. it is a discussion on politics, and this is live coverage on book tv from c-span2. [inaudible conversations] >> good afternoon and welcome to the final panel of this amazing day humanities programming at the harlem book fair. it's my pleasure to be here to introduce our moderator. i want to say a bit about her. these are fabulous authors whose books are available at the book fair directly outside of the barnes & noble not horrible tent. you'll go outside, purchase a book. you will come back and have it signed by some amazing people. does that make sense? yes. thank you so much.much. and i'm not hustling. i am sharing with you the lovely moment of having a book from these people i have assigned. our moderator for this amazing panel for strikes me

as timely's. a huge professor of the studies and faculty associate at princeton university. the author of prospects of the 3rd politics of poetics and hip-hop, and we are beautiful and be up terrible for racial inequality in the united states. it's. [applause] >> i am going to begin by introducing my fellow panelists briefly and then we will just get right into it so. to my immediate right is señor calton roberts director of the institute for research and african-american studies and associate professor of history and associate professor osos your medical

sciences at the school of public health at columbia university. he writes teachers and lecturers widely on african-american history urban history, had a history of social movement. his book was published by the university of north carolina press in 2,009's. the political economy urban geography and race between a late 19th century and the mid-20th century a time which encompasses the jim crow era and the bacterial pollution to the advent of antimicrobial therapies. professor chris lebron yale university and received his phd from mit in 2009 and is the author of the award-winning book the color of our shame and justice in justice in our time and has also written a peace about race in america. to his right his professor now irvin painter who

currently lives in western newark new jersey author and historian the edwards professor of american history america at princeton university author seven books including the history of white people creating black americans, african-american history in the committee and sojourner truth. she is also a professional painter works digitally and manually on artists books most recently on our history by no painter .27. and ancestral arts'. professor painter received her phd at harvard and her msn painting from the rhode island school of design. please join me in welcoming our panelists. [applause] we are hear to talk about

politics and a time of crisis. and i was thinking we could begin by thinking about the current state of affairs. and we just think about the last week we have a pretty dramatic way whence were thinking about this moment. in the past week we have encountered the deaths of two black women in police custody's. shortly before the mass murder at emanuel church in charleston. we celebrated -- that is probably the wrong word but remember the anniversary of there garner death's command so much has happened betwixt and between these moments. we have the data came out. 40 percent of black children live in poverty. the absolute number of black children living in poverty.

we have black unemployment remaining twice the rate of white americans etc. and so i want to begin by asking the question of all of you for the question that doctor king asked in 1967 where do we go from here? >> all right. i'll start. i think there are some people in the audience who share with me having lived through the 1960s. and having gone through the 60s' and then coming back around it gives you a real sense if you want to be pessimistic about it how things have not changed that much. things have changed a lot but still as you mentioned a

lot to look for's. what i would like to do is not to focus solely on what we have to the poor because if you were here for the earlier session please bear with me. going to repeat something i said. i almost feel as if there is a conspiracy to keep us from doing our work by engaging us constantly with atrocities. as. as a historian and as a person who has lived many decades now, i don't feel that somehow more black people are being murdered. i think we're simply hearing about it. and in a very sad and perverse way a stuff for i suppose. but my real topic is that we have to find means of coming

to terms with the atrocities' tomb of finding steps to counter them whether it's going into the street whether it's joining an organization it's giving money probably have to be able to take a step. to do something already gives you some space. and then to continue on your own. >> so two things on my mind. a lot of people look around and see black men a couple rappers who are worth half a billion dollars are approaching that. lebron james being called king james. see, look, things are different. there was correct, and

they're has been a lot of change from the change and progress are two very different things. things can change, but that does not mean they look better's. things can look different. that does not mean you have moved forward. you change the scenery. >> actually had some progress. think your right about change, but they're has been progress. >> sure. >> that doesn't mean that everything is okay. >> my comment, the people who say what things are changed therefore we're done. i beg to differ a bit because by definition a crisis is a puncture or disruption of normal. usually whoever is the subject but this has been the normal for a long time, for centuries. the only difference now is

that maybe it's some folks are listening. for the 1st couple years it was a crisis for? technology made it possible for us to hear about it more the statistics. please join more black people. about the same.about the same. this kind of thing has been a story of black america. soso the question is, who is the coverage really for? this reversal the crisis is white americans without even realizing it's the moral depravity that regulates how black americans are governed, police surveilled, controlled. so maybe we'll we are getting is possibly a moment of genuine where we have the nation's attention. the question is worth a change from here.

i think there's something to be said about the pressure.and not letting up's. one of these atrocities happens. every time we say look, this is specific. more time to talk about history which is one of james baldwin's famous and most important themes folks like to forget the history what that means. >> please. >> i know you care. i knew him when he was a tiny chat. i think it is a crisis for us. again, i speak psychologically because i've heard so many people say oh my god. i can't take it anymore. the constant drumbeat of victimization really is something that makes people

feel badly not just where people. >> and i agree. the crisis is really for democracy for what has passed democracy which is clearly been in a state of decay for the past several decades. it's a crisis for governance i mean,, i think that is where the church angel happen. and i agree while we look for a moment they can prevent us from the real work which is also thinking about the structural which is often quite more dispersed, much more pervasive and insidious. and i. and i think to the question of where do we go from here we have been saying very creatively what we're doing to us all these structures. just for example i don't know why were surprised. i heard that present was the

1st sitting president to visit a prison. and then to my surprise, why would i be surprised. we do not live in a democracy where people -- a lot of people who are not in prison but have been imprisoned can go. they do not represent the constituency. so why would you -- you might go to the small town in iowa hoping to pick up a delegate why would you ever go to the super max. we have to rethink a lot of our assumptions. the level of disenfranchisement that happens. and all the way down. >> just to go back briefly about digital circulation. because part of this is not just that we have become increasingly aware of these atrocities before responding 's. i'm interested in to what

extent -- are you optimistic is the word, but are you hardened response is suggestive of the possibility for transformation, or does it strike you simply mobilization but not? what is your perspective on what has happened? >> if i may i think this moment of globalization is incredibly impressive. i think some of it is technological and the sense that i'm not sure that human history we have had such a pervasive network of communication spread, and it came in a time when we really before twitter or for the internet i mean, you no from what were the three channels you get your news from? i mean,, we have the kind of citizen journalism. you remember what they said about the new york times. that's it.

>> but that was in the newspaper. >> i do agree. >> the contrast the history of black newspapers, robust and diminished will arise. >> i might've misspoke. digital media. but we are at a moment but it certainly is intense organization and intense awareness. we were speaking in the green room before. i was just kind of joking around. i went to the bureau of justice statistics which keeps all the data on criminal justice. we have very little data of a police killings, for example. what we do do have in the case that they're has not been much change over the past ten years which means we're seeing now is always been going on. the differences we don't have an epidemic of police killings. we have an epidemic of people paying attention for being fearless enough to film.

the technology you still have to have a human body of the recording and knowing that they're can be repercussions. that is where it is. we are realizing the power does not cede anything. it is not insurmountable. this is a lot of hopeful ii think. i don't want to be probably has sure naïve particularly after the news of the past week. one wonders looking at the statistics how many other people died in the cells that we never knew about. >> on the one hand i think there is. that was pointing out the black newspapers historically have been on the front part but there's something different about this moment. ironically technology has a very democratizing factor.

anybody in this room right now that is something else happened you could begin surveilling right away. not even have to get home and be able of the rest of the world no like that. that is knew and different and powerful and something that i think it's, but i guess i will play level. it is something that we have to be a little cautious of. one surveillance and always be reversed, especially when you have the power's. everyone is clamoring for police officers to have a camera as a black it is already over surveilled the 1st place. that's what people need to think hard about. walking through neighborhood and you being just -- you don't have to be doing anything. police officers we don't record them as a matter of course. they're catching them in the act or something.

possibly to be recorded just crossing the street, walking in front of the bodega known for other kind of activities. what is a mean? this is something else. not to go back to september 11. a very peculiar thing happened. the solitude towers come down. and is played it over and over and over. the 1st ten times house horrified. the 50th time i started the kind of detached fascination. look at the building is going down. after you see it on loop 50 times the visceral reaction begins to get the old. there is something, we have to be cautious that just because these videos are hitting the web that by itself cannot do the work we needed to do. this begins to dull the senses. i am on leave currently in a

notnot going to do this frequently. come back every few days and there somebody new. i have not heard of us under blend. now it's kind of like every five or six days. there's no video. the guys getting shot. it's when that happens over and over again we have to take care that we simply don't say we're seeing it. has to have the effect of motivating people. and that is the danger of being so pervasive that it becomes a part of the regular new strain. cautiously pessimistic. >> i think those images, and i agree we can easily become inured. we speak is relevant that constant loop also been us often the one not just for the general public and seven of this audience 12 for the general public in the

looping quickly became frenzied fire anti-arab sentiment for the patriot act kemal most of things that looping the background from the's. you don't have to be entirely pessimistic understand that. i agree 100 percent. on the other hand, i think having this awareness command is the painful thing we all have to go through. we have to make sure people are saying it that you cannot run from these images. they will not be relegated to an obscure blog. the mainstream media will take a look at this'. from the pres.'s fabled bucketpresident's fabled bucket list, i'm not sure was on his agenda that is a prison in 2015 when he was 1st elected or even a 2nd time is elected. remove the tape that much

further. i'm not particularly disparaging, but i'm not also wholeheartedly in favor of everything he says. i think we very much have given him the credit for taking the initiative to visit the present. i think he's genuinely wanted to do it, but i think his awareness was raised about the work that people have been doing before he was elected. and now power is actually starting to acknowledge some of this. >> we will we see through the internet, through interconnectivity is very important. but i really was stress of a psychological side and the political side of the importance of action doing something. and that doing something can be in a street and it can be giving money and it can be

part of an organization. it can be riding. there are many ways of doing something but speaking as someone who has been through this and knows how long the struggle less we have to 1st have meetings' of doing something and then stepping away and returning to our work. when i say our work for me your work and your work and your work. i don't just mean the political work. for some people it will be political work. for some people it will be running for office. for some people it will be running reports that will get to the fbi or to the bureau of labor statistics. there are so many ways of doing it. we each have our own work and if we only talk to each other or talk to the world, to the web about our english

we impede our homework's and we are not simply black people in english or in anger. we're also writers, scholars, artists whatever else that you do. you need to do that as well. >> yeah. and the.that you make about the psychological wages resonates with respect to talking about september 11. one of the consequences people talked about after the fact is that those who watched the footage over and over again for more likely to have poster manage stress than those who actually on the ground. there is a way that the witnessing can become a deep wounding if we do not have the resources to do something in response. that is shifting gears a little bit for one of the critiques that has happened that has emerged about who

around the mobilize with respect to gender, with respect to gender identity sexual orientation. i mean, do you see -- in the primary critique being it has been much more common for people to mobilize around this gender heterosexual black men that all other categories people who are subject to police violence or any kind of deadly violence. but about that's the shifting. >> this is a prime example of the privileging or gender privileging of a male stance you feels strange saying that knowing especially as i grew up in the 1980s with things like the extension of the blackmail command entire political discourse. but nonetheless that is still what is. there is a privileging there. and that is a can of worms

it really becomes ultimately unproductive. when you start favoring heteronormativity think usually companies. you end up finding yourself close and uncomfortable with critiques make sure black families which has come down since well before the moynihan report's. the whole line of thought. i think the other thing about as well as that it quickly puts us up where we can talk about my brother's keeper. we have supporters, detractors. i am very skeptical. i think it puts us in a mindset of gender segregation cognitively which translates in the problems which is also an

appropriate as well. as a tactic it's completely -- i don't think were being productive's. [applause] >> your brother's keeper. >> i also agree you know, i think whatever has happened is an awful thing. strike that it has made the news as it has. but i would like to think our fields. one things that we think about is what is happening the opening up of the idea. what has happened locally american families to look ever used to look. i am hopeful that they can change but it is one of those things, american we

have to be ready's. i'm not sure without being fully attentive. part of it has to do with a certain kind of gender norm. that is not the right way think that i think. we have to be especially sensitive to whom we speak. i have been guilty. spoken of the issue for privileging black blackmail victims. we have to be more protective and police ourselves better. a very basica very basic idea that all black lives matter. is not a catchphrase. >> and that's we will result the mobilization in early may to put that back on agenda which is why is important we have the don elmore's of the world for theorizing helping sdis our way out of this.

ultimatelyultimately is about politics, action and doing, but we have to think very closely with the fear is actually goes they're. there is a discussion that has to be offered. the support to have those voices has leaders of the movement. >> and in some ways it distinguishes at least for me about this moment that there are clear black activists are at the forefront's and refusing to set aside issues of gender and sexuality for the sake of some amorphous solidarity that just happens to be an integral part of the work. >> argue that they are inseparable. >> right. >> right. >> newark we have a knew issue there. no longer new. mary baraka son. before that we had a charismatic who is now a us senator. cory booker has a much

higher profile nationally. cory booker was just a regular. he did not walk on water by any means. he had a very high-profile. what has happened in newark which is a city that does not have much money at all's is that the administration has been able to tap existing sources of money, support he and his administration agreed to federal oversight of the newer police which cory booker had his administration far off. so we can have important changes for instance, 2,000 young people have jobs in the city this summer simply because the administration has been active reaching for the use of existing resources.

so what i want to say is 1st of all, i think we will we talk about the importance of pushing on a per standard pushing on a cabinet are pushing on the administration that push starts on the local level. and part of what can be our action to keep our sanity can be acted at the local level. in fact, to say that it is more useful command it feels better at the local level because your working with your neighbors. >> ultimately the hashtag is only the beginning part. thatthat is the communication. >> certainly in newark is not the beginning. we still do retail politics. i went to my next-door neighbor to meet the candidate who became the mayor.

so politics still happens on the neighborhood level. and i think that is the more productive level in terms of making change that you can see and it's psychologically doing your work. >> one more comment and i'll just go back to the hope for change shifting away. i think in some sense what is happening aa source of hope call we're seeing in the committee. when out for a little bit. i'm now seeing the whole group of folks coming up that would have been shown the door. you can't wears jeans. you can't live your life like that, talkthat, talk

like that, look like that and be part of the committee i do think there is loosening up of what kind of identities can be counted as the ones we pay attention to. i think if we look at what's going on in some bergen -- urban culture of culture that's another source of loosening up. the movement within the black community about whose lives count. >> that's interesting. and i guess i see what you're saying, but i also see on some level it is a contraction of the range of ideas that are present's. >> éclat come back. >> actually, i want to go back to this dynamic within the local and national and international. part of what strikes me

command i really do agree with what your saying, so much of politics in terms of what you can actually have an impact on happens at the local level. at the same time for those who are marginalized amongst the marginal or those who are minority within minority the most vulnerable population it strikes me that accessing a national or international network actually does really important work as well in terms of being able to have your experience, your identity bolstered and support a larger scale. you see what i'm saying? i'm thinking about the increase in national and international council of collectivism. in so many cities we are talkingwe're talking about

the population that is vastly underemployed utilizing all kinds of markets but that networks nationally and globally in order to begin the processes of lobbying or to begin demonstrating protesting, organizing in ways that would be difficult to do on a local level and very vulnerable. >> my neighbor, former neighbor now moved away and taught at harvey milk school which has young people who come from troubled backgrounds i think they are transgendered. and for him making when people's lives i don't no if i could say better but giving them from one day to the next to the next to the next, that was retail.

and it becauseand it because i'm married to a news junkie and you the same things over and over again, people upset about to have obsessive of the national level i'm so much more focused on the local level where you can do face-to-face for at least where you can do issues that matter to the people in your committee. so in newark for instance, the schools are very big issue. you know, in a previous session you're talking about school issues and what happens with rich outside people, many of whom are white deciding what happens in schools whereas on the local level that the people whose children are in schools. and that has changed what happens with schools in newark. >> i think we are also

seeing an increasing amount of retail politics, local organizations networking internationally where they are working with the developer base where they are and working for local issues but seeing the connection with issues on the other side. i think i'm not sure that they're has been a moment in quite some time anyway though we had so much international media international scrutiny on criminal justice. really the last year. mike brown in particular. certainly the globe was watching trip on martin. that was vigilante justice. vigilante and the miscarriage of justice in the courts. there is now police misconduct a murder started

out small and modest many years zeroin and is working throughout the south and 70 people all over and making the connections in chicago all of these started as local affairs. it's wonderful to see how much of a connection is not going on. transcending language barriers, national barriers. >> that's a very useful thing for getting people out of newark on miami or houston and simply having them talking to there counterparts in other countries and in other languages. i mean,, to break down the colonialism of american culture in which so few people no another language.

in newark a lot of the spanish their children speak english. the children continue to speak spanish and the children continue to have a larger mindset. it's. it's a very good question by and large certainly outside of places where american cultures very parochial, very english centered. the ability of people to go and say we're number one and not feel the need to no languages are cultures that disappointing. it's. >> technology has allowed us to get the message out

they're has to be a certain kind of pressure brought to bear on the nation. and it seems fairly resistant and impervious to the outside pressure especially when it comes to the population when it comes to the massive world war ii some people think that political concern that it can't just be known as crimes against humanity. without your holding this country to account. so i mean, you know

hollywood stars. that's find a show solidarity. interest on. eric garner his wife wearing i can't breathe i can't breathe. if it happens elsewhere other people kill. and this is an awful thing. they kill people here. there's not this kind of great rally. >> i agree. we're seeing at the moment a reconfiguration of the united states and its geopolitical place in the world. during the cold war you could as a civil rights tactic national, national opinion. how far you get with that depends on the variables. for example, the way process covers the little rock nine, the nations the 1957. role watching.

albeit very circumscribed express these issues and national forum. like you say sheer hypocrisy the connections between our local efforts. there is sothey're is so important. the measure shifting gear. it's everywhere. >> a lot of have an answer about what throw something out the taken for granted

and then you adding that the united states is no longer in the hegemonic situation in the world. and then on the right side and the importance of the kind of counterpoint. counterpoint. and on the other side the current issue with the confederate flag. and this so far as i understand occur without a soviet union putting the figure's. so wondering. no, i know something. i know something. i also no around 1964 that large numbers of americans not just black americans

still a civil rights have largely. [inaudible] including rabbis and ministers this is wrong. zero, this is wrong. and then with the confederate flag issue a lot of americans think this is wrong. so this situation giving us a way to recast this situation for finding out that maybe public opinion in the fist hits can shift, not change the shift's to make an opening for civil rights.

>> my god. >> that's great. you're absolutely right. i certainly think during the civil -- sorry, the cold war just one factor in all of this. more so perhaps in the 50s that in the 60s' cold war politics, particularly in vietnam the happy-go-lucky endeavor. i don't think it's a parallel to today. i think that's part of the. that there was a way in which civil rights that overwhelmingly even for the politics of the cold war

they cannot be assumed today many have someone that gets engaged in montgomery is is we cannot be meeting here. he wants to separate himself from the radical tradition. the mainstream civil rights organization. the ones that ultimately lbj was to be. i think to have the connections offers a

reconfiguration between not being anyway analysis of the cold war, at least i hope not because it was limited. >> another panelist. i wonder if not a parallel but the interception the aftermath of world war ii the cold war and independence movement and the kind of variety of ways in which they're was a part of transformation and we see and similarly set of force the work that are pushing people think about the transformation from a not in a kind of sort of instrumentalist way's but if it just as the potential for having the potential to make people think.

>> constellation of forces. >> international and domestic. the way that the capitol was moving so rapidly across the globe and everybody is vulnerable increasingly we can read. having a certain kind of mentalism vis-à-vis race's. it strikes me that there are sources that are play that are pushing people to think. >> i have a.on this. there is an awfully tragic way in which they have done that is change the conversation. the past couple years we have become more aware of police killings. there was always an outlet for people who did not want to own up to the fact that it was racial.

the police were given a default credibility. always been kind of framed. if the police officer does something must've done it and i must've been a reason. pick a media site. you always find the people. if you didn't do anything wrong why did he run. that's a reasonably my next? ii was nowhere. but then he comes along and just kills my people for no reason. a church what he said it that? there is know that. that's just pure unadulterated hatred that cannot be matched by any narrative. onenarrative. one of the reasons why you see the verify coming down this flag is an. stuffing guideline. white supremacist are terrorist.

's. >> they don't follow. >> absolutely. >> then we need to bring the phone down. that does nothing. >> tell me what you think. >> it did follow. >> absolutely. but i don't think it necessarily follows. >> of course not. >> there are some other things going on. i'm not sure they have to do is to. i don't know what it is. as. as. [laughter] about this so i don't know the answer. i don't even no that it's a good question, but it is striking to me that the

scenario you lay down the proceed to fight out so 50s the story for a long time. a very local story. and i don't think that it the kind of national mobilization see the civil rights the 60s. there's a long time where they're was a lot of bloodshed. i am my family left the united states. we just couldn't take the bloodshed. there was just so many black being killed. and that didn't lead the anything for the longest time. a lot about that killed in charleston. and for the flag started

coming down. doesn't really's translate that has a fight. disingenuous. but there is a certain -- i think it goes with that. we brought down the flanks and the conversation. the measure it is because we have not talked for example about you knowkilling you know, do we talk about this as a form of terrorism? >> i have not seen much

discussion about it. i'm talking about general. 's. >> my page. >> generally speaking, general i don't think we have that. when abdulaziz, i forget his 1st name: he was cut immediately we're looking for connections. many times this happens we go immediately looking into what websites, has he ever for a school project muslim fundamentalism. i hope some group didn't send them in there. he is wearing a rhodesian flag in his jacket. his 21 years old.

the real throwback. throwback.throwback. the lone gunmen who showed up now as. >> one of your colleagues noticed this photograph. specializes in the image and photographs. those photographs opposed and there are actually fairly sophisticated. it did not take those photographs by himself which reminded me the marvelous piece in my book. and in less than a black? it is actually about wanting

promote the whole question is who is on the other side of camera. and are those even co-conspirators? yes. yes. yes. who took the picture and having those ingredients can >> we are all --, felix all of the patriot act 2.0 healthy. there is no discussion that this is your church. we don't need aa militarized state yeah. privacy. i don't like militarized police. >> they did talk about this. >> not in the mainstream.

but we have had just in the last 36 hours. >> and i guess the latest we will we see the patriot act 2.0. i do want to talk about national elections. we're revving up to presidential elections. we talked about local politics and to what extent is they're anything happening, the possibility has died to those presidents have is that. the question of what is crisis, particular crisis confronting black america. >> the yellow dog democrat. the democrats want a yellow dog. so you know, however the

democrat is. i have been pleased to see clinton moving left. that makes me happy. but for me i am much more interested in local and state politics. my and your blankety-blank is moving to new hampshire hampshire's. new jersey's governor is the strongest over in the nation our state does not move without the governor. where is our government after? he is in iowa with the crazies. i'm talking now language. so for me, you know, you are hearing the talking about the local politics in the state politics. thatthat is where i think we can put a thumb on the lever, give people voting and make it count. i feel like the national

politics i get a billion e-mails from all the democrats about progressives in the world that there are a lot of people working on the national and not just one person. i'm not working on the national right now. am working on new jersey newark essex county. >> you think it's important for the national politics highly important. they help set the conversation in town. and the candidates on both tickets concerns me deeply's coming on not trying to be flippant. and never seen anything like this. this is really wild. said something, somebody like myself things, athings,

a current palm might not be such a bad guy. right? that's saying something. the democratic ticket, and i don't don't have that in hillary clinton she were to win to come to the aid about people in america unless there was some much larger benefit. but i don't see either party producing a candidate that we will do it on the grounds that it is good for america to tend to the problem. i mean,, i'm very concerned. >> what do you do with your concern? >> that's what i do. i go to work. i do my work. that's what i can do. i'm here today. people watching us, this is what we do. going back to what you're saying that the conversation , we are doing something now.

it's awful. >> an account this is something -- the action. >> am glad that the election 15 months now. .. >> you know, even kind of bread and butter issues would automatically translate without directly confronting issues that

apply to us. and there's a way in which the gop since reagan had trickled down economics and i feel like the democrats, you know, they did trickle over. if we just talk about one group black people just kind of melt away without actually just getting up there and saying this is what ray is schism looks like. it is structural and very much implicated with other forms of inequality that may not be specifically african-american, specifically for people of color. but the assumptions that we see democrats often making that, you know, this fiction that, like, we help the middle class, and everyone will work. you know that's trickle over economics, and i'm not sure that's a whole lot better than trickle down. so i'm glad i don't have to vote for -- i mean the primary's coming, but, i mean -- >> way down in the middle of 2016 concern. >> yeah, yeah. >> i mean coming in terms of not

november. i still have a little bit of time to think it through. >> you know, in terms of, you know once again local and state politics these decisions keep getting made on a local level you know, almost month by month because we have so many elections. and i would like to see us be invested in those elections as well as the ones in which as voters we are one of what, 150 million if everybody voted. but, you know, as i'm thinking about the confederate flag and we're talking about voting, i'm thinking that one of the forces that i would say was really important in the change was the fact that there is now a significant black electorate in south carolina. i will bet that that is the

single largest pressure on making black south carolinians visible as south carolinians and as people who are not represented by the confederate flag. the tragedy that a member of the state senate was assassinated, that made a difference as well. but when we talk about, you know the sort of tsunami of politics, black voting, i think, has made maybe a revolution is too strong a word for it, but it's made all the difference in the world. >> this is in some way related but one of the things that has been discussed with respect to some of -- in florida in particular -- is the kind of growing puerto rican population in florida, multiracial and that being significant for the next

presidential election. but it also, i think opens the door for us to have some discussion about immigration and the politics of race with respect to that. i mean, we saw some in terms of the kind of digital activism realm, there was significant -- there has been significant attention, for example to what's happening to haitians and the dominican republic in part. so we see a growth in the set of concerns about race internationally, but also, i think, domestically. the way that we talk about immigration has historically been in the united states -- not historically, the last decade or two has focused on latinos but we also have black immigrant populations. we have urban centers that are black, multiethnic. to what extent are those kinds that set of issues you think

sort of things that should be primary or are with respect to our talking about how race functions currently in the united states today. >> i think just a background comment is i've always been, i think a little bit skeptical about the way race and immigration can come together in a way that can push the issue of race in america forward. but i think one of the things -- the only comment i'll make is this is not an area i study intensely, but a lot of what happens in america today even though we're more than 100 years past, the idea of the one-drop rule is still very powerful and the way in which even -- for example, i'm actually, i'm a puerto rican man right? people just assume that i'm black. i self-identify as racially black, ethnicically puerto rican, but it wouldn't make a difference to a police officer.

i can't say wait, stop, i'm puerto rican. [laughter] you got the wrong guy right? [laughter] that wouldn't make a difference, right? and so the only thing i'll say the historical backdrop against which it occurs is people are separated psychologically by those of power and how it plays out. that's all i'll say, throw that comment out there. >> i think the immigration of large numbers of well-educated people from africa and to a certain extent from the caribbean is going to make a big difference in the ethnic -- i mean already makes a difference in certain places like my new jersey your new jersey that immigrants are less burdened by the tragic side of african-american history. and i think more able to take advantage of the tremendous

opportunities of american culture. i mean, this has been true of immigrants no matter where they come from. they tend to say well, here's something i can do, and i'm not going to deal with all this other stuff. let me just go do what i need to do. so there's an advantage in energy terms for immigrants no matter where they come from. >> although the second generation -- >> yeah. they're just americans. [laughter] but in terms of, i mean, we see this at princeton, for instance, that so many of the black students are east themselves immigrants -- either themselves immigrants or the children of immigrants. and very often the parents the immigrants, are very well educated which has been the key to the advantages of asian immigrants, that the immigrant generation is heavily well educated. so black ethnicity is much more

complicated already than it was a generation ago. and it's going to continue being complicated. complicated in the sense of many people coming from various or places complicated because we now have more voluntary immigrants from the african continent than we had involuntary immigrants in the slave trade era. that's a big difference. and just the sense of possibility, the sense of freedom that immigrants and their children bring. so i wouldn't be surprised if in the next census or the one after that we have an ethnicity within black as well in the way that we don't anymore for black or white. a hundred years ago there were ethnicities within white. you had to say where you were born and where your parents were born and how many people were immigrants. that went away is why people

want -- they thought -- all homogenized. i think this will change with the tide of african-descended immigrants. it's a very interesting topic. [inaudible conversations] >> do you have any thoughts? >> well, i think the way immigration is discussed i guess, in, you know, capital p politics which is to say on the lek coral level -- electoral level, there don't seem to be that many new ideas coming from there. and i think the challenge for us is to, you know, to make -- to see the similarities, to make the linkages, the political connections as well. there are, you know, millions of people, you know, who live in varying states of precarety vis-a-vis, you know, this kind of national, you know, this fiction of citizenship right?

citizenship itself is very, you know, very gated. it's a nation of equals but some more equal than others some have more citizenship than others, and some have none at all. and i think that's where there's this larger burden that we have to think about that is shared across so many other groups. in california or nor los angeles anyway half of the incidents of police murder and brutality are borne by that city's latino population. clearly, that's not much different from what we see in you know, south carolina, mississippi, alabama right? that's clearly a linkage right there. i think also in terms of going back to the title of our comments about the crisis for democracy, you know, how do we remake a democracy or at least try to fine tune this thing? there is where i think we have to think expansively. i might sound like a kind of old-fashioned, you know, kind of

liberal on this, but expanding the franchise is one of those things. >> you don't have to apologize for that. >> i feel like i do, yeah. i don't know. >> no. >> voting isn't everything but voting is a lot. >> voting is a lot. >> yeah. you know, and i think -- we're at a time now where voter registration relative to the population, i think we might be at all-time lows. >> yeah. >> the title of this panel is in a moment of crisis it's suppressed voter. i'm not just talking about general apathy, which is still there. i'm not sure, we talk about ap thit, i'm not sure it's as high of people who can't vote because of criminal record -- >> [inaudible] >> obstacles, police officers saying oh, if you vote and you have child support we're going to make it the last ballot you cast in a while. >> voter id laws,. >> all that. >> i registered people to vote at a supermarket in newark, and many people said already registered, and we reminded them

about the next election. some people said i don't vote, you know, like it was a principled situation, and some people said, well i'm still on parole, i can't vote. so all those things happen. >> yeah. and it's kind of i don't want to, you know get on a soap box but it's ludicrous that people who are clearly part of our polity would not have a stay say say -- say in it. i think that's really one of the places, because the entire place, the entire gulag of prisons can just be written off in anybody's political calculus. >> yeah. >> because there's, you know there's no votes to be gained there at all. we've got to wait for, you know, a well-intentioned president with a bucket list to get him inside of one of these places. >> okay, sam. see you at shop-rite. [laughter] >> i'm not registered in the

state of new jersey, but that doesn't disqualify me from registering people, does snit. >> i want to step back a second from voting, but i think it's still relevant. you raised this point, sam about varying levels of precarety that people confront, and it strikes me that one of the ways when we talk about undocumented immigration we talk about people being without papers but, of course, there are all kinds of people without papers, people who cannot access birth certificates or social security cards or various ways in which people -- and, of course these folks who are incarcerated various kinds of exclusions from the full exercise of participation of membership. and yet given that why is it so difficult then to forge alliances across these other kinds of perceived differences whether it's national identity or ethnicity or, i mean, what, what's hampering -- >> i can tell you one thing and here i come right back to

newark, that the relationship between jobs and politics is like this. patronage, jobs. so it's a question of jostling over turf, who's in charge and who is going to allocate the jobs. it's a real thing. >> yeah. another thing, i mean, nell's point earlier about what happens when immigrants come hering with folks are -- where folks are already educated previously, etc., you know there's no strategy. i don't mean this as some kind of shadowy conspiratorial way. but i'll just give you an example. i live in new haven connecticut. i live in a predominantly latino neighborhood very close to black neighborhoods, and i was talking about in the other day. if you go through latino neighborhoods, something happened. like the folks there, at hot of folks in the neighborhood, they're poorer but their

businesses they're independently-owned businesses, some people own homes rent homes, but then you go to the black nibd, and the city is just completely, it just seems as if this is a different place right? as you move through these areas then you go to east rockford where it's mostly white, and that's a whole other story. i think part of the issue about forging alliances if you think you're doing just a little bit better, then the other group is going to hold you back down either because of the stigma attached to them or because they don't have the connections. again, this is not my expertise but i just say this common sensically that's at least one obstacle to getting alliances when people think actually you're going to be a bit of deadweight because you don't have right the pulls to get people to look at you, people don't respect your community as much. that's one thing that i think is a problem. >> okay. i'm sorry. hold that thought.

we have a former mayor dickers david dinkins coming out. [applause] >> hi. [applause] >> good afternoon. >> good afternoon. >> i didn't know i was going to have this privilege but i'm delighted to have it. i'm supposed to be outside signing books -- [laughter]

and then they offered me an opportunity to come in and greet you folks and i, of course, seized upon it. [laughter] they told me we had some real e intellectuals here. [laughter] i'm not to be confused with them. so i if you, if the spirit moves you i hope you'll stop by barnes & noble's outside and pick up a book. the purpose of writing a book and trying to promote it in the first instance is not to make money, but rather to talk about a lot of wonderful people who did great and good things when we were privileged to serve this city. so that which we did right, they get the credit. where things were not done as

well as they should have been i'll take the blame. but i hope you'll stop out and take a look at it if you have not already. i've got someone back here telling me that, dave, you know you've got to go now. [laughter] but i thought that if if you or they had a question or two, i might try to be responsive. yes, ma'am. >> mayor dinkins we've just been asking what it is that keeps different parts of a community separate, like latino neighborhood and the african-american neighborhood and the african neighborhood and the white neighborhood. what keeps them from working together? >> well, one obviously they ought not be separate. indeed, the title of book that we've done is "a mayor's life

governing new york's gorgeous mosaic." i went to school in harlem for a little while a very, very long time ago, and we were taught that new york city's a melting pot. but it's not a melting pot. i say it's a gorgeous mosaic. they speak more than a hundred languages in queens, for instance. and is we need to not permit folks to divide us. we need really, to come together because our interests are the same. and i don't know why it is the way it is. people almost every year around dr. king's birthday the question is put has dr. king's dream been realized and, of course, the

response is in the negative, no, it hasn't. but things are better. not what they ought to be but thank god they're not what they used to be. >> i follow that up really quick? >> yes ma'am. >> you created a successful multiracial, cross-class coalition. how, how did you go about that? >> well i had, i had some really good people. some of you here know and know of bill lynch, for instance. died much too early at 72. it's still difficult for me to talk about him. but he was a large part of the reason that we were able to put

together the group we had. there were some folks that worked with us that i had never not only didn't know, had never heard of. basil paterson -- i assume you know these names. but basil said to me, you know you're going to need a counsel. and i said yeah basil i know, but who? he said, i've got just the guy george daniels. i said, who's he? he was a judge. i said he'll never give that up. and he said oh, ask him. [laughter] and he is one of the smartest, nicest guys you ever want to meet. he's now a federal judge. before i left i appointed him back to the criminal court bench. then he got elected to the supreme court and then clinton made him a federal judge.

we call him the heavy judge because there was a time in harlem where we were making plans for a community center, and the chairman was james l. watson who was a federal judge. and he was a chairman of the group. one saturday afternoon the brothers and sisters were getting anxious. said man come on let's go. i gotta go. he said, no, man, we gotta wait for the judge. so in the door walked herb evans who was a state supreme court judge. so i said there's the judge there. he said, no, man, i mean the heavy judge. [laughter] so henceforth, federal judges are known as heavy judge. but i had a lot of good people. basil was the chairman of our

judiciary committee. this is a nonpaid position, you've got to understand. and he and his committee if i had two appointments, they'd bring me maybe three or four people. it didn't matter which ones i picked, because they were all that good. and so we had more women, more gays, more people of color than ever before. but it was because of basil. he did it. he too, is gone much much too early. so it is no exaggeration to say that we did get some good things done. some things we didn't do as well as we might have, and i'll accept the blame for that. but we did get a lot of good

things done. and every now and then somebody remembers 'em. [laughter] not too often but once many a while. once in a while. but it's because of these folks. i mean, they were outstand ising -- outstanding. many of them are now in government, some of them working for de blasio, some not. there was one guy carl wisebroad, who at the very last minute in '93 when i'm about to lock the city hall door and hand rudy the key i mean it's that late, and carl came rushing into city hall with a memorandum of understanding to be to signed by the deputy mayor for finance and economic development. the last minute. now, what would most of us have been doing that late in the game? you'd be out circulating your

resumés trying to get a damn job. [laughter] he was still working on the one he had. and the agreement that he brought in was for the disney deal that started the cleanup of times square. so he did that. we had a lot of women and men oh god, they were good. they were really good. and so -- [applause] that's what i and so that's the reason for the book. honest to god it really is. and then i won't go chapter by chapter through the book, i promise you that. but i think you'll find it interesting reading. it's imperfect, of course. errors made, things that we could have said differently and

i wish i had. for instance, a report so-called, on crown heights. and governor mario cuomo said to me, you know i sort of watered it down, like it was bad but it wasn't that bad because we sort of -- in the book i should not have said this. but i told the governor if you see me and a bear in a fight you help the bear. [laughter] now, that was, that was inpolitic, it was not gracious to make that kind of comment, but it's there in writing. [laughter] so anyway, i hope you'll read it, and i thank you all for giving me this opportunity.

[applause] >> steve -- thank you. so thank you for being here. wonderful to have you join us. and i think given the conversation that we were having which you were not aware of, there's a question that we could add and extend which is we've seen debates about racial representation in executive positions in our cities as well as in our police departments. and given your tenure at a time of tremendous racial turmoil and upheaval around policing and racial violence and the use of hawkins comes to mind, patrick lynch was obviously, in the news in the wake of eric garner's death and it just seems to me that you are one of few people who could comment on

how we are to think about what's happened in baltimore the change in leadership the response to the death of freddie gray the recent changes here in the city in response to the one-year anniversary of eric garner. so i just felt like this was a great moment to capitalize on your experience there. thank you. >> well i thank you. i am the chairman of the -- [inaudible] foundation. we were i'm sure everybody here recalls that. we were so outraged by that, that charlie rangel al sharpton, a handful of others, we decided to get arrested at police plaza. and so the police were very, very nice. they said, well, mayor, we can take you out of the back. i said man, you don't understand, this is the point! [laughter] to go out the front.

so folks can see. [applause] and so mrs. diallo is an amazing, gracious woman and our foundation continues. but there have been too many instances like that. you will recall that 41 rounds fired, 19 of 'em hit him. he had no weapon, was not threatening anybody. i mean damn. [laughter] and there are equally outrageous circumstances gray in the back of that damn -- oh. so we continue to be outraged by these things. the one thing that i know is absolutely necessary is what we refer to as community policing. the police need community and the community needs the police.

most of the people who commit crimes are apprehended in the final analysis because of cooperation with the community. the folks living in the community don't want people among them committing crimes where all too often they are the victims. and so we're very much mindful of that. and i think that among the things we need is what i call community policing. and more our young people -- for our young people, education is absolutely essential. we need -- we owe, old folks like me -- just the other day july 10th i turned 88, so i am old. [applause]

but we, we owe you young people the ability the capacity to achieve your potential. we owe you that. each generation should be better than the one before. and my bride and i we're forchew nate, we have -- fortunate, we have a little boy and little girl. little boy's 61 -- [laughter] and they -- and terrific. we had a couple of grandchildren, and i mean, god has blessed us. it makes a difference. but we, we owe -- and not just our own children, but because i maintain i've got lots of kids. i have lots of young people with whom i worked, and i feel that way about 'em.

so if, one, we accept that it is our responsibility, we have an obligation to see to it that our young people get appropriately educated and are not ill-treated by police or anybody else. [applause] i better go sign these books. thanks a lot. [applause] >> what a gift that was. i think we are actually at the time where we want to open the floor for questions. >> hello. i am your essex county sister, dr. painter, and i am also involved on the local level i'm on the local school board. and one of the things that i want to ask you all as a panel,

especially the conversation between local versus national versus state, i mean, fundamentally i think they all tie together. you can't win on the local level when the state is doing things that are ultimately undoing what you're trying to do if you look at educational funding in new jersey you see it's quite the mess. and national plays in as well. and when you look at your point on the lack of engagement around politics and voting at an all-time low i started voting local in 2005 when we moved to bloomington, indiana, and even just trying to find out who these people were on the ballot was very difficult even in the internet age. so but you're right in that the impact of local is immediate. so your involvement on a local level can have an immediate impact and that is one of the

best ways to hook people into start engaging. but how do we battle against what has happened with social media and the attention span of a gnat that we are generating in the new generations to allow folks to care enough and engage enough and plug in enough to actually commit to making that difference on a local level and grow that into state, into national? how do we do that? >> well again speaking about essex county and newark and new jersey for the local, what i see in newark is that when people are -- well, around the schools, for instance, it's when parents see their kids' school closing. so it's not in the abstract. it's here is an issue that affects me, and then here's how i can do something about it. but you point out a real, i mean, my husband and i have

ph.d.s. we have so much trouble finding out who we are voting for. and part of that is the loss of the star ledger which is, i mean, we still read the newspaper every day, but what's in the newspaper is less and less and less. so, you know, if i were a full-time political person, i would do two things. i would create a way for people to know who's running for what and, of course, i would put my spin on it. this is what they stand for. and the other is here's some very clear guidelines for voting. so when i was out there at the shop-rite, i was with people in the baptist church that i go to, bethany baptist church. and they have just a little foldover, you know, on an 8.5x10

of here's who can vote. people don't know that. [inaudible conversations] >> kind of related to what the other lady just said i've been in the field of mental health for about 40 years. and so i certainly witness people approach crises, and crises can either mobilize them for action, or it can paralyze them. those that are able to mobilize for action are usually held to tolerate some level of uncertainty. and i think what often happens with our community is that we're not approaching or perceiving the experience that we're in, the suppression that we're in as a chronic problem.

it's not a sprint that we're in this is a long distance run. >> right. >> and when i think of what we're many and how we need -- what we're in and how we need to approach these next steps i think of a former harlemite, an elder, professor john henry clark who always spoke about the chronic but the longstanding martha our people have taken on our journey towards liberation. and i don't forget the phrase that he always used that our approach should be bury the man and continue the plan. [laughter] that our efforts should not be centered around a personality, but the fact that there's indigenous leaders within every

community, and where we stand, that's where we can begin. and that's why i liked what you were saying, professor painter, about doing your work. what i -- my question to the panel is that i think people often confuse political power with partisanship which doesn't have to be the same thing. what i'd like to know is what kind of institutions do you think we need to be developing in our communities that could help us become connected and mobilized around personal issues that are of interest to us and we can be working on and then be poised to take advantage at a time when something comes to the fore that we need to take action on as opposed to just coming together around crisis and crisis and crisis, that we would already be together as an

organization. that's where i think that we're lacking. we're always starting from square one as opposed to already being poised to take advantage of opportunities. crises. [applause] >> what i've seen happening -- [applause] is that people start, you could call it a crisis but start with an issue that affects them personally. and then what often happens is that people will mobilize, say newark-run schools then it falls apart because people are not experienced in using their power politically. i'm not going to speak to the issue of psychology here. because i think that's a different, that's a therapeutic side that politics or political mobilization will not address.

but in newark, in essex -- no in rutgers newark, a longtime activist julius williams, run ares a group runs -- runs a group, you know, it's an ongoing seminar for local people who are mobilized. and he helps them find those skills of translating your agitation into moving the leaders of power. so you need somebody who has the experience and the knowledge who's willing to make that an ongoing seminar. >> i agree. >> if i could say something on this point. it's become, it's become vogue lately especially in the wake of black lives matter to say we don't need the charismatic leader anymore, this is the people's movement. i want to put in a plug for the charismatic leader and i'll tell you why. one thing that's important being

politically active are resources. one of the most valuable resources is time. people doarnghts i mean, people don't have time. people have jobs to get to if they can -- jobs they're looking for. i mean, jobs that will let them have the time off. and one of the things that personalities or charismatic leaders help do is are resource people and/or making a sacrifice. but they help keep other people in the game precisely because to be in the political game requires a certain kind of long-term commitment that most people, they would surely like to make it, but many of them simply can't can, right? there has to be a conduit of somebody who is always on the ground, always let them know what's going on and what can be done at that moment because something's happening somewhere else right? i just wanted to say that because i think i think things could be fashionable. i think the fashionable thing now is to say we don't need, right, we don't need that one leader anymore. actually think leaders that people can rally around they're

not simply kind of inspirational, they actually serve a very practical function for a community that don't have the privileges to be consistently politically active and informed. but that's just -- >> but we should be careful not to become dependent. >> oh, sure. that's absolutely right. >> and they also become very easy targets to be knocked off and then the movement dissolves. so i think there's a plus on either side. >> that's absolutely right. i think that's right. >> thank you. >> i wanted also to add i like that point about leadership. the historian theorist and organizer barbara ransby has a piece out, i think it's called the myth of the leaderless movement where she talks about the importance of leadership but also talks about structure as well, you know, so in case a leader will not be there, you have a structure, and you have the organizational capacity to keep moving on. and fortunately, some of those -- we're creating vibrant

new organizations now. but unfortunately some of those already exist to take some of that capacity as well. so i was also thinking about our previous immigration question. if you look at, like, the writings of christina greer or dorian warren, both political scientists who talk about immigration and labor unions, for example, clearly these are places where there are ethnic divisions between, you know, not just black versus nonblack, but also within black communities. but also a lot of ground on which -- a lot of common ground. and, i mean, let's be clear. like the labor movement right now is poised to do, to be an agent of change. it is involved in ways that it hasn't -- involved in, you know many progressive issues in ways that it hasn't since, you know, maybe the '80s really. so i encourage everyone to keep an eye on what happens there as well. there's ways in which we kind of assume that the crisis moment is

where we should be looking but some of these organizations are right here. many progress arive unions have been around for a long time as well. >> just a follow-up to the observations by the woman who commented about needing ongoing organizational activities. so the example i wanted to remind people of, which i know a number of you know is the work of the women's political caucus in montgomery, alabama, which created itself and worked on discrimination and segregation on the buses. and so when there was the rosa parks arrest, just as you suggested, there was an opportunity to activate a whole network of people in the city of montgomery which led to the montgomery bus boycott and was successful. so that's a comment that's really just saying wonderful idea, and it's something that should come out of the black lives matter, the idea of having a network of people, the examples that professor painter gave of the gentleman who's

organizing and just giving -- >> julius williams. >> julius williams, just giving people a place to come to learn about organizing. so there's that. then the issue of the charismatic leader, that's a very complicated issue. as you know, al baker was always critical of the charismatic leader, the role of martin luther king and how his role both as the leader of sclc but also as a black minister was problematic for the black community. be so ella baker, of course s a charismatic leader herself. she was an organizational leader without the public presence that she's come to take on as academics have begun to write histories of her life. that's all. >> i'll just, you know, kind of piggyback on that. there's ways in which we don't recognize women leaders as having charisma. like charisma -- and this isn't just about this moment.

i think this is probably in a western civilization kind of, you know deeply embedded in our culture that we think of charisma as often being a masculine trait. and so we really need to rethink what it is, you know to -- what is leadership and particularly what is charismatic leadership. so for someone like ella baker and barbara ransby who has written a biography of baker you know, she knows that leadership is important, but it's very tricky, right? yeah. >> and certainly someone like fannie lou hamer was a charismatic leader, right? i actually have a question but it's related to the thread of the conversation we're having which is -- and it's related to some of what i've been writing on recently is that there's, we both have a history of organizations that did varying kinds of advocacy work or bringing political pressure, but we also, historically african-americans had a rich associational life that did a lot of self-activity as well or

work internal to community. so i'm just thinking of, for example, the national association of teachers in colored schools that had where every state would have an organization noise there being a national -- in addition to there being a national organization. and they worked on issues knowing best practices educationally, knowing, thinking about how we're going to collect day, how to -- data, how to -- as well as advocating for equalization of resources so that the joining of organizations as part of a kind of cultural practice seems to have waned generally. >> no. >> you don't think so? >> >> no. >> okay. [laughter] but i will say this but the -- well, but i guess the other part of the question for me is, you know, to what extent also is it significant vis-a-vis the question of developing the kind of trust and interdependence that is necessary for waging some of these battles because the point that was raised by, i

guess, the person we spoke to about the vulnerability or the dangers of charisma also as a point about trust right and being able to depend on each other in the context of movement. could you -- >> yeah. one of the things i discovered when i did "creating black americans" is a whole raft of new -- usually they're called black caucuses since the '80s within desegregated organizations. like, there's a black caucus of airline pilots and a black caucus of law professors and a black caucus of history professors and a black caucus of philosophy professors and -- >> membership in that one. [laughter] >> so there's, you know, as the need arises, people do come together.

so i don't think you should despair about organizing around interest groups. around racial interest groups. because, you know as long as we're in organizations in which we feel that people aren't getting our issues, two philosophers will come together -- [laughter] and agitate, you know, somehow to put those issues on the table. so all is not lost. all is not lost. the other thing about julius williams who i think is the kind of person -- i mean, he's a special person. he's been active in newark for 30 years, so he, you know, really deep roots and a lot of knowledge. he's a lawyer. but probably there's somebody like that in places that have universities. i mean, this is not somebody who is untutored. he knows how -- but he knows

thousand get things done. and it -- how to get things done. and it turns out there's sort of a life cycle of outrage. you know organizations or groups of people that come together around a crisis or an outrage, and they work together for a while and then somebody gets jealous and then there's back biting, and then it all falls apart. and it turns out you can foresee this, warn people and give them some ways of working around that and getting past that and continuing to work together on the same issue or perhaps on new issues that come up. >> hi. this is a fascinating conversation, thank you so much. i was thinking, can you guys hear me? >> yes. >> i was thinking about we're publishing in the james baldwin review the inaugural issue coming out later this year, an interview that was never before seen in 1969 in istanbul. it's 19 pages long in manuscript

form. you guys are going to be blown away. in that interview i baldwin talks about the paucity of the language of civil rights which is decide cannedly an american term right? civil rights is a decidedly american term and to contemplate what he says, that's really prosockty be for -- prosock provocative to me is and you guys. there's always a white movement to maintain a certain kind of power, and black folks organize to check that. what do you think of that, this idea that somehow folks aren't organizing as, like, a black thing, but instead responding directly to white power regrouping and reorganizing to shut us down. >> so my own guess of what i know about baldwin's thought is he probably -- i wouldn't attribute to him the idea that

there is an organization. he had various ways of indicting people in groups. and i think one of the things he seemed to be trying to say in that kind of a statement is something like the following: movements are the kind of things that people proactively take on to create something new. and what black folks are doing they're not trying to create something new they're just trying to get something they should have had in the fist place. [applause] how can that be a movement? the movement was to bring people here and keep them down. that's how i read that kind of a thing. >> [inaudible] >> yeah. >> well, not knowing this and not being a scholar of ballwomen, i think -- baldwin i think i will let you have the word. >> i would just add, i mean i think there's also increasingly we're hearing that people who were involved in the movement resisting the term "civil rights

movement" and talking about how they've talked about it as the freedom movement. and there's a way in which the language of the civil rights movement really contains the political vision so that it then is described as the movement for the recognition of a set of political rights that ends, right, we had the triumphant ending with the passage of the voting rights act and ignores watts less than two weeks later. you know, and ignores the continued movement around issues with respect to economic inequality and police brutality and all those sorts of other things. so i do think -- jobs. we have to engage in a collective of the way the language limits us, and the t it sounds like this is an important entryway into doing that. any oh questions in -- other questions? panelists, you all have any questions for each other? [inaudible conversations] >> actually, i'm not making any art these days.

i'm writing a memoir. it's called "old in art school." [laughter] because i was old in art school. the first thing people asked me at mason gross was how old are you? and i said -- >> [inaudible] >> -- 64. [laughter] >> what are you working on? >> what am i working on? >> yes. >> i'm working on a book on the history of race and drug addiction politics from the '50s through the '90s. a long time ago -- well, it's a relative term, there was what was called the crisis in heroin addiction, and under that rubric we expanded police forces we passed the rock feller drug laws -- rockefeller drug laws, we circulated all kinds of very interesting, sometimes strange b definitions of addiction and recovery and rehabilitation. and i'm looking forward to finishing it. my summer is not quite done, so

i still have some writing time. >> actually right now i'm working on an intellectual history of black lives matter, as a matter of fact, trying to -- there's something that, there's something that people are trying to put forward that slogan that actually has a deep history that most of us in this room know about but white america, you'd be surprised at the level, i mean technically not in a derogatory sense of ignorance, just not knowing when people say black lives matter the long tradition of black thought, american thought that that slogan is really a part of. so i'm putting together a project now to try to give more heft to the idea and offer it to a wider readership. by doing things, by doing the work my very, very, very, very, very very small part is actually to try and provide an educational function for the american polity because that's something that at least somebody like myself can do. >> brilliant.

>> i -- i'm just going to say really quickly i just turn inside a manuscript although it's not nearly done -- [applause] that is a history of the song lift every voice and sing known as the black national anthem which is part of the reason i'm somewhat despairing, because it just -- going through the history of the song shows how rich and robust all these forms of black associational life were and the conditions under which black people joined to sing the song were always really kind of rich both politically and intellectually and socially. so that's, that's where i am. >> [inaudible] >> hi. >> hi. so we've come to that moment where we prepare for the next. but before we prepare for the next, i want to thank our panelists for -- [applause]

for wonderful and engaging conversations and wonderful imaginings no? just wonderful possibilities. i'd like to thank our sponsor, certainly, the house of schomburg, arturo schomburg who, at one point, decided that the root is always stronger than branch. and we thank him for that. our sponsors, columbia university, of course, c-span, city sightseeing, barnes & nobles wnyc, wkcr. i'd like to finish by reading a quick letter. dear mr. rodriguez congratulations to the harlem book fair on 17 years as the largest african-american book fair and the nation's flagship black literary event. i am thrilled to be able to sponsor hbf's initiative give a book in your name and provide books to children in harlem community where i was raised and

educated. the best gift you can give to a child is a book. reading not only builds their vocabulary, improves their listening skills, it develops and stimulates their mind and helps them discover new things. as a child my mother encouraged us to read every day. she kept our book shelves filled with books. if i read them all she had me read them again. books opened my mind to many possibilities and allowed me to dream and later the make those dreams a reality. if i did not know how to read, i would not be where i am today. i would not have done well in school, would not have known to read, to understand, to follow directions, to fill out job applications, to be able to start and run a successful business or even sign contracts. i would have been limited in what i can accomplish. it is for this reason i chose to get involved with the book fair. i want the children of our community to know that we as a community care about them and want the best for them.

i want them to understand if i can accomplish my dreams, so can they. i want them to understand they can succeed academically, be their own boss, have dreams. it is up to us as parents and communities to insure our children have the proper tools needed to succeed in life. with this imagination and, of course, there it goes, we're going to try to, again -- there we are. with big imagination comes big dreams and big ideas. let's work together as a community to provide our future leaders with a great foundation and insure all have success and a great start with a book. god bless sean "diddy" combs. [applause] all that to say that the intention of the book fair is

not only to acknowledge ourselves, but also to acknowledge and to share our contribution to american global culture. it continues. and it continues from not only the artistic but from the intellectual engagement. the book fair will continue to marry books and culture in a very active way. combs enterprise support of that idea is reflective in what we see today and what we see out on the street today. it was amazing. for those of you who are in the televised audience what went on outside today was absolutely captivating. it is the best of who we are. so thank you once again. our next event the harlem book fair midwest regional in kansas city, is a partnership with the naacp and el centro.

we're excited about that. please, i'll send you all a hold the date, 7/16/16. we'll see you next year. thank you. [applause] buy books outside at the barnes & noble's and the schomburg gift shop. not just buy books, buy their books. these are great conversations. thank you so much. [applause] ..