shington times" that no one had ever saw. no one ever saw it. every day ironically every part of my case every part of the investigation everything going on in the grand jury was leaked to the press. i dimly care. i didn't know it. it has been leaked to the press every day. that is okay. i say one thing, you're attempting to influence the jury pool can sometimes be unfair. thank you. [applause]

>> and now i'm booked tv stranger program harbored business school professor rosabeth moss kanter discusses transportation infrastructure. she's interviewed by rodney slater former secretary of transportation from 1997-2001. >> host: rosabeth moss kanter, welcome. >> guest: thank you, secretary slater. >> host: and interested in getting to this book and not in our audience have the appreciation i've had in getting through some of the pages and following the storyline. it's a wonderful storyline. what i found found interesting if you find on trend started in the practice talking about leadership. were you thinking about a book on leadership when you started or how did you get to that?

>> leadership is one of my big topics from a preoccupation and that was what i was going to do but i kept getting struck by this issue of infrastructure literally not only the facts and figures about what was happening in america and the sad state of much of our infrastructure, the need for innovation and change, but i was also tripping on potholes like everybody is. i was stuck in traffic. as you're inside stories of inner-city people who couldn't get the jobs or had to take two or three buses in the subway to get to school. so that plus going abroad and riding the train in shanghai where we went to another city. first of all, subway connections to the train. the train was so fast we went to another city in 20 minutes but otherwise took an hour and a half by bus.

so all those things together made me feel this is a really important issue and i have dirty been talking to you. you were such a help in this whole project. i had already been talking to you about the need for a new mission for america. you have been putting for a new vision at the end of the clinton restoration when you're leaving office in unfortunate the world changed in 2000. we had a lot of defense spending a lot of a lot of other preoccupations and then a financial crisis. so we haven't made the investments we need to make. i thought this is so important to the future of the country and part of the u.s. competitiveness process at harvard business school. we care about making sure america is strong and also the american economy and quality of life are as excellent as they could possibly be, that we are once again leaders in the world.

so i put aside where i thought was my leadership work to write this. and then it was really interesting that i ended up concluding it is all about leadership. many other details. it is all about leadership in the leadership for innovation collaboration big vision is as important as engineering. this isn't a technical issue. we could do this. we have the technical skills in america. we lead the world. it's just not that we always supply around strength. leaders need to step up to this and i started out saying the sorry state of our infrastructure. in fact there are many reasons for hope. we see many great projects. with enough public agitation and

discussion, which have also been so active and involved in we could really get leaders to step up. that is why i wrote about 10 felt to not only suggested a book about transportation infrastructure, but also suggests what we have to do in america, which is we have to move. we have to get moving. >> host: we do. we have to leave again. the subtitle of the book talks about putting america back in the leadership position when it comes to infrastructure investment. let me say this. i want to actually come back to the leader ship and i've got a lot to say as ours going forward. let's just unpack it a bit. you do something interesting and transportation with more concrete and steel. you talk about it as a family concern, business concern. let's do not a little bit.

let me also ask you about allison, natalie and jacob. and how you actually dedicate the book to them and then you tell us to think about it to some degree from their days meaning infrastructure investment. >> guest: thank you. allison, natalie and jacob are three lovely children. we need to think about the issue not only for business and the economy but also children who are growing up now. i've had the privilege of reading books to those children, including some of their favorites and some of my favorites, which i think are really great metaphors for what we need to do. we'll get to the rail industry, policy and all of that. but i wanted to also signaled this is a family-friendly issue. a high proportion of household

budget for an average family of four and transportation. it's a big deal. allison, natalie and jacob like folks like doc or suze, zero the places you'll go and in the middle of that book and i was startled to see that the care there is bopping around and objects to a place in the meadow called the waiting place waiting for the trains to go the bus to come planes to go. it was all about transportation. the rest of the books that you've got to get out of the waiting place and its inspirational for kids. you can do it. we have to do more than now. the other is the little engine that could. that is truly a metaphor for america. i can't imagine not vote being

written other places although other places have a generosity of spirit like the little engine. the little engine is the one that stepped in to kerry for kids when all the big engines were too busy, too important. the establishment wasn't listening. to me that is a signal we also have to count on entrepreneurs community people to push congress and to do some of the work. that is why i started the book dedicated to them. it is the future we are really talking about. >> host: is interesting you mention the congress and president and we can get a little bit into the policy. i know that yesterday you were part of the kickoff of infrastructure week with the vice president and also the secretary fox. as we get to the end of the

month for congress is once again extended the transportation bill, this time for the 302nd time if they have to extend it again it will be 33 times that they've just extended a month or two or six months or whatever. a clarion call was we need a long-term plan for infrastructure investment. do you think that's important as a think about moving america back into the leadership post? >> guest: we are going to count on the small engine and the small engine will produce many innovations that will help. but we do need the big engines and many long-term funding. when funding is subject to short-term then nobody can play on. you can't really plan to upgrade. maybe to impact some of the

potholes on rose but you can't plan projects that reinvent it. for allison natalie and jacob, and that belong term but this is also a short-term issue because of the amount of time. we lose productive time stuck in traffic. the first responders they can't get places quickly enough because they can move on the rose. long-term funding would reduce some of the political uncertainty. that would attract more investors. that would be helpful to the public sector because if we had more private-sector investors, it would now have to come out of public money. but they won't necessarily invest if they think the public will run out immediately and that there's no public will. they are looking for long-term commitments. this is both the u.s. private equity which is now looking at

infrastructure and its sovereign wealth funds from other countries, infrastructure investment funds. there is money out there that would like to invest. it's not simply politics. it's the uncertainty when it's short-term fixes. not something we want to authorize here by here. i feel the same way about air traffic control. when not subject to congressional budget cycles, they can't also make investments on term just even intellectual investment in new technology that is experimental because they might start some even then it's cut off. >> host: sure. you mentioned the issue of cost. i thought immediately about how you started off the boat where you say stuck on the way to the future. that is the first chapter. this first paragraph, a couple

sentences are worth reading for sure. the average american commuter wasted total of 38 hours in traffic or year. this is the average. some would be even

with college normalizing. okay, that is normal. let's just build a maxtor hour into the commute. and so leave early, come home late. don't see the family. there are so many costs and consequences, so we have to solve. that is an immediate problem that requires long-term investment because if all we did

was repair the road or repair the train tracks, which really need it, we still wouldn't be heading for the future. we are growing in population. we need to do some things. posts go in that paragraph you said we lose about $121 billion in cost for fuel and lost time and congestion annually and that is over 70 billion poor people just stuck in traffic. what about the person who says putting a disc and listen to a book on tape. >> guest: as i said, we are very good at making sense of something or making it seem normal and working around it. you could listen to that took on tape in your office or at home with the kids. so we weren't meant to live in

our cars. auto companies might like to have people -- >> guest: >> host: the cup holder was one of the biggest innovation. but we don't want them to become living rooms. but it's also the fuel the time the frustration. we've had severe weather. there was a time in 24 teen were cars couldn't move. for 20 hours. that is scary because aside from cramped space people could die.

it doesn't have to be that way. that's the other move there are solutions already in place in some parts of the country. >> host: it is interesting you said we don't have to accept it. we have actually never accept a good normal. this is a country that has always thought that tomorrow could be better than today. you mentioned the intercontinental railroad. you mentioned the interstate system. it's not like we haven't dreamed big and produce big in the past. what do you think of this moment now? this is going back to the question of leadership. what are your thoughts there? you touch on many of these in the book. >> guest: in the history have to look at the transcontinental

railroad. many people point to that as the glorious past and why couldn't it be like that today. when i dug into the history, which is fascinating it wasn't glorious because it took decades of discussion and no one did it until abraham lincoln -- in the civil war. is not amazing. there were a lot of compromises that have to be made. it didn't work perfectly. the track started to be laid from the east coast and the west coast and they didn't meet in the middle. so that took extra money. and there were tales of corruption. that was how jpmorgan and john d. rockefeller made their fortunes and started monopolies. but we can envision that big project. we're envisioning the growth of the u.s. from coast-to-coast and

have used that territory and i'm not connected by stagecoach. the better route connected and made it possible for farmers to shift their product ease to get good coming back last. and made it possible for settlements to spring up. you know that while from your time as secretary of transportation that every time you put in a transit stop you get economic growth. people build around that. so we did it then. as i was going to say there's lessons for today because it wasn't all that easy. and the leader who managed to forge the coalition get the political will. like the transcontinental railroad and had a defense rationale and it was a big bold project. the 41000-mile with a huge price tag.

virginity is and it helps the american economy after the war. it helps settlements because the suburbs were already there, that they could grow even more because people could live in the green suburbs supposedly and get the cities. cities were abandoned. the defense rationale that i've had for all the projects including spot nick, the space race cold war, does investment some of them aren't little serious because president eisenhower who wanted the interstate highway said we could move troops and evacuate cities. in new orleans in 2005 it was clear you can evacuate cities by everybody piling in their cars and heading to their interstate

that does not work. those are really great rationales of the time. they also say we are stuck in the past. would have been had big provisions are big enough vision since the 1950s maybe the early 1960s of the world this project called planar future. we had a beautiful infrastructure development. a gorgeous bridge in boston, a signature bridge we say. it's like a piece of sculpture people admire. other fantastic rages. the golden gate rage. >> host: i thought this discussion. >> guest: they are beautiful works of art. they are not a vision for what we need to do to help connect people and move across those bridges. so we needed time for a new vision that takes into account the 21st century.

that is what you try to do in your vision 2000. >> host: you mention that earlier and i wanted to come back to it. one thought before we leave here. it is interesting that fdr during his administration thought of this national system of roads and you are right. it took a few years of jazz station if you will. but the emphasis on defense during the eisenhower years to move it forward. the question is there a way for the issue of competitiveness and i need to be might replace what has been the driver of defense and security. >> that is certainly a rationale to resume with the business community and with officials local, state, federal, et cetera.

we can sell it to the american public jobs but i'm not sure by itself it is enough to sell the public. people now china is investing a great deal that it was part of their rebuilding after world war ii. it's a little remote to say we want to be number one on rankings and indicators. so my thought what i'm saying in this book and want to say to the people elected leaders, many of us can be leaders whether we are holding off for not. i'm trying to be a thought leader here. we need a vision about mobility is so essential. you talk about transportation of the circulatory system of the

nation. we have to get where we want to go. about catching up and getting them as we compete with other countries. we have to continue to be the land of opportunity. it is the state but we have to get that back. this is about building the class, restoring the middle class. it is all about reducing inequality bee of the things that keeps people poor if they can't get to jobs. we have to make things affordable for people, accessible for people. if we wrapped mobility and competitiveness together, they have a shot and we should all be starting for conversation and figuring out a good way to talk about it because it was on national defense. the interstate highway when i

looked at the history, they were never called the national defense highway act, but everybody referred to them that way and everyone knew spot that was about beating russia. >> host: emphasis on not science all of those. so the land being on the moon if we don't have as imagination about the future and this is such an exciting area to excite imagination. we have entrepreneurs streaming up all kinds of things that some wild. it is inspiring. >> guest: it is it is. you mentioned china and japan. as you know, china is now

promoting its one belts one road initiative where they try to sort of bring up to date the old silk road and it's all about trade and it's all about participating in the global economy. as you know you know about this as well but i was recently in japan. they were celebrating their 50th anniversary now. and now they look at advanced technology clearly beyond that. there are some discussions on this for matlab. that is the future and we've got to be a part of it. >> host: nsn visit and competitive because they necessarily want to beat them. we can learn from them. we are not always as good at that. but yes i've been in japan and

britain those trains. i landed on a flight in tokyo and i had a colleague who was going to escort me to her back. we are on the train faster than you can get how far is osaka, maybe 100 miles away, but we are there. when i found out the bullet train has only an average in the last few years deviated from schedule 32 seconds on average. try telling that to anybody who's taking amtrak in the northeast corridor. >> guest: that is right.

i know your good friend mike is dukakis is very interested with the vice president. hopefully we can get it. i tell a great story and the book about amtrak being innovative and getting the government regulators to be a little more flexible in both and racing with speed and pennsylvania on the keystone corridor raising the speed value in a mere 20 miles per hour, but was enough to make a lot of people abandon their cars to take the train to commute. it was just enough time saved. we could start by doing those things. then when people have faith, that is what i mean about small

things. then maybe they'll see the power of big things and as you know besides the idea maybe the northeast corridor would take many decades, but there are private companies who are investing in high-speed rail in texas, texas central between houston and dallas and florida all aboard america. said these are private companies with the vision. they certainly would benefit from loans are matching funds. but they are willing to invest and in miami but there is a desperate need for light rail for an expansion of what there is there is now talk bad it's building a terminal on the northern side of the city. gee that could be a place where we could connect light rail. again, the private company would

jumpstart what would then be a public investment. that is exciting. and then, this idea we all love trains in a way. even though we may not like them we play with these vehicles. think about how many times the song the wheels on the bus go round and round. they shouldn't excite people's imagination. but again people don't think about it. that is why i wrote a book that tells the story. but what i thought was interesting when you told me that you were going to the 50th anniversary of the bullet train and i started thinking about that was a post world war. you're a priority had the trains introduced really high-speed rail around 1980. our speed is nothing compared to

bears. we could celebrate the 100th anniversary of the overhead wiring. we have antique center system and they work really well. what happens is we know this from our personal lives. maintenance is in a vision. we hate events. we had a beautiful new shiny house or new shiny apartment and i have who every time in every painting that a cabal moving rather than painting. a little bit that has been the story of america. you abandoned. you have candidates that we have hollowed out part of cities that now should be highly desirable because they are close to jobs and people could ride bikes or walk but they have deteriorated so badly. postcode yes yes. it is interesting the way we sometimes as you noted turn from

matt which is not quite as spacey as it used to be. you referred to some of the word we did during our time in office. a part of that was trying to introduce high-speed rail. the good thing is we've seen a significant increase in ridership in the northeast corridor but we need to see that across the system. i remember going to new orleans innovation around the country. both president clinton vice president gore was very, very interested in that. one reason we came forth a position piece you mentioned we called it the changing face of transportation family look for the year 222025 because we have been successful in passing legislation before us. the recognition with a growing economy with an opening of our border is an with markets around

the globe with peace and prosperity to be enjoyed that we need to think boldly about the future and we attempted that in this work. i'm excited about secretary fox and his beyond traffic report. in your book because you and mrs. gray. you don't say the president has to be accepted. you actually start to need a less and bring everyone into focus about what can be. he talked about the city is hollering out, but you also have and the present of transit and infrastructure. tell us about that. >> guest: i would love to.

it has been important people in the northeast corridor. the right of ways that were purchased 100 years after of some none that mean it can't go up to speed. it has to slow down. and there are issue tracks that need to be repaired. i want the vision of the future and would look at that. but i believe in repair, renew and rant rant. even to get the benefits we have now. this is known to people in various regions around the u.s. you know those visions you had

when you were in office, they were really great. it is hard to understand how they get so bogged down in partisan gridlock at the national level. for example denver, a city in which only 6% of commuters use anything other than a car. it's very car centric yet they put in my rail. they refurbished unit stationed in washington. it is on the way. when you do that, it also becomes a terminus for other things. it becomes the city center. the neighborhood around it is better. it's easier to get everything from taxes taxis because there's better access to it. denver has done that. other cities have had plans.

i think you can get collaboration and consensus a lot better at the regional level. he posted the benefits of the projects to them and it isn't as though that means everyone is selfish. they only wanted if it's for their and also they don't want it in their neighborhood if it's going to be disruptive. yeah, there is that streak and people end up with visionary leaders and lots of different parts of the community at the table, you can get support. people think sometimes it's not the officials, not the business community. they don't like taxes, whatever it is. this is really striking to me. in houston, there is a vote several decades ago in favor of a light rail system, public transit system.

and in general but a second vote was taken about specifics and never shot down and it was the poor communities who were against it because they have been left out of the process. they didn't feel it was necessarily going to be good for them because all of the parking places her in the suburban areas. so it was not part of the comprehensive vision about what to do about houston. it took 20 years. it was 20 years later they houston finally got light rails. so when i say it's all about leadership, you can call about policies but the leaders have to do is understand how many stakeholders they bring to the table. when they do that the business community would like to see transportation that its employees to work and have often pushed public officials.

they pushed former mayor daley to think about doing something with o'hare airport, a new runway. south we can get the support regionally that doesn't mean states have to pay for it themselves because all of these things spin states. regions are much broader and we need national standards and national vision, national strategy and national funding which doesn't pay for it but it is the accelerator. it is the rationale. back to your earlier question and long-term funding and a federal role but we cannot the region as the dreamers and implementors. we cannot the various potential investors and we cannot have

remote of transportation into the plant. i know a big part of your vision with intermodal connections. we should be connected. >> host: most people don't care which mode is fun to get there. >> guest: if we have those into that regionally, then there would be room. entrepreneurs to get excited as they are dr and it's too limited. yes there are cities doing great things and cities have had real problems trying to fix the problem and that often spans political administrations. and chicago bears three great things going on in chicago that i love. one, mayor emmanuel inherited, but wants to accelerate the untangling of something that everybody is watching will identify with because everybody

has been stopped at a train crossing for the churning tracks cross the road you are wrong. there are a lot of unnecessary deaths in america. a startling statistic because people in cars don't believe the gates and try to go around them thinking they could beat the train. aside from i don't want to talk about only depressing things. aside from suicide by train there's also fatalities that are unnecessary. that is in part because they passed the road because they're old. in chicago, this has been a particular problem because a quarter of all rail traffic in america goes through chicago in a single system. it also dates back to the system separate railroads whenever they wanted.

there are crossing at angles and the commuter trains are using the same tracks. they have priority. commuter passenger. light rail, commuter passenger, freight. but a long freight train could tie up traffic for 20 minutes. so more dire details. >> host: let me ask this. this is what you're talking about. you have a segment called the slowest six miles in america. so this is in chicago, right? go on. >> guest: a freight train could get from l.a. to chicago in 30 hours in approximately could take 24 hours just across a short stretch in chicago.

when there is a problem like there was bad weather this wasn't even a recent bad weather. when there is a problem, the delay in cargo moving effect that the whole country for months. post-arafat is the thing we don't recognize or fully appreciate. >> guest: right now the right now the tide of imports in los angeles. same thing. you can't get good at it been ordered for other places her get her good loud to sell to other places. the mayor is changing that, that he inherited the project because in the late 90s in your admin is ration, chicago started the chicago rail. there's so many acronyms. so finally, it started some

federal funding. 72 different projects to build overpasses underpasses and to straighten this out. a lot of them have been completed, but there's a lot less to go. i was there watching a particularly tough one. they've done a lot of innovative things. is there a ford plant in chicago would've lost the plant and all their jobs if they had done that because the cars go outside rails or by trucks some of them. because of entangling to have an instant bridge there. that sounds like maybe it's flimsy but it not. we did this in it.

we had instant bridges over 14 weekend, 14 different bridges were rolled into place in a weekend. they are not going to be hugely long. i thought it was going to be a part, a real green space developed the neighborhood nearby which is not top of this but nearby will be a more vibrant neighborhood. they're all kinds of suppliers that have sat as they are. besides the four jobs. it is an project under way. it is taking time and it's going to run out of money. so because there's still a lot of projects. so that's one that's very promising. i believe every place in america where train tracks cross street

erodes every place. i will take a long time. >> guest: >> host: it will. with the federal brotherhood administration during my years at the department. look at instant bridges documentation. that's the kind of thing that if we had the will, we could make that a goal. anyway go ahead. >> host: i wanted you to go into some other things mayor emmanuel is doing. innovative financing and the structure on. >> guest: infrastructure is on the list for enlightened mayors and governors. sometimes it may make speeches they say in the structure and everybody starts nodding off in the ideas and go on to something else. it's really quite exciting. the findings as a part of this

because this issue of longer-term funds that are detached from political decisions. so he created essentially an infrastructure bank for the city of chicago. there's been much talk of a national infrastructure bank. it hasn't gone anywhere in congress. other countries have infrastructure bank. big funds. china has set but brazil has one. so it's certainly subject to oversight. you can get professional community looking up the projects without thinking about political porkbarrel stuff or whatever. and you can have a long term vision and do a lot of things that like you cannot loan fast heart of it. it doesn't all have to be giving the money. so he did that. states have infrastructure bank

but they're not all using them. that was very visionary. spring in the national press that did to be mayor of chicago. two other things i love in chicago that are happening now. one you could call incremental but it will make a big difference. it isn't really about that for anybody who's listening. it might save a few seconds here few seconds there, but at the period it is essentially dedicated lanes with life forms preferably the plot lines. it doesn't count as trent that befits the lane. but the platform does if it means first of all people can wait on the platform and board at the level of the bus. a lot of great things that does. it can go a little faster here and there.

it can have implications across the whole blind. this is not a u.s. innovation although many cities now have it. this is one where we learned -- the first one i think was encouraged to you that brazil. >> guest: i've been so bad my tenure now. guess that the man who got adam plays. he made of grains that he well before it was fashionable. but now paris has been bold. i was watching the assist speed bias and stuck in traffic in a car. it's good and we can be visionary and do great community things with it. here's the other thing. because they try to think comprehensively, they call it complete straight commotions

also a phrase used by other places. complete streets means they are trying to not only help the buses go faster but up in the street for pedestrians, have them all colored vest and modernize the whole thing. so in digging up downtown streets to put in the platform they also fixed the water pipes and since chicago has simulate aging water pipes come out we heard about him that were hollowed out more than 100 years old. technology in chicago was using some of the old right now that are not us was using them for fiber optics. so by having a complete vision, you can do everything. and so one of the other cool things of course in chicago wasn't the first but

ridesharing has this political moment, to good bike sharing is really being used. i feel in some places you're taking your life in your hands to ride a bus and people wearing all black, how can they do that, what are they insane? you can't see them. i will tell you, that is a serious point. we have to work on it because what we have in america is to have a car culture. i love my cars. we all love our cars. but millennial still of their cars so much. it used to be every time you get together the guys that always talk about their cars. now they'll talk about this marks owned and technology. the one he'll start getting drivers licenses at the same way. they are not owning cars at the same rate.

that's my modification on which all the other cars. i'm going to go on. we've been car centric and now we have to be complete if we have to have the cars move over. we don't yet have a bite culture. we know how to be polite drivers although we do have road rage but we don't have a culture of bikes. they put in traffic lanes with a pipe symbol said they would notice. it is sometimes the bikers fall. cars have to know not to feel you want to cut off a bike. it takes time to develop the culture. an amsterdam first bike sharing, there was a vast trippers because people stole the bikes and didn't ring them back.

it took a while for people to learn. i celebrate halloween on the cusp of change. and how we think about transportation and infrastructure and the technology to do with. >> guest: >> host: i agree. that is the exciting part. i would like to focus on that as we move to a close. as soon as he touched on i went to chapter four worked hard about smart growth meet the smartphone. you are all that in your comments. let's unwrap it a bit more. you start out the chapter's same transportation by road must get smarter. developments in the past decade comes more from sophisticated sensors gps cloud computing from the big data analytics are challenging old business models and causing industries to collide. that is you putting on your

leadership hat and also your harvard business hat. let's talk more about that. you mentioned millennialist. they definitely change the way we see things induce teens and frankly changing the way we have to live going forward. let's talk about a little bit more. that's very exciting. >> guest: even before the smartphone, we were already beginning to use sensors for traffic management. it wasn't really visible to the consumer yet. but the smartphone, which is really not that old. the apple iphone 2007. also full disclosure, we both love verizon. verizon wireless network, verizon is the company's 2008 and the wireless business has been growing to not way. but as mary barrow at general motors pointed out she said you

know, the cell phone was originally referred to in america as a car phone. i remember having a very clunky car phone. she was right. she said the auto industry missed it by not jumping on it. they jumped on it with some wireless connected emergence the services, but didn't really jump on it. and now i think they are jumping because everybody is now in the transportation business. we are transporting data of more than people. google is in the auto business. will google actually build a car? apple doesn't actually make the iphone. they make the software. google is colliding with nearly every industry. they also try to get collaboration. we don't know.

the roads are getting smarter because they put incense there's, in fact electronic tolling. which you can change the prize some people make a decision. while i pay a little more to go at this hour or not and it's hard to talk about the former deputy mayor of new york mayor of indianapolis. the can't talk about congestion pricing because it puts

other similar services are going to be more worthy salmon on demand or where you get information about it that way where to meet the private band that is going to take a whole bunch of people on a common root and no more than a five and a walk outside u.n. to be there and how far to walk. this will revolutionize how we get around and it's very exciting. aviation technology will help glide to a landing. it is exciting. >> host: just a couple of things i'm not. i have often said that possibly the most important thing to happen during our term in office, meaning during the clinton administration, may not have been the passage of the major pieces of legislation and

infrastructure. they were significant and big. it was through an executive order that president clinton allowed for the commercial and the civilian years of gps in its most sophisticated form. that is what enhance the capability of fedex to basically say i can have it to you at a certain time because i know how to get there. i know how much time and it's going to take. i can read the congestion maps being developed by google. all of that is now coming into play and it was that executive order that is basically what was a military defense type apparatus technology and applied at to the business community. >> guest: that is so right. so right that made a huge difference. also that was defense. the internet was defense.

and around the same time. the internet open public use and never some visionary members of congress that understood that there needs to be some regulation, but you left it out then. gps really huge. it is striking to me that there are now these little experiments because the uber at pizza hut says we will track your delivery for you with an app. i'm thinking wait a minute, i track my fedex passages in ups shipment of the time. we can do it. we have been doing it. consumers haven't seen it or seen the possibilities. there's no reason why we can't. these technologies to sneak in an often they are coming from defense. it's a little more if we are not spending on r&d in the same way. therefore we have to spend directly. i know how much defense