powerful, they begin as fragile, barely formed thoughts, so easily missed, so easily compromised so easily just squished. his was a victory for beauty, purity, and as he would say for giving a damn. the ceremony which anyone can watch these days on their imacor our phone or -- iphone or ipad or samsung galaxy was both sober and rousing. look right look left, look ahead of you and behind you said campbell. you're it. results counted. you're the people who made it happen. it was an event that celebrated the past and that also made clear, as steve would have, that there was much still to be done. we won't keep you too long, said chris martin, the lead singer of cold play, as they launched into a song to close the ceremony.

we know steve would want you to get back to work. please join me in thanking our guests. [applause] >> thank you so much. >> so, we're going to excuse them stage left while you exit that direction and we'll see you downstairs for the book signing. thank you. >> booktv is on facebook. like us to get publishing news, scheduling updates author information and talk directly with authors during the live program. facebook.com/booktv. >> now on booktv's "after words," peter she vein discusses the childhood of first lady michelle obama. her is interviewed by cassandra

clayton, from the university of maryland college of journalism. >> peter she slevin, thank you for joining to us talk about you new book, michelle obama a life. >> thank you. great to be here. >> host: such a simple title for the story of the woman you called the most unlikely first lady in modern american history but it's not just a story of her life. it's the story of modern american -- did you set out to tell the story in that context or did that develop as you found out more about her background and the certain themes emerged? >> guest: cassandra, i covered the obamas for the "washington post" for quite a while. i was living in chicago and working for the "washington post," and i recognized that michelle obama has led a remarkable life, her trajectory is fascinating. i felt it was worth telling a story where she is at the center of her own narrative not just

the wife of. when i embarkedden on the project i wanted to figure out where she was coming from. the things she was doing in the white house. what were the origins of that. that meant getting intoer there family history and into chicago history and then into the history that she has lived in her 50 years. >> host: chicago is a major player almost a character in her story. going back there and looking at the life of her father, frazier robinson iii whom she called the north star, even after he died. what was it about her parents her father in particular, that gave her that outlook and her values. >> guest: that's right. many people remember in the 2008 campaign, she would say of her father that he is the voice i hear inside my head when i'm asking myself, am i making a good decision right now? fraser robinson was born in 1359 on the south side of chicago. his parents had come north.

his father has come north in the great migration. he went to local high school, he went into the army, he was a boxer, he was a swimmer and he really was the heart and soul of his family. he was the oldest brother. he was gregarious. he was seen as kind. he work as a democratic precinct captain where he was solving problems at the very local street level in chicago at a difficult time, and he spun stories and he shared his values as of course did michelle's mother at the same time. and michelle was particularly close to her father. up until his death. >> host: he had suffered from multiple sclerosis. hough did seeing him get up and go to work every day in that state affect her. >> guest: something that michelle obama talks about.

she said i never saw my father run, and yet she and craig her older brother watched their father get up every day and go and work at the city water plant, even as he had much -- worsening case of multiple sclerosis, and she admired his determination, his pride in his work and how he just never quit. >> host: she and her older brother, craig were left in this tightknit family and they seemed to have a very happy home life. they were not wealthy. >> guest: right. >> host: by any step of the imagination. give us a sense of what that home life was like. >> guest: sure. michelle obama says that the bungalow where they lived -- the apartment actually in a pumping low where the lafd, which craig -- >> host: how many bedrooms? >> guest: one bedroom and craig once said if you said it was

1100 square feet eye'd say you were lying. it was very smallment they lived a very modest existence. in fact michelle's mother was a stay at home mom until craig and michelle were in high school. but michelle said that bungalow was really where my life happened. they lived upstairs from her mother's aunt and uncle who had taken them in, and craig described it as the she shang a la of upbringing because it was a peaceable, integrated at first part of chicago it was a place although white flight was upway families were strong, the school was nearby, they could walk places and ride their bikes to places. this was in the '60s and early '70s. she was bornin' 1964. >> you mentioned that frasier had come up as part of the great migration, his family had come up. tell us about the credo that came with those family, that came up from the south and they

had a certain expectation for their children. just be better. >> guest: the credo is exactly the right way to look at it. and i talked with classmates of frasier robinson, talked with relatives of michelle, who all told very much the same story their parents cousins ons and unkilled came to chicago and came in search of a world that was a little more fair, where there was a little bit more free for african-americans and more opportunity. and as one of frasier robinson's friends said, frasier michelle's father, was about the business of being the business. it was you get on with it, you do your work, you stick to your knitting and you do just also better than your parents and with luck your kids will do a little bit better than you.

>> host: that's point to point that out you say all the parents had a larger message fundamental to their upbringing, rooted in the pear docks of seemingly contradictory ideas but the playing field wasn't level because of their x-rays class but -- their race and their class but this there was a conviction that come bin anything of love, support persevere, and upright living could win out. >> guest: very much the story i heard from many people. one of the people heard that from was due duval patrick. he was the governor of massachusetts. he drew up on the south side. a little older than michelle robinson-michelle obama now. and he talk about the lessons he learned and how there was a fundamental message of getting on with it, but at the same time parents, in his case, a grandmother, who had endured racial hostility saying, yes it exists, it's important to know it exists, but it will not

stop you. do not let it stop you. you can still be whatever you want. i think about that in the context of michelle obama. her grandfather came from georgetown, south carolina, came to better himself as he put it. didn't see much of a future for a man -- young man like him in south carolina. and he was very mindful that he did not have the opportunities that so many other white people -- so many white people did, and michelle said, if my grandfather had been born white he would have been a bank president. he worked in the post office -- >> host: which was a pretty good job. >> guest: the federal government was a way in for many, many african-american froms in chicago and around the country. he went into the army, another place where that happened, although it was segue degree gaited until 1948. then he went into the post office. and so he shared the lessons he

had developed but said, remember are your destiny was not written the day you were born. go out there gift on with it, and you can be whom you want to be. and michelle tells the story. she talks about that grandfather. >> host: how much did racial conflict racism, racial separation affect michelle's childhood? even at her playground, the rain bow beach. >> guest: rain bowe beach was the public beach on lake michigan near where she lived. in the early 760s there was great deal of racial competition for the beach and there was a riot a riot didn't turn out so. we wasn't so much a riot as a disturbance that was prompted, i think, the record would show, by white people in chicago who

were let's say frustrated that black people were encroaching on what the considered their telephone. chicago was changing at the time michelle obama was coming up rainbow beach was place she could ride on her bike and there was a city park, city camp, she attended. there's no question but that michelle obama knew about racial hostility, but she did not experience it in the same way that her parents and her grandparents did. her mother went to a segregated school, for example. he mother was born -- born in 1937. initial's experiences were different and she had opportunities that were different than her parents. >> host: the parents did a lot to create a safe haven. craig, he brother said, our parents gave us a little head start by making us feel confident. it sounds so corny but that's how we grew up. and michelle certainly a

confident young woman competitive,. >> guest: very competitive. >> host: very studious. >> guest: she was very competitive. her mother joked michelle raised herself from the time she was eight years old but they did have very warm and embracing family. craig has spoken about this, michelle has intend about this. meant a great deal that the family was geographically close they spend time with the extended family, but she also went to the neighborhood school, as did craig. both of her parents were involved in that school. they were parents who connected therement and her father did shift work and had a great deal of time for his kids. he poured enormous energy into craig and michelle. >> host: tell us about ten-year-old michelle who missed out on the best camper award. what happened there? >> guest: the story that michelle tells on herself. it was at rainbow beach and she

was at a camp in the summer and was told you would have been the best camper if you only didn't have quite the salty tongue. imagine that. >> host: what did she learn from that. >> guest: she may have leonard bite her tongue a little bit perhaps. she liked being on top of things in charge of things. very determined. she talks about how -- craig talks, friends talk about how hard she works to get ahead. she went to a magnet school rather -- >> host: i wanted to talk about that. had to travel across town to get to young when she went there and that said a lot about how chicago itself was changing during that time, the mid-'70s. >> guest: that's right. she graduated from high school in 1981. she did go to whitney young mag knelt school, traveling an hour and a half each day. some days because the bus was so

crowded she would take the bus south, away from the school so she could get a seat on the northbound bus and study on her way. one of the most interesting things was she had a best friend in school who had a well-known father jesse jackson and she and santita were very close they were both in the honor society at whitney young magnet school. michelle was very engaged at school. she was the senior class treasurer, she danced there and it was an interesting world and i spoke with classmates and people who had gone to whitney young who described it as an oasis in a city that was still very racially segregated. >> host: when her older brother craig, had a big decision to make about going off to college he was an accomplished basketball player, got lots of offers from schools that were going to pave the way.

but he wanted to go to simpson. talk about that decision that craig made to go to princeton even owe -- even though there was that matter of money. how was that a decision they the flame made. >> guest: it wasn't intriguing moment. this was in 199. craig was graduating from high school. a very talented basketball player. he had an offer from the university of washington that would pay his way and he had been invited -- had been accepted at princeton where the family would have to pay some of the bills. he would have to earn some money on the side to get to go to princeton, and he had a conversation with his father, who was sitting at the kitchen table, and his mother, who was washing dishes and talking it over with his dad and he said, dad i think i might go to the university of washington. and he says his father kind of -- didn't come down on him. just said, well, craig i'd be

kind of disappoint if you made a decision like this, and craig said well, containing himself i'll become that. but he was elated base he wanted to go to princeton and he said it was the most joan o generous act of kindness he has seen he went to princeton. his parents paid the difference, sometimes with a credit card and he loved actually being there. and he just -- has felt so grateful if since. it's a story he does tell. >> host: and then michelle, a couple of years later decides well gee i'd like to go to princeton too perhaps. but at the time her counselors at whitney young said, your grades in school were too low and her sights were too high. how did she react? >> guest: she looked at craig and said, well, craig can get into princeton, i can good sweet princeton. i'm going to show them and just as you say the counselor at

whitney young said, you might want to be thinking a little more modestly where you can go. but she applied she wrote a long essay and her mother said she talked her way in. >> oo she did feel she talked her way in. i think a lot of people have looked at -- she told the story about the grades and the scores being not what she hoped they'd be, and this is the era of affirmative action and a lot of people look at michelle going back to those times and saying, she only got in because of affirmative action. you say she actually did something to make her own case. >> guest: she argued her own case. she had done very well at school, and of course, as with so many african-american students who were getting access to these institutions for the first time, she not only went to princeton but she did extremely well there. >> host: was she happy at princeton? >> guest: it was a very interesting remark she made at

that maya angelou's memorial service when she said, looking back on her recent career, she talked about what it was like to be on the campaign trail when she was criticized, and she mentioned a feeling of loneliness and i'vey league classroom. she had a bit of a struggle when he first got there at age 17, and she worked her way through with the help of friend and that is pretty patented michelle obama determination and discipline. >> host: how did the whole affirmative action debate affect her career at princeton and her sense of herself her sense of living in two worlds and being judged as something other than just michelle. >> guest: right. she wrote in her senior thesis that princeton made her -- she said it made me more aware of my blackness than ever before. then in chicago and that was because of the nature of princeton at that time.

where black students were very much in a minority. where we also should remember there were not so many women and also where class was a big question after all. michelle said, i got princeton and i saw some kids with bmws. i didn't know adults who had bmws and it was a place where many black students felt slightly other not welcome. and this was something that she was very aware of, and she and her friend talked about it. >> host: even for michelle's first days on campus, in her dormitory, her first roommate. >> guest: it's a remarkable story. it has to do with the mother of her freshman roommate. this student katherine donly -- this is a story she herself tells with some chagrin at this opinion, as you can imagine. she is in the dorm room. everybody is moving in. and craig robinson shows up and

says is my sister around? and she wasn't, and katherine donnelly went to see her mother, and said, guess what, i have an african-american roommate, and her mother went ballistic and tried to get her daughter pulled out of to that room. she complained to princeton authorities and said my daughter did not come to princeton to be living in a room with a black student. now, princeton to its credit, did not move her. the later did move out but it was a dramatic sign of the time. >> host: indeed. going back to her senior thesis, she designed a survey and sent it it to some 400 black princeton alumni. what was she trying to determine with this survey and what was the essential question that she seemed to be struggling with about blackness privilege. >> the thesis got so much attention and was cardboard cutout of her thesis during the

2008 campaign that michelle obama lived a black life at princeton and all she thought about was race and at one point you might remember juan williams said she is a stokely carmichael in a designer question. i wanted to look at the see this so see what questions were on her mind, what were her formative moments? and the thesis i found intriguing. not spirally for just what her concludes were but the questions she asked. the questions she was asking was, what did it mean to african-americans to rise to the elite in terms of how saw other black people. she had ideas about solidarity, perhaps, or maybe distance, if you rose in terms of class as of course she would, compared with many of the african-american friends who did not good to princeton whom she left behind. depend -- didn't have those

opportunities. she exploder that in her thesis and those questions remained central to her thinking at harvard law school and today. >> host: and then went on to harvard law school. it did seem that was a better fit for her. maybe she was old are or more confident, but seemed to find her stride there and just quite a community. and maybe that was the difference. what did seem to be -- to make harvard law a better experience for michelle? from princeton. >> guest: it was particularly challenging and really interesting intellectual time at harvard. as elean na kagan on the supreme court said all the talk had turned to race by the time barack and michelle were there hard vac all they not the same time. she and friends in the black law school student association had many conversation busy conundrums of purpose.

'conundrums of obligation, where her friend, verna williams, said we were asking questions about not just what it means to be a lawyer. what does it anyplace be a black lawyer? what can the law play-in terms of changing the country for the better? it had been by that point 40 years -- 30 years since brown vs. board of education but the country had hardly overcome its racial past. so they were asking what role they could fulfill as they climbed in society and climbed into the elite. what should they do with their lives that would have highway? they shouldn't just make a whole bunch of money and forget. >> host: and michelle, even at harvard law school, tried to make a difference. tried to change things on theground. talk about that. >> she tide. she was very active at harvard law school, which is no mean

feat. she worked in the legal aid bureau where she and other students worked as essentially volunteer lawyers for clients in need. she handled domestic cases, for example. she would work on a housing case. where someone was being evicted. she was, according to her mentor at the time, charles ogeltree, she was ten neighbor about that. also worked with a couple of her friends to make the alumni gathering, the black law students association gathering a little more purposeful, not just a recruiting binge where they would recruit terrific lawyers or prospectively terrific lawyers, but where there were discussions of -- like the ones in the basement offices of the association, where they were asking how can we do well? that's fine. also how can we do the right thing and do good?

>> host: then after she left harvard law and she was highly recruited, she went back to chicago but chose -- how did she make that decision? dized surprise people who knew her, he family members. >> guest: i think she faced a real dilemma. she wasn't entirely sure what was she wanted to do. she later said that had she not had such extensive student debt from princeton and harvard that she might have again directly to a nonprofit. but in fact she thought it was place where she could pay off bills and see what issues connected. >> host: so she did the corporate law thing for a while. how was chicago different once she came back and n the late

1980s. >> guest: that's an important question, because the city had been changing. it had really changed very dramatically from her grandparents' lives and certainly from when her parents were coming up. the most important thing that happened when she returned to chicago in 1988, that the city had elected a black mayor. harold washington there were opportunities that came with the changing times. one of which was law firms wanted to make sure they had women and minorities who were on the staff and were representing clients and who were available. not just because it was the right thing to do of course that would make a lot of sense but as a business model it was important to have minorities working for the firm. >> host: then also gone were the old dives what they called plantation politics in chicago. now you had black leadership, and a really charismatic mayor

of the city for a change. but something else happened for her at the law firm. >> guest: one minor thing. one minor development. >> host: that summer they were bringing in some associates, and summer interns and asked her to supervise a hot shot young fellow. >> guest: a hot shot, first-year law student from harvard named barack obama. summer associate. she was assigned to be his mentor and they hit it off and -- >> host: i love the story because he was late for their first meeting. and managed to charm his way out of that. >> guest: the tell the story on each other. she was pretty determined not be impressed with him. she had a little photo big ears. didn't look so interesting. he was late. that was not a big moment, but she has told the story now a number of times about how they

liked talking to each other. they connected. they really connected. >> host: i love she said when i first met him i fell in deep like. >> guest: exactly right. she told her mother that summer, i'm done with men. aisle not going to date. >> host: seems they were from very different backgrounds and different temperments even. what attracted them to each other? let start with him. what did he sunny michelle? >> guest: he was dazzled by her beauty he told his associates. and he was struck by her humor. they laughed at the same things. they -- i think that's probably true to this day, according to their friends. they have great seasons humor. he also has written he admired michelle's rootedness, the fact she was anchored in chicago and anchored on the south side and had this close family. >> host: to different from him.

>> guest: he said his family riots were scattered to the four winds and so that appealed to him as well. >> host: and what did she see in him other than the handsome hot shot. >> guest: she talked a little bit later after they were married, she said she admired that he could take a few risks among other things, that in fact he had a large kind of vision and wasn't quite like, certainly the people that worked in the law firm with her but like other guys, and she was intrigued by him. she said there was a moment during the campaign, a moment when she fell in love with him and it was the moment when he took her along to a basement of a church in chicago, where he spoke with some of the community members, some of the chicagoans, with whom he had worked as a community organizer before he had gone off to law school, and

she said he talked that day about the world as it is and the world as it should be, and how we can't give up. to get from one to the other. she said she saw his values that day, saw his passion this is a guy i can believe in. >> host: change she can believe in. when michelle took him home to meet the family, craig said, we gave it's month tops. why was he so debrissous. >> guest: let's barack obama than about michelle obama. they had seemed, according to craig, who has spoken about this that michelle had pretty high standards and she was not going to just kind of wait around for somebody who didn't quite measure up. but they, by all accounts, were very impressed with bronco and very quickly. her mother and her brother. >> host: talk about her mother,

marion who actually said she was a little concerned about baracks being biracial. >> guest: she had a concern because barack obama had a white mother and a black father. then she said she jugs thought might be a little difficult for their future kids. she came to adore him and came to adore him pretty quickly. >> host: barack has said it wasn't until he met michelle's family he began to understand her. so what was he seeing in that household then? what did he see and feel there and connect to and understand? >> guest: he felt something very warm very positive, and very close. and if you remember his upbringing his father and mother split when barack was very very young. he only saw his father once

more when he was ten years 0 old. bay rock lived in indonesia for a while with his mother and her second husband. he went back toly where he lived with his grandparents and felt a little bit all over the place and in michelle's family he felt something that was strong and good and kind of fun sounds like also. >> host: kind of fun. but then when michelle's father died after the decades long battle with multiple sclerosis how did that cement the relationship with barack? he made a promise to her father. >> guest: there's a moment that he writes about that as frasier robinson was being lowered into his grave, that he realized he was becoming part of this family that he was close to michelle he was feeling right and he writes she would take care of her.

>> host: brings at thes to my eyes. but not so fast. he was dragging his feet.getting married. >> guest: he tell as great story of how michelle was ready to be married. he had graduated from harvard law school, been elected profit the harvard law review studying for the bar but one little i he had not dotted what the i in the middle of marriage, and he and michelle were out to a dinner to celebrate his work on the bar exam and in his telling michelle is hard ranging -- haranguing him about marriage and it's time to get on with it. and barack would say what's a piece of paper marriage -- >> host: what's that all about? >> guest: and as anyone who knew michelle robinson could tell him, that argument wasn't going to go too far. but at the opened the dinner, edition certain came -- dessert

came with an engaugement ring, and barack said to her that shut you up, didn't it. >> host: oh, they're so cute. then after the marriage, a time for some soul-searching for both of them. michelle decided she wanted to leave the law firm and took a job in the mayor's office, now a new mayor. what was going on in her haven't at this time? why leave the great job. >> guest: she said that it didn't make her happy. one of the reasons she was asking that question was that a close friend of hers from princeton, anna had died, rather suddenly of cancer. and michelle obama asked herself, do i -- if i were to die tomorrow would i be dying happy? is this how i would want to feel i had spent my life? the answer was no, it wasn't satisfying. she would stand in the window of

this great office tower in downtown chicago and feel literally and figuratively, i can even see my old neighbor. so she thought let me try other things and she applied at city hall. where her resume found its way to one valerie jarrett whose name we n.o.w. at presidential counselor, and first she had spoken with susan schur who would become michelle's chief of staff in the white house. michelle said i don't want to be a lawyer. i think i'm done with that. so susan passed her to valerie and she worked in community development for a couple of years. >> oo and at the same. >> host: and at the same time bronco is starting to think about his own future in politics. he has written, rather than stay and get a job, get rich and get

out, they both chose to stay. >> guest: they did. >> host: and lend a hand. >> guest: i think that's one of the most intriguing periods in their lives in then 1990s they're a young couple. don't have children yet and they made a series of decisions that resonate to this day and it had to do exactly as you say with not getting out or moving up and moving away from the issues that animated them already but in fact digging in, and making the difference, and so michelle went from the law firm to city hall, which was also unsatisfying to the job she said made her happiest ask that was running a program called public allies, an americorps leadership training project. the first thing she shade was entirely her own and in that jab she recruited young people, very diverse array of young people and guided them into internships

for nonprofit, into city agencies and taught them to give back the way she felt she was giving back. >> host: a great job for her. she loved it. but then barack is talking more and more about doing something in politics. she is just not so sure about that. as we followed his -- pretty familiar with the arc of his political story but along the way, at various points, michelle has been very ambivalent and said to him barack, this business is not noble. how did she reconcile her misgivings with ultimately supporting him? >> guest: that's right. so barack entered politics in the illinois state senate, and he would commute to springfield every week when the legislature was in session and he did that job for a very long time, before he entered national politics. he was very committed to it.

and there were -- michelle just was not sure that politics, not only was noble, she wasn't sure it did that much good or for that matter, really was what barack obama could achieve. as a supremely talented man and as someone in whom she believed, she just really wondered whether that was the best use of his talent. no to mention the fact he was gone a lot and didn't pay much. >> host: he was gone a lot at a time when they just had their first child. malia. and then later sasha. and it sounds in your back that there was a great deal of strain in the marriage at that time. was there ever any sort of consideration that, okay, enough we're not going to through with it, or they just were sure they were going to tough it out which they did? >> guest: that's not something i know. i don't know how dark their problems became. what we do know is the story

that barack told about the marriage he wasn't as present in the relationship -- >> he warmed up to it. >> guest: he said he was terribly ambitious man and was working at the university of chicago law school, teaching constitutional law and he was doing some lawyering on the side and he was a state legislator. he had written a book elm he had an awful lot of things he wanted to do, and it took michelle pointing things out to him for him to realize that maybe he needed to do just a little bit more around the house for one thing, and to respect michelle obama's ambitions professional ambitions more than the did. >> host: she ended up giving thoughts on her professional ambitions to become a political spouse. so let's talk a little bit about the role michelle has played for him as a wife, a friend, and

adviser. what sense do you have that she gives him a lot of advice? he has good political instincts. >> guest: this is something he talks about himself and he says that he listened to michelle, who is very much a partner in his enterprises. not the copresident idea. that's not a role she envisions for herself. not a role she wants to play. but people around them say that one friend called her the most do-what-is-right personal in his circle. somebodied called her true north, that same description you used before. but she could be counted on to recognize what matters to people. she has very good instinct for people. >> host: i think you said in the book if barack is a helium balloon, she is the string. >> guest: in the sense of keeping him grounds. think about the speech he gave in 2004 at the democratic

national convention. the red states, blue states, where people were just raving about barack obama -- >> host: that is when he is a u.s. senator. >> guest: about to be, and he is elected later that year, and he is just a hot commodity and michelle was very good then, and i think many people say it is a role she has continued to play, at saying, first of all he is just a man and he doesn't pick up his socks -- >> would heard a lot about the dirty socks. >> guest: she got some criticism for that, for kind of trying to cut him down a little bit. anybody who could imagine i could emass calculate barack obama, doesn't nor barack obama very well. but she also said that she wanted also to lower expectations. people were -- so many supporters were seeing barack obama as the man who was going to save the nation, save -- do some pretty dramatic things, and she said, let's not please put all of that responsibility on this one young man's feet.

so there ira groundedness to her that many of her friends say has been very, very valuable to barack obama. >> host: indeed. all that, she made a pretty famous misstep during the campaign which came to define for many this image of michelle. campaigning in milwaukee barack was doing quite well in the primaries, but she said, for the first time in my adult life i am proud of my country. went on to say not just because bay rock barack is doing well but people are hungry for change. her critics latched on to the middle part of that, for the first time i'm proud of my country. >> guest: she is hearing about it to this day. people say how could you not be proud of your country? you went to princeton harvard? and how could anybody say that? it was just a really clear sign of the polarization of the

country at the time because, of course an awful lot of people said issue get that. a black man named barack hussein obama win no iowa and maybe we ought to feel good about things. think it's interesting and i found out in work on the book, colin paul, the first african-american chairman of the joint chiefs of staff said being in the army helicopter me love my -- helped me love my country. the fact is we have troubled history of race relations in this country, and it was a surprise to an awful lot of people that, guess what, broken broke was on his way to the -- barack obama was on his way to the white house. >> host: indeed and michelle came in as the first lady, and we've gotten used to her seeing her not just at state functions but on youtube dancing with jimmy fallon, she is really made a name for herself as very likeable very approachable.

but still there's that other part of the country that sees her through a different lens, that is a caricature, racialized. a lot of things that are said, cartoons that are done, are just plain mean and hurtful. how does michelle manage that? how does she react to it? is there any sense that it's hurtful for her. >> guest: a couple of ways to look at that. if you think back to the criticism she got on the campaign trail after those remarks, about being proud of her country for the first time, and her speeches on the campaign trail, where she talked about how the playing field is not level, the deck is a little stacked. she felt hurt by the criticism that people weren't understanding her. she felt and she was also

slightly mortified maybe she was hurt had gone her husband's campaign. so she change her tone and re-emerged at the democratic national convention and her numbers went rocketing skyward and never came down. fast forward to the kind of criticism that she gets now and it's not even -- of course chev gets criticism but really just the attacks that are racial. she has not spoken publicly about them, and she frankly has dealt with this with just such a great deal of grace. yet when he yao think about the kinds of things people say about her. when elect officials comment on her body, when elected officials share e-mails that are grotesque caricatures of who she and is are connected to race, it's remarkable. >> host: i wonder how she protects her children from that.

once she got into the white house, she declared chev was going to be mom in chief after so many people had maybe greater expectations. is she is going to be a style maven like jackie kennedy being involved in policy like hillary clinton? a champion for causes like eleanor roosevelt? she said, no, gem going to be mom in chief and maybe pick up a couple of things there. she has managed to really raise those kids. they seem normal. they have a lot of privacy. and they do seem like good kids. >> guest: isn't that interesting, how people project not just on to him so many expectations but on to her. she god to princeton and harvard so she will do policy? and she is a terrific speaker. she'll do that, won't she? she will do more and michelle says my first job here is to make sure my girls are in a good place. that was her first goal. and they do live in this

ridiculous world bizarre the bubble they live in, and they have worked very, very hard to make malia and sasha's world just at bit more normal. >> host: it does feel, too as though this has been -- despite all the bitterness and pathwayship -- partisanship outside the bubble, they have lived a happy life as family in the white house. >> guest: they talk about how this is like living above the store, where barack obama travels so much during his campaigns and worked so hard to get elected and commuting to springfield, and after all michelle obama was driving the car pool and looking after the girls while he was gone, and now they're in one place and mrs. robinson is there after all, and they do talk about how much it means to them, at least to be centered. >> host: now michelle has been very involved in some high-propile campaigns the

let's move, worked with military families. helping kids go to college. she has been the fashion plate mixing the designers with the off the rack clothing. what do you think is really closest to her heart and what will she be remembered for? >> guest: i think that's a great question and the legacy is still being made. she has a couple of years and will only be 53 when they leave the white house in 2017. i do think it's interesting to connect what she is doing in her policy initiatives with where she grew up, the lessons she learned from home, the experienced she had along the way. if you think about her most recent efforts which are on higher education it's about encouraging disadvantaged children to get on with college and to find a way to get further training. if you think about the school nutrition programs, of course she wants all kids to be

healthier, but if you think about who buys the lunches that of course are such a subject of controversy, 70% of those lunches are bought by kids who cannot afford to pay full price. and if you think of her mentoring program and especially her message. this where is i think her legacy will come inch her message is, look at the power of my trajectory and barack obama's trajectory and believe in yourself, believe you can do it, stick with it, and you'll make it. and when you think about this -- this gets back to where we started the conversation that was the lessan she heard. that was the message she heard from marion robinson and frasier robinson back home. >> host: she talks to a lot of school kids, college kids, and reiterates that message over and over again. do you think it's being heard and accepted or are barack and michelle considered exceptional? >> guest: of course they are exceptional. >> host: they are.

>> guest: just what they have achieved and who they are and so on. not everybody is going to be able to live her narrative personally. but for the book i traveled around the country and watched her in action and i always talked with the dids who listened to her to a person they said this is great. she cares about it. she believes in us. we're going to try harder. sounds corny but it is connecting her message. >> host: she has come into washington -- she has out in the country the cadre of supporters, black women in particular, who will say michelle, we got your back. we don't care what other people say. we've got your back. has that been kind of extraordinary to see what she has been able to do to empower and to give a sense of confidence and support from black women around the country. >> guest: in the book i draw a

contrast. a talk about a couple different places she spoke in 2012 during a campaign, and one it's a luncheon in maine where lobster is serve and she rouses the crowd to -- and then just juxtaposed that with a meeting of black women on the south side of shuck, near woodlawn, which is where michelle obama grew up, which is where a racen in the sun was set. >> host: an interesting side note. >> guest: at the very time that michelle's parents were living in wood lan "a raisin in the sun" was made there i went to a meeting in westwood lawn and in contrast to the gathering in maine or gathering she had in manhattan, not long before, the women -- i'm woman would look the door behind them to make sure nobody could get in and they came to listen to michelle making a pitch to help elect --

re-elect in this case -- barack obama, and i talked with women in that room, and they have such faith in michelle obama. it was so wonderful to them that they could see someone in the white house who looked like them, something that few ever imagine keyed be possible, and they said exactly what you just said. we have her back and one woman said remember when she put her arm around the queen and people criticized her. and it's a very natural michelle obama gesture. she is embracing and this woman said she into put her arm around the queen again get up and get out and be exactly who she wants to be. >> host: kind of interesting you brought that up about her hugging the queen. she is known to give people hugs and she has this aura of openness. but she doesn't give a lot of energy and you didn't get to interview her for this book.

and i'm wondering how you feel you did get to know her? what was the key to understanding her? and there is sort of this little wall there that, despite all the openness, there's a wall with michelle. >> guest: i think this is not unique in michelle obama as first lady, but it is very clear that she is disciplined and she controls her conditions as best she can. she chooses exactly where she will go, and to whom she will grant interviews, and so on. to try to develop a true portrait of her i was lucky for one thing to have a lot of time. i worked on this for more than four years and there were dozens and dozens of people, i'm so happy to say who trusted know tell their story. there were mentors friends from different parts of her life, relatives. i also was thrilled to discover that michelle obama even though she doesn't grant very many

interviews to the reporters who cover her she gives many, many speeches, she does lots of q & a's, sometimes with high school student whose ask the best questiones and aread hundreds of thousands of words that michelle obama has written or spoken so tried to include her voice and have her voice carry through the book. the book opens and finishes with her talking to high school kids and ends with her talking at maya angelou's memorial service. >> host: she has used her voice from the bully pull pit but some of the critics not from the far right but what you consider her side of the aisle have -- could she have done more? >> guest: i think that is one of the enduring questions of michelle obama's time in the white house. could she do more? and could she -- she has critics from women to her left, although

that's a bit simplistic, who say couldn't she be more activist and speak out more? i think it would be very interesting to see not only what she does in this rather freer time that she and the president have, i think she is already speaking out more than she felt comfortable speaking out in the first term, but especially what she does every when she leaves. >> host: what do you think. >> guest: i believe her when she says she is not entirely sure. she is doing some writing. she also thinks. >> host: writing her own auto biography. >> guest: i don't know whether it's a memoir or what she'll do in this -- with her writing. i think though, she has made clear that she intends to continue to work on education. and remembering how important education was to her own life, and the messages she heard and the messages she is sharing. the calls outside indication the

most important civil rights challenge of our time and expects to keep working on that. >> host: that speech goes back to her own roots the importance of education with those children of the great migration and on to her generation. so that would be a wonderful cause for her to maintain. some people say she should get in politics. something about hillary clinton. do you see any chance michelle obama would run for political office? >> guest: not only has she shade said no, but barack obama was asked, what if you heard that your wife was in politics? he said, i think she would have been -- i would conclude she had been abducted by aliens. it does not look to be in the cards. >> host: do you feel on the campaign trail though, perhaps for hillary clinton? >> guest: she hasn't tipped her hand on that but i think it's fair to say that she