tioning railway station. as most of most of you know, we have drones, unmanned aerial vehicles. they notice a large concentration of military hardware and around the areas. you know, we're talking about things like main battle tanks and sophisticated weaponry such as surface-to-air missiles. also they're are many challenges cooperating in such a conflict zone. over. over the past few weeks have been subject to systematic jamming of our video and gps and we are talking about sophisticated military grade jamming. also in terms of people on the ground we will we have been observing is the so-calledthat the so-called bpr and lpr have seemed not really able to provide basic human and societal needs.

for example, the judicial system seems dysfunctional people wandered attention have to wait to be seen. now, our colleagues in the un have been doing a fabulous job in terms of trying as best they can to document the toll on the civilians. the numbers are stark and horrifying. the latest numbers indicate, 7,000 have been killed since the conflict began. and that number does include the victims. in terms of the number of people injured almost 17,000. hard to believe some 2.3 million people have been uprooted since the conflict began in april 2014 this is an important number because he year ago ukraine had virtually no displaced people. now ukraine is in the top

ten countries in the world with the largest number of displaced people. amid all of this people's livelihoods have been affected has industry and commerce is choked and access to supply and markets are being cut off. we are reporting finding ourselves in the situation at checkpoints frontline. people are forced to wait hours and sometimes days at checkpoints that are subject to frequent showing and close to areas are mine. another huge enormous problem is the lack of water, constant shelling in many towns along the front line is when the water pipes we have been active recently in an area north of dpr control where we have been

able to arrange for daylight cease-fires which in turn has allowed access for repair workers and others to get the water flowing again which is potentially benefited two and a half million people. now, i mentioned a bit earlier the that earlier the challenges to the mission command we continue to face unacceptable restrictions on the freedom of movement on both sides. yet the specialyet the special monitoring mission to ukraine remains the main international astronomical around and we we will continue to conduct our impartial monitoring. we have been extended to march of next year. we have been present without interruption on both sides since inception and we will continue to do so. wewe have around 500 monitors from over 40 different participating states. now, just shifted quickly

one of the latest developments, in indevelopments, in late june the mission was informed the investigation team had to discontinue its mission temporarily due to lack of access in the areas controlled by the lpr. up until then the special monitoring mission and the facilitating access for investigators. we facilitated access for as the photos indicate repatriation of human remains for personal belongings and her comfortably. it was on november 14 where recovery work began. they are back in the netherlands and being reconstructed. going back togoing back to exactly one year ago today mission was undressing 24 hours after the pointer. it came down.

it was a horrific scene or parts of the aircraft were still smoldering, bodies laid out in the field and there was no perimeter security. the 1st is regrettably difficult. we 1st arrived we were greeted by a small group of rebels who really seem trying to intimidate us and restrict access. fortunately in the days after the access to improve and we were able to facilitate access to experts from ukraine malaysia, ukraine, and the netherlands it was during his 1st few weeks we reported to the 57 participating states andand by extension the world. in reports the spot reports and countless media interviews. we held media scrolls of press conferences out of the side of the crash.

and because the ukrainian media and principal could not access areas of rebels controlled we held many remote briefings give. by the way the lack of access for ukrainian journalists journalists is very much a plate of the state and rebel controlled areas. i want to note that where the plane came down and whether railway station was, up until then it was a no go zone. the reason is it is exactly the same area where our colleagues were kidnapped. they were held for a month and fortunately were released unharmed and unconditionally just a few weeks before may 17 came down. the other.i wanted to many

of you have heard of the trilateral contact group group that includes senior representatives from ukraine , the russian federation and the umc and this group regularly by video link communicates with the rebel groups.groups. and on the evening after may 17 the trilateral contact group actually did meet and was able to speak by video link. and whatand what was agreed upon at that time, quite important equipment to secure the site of the crash, to provide safe access for rescue teams for national and international investigators have a special monitoring missions and to cooperate with competent ukrainian authorities, practical questions in the course of the rescue operation. again,operation. again, we felt very privileged to have been they're at the right time

and to do the work that we did. i just wanted to read a quote from the dutch foreign minister december 20142014 said that without the efforts of the umc the netherlands would never have been able to make so much progress in the patriot human remains, personal belongings and records from the flight. now, i also want to say that -- i will end with this if i can our personal note.note. this crash this disaster, as any disaster touches us in different ways. the crash site working there for weeks was very heart wrenching the things we saw in january i have the privilege of meeting one of the relatives for the 1st time. a very young talented, impressive young man called jordan whether.

his uncles on the flight. when thomas was a spokesperson for the world health organization. like myself,. like myself, a former journalist and around my age. he was about to turn 50. fun-loving, love to travel. and his nephew, jordan, appeared in a bbc documentary and spoke very highly of his uncle who by the way was on his way to that aids conference in melbourne. i just wanted as a tribute to glenn and also to the other relatives on the plane just read a couplea couple of lines of what his twin sister tracy had to say to him. glenn, they're was no uncle brother like in the world. it was the most generous kind person, always thought of others 1st.

he loved life and was doing what he does best, traveling. there is not a bad word to say. thank you very much. [applause] >> thank you so much. thank you for joining us today. i no it was not easy to beat in his 1st few days and hours on the ground in eastern ukraine. and people like michael and other investigative journalists risk their lives to be in his own report what is happening on the ground and set the narrative and changed the narrative, the conflict in ukraine in the narrative that the media has been trying to put forth ever sense. i would like to.out that these investigative groups investigative journalists have been tracking the

forgeries, photoshop images and revealing the truth behind this terrible tragedy. i would like to ask them to come back up to set the stage and for last two speakers. >> so, as was mentioned the investigations that have been done have been unprecedented in the sense that usually these kinds of jobs are tracking satellite imagery tracking troop movements on the movements of military material happened behind closed doors and we get the report at the end. this is an experiment being replicated in front of our eyes. you are seeing this investigation unfolded real-time very transparently the thing is that you look

at the information space ever since the 1st day people knew exactly what happened and then quickly the political narrative or the need for political narrative and both sides tended to again what they thought happen all wanted to think. in that sense the work of the people have been extremely important and not just constantly bringing the narrative back not to whether or not satellite imagery was doctored or not but bodies in the field following a peoples roofs to guidebooks children's books, luggage, just constantly just constantly bringing us back to the very real human cost. s he said one of his reports that this tragedy brought the conflict that everyone was trying to sweep to the side of there consciousness to the doorstep of the international community to

realize they had to do something about it and pay attention because it did in a strange and bizarre way a year ago affect them as well. i'm going to introduce the award-winning documentary journalist who spent the last year, more than a year doing frontline reporting for vice out of give doing absolutely incredible work, indispensable work. >> thank you. i just wanted to tip my hat to all the people who did a lot of the investigations that made it possible for us to understand what is happened. initially we came out they're and were just reporting what we were seeing on the ground. it was terrific, but it took all of those investigations going to the corrective and

journalists from the guardian and the telegraph all of the other newspapers out they're really put in a lot of work in the piecing it together for us to have an understanding and now we do have an understanding. and i want to say that i have not done any kind of investigation on a little myself, but what we did do -- and i remember the moment it became clear that a plane had come down in eastern ukraine. i was on the train from kiev it was one of those young guys. a very modern train. you don't feel like your in any part of the world. sitting there with internet reading your twitter feed. there is something that came down about a plane crashing and someone said it was a malaysian flight. one of those september 11

comments because at 1st it just seems so outrageously ridiculous that i thought somebody was making a joke about the previous malaysian airline of the disappeared. earlier that morning rebels announced that they found ukrainian transport plane. i felt someone was making a sick joke. but quickly we realized quickly realized that this was a real incident and channel all of our resources to get down as quick as possible and spend the next few days there. but again this was just on the ground reporting commander told us what was happening, but it did not tell us the whole back story. it never done an investigation like that. the only sort only sort of little piece that we have been able to add to the general understanding of the whole story, we have been able to confirm one of the spu recordings that the

ukrainian security services made of one of the rebel leaders. those dark peoples republic flag i called kaysix and. a leader reported by the security services, and it is hard to no what you can trust the stuff being put out they're on youtube of security services or anyone else. it was an accomplishment to get in front of this guy and have him admit that he was the person who made that phone call. i think we can play it now. for one of the reports we did. [speaking in native tongue] [speaking in native tongue] [speaking in native tongue]

[speaking in native tongue] [speaking in native tongue]

>> i was struck. i don't see the video. well, yeah. yeah. when i arrived i was especially struck by the stories of the ukrainian villagers and often somebody's falling on the roofs. [speaking in native tongue] >> i recently visited the lady, her name is marina.

after the downing she was so traumatized sure to take tranquilizers to be able to sleep. about 20 orphans20 orphans witnessed bodies falling on the playfield. they went to the crash area. by then the smell of them is lying in the field and temperatures over 90 degrees was getting unbearable. ofof spoken the boys is your is 16 years old. [speaking in native tongue]

>> emotions will reporting never came so close to me is this time. almost 200 dutch died. many of them come from the top of the tv networks are based. it seems like everyone knew someone on the flight. one of my quinces, at the quinces, at the time he was texting me to get first-hand updates of the situation. my cameraman these are the pictures. this is 31.

they would not be able to visit the crash area.area. we took some flowers from the field back to the netherlands. the dutch floral artist may not work: sunflower okay. donated to almost 250 other bereaved across the world. an exhibition on this process started yesterday in a museum near amsterdam. they walk through. we tried to bring the sunflower fields of east ukraine to the netherlands.

the parts of the current form back to the netherlands on one of ten impressive repatriation flights. the relatives of this boy had nothing. he and his mother made this picture of themselves. petra was found. his father and stepmother waited for the identification process the 1st of july almost two weeks ago while the more. last week they buried the cacophony. his father told me he is jealous of other bereaved have small body parts. i returned to the crash site many times last year.

reportingreporting from they're has not been easy because of the cost and showing. for instance a greater right next to the rebel occupied we have been called. [speaking in native tongue] we of course all no the separatist started this war and russia back. the institute have put forward concrete proof. one of the reports a story about russian soldier online

contract them back to russia and the place is of ukraine in february. myself i saw rebels wearing russian flak jackets on the shoulders for the 1st time two days after the crash. these guys are not sure if you can see it they were pretty friendly. a few hours just before forces to the footage. otherwise the shooter heads off. recently arrested and i had a nuclear bomb shelter of ukrainian side of the phone line. the new york times andof the story on it. the rebels show it every few days. despite the fact several workers died of the showing of last year 2,000 workers producing.

many of them actually live on the territory because the bomb shelter is safer than the surrounding villages. thethe staff and the local authorities to complain that the ukrainian army is hiding its artillery making workers and civilians a target for the rebels. they say there own army is ignoring the request to move text of the positions. i have experienced other tragic results the central bus station. people living in bomb shelters lots of kids. as you can see. civilian apartment of the dnr being hit by rockets and villages being totally destroyed in the crossfire. in the catastrophe on both sides.

mike with the use of numbers on that. about us with and training give is still on its own. i believe the downing has had a very limited effect on development of the war in eastern ukraine. it did reshuffle international politics pretty in the cold war. but beside the dutch professor of social administration is said the dutch still seem to think that our country just has to fight this in other evil powers only existed abroad. after the crash a small country became part of his geopolitical crisis. it could be what 911 was the us. the defense policythe defense policy seems to be shifting and the government

has raised the defense budget and european countries seem to realize we have to upgrade intelligence .__this cautious not by the russians as the suspects at this moment. the prime minister is pointing out that we have to wait for the investigation committee report which comes out in october. as you no cna claim this report posted the rebels took in 187 down. i personally do not think this report will state that. the investigation team is just investigating the cause sources within the team say they are trying to keep the russian investigation involved pointing out the suspects is the task of the

public prosecutor runs its own investigation. as you probably no from our government suggested to install united nations tribunal for the prosecution. many legal experts are also skeptical about such a tribunal for various reasons early june i returned to the crash site but the father. he met with a rescue worker. the ground of the so-called site where his son died. he lay down roses which is supposed to keep evil in the village. [speaking in native tongue]

[speaking in native tongue] >> 23-year-old man who lost his 18-year-old brother recently said me that they say time heals this a time heals all wounds. after one year this one does not feel. thank you. [applause] >> the crash affected the netherlands. thank you so much for your reporting. now we have had some

discussion from our distinguished guests and i would like to ask them to come up and have a discussion on the stage. please simon, 80, michael. >> okay. this is a question for all of you. you know, exactly a year later. unfortunately for most people outside of this room are outside the netherlands of ukraine russia is anniversary barely registers just as the tragedy exploded on the world consciousness and quickly faded. why should the world keep paying attention? >> you know, a special monitoring mission is one of the things unfortunately

keeping ukraine in the headlines is very important that the media continue to cover the conflict. of course there's a lot of competition with what else is going on in the world the worst thing that could have right now is of the world converted his gaze. in terms of the disaster itself, they're is still quite a bit of interest. i think part we're finding because we do as much as we can to help facilitate access. have the privilege of working with professionals. professionals. and because of the restrictions on access is becoming increasingly difficult for many journalists to access the area. but we're doing whatever we can to get the information out of they're.

as i indicated in my presentation facing severe restrictions on access to the jamming of uav things like that. hopefully this we will hopefully this we will lift people we will have more access. of course we do report the propaganda war is going on which is amazing to watch. these can be taken one way or the other. as much is possible one of our strengths are in adobe to some of the puerto rico is the way i feel a part of her strength is our integrity and transparency in the fact that we report what exactly we see with our own eyes and ears and try to stay away from speculation. >> i must say because of the crash i have the opportunity to report much more we have.

that is what you can say. it is getting more and more difficult to move around. i around. i was they're in june. right now you have to have passes from both sides of the conflict to get around. just talking to give you an example to get they're probably seven or 8 miles or something, the factory to just cross the frontline in on the checkpoints especially the ukrainian side, checking everyone very well now. these. these checkpoints. so it is difficult. one thing was surprised me a lot i must say that i referred to in 187 did not really affect the war much.

krugman is caps on denying any involvement as well as in. and that is something scientists people who no much more politics thanand i do have to judge but is something that surprised me a lot. >> as a citizen of a country that has been to portion be affected, it is still very much part of the discussion why should the rest of the world keep paying attention? >> yeah.yeah. as i told you, a lot of people are frustrated with our government and the investigation committee are so silent. i really want to here something players is. there's a lot of controversy about the fact that we're not hearing anything.

her prime minister is so cautious to.anybody out as a suspect. but it is just a few months now we here more. something that that is really need. >> if they come out and start pointing the figure, the action. >> well, it does. that is a knew political from. if they do so of course it's a small country. very difficult to deal with a big country like russia. even for your it will cause a lot of problems. think about it. more sanctions. but where would we -- you have the gas. there are a lot of big issues which have to be solved. also the government is

looking out the problem. but on the other hand of course, it is reasonable to have the investigation committee work. >> will come back to the disconnection. i think it you wanted to say something. >> the question you asked her why should the world not over its case. i think you know, it was an extremely big event.event. i think a lot of people the majority of people know somebody who was affected. i was in the netherlands at the time theliving there for about a year. even just being in the country you can feel how tragic it was. i think for the propaganda war of michael mentioned otherwise the russia is

putting out russian state where see it denying friends of those who were killed the truth and denying the closure. for this reason it remains extremely important for the world not to hurt his gaze and for people to try and get the answers about what happened and think, you no it is an extremely important for your and for the netherlands and the parent of the world was not over its case. >> i do not think it's going anywhere. right now is the calm before the storm because we're all waiting for these reports to come out, the two different investigations, the one and what happened in the one interviews of fault. once those things come out and people realize that the downing) qaddafi moment the beginning of his isolation from the rest of the world.

it's a different storyxd. you can't isolate the entire country of russia as easily as you as i said for so many years. but the same emotion and desire we will be they're once all the eyes are dotted and the teacher crossed and all ofthe statesman have to tell the public that they believe that the russian military was behind it. and so you know, i think right right now we're talking about it because the anniversary of the talking a lot more about this down the line, maybe for decades to come. >> okay. what happens we have this proposal to create a tribunal to try those responsible. the russians on the security council.

the city report comes out for great is not responsible. and what happens? >> even if there isn't a un tribunal with you to vote with the general assembly and russia doesn't have a veto so they're still the potential for that to happen. but most western countries are going to stand by the findings of the dutch investigators. i don't think they need a un tribunal. the un tribunal is needed for the russian people. the trouble for them is that if there is a tribunal they recognize the points the finger at specific actors down from the commander-in-chief was theto push the button that implicates the entire russian people. for ordinary russians to resolve themselves in the process whichyour country and they themselves can recognize as being objective process. i think it is important for russia primarily.

>> i just want to wind it back a little bit. what actually happened that day year ago. david mentioned thanks everyone a result. it seems like from the very beginning they're were doing there utmost to make sure the fact that anyway agreed on constantly throwing and information,information, the waters. all of you did investigative work. how do youhow do you do you know, grasp this with the russians are trying to make everything disintegrate? >> something about it. pretty hard to check things. that's why i respect.

especially in the netherlands it's hard to find people willing to talk on record because everyone is involved in the investigation committee it seems. for instance the famous 21st of july press conference given russia moscow you have the radar images saying that this 25 there's 25 jet fighter of the year at the time. i tried for months to go radar expert on the record just looking at the image and saying something genuine or not. essentially i got a few experts from an italian guy,guy, the european top expert on radar images. it appeared that the points that the russians.out as being as you 25 is actually falling debris from him 817. itit is a simple as that. it was hard to make the story. everyone is being silent the moment. if the investigation report comes out things like that become much more clear.

>> and i think they want to push them back as far as possible. no one wants to have to confront the fact they have to somehow deal with russia. i also kind of did not agree with the idea that it did not change the course of the work. i think of a lot more unity in europe for sanctions and the threat of further sanctions that the state russia's hand itin terms of may be expanding they're operations to other parts of ukraine. we can never know for sure, sure, but there is a deterrent effect of the threat of greater sanctions which would definitely be with for this tragedy. >> talk to someone about russia's increasing isolation. when cnn leaked the primary findings of the dutch investigators couple days ago russia's did an

extensive report on it and said, showedsaid showed images again the video of that infamous press conference and said we tried it out all this information. we hadwe had concrete facts and days. no proof no evidence nothing. and this gets back to my question about facts everyone agrees on how you deal with the fact that you are dealing with something that is quintessentially russian we present evidence in the seattle see any evidence. in all your roles how do you deal with that? >> i mean, the kremlin and the media apparatus. >> there winning the propaganda war is like you said they're saying we present at all kinds of stuff and you didn't.

everyone is screaming online where are the americans satellite images. while we see that? and it's amazing. in the netherlands a lot of dutch critic is. why don't you show the image of the satellite images. even until now we don't no if our investigative committee actually has those images. so that is definitely very difficult. >> the work of organizations like going can help the people in the netherlandsdgsj trust that? >> not everybody, of course. a lot of lot of people do, and it has been very important. i have experienced. old-school reporters discovered they're are a lot of people online are doing things we're probably not capable of. that is a person. i think think it's very good that we can help

each other out. it is online research stuff. go back to russia and is to ukraine to check on the spot. >> my investigation of the russian soldier in eastern ukraine basically we shared photographs andin this photograph was taken here, here, here. >> geolocation.geolocation. how do we no what is true and what's false. for us for example verification is something we do. locate exactlydo. locate exactly a look at what the actual original spot was. we deal with things that have been uploaded by the person who actually took the image you have no idea.

if it's a real person you can check out. you no this is true. and i think for example, is the russians began often that throughout that why we have presented stuff and you haven't. well, they never actually really talked about anything that has been presented in russian media. that's an interesting thing. the day after my investigation came out and written about half an hour on twitter. later that evening basically they had been on the screen we can see my name. who is this person and

instead they are attacking him for who pays you and so on. you know money. extremely well-funded organization. it's convenient to. it's convenient to say the west don't have anything to live deliberately tried to confuse everyone. >> if i could say something as someone who deals with a lot of journalists around the world. will we see a tear from journalists is a bunch of cutting, slashing budgets. there is a lot of interest from a lot of colleagues we work with. as more and more being is moving the newsrooms and recording budgets are cut is difficult to do the old-school investigative reporting. i talked to colleagues of mine. i think there is an awareness. it is incumbent upon us to help consolidate the work of journalists will make it easier for them to go to the field in which we operate, that is providing broadcast quality people but

there are ways to get around the cuts. it is unfortunately hitting severely. >> and it is the opposite of what is happening and official budget -- official russian media. >> it is interesting because some of the investigative work going on is done at there desks going through geolocation. there is no replacement for traditional gumshoe work that these gentlemen do they in and day out. again, anything we can do to help facilitate is important. >> you mentioned that this would be some kind of accountability and process of just begun. if you look at the russian

you know not even sense and 817 can down the russians are getting a completely different picture from an entirely different. and he also mentioned russia's isolation. information we they are becoming isolated. if you look at channel one couple days ago is presented. all of the stuff proving the satellite images are photoshop, those corrections never run on russian tv. how do you deal with the fact that as far as the russian population goes ukrainians shut down with american help and try to place the blame on russia and even the osce is seen as most importantly russia. how do you deal with that? >> they will never want to understand and try totry to understand. they have dug in the depositions command that's that.

maybe an arrest made in the power of the united nations process of some kind. i think the united nations is something that the russian your pockets to all the time at least rhetorically and talks about how it's an important institutions in any recognizable to be a part of it. so i'm not saying the suddenly everyone's eyes are going to open but at least be a segment of the population following things that are coming from outside the russian media's fear that hopefully will get something out of it. i think it will be important to russian future generations will not now. >> anyone? >> an example yesterday, an australian broadcaster. video made looking at the debris and commanding on that. at the end of the clip for something about it and

fighter. we had -- -- my network had a voice that was look at it. the video is not a little. there are clips already. if you compare that to the analysts saying that the voices and the voice sounds like it's been dubbed. also more hollow. so they're is no discussion about the genuine. if it is dubbed this is pretty unprecedented. these kind of it is being manipulated in such waiver you don't no yet is knew. the propaganda war is pretty serious. >> fake experts,experts, fake think tanks. did you want to add? >> well, it reminds us the

unique organization. by the way, i should want people that we are unique and this isin the sense that 57 participating states including russia, ukraine us, canada by consensus mission was born by consensus. theconsensus. event it was extended by consensus. it is important to have these international bodies and instruments. i am often asked why -- is dead or i say my answer to that is it is so crucially important to have a roadmap in place and also have a forum for dialogue. the worst thing that could happen is no dialogue whatsoever and no roadmap in place. partplace. part of our we will, of course, is to help facilitate that dialogue. much of the trilateral contact group. things are extremely fragile right now. a lot of trigger happiness a lot of ammunition built up, heavy weaponry the

things that are extremely, extremely tense. that is why it is important to have the dialogue. >> one more question and then we will open it up. you up. you alluded to this in your presentation. political change happening. the mh 17 crash. another with the rush i used to have a very close relationship. what was that reevaluation like? >> ii don't think you can see it, to be honest. as youas you know, in europe we depend a lot on russian gas as well as economic interconnections. we were pretty severe. the prime minister also of course the economic sanctions after that. nothing really happened.

we have had our political and a connection with russia is a pretty normal way. i don't think you can see it yet. the furniture defense budget and stuff like that getting more clear. we have clear. we have our knew government budget. i think it's too early to say .. i think it's interesting to see our government is taking their hands offof anything. >> and what about men on the street how they view the russians were and after the crash. >> i think i don't no exactly. the more interesting thing i find also in holland aa group of people -- it's hard to say a

big the group is. sortsort of like a libertarian right-wing kind of group. very muchvery much anti- european union. and for that is in the probe and yeah. within the netherlands despite the fact russian separatists the people who actually criticizing the media and our government for being too -- >> all right. we will open the floor to questions. and let's make sure they their questions, the statements. >> the winters. since you mentioned this a couple times you talked about the channeling of your drones. my understanding is that is a lot of jamming going on but it is to mess up the targeting by heavy artillery the heavy artillery

from the ukrainian side so that they can hit the rebel targets accurately. do you see this jamming is just directed as you do some are prevent what you are doing or is it something is taking place because the jamming is going on to make sure people can't identify targets it has nothing to do with you directly. >> a good question. the jamming is been going on for weeks if not months for wide swaths of territory. i believe it was this past week one of our drones actually spotted a jamming vehicle. jeb the video feed the confuses the gps system. they have to put in manual control and fly back and is not only that drones have been targeted by jamming for live fire. one of them is an up because of that. there is some anxiety and if i can put it that way. i don't know that if you

remember oncebut once the big numbers australians and dutch experts came in destroying the police but a drill with so they could have an area like the sky. at that time they're were so nervous that did not allow it to the sky. that was an unfortunate thing because it was thought at that time of the drug could help spot human remains personal belongings. >> flying over during the memorial. i'm not sure which network to put them in the sky. allow by the rebels recently the video drones up. >> at verona. john mentioned kirk it in

his opening remarks that no one else said another word about him. can anyone say what has become of him back as anyone done any further investigation of the indications between the various other people after the incident? >> as far as i no i only met him personally in moscow. he is around and goes to various fundraisers. he very rarely gives interviews the big networks but he does give areas to nationalist friendly sort of internet youtube channel type stations quite often. and i don't think he has any direct control over what's going on in eastern ukraine anymore.anymore. i think you have been banned from participating in our is just sort of a loudmouth who likes to criticize the government's policy from expanding were further. >> he did track down the

prime minister of the republic of the time. in an interview appointment with him. we showed up at his office but he was not there. we play dress-up picture newspaper of a colleague of mine. he bought inhe bought in the sky in a café. >> a journalist hang out. >> ten international journalists drinking beers suddenly bumping in. >> it was a mini scandal. it did not look very good. in there defense they were all drunk. >> the cato institute. a couple observations and suggestions.

anonymous investigations that have been done. it does not look like he used the information that has been uncovered by russian and ukrainian partners. at least i have not seen any reference. this is an enormous information. very 1stvery 1st few days after the tragedy. i think for the overall picture is extremely useful to combine what you have done has been done by russians and ukrainians. a really full picture and it gives me you are saying that in mind, just not russians. that's a very important difference.

not all russians follow not the. another suggestion. it seems to me the conflict launch in april we suggest that you would exclude crimea fully occupation and taxation. what has been reported on extensively which is not essentially correct because moore has been studied according to the russian ministry of defense. look at the mental. >> okay. let's keep it to a question. >> exactly what you have in the announcement shutdown mh 17. we know bush the button. >> the question is shut down. >> no. he formulated. but my question to make it more accurate to get your divorce the like to ask

everybody. >> i cannot answer that. >> i can't either, either, but i'll give you the answer i gave journalists. we willwe will wait for the investigators to come up with a conclusion. >> i thinki think there's a lot of substantial evidence that points to the fact that it was a partnership and a lot of potential evidence that shows you can operate as you had training. >> current training. >> right. okay. and so i think we consider is a lot of evidence pointing toward russia. but i think the question of who gave the order i we

will not necessarily if the pinnacle. he said no looking at is where your screen. he has two seconds to make the decision that he pushes the button. i suppose he had general orders will push the button i don't think a specific order. then again just pulling stuff out of. >> yes, to follow up i talked to david crawford description of what it takes to operate these. forty seconds to make a decision. my question is -- it is the sooner or later this kind of incident what we have given the fact that the equipment was they're in the amount of time you have to make a decision. >> according to an interview us on russian tv yesterday with the russian aviation expert, if you bring something like that in isolation that the other parts of the echelon which every does it tell you exactly what your looking at you can't really know for sure what you are shooting at and it wasit was pretty much criminal to bring it without the rest of the

equipment on its own. it can fire on its own and hit things but it is not as accurate. you don't see what's going on in the sky as well go for five or six or seven pieces. >> that is the implication right now. it was not a a complete system for vehicles which are supposed to be they're. >> my question is we will we are not looking at necessarily put malicious.on someone because of all the circumstances, but circumstances, but we are looking for who is responsible. and most importantly it is just like here in washington whatever scandal they're is, is the cover of the because the bigger issue. so this incident took place however you want to describe it, but the bigger issue is what happened subsequently in terms of access for the family and information on the. is they're a way to get the

russians to understand that is the issue. >> what do you mean by axis for the families? >> there was no access for recovery. in other words the whole investigation and the subsequent dealing with the incident. >> well i think the rebel leaders a lot of times have been saying from the beginning on the crash that was open to anyone who want to go they're even armed dutch forces like a policeman. i'm not sure if they would have let them but thatbut that is definitely something they have set for one time. "i'd all experts, but they did not come. do the dirty work and in the way they are right because

the dutch experts did not come directly because it was a war zone. maybe you were a little little bit afraid of what would happen and they did not want to recognize the people's republic. as a whole discussion about signing agreement stand over the bodies. michael knows more about airfare truthful not. but what for journalists and experts. >> as i pointed out that there was a time when things had to be done and is in numbers of dutch industrial in experts cease-fire was agreed to. big numbers out they're. we had a day or two of work and showing up in nearby we had to leave. we don't no who broke the cease-fire. they know they are but

there was a lot of concern for many weeks showing nearby. you know, they're was a lot of bravery demonstrated in many of the experts. i remember that this is my peace the 1st day a largea large number of dutch and australian experts came on the crash site the asteroid commander said treat every day in the field as if it's your last. the.being we don't no how much time is available to collect human remains and personal belongings. a very difficult situation. >> i. one question. is they're any -- trying to think through what the purpose of this misfire could have been, is they're any news other than shoot down aircraft? is a general artillery weapon? unsurprised mother russia bring one end to the theater

of conflict if it is only purpose as a weapon system to take down aircraft. >> a lot of ukrainian activity. they shut down a few plays previously. around that time ten ukrainian air force, navy. fourteen i don't have been shut down. they were bombing the area. >> it was like a necessary thing for the military to have such a. >> what do you mean? >> of course. >> it would be correct. the only thing they were shutdown. [inaudible]

>> they don't no what caused the crash. >> no confirmation. >> wait for mike. >> okay. all right. >> is to.out going back to the original question, social media local groups in the area. suspicions on the day, the attack, you no people suspecting that there was going to be a plane and coming. all the chatter about people getting excited of them might be another ukrainian plane and some bombing. exploit that is. but there was a reason to transport the missile system to the area on that particular day.

>> other questions. >> i. if you allow me i would like to take a step back from the image and ask you about right now especially for those of you who still travel to the field regular what you make of the implementation of the cease-fire agreement. >> well, as you have into rounds. in february very clear roadmap was outline for everyone to follow. crucial of course was maintaining a cease-fire. also removal of heavy weaponry. thethe cease-fire as i indicated in my comments' only record any comedy

violations almost every day for pretty much every day. in terms of heavy weaponry they're were three basic steps. one was to provide both sides of an inventory of what they have. a baseline that we could work of a. secondly was to advise us of the routes that we will be taken the move the heavy weaponry and thoroughly to identify where the storage sites are aware of the weapons we will be kept out of harms way. the 1st.we will we never as far as i no righti no right now is useful information from both sides. ..

>> >> and the very date we went to injure -- to enter with the ukrainian checkpoints

that that we cannot enter at all. but we did enter it. but then relented to the roof then with the craze started to see heavy artillery. it was firework's just your average day.

>> >> with the correct point we have to look ahead one of the things the you can

imagine as a huge threat to civilians and the massive destruction of the infrastructure with roads and railways and then to three months ago with the costa every construction it is impeding the flow so they can go into ukraine proper to get medical a and things like that.

but to save 2.3 the way the wind would it then people in in russia if it is half a million or 1 million then to have 100,000 people so how many stiefel are less now with your assessment? >> a very difficult number but i can answer this way. you probably have heard over the last weeks we have been trying to not only observed what is going on but to a range to go down for a ceasefire but so civilians can return but in the most recent report that villages

now empty and that could have been avoided your also at the village closest to the airport to a few weeks back it is virtually empty. whole lot of us settlements you have but those that are left behind are indeed elderly or physical disabilities and some children. every also have to amend it -- with the toll it takes with the number that are killed and injured with a social the stresses and even before the conflict it wasn't very well set up as a large number is it possibly

help what they want is a sense of formality thought. i worked as a long time but to have a prolonged period of time with those deserted villages what you do with this region? it doesn't seem to exorbitant and what do you about that? >> in february and at that

time there are only five families left the rest that the ukrainian state on one side of the village for a few months and with the crossfire not just one house to be an armed it is difficult for villages like that in the near future. and during the war it is strange to see but so many people fled the e economies

as they stand for a long time because many is not coming from kiev as tensions and industries that are at a standstill so i am curious how long they can survive being independent. >> i did 23 minutes long report said that not to cage that with anything there are wretched -- soldiers sent to eastern ukraine and the answer for what happened lies with russia there needs to be pressure if the conflict will end it is up

to russia to end the war there. all measures should be towards pushing to ending the war. the one thing they always repeat to us you want to go home? they don't until they are assured they will not be killed by fire. and the shooting has stopped there is an effort to do mine those bridges and railway is. you need a lot of experts on the ground. >> how are we doing on time?

>> five more minutes? >> i am formally with the radio liberty i am still perplexed and puzzled by the dutch government's reaction is there not a realization that by being ambiguous they are a composite it rushes denial cover-up and ally of everything that is happening? >> looking into the soul san the minds, yes what is happening they tried to distance to blame the russians at this point.

>> can you speculate? >> i do not like to do that as a journalist but there is criticism. there has been some surveys from university if they are trusted and when they brought their buddies back for repatriation admissions then it was 60 percent but after that when it started to happen to trusted the government went down again why they do this i cannot tell you if you want to pick

sides before the investigation is completed it doesn't seem but then to have the ongoing investigation. >> one thing i said is there are investigators in that committee the government will say they will leave that committee to make them speculate delicate with relation wenzel lot harder and also the investigation itself more difficult because you want to access for you are very disappointed i can see.

[laughter] they give to our panelists for hosting us. another question? >> eight you for coming i want 2.0 there is a memorial march at 5:30 p.m. starting and a at lafayette square just so everybody knows. thank you. the queue. [applause]"q&a" sunday night.

>> "washington journal" continues. host: paul butler georgetown university law school. how significant is this? guest: this is epic, peter. the president went to a federal prison on thursday. on tuesday, he talked to the naacp and made the most passionate speech about justice from a president, i think, since jfk, and on monday he commuted 46 instances of people that had been sentenced under these akoni and drug laws -- akoni in drug laws that everyone thinks we need to get rid of. a huge week for equal justice under the law. the president, i think, is focusing on this issue because well, it is the right thing to do.

everyone in america really does deserve a second chance, including americans who made mistakes and are now in the criminal justice system. we do not have to treat them like they are garbage because they are fellow citizens. it is not politically controversial. i'm sure we will get into this, but there is bipartisan support across the board for fixing the broken justice system and i think the president also understands this is going to save a lot of money. he kept talking about $80 billion. that is so much we spend locking up nonviolent offenders. what if we could spend that money on community investments like preschool for everyone, or job training? again, it just makes sense for so many reasons, but most presidents have talked about getting tough on crime and treating people who are in prison even more harshly. this is a president that understands that for community safety we really have to treat

these people in ways where they get services because when they come home, come to the community, they will be valuable members of that community. host: you mentioned the president's speech at the naacp in philadelphia. here is a little bit of the president. [video clip] pres. obama: around one million fathers are behind bars. one in nine african-american children have a parent in prison. what is that doing to our communities? what is that doing to those children? our nation is being robbed of men and women who could be workers and taxpayers, could be more actively involved in their children's lives, could be all models, could be community leaders, and right now they are locked up for a nonviolent offense.

so, our criminal justice system isn't as smart as it should be. it is not keeping us as safe as it should be. it is not as fair as it should be. mass incarceration makes our country worse off and we need to do something about it. [applause] host: paul butler, how did we get here -- how did we get to this increase in incarceration and some of the statistics that we will go through? guest: so, peter, the next day at the naacp conference, former president bill clinton spoke and he admitted it was partly his fault-based on some law that he signed in congress in the 1990's that dramatically increased sentencing for low-level drug offenders. now, there had been a crack

epidemic, so there was concern about violence associated with the market for that drug, so that was the context for which he signed the bill that dramatically increased the amount of people in prison. when a look at the prison population quadrupling since the 1970's, it is not that we americans started committing crimes that we did not commit before, but it is a result of admission. we are admitting people to prison for low-level drug offenses, which is driving the population explosion, and also sentencing -- we are sentencing people way longer than we used to. but to his credit, the clinton at the naacp, -- bill clinton at the naacp, said i did it, and it was a mistake to -- mistake. there have been leaders in this

effort. it is so expensive. texas, the redest of the red states, has been a leader in letting people out of prison where it is not serving a public safety function for them to be there and reducing crime at the same time. 32 states have both reduced their prison population and lowered their crime rate. host: we have set aside our fourth line. the first three numbers are usual -- democrat, republican, and independent. we set aside the fourth line for this segment for those of you that have had experience with the criminal justice system. that could be in law enforcement, that could be someone that has been incarcerated. want to hear your experience and get paul butler to comment on those expenses as well. 202-748-8003.

that is a number for you to call. professor butler, there is a statistic put out by the sentencing project that we want to show you. it says here the lifelong likelihood of imprisonment for black men is one in three. is that accurate? guest: well, one in three black men will certainly be arrested and have some kind of involvement with the criminal justice system. the numbers are much larger for white men. again, many fewer white men have contact with the criminal justice system than african-americans, and part of that is looking at the war on drugs -- the failed war on drugs. peter, i taught at college campuses for the last 15 years and i know that african-americans do not use or sell drugs more than any other group. the national institute of

health, where you are in d.c., says blacks are about 13% of the people that use drugs, but if you go not file from where you are, to the justice department, the bureau of justice statistics they will tell you over half of the people locked up for drug crimes are african-americans. 30% of people that do the crime 50% of people that do the time. it is less about law enforcement, but police focusing like a laser on young black and latino men. a lot of black men and latino men do not get a second chance. they do not get the benefit of the doubt that white people get, and frankly, people of the president's age and my age, got in the day. it used to be if a cop found you and some weed in your car, he

might throw it away, make you call your parents to tell them what you did, and now they lock you up, and that is one reason why there are vast disparities. with violent crime, it is different. there are street crimes that african-american men commit disproportionately and the president talked about that as well. that is all about community investment and reducing structural barriers that prevent him women and men of color from having the same opportunities that other americans have. host: professor butler, in "usa today" this morning, steve cook has an op-ed to the editorial and he says drug laws keep our nations safe. he is president of the national association of assistant u.s. attorneys. "those promoting the weakening

guest: yeah, so there is bipartisan legislation in congress, the safe justice act that targets, i think, the bad guys, that that editorial is focused on, so we are looking at the big time drug traffickers -- the people that are importing serious drugs like heroin and cocaine into the country. everyone agrees that, you know, the criminal justice system has a place for them, that law enforcement officers ought to be interested in them for public safety reasons. that is not who is driving the exploding prison population. the problem with our drug law enforcement now, again, it has been selected, focused on

african-americans, and it really has zero in on the street-level dealers, low-level dealers. you make about as much money selling drugs on the corner as you do working at mcdonald's. it is desperate work for people that do not have other opportunities. i do not think any responsible person thinks the way to treat the problem is stick those men and women in a cage for 10 years and see what happens when they get out. 95% of people that are locked up, home. they get out. the issue is when they get out what kind of citizens have we prepare them to be? -- have we prepared them to be? if you do not get the job training, a ged, high school diploma, even college -- medical services, appropriate mental health care, you are not going to be a contributing member of society.

you are going to make your community worse, not better. we have to be focused on these 95% of folks getting out -- ways to make them responsible members of society. host: paul butler serves as federal prosecutor with the u.s. department of justice. he served as a white-collar criminal defense attorney with williams and connolly and is a professor of law at georgetown university law center. david in flemington, new jersey, on our independent line, you are the first up. caller: thank you for taking my call. i believe 9/11 gave our country the worst of oil -- both worlds. i see these scandals with the tsa, servicemen being killed in chattanooga, i do not see a reduction in real terror, but i think people in law enforcement use 9/11 in terms of ordinary citizens to give them a license

to be authoritarian to the max for simple things. host: paul butler, do you believe we are living in more of a police state than we used to? guest: you know, there are interesting concerns about civil liberties that have been highlighted since 9/11. i can say one thing that happened after 9/11, which was an encouraging development, is that the fbi got out of the drug business and started focusing on terrorism. i do think that 9/11 realigned our sense of what the real threats to our country our -- our, and we can have a conversation about whether we should be focused on foreign terrorism, or domestic homegrown terrorism whether we should think about what happen in charleston as a terrorist act, which i certainly think that we should, but a lot of the

surveillance and concerns about civil liberties that people have after 9/11, guess where those came from. they came from the war on drugs. i think it is absolutely right that if we are concerned about how much power the police have this state of surveillance that lots of folks feel our country is evolving to or devolving to -- when we start these drug tony and -- to come in problems, locking people up, putting them in a cage, i do not think there is any way to keep the genie in a bottle. it is corrosive. i think it is very important to be concerned about the folks that are in the criminal justice system because they are fellow human beings. they are fellow citizens. they are fellow travelers on this planet.

but it is also important to be concerned about them because again, if it is them today, it might be you tomorrow. host: 500-5000 white people currently -- 500-5000 -- 505, thousand white people currently in jail. host: alexander is an washington d.c., on our democrats line. caller: good morning. i know my concern can take a long time to really get to the depths and the bottom of this problem. there is a serious problem in the present system. the only way this is going to stop is by helping our kids, to

educate them, and bring them in a position where they can be able to fend for themselves. putting people in prison systems -- i am going to tell you, i was the victim of a crime i did not commit. the day i came out -- i have been reformed. i have than anything i could possibly do and i'm still trying to help to get this cycle to stop repeating itself again and again. not everybody in this society in america has done something desperately wrong to be going into a prison system like it is a revolving door. i mean, if you want to be fair, this system is the one that is failing. there are a lot of people innocently going to prison for these -- i am not saying people should not be punished -- violent offenders should be punished and should pay the

price for what they have committed, but for a nonviolent offender to be going into the prison system and to be doing all of this time, it is unfair. host: alexander, thank you. paul butler. guest: alexander, i feel your pain. i hear the emotion in your voice and i understand that because prison is a violent inhumane place. we saw president obama look into that tiny jail cell with a commode that is not even have a seat and say for one person to be in here is kind of crazy, but for three people -- three people to live in this little cage which is how that system operated for a long time, and now you are down to two people, again, you would not want that for your worst enemy if you knew

your worst enemy is going to get out of that cage at some point and return home. i understand the pain there. when you, again, look at these young men who are the main people who are behind bars now again, lots of nonviolent drug offenders -- when you stick them in that cage 43, 5, 10 years that is like sending -- for 3 5, 10 years, that is like sending down to finishing school for crime. when they come out they are not going to be better people. one of the things i am so excited about is this safe justice act that we are hoping might come up next week to be considered by congress -- bipartisan support from

republicans, representative bobby scott a progressive democrat, speaker boehner came on board yesterday that he supports this -- so, this is going to make a difference, a big difference, because it is going to reduce the number of people who are admitted to prison by getting rid of some of these harsh, mandatory, minimum sentences, and it is going to provide some services for people once they are locked up. incentives to have them go to high school or at least complete their ged and get the kinds of help here that they need so that they will return us contribute a members of society rather than you know, as better criminals because now, if you look at what happens when folks come out after being locked up, in a lot of jurisdictions they get the

proverbial subway token p on the backa,t good luck, -- p on theat back -- pat on the back, good luck, and then we that vicious cycle. republicans, democrats -- this is an issue that is bringing folks together. host: back to the sentencing project statistics, you can see from 1925 through about 1972 the prison population was pretty steady, then it started to rise and went up increasingly. 1984 on, a pretty steep climb up to right now. it is about 1.5 million. william in iowa has had express with the criminal justice system. what is that experience you have had, william? caller: i am not going to expect

everyone to understand all of the language in the legal system. i was an curious, one that looks at the court at an in-between point with and not on the court's side, not on the defendant's side, but look at how the system is, how the case needs to be reviewed, and how a brief needs to be put together to give an opinion. as a friend of the person watching that system play out. i have actually seen judges actually break the law, sticking up for the prosecutor, and it was just appalling. i witnessed it because i watched the defendant -- where the prosecutor did not show a

forecourt, and when the prosecutor did not show up for court, -- for court, and when the prosecutor did not show up for court, there was another hearing. host: i apologize. we have to keep this moving. what is the bottom line you want to convey? caller: bottom line is there was evidence that one of the jailers came through and said we had video of the prosecutor that was here. we were ecstatic because he was thinking that he was trying to protect the prosecutor and the judge but he was protecting us because we wanted the evidence, but they would not let us have the video of the prosecutor being there because he never was there. host: all right, let's leave it there. paul butler, any comment for the caller? caller: you know, when you talk about that role --guest: you know, when you talk about that wool you had in the court

system, there are creative ways of having judges think about social problems and helping to resolve social problems in ways that do not involve locking everybody up. now there are new drug courts focus on rehabilitation. i think we also have to start thinking about alternatives to arrests. there has been so much focus on incarceration, appropriately, because it is so harsh expensive, and counterproductive to public safety, but now we are starting to understand that arrest is also a point at which people enter the system and start having outcomes that are hard to reverse. once you get the arrest record, it makes it hard to get a job. my mom always says why don't these guys just go work admit donald -- go work at mcdonald's. it is often