extremist groups recruit people. he discusses his book "undercover jihadi" and takes national viewer phone calls on c-span's morning program "washington journal." >> host: joining us from toronto,l" canada is mubin shaikh the co-author of the book "undercover jihadi." good morning. tell us about your book, why did you write it?te >> guest: hello. i really wanted to put the message out for really other young muslims to be able to pick the book up and kind of maybe see reflections of themselves in it. >> for academics to be able to make sense of this topic of radicalization, what happens to people, you know, how the group dynamics play a role in all of that, so there were multiple reasons for doing it, and it came out at a good time. you talk about your own adoption of radical ideas.

tells about your story. how did you get to that point? guest: i went to public school during the daytime. it was a very mixed environment. very caring, nurturing environment. as opposed to in the evening, i would go to koran school. it was like the indian or pakistani system where boys and girls were separated. you sit in front of wooden benches, not understanding of word of what you are reading. if you made a mistake, you were slapped. this severe contrast, i believe late of foundation for an identity crisis that would manifest later on in life. when i got to high school, i wasn't picked on or bullied. i was one of the cool kids. we were part of the in crowd, so to speak.

i had a house party, and my house party -- and my father was out of the country. he told his brother, my uncle to check on the house while he was gone. of course, in the middle of the house party, my uncle walked in. i was 17 years old. a teenager, it was the end of the world for me. i was shamed into feeling so bad about what i had done, i convinced myself that the only way i could make amends with my family was to quote unquote get religious. to do that, i went to india and pakistan on a four-month religious trip. while i was in pakistan, i had a chance encounter with the taliban. that is where i was the by the jihadi bug, as i call it, and became a supporter of both the taliban and al qaeda after that. host: if you want to talk to the guest about his experience and

thoughts arise as asian, (202) 748-8001 for republicans. (202) 748-8000 for democrats. independents, (202) 745-8002. for muslim americans who want to ask our guest questions, (202) 748-8003. take us back to pakistan, the expense with the taliban. what happened and what influence do so much? guest: this was summer 1995. i had gone to a place called -- at that time, it was a stronghold of the taliban. later on, it became the nerve center for the taliban and the ruling council. when i showed up, i had no understanding of politics of the region. i did not know who the taliban were. i was not really paying attention to a lot of what was going on. i had heard stories of the

region. there was a war from 1995. i was walking about the area and the group that i had gone with was an apolitical religious group. they encouraged other muslims to be more religious. the idea was that the more you fast, the more you pray, god will bring about change in the world. so, walking around the area, i could see bearded men with turbans, ropes, and i grew nearer to them, thinking they were religious people. and i realize, they were armed. they had a lot of weaponry on them. a guy like me at that moment, coming from the background that i came from, seeking validation in the islamic context, seeking some sort of

islamic persona that would resonate with me, i was young and infringers, and saw these guys, and that was it. for a lot of people even up to today, look upon these groups as heroes from the days of old. you read about the stories -- and now, here i am. i became completely enamored by them. they presented to me a category of hero that i could buy into, so to speak. host: you talked about this and wrote about in your book, that military sense was only taught as a necessary evil of life unlike how terrorist groups like isis now teach. tell us about what you learned about the topic of jihad, and how you think it is practiced today. guest: the little meeting

means struggle. when it is applied in the context of combat, when you struggle in combat, or struggles regarding your family, you personally, that is what jihad means. when you are struggling in war or in a combat situation, this is the secondary meaning of jihad. for all intensive purposes, when you here jihad, it is referring to the combat form. in arabic, in the koran, another word means fighting. jihad doesn't mean fighting, a main struggle, but is used in the context of fighting. this is what i learned. the taliban told me, in 19 a five, when you want to bring about change you have to use

this. he held up his ak-47. as far as they were concerned, jihad -- whether you frame out of the doctors self-defense or offense of warfare, this is really the understanding of jihad. i just want to finish out the point by saying that jihad is a war tradition. it is a legitimate war tradition with rules of ethics and rules of engagement. what people do today in the name of jihad is not jihad, it is terrorism. host: mubin shaikh, he is the author of "undercover jihadi." our first call for you is john. john is in massachusetts on the democrats line. go ahead. caller: hi. yes. i don't know if you know this or not. i'm not that religious, but you

might be. there was an article, and actually a court case, about one of your people. a woman who worked for abercrombie & fitch. she sue them because of her religion. she was there for five years and they told her when things were unfair -- i noticed that you have a crucifix on your person. the next time you come back to work, i want you to hide your crucifix. and she said i cannot do that. to make a long story short, she sue the company -- sued the company, it went to the supreme court, and she won. the only negative vote was clarence thomas. i don't know what your background is in religion, but if you worked for abercrombie &

fitch, would you have sued the company? guest: if we are going to live in a society that extols the virtues of religious freedom and that religious freedom is taken away, and you are at a workplace, and lose your job because they are forcing you to choose between your faith and your job they are going to be responsible for that. i would certainly take the opportunity to teach them a lesson. host: let's try an apple maryland. independent line. nick, you're next. caller: good morning. i had a specific question about the tenets of islam and the muslim religion that led you first to justifying the jihadist theory, and what tenants of the religion led you to refute. where did the shift in perspective comment. guest: i would give even algae

that religion is like a hammer. you can either build a home with it or destroy a home with it. it really does come down to the perspective you have. the worldview that you hold. in the beginning when i was young, angry, looking for an identity, some of venture, for me, it was the idea of being cool. i fell into it because i haven't really had any religious training, but yet, i came to believe what the taliban told me because they looked cool. they were obviously religious people. they had beers and turbans, so i thought, they are religious people, which is not the case but that is how i thought. when i went to syria in 2002 after the 9/11 attacks, and study the religion properly, you learn the rules of interpretation. you did not just pick up the book and start reading. i studied how to interpret the book.

the historical context. the literal meaning of words. that contextual understanding of the religion is what got me out of it. i would say a more superficial emotional aspect is what got me into it. and i would say that is what gets a lot of people into it today. the more intellectual approach got me out of it. host: you were led in a moderate in helping you understand what the koran said. guest: yes. my oldest son, his name is majority -- he was born in 1999. in the arab world, they call you abu, which is father, so father of your child's name. when i answered that i was father of my son, they asked

are you a jihadi? and i said, yes i was. and this person started challenging me on my knowledge of the word. he said, let's follow up on this after the class. he study, we will study the verses of jihad. he knew i was from canada and i would go back to canada, so he wanted to educate me. i spent almost two years with this in mind -- iman. we studied every verse in the koran the hat of this verse of fighting and construction eyes it -- and contextualize it. host: hussein from jamaica, new york. thank you for calling. caller: good morning, sir. brother, i have one question.

about 1000 years ago someone asked a question. he said, god has chosen you. [indiscernible] what options do the palestinians have?

what is the difference between systems? jefferson said, give me liberty or give me death. help me. our grandchildren, our grandchildren. do they have any option left? i am the last person -- i was eight years old and i saw hindi and muslim women brutalized in pakistan and india. help me. what options do muslims have? what happened in the central african countries. what options do muslims have? host: all right. we want to let our guest respond.

you are giving him a lot of questions. we will let him respond. guest: thank you. the point was about the crusades . when you have these grievances what do you do about it? the rule of law is very important for us to frame our responses within. even in the time of the crusades, when some of the abuses were taken place, solid and -- he did not return that kind of violence. for example, one of the things where the christian crusaders withrow dead, rotting corpses over the walls, in hopes of infecting people, biological warfare. muslims were always told that they did not respond with the same violence. this is based on a saying that

says, do not allow your dislike for a nation to allow you to be just us -- to be unjust. this is also based on a profit that says, there is no harming or reciprocating of harm. our responses must be framed under the rule of law. on the other hand, even in the international system of the rule of law, there is the rule of self-defense. if you're being a victim from your home, persecuted because you believe in one god, then you can fight. this is something that is in the koran. permission is given to you to fight. those who evicted from your home and persecute you because you say god is one. in the worldly context, it is called the law of self-defense. if whoever's coming and killing you, you are allowed to fight.

host: paul on our line for muslim americans. the morning. -- good morning. caller: i'm going to tell you something. i have read the koran 10,000 if not 20,000 times. i'm going to tell you this now. mohammed was a terrorist. he wanted to be a terrorist. read the koran. he said he is going to do whatever he has to do. you either become a muslim, or you die. guest: i read the koran in arabic and the prophet mohammed is not quoted in it even one time. meaning, he does not say "i" anything. host: from john in illinois for our guest. john, thank you for holding on. go ahead. caller: hello. guest: hi, john. caller: hello. yes.

my comment is that humility and purity and chastity is love for god. the federalist papers mention article number eight 11, and number 64, which pertains to america. i believe that this is completely contradictory to reality. if you read the federalist papers, the american revolution was based on letters eight 11,

and 64. they say that the unity in america is a mentality, and the revolution was based on this mentality. we lost this mentality, and we have to rollback to the mentality of the 1787 constitution. host: all right, thanks. off of twitter, interviewer asked, what is militant islam's beef with america specifically? or, what is their problem with america specifically? guest: right.

you have to frame it in a historical context. i certainly don't put the blame on the u.s. alone. the sunni-shiite divide has been there for years. you can't really blame them for that. really, if you look in the recent history, you can go back -- let's say we go back to 195 15. tasubsequently, in one decade, if you look at the decades after that, -- i understand, the u.s. approach. it is not really any different from the muslim approach. this is of a the muslims to pay attention to. we were also colonialist and imperialist. it is funny for me to see muslims criticizing what the u.s. does. there is criticism for both of

us. coups in iran, setting a proxy groups -- in afghanistan, it was the british russian, soviets. the problem is that they see with the u.s. is doing, propping up dictators, dictators have been suppressed, dumb the societies down, and then we point at the societies and say they are not able to do anything, it must be because of their religion. that is a false conclusion. saddam hussein came to power by a coup. gaddafi came to power because of a coup. the u.s. is politicking, it is

doing geopolitics the others have not done. that is what takes them off. host: hattiesburg, mississippi. curtis, you are next. caller: i want to ask a question. someone got on and try to explain the dues and the don'ts of the religion. i think it is a misconception that everyone is wrong about these people. host: ok. guest: if i understood the point correctly -- look, we cannot make generalizations about any group. i used to do this. i used to do this to christians, to jews, to hindus, buddhists you name it. i had a generalization. then, i met them and talk to them. i may not necessarily agree with

all points of doctrine but if i'm dealing with the person who has a good attitude and character, i don't care what you believe. i will judge you based on your character. host: you were recruited in one way. what do you say in the modern-day about recruitment? specifically, using social media to recruit followers. guest: i'm just about to be 40. i'm that old that i can say i was around in the early 90's when it was still yahoo! chat aol chat, and that was the first exposure to social networking that i had. it is vastly different than then. what you are seeing is the idea that you don't even have to get out of your home to develop a social network. develop an intimate relationship with people who can influence

you in ways that really people only realize can do that. that is the main difference that i see from back then to today. the rate at which people can interact with the other -- with one another i mean, you can talk to people from all corners of the globe. i really think that social media plays a very large role in not only creating new dynamics related to recruitment radicalization, but a completely new experience of human interaction. host: robber from chicago illinois. you are on with our guest. caller: i just have a, in regards to a lot of the problems are hostilities that americans have towards muslims. we see christians getting beheaded.

soldiers getting dragged through the streets of the belt use. people formm an opinion based on what they see going on in the middle east. we go over and try to help these people, and still, these people want to kill one another, and have been for thousands of years. we get fed up with that whole deal. the muslims will cry racism being told ever coming fits the have to wear certain close, even though they sell closethes to young kids. we hear race baiting under obama and his whole geopolitics that you mentioned is totally correct. we over -- we are over there because of oil and contracts. that is my main comment. that is the problem that people

have with muslims, in regards to them killing one another and killing christians in the middle east. we are try to help these people unite and go back to democracy. we are sitting back here in the united states -- as a veteran i'm seeing this, and get frustrated. we are forced to adopt their religion and their way of life when they should be assimilating to our way of life. it is ridiculous. this is the united states, not the middle east. if we went there trying to push religion, we would get killed. people have gotten killed. guest: that is a good comment. i really don't blame a lot of americans, given what they see being done in the name of islam. if i had not grown up in the islamic faith, or been exposed to what i was exposed to, i

would think that islam is a barbaric religion. i would be very hard pressed to figure out how these people are worshiping god. i knowledge that. this is largely because of what people do in the name of islam. that is number one. the perception that people have is based on extremism, a violent manifestation of the religion. we don't -- for example, lucy is walking down the street, and she slipped on a banana paeal, and we blame lucy, but is because of the banana. this goes back to the argument that if you're going to empower dictators, don't blame the religion. it is the dictators that are dumbing the people down.

if you look at islam in various times in history, the theologicians where the scientists. it is false to say that the muslim world cannot do it, it is because of the religion. it has a situational attribution to it. the last point, you're right. if u.s. is going to go there to force religion, that is the same thing with democracy. you cannot force a society to come to a system of governance that does not resonate with them. that is the problem. we need to develop mechanisms that resonate with their sacred values. host: to still reach out to those with a radical mindset, so to speak? what is the reaction you get? guest: i do it all the time.

the reaction is within a spectrum. the reaction is that you are not a real muslim, you are a sellout. others say, i don't trust you, but you make sense. the other category is those who end up listening. i have been dealing with a lot of people who have been of the mindset that i have helped to bring away from that mindset. i've brutally honest sometimes. i think people like that. especially young people. they feel alienated. they are marginalized. they see all around them that everybody hates islam. when you see people making cartoons and mopping -- mocking

our profits, and you flip the script and say does racism. you can't say there is freedom of siege and insult people's most sacred views, and then when it insult something of yours you say, it is not free speech in this case. these are things that young people are saying and try to make sense of. they are not able to make sense of it or they struggle. host: when you mentioned cartoons of mohammed. when you see violence that stems out from that, what initially goes through your mind? would you call it justified? guest: it is never justified. what goes through my mind is how does this help our cause? the paris attacks. what happened with that -- it was a struggling publication, they were making fun of everyone, and then these guys shot them out, and their subscriptions went up 500%. i take the utilitarian approach.

i detach the images. it breaks my heart to see that. i don't insult people's fa iths. the koran says, do not insult their gods unless they insult to god out of ignorance. the approach they take with violence is counterproductive. host: "undercover jihadi" is the book by mubin shaikh. we would hear from betty. caller: good morning. i have a quick question about a passage in the koran. i'm paraphrasing. it is where you pretend to befriend your enemies so you can get in there and, i guess, do them harm or take advantage. would you please tell me how that is not relevant? sometimes i think, are these

people really your friends? or, are they going by the section of the koran? guest: thank you betty. i like to hear your north carolina drawl. the concept that that he is referring to is -- which is courtesy of some of the muslim haters out there who want to dictate the muslims as always lying. and, if they are shaking your hand with one hand, they have a dagger in the other hand waiting to get you. there is no passage actually teaches this. this comes from the statements of the profitet, and refers to the

classical oxidation that if you fear bodily harm or death because you believe in god then you are allowed to deny that you believe in god. this is what christians do, jews did, and muslims did when people were persecuting each other. when the romans were persecuting the christians they denied their faith. or, in the new testament, where peter denies knowing jesus christ. that is the traditional classical understanding of this. in the operational context, it is what in the west we called denial and deception. a spy does not tell people who he is. there are varying levels of it. the idea that operationally people up to no good are going

to operationalize that concept and say here, i'm not allowed to deny my faith ignoring that my life is not in danger. there is no license to go round lying to people. people abuse that in this context. i would say, just a close that point, what was i doing when i was telling guys that i was one of them, but i wasn't? that is a level of denial and deception that i think would be acceptable. there is a whole spectrum. host: because you brought up the topic of spying, a little bit about your book. after your mindset change, you went to canada, and ended up working for the canadian government looking out for those who might be radicals. can you give us a short history? guest: after went to the tell bad -- taliban in 19i-5, i kept

that up until the 9/11 attacks. i will be honest. i initially celebrated the 9/11 attacks. as the events went on, i thought to myself, something is not right about this. i get attacking combatants, but flying a plane into the building, innocent people, how do you claim that? i went to syria and study for two years, got out of my mindset, realize how bad it was over there, and came back to canada. you remember the koran school that referred to earlier. a guy had been arrested in 2004. he was the kid who sat next to me in the school. i approach the security intelligence services to give a character reference. by then, it was too late. the intelligence service was a interested in speaking to me. we chatted for about 1.5 hours

or two hours, and they put to me the prospect of working for them to be undercover operative and tell them who i thought would be a threat. i accepted and i did that for 1.5 years. i conducted several infiltration operations. i did some things online. later on in 2005, 1 of those cases became a public prosecution. i was given the option, either you walk away from it, or you follow through, and you will be in court giving testament, your cover will be blown. i thought to myself, this is doing the right thing, let me follow through with that. my identity was exposed. i gave testimony in five legal hearings.

i faced a lot of backlash, i was ostracized. this is a problem you deal with in the u.s.. there is a lot of mistrust. you can see from the boston case that just happened a couple of days ago, there is no trust. there is a severe lack of trust. i had to navigate through the states. in that time, i did a masters degree in the leasing -- policing. i went from the spectrum of been there, done that, to now, i still consult with government but i take a pro-islamic approach and a anti-terrorism approach. caller: good morning. a few points. never one, god bless the american constitution. i have been to turkey, lebanon

egypt. there is no country like the united states. i am to the right of libertarian. next to my friend, i was born and raised syrian. he should do fine jihad. jihad is struggling to put bread on the table. number two. please give me time. the late bob novak and pat cannon -- that buchanan they said, now that the soviet union is gone, they look for a new enemy. they set up the muslim war. number three. i came from turkey to egypt. egypt is dirty, poor, and corrupt. you give egypt $100 billion and is gone in a second. number four.

turkey is rising like germany. the west, especially france, they do not want democracy in the middle east. they are hypocrites. you know what, i was born muslim. i am agnostic. i love the jews. i could raise a nazi flag, but that is bad and folder. i am protected by freedom of expression. the united states is the best country in the world because of george washington. my profit george washington gives me rights. i'm neither anglo-saxon nor christian. host: we have to let your guests -- the guest respond.

guest: it is a good sentiment that he expressed. the u.s. constitution is a great document. i would say that you are in competition with the canadian one. we will tolerate you for now. host: from virginia don. good morning. caller: good morning. i would like to get the understanding that the koran says that the muslims should not fight against those who do not fight against you. you should not harm the elderly plants, or animals. i do not understand the justification that anyone can say they are a muslim or study the koran for a hot minute, and then, particularly in this country, -- those who follow

mohammed, he did not do those things. i don't understand. killing another muslim, you go straight to hell. to me, the man is crazy. to celebrate 9/11 -- at one time i follow the religion. there are so many things that turned me off. 9/11 was one of the main ones. there are other things in the religion that i had a problem with. i respect islam, but there are a lot of ignorancts. we don't have a camel. we have cars. i wanted to know, what is your response to the ignorant followers of these radicals?

guest: that is a good question. really, if it was based off the example of muslims, i wouldn't be a muslim myself. i am a muslim only because of the religion itself, and what i understand from the religion. it pains me to see what muslims do in the name of religion. complete ignorance. breaking the rules. we have to look at things in the context. 1400 years ago, the koran was speaking in its context. it would make no sense for god to mention internet 1400 years ago. they talked about slaves camels. that is the kind of life that they live. the mistakes that i think muslims make is thinking that we need to replicate society from the 700 and doesn't -- in desert arabia.

i totally agree with you. i understand why people think the way they think. all i can say is it is important for them to understand real islam. host: the book says that you are married, you have children. how do you talk to them about your experiences and current issues and considering moderate muslims? guest: i'm very open with my children. i have had this conversation with them. my oldest is 15. my youngest will be seven. i have five children. i'm putting them through a form of social engineering. two of them are in the army cadets. i think you call them army explorers. i raising them with the values of duty. i give that a holistic understanding of religion. i told them that used to be a government agent. my job was to stop bad muscles

from doing that things. the prophet said, support your brother when he is the oppressor and when he is the oppressed. the companion replied, we understand to support him when he is oppressed, but what you mean support him when he is the oppressor? it means, stop him when he here presents. i don't make any excuses. i don't apologize for what i did. extremism is against the religion, and is ruining the name of islam. i will not apologize fro for stopping people. host: from pennsylvania, ernst. good morning. caller: i am sitting here, i look at c-span all the time.

thank you, pedro, for being a host. i really enjoyed your comets is morning regarding islam. i'm 60 years old. i became a muslim when i was 40. the thing to everything you have said today has done the muslims in this country a great service. may allah guide you. thank you so much. guest: thank you very much. host: from new york, here is anthony. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for c-span. i'm really enjoying your guest this morning. my question to you is how do your parents feel about your endeavors today? and the opposite -- authorship of your book? thank you. guest: amassed -- ai laugh

because my 10 euros he says to me -- 10-year-old, he said to me, you lost your virginity in the army cadets. it was the most awkward moment for me. he read the book, and even my parents read the book. that was the point. i wanted to lay everything out there. once upon a time, my parents wanted me to her then i got to religious, and they did not like that. now, they are extremely happy and very proud of me that i have come full circle, or even doubt as i say. i'm happy about that. honor thy mother and a father. it is good. host: because of the mines that you hold and the past expenses with the government, has your life been threatened? do you feel that you or your family are stucco guest: -- you

or your family are? guest: i get threats from time to time. i don't completely dismiss and deny it. i know people are watching me and seeing what i'm up to, online anyway. it is possible that some of could make a move at some point. i think i that nothing is happened so far. i hope it will continue that way. i think about it. i understand that this is a risky area that i'm involved in. i have faith in god. i take precautions as much as possible, as much as lawful in canada. host: dallas, texas. bob. good morning. caller: good morning. i have a question on mohammed, when he was standing in the desert.

and the spirit, more or less comes to him. he says his people were starving , and he said, pick up the sword. he attacked the jews at the time for food. what is the difference between him and someone going down the street and saying, i want that tv, so i will just take it. in other words, a thug. guest: i don't recognize that account. i don't know where that came from. the islamic story is that the prophet was meditating in a cave. the angel gabriel came to him and said, read. he said, i can't read. there was no instruction to pick up a sword. host: athens, ohio. you are on with our guest. caller: i would like to give a

comment. i'm 86 years old, world war ii window. -- widow. we have religions, lots of them here in the united states. we have methodist, at the scope alien -- episcopali. an another thing, we are living in a communist state right now. we have a republican party who wants to rule the united states and eventually ruled the world. they are on the russian side. the koch brothers give money to buy a president. we were half an inch from having a dictator, george w. bush. we realized that everything was going wrong way.

now, they have suppressed are voting. the democrats are on the low side. it is all about money and oil. there is a fight going on here right now in our country. host: this is earl from maryland. go ahead. caller: good morning. i preface this by saying -- i have not read your book, but how do you deal with the hypocrisy about the right to freedom of speech to draw cartoons of the prophet mohammed, but if you as a community do cartoons about jews killing jesus -- you know which was a historical fact, would that be considered free speech or would it be considered anti-semitic? guest: this is the thing, you have to identify as hypocritical.

you can't encourage people to internalize these values of freedom of speech, and then not apply them equally across the board. the problem is that people will see through that right away. your question was how do i deal with that. i recognize that humans -- we are humans. we will make mistakes. we always try to realize the ideals, but often we fall short. i recognize the human connection -- human condition. where i can speak out about it i do that. host: here is the last call. jonah from -- joanna from maryland. caller: after 9/11 -- i'm a loser and -- lutheran. after 9/11, i realized i knew nothing about islam.

about four years ago, there was a big billboard outside the mosque that said islam 101. a couple of us from our church to the class. i learned so much. it is spelled a lot of myths -- dispelled a lot of myths. i made a lot of friends.

>> guest: the prophet referred to them in the most disparaging manner. he doesn't -- there is no other group of people that were

disparaged by the prophet than they. they were rebels who would declare other muslims as non-muslim. thereby justifying violence upon them killing them, robbing them raping them. this is what isis does now. using verses that were revealed regarding non-muslims upon the muslims, so declaring them as you know, infidels, apostates. this kind of approach, making war on anyone for any reason for small reasons. so this is what you see isis doing. the prophet referred to them as the dogs of hell, they are the worst creatures under the heavensm and earth. wherever you find them, kille them. so these kind of groups the portfolio fete has castigated them -- prophet that has castigated them in the worst manner possible, and this is very important for people to look into because when people say

oh isis quoting the quran are isis t guys they pray, they fast well, yes. the prophet said these peoplepr will come in the garb, and they will fast and they will pray, but they will falsify the meanings of the quran and deceiveiv the people. >> host: "undercover jihadi," there is the book cover. thanks for your time today. >> guest: thank you very much. god bless. >> you're watching booktv on c-span2 with top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. booktv, television for serious readers. >> the american justice system is not designed to get at the truth, and that's, you know, it's not it's not a bad thing, it's just the adversarial process isn't designed to conduct an investigation. like france has an inquisitor system where the judge can actually order witnesses in and

propose questions to try to figure out what happened. the american process is designed to hear two different narratives and and to see who makes the most convincing case. and the point of it is to apportion guilt and assign punishment. the point of it is not to get a comprehensive picture of that happened. that's the fbi's job. and the fbi hasn't done its job. but at the same time i mean, if you look at what the defense did, we got a fairly simple narrative from them which is he did it. and their focus has been on not disputing his guilt, but on preventing him from being sentenced to death. >> which is exactly their job. and i think they've done it spectacularly. i mean it's been, it's been amazing to watch. it's also been amazing to watch the prosecution which was even more of a surprise for me, or actually that was a surprise. just the way that they selected witnesses, the way they staged

the case, the way they always timed it to go from sort of mundane in the morning and incredibly emotional in the late afternoon to let, to have the jury go home at the end of the week pondering the absolute worst of what happened at the marathon. and it was just, it was like watching an incredible theater production. and it was devastating. i think it was devastating for not just for the people in the courtroom, but for the entire city of boston which is why you've heard victims coming out against the death penalty and just asking to have this thing over with, because it is so emotionally powerful. >> right. >> but, you know, why do i find it unsatisfying? because there are questions that haven't been answered and that can't be answered in court. one question is where were the bombs made? the fbi testified in court that they don't know where the bombs were made. they know they weren't made in tamerlan's apartment or dzhokhar's dorm room. if they were made somewhere

else, then who else was involved? was this person unwittingly involved whoever owns or, you know rents the space where they built the bombs or was this a full accomplice? and we don't know unless the fbi tells us. and the biggest question was what was the relationship between the fbi and tamerlan tsarnaev someone they interviewed at least three times in 2011 as a terrorism risk? how come he was then table to build a bomb -- able to build a bomb and set it off? >> well, i mean janet napolitano, who reviewed your book in "the new york times," said you were a conspiracy theorist for raising questions about the role of the fbi because from her point of view the fbi does thousands of assessments of people every year, and the fact that they didn't immediately recognize him is indicative from her point of view of nothing. >> well, i mean janet napolitano seems a little conspiracy-minded about conspiracy theories because all i did was raise the question.

[laughter] but here's what happened. the bombs went off on monday afternoon. on tuesday morning fbi technical specialists had isolated the likenesses of the brothers from surveillance tapes. and for three days basically until after tamerlan tsarnaev was killed, they couldn't identify the brothers. i'm assuming that even though -- i mean, i know that the joint terrorism task force in boston isn't that large. the number of people who go out to interview real, live terrorism suspects is finite. three days is definitely enough time to show each one of those people the pictures that they had isolated from the videotapes. is it conceivable they didn't show them the pictures? absolutely, but it's a sign of incompetence and incompetence may well be the biggest missing link that the fbi is not disclosing. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org.

>> and now joining us on booktv to preview her upcoming book is "the three-year swim club." julie, what is the three-year swim club? >> guest: oh the three-year swim club was a legend in its time. in the late 1930s and 1940s, early 1940s the three-year swim club was -- the members of the club had gone from obscurity in a very small town in maui, a plantation, sugar plantation town to being the greatest star swimming stars in america and in the world. ..