sally kitch talks about the experiences of professional afghan woman and the plight in the country following years of civil war and strife. she is joined by two of the women profiled in the book. [inaudible conversations] >> good afternoon everyone. my name is michael could you goleman. i am the senior associate for south asia with the asia program. thank you all for coming. before i forget, just want evidence to thank our

institutional cosponsors, which are the wilson center's middle east program and also the wilson center's global women's leadership initiative. i also wanted to welcome those viewing us on c-span. as you all know, afghanistan is experiencing a great period of uncertainty. international combat troops have left a fragile new unity government is in place. the taliban has been ramp upping its attacks of late, including in kabul and once again there are rumors of attempts to start peace talks between the afghan government and the taliban in recent days the chinese reportedly hosted taliban and afghan government representatives for informal discussions about the possibility of talks. so this all makes for a very tenuous time in afghanistan but also and especially for afghan women, given the horrific track record that the taliban have in terms of women's rights.

there are a number of afghan women serving in leadership roles and professional roles who have done and are doing brave and remarkable things for other women, and for their country on the whole. their stories tend to get drowned out by all the news of taliban attacks of governance challenges and the like, but they really have important revealing stories to tell. and today we will be hearing from two of these women leaders. to my left jamil afghany and via skype, marcia. they're the focus of a new book by dr. sally kitch call "contested terrain: reflections of afghan women leaders." it is a very memorable and moving read. i it's available for purchase outside the room. this afternoon dr. custom i

kitch will provides background on the book and we'll then hear from the guests. they'll each tell their story. dr. kitch will come back and say words about the implication of the women's stories and the challenges of afghan women on the whole for u.s. policy in afghanistan. and we should then have ample time for questions and discussion you. should have the bios of the speakers in front of you so i'll be very brief. dr. kitch is the founding director of the institute for humanities research at arizona stay university and al the regions professor of wimp's studies. before at arizona state she was at ohio state university. jamil is founder of the -- organization which promotes the rights of women and girls by looking with families and the acceptance of girls schooling in

rural areas and also with imams who instruct congregations what the koran says about women's right and the seasoned a women's network and many other things she has done as well. marcia is a judge. she was sworn in as a judge just before the taliban eliminated all women professionals. this is in 1995. she founded the afghan women judges association good in two which was later banned by afghanistan supreme court. she then worked for a number of international organizations to advance women's rights, and then she founded the afghan progressive law organization to fight injustices. she fled afghanistan in 2011, fearing for her life as a result of her work with international groups and is now in canada, which is where she joins us this afternoon from toronto specifically. so she remains involved in associations working on afghan

issues. do you didn't come hear to here me so i'll let the program formally begin and let dr. kitch begin. >> thank you very much, michael. and thank you all for being here. it's wonderful to see some interest in this topic. i'd like to tell you a little bit and situate myself with regard to these women's lives and how i came to write this book. it was really out of character for my scholarship because i'm an americanist. i do historical and theoretical work within the u.s., and i regret that i had very little involvement with international women's issues, until the 1990s, when i along with a lot of other americans began learning about the treatment of afghan women under the taliban.

and this treatment was attracting some attention from our government, not as much as you might think. some activists some celebrities who were climbing on the band wagon. some of you may remember, mavis leno who declared openly that she was forming an organization because she thought that american women were afghan women's last best hope. the feminist majority foundation was raising awareness of the taliban's activities, and actually was -- they were pretty effective in keeping a pipeline from going through afghanistan that the tall began were supporting -- the tall began were supporting and president clinton was almost ready to support that -- there was definitely a

lot of agitation and i was aware what i was hearing about was probably part of one of the most significant gender issues of my lifetime. so i began to be interested in it. i was one of the americans who sort of had to look at the map to make sure where afghanistan was. and i didn't quite know what i would do about this until two events happened. one was of course september 11th and the shock that i think many americans felt at this form of activity on our soil. we had not been accustomed to that although we had lots of warnings about it, many of which were ignored. and i was puzzled a little bit that the response to that was going to be war in afghanistan. i understood why. i knew the thought was nat osama

bin laden was being hidden there and the taliban were hiding him and so on. but it wasn't really until november of that year that i began put something of the pieces together. and that is when first lady laura bush gave a speech that -- in place of her husband if think it was the first and maybe the only time that a first lady took the saturday spot that the president normally uses to converse with the nation. and in that speech, she defended the invasion of afghanistan as a way to help afghan women. in fact what she said, among other things, was the fight against terrorism is a fight for the rights and dignity of women. and i had a very strong reaction to this claim. the strength of my reaction was

in part because i wondered where all this gender sensitivity had been before then but i was especially worried because i thought, i wonder if anyone asked afghan women whether bombing their country was the best way to support their rights. and my suspicion was that they had not been asked this question and this triggered a response that in my field we call about them without them. in other words the discussion of women's future and plight, decisions about their lives policies about what they will do and won't do, without any consultation with the women whatsoever and this was a characteristic of the colonial world. we were not the only ones doing it but the british were famous for it as well. but it was a bit shocking to see

in 2001 that this was still going on, and that this decision about freeing afghan women from the taliban was being made really in isolation from them and from their needs. so i got together with colleagues of mine at ohio state, where i was at that time, and we asked ourselves what could people like us do to express a different response to the plight of afghan women under the taliban and now under attack by international force. personally i wanted to say something else to those women. and what we decided we could do -- we didn't have the millions of dollars necessary perhaps to build programs and so on but what we can do -- what we could do is listen to them, and that did not seem to be on the agenda of the government at that

point. so we put together a conference that was going to be at ohio state in 2005 by the time we put all the pieces together, and we invited nine women to come and just talk to us for about five days tell us their views. tell us what they did on behalf of afghan women and the the meantime i was learning so much about women's activism during the previous 25 years maybe 30, that women had in afghan been active on their own behalf and on behalf of social justice for all afghans. they'd been working toward peace. they'd been -- they were war weary, way past war weary, and they -- i couldn't tell that our government was conferring with any of them either. so we got these women to ohio state and listened to them, and

we wrote a couple of articles, my colleague and i margaret mills. maybe some of you might know who she is, very long career in afghanistan. and then i left ohio state. but the two people that i really wanted to follow, the two people who touched my heart and showed me the direction that activists could go were the two women you're seeing right here. jamil and marsa. so i asked them if i could stay in touch and if i could continue their stories and hear what was happening to them, and worry.them which i did a lot of and after a couple years i got the research money together to actually meet up with them again, and we did meet, this time in istanbul because they said afghanistan wasn't safe for either me or them to be seen with me.

and they wanted a respite too from what had been going on, and at that meeting we -- they came toll the room that i had reserved for us to talk in, and they told me very clearly that the reason they were there is that they wanted their stories to be heard. that is the reason why we are here, marcia said. this is important research. it must be done. and so i said, okay. i'll do what i can. and we had about four days of interviews, all of which i taped and have been transcribed on which at the book is based in which they discuss their perspectives on everything about afghan politics and history and their experiences as leaders and being able to be taken seriously as leaders and they tell wonderful stories. i'm sure you'll hear a couple today. the book is filled with their

stories. and i was delighted and honored to be in the position of representing them. but of course writing a book from that perspective is not an easy thing to do. there are all kinds of pit falls that somebody like me could fall into somebody from the west reporting on this could fall into, and i worked very hard to make the book not only respectful of their lives and experiences, but also not to see myself as the sovereign subject and themselves as the others on which i was commenting or reporting. so i had to create a stance for myself a humble stance, where i was just as willing to learn from them and their culture and their perspective as they might be to learn from me, although i don't know what they learned

from me. i guess that's a question shy ask them. but i learned an enormous amount from them. i learned a enormous moment about my country's history. i have a chapter about the historical background of afghan women's rights, or lack thereof of persistent political pattern that seemed to happen over and over again in which i think the united states was re-engaged. after the invasion. and i wanted to be somebody who was not a subject to the imperialist perspective as one might expect a person in my position to be, and that has been a huge part of my learning about this. and most important live i didn't want the book to join the panoply of recent texts of stories from beneath the burqa. it wasn't my idea to probe their

personal feelings about the veil. i wasn't about to ask them, wouldn't you rather be like me? i mean, all of that stuff had to go and that was my goal and any of you who read the book, you can let me know if i've achieved that. the book is organized into three sections and an afterward. the first section goes from 2002 to 2005 and it's entitled "hope" because there was a lot of hope and optimism when we first met and the other women at the conference told us about what they had been doing. the second section is called "reality" about from 2005 to 2010. and the third section is called "uncertainty" because after 2010 that the word that dominated and still does. the book really follows them from their early lives through

2014. there's an afterward that brings it up to dade. it's close to the time of publication as i could get. today i think we'll hear more about their current perspectives perspectives and i am sure you'll enjoy hearing about that. so the book itself, my role -- i began also evolved my role began as a witness just learning something new and i became a narrator, and an interpreter of their experience, and then i became a sort of participant in their lives in very small ways, but we have an alliance among us that at least from my perspective i hope will go on as long as possible. so the book interweaves these women's stories and some historical background and contemporary geopolitical analysis. there are some suggestions which i'll talk about later about

policy implications and also some words to feminists who would like to stay involved without falling into the traps that so often happen. with that, let's turn it over to jamil. >> thank you very much, dr. kitch. start us off. >> uh-huh. well great pleasure and honor to be among you all seeing lots of good friends from afghanistan and also here. meeting marcia after long time. based on the recommendation that i should talk about my personal life and the challenges and achievements and still the challenges we are facing, so i will try to be limited. as an afghan woman i started my

work for social justice and for well-being of my people when i was -- during my month of classes. by establishment of a network a group of sisters around me that we could provide help and support for those women living in the camps with hardship. we started to work with professional's basic needs and later on we found that it's better to teach them the way of life a proper way to continue with the life instead of the bigger giving them something or as a bigger we are asking people to help us. so that's why we put the name of educational center. it means light elm wanted to educate our people, to give our

people enlight. ment through the light of education. we started our work from three camps in 2002. >> car sigh was not able to -- karzai was not able to establish but we are ready to start or work and we start our work from third district of kabul the most civil war looted area. we started our program with education at the entry point and later on with literacy, and by passage of time they are in need of some psychosocial issue and

conflict management and some other items. today i'm very excited -- we provided literacy program for 50,000 women. and we have trained 6,000 imam in 22 provinces of afghanistan about women's right and human right, and this group and network of imam is not outcome of one or two days of workshop and seminar but it is a product of continuous work and different ways with imam, and we are also working on the issue of sexual harassment and educational environment, and also workplace and also working on the issue of child marriage, and we are also working on elimination of women

against women and we are also working for protection of the law which receives a little bit setback from the parliament in the end saying that it is against islam. for me, as a human being, as a woman, as a mother, sometime when i see that there are base need in my society, and of course we are facing many, many challenges, and i cannot reach to all of them, then i say you are not god to help everyone and to change everything. but as a human being if i can help one women out of one child or one youth that is because of my life, and with this commitment, with this patient we are working facing lots of security challenges, but still

we are working and we are hopeful that with these work, we are lighting small candles and these small candles will be able to light many candles around and it finally we will have a better society, a better country for next generation, for my children for my children of my country. the challenges we are facing, of course it's insecurity, the cause of women right with all of our struggle with all of international supporters, like us step forward and two step backward and i'm sure you're also aware about the women's right situation in afghanistan through media which presents almost half of the story. not whole of the story. and the other challenges we are

facing that corruption, corruption and different level different appearance, which occupies over government, even in social light and other activities. the other big challenge that we are worried about that is the peace negotiations, which is going on, and we cannot see voices of women in that peace negotiation process. like in early days when -- the law was appointed and they start flying pigeons from the sky and announce we are starting peace negotiation, and we could see that only he was there and a few colleagues were around him and we are asking, my brothers, women i with whom you are going to communicate who besides you

who is next party on your table... >> and hopefully taliban to listen to us and they should be aware of our concerns. the other challenge that we had

with donors of international community, it was from the beginning like they had very shortened projects for women. and always they saw and they could feel that women do not have the capacity to do great jobs. so that's why they were giving very few opportunity more women or even sometime the female project was given to male organization to deal with women activating which was not that much fruitful and positive. and also donors are having their own agenda always. they do not listen to women. what is our need, what is our wishes and how we are thinking about solution of the problems because we are front line soldiers. we are working on that part of

afghanistan that our government cannot reach international community cannot reach but we are present there. so they are not listening to us. and they do not hold our voices for better policy development and better strategies to work out the issues which is existing in afghanistan. and my achievements like i have very small achievements that i'm always happy seeing that i can help someone with small things that makes me happy. i'm very happy that today i'm here with you all. one of my dream which was that i should try to write a book on my life about the difficult life

that i had. [laughter] sally kitch helped me develop the book, and she has highlighted mine, my life in this book, so this is one of my dream which has come true. i'm very happy. and the other dream that i really want to do my ph.d.. [laughter] i'm starting that for many years and hopefully i will be able to do ph.d. for myself. >> we're working on it. >> thank you. [applause] >> well, thank you very much. well, that was one inspiring impressive story, and we're going to hear another from our other speaker from afghanistan. so please, we look forward to hearing from you. >> good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. i am very honored to be in this

round table discussion. i'm very, very happy seeing dr. kitch after a long time, 40 years that i am here in canada. thank you so much for allowing me to be a part of this conference. it's really a great pleasure to be a part of the book that d. -- dr. kitch wrote. i remember we rode bicycle and came to ohio state university where we live with many -- met many students with a lot of ideas and who were listening to us. finally the book after a long time come out. it's a great achievement not only for us, but also a great achievement, let me congratulate

dr. kitch for the work that she did, is such a -- [inaudible] and i encourage everyone to buy it, have a look at it and see as dr. kitch told the story from ourselves, not the story from others. as afghan women, we grew up in that country and we expressed ourself, and now the book is on the table. i encourage all of you to have a look and read it. this might not be -- [inaudible] it might not have all the afghan woman -- [inaudible] but to our ability we did as much as we knew about afghan woman situation. we put it on the table, and dr. kitch kindly from 2005-2015 a lot of the work was done -- [inaudible] but to me, i grow up in a middle class family educated family.

and i have experience -- [inaudible] i never left afghanistan. i went to a school in afghanistan, and i got my judicial requirement in 1995. but i practiced sharply, and then the taliban came in power. one of the brightest periods of my life was, which is still i smile while i remember, working during the taliban separately with international organization and having my own business school for the boys and girls. you can't believe some of my students want -- [inaudible] and they're looking for national organization. and even abroad, a tear comes to my eyes.

on that time there are very few opportunities for other women to work but also to get education but i was able. that is one of the great achievements that i have during the taliban. while we were -- having no opportunity to work outside home i experienced how turbulent life was because to have a union, to have a wife, to be together, resolve problems and be connected to international organization. especially during the taliban. but after 2001 i'm lucky enough after the international support to afghanistan for the first time i came to the united states through the state department,

2002 where i met a lot of u.s. high-level including president bush. i got -- [inaudible] they are very united, and they're struggling for their rights. when i came back to afghanistan i decided to establish the first afghan woman judges' association, another work that i'm proud of. through the afghan woman judges' association, i helped a lot of afghan woman judges to get training, refresh their education, and also i provided a lot of opportunities for lawyers to be part of that developmental -- [inaudible] and besides that being at the united nations i was working also with the united nations and unicef. i tried to work hard for the development of afghanistan through the current institutions.

i -- [inaudible] we worked very hard to bring change toss the constitution of -- changes to the constitution of afghanistan. in 2004 in afghanistan, it is one of the brightest part of woman's rights in afghanistan because of there are women including me -- [inaudible] but, you know, after 2009 the situation in afghanistan got changed, and fortunately there were some not good visions for the future of afghanistan. after that the first thing that afghan government banned afghan woman judges' association because they were trying to help afghan women for their education and sending them abroad for education. i did this job at first i began

to establish another organization -- [inaudible] the teachers at the law school and also with the afghan woman judges lawyers and advocates as well as to the expand of woman's right and constitutional rights in afghanistan. and also training for the police and other important elements of the government of afghanistan. but unfortunately, because of the situation that i have, the security situation, i left afghanistan, and now i am shut out. it's one of my biggest dreams that i should go back one day again to afghanistan help my

country people, country women -- [inaudible] lack of their powers and lack of their right. it is one of my dreams, and it is why i studied -- i continued getting some education in canada, and i hope that i could achieve more. but besides that, i am close, very close to the afghan community here. i am supporting and helping a lot of women who are here and helping them with their education and also some other community -- [inaudible] i think i'm still in the dream that i should see the achievement of afghan people once, and i hope that --

[inaudible] within these last years shouldn't be dashed with challenges. one of the very important challenges that i should talk about is the security situation. as you know, the last few months ago if you remember -- [inaudible] you can see how fragile woman's rights can be. no protection of any crime or any charge, how it could be for a woman that no one is telling them on the street, and there is no protection for them. but also other challenges. as jamila mentioned and also -- [inaudible] the recent talks with the taliban -- for the afghan

people, especially for the afghan woman. if any negotiation goes with the taliban, and women will not be a part of that. then any decision that could be taken for afghanistan will destroy all the process and all the benefits that women of afghanistan have within ten years. afghan woman should be a part of the discussion. taliban should watch president obama -- [inaudible] the taliban should respect the human rights, the constitution of afghanistan and the woman's right. any negotiation with them by -- [inaudible] couldn't be accepted for the afghan woman. i'm very happy that today i'm talking as an afghan woman. i see that many afghan woman are now united.

still very strong, i believe that now it is not ten years or fifteen years ago while the taliban were in afghanistan. i see this as a great progress, as well i see a lot of education for the afghan girls. now we see a lot of women are even in the private sector or public sector, they are great education, and some level -- [inaudible] we don't have any woman at the high council but in this cabinet we have four woman that are working. but all these are good signs but it's still i think the lack of rule of law and our fragile judiciary and fragile security in afghanistan are the main challenges. and i hope the international community, the donors who are supporting afghanistan do not

let afghanistan to be again the situation we were in in 1992 and 1995. because if the situation continues like that i'm sure that the security not in the region back in afghanistan, the security it will be bad all over the world. the expansion of the taliban day by day in afghanistan and other places in association with that, and also according to the the expansion of activity by isi is not good for afghan woman. i hope that woman's rights couldn't be victimized during any negotiation on peace process -- [inaudible] thank you very much. [applause] >> well, thank you very much judge basel and thank you to both of you for those really interesting and inspiring,

sobering presentations. well given that we are in washington, most of us would be interested in hearing what this means for policy. so dr. kitch will say a few words about impliations and recommendations -- implications and recommendations for the united states in its policy in afghanistan. >> thank you. i would like to to back up just a little bit before i start doing that to say that these women's achievements are greater than they have said, and their modesty is very becoming but in order to understand what they've actually achieved, i hope you'll look into the book where i detail it and don't rely on them to have to detail it for themself. [laughter] and i'm shamelessly promoting the book because all the royalties from the book will go to them and their causes. so i've never done this for a

book that i've written before but this time i'm really hoping that it will be successful so that afghan women can succeed as a result. so they both talked a little bit about policy implications already. but there's one -- there are a couple of things that i think i would like to give as background. one of them is that neither of these women would say that afghan women's biggest problem is islam. and, in fact, i had a question about that in an interview i did yesterday. the interviewer said i notice you didn't mention religion as one of their challenges. and one of the things that's striking about their attitudes in the book is how they embrace islam in ways that i don't think translate into many americans'

perspectives about the religion. they think that people have misinterpreted islam and done bad things in its name, but when they talk about what the religion means to them, it's a very different, very different picture. and one of the things that jamila, i think did not mention is her important work with imams in afghanistan. and this has grown -- >> [inaudible] >> did you say, 6,000? did you say? okay. i just wanted to be sure that was on everybody's mind, because this work for which she's won an international peacekeepers award, i think is quite significant and i wanted to point it out. so i just want to read one section of the book. i'm not going to read much, but i think this gives a background to some of the mistakes that the

women believe that internationals have made. marcy and jamila's withering account of international efforts on behalf of afghan women pointed to two perspectives that toe nors tended to have. one was a pitiful lack of knowledge about the history of women's rights in afghanistan or islam. that ignorance and its accompanying short-term focus led both governmental and nongovernmental organizations to work for change only in immediate, concrete and material conditions. such as school buildings and health clinics without tackling subtler cultural challenges. the second destructive perspective followed from the first. that is, many international change agents and donors believe that cultural challenges are necessarily a matter of religion and, therefore, off limits the outsiders. but donors' ignorance of the relationship between islam and locus toms empowered local leaders to the detriment of

women. marzia and jamila decried both perspectives. they had a healthy skepticism of allegedly sacrosanct, traditional practices and a clear understanding of the distinction between such practices and islamic precepts. is those, to me were some very important points to internalize and understand that a lot of the discussion in u.s. politics about afghanistan sort of overlooked this. and i think there's still a thought that most people in afghanistan don't support women's rights and therefore the u.s. government shouldn't put itself in opposition to the majority of the population. so i think there's a lot of evidence that that's a false assumption. i think both marzia and jamila's work is a testament to that, to

the fact that there is support, but it has to be aroused in particular ways. and perhaps in the questions and answers, we can talk about that further. so that's part of what internationals have done wrong. but here are some suggestions that i make in the book and that i think jamil a&m arzie would still support. their advice was to forget high profile, short-term projects and instead think about long-term society-wide solutions. that's the kind of thinking that seems to have been absent in international relationships. they also wonder why afghans are not able to run the institutions that are actually put into place. and that, building that capacity is an important part of what the international community should strive to do.

another is to actually tie donor money or any kind of intervention to women's rights. so in other words, if you're going to if you're giving money, then where's where's some of it going, a good portion of it going? to support women's rights. and that is something we haven't done the u.s. hasn't done. they've both said this, but i think it's important to reenforce. negotiations with the taliban can't include conceding women's rights. and that is a great principle but it's also an enormous insult to the work of -- to the life-threatening work of these two women and others like them. over the last decade and more. and to say that that could be on

the table is just not acceptable. i remember that when we talked in 2010, they foretold what's happening now or at least what i read in the media which is they said the first thing that will be negotiated is the constitution. the part of constitution that guarantees equality. they have an equal rights amendment. it's not an amendment it's part of their constitution. of course, u.s. doesn't. and i read when these negotiations were starting that the constitution was something the taliban wanted to talk about changing. so i think we should be alert to that. from marzia i have learned about the importance of insisting on rule of civil law. she doesn't reject sharia law at all, but she feels strongly that civil law needs to be supported and needs to be better understood in the country.

also as a i was just saying, understand that women's ab next is not a requirement of their religion or their culture. and it doesn't mean that outsiders cannot address these issues. principles, says marzia, not custom should prevail. jamila says this repeatedly that international action speaks louder than the words. so there's been a lot of talk about women's rights and not much action to show for it. and finally, they called back in 2010 for a strategic -- national strategic plan for women. and they felt that that would be a contribution that the international community could at least help facilitate and that showing the strength of the commitment of the international

community to women's rights was extremely important because the weakening of that commitment among internationals would be reflected in a weakening of commitment among afghan politicians. so those are some of the suggestions that we make in the book. maybe they would like to add a few others. >> okay. well, thank you very much. that was, that was really interesting, very useful as well. and i should add i don't know if this was said earlier that much of the work and the activities that both judge basel and ms. afghani have done did not receive any international donor support. these are truly local grassroots projects, so to speak, so i think that's important to point out. this has been a really interesting introduction to what i assume will be a very engaging and rigorous discussion. but before we, before we start

with the formal questions and answers, i just wanted to pose two broad questions to the panel. the first one to you, dr. kitch, and it's about title of your book, the first part of the title, "contested terrain." my sense, as i recall from the book, is that when you're talking about contested terrain you're talking about contesting terrain inside afghanistan in terms of contestationing for land among -- contestation for land among internal factions, but at the same time you're also talking about contested terrain in the context of external powers or external forces. so if you could talk a bit about what you mean by the title and particularly how it relate toss this issue, to these themes of women and women leaders. and a question for judge basel and ms. afghani is to talk about your views of the new or the relatively new government in afghanistan. this is, of course a very fragile, new unity government that despite its name is very

fracture ared it seems to be very dysfunctional in the sense that it sometimes seems that the president and the ceo do not necessarily talk that much, don't even know what's going on between each other in terms of policy. what do you think of this government and particularly how large -- how high of a priority do you think it has or will accord to women's issues? so maybe start with you dr. kitch? >> okay. well, i think their question is really interesting, so i'm going the make mine brief. i think that there are several levels of contested terrain. afghanistan is historically contested terrain. so one of the illusions in the title is -- allusions in the title is to the history that i talk about of international sensing on the territory of afghanistan to create the country in the first place and to -- because of its strategic

position particularly proximity to the sow yet union -- soviet union, that a lot of political games have been played over afghanistan over the centuries. the cold war was particularly problematic as far as afghan women's rights were concerned because the u.s. really knowingly supported some rather regressive factions in terms of women's rights in order to oppose the soviets who -- although they may have certainly been worthy of opposition supported women's rights. and in so doing, made women's rights associated with communism which has a problem that still exists for women activists today. so that's part of it history of afghanistan. and the current geopolitical situation in afghanistan is

still sort of a political football. but the other -- and, of course women have been struggling, and their blood has been shed just for their survival, let alone their rights. so in that sense there is contested terrain. but also it refers to what i alluded to at the beginning of my talk which is for someone like me to try to saying? about afghanistan -- to say something about afghanistan is full of pitfalls or potential pitfalls. and i was very aware of needing to be careful and very self-aware as i proceeded so that i did not play that imperialist role that i talked about. so those are some of the things that i had in my mind, but i think when you read the book, you can see others that also come to the fore. >> okay.

your views on the few government in afghanistan. you could go ahead ms. afghani. go ahead. >> new government. [laughter] the national unity government. and you used the word fragile, yeah, it is very fragile government. and i cannot see it as a two-headed government, but i see it with many-headed government. every party has smaller groups around them, they want their own interests, their own agendas. and we all are witnessing that for the past six months they are struggling to announce their cabinets. and for each ministry, for each position they have their own

bargainings. so whatever comes on the issue of women like it makes us more worried. when a government is not strong enough inside how they will be able, how they will be in position to provide service for rest of citizens. and that's why insecurity has got very worse than before. whatever you hear from the security situation in media, i assure you it is not more than 10% of the reality on the ground. we have very severe condition inside afghanistan. and with all these, we are struggling, and it is almost around five months that we are struggling to meet mr. alt san

janney to share our voices, our concern and mr. abdullah. unfortunately, with many requests and letters and like pushing with different people we are not still able to meet them. but we are hearing with a specific group of women they are meeting at least on weekly basis. so this is also concern, that if the government, unity government why not it is for everyone, for every community? and on the peace negotiation, i mentioned earlier that they are not that much strong and committed to women cause and we

can see very openly that they are trying to push women at the corner to not be active during the peace talks. so these are our concerns, and i hope international pressure will be increased on them to be more united and hopefully they also as the leader of a nation who are facing lots of -- [inaudible] should take their responsibility. and we are fed up, we are fed up with wars, with terror, with all the suffering we are facing every day. and hopefully they will consult us on this issue. and with such a complication

that they are dealing with, activity on daily routine issues i can see that it will be very difficult in future. >> not a particularly optimistic assessment. judge basel did you want to add anything to this issue of the new government in afghanistan? >> well yes, sure. thank you for your question. actually we got to 2014 election the foundation of this election was based on corruption. and then you can see a lot of challenges during the election and after the government came until power for months and months there was no executive -- [inaudible] in afghanistan. while they choose the ministers, they were not even based on the -- [inaudible] or dividing the power between their own. some positions for

dr. abdullah -- [inaudible] but unfortunately, the hope that we had as a very well educated and very well known within international affairs and international negotiation issues while he was campaigning during the election. unfortunately, you know, the time he has been in afghanistan there are a lot of challenges, especially the security challenges. beginning of 2015 we are witness of more than hundred suicide attacks in different parts of afghanistan. besides killing day by day -- [inaudible] is facing very bad situation and they are -- [inaudible] extension of taliban is another issue because every day we hear

that one part of the country is under the rule of the taliban which is a very big concern. what i hear from the people, actually, every day every morning i am scanning the afghan news because my family is back there. the other there was -- [inaudible] quite -- [inaudible] people don't know how to deal with the situation. i heard that if you see -- [inaudible] again, the brain drain and a lot of educated people will flee afghanistan. the situation is not a good situation for the afghan people.

i think the international community can play a very important role in this tragic situation for afghanistan. first, they should -- [inaudible] to really be a united government motto work for each themselves individually. and second, because the international negotiation is going to bring peace in afghanistan to the taliban then they can also -- but there shouldn't be any changes to the constitution of afghanistan. i am really worried about the future of afghan people, especially for the woman's rights. i think that the benefits that we have and the outcome that we have in this in these last years, the situation change comes to worse it will be the first -- the first victim will be the afghan woman and chirp. and so i am not optimistic about

the future of afghanistan. >> huh. unfortunately on that, or should i say on that unfortunately negative or should i say pessimistic note, we're going to open things up to the audience. and i'd ask that you wait until you're called on, until you have a microphone in front of you to pose your question just to insure that our c-span viewers and judge basel can hear what your questions are. if you could give your name and your affiliation when you're called on. so we'll start on this side with the woman right there. yeah. >> thank you so much. [speaking in native tongue] very pleasant to see you here. my name is arianna i'm a fellow at the atlantic council. i've had the honor of speaking to jamila for hours listening to her story that i did and i was wondering if you could talk a little bit about potential for connecting the women's rights movement in afghanistan to rural

areas. we all know that women's movement in afghanistan has been more urban. it was international community supported, and your work flows against that tide. it integrates the work of women's rights groups to rural areas with imams. so i was wondering if you could speak a little bit more about your work on that front. and in terms of how how the women's movement can connect better to the teenage girls in different provinces including kabul. during my research i found an unfortunate gap between the women organizations and the students and universities of afghanistan. and so i would love to hear your thoughts on that. thank you. >> you taking questions together? >> let's start with one at a time. we can always group them together later so go ahead. >> yeah. thanks a lot, arianna. unfortunately, my eyesight has become weak.

i was guessing it might be -- [inaudible] great to meet you. unfortunately, so far the investment of international community and lots of current organizations working as a civil society organization, they are focused on major cities, especially in kabul and some other safe provinces. to reach out women groups and

that is our community peace group that we have established this community peace groups not only in kabul but also in a very dangerous

provinces such as kunar helmand, kandahar, wardak, logar. and in these community working groups, we have tried to bring women, men imams policymakers on the provincial level youths together to form a peace group in their community. and one of the conference that we were supposed to invite women from the provinces to attend a conference in kabul, so we had a little bit budget for five women and five -- [inaudible] to accompany them coming to kabul to attend conference. and i received a call from a sister from kunar province, she was saying why are you using this much money for five --

[speaking in native tongue] i said then how you will come? because i know their structure and their sensitivity. she said we need one. just please allow other women to come to this conference to kabul to be benefited. and it was really, really moving and really it was like until now i get very emotional to share that a community like a village level on very far-sited provinces, there is bigger need and there is bigger demand. unfortunately, the methods that we cannot reach them properly because of our shortcomings, our government shortcomings our international community shortcomings. so it was very wonderful that we had one -- [inaudible] with a van full of women coming to kabul from kunar front of,

and they attend -- province, and they attend the conference for the full week. it was really wonderful. and unfortunately, you know that in afghanistan due to -- [inaudible] of donor and project, some of the ngos which are hated by parliamentarians and by government minister, previous and current, they are receiving mostly big sum of the projects' funding. because due to the security and many other corruption issues like donors are giving the projects to those world famous organization that in reality they are not reaching to people, but they are receiving money in return of bargaining. so yeah -- [inaudible] in afghanistan but the issue of

peace negotiation and then new government has a little bit -- [inaudible] and now women activists, they have realed that in whichever position or in which area they are working, there is need of unity. we have to come together. and from the other side, the new generation coming up, they have better access to education. like there is a big -- [inaudible] between them. although i tried a lot to be connected with them personally, although i know some other networks and organization, they are doing also. but they -- we don't have that trust. young women, they are thinking that they are bigger, they have better experience, they may occupy us. or maybe, in other words that they are lacking the same, they

are lacking some experiences. although usually i'm telling them that you should learn from us, the mistakes which we have committed, you should not repeat because afghan women don't have much time. and we have already lost a big sum. we need to, like, go very straightforwardly. and we are struggling and hopefully that we have established network of advocacy and human rights and through this government we are working with youths. hopefully, we slowly and gradually change the situation. thank you. >> next question is going to be here in the front woman in the white shirt. >> thank you very much. my name is charlie ponticelli, i

headed up the international women's office at the state department from 2002-2006, and i remain active in afghanistan as a member of the u.s.-afghan women's council. and i would like to -- and it's great to see my wonderful marzia again, because i think the last time we saw each other, you were studying your course at george washington university near d.c. can. michael, i wanted to make reference to, i think a very important comment you made at the outset that there are stories that tend to get drowned out. and so i really congratulate dr. kitch for bringing these wonderful stories out. because as you all know, we're at a time of great donor fatigue and afghan fatigue here in the united states. and it's important even in the midst of the uncertainty and the pessimism to get the good stories out. so i want to express kind of, i

guess, a word of regret that one good story that apparently didn't make your book was the work of the u.s.-afghan women's council. which was established by president bush and president karzai back in january of 2002. so long before your ohio conference, this was a partnership initiative u.s. and afghan public/private, that was anything but colonial or imperialistic, but rather responded to the priorities and needs that were brought to us by the afghan women themselves in the areas of political empowerment, economic opportunities, health and education. and that's one reason i'm here today, because the partnership that we had with women like marzia and jamila the work that you've done that's been very much a part of our network i think at this time of

uncertainty and where do we go from here, it's these good models that we need to promote and support and not forget the impact that they made. so thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> i'm going to go right to the front row here. >> thank you very much for -- [inaudible] welcome both of you. [speaking in native tongue] i really proud of the afghan journalists, for afghan woman. it's really hard and difficult to work in this tough time. your statement was wonderful. my specific question for marzia as a judge, what do you think about recently -- [inaudible] in afghanistan -- has been killed in very bad way. as a judge, what do you think? everything was successful? [speaking in native tongue]

>> thank you. i'm really glad -- [inaudible] we met in 2002 for the first time while i was in washington and then many other times. about the brutal killing of -- [inaudible] and the judgment and the sentences that the criminals got, i'm very disappointed because according to what i followed in the trials going on, the main people who were really to be condemned and punished, they are run out and they're not -- [inaudible] the agenda of the court. after such a big issue, the judge -- [inaudible] they punished those people with -- [inaudible] and about eight other people

with a exterior punishment. and what has changed is the court decided for 11 officers police officers or maybe those who were guards, they just issued one year of punishment which is really -- [inaudible] that doesn't give any justice. i'm sure the appeal does the family and also the council -- [inaudible] will reach to the high level of afghanistan, and criminals will get punishment in a proper way. there are many -- [inaudible] agenda for the court. i'm sure that -- and the committee that was established they will --

[inaudible] to really give good justice. >> did you want to add anything? >> no. >> let's go to this side to have the room the woman in the front here. >> hi, thank you for coming. this is amazing. my name's whitney pop i'm a recent graduate from also another ohio university bowling state university from the master's program of cross-cultural and international education. and i was curious, and i apologize, i know you guys have been talking about moving forward, i'm hoping you wouldn't mic taking a quick step back about provincial reconstruction teams and if they hurt, if they helped or if they did absolutely nothing regarding women's rights. and then specifically within provincial reconstruction teams which were the united states and other governments' forms of kind of hearts and minds missions in afghanistan as well as iraq. but if you wouldn't mind talking

about did they even have a role within women's rights? because they, one of the things was they were going supposedly to rural areas. so i'm just curious if they made it and if so, did they have any impact? >> do you mean international community? >> yeah. specifically the united states military. so usaid was slightly involved in some of the provincial reconstruction teams but mainly the military coming in. they did things from governance strengthening to building schools and others. >> actually, in reality we cannot ignore the achievements that we have by support of international community in afghanistan, like we got our constitution through hair support, and we got -- through their support, and we got 25% of women in the parliament. last time we had a few women as a minister and this time we have four women as a ministers.

and we are working for lobbying to have women as a -- [inaudible] opening the doors of schools for women, for girls and most of the -- [inaudible] it is also a good achievement. the health sector, especially the mother mortality rate, has reduced due to support of international community. and there are many others who got -- [inaudible] like we have national action plan and we have one national -- [inaudible] for women. so these are the biggest achievement that we have. but, you know, afghanistan with all complication which we have it's long journey ahead. like usually when we are

complaining, it doesn't mean that we ignore that there has not happened anything. but we are trying to protect the gains we have, the foundation cans already have laid down -- foundations already have laid down. we want to build upon the foundation, and we don't want to lose the achievement that we have so far. and when we are talking about peace negotiation and other matters, that is our tension and worry, that we should not lose the ground because of insecurity, because of corruption and because of -- [inaudible] and let me thank people of united states of america. due to their support that we have major achievements and improvement in the life of afghan women.

and if the international community support was not here, i think we would also not be able to be here. like it was my international sister my american sister, dr. kitch, who could help this. and it was something like behind our resources and behind our ability. so these are the things that we cannot ignore and we will not ignore and we appreciate and we thank for that. >> i add somethingsome -- can i add something? >> yes, please. >> actually, the prt, yeah, they did a lot in afghanistan. this team were helping -- [inaudible] i have been witness in afghanistan the -- [inaudible] were helping to contract the schools, providing protection

for the girls. because when i was working for german government assistance project, they were helping a lot. and i know other prt like in kandahar and helmand and other provinces of afghanistan, we used military presence was helping at the grassroots for the microfinance, for the woman's education, for mother mortality, for the health issues. i have been witness. they have a lot of achievement because government information was strong the area that they would be at from the villagers, and they built up the capacity of the villagers especially the provincial councils. in election, they pay for the election, many other things yeah. i have been witness of that

achievement and assistance of prt team in afghanistan. >> oh, go ahead. >> i would just -- because you're recently a student and that i write a little bit about them in the book. and the criticism was the problem about ambiguity about their responsibilities resources and relationships and the absence of meaningful coordination among them or with kabul. so that was one of the critiques that was offered about whether they were really helping women's rights. but at the same time they did make, you know, certain contributions that were very important. >> a question second row from the back. yes. >> thank you. i'm dr. gina egan, and i'm a board member of the united nations association of greater

kansas city, and specifically a women of the -- a member of the women's committee there where our mission is to educate locally in kansas city about women's issues locally as well as globally, and i'm excited -- well not excited but i'm glad i can bring back this afghanistan to kansas city and recommend the book as well. i have two quick questions. one is in the peace negotiations, is the pressure to not include women solely coming from the taliban side or is that also coming from the current government, and how can they justify that? and then also dr. kitch spoke about the support in afghanistan more women's rights, and i was wondering what is, is the support extensive among common men and women both in afghanistan, or what is the feeling there for that? thank you. >> why don't you start. >> why don't you go ahead. >> okay. [laughter] well currently we are hearing

from different sources that taliban has not shown any rejection to not have women on the table of negotiation. but this recommendation has come from high peace could council and also from our government. because they, they gave the argument that maybe taliban show some irritation if women are on the table. they may show some irritation, and they may start going back, and they may not negotiate. ..

the reality. might be media telling something that this is the reality that i know. >> okay. go ahead. >> well, i said something about there being support for women's rights and i mentioned that the work of these two women and others really demonstrates that. but i think what is important to recognize -- they're some polling data actually that supports it. however, i think what the brilliance of the programs that

these two women and others like them have implemented is that there is a sensitivity to what they call the afghan way. and that there's a difference between the imposition of certain rights by fiat on the population and working with the logics of the population to understand the benefits to all of women's greater access to civil society and of their greater economic opportunity and their greater educational opportunity, and as i lisped to these two -- listened to these two women talk about how their programs became successful it was clear that their experience tells us we don't just deliver the messages from on high, but that we elicit them from the population to its own benefit.

and i think is in that sense that i would say that what i've learned is that there's more support than i think sometimes our policymakers assume. and that they may or may not know as much about the local situation as they think they do. so it's in that sense that i think you find support but that doesn't mean that if the united states announced tomorrow that we're pulling out unless there's a woman president the next day or something like that, there wouldn't be a lot of resistance to that. and their reasons -- also various reasons for opposition to women's rights. some is starkly patriarchal and misogynist. some has to do with fear about safety with a sort of confused

idea about what protection is. i sometimes think that the two words, protection and security, get people into more trouble than almost any other that we -- that behavior can go badly awry when those are paramount approaches and i think we can see that in places like afghanistan but we can seal it in our own society as well. so it's in that sense that i would say that there is support or otherwise jamil's work would not have expanded into now 22 provinces of afghanistan. and the way that she does it, she makes sure that people understand the benefits, not just for the woman as an individual apart from her community but as a member of her community as a member of her family, and the way i've understood their work that's been an important aspect of it.

>> your good question about peace talks. i just caution that we not put too much into what is going on. these are talks about talks. this is note first time the taliban have indicated some possible interest in talks. it's happened number of times and nothing has really come of it. i think the government in afghanistan may be more interested in talking than the taliban is. i'll leave it at that. but it's a fair point we should be discussing the issue of potential talks. let's come back to the front of the room. >> my name is mars marizia and i have one comment and one question mitchell comment is that we should be optimistic about future of afghanistan for many many reasons. i grew up in afghanistan and i

call taliban years the darkest years of my life and when i compare to now there have been so many changes. imagine on 500 girls in school. now the more female even, and i see women activists on the facebook doing amazing things, like our civil society and what happened to fahunda is heartbreaking but what the women did is history. how they carried the coffin and all those. so there are many reasons to be -- as jamil said, it takes time. nothing happens overnight. and i do think it's the way back for us. we will keep moving and we should be optimistic. and my question is, at the beginning of this month there was a two-day informal negotiation and three women were there and one of them was, i

believe, shinori. malala and there was an article that 'taliban not against women in politics, and then they formally -- for me it's very difficult to track the taliban. i would like to hear your opinion. the taliban who do not believe in women's rights and women's abilities, is it -- should we really track them, like when they say we want women and then we -- and writing back, what if they don't do what they promise? i would like to hearot what you feel about it. thank you. >> well, ya, we have very rough and tough experience during taliban regime, and one of the

reason that international community came to afghanistan they said we are protecting women and giving womens there a right and their freedom. at the same time when you see even the international community start bombing and even we were shout fork god's sake, don't. don't push them this harshly. they will come back with more strength. but nobody listened to us, and it happened. and no international communities pushing the taliban should come book and that is why my question that why you bomb them that today you are saying that they should come back on the fast ball of negotiation. so -- on the table of negotiation. so unfortunately the situation of afghanistan is not more handto hand of afghanistan. many are playing the game around

us. the show of trust to be honest, the same question was asked from my son was asking me, that, mother tell me the truth on whom we are going to trust? and i said, on none of them. and this is my answer for you. that i do not trust no one of them not our government, no to taliban. but as you said, hope and i trust on the strength of women. me marizia and many more of us, we have not reached the disposition with peace of mind with a peaceful environment. we have struggled. we have sacrificed. even we have sacrificed our happiness, our well-being, to do

something for women and hopefully this motion will going on and we will be in position to make them to listen to us. >> did you want to add anything to that? >> no thank you. i just would like to congratulate -- you are the wife of afghan woman. you are very strong. go on and be like that. you will be a good leader in the future. >> okay. a few more questions. woman here in the front. >> i am from iran. i am from tribal area. and i have been involved on a personal level for many years with the education of girls and

i feel our biggest challenge is ignorance and poverty. and how did you face it? what did you do? because once you get to have dialogue in the village then you see that people walk with you in one of the villages they even donated a big piece of land. i just told them we need the school. i said, all right happen muter do you want and i have no idea how many meter do we want. i got back to them the next day. where did you start? okay. >> that is my question. >> a. we start with small means and greatness of the purpose. we started from zero and even we started from below zero level.

i was saying one of my achievement as literacy, provision of literacy for 50,000 women, and this is not the small number. and if you go back to our organization you can see there was a little bit of investment. by relief international and some also program they have but we design the program the way that the program is going on until now from 2002 until now. with a little bit change. like we are going on surveying a village or maybe one or two streets to find out how many ode indicated women there are living

and how much illiterate women or living. when we figure out four or five women or two women literate, so we hold a training program for them for a month and after -- with small incentive on that date. after that, we sign an agreement, a memorandum of understanding with the teacher and we request her and during the training we gave that awareness that you have to help your sisters for education. so she is providing a room in our own house for a group of 25 women. to come to her to get literacy program. and every woman has to pay 200 afghani at the end of the month. so almost equal to the salary of

a teacher that the government is paying. and 200 for each woman is not very huge amount. and this woman, which is attracted by community living in the neighborhood, and very easily access to rest of women to come to her home for one and half hour on daily basis and get literacy program. so this is the way that we are working and this program is now shifted to different provinces from almost all corners of afghanistan. [inaudible] >> the teachers. the teacher will get. >> if she has 20 students, she would get 20 times 200 afghan y. >> yes. >> have you verified she has done a good job or not a good job? >> of course, yes of course, we

have money mechanism in our system that is most important part of the project cycle and that gives us feedback, and based on the recommendation of the money, now we are moving to different provinces and we are extending our program. based on the report from northern provinces we found that the program is not working good there. when we went there yet and we did a little bit more intensive need assessment and study, we found the issue of child marriage because of the -- the biggest challenge and ignorance and economic issues, so multifamilies are getting their daughters to be married at age of eight and even seven years

old. and in return they are getting some money by that money they're purchasing a car so they are running to the roadway and gaping some money. and i have such women that she might be hardly 12 years old but the wrinkle on her face and on her body shows that she is almost 60 years old. and under the dilemma we found that these young women young brides on the day of marriage, they are getting on opium. because they're very young they're not able to afford a man of 50-year-old sexual relation so on the day of marriage they're given opium and snu sexual relation and they are becoming

drug addicted. and so this was under the finding based on the work we were doing for literacy, and since 2008, we are working on the issue of child marriage, and even in northern province, convincing imams on the issue of child marriage became a difficult task for us. imams were not coming to the agreement that this is sin this is not right and this is unislamic. and we did lots of this to convince them, and the reason when we studied why the imams are talking such a hard position on that, we found that the first follower of the act because already a child bride is in their house the second issue was their relationship with the tribal leaders because they are the follower of such activity

and the imams cannot oppose them. so as a leader, as a manager in my organization, i considered monitoring very, very strong element of the project cycle and that's why we are working many area that organization started for educational activity, now we are doing a focus on elimination of individualment from sexual harassment and child marriage. >> i'd like to group together the few remaining questions to wrap up. there are anymore questions? okay. looks like there's one more so we'll end with the woman in the back. >> hi. i teach at a community college and this is all our students going to a leadership conference at university of maryland so

we're happy to be here. i i teach a women and gender studies class and how i got in teaching the course was to infuse islam sunny curriculum and i had to put a role in women's course together to be able to do so and this has been probably one of the most interesting conversations. i want to thank you because it is about cultural changes. cultural shifts, and i think maybe -- and i'm not an expert on policy or aid but seems when we look at aid people have the perspective of the other and one thing that is not just the men and a patriarchal society by whether women buy into it. so when you put religion into the mix the fear is that it's always a pushback. you can always push away women their place is secondary.

and so i guess in part it's not a question but it's -- as a sentiment do you think maybe there is a cultural shift that women will not put up with? they won't buy into a patriarchic point of view about women's places are private, ill literacy is fine because that not their role in culture. do you think that not going to be allowed by women from now on in a country like afghanistan? i mean issue think that's what keeps us coming back, when policymakers look at things. >> maries ya, do you want to answer that? >> thank you for the question. actually to change culture you cannot do that in one day or one year. it's a work of the case. culture issue a woman's issue it needs education.

the real islamic and sharia right are for the woman to be educated. this is very important issue and i think it will take time, and i'm not sure -- afghan people -- more than 25% could achieve something with such a huge challenge. >> both you and jamil said you think that afghan women are not in the position that they were in the 1990s when the taliban first swept through afghanistan that there has been some shift but would you say that it couldn't happen again that they couldn't be taken back to the same kind of prohibitions? do you think they would speak out?

has there been enough change? >> well, i think the international community especially rule of u.s.a. and afghanistan and great -- the way we are facing peace negotiation process, we can see that there will be change in the attitude of taliban and the attitude of government because of international communities pressure. up to some extent. but we are not sure about which extent. because of gaping -- gaining power there may bes' compromise on both sides. because this is the game of power. and this is the game of

politics and in afghanistan and our history women used as a political tool, always. that why like we are not sure that how much they will keep their promise like, president karzai sign the convention of freedom. but when the statement came from sharia like had no objection. always you can see the dual policy is going on towards women issue. when the parliamentairan, they call themselves representative of people. when the law come in it was shut down within few minutes. they said it's unislamic because it was