deal with their problems. that's what a wondrous messaging is. they emphasize their strengths. they don't want to emphasize what district the reason why we know they are vulnerable to a brand reversal is because we've seen that before with exact same organization. back in 2005 united very similar dynamic. not identical but very similar

with al-qaeda and iraq which is of course isis predecessor to al-qaeda in iraq was known for its brutality, it shocked people with its videos with it had the victims and it was thought of as a romantic organization. people wanted to bring this period in the near -- tamir had surpassed osama bin laden as the leading figure. but what happened then? we remember of course 2007-2009 they overplayed their hand to particularly in anbar province were right now they're in the process of inflicting similar although the greater brutality upon the population to use a grassroots uprising known as the awakening and combined with two other factors come a surge of u.s. troops in iraq and also u.s. counterinsurgency tactics. this ended up defeating al-qaeda in iraq at the time. gillibrand went from being skyhigh is only the entire

al-qaeda organization wondering what could they do to undo the damage that had been done by the losses in iraq this was a brand reversal because what had once been a symbol of strength, their brutality, was reversed into a symbol of having overplayed their hands and turn the population against them. with respect to isis it's experiencing a trajectory of losses. it's been in a somewhat decline phase since october of last year. it has lost territory rather than gaining it and as a result you start to emphasize of the ways in which their strumpet one particularly as an expansion into africa which very clearly is at the center of their current strategy. at times they exaggerated their gains and did get an immediate to report honestly i think the best example is the claim to have controlled the city in northern libya. this is not true never been true but they got an immediate to report it through multiple outlets including bbc and cnn. the reason what is there able to

show a photo of an islamic state flag on a government by the -- building and there able to show a video of a parade with islamic state support. this is the safest controlled by multiple factions. the fact that have a show of force or flag on a government building is not determinative. it does not need to control the city. this was reported and you have this cycle of which the islamic state pushes out its message. this message goes to immediate message goes to needed any coast of its supporters and at fort hood sometimes the media pushes back the same message to supporter. rather than -- having to convince themselves the islamic states message is true and objective media is wrong instead of a report on the exaggeration. there able to do this in areas where social media's penetration is low so the fact supreme court are the only relevant factor what can the united states do? how can the united states reverse this messaging of strength? one thing we have to fundamentally be able to do is

to compete at the speed of social media. you are all in government come to understand that our bureaucratic processes would often be hard-pressed to compete at the seed this next bit of the gutenberg bible. we need to the -- i think in this particular case dealing with the islamic state is for java and did with jihad is messaging as a whole because as i've outlined it has a particular vulnerability that other javascript don't miss the show have. but in this case what would be effective is a small cell phones and to operate matthews intelligence analysts from those are able to see what is the islamic state messaging, one of helping taking and where does it not back with rail the? the u.s. government has not always the best avoid. often at this voice may be to push information out to media fact sheets, selectively declassify information and giving them information with a concert as the objective voice

the district if you get them reliable information. right now i know from interact with me this is often not being done. often journalists whether print or broadcast by hearing it from me for the first time as a post doing it from the u.s. government. given that media at the battle of perception is so central to what the islamic state is trying to do, the u.s. can has to be more quick to react and to understand the strength of its messaging and to be able to respond at the same kind of speed focusing in on the key message of the islamic state at the same speed at which they can push out their own message. over all defeating the islamic states message and does not defeat jihadism. this is an important point for a variety of reasons and for the more i can say i'm an optimistic note i do see some promising signs within government that we're certain to shift towards a paradigm of trying to diffuse the procession of the islamic state strength but it's worth following up to make sure we're taking the appropriate steps

under the senate i think and played a major role. thank you all. >> thank you, mr. gartenstein-ross. we may not have that rapid communication response capability of the federal government but most elected officials concert can't think of particularly presidential campaigns have that within the political world come a rapid response. maybe that would be a good low piece of legislation with the post as a rapid response communication team when we pull from campaigns. trust me, we've got those capable individuals within our knowledge base. i would like to talk about the online process. i'd like to ask questions. isis is using social media to connect and to talk and by the way, out like to enter into the record without objection the webpages provided by minister shaikh. if you haven't read them region. it's pretty awful in terms of examples of how i was using social media.

but what's the next act that? maybe mr. berger, whoever is more expert at talking about this. they recruit, talk talk online and in what happens? >> so there is a series of stages that you go through with this. typically some is exposed to the propaganda that is being broadcast out. they take an interest in this business and just isis. this is how social media works general social media works generally pretty find a subject can't be taken interest him when you start following it online you see that there are other people talking about the same subject and you start conversing with them. so what we will typically see if they would be a period where somebody is consuming the stuff in the public, and if someone is seriously interested and willing to take steps further, or consider it a step further able to get to a private format. so that can be direct message on twitter which can be right in the open source, or on facebook.

more often bill go through an encrypted app such as what's athwartship which allows you to basically text messaging with an element of encryption. >> our others can follow the open source of social amoeba the minute those individual racers about it go off-line, we could barbara windsor capability of following that and we will have no idea companies that basically correct? >> you can approach it with sabine and other authorities. slung it is possible -- >> if we can't decrypt. that's part of the problem, and silicon valley is resistant to ask you decrypt and even if it were to allow it to would be other sites offshore that will also pashtun we lose our capability to be able to follow this. >> i would also add the ability of government to follow put on open social media is often murky. people of different agencies have different understand of

what they are legally bound do it comes to marketing communications of americans, even on open social media platforms and that somewhere where governmentwide initiative in the very helpful. >> in my prep apparently a publication where your best guess was that are 46,000 i think these are your words, overt isis supporter accounts on twitter. maybe high as the number of 90,000 can you describe what your talking about? >> that figure was from late last year so it's much smaller now. significantly smaller. >> what is the? >> is twitter have started aggressively suspending accounts. and covert isis isis supportive of the criteria we use used for the paper was about the person can we have a series of steps. if you're like tweeting isotopic and and i love isis all day long, then you you are an ice to support the your not doing that they would look at who you follow and then who followed you and sort of analyze the network to try to see if there was a

clear case. it was a very conservative approach to coding someone as a supporter. fun in a cell who was not actively trying to conceal their interest in isis. >> mr. shaikh someone who's trying to prevent young girls for example, or other people who are making those connections, where are they going now? is there alternatives? >> they will remain in the orbit of their particular networks. what to do is engage in open and directly online. i think others try to do that as well. in fact, your same people even on the al-qaeda side strangely argument against isis making theological our church which is kind of strange considering they are al-qaeda. but to continue to forward to the networks. those who do go off into what's app, i don't fall them off-line into that but that is what they do. >> to our officials that he is

government going into muslim communities, talking. one of the reports we got back and i was very surprised if this is because of the revelations of edward snowden that this seems to be a perception in america that federal government knows all and with perfect knowledge coming up exactly who's online. we know exactly who's on these sites and is becoming radicalized. the members of those communities were very surprised that we had no idea. can you speak to that, mr. shaikh come in terms of a necessity of members of different communities to be policing themselves and reporting that from dhs "if you see something, say something." >> i think hollywood has condemned this as well, given the idea that the intelligence services are on omnipresence and all-knowing. maybe in some cases it's a good thing that people think that we can see everything. of the course on the other hand

this is something that the government agencies are trying to achieve, get into the communities and give them something by which they can actually convince their own communities outside of law enforcement and these are things you need to watch for. these are your kids being lured over by these individuals to these are your parents are going to end up in front of tv cameras as they attend court or whatever it is the designer mosques that are going to see press of retaliatory attacks and things like that. it's an ongoing challenge with communities to visit level of mistrust and there's professional naysayers community organizations they're that are trying to obstruct efforts obstructionists in the way they approach this, but this is an issue that is continuing, continues to play out. >> my final question really springs from a very interesting article written by graham wouldn't in the atlantic and i think amplified by your

testimony the significance of territory held at the caliphate established and now that is driving the process driving the narrative. perhaps you would like to talk about, mr. bergen. >> i think the short edge if that's completely true. without the territory a claim to be the caliphate come if we don't control population, if you don't control territory the size of no the kingdom roughly you claim to be the caliphate disappeared which has an important strategic application which is we need to keep chipping away or demolishing this caliphate. >> but again what does that, what does that inspired in the minds come in the heart of the followers? what is the call? what is required once the caliphate is established? >> i think the call and this is where it gets complicated and goes over to what others are talking about to some fundamentalist muslims that make you want to go and just be

supported. that doesn't assume you want to going to come a fighter for isis. so i think as a matter for law enforcement community and congress to think about, if someone is not actually indicted for potential act of terrorism but before trying to go to syria we should be thinking about our friends that are not 15 years in prison. right now the problem that muslim families have his they see a son or daughter radicalized and they said should be called the fbi? been a son or daughter make it 15 years in prison. i think we should think about come in minneapolis as you know there is a case where something other than a long-term prison term for a 19 year-old young man is now in process. i think it's a model we should be thinking about going forward. >> before i turn over to the ranking member does anybody else want to respond to the? >> i think this also speaks to what was mentioned, the debate between al-qaeda and isis supporters online. the reason why al-qaeda had never declared the caliphate is

because they didn't think that they could create something that would have stained carpets at the caliphate gets chipped away geographically, you will see much more within the jihadists circles people attacking the decision to declare the caliphate in the first place which is one reason why as i said they are susceptible to a friend reversal because jihadists themselves basel, switzerland, and they start if they start to lose the territorial advantage. about what is required, for somebody believes that the caliphate has been legitimately declared, if they don't accept the caliphate's authority then they died in a state of sin. this is also gets to where the interest is to be said with its legitimate caliphate. but for people who supported as is outlined they can anything from going over there and living in the caliphate, for those who are not able to do so are those who are more well situated to carry out attacks doing so at the homefront. that's also one reason they have been so successful compared to other organizations in had a

prompt action to get a lot of things going for them right now that make them act associate from a position of strength and within their very small target audience, from a position of religious legitimacy. >> one of the goals would be to deny them that territory can deny them the caliphate? >> i think so, yes. and also to make sure that those losses are being broadcast because it has finished being broadcast to multiple actors according civil society activist. essentially as we improve our communications capabilities one thing it does is allows those who are opposed to isis to have a better vehicle to attack crisis with. >> i apologize to committee never support over 10 i thought that was important to senator carper. >> again thank you. thank you all for your testimony, for your responses to questions. mr. berger, i think he used the word murky in your comments to

describe i think the authority with which our officials have to do certain actions. go back and you mentioned this again, let's review this for a moment. >> fundamentally i don't think there's a consensus in government that you can do large-scale monitoring of social media, open social media, other american citizens without probable cause to investigate the role that we see social media and a lot of cases we have seen some plots and people intended to travel to were detected in social media. more often we see social pashtun social media provides an evidence got to go and rest a few have identified a suspect. fundamentally, for instance there are questions about how we collect and archive this data into we collect and archive on a. need another reason to go after it or can we sweep and thousand of accounts. indicates that garland, for instance, if we been squeezing

off those accounts would have much clear idea of attractive radicalization for the suspect in open-source. you can go after the stuff with subpoenas. you can try and keep the data but when twitter suspend an account and when other platforms suspend an account that information is no longer available. we don't have that available to us in the open-source to talk about that. and it don't know if law-enforcement had that available, if they've been archiving it if the access to it via subpoena, i'm not entirely sure. so these are kind of questions i don't, i think the -- so these are the kinds of things i think that are in play. and then we go from agency to agency there's different kinds

about issues that we run into over the course of some. i mean several years ago the issues in terms of like military investigating americans who were in al-qaeda in pakistan and in afghanistan, the three intelligence sometimes had to take names out of documents because the privileges that we afford american citizens in different contexts are sometimes not totally clear how you reconcile that with a pragmatic approach. >> thank you. related question come is more visually before therefore, antigen for mr. berger, is a more advantageous do you think for us to work with us, to work with companies to shut down social media accounts that promote isis or like-minded messaging or to keep those accounts open for intelligence purposes? mr. gartenstein-ross. >> jms done some good work on -- >> j. m. berger? >> yes. j. m. berger since a very good

work on showing the disruptive impact that the district is a very big debate amongst analysts as to what he said these accounts down because on the one hand you have the ability to radicalized people to action. on the other hand, you have the ability to gather information on think i think increasingly that debate is actually becoming settled. because we can see with isis a massive impact of these accounts have had. the amount of people have been drawn to the syria-iraq theater is greater already done it was during the afghan soviet war in terms of the number of foreign fighters to convert social media plays a big part into. i think in general it is advantageous to shut these accounts down. at this is something should actually is something should actually be a company to seek to use government has the authority to do that. with one exception which is a jihadists get frustrated to having their accounts suspended they may create their own website, their own version of twitter or facebook at which point our superiority in terms

of technological capabilities by several. that's the kind of site we could shut down wholesale i think without any sort of free speech of constitutional problems. >> very briefly on this question, i have one more. >> i do think there is utility and shutting them down. i mean the intelligence argument is important, but ultimately the goal of intelligence is to stop terrorists from doing whatever they want to us. you take that into the context of an attack, you get a lot of intelligence if pictures successfully carried out an attack. in the same way in a lower scale i think we shouldn't give them carte blanche to do whatever they want because it allows us to make nice charts. >> this will be a question for all of the panelists are i like to focus on root causes not just on symptoms or problems but addressing the underlying root causes. what are the root causes or underlying causes that can help

americans to engage in violence in the name of jihad and what common factors these individuals share? >> it's a tough one. i have looked at hundreds of cases of americans have been sort of talk to jihad activity and that is the ethnic profile. it is no, some of these people on average tend to be slightly better educated than most americans. they tend to not but on the other hand, you criminal background. it's very hard to make a one size fits all description. in another era in the 19 studies perhaps these people might have been going to the underground or the black panthers. we've seen that throughout history. but it is a really good answer to the question. it's a form of what draws people to crime? the answers to complicated to say in a very quick and soundbite way.

>> thank you. mr. berger? >> i would agree with that. i think what we see there are clusters of causality. so you can see, for instance and al-shabaab recruiting in minnesota you can quantify why that happened and why there were so many from minnesota to you can look at pounds, for instance, what annuitization has a long history that teach you some insight into why that group of people but when you look at to sort of generalized, it's very difficult. who you know is probably the most important thing and that's what the social media comes in. in. if you do know some in isis are easily online and in the present greater risk. >> thank you. mubin shaikh and then mr. gartenstein-ross and then i would yield my time spent of course i share the same caveat of the complexity but i will give a soundbite version. without grievances ideology doesn't resonate and without ideology, grievances are not active on.

i think the intersecting ideology and grievances to play significant role in this. >> all right, thank you. >> i think mubin articulates it very well. let me focus on one thing related to this question, which is what came the u.s. do? we are -- >> that's always a good question. >> ideas catch on much faster whether they're good ideas were bad ideas. it's easier to achieve a critical mass and the complaint off of as mubin said grievances and ideology to intersect together. the questions what we can do in the great grievances? to some extent that's hard. we live in a world that is a perfect justice at all and whether the world of finance resources and competition. but even with what countries are doing, that that is corporation in a cisco those who are prospering are crucially transparent in terms of their decision-making in terms of what they are doing. for companies that are much more legacy into shootout companies

and floundering are less transparent and much more top heavy. in many ways the u.s. government looks like the legacy edition. one thing to do is there are many representatives who are good at this. is a much more transparent in terms of u.s. decision-making. there's a lot of hard choices to make. j. m. berger outlined before the our decision in terms of monitoring americans use of social media. on the when and we understand that people who are on twitter and radicalize can pose a danger, but on it and we think of the fbi sweeping of thousands and thousands of accounts and archiving them for ever that in many ways feels like 1984 by george orwell. thinking these through publicly come explained decisions i think it also help defuse part of that grievance because moving forward we are in a world where grievances whether real or imagined can catch on quickly produce should think of what it can do 10 this structure documentation to minimize the use been a target. >> good. thank you all.

>> by the way i was handed a note. our boat has been moved to 2:00 so we won't have any interruptions. senator sasse. >> thank you, mr. chairman thank you all of you for being you. after reading the testimony my main line of questioning was going to be about how you could strategic brand damage to isolate anti-future jihadi groups but before we go to our life have a detour and follow, mr. gartenstein-ross, your comments about the interplay between traditional and social media and, obviously the media cycles of people wanting to make news today on social needed to be picked up by produce on traditional media, could you unpack the more your comments? >> absolutely. it was a case of which you didn't have much social media penetration. the right-of-way when you look at what's being broadcast out isis the social start out with information about mr. that's because reporters really couldn't get into to fact check. we've had to give assessment

reports have entered into that template much of the most censored borders and tunisian olympians have gotten execute within the past couple of weeks. not a good place to get fact-checking. and so when they had this information about what's happening into pushing it out and others are pushing out on social media the way the news cycle works now, here's information and is now competing information and maybe you'll check with a few sources but media was much quicker than they can much less fact checking or exceeded to get and invented facts out there and didn't have it widely repeated which i think is exactly what happened. >> this is not just because i don't know how cnn covered the issue but could you walk us through how the decisions and circumstances like that are made? >> i'm not familiar enough with cnn's reporting on the. as a general matter, cnn has got a very careful fact checking process. >> but you don't know if you all reported that isis had taken

that came? >> i'm not here to comment on cnn's reporting on. >> okay. mr. gartenstein-ross one of the things that is unique about isil versus al-qaeda in iraq greatest is obviously a more decentralized networked structure as opposed to a more top down structure obviously that creates unique opportunities for them to capture onto bruno activity on social media. at the same time it seems harder for them to control their brand. they have a deficit in terms of trying to a territorial claim with the caliphate but to the degree that a more decentralized structure and can export social media over time, do you think that means their brand becomes defuse, or if they can suffer losses because they will eventually suffer territorial losses, what does that due to the larger social media strategy? >> i conceptually for them

having centralized and also decentralized structure under wanted to have a bureaucratic system, governance, official accounts. and you have a vast number of people who are fighters, were tweeting from the battlefield. they have put directives in place that's very clear to try to rein some of these guys in but at the end of the day when you have a large number of people who are on twitter it's difficult to fully confirm message. that's something the u.s. boucher also grapples with as well. just like places where directives of the we have a better can we have an easy job of reining our guys and, obviously. with respect to isis brand. i think it has a trajectory of its brand overall has been effected by people in multiple layers to those who are at the central to communications address and those on the fringes. the answer is yes it has more difficulty controlling its brand especially because, i referenced before al-shabaab, the support

of isis who was kind of okay don't broadcast the enemies across don't broadcast how hard life is in cities that are under siege the only broadcast strength. that's actually come you look at my argument that there is a windows message, that's a very hard message to enforce when it's not actually what's going on. you don't just have isis fighters did you also people who are living in the cities. you can see some resistance moving has sprung up. they will have a hard time keeping their message at the same just like we have trouble controlling them on social media. they are increasingly as they are entrenched in a coming forth and fit governing for they are having the same trouble. suddenly there they count insurgents and their experiencing something like insurgent activity. i do want to overstate dissension in the race but you can't have it. they've had this for a while but it's just been increasing now. >> mr. shaikh, i'd be interested in your thoughts on that question. >> thank you sir.

of course, i agree very much of course with what mubin was assigned to i think we need to continue to amplify the mistakes they made with the weakest and the ranks can the dissension in the ranks especially comes to educating potential recruits come individual teenagers who may want to travel. inin the beginning when a lot of this begin there was a concept called five star jihad where they were putting out they've taken over some guys build endurance swimming in a nice pool in the back endorsing hey come on down. for a while i actually took a lot of screen grabs of food pictures they post it. the swedish gummy bears. we guys posting kebabs yeah we've got better or and make a milkshake announcing how could i not take a picture of that? or the epitome of an identity crisis we have a pakistani

ethnicity, uk resident living in city referring to pizza as home-cooked food. so i think to educate people just by using their own mistakes, their own failings this is another way in which we can achieve our objective. >> thank you. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thanks, senator sasse. so senator peters. >> thank you, mr. chairman and thank you to the palace for your testimony today. i want to explore a little bit more in depth about some of the counter messaging that we need to do, particularly with the broader muslim community here in the united states and i think it's important to remember when we're talking about folks who are engaged in these activities with extremism it's just a tiny tiny sliver of the muslim community in the united states. i have a very large middle eastern population in michigan one of the largest outside the middle east as you note in my community and it certainly is an opportunity for us to harness that community which is strongly

opposed to isis and other extremist groups. the our regular protests against the activities of isis as a perversion of islam and not reflective of broader muslim community, folks want to be engaged in that counter messaging which is the ultimate is the way to try to legitimize the ideology associate with it. kind of the white house has made this type of averaged a priority with her empower local partners to prevent a violent extremism efforts. is also a part of a summit on countering violent extremism this year at the white house so much. but the 2013 rand corporation report highlights challenges to countering violent extremism online including in the nation and lack of trust in u.s. approach to counterterrorism among american muslims as well as the over securitized approach to government engagement with the muslim community. i've heard from some of my constituents who are concerned about pushing back sometimes against this violent extremism and its allies online because they think it might draw some

undue attention to them personally as they engage even though these are anti-messaging that they are doing. ..

>> >> as just an excuse. given that love all of mistrust there is a way to do it. is the muslim community understands it wants nothing to do with the isis. would get europe and north america we have a maximum amount that is a very small amount of people. first and foremost, the muslim community needs to understand it affects us first and foremost, for a isis for the muslims and non

muslims when it leads to discrimination in march and is stationed. and on behalf of the religion. to speak up to give a correct understanding to lead by example. there is a way to still work with law enforcement but at the same time, its use programming that is developed in-house, in the community where the law enforcement agencies understand that they have the identifying vulnerable person to understand there is of mechanism in place for programming without being a the top down approach. people have their views of free-speech but the litany is careful not to perpetuate the isis ideology if we said

muslims are terrorists is on his all terrorism that is exactly what the isis does. people were anti-muslim they use the exact same first in the caribbean the isis' uses a view did not see the name you would swear it was the isis' account. there are multiple layers with ink and help with community leadership. >> and direction from within the community it is the organic process that the law enforcement understand let the community lead to back up and back off. >> but though local police are best suited because they're the ones who responded there is a rock thrown or there is a crime

they are seen as investigating terrorism like the fbi. there is no way to develop those relationships. >> anybody else? >> just a of a few examples even though it is bad speech but of american muslim lawyer who trains leaders who don't understand how the internet works how to use it themselves. that is one very concrete things. that this thinking is an example of something that is concrete. also to aggregate all satirical content in arabic online.

and finally for the u.s. government with a theological debate for obvious reasons but the government's message should read it positions itself as a defender of islam but the victims are overwhelmingly muslim and requires no special all knowledge handed is undercutting for what the group tries to say about themselves to the muslim world. >> senator? >> i will jump right in. prior to the hearing was surprised at how we are approaching our messaging and counter messaging frankly. i find clearly 2.nine muslims in the united states and half of them are under 30 with the very young population. i agree with senator peters over whelming 99% reflecting

the rest of the population but we deal with a population of young people better online and engaged in the extraordinary manner and you have a greater percentage of those better under 30 years old 90 percent of americans use social media. and they watch on-line video and almost half get their news. i know little about social media but when i start to go around to the sites that we have in our various agencies and i was shocked at what we we're doing. i want to pass the ipad around to my colleagues. toggle between the two video with hundreds of hours going up every minute in the

videos they are doing are slick and fancy and attractive if you are getting things out to kids if you toggle back to the united states and what we do is much of it turned away website from the department of state. if you know, about social media will get the engagement and it is laughable. three or two reach weeks. this clear 13 -- fiscal year 13 we spent 96 million on voice of america. this is old school media. radio. how much are we investing for social media counter messaging?

>> they know specifically budget out social media us separately but it is a small percentage of what is being done and a lot of times what we pushout through social media is very crude. >> that is a generous statement. musec we need to compete at the speed of social media. and you said in your written testimony what unifies them is their age and online. you would think if this is one of the threats we ask the counterterrorism concern of domestic loan wolf individuals this is where the majority are getting radicalized online with social media and if we happen adequate response it is very frustrating.

mr. shaikh your work is incredible icu trying to push back. i know there are tactics how to get more voice to messaging the we are not using that as a government. you talk about the means to get the means to go fibril will get there fancy means compared to what we are not doing. work mr. shaikh it looks like you are trying to do counter messaging but we as a government spending millions and millions of dollars on oil school forms of media and very cruz social media efforts. what a dealer mentioned could be done if we had the effective social media online messaging effort? back.

>> as some type of defense there is a very small group of people that are trying to protect this space and do something. i get that. crude is very polite. but that the end of the dade to fight a back against 15 year-old kids you have to work with a 15 year-old kids. own kids is showing examples of what affects them and what resonates it tells me this is exactly what you need to do. talk to the kids. with respect to producing material, i feel is unacceptable especially with hollywood. 90 bin that level but you blow the production in capabilities out of the water.

but even in high school kids given projects as part of base of making major process. even the ngos who could find a project within the community. the government is now well placed other than of a goes to the psychological operations in you have individuals that influenced activities. multiple layers. >> i have little time left but when i was mayor of new york resawed the dimensions of our city were incredibly negative. we set out on social media to see if that began to change the brand. you talk about crowding out the negative messages. i have seen people do this

in many different forms and strategies. how would you categorize what we are doing? and the american muslim -- to compete with this space? is there a better way to centralize and coordinates a better push for the united states? >> it has been doing some of the work but there is a kiss of death problem so it has to be hands off. we don't want to all doom and gloom. >> thank you very much. >> there is an obvious piece of legislation we need to start working on but we invented the social network

sites we have hollywood and the ability to blow them out of the water with communication and. we need to work on that quickly. >> we appreciate your comments. it makes sense it is in just a government function because government is not particularly well at the updated use of technology so engaging the private sector and others to help us do that and we can provide this support to establish the of partnerships to make that happen. i was very interested in your testimony about women kerosenes to be an attraction for young women they are recruiting with

more of a historical basis to isis. we'll talk to me about that. it seems looking at social media they almost romanticize what is happening in direct and syria or touche connect themselves in the u.s. or in another western country with isis. the more we can get the truth out with reporters or really the conditions i know is challenging but what is really happening that this is not a romantic endeavor that you asked to engage in and and how do we address

this? >> that's right. about 10 percent is the unprecedented so they could meet the perfect marriage partner. the average age is 19 you are right to. those who are the disillusioned former of militants to amplify their voices. so people are already coming back when people started to use say it isn't the promised land but it took to were three years. but we are at the point where that is a reasonable idea.

>> when we try to undermine that messaging for what it does undermine that is mostly eyewitness testimony that is not as compelling as photographs or video or audio. so what i posted is to get pictures of intercepted communication that is much more gripping and compelling because radicals are already convinced they have great ideas anyway. >> there is a wonderful sight wednesday's twitter feet that shows the bread lines the electricity is only on three hours the day. so it doesn't portray what is really happening that we should know about. >> and we should promote

that to see what is really happening because there is that the you that is pushed out. i want to get your thoughts on though leader of isis and using social media and information to put out a certain image of himself that does not line up with the truth. when is your thought on the leader? he seems to have portrayed himself in a certain way and what about us trying to undermine the leadership they're not really who they purport to be? >> he is an interesting figure he is the empty suit

and has a basic biography to support the legitimacy we know a little bit more about him through independent reporting but the image that he projects is somebody who of peers rarely and as such you can bring your expectations to who he is to understand in that context. he doesn't have to have that power fall personality like osama bin audit and. and he is irreplaceable and isis has a plan for succession. it is in just like al qaeda who has the most seniority. and to undercut that ability >> how important in all of

this to think about what i.c.e. is is doing to establish the caliphate i served on the armed services committee as all to work with the partners there to diminish their capacity. because the fact they controlled territory gives them a greater ability to recruit because it shows there legitimacies like we have to address this on all fronts. >> the short answer is yes. >> one elements is how the loss of territory would undermine but traditionally what happens then when that prophesies are not correct they could double down on violence that we could undercut recruiting but then

see very disastrous secondary effects. >> and then to have those same prophecies that i.c.e. is built itself on. >> senator? >> thinks having the hearing is fascinating. but like every other states your there are recently to cases from cincinnati ohio that have been there earlier this year but just last month mr. shaikh of columbus

tried to conduct a terrorist attack on the united states. one is a classic lone wolf. on the internet gets radicalized the second is a member of a community the somali community and i know other members are very concerned about the radicalization that day are a engaged as those who people are working hard and it is to move very different challenges and if you have thoughts but with the lone wolf with the appendices and

to have that capability to do more with more resources. are these two distinct challenges or strategies to have a specific question. three groups come ted d. h. s. all working together but with that expertise frankly local communities will not have access. are they doing a good job to coordinate? for responsibility and a con -- accountability? >> trading overseas and then

make it a much more effective attack. >> so with two separate issues. he is the only one from the united states returning from the attack crucially we have not talked about the al qaeda end of soviet and syria but we are both natural. but he came from of the somali community. >> given that particular

case it was not clear what end to go to the unspecified training camp while the post about the islamic states. is in terms of the problems they are two different problems we could see isis' tried to bridge a loosely that in case this is a dry run when you send somebody back. we have seen isis has returned those who could have been active day in europe for one case has the operational sell in belgium there is some much reason to think they will not. so we need to keep an eye, this. but the lone wolf peace is

easy that they prove they are pretty good at. it will capture headlines without a big investment. so the question is how much. >> talk about the coordination between dhs and the fbi. >> therein is a adhs coordinator. david kirsten comes from the civil liberties background the hapless that kind of resource in that area. it also looks at how to avoid the securitization aspect and it is poisonous to the branding especially

at the behest of these groups that have a false narrative it will continue to be no problem. but what type of fumble far reach talking about? the selfie activating a mental health issues with low-level of competency also that have a level of competency where one person can call off the effective attack see you could easily have a cell of six people to do simultaneous attacks to cause great disruption. so there is a number of threats and that spectrum it

will be different to ring gauge the community with a productive dialogue but with the federal government we have a responsibility to coordinate with the agencies that i mentioned and others. is that working or should there be more accountability with responsibility? >> it is working. i am optimistic first and foremost, there was no coordinator before and now that there is is up positive step but running into the issues of critics to say it is just an excuse but i think dhs and their

mechanisms are trying to navigate this space as best as possible. >> we will start another round. i started my opening statement with the description of that posting 71 trained fighters nobody knows if that is real but is that the unprecedented posting? have we seen similar threats that have not panned out? >> i think we have multiple times. remember the blackout on the east coast? one jihadi group. >> is the unprecedented from isis? >> know it is presented. the volume is true the

expensive so so with more specificity but what is surprising is something they had talked about that turned into an attack because they crave so much noise that needle in the haystack. >> so it is the attempt at that message. >> certainly does in-store hundreds of passive supporters some of those may be prepared to act they may not be as organized as what was described. >> you were talking about the rise of the brand that

they are subject to reversal of that. i hope that is true. i also understand strategically they made a lot of different enemies. right now we want to defeat isis what does that look like? and i would like you to take a crack what does defeat look-alike to you? >> i think there is a clear saying in this context which is not true for other groups the they have staked their legitimacy of the caliphate continuing if it is no longer viable then they could lose legitimacy pretty quickly so if you could make the caliphate no longer perceived as a viable entity then they have lost the

narrative is not complete the data to understand those nuances that they have certain doubts that they believe as some point there will be a grand battle and they will be crushed but that means you make this already marginal movement more marginal. it ties into wolf and what can the community do? but can it do to continue to delegitimize the message? prices can have a 5% approval rating because they deal with those on the margin there are those who argue against isis so not a powdery changes entire community but how do we stop the fringe group?

that is why the legitimacy of the caliphate has a disproportionate impact. >> does anybody else have a different definition of the feet? >> i think we have a strategy is to encourage isis to bail on its own terms cutting off economically internally inside a into the group would be better than forceable each section from territory especially if it is done through american n. military. >> that means the end of the caliphate? >> but not the end of the story they're ready have branches in nigeria and liberia. >> and important point anybody else have another

definition of defeat? >> i am not a military expert but how far away our brief from that definition. >> we can look to a few things but number one to internal resistance movements is important that at the end of the dave said defeat comes from within it is much more resounding. >> but we already see resistance in some areas but how robust are they? we saw a robust movement to ensure that they were not destroyed but a lot of these resistance movements are also people that we delight

and almost certainly you have a al qaeda resistance movements that has the broader struggle but looking to those internal struggles and while i think it is irreplaceable but when you have a succession like this that could have greater fragmentation and finally given they are a bit overstretched militarily you could probably see rapid reversals to securely in iraq and afghanistan war there were rapid reversals it is hard to hold territory when your population is not

happy with what you are doing. >> talk about engagement communities to understand all the better of the coordinated effort but have a jury find more people like you who have a change of heart or your capacity to appeal to turn people away from this? >> i wish we could clone myself. [laughter] i tried to do the right thing and i got here because i believe i did make the right decisions with a lot of personal cost and people may not be ready to do that. when we say empowerment it needs to be made clear that

maybe they need to have continual monitoring but to have them stepup to let them be seen on mainstream media to hear the message sometimes i feel frustrated an average freddie talks about counter messaging. but there are those that come forward so there is some direction. >> god bless you for what you are doing. >> i am tom carver and i approve that message. god bless you. [laughter] but mr. shaikh have a du pronounced your name?

>>. >> several of my colleagues have said in order to have success against al qaeda event we should unequivocally announced with islamic extremism that in your opinion is it necessary to define isis' or al qaeda in this manner? >> the question is what is the benefit? i am not sure his is the benefit to be at war with radical islam. is in libya one of the

problems with those warring factions is the commander is and chief defines radical islam as the islamists to work in the process and the jihadist organizations that if one would support his organization that makes it a civil war more defined than it should be but the administration has moved away from rhetoric to avoid terms like jihad is reasonable to do in terms of public messaging. but if we as an analyst cannot process that dimension riata disadvantage but i don't think it is advantageous to make that

enemy radical islam at large >> terrorist islamic costume used is that correct way i believe it is the oxymoron but because they appeal to the islamic sources we need to see something so tiic i have grey been scriptural references from the profit they are the dogs of hell and we believe the antichrist in selfie merges from the last remnants so those are the two terms that i encourage the use of. >> i do agree we need to

understand the religious dimension as people study the problem but in terms of public dialogue the motivation of names the enemy when i think about is since 2013 the white supremacist use of twitter to talk continually about mainstream conservative republican politics we don't insist they are conservative or republican radicals and there is a double standard it is easier to insisted it is a minority. >> i totally endorse as u.s. government it should be careful about using these terms but as the analytical

question as difficult as it is to say but there is a few different aspects. >> with religion in this country we have many flavors. methodist in this rinse them baptists and presbyterians with the muslim faith it is not just one or two but many but we think of shia and sunni and it is not that simple but when you look at isis '04 al qaeda with

domination or destruction of i don't notice the shia involvement. >> with respect to isis and al qaeda you don't have the shi'ah involvement but isis is vehemently anti-shia although it has tried to constrain that a bit. hezbollah is the of primary state sponsorship you also have the movement that you are kind of part of a coalition of and on state shechem militia with their own set of problems they are radical that could make this a longer-term problem. but i would not factor out the importance of the non

state to groups but to be at the institute earlier this scheerer to understand that particular aspect of the conflict. >> could you share with us a story and your experience with him? >> omar was an alabama native born of a syrian father an irish catholic mother. and ras radicalized and joint al shabaab and where i come into this story after he challenged al shabaab he discovered the things are not to his liking.

al shabaab had as a nasty habit to assassinate emissaries to bring in the group and there was corruption and inconsistencies so he took to the internet to put out a video. it was directed to al qaeda central. in many ways he was say vanguard for social media. not the only one but prior to 2012 it was much lower on social old media but because of him and other dissenters from the lockstep jihadi movement, people started to get online to argue with omar so al shabaab

dispatched people to say he is lying then people would pop up to push back on that and it happen from there it is this day with our credit and iraq. i add an extended correspondence on social media of which was unusual. some comments about the remote intimacy and the feeling of knowing somebody are informed by that. when you talk if you talk to every couple days to get a sense of a person which dos inflated but they are more real than someone you correspond with. >> very interesting. >> again thanks to the panel

to be here today and your written testimony was so strong to put my staff to think about these issues. in the final minutes of a flight to ask if you were a senator or a high-level executive position with counter communication, what is what we are trying to do get to? to make us think about legislation that what specifically as a strategy or tactics would you want to see in a broader scale? anybody can pick that up.

>> but to look at a problem that is very inefficient ended your previous questions spoke to you this. i referenced the u.s. government and i don't say that lightly. established companies have seen and as a start up. that has been very successful for a number of companies with attacks company food ted a good job where people could get to create a start up within a broader country. with a social be i would want to see a start up to have the best people on board. are we able to work with the

right people? working with of lebanese businessman who had remarkable ads on of the computer he knows the region well and the production value is extraordinary high. do we have the right to people in place? so not just a start at but the broader rules to prevent us as a government to attack these problems. >> anything you would like to provide i would love to pounce on not only speaking a truce but the urgent truce. >> as the subject matter

experts whether law-enforcement or psychological operations i think to move at the speed of social media to'' precisely -- bruce lee. >> but to legitimize that organic the voice with the government's stand on that and it is important to create chevy atmosphere where those voices can emerge by the west's government? >> we are getting creamed on social media but also by russia and iran and syria. it is difficult and we don't do propaganda well with tucson and san fairness but

we talk about the effort to program against a handful of twitter accounts but to have an impact with the logjam of government is to have hundreds or thousands of accounts to put out innocuous messaging just to have our figure in the space there is risk aversion that prevents us from doing things that our experimental but if we are out there first then we can figure out where to take the ship after that. >> but there is a good news story with turkey if you look at propaganda to say it is not your friend with customs border protection and to give every technical

assistance but they have a very a lackadaisical approach but to build a four and fighter from the west the previous fighters will engage in an act of terrorism. if that continues to be that case we need to know who exactly these people are to the best of our ability. >> thank you very much for a great panel i learned a lot. thank you. >> i am very serious we need to work on this to engage members of the panel and other experts of how do we do this? is it inside or outside government? we need to work on this.

>> i agree but it is urgent purpose i'd like to provide the witnesses. >> but start with mr. bergen. that the ada that we will turn off the lights simply because the administration is out of office is crazy. we were attacked on 9/11 and it is in our interest of both parties to say we planned two-stage behalf of an agreement with the afghans 2024 this is a proactive measure to prevent from hearing about afghanistan several years

ago. >> we have learned that the failed states are not good for security. >> indeed. >> a think is this is a harbinger of radical social change that we need to be prepared to see what happens when people communicates is the routine ways with people of similar interests around the world and you can join somebody in a relatively easy way to see social networks and societies that sort themselves out into groups and unfortunately we see what i think is the worst example that there is potential for interesting evolution. >> on the muslim side of things.

but with that narrative the muslims understand that's we can't do it without each other. i will be killed with everyone else we are in this together. >> help us make those connections. >> i believe we are in an era of unprecedented ability for movements to organize. are we up for this? but you have to address problems and there is interagency process and what we're getting with the output is of u.s. government

was a corporation people would lose their jobs. can we lose fast enough -- if so what can reduce to slash those obstacles? and also extra nearly into a broader world community. we talk about the brand of united states no question but we shouldn't be content nothing to do about it but that is of very big issue to have the right people in place to have the right ideas it is something hard for the government to do. >> but to solve the problems

but today's hearing has laid out a reality which was not true. so i just want to think of witnesses for your testimony. >> this record will remain open 15 days the submission of statements and questions for the record. we are adjourned. [inaudible conversations]

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[inaudible conversations] >> back in your cages. give these people a break. [laughter] there we go. you have to put a quarter in it. there you go. the subcommittee will come to order. our hearing today is on global health programs and we have a panel of incredibly brilliant people who i am honored to welcome to the

united states senate so that you can inform the senate and the american american people and the world about the good causes that you represent. ambassador at large deborah books them a thank you for coming. coordinator the united states government activities to combat hiv-aids us special representative for global health diplomacy, us department of state doctor mark double, executive director of the the global fund to fight aids tuberculosis, and malaria. sir elton john founder of john, founder of the elton john dean's foundation and doctor rick warren. each of you thank you for coming. you have an incredibly busy schedule and you made time to talk about causes near and dear to your heart. i we will make a brief opening

statement to subcommittee members. thank you for showing up. the sen. leahy, it is been a pleasure working with you and tim in the minority and majority. as politics change in this country, senator leahy and i we will make sure that the commitment to this does not change. at the end of the day i have tried along with senator leahy, to shine a light on what the 150 count does with the united states and world. as 1 percent of our budget command here is what i suggest other members of the body can't find an account anywhere throughout the budget that gets a better rate of return than the 150 count. 1% 150 count. 1 percent of the budget is 50 something billion dollars when you add it all up. that includes all of funding for state department, embassies, consulates, aid consulates, aid to israel and other nations, and a small portion of it goes to fighting aids and malaria tuberculosis command of the diseases. what i want the american taxpayer to know is that from my.of view being a conservative republican from south carolina i have never seen a better return on investment. the private sector and the federal

government and other international organizations and other governments have been collaborating for well over a decade to take the fight to aids command we are winning command ages losing. at the end of the day, the scourge is being put in a box growing in some areas like africa for reasons that we must address. in terms of future criminal money now is not the time to back off. we are literally inside the 10-yard line when it comes to some of these diseases like aids and malaria, and there are thousands, if not millions of young people alive today because of america's intervention and the taxpayer generosity. it is a national security effort, in my view to stabilize developing parts of the world so rampant diseases like aids, malaria, and tuberculosis can be

contained and were like create instability in regions that are already unstable. from an economic.of view, we are creating a customer base for american companies one day can do business with millions of people on a continent that i have come to love but have an affinity for the american people and our way of life. america does her best, i believe, when she is doing things that are right. even even though we have economic challenges here at home compared to most we are credibly rich. but our rich this is not in our bank account. i think it is in our attitude and the way that the american people engage the world. if i had to give one example to someone far away to explain america, this represents the best of the american people transparent, well-managed, saving lives and changing

the world. having said that this is at risk. sequestration budget cuts, if fully enacted, will devastate the ability of this account and others to fill its promise. we're literally inside the 10-yard line and the budget cuts that are coming under sequestration would destroy our ability to make progress, and we will lose many of the gains that we have achieved over time's. when when your 18 trillion in debt you need to evaluate your spending. here here is what i can say. this account is no longer and that. this account makes us richer. this account, i believe is the smartest use of federal dollars of any place within the federal government and

it is my commitment to working with my democratic and republican colleagues that we not abandon this account at a time we're so close to achieving the purposes of this account, which is to change the world in a positive fashion. >> thank you, mr. chairman. you. you and i have worked together on this committee for so many years. we we go back and forth sometimes your chairman, sometimes i'm chairman but we come out with a bill almost always where we are in total agreement, and agreement, and that is why passes. this is an issue that should not get involved in partisan politics. i cannot think of this kind of program to have stronger support. we support investments to combat diseases last night our discussion sir elton and pastor warren we talked

about a lot of these diseases that could be prevented or treated or cured for just a few dollars anyone of us to come out with any amount of money we want bubble we are talking about countries where that money is not there. very few americans suffer from malaria or polio or dengue fever. can you imagine if they did? you would have people lined up out here saying let's do something about it. well, when you are the wealthiest country on earth we have more responsibility. this goes beyond political or economic. you have some more responsibility and especially when these are diseases that affect millions of people often children and countries that have woefully inadequate health services. hiv-aids was identified 33 years ago.

aids and tuberculosis continue to be a serious problem. we can do better. but the rates of infection here in this country pay out compared to many other countries sub-saharan africa, eastern europe southeast asia. now, the chairman has rightly pointed out the restraints that we have, that does not mean that we have suddenly run out of money. we have a lot of money. we just want to make sure we use our best resources. the evil a catastrophe shows how vulnerable we are. ebola was a relatively easy disease to detecting contain compared to the one.

so so it is not a question of whether such a virus will occur but when and where it's. relatively modest countries were such a pandemic can originate we will pay more in the hundreds of thousands, even millions of lives lost in dollars spent. these are things that doctor burks and i will work on all the time. the chairman's and i defense appropriations and judiciary want to be your. you have all worked every one of you work hard on these issues, everyone of issues, every one of you could find much easier thanks to tackle, and i applaud you all. sir elton, we have known each other a number of years you can sit back and just relax.

instead you are here out pushing us all the time. i time. i do not want to say anything about pastor warren going after us on a moral issue, but the good pastor has spoken about where our conscience should be on more than one occasion. that is important. doctors, the expertise you bring we need it's. i we will hush up. i'm glad you are doing this. >> thank you for being a good partner here. that an ambassador. >> thank you, chairman ranking member, and distinguished members of the subcommittee. i am honored to appear before you. this subcommittee today has provided visionary leadership of the united states the pres.'s president's emergency plan for aids relief since 2,000 -- since 2003. millions of men women and

children are alive today because of the compassion and bipartisan commitment of congress the leadership of president george w. bush and president barack obama and the true generosity of the american people's. as you have seen firsthand command is the chairman mentioned, not only a transformative global health program but an outstanding expression of american diplomacy 's. i am privileged to be joined today by three great leaders in the global hiv-aids response. his stewardship has been extraordinary. pastor extraordinary. pastor rick warren, a voice of compassion for those affected by the epidemic and sir elton john, a powerful advocate for people living with hiv-aids for decades. it's change the very trajectory of the pandemic. offered to have offered to have offered hope and healing and the possibility of health and prosperity in places of sickness suffering, and death.

today 7.7 men women, and children are receiving life-saving treatment and more than a million babies have been born hiv free's. 6.7 million have been performed. success as performed. success as mentioned by the chairman is within our collective grasp if we all focus accelerate, and sustain our efforts. deliberately strengthened all aspects of the system, system, not only supporting people who live with hiv-aids the programs around child health and global health security. yet our work is far from done. with the youth bulge millions of young women are entering the window of the most susceptibility to hiv-aids infection. we have to work diligently right now to get and stay

ahead of this epidemic. according to un is, if we don't act now there will be an estimated 28 million knew hiv infections by 2030. more than any global resources can support. actions taken over the next five years will be critical. coordinated efforts could reduce the number of hiv infections two under 200,000 per year by 2030 as compared to our current trajectory, which is unthinkable, of 2.5 million new infections per year. so we are so we are pivoting utilizing a very granular yet transparent data-driven approach to target evident based intervention to the highest burden population's and geographic area for maximum

impact of every us dollar making this pivot is not an easy thing but it is the right thing, and it will prevent new infections and lead to control the epidemic. earlier this year we launched a sustainability index to provide an annual snapshot of the elements essential to sustaining and controlling this epidemic, including the critical contributions partner countries are making for the national response. leveraging the expertise of the whole of the united states government, civil society, faith-based organizations and other partners to address the most glaring gap in treatment and prevention. the accelerating treatment initiative is a $200 million partnership with the children's investment fund foundation to reach and treat 300,000 additional children living with hiv-aids by the end of 2016. dream is a $210 million

partnership with the bill and melinda gates foundation's and the nike foundation to prevent hiv infection in adolescent girls and young women. finally, we cannot control the epidemic without putting an end to the stigma and discrimination that for -- force people living with hiv-aids to the margins. all people need access to services, including key populations. at this critical time in the age response we know what must be done command we have the tools to do it. the continued leadership of the united states is vital to ensuring that we achieve an aids free generation's because the alternative is unthinkable. chairman, ranking member members of the subcommittee the uncharted terrain we are entering will test our resolve, but i am confident that we will reach our destination. destination. the ways in which we are focusing, strengthening command accelerating will hasten our arrival. thank you for the

opportunity to appear before you today. i am profoundly grateful for your ongoing and continuous unwavering support of the subcommittee. i look forward to your questions. >> thank you. i would like to mention that bono could not be here today. today. he wanted to be. he had a difficult accident and is doing better. i want to recognize is at contribution to this cause. regretting not being able to be year. sort of on the anchor tenants of the solar for worldwide. worldwide's. i want to recognize the fact that he is with us in spirit >> can i just interject. he also also kept a good sense of humor when i called after his accident. he said, well members, it's its members, it's a good thing he was wearing his helmet so he did not damage the sandbox of new york.

>> mark. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. chairman ranking member, members of the distinguished committee and your expert staff, thank you for your leadership. this committee, this chamber, this congress have reached across party lines to reach those in need. your compassion and insight reflect the best of the american people. you have you have changed the landscape's to being on the brink of ending three's to that have been around since recorded medical history's. on the path to extinction. resilient societies and economies. thanks also. a little humbling to be here with a world famous preacher's. friends for many friends for many years, and i will try to do my best to make three points. with your continued leadership we can make history strengthen partnerships through shared responsibility and drive

innovation. advances innovation's. advances in science, which i no you heard about before and also the experience of the investment you have made over the last 15 years have put us on the brink's and hiv-aids in the path to not be epidemic's anymore and the mess public health threats. with your leadership these new infections have dropped dramatically. 55 countries 55 countries are on the path by the end of next year to reduce malaria by 75 percent. twenty-six of them are on the path to elimination. there there has been remarkable progress in producing death. we now have a clear choice. we can we can accelerate the work toward the goal of ending epidemics risk the resurgence of these diseases undermining investment.

the global fund the global fund contributed to this progress. we have raised about $4 billion through your generosity's and have contributed to putting 7.3 million on antiretrovirals treatment, 12 million have been tested and effectively treated. 450 million have been distributed. global fund is the largest funder of external financing, and so these efforts are incredibly important. as the chairman pointed out beyond the help of health of individuals these diseases have enormous impact on economic loss in the developing world. estimated that nigeria alone loses $3.5 billion per year in its gdp because of malaria. the reality is the reality is healthy, productive people make healthy productive nations and get trading partners. it is not just an issue of public health and economic interest to accelerate progress.

but as we pointed out you have all pointed out by working together we can bring out the best in humanity. changing the course of history's by putting an end to these epidemics by lifting of human beings, lifting of those often left behind and marginalized. ambassador birks mentioned young women. and women are often five to ten times more likely to be infected then young boys. there driving the epidemic's the increase in young people, the risk of an explosion undermining the progress about to be made, but new data suggests if we can work just to support and keep girls in school hiv rates can drop by 60 percent if they stay in school they don't get married early, don't get pregnant early, early, have economic opportunity and will reinvest in health education, nutrition them and bringing the opportunity to their children. we are working closely with the dreams initiative the gates foundation and others

to intervene, to fundamentally change the course of these goals history. investments over the past decade are bringing a positive effect on overall health systems including in response to ebola. it's women who were trained to go door to door and malaria they were going door-to-door to prevent and fight ebola. we do it through partnership. the global fund is the world's largest public-private partnership. public-private partnership arm of the us government's government's response to these diseases and work closely with ambassador birks pet bar for the pres.'s malaria initiative's. for every dollar the us contributes to the global fund we leverage $22 from over 25 countries european commission

foundation and the faith community's. as part of the new approach to financing we are requiring countries to match what we invest, what you invest to unlock resources. so far we have leverage $3.9 billion in the past two years in order to increase countries own contribution to fighting their epidemics. and as we know, based -- countries are now investing more than the external financing's, which is remarkable and they have long provided 80 percent of the financing's for tuberculosis and more for malaria. so this increase is critical the private sector is as well. the global fund has had $1.7 billion contributed to it for the private sector. bill and melinda gates have been the largest contributors bono bono, something he created's, and corporate partners have contributed over 300 million also accessing high net

worth individuals with countries like india indonesia, south africa, vietnam commitment over a hundred million from these individuals and are working to get more. the faith community has done a remarkable job's a remarkable job's both as implementers where they fund 73 percent of them, but as funders the united methodist church handed over a check for 9 million last week upon the help. rick warren and his group have done a remarkable job advancing the disease fight against the disease, and people like elton john get deep into the communities to ensure that those left behind's people in the committee are not left behind. the private sector not only his money's gives money's the partner with us to do things. coca-cola is working with us on distribution of drugs and commodities. we are reducing we are reducing the price of commodities. in two years to an initiative called -- an initiative we have launched we save $500 million by better negotiations. that is value for money. mr. chairman, ranking member

distinguished members, you are the leaders will make this happen. thank you for your support command we look forward to continue to work with you and serve you as your public-private partnership arm to fight these diseases. >> chairman, ranking members members of the subcommittee, subcommittee thank you for inviting me to testify or day. i have so much respect and admiration for all of you. i agree the 150 account is probably the most effective in the united states budget. what you are doing matters to our nation, the world, and as a matter of life and death to millions of people around the world. i am not just pastor of saddleback church. i have sent teams to 197 countries. i 197 countries. i have sent in my own church

24,869 of my members who have served and 197 countries, 57 more countries than the peace corps has served. by the way before i address the matter of global health i want to say thank you for your previous hearing on protecting religious liberty abroad. as. as a big issue, and i have spoken to it in my printed remarks. as you know from your hearings previously we are making a lot of progress in the pandemics like hiv malaria, ntb. hiv, malaria, ntb. while the momentum is headed in the right direction now's the time to move for eradication. a lot of times people say we know how the outcome we will happen, so let's let off the panel's and leave the game. we cannot do that now. a super bowl is a good example of what happens in the last 2nd of the game. and i believe that it will take three catalytic factors in order to eradicate hiv,

malaria, ntb. we must form a new perspective on foreign assistance. second, we must forge a new perspective or a knew partnership and distribution third, we must find a knew priority in the budget which would include ending sequestration. i have covered this in detail in my written testimony. i want to spend most of the time on partnerships and new distribution, but let me make a comment on forming a new perspective. there are voices who sincerely believe that we should either cut back or eliminate all foreign assistance. this idea resonates with a lot of voters for a couple of a couple of reasons. they have no idea this amount is actually less than 1 percent of the budget.

they think it is a big amount. it is not. second they don't realize the strategic value of foreign assistance and have never considered that the right kind of foreign assistance, assistance, especially for health, education, development maybe are most effective cost efficient strategy. this is what i mean by new perspective. proverbs three to seven of the bible tells us it is morally wrong to withhold assistance with those who need it. we have in our power to help them, but there are also strategic reasons why it would be shortsighted and unwise to cut back our assistance in global health. first, when america saves the lives of dying people we make friends. that is obvious. that is obvious. around the world i have been told please thank americans' we will always be grateful to america and pray for you. when we make friends like that potential enemies are turned in the grateful allies. if somebody saves your life you have zero desire to terrorize them and in my

travels i have observed that when poor countries are overwhelmed by pandemics and stuck in poverty and have no capitol to create opportunities' they get resentful of nations with abundant resources and that resentment makes them right for angry ideologies. far more cost-effective, cheaper for americans to send medicine and to make friends now than to send troops to fight enemies later. medicines cost less than tanks. the resources we budget for humanitarian relief help programs and can save us from spending far, far more. that is the new perspective i am talking about. we need to bring is not as just some charity that we do but strategically smart for america's security and safety to help people in pain. the 2nd catalyst in

eradicating preventable diseases is forging new partnerships and distribution. sometimes you have to team tackle a player on the football field. so big that one person cannot take him down and this is where i i call and to reference what i call the three legs of the stool. the one that is to all fall over. two is tool fall over. of three ladies still stands. i have been invited to speak at doubles world economic forum multiple times and every time i hear people say we public and private partnerships. your right, but you are only two thirds of the way leaving out the big sector the faith sector. doris the other two. there are 600 million buddhists in the world, 800 million hindus one a half billion muslims and 2.3 billion christians. the actual number the actual number of people without faith is quite small outside of manhattan in parts of europe. most people have a faith.

if you want to talk about distribution you have to use faith communities. i could take you to 10 million villages around the world. and much of the world the church is the only social sector outside of the capitol. and even if we have all the meds the issue of distribution will not be solved unless we mobilize churches. let me give you want to -- one illustration. the end of president bush's term of office he invited me to be the closing speaker at the global summit on malaria i said i we will come if i can bring pastors from africa command so i did. at the end of the talk i stood up and said i will show you three slides that show you why you cannot solve any global problem without the

faith community. so i said, let me show you one example. i have been in 164 countries, but this is just one. rwanda. we went there and said what would you like? they need healthcare. i put up a map of rwanda that is not good enough health care. now, by the way, two of these three are faith-based. so you would not have been if it were not for the church. the next line 18 clinics. these 18 clinics now it's only a day's walk, but if you have been to a clinic often have a bottle of aspirin on the show for less than that. by the way to always 16 of those are faith-based

commend you would not have those with that the church. watch this. i put of the 3rd map. here are over 600 churches in this division. where would you like to get your healthcare? today's walk, five minutes walk. melinda gates came up and said to my get it. the church could be the distribution center for health care. i said it has been for 2000 years. 2000 years. let's put this into perspective. the church invented the hospital. if we are going to absolutely eradicate diseases we have got to do a combination of the public sector, private sector, and the faith sector the three legs of the stool. again, i encourage if there is any way we could end sequestration i am in favor of it. a lot of areas i think we could cut the budget. this is one that should be increased for strategic reasons. thank you. >> thank you very much. >> thank you very much.

thank you for the opportunity to let me testify this morning. it is a very daunting task sitting at a table with three amazing people in the trenches everyday fighting this disease. you do incredible work so i am humbled by being here and humbled amongst the company i keep. in 2,003 at the invitation of senator ted kennedy i have the honor of speaking before the senate health committee in my capacity as the founder of the elton john aids foundation. i created the foundation in 1992 to address the dying need to provide basic services and support to those dying from aids. over the past 23 years we have raised over $321 million to fund organizations that provide direct treatment and prevention efforts in dozens

of countries around the globe. the 1st time i testify before congress 12 years ago almost no one had access to antiretrovirals medicine in sub-saharan africa where the epidemic was most acute. people were being infected and dying by the millions, even though we very literally have the drugs that could save their lives in our hands. at at that time 12 million children in sub-saharan africa have been orphaned by aids. african leaders and declared aids to be a state of emergency worldwide more than 30 million people were hiv-positive. the disease left nothing but despair, ruin, and fear in its wake. i saw it with my own eyes as i traveled to the hardest hit regions on behalf of my foundation and our grantees. without the funds needed to make life-saving drugs available in africa my foundation invested in dramatically expanding palliative care on a hospice

network. across south africa, uganda, and kenya we help give a dignified death to more than 800,000 men women, and children, and then we provided food food shelter, and basic education for over 3 million orphans left in their wake it was it was a compassionate response, but it did not solve the problem. in those years the epidemic was only escalating until at a time of great need an urgency a a republican president and a bipartisan majority in the united states congress created the president's emergency plan for aids relief. compassionate leaders from both sides of the aisle said to the international community, america can command america will lead the world in the global fight against aids. today, thanks to the unprecedented actions of

congress and hiv positive mother in south africa can give birth to a healthy hiv free baby who can -- who she can live to raise. thanks to the generosity of the american people mine.for men, women and children have access to life-saving antiviral treatments. weather was was despair ruin, and fear there is now hope life, laughter, and love. it has done more than just save lives. it has provided basic infrastructure and trained more than 100000 healthcare workers to prevent future outbreaks in countries like botswana tanzania kenya, and uganda. congress has strong support and has enabled it to generate investments from governments and corporations worldwide and leverage $2 for every $1 invested by the united states whether by expanding its reach and its

impact. i am grateful that this is included up to 1 billion in the united kingdom over the past three years. for my foundation congress' leadership has been transformational. what we once invested in hospice to care for the dying has been repurposed to treat living. my foundation has affected over 3 million people and linked more than 400,000 patients to life-saving treatment on the continent since 2,012. combined with efforts funded by the united states we have contributed to the 48 percent global reduction and motherhood transmission of hiv. in short we are no longer bailing out a sinking ship but helping into a safe harbor. mr. chairman because of the actions of this congress the course of the aids epidemic was altered for all humanity

because because the american people have the optimism ingenuity, and will to make a difference the lives of millions of people halfway around the world have been saved. i am here today for the simple message the aids epidemic is not over. america's continued leadership is critical. there is a window of opportunity before us, a window through which we could very clearly see the end of aids within my lifetime. we cannot afford to let the window close. if our efforts flag drug resistance. this transmission rates will rise and this disease which knows no boundaries will once again become a ruthless pandemic with disastrous and far-reaching consequences. i have stood into -- at too many bedsides and america and england and across africa helplessly watching people die in pain to bear the thought that we might go

back to those dark days is unthinkable. on the other hand, if we continue the historic work and the global fund, if we honor the 40 million lives lost over the past three decades then we can and will see the day when aids is no longer a horrifying global killer but a contained and controlled chronic illness. mr. chairman this is the most powerful legislative body in the world and this congress, indeed, has the power to end aids. you have the power to maintain america's historic commitment to leading the global campaign against this disease. i am here today to ask you to use that power to seize this window of opportunity to change the course of history and one day soon i hope to extend my thanks to you to this congress, the united states of america only for fighting this

disease the friending it once and for all. thank you. >> and ended right on time. it is amazing. [laughter] after this, how would you like to vote against this. what would you say? the terrorists want you to vote no. the only thing i can think about. anyway mark, name countries that could do more that are not. >> thank you, mr. chairman. it is a long list, long list and i came from one, china. they want to receive resources but now are giving. >> could they do more? >> they can, and we are working to invest with the more. >> what about the gulf countries. >> they could definitely do considerably more.

parts of southeast asia thailand is transitioning from a recipient of the global fund. >> we are now asking people to give to have their own problems. we're talking about people who have the economic ability to give that are not. >> these countries do have considerable economic ability and are stepping up. >> what about europe? >> europe is doing quite well on a number of places. the uk surround john mentioned that france is the second-largest contributor. >> germany. >> germany is increasing its commitment. currently number six. japan is number five. >> in terms of economic power. >> they are certainly number one. >> number five on giving. >> well, to well to the global fund that have increased significantly there commitment and have increased their commitment to us and if made a commitment to do even more. >> thank you very much. these churches, new distribution network, will you take anyone that comes? >> absolutely.

in fact, after i made that presentation at president bush's malaria conference i said, i am going to prove i can do it faster than any ngo our government. so went to that area of rwanda and asked pastors would you be interested in us training your people in basic healthcare because you will never have a dr. in your village village, there will never be enough doctors for every village in the world. eighteen pastors said yes. i said grabbed two people from your congregation, and we will start training them in basic healthcare. the muslims came to us and said, would you train us? sure. this is a human issue, not a religious issue not a religious issue. you put to -- pick to out of your mosques. that group grew to 60 and retrain them to 120 and then 340 and on and on. we kept multiplying. this last august i went to that area and did a rally for over 3,000 trained healthcare workers who each

visit seven families per week. they make hospital calls, house visits. we did it with very little money. and these people are saying -- we started off with simple stuff like wash her hands and hang up the sheets to dry and how to do sanitation and dressing wounds, sitting wounds. wounds, sitting wounds. they can learn things like how to administer a rvs and do. to what is the word i want to appear coaching to make sure that they do their compliant with the drugs. it can be done and now we have many other countries asking for the same model. >> madam ambassador, but will sequestration due to our ability to get this thing put away in terms of aids and how would it affect this program if we fully implement sequestration?

>> i think you heard from my testimony that we are doing everything we can to focus every dollar we have because there is always more need. we take a very strong responsibility ensuring that we focus the dollars that we have optimally. but any cut in those dollars to five. >> do you know how much your program would be cut? >> you have mentioned it would be -- >> you need to find a number. tell me. if you don't know that number -- >> we can find that number and we'll get it for you. >> i want everybody to tell me what the number is. i is. i want to tell my colleagues you have asked dollars today, why dollars tomorrow. this is what it means. you should no these numbers. they are dramatic. sir elton john you have been following this battle for a long time. you say that we are close. what is the biggest -- what is your worst fear? >> the worst fear is stigma to be honest with you.

we are seeing, especially in african countries, the lg bt community suffering under draconian laws. when people like that a penalized they go underground. the disease is spread further. stigmatizing people because they have hiv is the worst thing one can do for me the biggest problem that we face. getting people to feel unashamed that they are okay with this violence not violence, not to feel as if they are being threatened by their own government because they may have a sexual orientation. not only is it a crime but a medical come as well.

they are telling them that they are not treatable. you drive them underground. my whole thing is, no one should be left behind. we we live in a world that is so materialistic, narcissistic. the world needs compassion leaders to show compassion. the current pope is someone i revere very much because he is beginning to show compassion in a humane way. this is vital to the recovery of self belief, self-worth. the people are told they are worthless and unloved then where are we as human beings if christ was alive today and i believe in christ he would be appalled at the way people are getting stigmatized. we need people to be felt loved and compassion. that ingredient in this mixture of medicine we face

an ongoing battle. i encourage governments throughout the world saying that homosexual -- homosexuality is a sin and everything like that they are making their disease worse. the long consequences for that that, the economy will suffer and the disease will spread further. it is inhumane and inhumane to people suffering from this disease. >> were private sector.of view have you been able to raise adequate amount even though the economy has been crippled throughout the world? >> they are. we have many, many rivals. a lot of people suffering from many diseases. but we're treated malaria and tb and the more you teach people to train people to training countries where they have not got enough medical staff, if you train people in africa, for example people are not used

to taking a tablet. they're not used they're not used to that. there used to having their local you are give them something. it is a matter of education. once you tell people if i have an event we will build somewhere and you can see that this is improving the knowledge of the disease and the treatment that you will get people people dip into their pockets. when we started off there were so many different foundations. we all work together and i think we are strong force a force for good and we had a meeting last night's i'm british. of come over here 9070. given everything to ms. human being. and the strength and the

willingness to help people in the rest of the world has touched me so much. ryan white who pointed out to me that my life i was i was a drug addict, self obsessed acyl. excuse me. and ryan white and his wonderful family turned my life around because he was a young boy who had aids hemophiliac treated very badly and he never got angry about it and for gave. we have to have compassion forgiveness, inclusion of everybody whether it's intravenous drug users prisoners, people who are gay transgender people, we are all human beings children of god and if we

throw that away the mayor throwing everything down the drain's. when ice by mr. people, and people are good people. i believe in the goodness of the human spirit. we don't have problems raising money. people are generous. if you generous. if you explain where the money is going they will dip into their pockets. >> thank you. >> thank you. i did not think it was long-winded at all. it is something that should be heard over and over. one thing ambassador berkson doctor daniel, the question has been asked on dollars. be very honest and direct in why the sequestration to her sequestration things my office has worked on this far more knowledgeable in the nitty-gritty. the numbers i'm seeing a

devastating from a devastating. they are not anywhere near the numbers the senator graham and i have supported in the past. so do not sugarcoat it. make it clear. a less expensive it is for prevention and care pastor warren and i have talked about this before. you are mentioning about the quote. and my dear friend that i grew up with from vermont.

when i remember being ostracized and people were trying to avoid them. seventy years back my wife is a registered nurse. she walked up up and give my great bigger in a kiss. that changed his life because after that people cannot avoid them because they knew my wife. a lot more popular in vermont that i am's. [laughter] they saw marcel do that and went. keep on pointing that out. it is not long-winded. it is important. even today people need to hear that. we have known about hiv and aids for more than 30 years but it is still a huge --

even here in the united states parts of the united states where it is growing. you would think with all the education. it's think we should be doing differently focusing on the right countries. we know we're going to have a finite amount of money. have we spent the best? sorry to put you on the spot. >> how do you spend the best? well, continue what you are doing. giving the anti- retroviral drugs to people getting the infrastructure in countries where there is no

infrastructure so that people can receive drugs and get them on a daily basis because a lot of these people live in rural areas and do not know how command educate. education is important. and you heard earlier young juvenile women in africa are accounting -- juvenile women now, 2nd largest cause of death in the world through rates. this is catastrophic. you have to educate them and you have to spend the money wisely. that is all i can say. >> but we all we are seeing increases in parts of this country. you would think that it would be decreasing everywhere in the world. sir elton talked about the young women in africa we

are seeing men and women in this country. where are we missing the.? rural south it is a very big problem young gay men having sex with men, a big problem because they feel that they are not going to die this disease -- we have mentioned it, it someone mentioned, each of these can be a manageable disease. in this country to all the sophisticated medicine available but people are having unsafe sex if i have unsafe sex i am going to be okay because there is a pill i can take that really knowing or understanding the consequences of what that, due to the body. but in africa don't have that option. they just want to live. over here they have the medicine.

africa and asia they don't have that. they don't have the medicine i think you have seen a rise it is cyclical. every ten years that this disease starts to rise much the young. and i am at a loss to explain it. everyone knows the consequences of being hiv-positive. but you can live a safe and healthy life. easy to treat someone. that would be my explanation in the rural south it is also a huge problem as well. and i think again a lot of it is stigma. a lot of people not wanting to admit they had this disease. a lot of a lot of people being tested for walking around not knowing they have

the disease. still a lot of fear even in countries so sophisticated as america and in my country, country, great britain the same thing is occurring. >> thank you. and last question. i could ask questions on the lawn but the president's fiscal year 2016 a $300 million impact of -- the government taking steps to realign the national programs to combat hiv-aids in the areas most severely affected. i understand you are implementing a similar realignment of funds. now some we will challenge that and say there are areas that are going to receive less funding that will be a

severe impact on them. ..

>> >> and we are working with government to ensure there is a safety net. also geographically to map the site to the precise gps court in its if they're all within half a kilometre summit would be much more effective to have two sites within walking distance to increase the number of sites in a high burden area. if you are pregnant you have a much lower chance to be diagnosed and linked to services than if you were in kenya and it is only

50 kilometers away. that is the type of work we're doing. >> thank you. thank you for the passion and compassion of the panel today in this city not characterized by compassion we thank you for that. i was struck -- struck sir elton john the you said there is the window that there is the end of aids within my lifetime. what is the greatest barrier that uc to accomplishing that goal? >> the reduction of funds of pepfar would be a huge blow. the more funds that we get the more we can educate them. to put it bluntly with talk about asia and sub-saharan

africa we have not talked about russia or released or countries that don't even talk about. we have no idea what the epidemic is like there but i have a suspicion it is not great but it is a parts of what did mitt to have a huge problem so the more money given we don't know anything about china either. we have to maintain funding. that is the biggest thing we have to do. we have to make people feel they are loved and not ashamed. >> what he does with his church to preach love that is what we must also do but along with the funding why we are here today to say we hope united states

government with congress and the senate will not cut funding of pepfar because it will be complete disaster again going back to square one and it will get worse we need to come together and countries need to step up to the plate and america cannot do this on its own e.u. and china and japan and not doing enough. >> so we have to say what can we do to make them step up that america is not the only country that does this it can take only provide 33% as the panel will have to say the other country needs to step up but the funding is critical the more money we can stabilize the world from suffering and the more compassion we can show to people with aids then i think that is the way to go it is a mixture it is not an

easy solution. >> that is a very thoughtful response. i want to ask pastor warren a question you called religious liberty america's first freedom you made oberth -- open remarks to that but the first rays of the first amendment of the bill of rights that the founding fathers cared about this issue in the fight was fundamental in the fight for independence and. what is the state of religious liberty and are we doing enough to protect it? him as he pointed hour religious liberty in is what america was founded on. the first phrase of the first sentence of the first

paragraph of the first amendment and it comes before freedom of speech or freedom of press freedom of a symbol or to bear arms or any other freedom i do not have the freedom of conscience to believe what i want to leave by june not need freedom of speech or freedom to assemble if i cannot practice had a need the freedom of the press. that is extremely important. it is part of what i call holistic assistance. medicine is not enough the reason we started the peace plan because we realized they need education and job training and poverty issues they are all holistic and as a church we have the think

that there are six things a church kindu care for and support this sick, a counseling, and lisa army of volunteers remove the stigma , a champion healthy behavior and help with nutrition and medicine you cannot just do one thing. religious liberty falls into that it is just one of the factors actually had this is in china. >> back to a comment that elton john made as well for funding you mention in the tax code should incentivize generosity. >> i do believe that. >> what about the importance

of a charitable donation in the u.s. and overseas? >> as a pastor i interested in people's personal growth and growth of character. if you attacks me then use that to help up for i don't get any credit. if you incentivize my generosity and i am generous i grow in character. obviously i and in favor of the government funding and increasing funding and this should be expanded i believe the line item really does need to be expanded it is so minuscule with more bang for the book but i also believe that we ought to incentivize generosity the tax code should reward generosity. of course, americans are the

most generous nation there is but we could be even more if we had a system that encourages it. would ever people's reward is, is repeated. >> i want to start by thanking the ranking member for the of bipartisanship and passionate commitment to ensure we have thoreau am productive hearings to look hard at human suffering and the opportunities that we have to do good in though world that is sustainable and bipartisan and effective and i appreciate your leadership on these issues. also the panel to remind us of what it means to be american and what we can do when redo the best of our national spirit to bring our capabilities to the floor. dr. warren we have of scriptural injunction not to

withhold those one could that need it and sir elton john i appreciated your testimony our changing your own life was brought forward and the dramatic impact ryan white native how the two of you help demonstrate what it means to except to welcome and celebrate go wide range of people that are suffering i agree fighting stigma against the lgbt community in africa is what we do to avoid disease said judging and i have tried very hard to press that point because the human consequences of ongoing oppression are very real that we face across the world.

thank you so much a doctor for your leadership that the global fund i introduced a maternal child health bill that i hope we will redo with this contrast to give access to creative financing techniques with financing available. have to sustain in a difficult budget environment. what are the opportunities and what do we need to be doing legislatively to help facilitate that? >> it is the big field one of the most important thing is to get countries to contribute and we actively push on that all over the world germany is number four. i got that wrong. but i can give you examples

of extraordinary opportunities actually we're working in nigeria forcing matching of $100 billion gap we have the incentive funding if you cover the other 50 so they will float a bond to cover the $50 million. that is one opportunity the other is higher worth individuals we'll understand all accounts are constraint but they have enormous wealth and we have already raised $100 million working with bill gates so there is a huge opportunity but it is how we use the money to build public sector trust funds and this puts more money into it and with those

individuals are most influential now putting pressure on the government to increase their contribution and the third is around implementation to say if i put in money to get efficiency up to work on the supply chain and the procurement system. so the innovative trust fund is a huge opportunity so countries are finding more and more of their own programs there are many others that we are exploring countries are doing extraordinary things in tanzania they have the most innovative programs with special tax is for a special bonds to fund internally.

>> i was just there last month and as has been shown the capacity of the private sector of charitable individuals to make an impact is impressive and we need to deploy a further. as we saw that with the response to ebola those who step forward with individual contributions to help accelerate the multilateral engagement and the european union also that pepfar resources and training were credited with nigeria to rapidly identify and contain the '01 paul break -- the first outbreak what about the pepfar investments to build a broader health system to prepare for the next pandemic? and tell us about the act program treatment with the

dreams initiative that you mentioned in passing of a like to hear more in the of minute and a half. >> we have intentionally frame to the health system because without one to provide commodities are diagnosed at the laboratory level or does not have providers is not functional. it is very devoted and matched so to those services we're providing but although she provides hiv test and refers patients she treats them all. although they are trained to and provided they are there for the community. we have seen every other outbreak has a rapid community responds and medical and scientific response because of the infrastructure.

with nigeria the program there they trained individuals that were there for polio trade by pepfar became the core but then you have a global health for funded and adults by a pepfar around the world who are part of the u.s. embassy that our immediate rapid responders so now you have dash detrained public health individuals and direct hire staff. to exciting pieces illustrates when you intentionally seek private sector engagement around a core program of private sector will step forward to having this foundation coming forward made it possible to achieve the goal to double the number of children reached by pepfar

holding 24% children under 15 are receiving treatment. the dreams initiative that we work to empower young women the statistics are overwhelming 5% ted or 50% prevalence by 20 in some areas of south africa this is a program my said it was high risk entering into a known territory this is a program we rely on a completely different approach to bring everything to the table from social structure to community to family choose schools structure to figure out the most disadvantaged young women need to remain hiv free and we can immediately

tell what is working to transform to the other countries. >> i appreciate though hard work you we're doing to make sure we have data and analysis and sir elton john foundation has better testing and integration at the community level as well as the community house trading in rwanda from dr. warren. we can do this effectively if the of vision of the end of aids will be achieved. thank you. >> i prefer to call you curdle to make sure everybody knows about your service to the united states medical corps. i told you a story of how we took the initiative in 1986 and i will say the senator

is not here i think he was in the leadership but the story is as a staffer i went to congressman starting a $25 million earmarked as it was called because the first diagnostic kit was provided from abbott laboratories said is from illinois. [laughter] we got results that they said they had is the role positive rate that was very high the epidemic was going up 50 years we got a very brave to go see and he said i will be damned if i start of foreign aid accounts with

the earmarked but then he changed his mind to his eternal credit. but icu are the successor to my great partner dr. mann who unfortunately we lost in the swiss air crash with his wife. he said the two halves of multilateral program but pepfar started with bilateral routes and because of those it does not work massively enough in mexico a country that we should be concerned about. that shows the advantage of the global fund all countries are of great concern. i went to school in mexico

so far from god and so dear to the united states. we have a historic problem of mexico taking direct foreign aid and i would say it is very important to to have this flexibility. he said you have to start a bilateral program don't work with who africa because it is too corrupt. i would say deborah you represent the side that is accountable to congress and the gao with the effective delivery you never know what you are working on it start off with a $25 million earmarked now it is 4 billion. and allies said back and think you talk about the and remind the public the aids

epidemic is still very much with it it just warms my heart to think of the positive work never has one country given such an investment internationally. >> that was a wonderful question of. [laughter] to the stenographer you will have your work cut out for you. [laughter] well done. senator? >> take you. thank you all very much for the wonderful work you we're doing around the world. i want to start with you ambassador because 80 percent of new infections are an adolescence of the hardest hit countries are by young women.

why is that? and the dreams partnership is very exciting with nike and the gates of foundation but what is the solution as we think about young women from being infected? >> i think this level all of statistics that nih has helped with because it was their clinical trials that pointed out the unrelenting incidents the highest rates of new infections we have seen just about anywhere of the plant 10% per year. then we started to look at this in a detailed way and we talk about working collectively because it will take a community.

what puts them at risk is a series of factors if it was a silver bullet we have achieved it already but we have 15 things that need to be done together the studies have done education or cash transfer or family strengthening we believe if you put it together as prevention as you for other parts is synergistic one plus one equals than that is what we need south africa alone there is more women in that foldable age group. >> so what you are saying is like so many other issues in developing countries this status of women contributes to the tremendous effect

from an aids? >> the great way to put it. >> they are the key affected population because the discrimination and stigma and inequality really drives the issue that is more than just to say we have services available and disproportionately to be more at risk with a lack of legal status said it isn't even registered there is a whole series of issues. so there is no silver bullets but you could see a completely different reason why a girl is a vulnerable with the 10 / one differential so is his community by community.

now we can keep girls in school that has the ripple impact on culture that she is expected not to get pregnant early or expected not to get married her they. just kidding people focused what are the solutions to come up with them? we were gone this collectively because it has to be a collective effort for a group we have not served properly. >> i am working on girls can legislation but referendum want to go to your comments that were similar to the chairman of the strategic impact of investing these efforts that are not just

important to the health and welfare but they help us. i agree with the influence of the faith sector but how do we get that more involved to educate and encourage americans to support foreign aid? you mention many american people don't understand with the dollar amount. what do you see that is working in that way? >> i go back to the idea of assistance people don't know what we do when we give

money to other countries. they don't know where it goes usually the only thing we know is we have funded so many jets or arms we don't hear outside of farming them. that is a big issue there. one thing that dr. birx mentioned is to have the right information. that countries are hungry for data collection. i would advise us for data collection that is so wise use of assistance dollars because without that you cannot have a national plan

of reduction and i would say wade's marked a that is true accountability that the donors are accountable and the receivers are accountable all and what they received. smart aid has of alignment with counterfeit -- accountability with data collection in systems and place them up for countries cannot afford that. >> i amount of time but can i have a follow-up? >> you are absolutely right. can you talk about how to get the faith sector more involved to help americans understand why these efforts are so important? >> my experience there are

more willing to partner than the government is willing to partner back the government is more afraid of the faith sector the in the face sector is afraid of the government if they said creaturely talk about partnerships i have been on the hill 20 years i hear so much about partnerships but nothing ever happens, somebody on my side takes initiative but if they were the other two legs of the stool to say how do we do this? business and health care what about church? it is good of - - at distribution the pastor sleeps in the same blankets as the community. i keep going back to rwanda because there were 1200

people there but when the genocide hit every single ngo left the country who stayed? the church because it is the country. in most of the world you cannot talk about community development without talking about the church i think they would step up instantly with little love on this side. >> i would suggest that we think about it make sure we continue to fund a the pepfar program. >> out queue brand it in a positive way to the american taxpayers of the understand the return on investment. i have been thinking about that a lot. senator? >> figure. also dr. warren i will finish up the conversation had you seen effective reach

from the faiths' sector to any particular country that your church members have worked with with the united states government? >> it is quite easy it to work with other governments. [laughter] they are not nearly as afraid of the church as ours is. their friendly because they realize we don't try to do their work everybody has a different role to play. the government's role is not church but on health and education you cannot team tackle it is easier to work with the government's overseas. >> it is ironic we have distributed the concept of freedom of religion and the disconnect to say that it does not oppose faith but we are afraid of it to partner

it seems like there is an obvious area when you talk about hospitals churches and our experts say the key thing is a redistribution center how to read it that? we cannot be afraid to say that there is an obvious connection and. it seems to be one of the greatest challenges to say this is a way to deal with this disease to let us engaged i appreciate all that you we're doing. >> i am a little concerned dealing with the funding side. the global fund received

over $1 billion with the state department hiv program and the hiv/aids programs 128 million through the cdc and nih global research how are we doing on coordination talking to each other that everyone doesn't raise their hand to say there is a problem? is everyone doing their job or is there duplication? >> it is interesting how you put it together because we both were at the lab the way we work with the nih and a global fund how we leverage we work closely with engaged

that supports scientific development and capacity as well as key research they're working on a vaccine and we are very excited about their progress but we are missing and the level of working together at the global fund the last 18 months than has transformed into daily texting with constant communication at every level >> how did that happen? to make we just committed to it. >> partition is relationship but it is just an evolution we have no in the country presence we are a freddie in saying leverage mechanism we

raise money then we spend $4 billion per year iran and raise it from all sectors. the chairman's comments without that leadership from the u.s. it will unravel that the country level we bring those multi lateral partners and other donors to work collectively the of private sector to force ourselves to get value because we cannot achieve it any other way. >> there is the obvious issues we do so much on the finance side with the emergency funding of ebola 2.$7 billion we sent 3000 to build 11 different centers and we had 20 people

treating a 2.$7 billion a and coordinated, too late massive response, delayed response, delayed, we cannot have that with aids we cannot have coordination to make sure every dollar is spent wisely. should we have responded? yes for the most efficiently ? eidenshink not. -- i think not but is there a structure in place you work to make sure there is communication that this is ongoing? hope you work yourself out of a job that would be terrific news. but how was that maintained? >> there is the structure at every level that has to do

with leadership sending bad down clearly we will work together not only at the headquarters level but at the principal recipient of all it makes them sometimes nervous how close the dialog is precisely what the global fund is doing and what's pepfar is doing and we could put that into a clear and transparent way and that is what the reverend talked about. that is what will insurer their river is not a duplication because we go down to the site level where his dollars and our dollars are going. >> keep going to raise funds and awareness. >> an excellent line of

inquiry. >> thank you for your leadership mr. chairman of this issue. there is a modest group of leaders with the impact you are a part of that group iran there are others that are part of this conversation that definitely laid out there were 3p to mix and we must take them on going over to africa in 2002 to connect on economic development you are marvelous and sir elton john you spoke in been politic

terms and compassion and love and i was struck of of a good samaritan of jericho of the blood road because it was so common to be beaten if they see that individual if there left for dead and keep going but then the samaritan we have forgotten this but they were at odds with each other but this meriden's stopped to help out than jesus proceeds to say who will assure neighbor?

to reach out to have compassion thank you so much the piece of the puzzle to have additional comments is a challenge of stigma from the '70s after her mastectomy to talk about breast cancer that was not explored. for those that change that dynamic of different groups kid you give us examples of the path to find ways to encourage others to follow?

>> this is before a vasectomy when magic johnson said he had hiv was incredible that was very early aren't. if anybody comes out if they are gay or transgendered but if people feel alone and are suffering from hiv or any other it is okay it is a necessity with night enough people who have hiv better well known that have said i am hiv-positive pro --.

it would help so much in africa of their love sport there are many people better famous though whole thing would be so much easier the stigma would be lifted as to say i am living with this disease. than i ever find -- am fine. but a angelina jovi has the double mastectomy i don't want to have the cancer that my mother has. people who look up to people especially with aids is very important to say i have hiv-positive.

you don't have to be ashamed because is essentially orientated disease for the most part you don't come back to say i have a terrible cop and a stomach ache and then say i had aids. there is no reason you just don't talk about it because it is sexually transmitted that hiv is okay i live with it. it would make it easier and is far more oh pressed underground than it is your. and dr. warren you have something to add to this but our their spiritual leaders of our governmental leaders

that have helped to change the course of the dialogue? >> if i find up pastor that has aids and i tell them that is the greatest thing we help people out of our weakness and out of our strength if i tell you the things i struggle with then you think then maybe god could work in my life. and my youngest son and it is the worst day of my life. we decided we would be open we spent one hour on the cnn of the testimony the case you don't help people with

your strength. used to think aids was the biggest decline now think it is mental illness. it is not a sin to be sick your illness is not your identity chemistry is not your character. when leaders say i struggle with this it allows other people to make progress. >> one of the vagueness of south africa so many women were widowed because their husbands died. rescinding in a hospital and the whitman were wearing t-shirts that said all i

have aids and i am proud that was the beginning of the movement to say it is okay. the weakness is our strength. i am terrible and asking for help rather suffer in silence. it is okay to be human and i'm not vestron using diamond helps a lot. >> that example shows the power of the grass-roots action is. >> what an impressive panel.

dr. warren thank you for raising the issue isn't something we tend to err talked-about on global terms but communicable diseases but it is a domestic but international. with senator cassidy and others work on a major rewrite hopefully it is part of the conversation. talking about the response to ebola i don't want people to think the only built facilities but we also put a lot of work into our local partners from the right ways to quarantine from the safe

practices. it is a lot of that work that makes the enormous amount of progress. to improve the public health so we don't just rely on the generosity of the united states the reality is - - 35 people have paid the bribe to get a health service and 40% to the health care system less under the corrupt. so how do public-health officials how to remake scheerer the dollar's intersect with the other

pots of money? to redo that with the right level of coordination? >> thank you senator i don't think we were there seven years ago the progress has been extraordinary. but that has brought the enormous amount of accountability i would never forget the president in rwanda said this is the first time somebody called less accountable. you have to report results down reinvest heavily in the data management system it is hard to steal money if you have to show results. it is much easier to say i just did some things.

that we have layers of investigative reproaches that looked at how every dollar is used. when so people are going to jailhouse for the first on interruption of the health system is exciting to see. these health problems that we don't talk about much has driven that accountability. >> just the different versions so if you care about corruption with our dollars on a the ground and don't need to use as much money if there inefficiently run. so who is the government entity? should those be reserved

with the other pieces of the state department with those that our more accountable and less corrupt? >> what the doctor just talked about is the state department and the ambassador. and to integrate the analysis then to compare the other partners. you can see what site is out of range with less dollars in high quality because the cost more in a low quality product then they go to the site to define those issues

and we start out in the countries where we share the impact then the same system is taken with the government provides to the gold won dash global fund. >> if you have a governance structure that is efficient or relatively low on the corruption scale look carefully at those factors of where to put your dollars >> with the peace plan to

promote peace and reconciliation because corruption is one of the big five problems along with poverty and illiteracy and conflict. so you have to deal with all of them at the same time. i found in working with local governments is first just listen not just assume that i know what i know i just take us clipboard to listen to their culture and their values not to come into automatically impose something but what do you need? but the piece person they're

open to work with zero he had not died on the cross yet those who were straight or gay that are willing to work with you if you find those people then start with the man of peace. >> that is a wonderful way to think about it. when we look at the money that we spent we shouldn't just look at the account to label the global health review run programs that build men of peace whether

or not it is a health line item it builds their system as we review the budget is important to pay attention to the fact that doesn't necessarily translate the benefit. >> 84 per participating you have the advanced cause of the program because i can see how close we are if we back off now with the new cycle maybe we would get five seconds of good news. i have learned in the extra money goes into the data collection business. [laughter] you represent the best of mankind.

we stand in recess the record will remain open through may 15. [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

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>> the grandson of harry and bess truman and the daughter of harry ford. this took part at the ford presidential library in 2012. it is 50 minutes. >> well good evening, everyone. it is always a pleasure to be here. if what just happened in the last ten minutes back there is any indication this is going to be a lot of fun tonight. we are going to be talking about three enormously different and important first ladies that span a large part of this country's history in different times. we are proud too these three first family representatives here. this is a unique club. there are not a lot around and having them all here tonight is

a tribitute the foundation, the library and to the ford family we appreciate you bringing another great program to grand rapids. margret hoover's great-granddaughter was lou hoover and cliffton truman whose grandmother was harry truman and we have the daughter of betty ford. starting you have, margaret, you have a lot of insight on a woman who served a difficult presidency. >> she did indeed. thank you, susan, for inviting us and the foundation for hosting us. it is a privilege to be here in grand rapids with the libraries

for the first time. we have done this a little in the past susan and i so forgive us we may adjust a little. to me lou hoover was born in 1874 in waterloo iowa raised in california and died where she lived with my great-grandfather. she died 20 years before he did. she was in the whitehouse during a really difficult time. her legacy as the first lady is little known because her papers were not opened until 1984 20 years after hoover's death. and she was lost in the shadow of the great depression and hoover's reputation were the worst calamity the country went

thew. what i learned about my great-grandmother is sharing her legacy. she was a pioneering woman much like bess and betty ford she broke the morals of her time. hopefully i will have time to tell you more about how her time in the whitehouse and i don't want to go on and on but how the time in her life was such an extroidinarily hard to pigeon type and created a model that elnore roosevelt first. lou hoover was an activist first lady doing things that had never been done and that was consistent with how she lived her life to that point and after the presidency as well. >> i have to make a disclaimer

before going to cliffton. the first president i met was gerald ford. the first president i ever saw was harry truman at his home in independence. i grew up 90 miles south of independence and take great pride in harry truman. i want you to tell me about perhaps the most reluctant first lady bess truman. >> you have my grandmother who is not an activist. when she got into the whitehouse, the first thing she did was canceled elenornor's press conference. she published a short biography

and didn't talk after that and requested press questions coming in writing and she replied no comment to most of them. not quite the openness that she thought the role of a political wife was to sit next to her husband, keep quite, and make sure her hat was on straight. that said she didn't quite do that. my grandmother was very interested in my grandfather's career liked politics understood it liked the game and liked being off side in the game but didn't have to participate. but she really enjoyed hearing what was going on in his life and helping him when she could. i wrote a book last year with my

grandmother's letters. my mother had not published the letters and left them to do and i think she did that to maintain my grandmother's privacy. but i am a rotten grand child and don't care. >> and they are beautiful. >> they are incredible letters. you have my grandmother reporting to my grandfather that she lied to politicians to wanted them to back them on the campaign saying she is not home and can't possibly do it for you. she took part. she was engaged. she was a lot of fun but again compared to lou and elnore she was taking care of her mothers and brother and a family

oriented first lady. my grandfather said in writing and in person had it not been for my grandmother doing that and holding the fort he could not have done the job he did. >> and unlike ms. hoover she lived longer than the president. >> outlived him by ten years. she is the longest lived first lady still. she was 97 when she died. >> and she died in new york? >> no she did in missouri. >> your mother was in new york in >> no my mother was in chicago. my family dies all over the place.

>> talk about the person. that person was developed well before they became first lady and how they performed in the office has a great from their early lives and prepared even if they didn't know they were preparing. >> that is true. there is probably several people in the audience that can tell more things about my mother than i can. some of you grew up with her and knew her as a young bride or high school or whatever. grand rapids had a lot to do with my mother's character and moulded her. i think my mother is a cross between bess truman and lou hoover. she was an activist when she wanted to be. and some of you heard the story of her going to a palm reader, way before she married by dad or right after and they said you

will meet kings and queens. to my mother that meant she was going to dance, because we all know that dance was her love, and she danced with martha graham, she would get to dance in front of queens and kings. little did she know she would meet them at state dinners and host them at the whitehouse. take a chance at changing woman's health care which she truly did. the survival rate is 90% from breast cancer and when diagnosed it was 70%. she made a huge change in that. and her drug and alcohol. she was a very private person as

well. and wanted her private time and there were many many days she would sit on the couch and say i don't want to get back and shake another hand or be that public persona which is more the bess truman in her. she loved it did a great job and she only had two and a half years. i think she would have been a fabulous first lady. it would have been interesting to see where she would have gone in another four years. >> this was unexpected in both cases. they were thrust in the role of first lady in very difficult circumstances. it is hard to overstate in the case of the death of franklin roosevelt and the resigning of richard nixon, how it impacted the country.

did that put more pressure on them to be more forthcoming or show more strength or resolve for the country? was that part of the task that was laid on them in that unexpected moment? >> well i think the country was in such unrest and the american people didn't trust the presidency. this was a death situation which was a little different. they are different situations. mother just kind of stepped in and she kind of slid in went i am going to lay low and feel my feelers out and do it that sort of way. bess was just a little different because a death is different. >> and she i think my grandmother while conscious of what she was stepping into was

also stubborn. and wasn't going to let it change her. she was going to do her job. but she wasn't going to let it rule her. there is pictures -- she knee what she was getting into. in the 1944 democratic convention in chicago when my grand father was nominateed to be on the ticket with president roosevelt, everybody was happy about that except my grandmother and there are pictures of my mother and my grand father waving and shaking hands and just everything is great. and my grandmother is over there like this. damn it. just knowing that it was a funny thing with president roosevelt. everybody knew how sick he was but everybody denied it. there was the whole she knew it wasn't likely to happen and

that wasn't something she wanted. >> it is important to remember this wasn't their first rodeo. they had been in politics for a long time. margaret talk about your great-grandmother. now you are in the whitehouse, you are the first lady from what you have been able to find what was her impression of what her role was to be? >> she saw it as an enormous opportunity -- in terms of the role with the president, my great-grandfather was not an outwardly gregarious or publically excited figure. he was orphaned at nine years old and that changes how you interface with the world. she was a very gregarious personality. she was the first lady to give public addresses on the radio. she saw her role helping to

soften him with his sons in his work and then in the presidency. she also understood there was a role for the first lady and was very aware of that. you see that throughout the letters. one thing she did that wasn't replicated until jacky kennedy came to office is she was the first woman to take inventory of the furniture and things assembled in the whitehouse onward since washington were never cataloged or documented. she took this project on. she was an academic in her own right and helped translate -- this was an earlier accomplishment of her. she was the first woman to graduate with a degree in zoo

zoology in the united states. the bible of me she translated was published in the 16th cinch century and all in latin and she and my great grand-father dedicated five years of her life to translate this. she started to reconstruct techniques used in the 17th century because words were made up. we didn't know the techniques and that is how they wanted latin when the romans were around. they had to collect an entire library of books that ultimately ended up serving as one of the first bases of the harvey mud collection on geology.

those are the skills she took to category category of the whitehouse and jacky kennedy took it on after that. >> she was born in illinois right? >> waterloo iowa. >> how did she get to california? >> hader father had health problems in iowa and they moved to california for that. she grew up -- they had two daughters, and her father wanted a son, and treated lou like his son. she loved the outdoors. was very involved in the girl scouts and spent 40 years. all of the time she returned to the united states to her death

the girl scouts was her primary cause. she grew up camping and wanted girls, especially in the victorian era to get outside and do more than be ornamental. gl didn't she have a gun? >> she was a hunter, an equestrian, a marks man. >> it is good to have one of those. >> you might need it as first lady. >> if you haven't sent up your questions, i would remind you. i want to and the position of moving from iowa to california. it isn't as easy as you would today. your grandmother was raised born and died in the same house.

>> born in a different house. >> but nearby? >> the house known as the truman home is her grandfather's house. george porter gates bought the house pre-civil war but it is a gray house like one story. and in 1885 george porter gates who had made a pretty good living as a co-owner of the queen of the pantry flower the milling gates company, one of the wealthiest men in town built it up from what it was. she was born in her parents house which is nearby. but spent much of her life in the gate's house and what became the truman home. her father committed suicide when she was 18 years old.

the family went to colorado for a year. the stigma being much worth -- worse. 20 minus 97 77 years in that house. >> this is her reaction with the public because of what she went through. >> it was painful to her father. david wallace was a wonderful guy. independence was one of the biggest the town has seen. he would give you the shirt off his back. she was a nice human being. he was a politician a would be politician, son of the former mayor of independence.

he could never make head way and was never a temperate man. as things got worse, she was always in debt and borrowing from his father in law. he woke up in 1903 got dressed, and went to the bathroom and put a gun to his head. no one saw it coming. his wife a beautiful wife at the time didn't question at the time why or what condition he was in or where the money was coming from. she nursed him through one hangover after another and everybody was stunned when he killed himself. my grandmother was very upset, she loved him, and he left without an explanation and she was hurt the rest of her life

from that. that is where the privacy comes from. >> and to move to betty ford and the almost opposed way she dealt with some very personal hurtful issues in her life where bess truman and the president were willing enough to keep her pulled back. it was a different time too. but by the 1970's your mom broke the mold when it came to talking to the press. she may have given them more information on what to do. >> and more information than i would have liked out and some saying. >> i am so grateful she opened up about the breast cancer issue and what she has done to change women's hilary clinton -- health

care -- the press back then wouldn't have said tell us the truth. what is really going on. the press would not have done that then. she could have gotten away with saying no problems. there were details of a mastectomy and how much lymph node was involved. the other side was doing an interview and saying i would not be surprised if my daughter had an affair. we could have left that alone. because of the boys lined up saying you have a hussy little daughter out there.

i am sure my brother jack would have preferred her son not admitting her son smoked dope. we are like mom, do you have to share all of the details? we were criticized for wearing blue jeans, criticized for wearing fur coats which would still be criticized today. who knows what else. but oh well, betty chose to live her life on her sleeve and thank god she did. it set an example for other first ladies and left the door open >> margaret tell us something that would surprise us about your great-grandmother.

>> i bet unless you study her you don't know she was the first lady to invite an african-american woman to tea. it caused a huge scandal. it was called the depriest incident. she was the wife of congressman depriest who was elected from chicago. it was a tradition the first lady invited the members of congress' wives tea. and they were progressive and knew it could be a scandal and tried to handle it in the right way and decided to go ahead with it because it would bow bee a good move for the country. my great grandfather invited her husband to the whitehouse the next day making it the first time an african-american was invited to the whitehouse

publically. >> there are probably a lot of surprising facts about bess truman. what would surprise us the most? >> the bed flap story. >> so many of my favorite bess truman stories. >> it is a good story. my grandparents were very close and hated being apart. and my grandmother did leave him in the whitehouse and blare house during the second administration was the white how was rotten on the inside and that by the way is a reflection of its structure not -- >> not a medical. >> so they had to rebuild the whole thing and they lived at the blare house for three and a half years.

my grandmother went back to independence to care for her mother. my grandmother was the rope and her husband and mother were at the other end. when she returned back to the blare house, the head usher, mr. field, reported it was just like sunshine breaking into the blare house. my grandparents were so thrilled to be with each other again it lit up the whole room. the staff and everybody was walking on clouds. it was just fantastic. and my grandmother came down the next day, took mr. fields aside and she said we have an issue upstairs. in the room there is an -- it oh hell, fields one of the flaps on the bed is broken.

grandchildren go ew! but there is a surprise. don't ask me that because i cannot top that one. >> this is a great opportunity. there is a whole bunch of questions like this. this is a great question for all. let me start here. it is addressed to everybody, i think. it is -- it will be very different for each one of you. how did being a first -- first family, first grand child, affect you? i assume varying degrees.

it does have an impact further down the family tree even with your mother and her career and with you have and your career now and all of this does have an impact. how does it affect you being one of the first? >> well i guess it affects me differently in different ways. in grand rapids of course i am more recognized, more acknowledged more people know me as betty and jerry's daughter. most people don't even call me bails they call me susan ford or susan ford-bails. so here and on the other side of that this is a tone because this is where my cousins are this is where my grandmother was, this is where my parents were raised and has more of a home feeling. at home in tulsa, i am

bales-daughter-in-law. my father-in-law who passed away was a city attorney. so everyone goes -- it is refreshing to be known for something else other than my own parents and proud of my in-laws. so i can hide when i want to hide which is the nice part and be dirty. i go to the gym and no body knows who i am there and i am dirty just like everybody else. you can get dressed up put the contacts in take the glasses off and play the other role. so i guess that is the biggest thing. i can come and go in it as i please. that is nice. i would not want to be a first daughter in today's society because of the 24-7 news cycle.

it would be miserable. i think it would be really miserable. i don't know. i just assume. >> just thinking she is talking about dirty and grungy that is how we walked around key west. we were supposed to go for a photo-op photo-op and we are all dirt ski i thought i was the only one and susan walks in saying thank god. >> i wasn't invited to the key west event. >> we will get you there next time. >> i will be there. no one is more surprised that i take such a role in my grand grandparents legacy as i am. i never intended to sit on the board of the truman library and be his honary chairman. where work at the little whitehouse in key west.

i worked for truman college in chicago until recently. what happened? everything had truman on it. as a teenager it is like oh god, you have chopped liver syndrome with everyone coming up to me saying your grandfather is wonderful and what am i? chopped liver? people want to talk to you because you were related to someone more famous than you. i went through the whole i want to be famous too and wanted to be an actor. that worked well. >> you have a career in standup comedy coming. >> on limited venues. >> right. >> presidential libraries, i get 13 gigs a year. but, you know i do this and i take such a role and i have written books about my

grandparents and what surprises me and i am interested and enjoy it. i enjoy the people and i have come to enjoy the presidency through them and history through them. it was just something that i ran in the complete opposite direction from for years. it caught up to me. >> none of your brothers have an interest either? >> no. no. well my youngest brother, thomas, you know when you prevail upon him to go to something he enjoyed it but he is a computer programmer. he makes everything else run while i am up front. so surprise. and happily so. but every once in a while i wake up and say what happened? >> there is no doubt about it it is a very different appearance. for the first generation second generation, third generation i

agree with you. i think a lot of the girls helps you. i think the obama girls are sheltered a little bit from it which is nice. you didn't have a choice. this is something your parents decide long before you. this is something you did that requires a lot of interest. this is a passion project, interested and in my case there is an incredible story to tell about the hoovers. i think our story needs to be told. the american country needs to be told and lou hoover has an

incredible journey through the american tapistry. and today we have american individualism. but by the time you get to me and susan says when she is in tulsa she can be susan bails and sort of chose that. i didn't know it was possible for a child in a president. >> if you could ask your great grandmother any question what would it be?

>> i think i would personal ask her some girly stuff. just because that is the one thing she didn't write about. >> quantify girly. >> i want to know what was it like to be a woman -- she and my grandfather helped organize relief in belgium and for the citizens of northern france that said 10 million bellgians were gay and he was interested in getting that operation up and running. she was a woman. and she was part of it. in the same way that in the context women didn't do the

things lou was good at i would be curious to know what it was like as a woman doing the things she did at the time she did. >> this isn't a question from the audience but one i promised myself i would ask you. it is a story about your grandfather and your mother. your mother while your grandfather was in the whitehouse, would occasionally perform publically and on one particular occasion -- >> she is an incredible vocalist to clarify. >> i am sorry. right. thank you, margaret. >> he was in key west. she was saying -- a review was

written that your grandfather didn't like. >> that is right. she was singing at constitutional hall in the 1950s and the review was written by paul hume of the "washington post." he said unkind things about my mother's singing ability. >> quite a few things. >> my grandfather read that the next morning. the korean war -- i don't know if it had started -- and that would be dramatic his press secretary, charlie ross died the morning of the concert of a massive heart attack. grandpa wasn't in a good review. he comes this review and he sat down and wrote out a review of a

page and half and wrote out unkind things. the end of the letter said i would like to meet you in person and when i do you will need steak for black eyes and you will need steaks below perhaps. it got pass the pr. my mother said those letters -- and the response mail ran 80-20 in grandpa's favor after that. they predicted he would be backed up on this by fathers across the country. a few years ago i gave a lecture at a retirement home in evanston illinois. during the question and answer period at the end of the night, a lady put her hand up i was talking about this and i said yes, ma'am, and she said i used

to accompany paul hume and i am slow and i said accompany him where? >> and she said no no i used to play piano for him. and i said whoa, you mean he sang? and he said oh, yeah. and i said really? i have to ask how was he? and she said like a cow mooing. i ran home and told my mother and said like a cow mooing. and my mother was laughing so hard she dropped the phone. mr. hume was woufrl and had a fabulous career well-respected wonderful man, tarnished for life by one bad line.

>> this is a question for all of you and from someone in the audience. you touched on this briefly but when you talk about chelsea and when you talk about the bush daughters and now with the obama's in any circumstances would any of you have been living in the whitehouse today given the massive changes in the way the whitehouse is covered. >> and i think everybody would understand. it all depends how old you are. i was a senior in high school and a freshman in college. you could not ask for the worst time age wise. that is a difficult time. i know there is lots of mothers out there who were trying to survive this age with their daughter so to begin it with it is a difficult time. i think the obama girls have

done a fabulous job and been well protected. it is easier because of their age you can protect them. i was driving cars and trying to get out of trouble and not get caught' getting in trouble would be a better way to put it. being the fourth child, mom and dad were so tired by the time i came along, it was one of these that i was dating mother and sad assumed i was safe -- >> you had secret service. >> and my girlfriends with me. we would go down and share a hotel room for the weekend. my parents were assuming the secret service was protecting me and nothing was going wrong. all of those things.

and they didn't realize the secret service doesn't stop be from doing things just protects anyone from harming me. i think it is an age issue. i think that is the biggest way to handle it. >> and the criticism of your mother that came and i remember her saying this is something you endured as well and when you are a child or a daughter in the whitehouse saying you haven't volunteered for that service you are on the firing line for very criticism from the press that are blatantly unfair. in the past i heard a few stories about that. but i know that you -- that is just something that maybe worth now, i don't know. you would be the one most

qualified to answer that. >> it is one of those. and my mother said this and ladies have continued this. we didn't chose to be here. leave my kids alone. let them be kids. let them grow up when we were being criticized for blue jeans and driving fast cars and jack smoking dope and you know we were not perfect children. we were normal children trying to grow up. and i think that is the biggest thing i look at it with the obama girls. leave them alone. they are just trying to be kids. let them be kids. and they happen to live in a nice house and their dad is a public servant. my dad has been in congress for 25 years. i had grown up in washington. i didn't have to change cities. my heart goes out to those girls having to change schools.

lucy johnson and i had long talks because she was at national cuathedral and she was at holton. most come in and have to change schools. i didn't have to do that. i am like leave them alone. let them be kid and try to grow up. >> there is the other side of the street. when former president george w. bush was on the stage a few months ago and said you two particularly were part of a very small club being the children of president of the units and how difficult it is as children or family members to hear people criticize your father or the president of the united states. president bush said paraphrasing he didn't care when he was in office but he would get furious when people criticized his father. did your mother talk about that? all presidents get criticized.

scombl >> the first story that pops into my head is during the 1948 campaign apparently the only three people in the country who believe he could win were him, my grandmother and my mother and a new york photographer was taking my mother's picture going to a car and photographer is being very courtly in those days she is backing up and taking pictures and he held the door open for her. as she got in he said through the window, it doesn't look good for your dad. and mom grabbed the door out of his hand leaned through the window and said you have no fate and slammed the door and took off. you know -- >> i can say having witnessed

generations before us being related to the guy most vilified, that main and criticism is really hurtful and intergenerational. the kids didn't ask to be in the whitehouse or that life but they take on that pain. when their parents are criticized they internalize that. it can change an entire family's perspective. i have to say i saw that in my grandmother, grandfather, and my dad. and in my own way, i sort of took on nature about my great grandfather early on because that was the situation of hoover. we were defensive about hoover because we wanted to prove there was another side the county didn't know. and maybe the great depression wasn't his fault. historians are beginning the

narrative that is changing and be more accurate but you know i think that pain is a pain that is, i mean you can detect it more but i have seen it in the levels of my family. >> that is one of the reasons margaret and i are friend because my grandfather and her great grandfather were friends because my grandfather knew -- >> truman reached out to hoover and invited him back in the public service and herbert hoover and truman were friend for 20 years and hoover never forgot truman. he loved him. and their friendship was real it was long induring and the first time we got together and talked was about that friendship. harry truman had that partisan pride. >> he had to invite him back by writing a letter and sticking it in the mailbox.

he must have taken more important stance. >> we are running out of time unfortunately. try, if you, and margaret i will start with you the whitehouse years are over. in the case of president truman he didn't run again. in the case of your family ran and lost in '76. and obviously for the hoover family it was a big disappointment leaving that whitehouse. what was it like for your great grandmother? >> they went back to the house she built on sanford university, she built and designed the house and wanted to be outdoors and in the west. she loved the west. hoover didn't wan to be that far away from the action. finally they settled on new york after a couple of years. and she went back to girl scouts and became president again of the girl scouts of america.

she had been the president in the '20s. she was the one who got ms. wilson to be the first honorary chair of the girl scouts and every first lady since has been the honory chair. she was president in the '30s and spent time to devoting to charitable organizations. when she died of a heart attack suddenly in new york in 1944 the cathedral where they had her funeral the first three rows were reserved for girl scouts in uniform. >> bess truman was happy to be away from washington. >> oddly the opposite is true. when the came time to retire she wanted to stay in washington, d.c. my grandfather said hell no

there is nothing worst than the past president hanging around washington. my grandmother liked her friend and social life and wanted to back off and go back. she enjoyed washington and that surprised me too. she went back to independence and back to her clubs and her friends, and community work and all of that and into retirement. the one thing that surprised her, my grand father spent the first, let's say he retired in 1953, the library is dedicated in '57. he was raising money building the library had an office downtown, she was gone most of their married life. worked horrible hours. someone asked my grandfather what do you do to relax and he said work. he was gone all of the time. the truman library was dedicated and he moved into his new office

and walkedit was only a mile away and he walked into the door and my grandmother said what are you doing? he said i thought lid i would walk home for lunch. and she said never do that again. >> we have a lot better most of us have a much better knowledge of what it was like after the whitehouse for your mom. she stayed busy for a long time. >> she did stay busy. she continued her breast cancer work and got involved with the betty ford center and spent time there for 20 years working with patients. she taint continued to speak. they built the palm spring house and she spent time alone while

they travelled. it was a shock if he came home for lunch. she was a busy woman and was busy until the end. >> ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being here. i want to thank the ford foundation, the library, the ford family for including me in this margaret thank you cliffton susan, what a great panel. i cannot wait until we go to key west. [applause] >> they were wives, some had grandchildren who became politics. they dealt with the joys and trial of motherhood the pleasure and chaos of raising small children and the tragedy

of loss. just in time for mother's day first ladies looks at the personal lives of every first lady in american history many who raised families in the whitehouse. lively stories of fascinating women, entertaining reads based on interviews from c-spans series published by first affairs it is available in a hard cover or e-book and make as great mother's day gift. >> this sunday night at 8 p.m. eastern on the orange series first lady influence and image. we will look into the live of elizabeth monroe who spoke french inside the whitehouse and gained a reputation for being

queenly by her critics. elizabeth catarrhine -- catherine adams is the only first lady to be born outside of the united states. sunday night at 8 p.m. eastern on c-span's original series. examining the public and private lives of women who filled the position of first lady. from martha washington to michele obama. sunday evenings. >> our special mother's day presentation continues can caroline kennedy who spoke about her mother marking the release of the book jacqueline kennedy historic conversations.

this took place in bought boston n. it is 30 minutes. [applause] >> thank you all for coming. the staff of the library and foundation for the stewardship and dedication they show every day at the library. and board members who are here and people that i worked with over the years. and especially the members of my family who are here. it means so much to me and i think it is a wonderful tribute to our parents that we are all here together. thank you all. most importantly, it means a great deal that 50 years after my father's presidency so many people share his vision for america, and are interested in learning about this administration. his time is really becoming part

of history fathered in living memory. president kennedy's word spirit and example remain as vital as ever. now when young people often feel disconnected from politics it is up to us as adults to reach across the generations and reach amid ourselves and country to the ideals he lived by. for my family and the kennedy library the goals of the years are to stimulate interest in public service and use the power of history to help us solve the problems of our own time. we are undertaking a number of important projects creating the largest presidential digital archives in which my father's papers are available worldwide so people can study his decisions and see history in the launching. we launched the jfk website

where you can download papers and kid can upload testimony about their own experiences. we have scientific innovation space program and the quest for nuclear disarmorment which were all issues that continue to shape the national destiny. and we published the seven interviews my mother gave in 1964 as part of an oral history project in which more nan than a thousand people were interviewed about my father career. she sealed the tapes and posted the transcript in a safety deposit box in new york. he she did speak of them to me and john but few others new of their existence and never gave another interview on the subject. the underlying goal of the oral history project, which was the

largest of its kind at the time was to capture recollections while they were fresh. no one interview was expected to be complete or comprehensive but together with the underlying record and historical archive housed at the kennedy library it was hoped they might form a composit picture that might be valuable in later years. they make history come alive giving us a glance of the human side of the people inside the whitehouse. people have been surprised my mother, who was famously private, participated in this project giving it her full commitment. but to me it makes perfect sense. my parents shared a love of history and as a child my father