have not heard about them. to give you not just another story about them having to go through the back door in a white hotel, but the story of them writing a song or painting a painting or studying their lines. in my book there's a picture of dorothy -- [inaudible] taking a dance class. young people today love beyonce and talk about her work ethic a lot, and i always like to bring that up in that context for something you can understand. the thing you admire beyonce for or janet jackson always seen rehearsing, that's not new. they're from a long tradition of artists who were hard workers and loved art of every type. lenalena hornewas a big reader. >> that's right. i'm so glad you said that, because i hear a lot of especially undergrads who say to me all i'm learning and whether it's an ethnic studies class or

african-american history is how bad it is. so the history piece is one thing, but also even in this moment. that's how i started off right? in this moment it's all a about how we are diagnose, right? slow death -- dying right? at what point do i have any agency to do anything -- >> you know, there's a distinction in the world between optimists and pessimists. turns out that optimists get things done. optimists succeed. it turns out that pessimists are right about the world. >> right. [laughter] >> right right right right. >> and i just want to, i want to introduce a term. this is not an academic term, but it's a term that i got from some of the black women that i worked with in detroit who were around 16 years old. and they said there's a difference between a struggle, the struggle and struggley with an ly, and they say a struggle

is what we go through as human beings on this planet. the struggle they define as specific to the african-american experience in this country. and they said but struggley is when -- and they named this through what they saw happening to their grandmothers and their aunties, struggling is when you are constantly battling and fighting with no prospects of anything getting better, with no prospect of joy. and no one, no human being should live in that space. and so they, their counteraction to that or the way they thought about this had a lot to do with how they carried themselves, their ability to be creative not just in fashion, but to write poetry, to dance in ways that were in defiance of this idea of being struggley. we understand that there is a history for all of us, right, of working through and coming through. they even understood the history particular toy(e

>> in the midst of the trauma, the narrative that you have can be all about the trauma for a variety of reasons. but that's not necessarily the narrative that i have about black people.

and it's not one that i teach my students. like, you need to understand the conditions that were pressing down at any moment. like again you can't just be like and they were play -- i had somebody say somewhere that we need to get beyond this trauma/pleasure thing, because even on -- during the middle passage, black women were having orgasms. i'm like, now you've gone far right? [laughter] now you've gone far with your dichotomy. yes, they may have been, but you know, it wasn't the pleasure cruise. [laughter] so we can talk about how we're not all just damaged. black women, there's stuff to talk about, you know? >> dr. painter, i think in your book am i correct in that you were saying we see the slave initially in upstate new york and that her first language was dutch. >> yes. >> not english. and i think when people bring out that trope of sojourner truth, they hear that southern

accent. [laughter] so whether she says -- [inaudible conversations] >> but that's the point i'm making. the point i'm making is that people not only trot that out as saying that, but also they hear it in that southern black voice and that had nothing to do with -- when i read that in your book -- >> people are carrying on about sojourner truth without even knowing anything about her. [inaudible conversations] >> can you please -- i would love -- [inaudible conversations] >> could you talk about just that, where you're going with this, but also i would love if you could talk about the moment of the photographs -- >> yes. >> and the importance of -- >> yes yes. i want to say three things. let me try to remember the three things. the first thing is so sojourner truth didn't say ain't i a woman, any of that, the people who put that in her mouth don't even take step one to find out

about her. i wrote a scholarly book on sojourner truth. there were two others that came out, and there's one since then, and we all say look she didn't say that. she said things that meant that that working class women need their rights. women need their rights and women work hard. she said that she didn't say ain't, aren't, etc. okay, that's the first thing. let's just career -- clear that up. i don't want any of you -- [laughter] okay. the second thing you've taken black americans and kind of shifted it over a little bit to playfulness. playfulness is good for fashion, maybe, but my book is called "creating black americans: african-american history and its meaning, 1619-present."

and the themes are creation and trauma. so each chapter starts with a full-page image from black fine art. so if you can get a hard copy, you have a coffee table book with. if you can only get the soft copy, you have a textbook. [laughter] but they all they both have a lot of black fine art in it because artists can deal with the past in a way that scholars can't. and as we know, just look at me, i'm getting all worked up. [laughter] >> i was excited to read your book that's why i wanted to ask you -- [inaudible] >> yeah, yeah. so we, we need to keep the creation in mind. for me, it was fine art. but it can be entertainment, it can be a lot of other things.

and what was the third thing i wanted to -- >> [inaudible] >> no, i'm not going to talk about -- no, no. that's for you, that's for you. [laughter] you asked about the photographs. the way i really started drifting toward the way that i ended up going to art school was through working on sojourner truth's photographs. sojourner truth did not read and write, but she had her pictures taken. and i started because i was really fascinated by you know that photograph of sojourner truth that you see a lot where she's sitting like this? you know what i'm talking about? she's very prim, right? you know that photo? i mean, there are several of them but, you know, she's never, she's never doing any of that. [laughter] she's sitting very nicely. and then before i knew anything there was this verbal so journaller truth who was -- sojourner truth who was ripping open her bodice and ain't i a

woman and all that sort of thing which was a very fierce kind of person. so in order to find out what was going on here, i started -- it ended up a book. but the photographs were sojourner truth's controlled self-fashioning. and she showed herself as a respectable, well dressed matron. she didn't show herself as an angry black woman or a freedom fighter. she was a person of the mid 19th century, and i'm going to stop with this last bit saying that part of our self-fashioning all of our self-fashioning most of our self-fashioning is as individuals. and i think we should be proud of ourselves as individuals. this is very hard to do in our society which only wants to make

us units of race or units of sex or units of sexuality. but each of us is an individual with a particular past a particular family, particular tastes particular body. and we do with it and we should own doing it as ourselves. [applause] >> i wanted to add -- >> one of the, i love this sojourner truth book. it was revelatory to me. and one of the things that i was most revelatory was not that she wasn't busy opening her breasts in front of people and talking about ain't i a woman -- [laughter] that never happened either the whole ripping of the breast in the middle of a meeting. also fiction. but the thing that i like the most is for a while she was part of this utopian community that

had all this, like, free love going on -- interracial. >> it was interracial but it was not free love. >> okay, so i made that part up. [laughter] but i like -- [inaudible conversations] >> so that she was a part of creating this utopian kind of idyllic community. and, again it's not how sojourner truth has been given to us -- >> and this is why my book is called "sojourner truth: a life, a symbol." two different things. >> yeah. >> speaking of individuality and this is a very selfish question because i admire all of your work so much and have read and used it in so many different ways. and i think it would be helpful hopefully not just for me, but if you could talk about the individual journey that brought you to the work. not just wanting to uncover the trauma but the joy and the creation in the collective community creation. i think it would be helpful if you could speak to how you see

your research, your writing as part of these creative, self-making projects and especially now with how you shifted -- or maybe it wasn't a shift -- from a historian to creating the archives, to creating with challenge and digital art. i think your individual stories of creation and fashioning are really important for all of us to understand and hear. >> go ahead. >> nichelle, do you want to start in. in -- start? >> well, like i said earlier it came from a desire to share a part of history that i didn't think people were aware of enough people didn't know. i love history different books from, you know, different areas. but i find a lot of people avoid it because it is traumatic and it can be exhausting be all you're hearing is terrible things. so i found a lot of -- as a writer i admire other artists in different disciplines so i

always an interest in singers and actresses and models and how they came to their art. because a lot of them are different, very individual people and often not -- just like we were just talking about sojourner truth -- their journey is not the stereotypical journey that people tend to think. there was a dancer that i featured in my book, she was famous for a while her name was margo webb. and she only died maybe ten years ago. she lived to be over 100. but she was in a dance team called norton and webb and her dance partner was harold norton. and, you know, after their -- they had a short career of -- but after her dance career was over, she didn't just go in a corner and die somewhere. she went back to college to hunter college here in new york. she was born in harlem. she finished her degree, and she taught school for 40 years. she had a nice life with a family and, you know she taught dance in many ways. i think people have this idea of people as artists if they don't become famous, they aren't successful in their art, or

they're not a successful person. and that's not always the case. a lot of artists have had different journeys or they've inspired other artists. she is the one who kind of sent diane carroll on the right path. ms. carroll celebrated her 80th birthday yesterday. 80 years. [applause] but she's, you know, josephine was the p friend to her who said oh, girl, you can't wear that. [laughter] so, i mean i just like the little stories like that, you know the little the little tidbits in history the dorothy dandridge and nat king cole going around hollywood pitching a tv series for them to star in. turned down. can you imagine if we could watch that on youtube today? i love that. i didn't see a lot of that in history. i saw a lot of dr. king and rosa parks.

which is fine, we need to know our history but we need to know all aspects of our history. >> i want to say it was clearly so important to everybody else, because the book started from the tumbler and the images online that got such an overwhelming response. i think someone called it a bomb to the soul, to see those images. >> thank you. i had the idea for the book years ago but, you know, turned down like many writers are. it's expensive to produce, we're not sure there's an audience for it -- >> an audience rose up, right? >> they didn't believe it, so social media was a way to engage that audience and to kind of show, you know, expose people to a picture of err that kit not in a cat woman suit. sammy davis can -- jr. put his money into the 1959 film they starred in. there's a lot of things i would

like people to think about when they think of these people. not just the one-note thing. lena horne pinned to the pillar, you know in i want them to think of other things, you know? that's where that came from, from the tumblr page and my publisher actually approached me from that. so i was fortunate in that aspect. >> thank you for that. it's a beautiful book. >> thank you. >> let's see my -- honestly, i remember i sat in on a grad seminar that nell was teaching after i'd already published my first book. and one of the things she would always say to the graduate students was there's so many questions that have yet to be asked, right? if you wonder why isn't anybody talking about this, it's because no one ever asked the question. yo i need to ask the -- you need to ask the question. if you don't ask the question it's not happening. that, for me, helped make sense of the work that i had done up until that point which the very

first thing that i wrote was a journal article while i was still an undergraduate at spelman that was called writing themselves into existence. and it was about black women who had been freedom fighters and what it meant when they started to speak and write their experience over and against the history that i learned. so again, i was an undergraduate, so fannie lou hamer was this revelation for me. but so much of the history that i was learning even about the civil rights movement was still very male and it would just say and then there was fannie lou hamer, right? >> right. >> but to really -- it hit me, her absence, the absence of her voice was as an undergraduate. so that piece in a way the first two books that i did have to do with writing other pieces of black women's history back into existence. so the first book about hair

literally was because i understood the complexity of hair for black women as central to citizenship and femininity. partly because i grew up in the south and in san francisco california. my parents are divorced, so i split years. when i with -- when i was in florida, what hair meant my grandmother was all about me and miss bess city and getting my hair straightened. she was not ashamed of being black, she was a part of a very specific be kind of black community. but hair for her meant one thing, and it couldn't -- and it would cause trouble. in a segregated -- florida is no joke around race really. florida has got a whole reconstructed thing going on. for a segregated black community, she would like while you cause that trouble on yourself? that right there of all the

fights that we have, why that one? when i was with my mother in the late '60s, really '70s, you know, we were running around at the mar run county -- marilyn county courthouse. the differences of what hair could mean to black people in the same decade in different regions of the country and for different general rations -- generations, there were nuances there that were beyond politics and asimilar -- assimilation that spoke to the complexity of our experience, and i simply didn't see it when i was in graduate school. i simply didn't see black women -- i write about black communities, but my point of entry is often black women. i did not see the complex communities that a i recognize. and so hair, for me, became the first kind of thing. and while i was doing the hair book i stumbled across this group of hair dressers that

madam c.j. walker friended a publication called women's voice, and that was published for 20 years. these hairdressers all over the country basically like, wrote about the stuff they were interested in. if it was politics, they were not writing about how to get a man. politics economics. again, talking about black women as business people in ways i had not seen. and its publishers we -- as publishers, we publish that? and the hairdressers, this is what they were doing with their money? and i could not find this publication anywhere. and this is a period where all you hear about is black women as maids and black women as escaping the south from sexual abuse and black women is the underbelly of -- they created a magazine. and then i found out they created another magazine. [laughter] and the way that i found that magazine, and i'll stop, the way that i found women's voice

having gone to black college i was looking for this magazine everywhere. i knew it existed, because people would mention it in various places. but none of the places that should have it the library of congress, none of the black press, i couldn't find it anywhere. i just, i would keep finding just little scraps of mention about it. and finally i called -- because i went to black college no disrespect to spelman whose library was actually one central library, but i knew that things were not always preserved and written down collected in a certain kind of way. so i literally called up fisk university. i started calling black colleges and saying can you look in the places -- i'll pay you to get an undergraduate to look in those boxes that i know that exist and just see fisk university had the whole run. >> wow. >> yeah. and they sent it to me. [laughter] /.

[applause] but that has to do with knowing -- i knew enough to start calling howard. i knew enough to call the au center. i knew enough to call -- you have to know certain things about black people and black culture that a you won't necessarily learn necessarily outside of it to figure out how to research it. so that's, that's my -- >> thank you for that. >> yeah. >> well, i have to say that her first book was what got her to princeton. >> she sent me an e-mail -- nell painter sent me an e-mail -- >> from paris she sent you an e-mail. >> you did. >> i sent her an e-mail from paris. [laughter] i've done a lot of books and you know, they start in different ways. the first one was a dissertation. you write a dissertation, it becomes a book.

right, cheryl hicks? yes. and the next book was narrative of jose hudson which is an autobiography of a black communist. and i was advised not to do that book because he was a communist, because he was a black southerner and because he was still alive. but i loved it. i still love it. the third book was a history of the united states at the turn of the 20th century. so that is not just black history, but it turns out that -- it turns out that a lot of things that happened to black people are useful for understanding larger societies or larger histories. and, you know, for the longest time when i was advising dissertations, i would say to my graduate students like cheryl -- who didn't listen to me either -- i would say, you know,

take a topic that has that's not just a black topic, but in which black people play a large part. and then you can claim that you have mastered this big thing. and you have also read a lot about black people. i don't think anybody took that advice. [laughter] black people are just too interesting. no, that's not true, because i had some -- i had all of my graduate students were not writing about black topics. but the ones who wanted to write of black topics continued to write about black topics and didn't take the tack that i had suggested. standing in armageddon, the united states history kind of limped along for a while. the only reason i have a career worth seeing is thanks to the new york times book review.

"the new york times" book review has reviewed all of my books. "standing in armageddon" is a very progressive history of the united states which the radical historians did not review. and the problem was that i am not the right kind of black people for the editors of the then-radical journal. middle class. female. but "standing in armageddon" still lives it's in its second edition, and it's selling very nicely. the next book was so journal iser truth -- sojourner truth which my colleagues here have mentioned very generously. let's see, what came after that? southern history across the color line which is a collection of essays about southerners some of whom are black and come come -- and some of whom are not. and then there was "creating

black americans" which came to me, which was proposed to me. and if i had known how much work it was going to be, i wouldn't have done it, because it was a hell of a lot of work. i didn't know art history at the time. so it was a lot of work to write a synthesis of history by yourself. but i did learn a lot about black artists because all of the images are black fine art. i decided i was only going to use black artists. and black artists who work on historical topics. so it's not an art history, but since most people don't know any black art history, it's way in. the it's a way -- it's a way in. and then the history of white people, which started like

sojourner truth, the the history of white people started with a question. i started working on it at the turn of the 31st sent century when the russians were bombing children any ya. and there was a photograph on the front of "the new york times" of chech ya looking like berlin in 1945. it was the capital of chechnya. and i'm thinking why are white americans called czech ans? does that make any sense? so i asked people and nobody had a good answer. so took a while to answer the question, and then i had to go in front of the answer and then after the answer, so it took a long time. but that book became a new york times best seller, and people carry it on the subway like a secret, you know? people look over and think, what are you reading?

[laughter] so that book, that book has done well. at the moment i am writing a memoir, which is the hardest thing i've ever written. it's called "old in art school." t because i was old -- because i was old in art school. [laughter] and people say well, why do you use the word "old"? can't you say older? [laughter] no. say it loud. i'm old and i'm proud. [laughter] [applause] >> i want to go to q&a but can you give just a few sentences on the transition to art school from being a historian to -- >> yeah. so it started with sojourner truth, the sojourner truth photographs. i didn't know anything about photographs, so i went over to mark han which is the art a history library of princeton which is, it's just -- it's heaven.

so there are all these books on everything on art. the only problem is you can't take them out. so i would just sit there and is read and read and read and learn about photographs and images and the rhetoric of the images, and i just loved it. so that started me. and then i thought -- my mother, actually started a new career. you knew my mother, didn't you? yeah. we share the bay area, and i know her mother, and my mother is deceased, but she knew my mother to. >> i loved your mother. >> yeah. my mother was fabulous. don't get me talking about my mother. [laughter] but my mother wrote a book after she -- she wrote two books after she retired. the second one is a memoir, and it's called "i hope i look that good when i'm that old." [laughter] because that's what people would say to her. and now they're saying it to me. [laughter] so when i get old to, i'm going

to write a book called "i hope i look that good when i'm that old, volume ii." [laughter] anyway, my mother said you can do something after -- >> right. >> so i took painting classes at princeton, and i did the drawing and painting marathon at the new york studio school. so i would get up at 6:30 in the morning and take the newark light rail and then take new jersey transit and then take subway and then get to a street before the youth. and i would stand up for eight hours and draw and paint and i loved it. and then my mentor, bill gaskins here, would give me bits of wisdom every now and then to keep me grounded. and also to answer questions that the rest of my art education wasn't answering. so i did a bfa in painting at

mason gross school of the arts at rutgers. yea, rutgers. and then i did an msa at the rhode island school of design which was the hardest educational experience i've ever had. >> thank you for that. so much more to talk about. i want to open it up now to questions and comments. and open up the conversation. so there's a microphone here -- there's microphones in these aisle ways so please. and we can just alternate mics, right? okay. >> hi. >> hello. thank you all for being here. i appreciate your conversation and your comments. i am an elementary teacher-educator, meaning that i work with older folks who want to become elementary schoolteachers. i've been seated behind some young people, and i know there

are some in the audience. and what i'd like to hear from you, tapping into your words of bits of advice is maybe some counsel, some recommendations and some suggestions to young people especially where they have access to a range of technologies and tools but many times don't have the opportunities in schools to use those. so how would you begin to give just a little bit of advice, motivation and encouragement to young people to write to write about themselves and begin to look for their own stories and narratives? >> thank you for that, yeah. >> i have one suggestion. take them to the library. yeah. >> i'm, actually, it's funny the book that i'm working on right now is about white supremacy and black education. so what to tell young people, i'm going to, you know tear it down, and we've got to rebuild it. which is a whole longer thing because i'm in the middle of a

book that's looking at how black people have been educated and how lucrative our miseducation and undereducation -- >> that's right. >> -- often is with certain segments. and we're in a period right now where that's the case. so it's, but it's funny, i'm thinking a lot about k-12 education. but in terms of how to save yourself, i do think you've got to get off the internet. technology is a fabulous thing, but it is literally one of the things that so-called reformers and people who are running both -- how education is talked about at the government and corporate and business level is all the same thing right now. it's one of the ways that they, that an education is being unmade. it's a tool. it's a tool. and the ways that some in power are using that tool mean that you may not ever see the book. if it's not a kindle book. if it's -- there's not a web site with it.

to start to ask the kinds of critical questions still takes people in rooms with young people. teaching them how to think critically how to ask your own questions. all we need to do is give you the tools to answer them but if you don't know that there are questions to be asked, and unfortunately at this moment in my cynical -- and i'm pessimistic right now, not optimistic -- at this moment it's the question of thinking if they're reduced to a test score which doesn't have a lot to do with it. so find ways to question. find people who will question you. ask questions. demand answers to your questions. from your peers from your family, from people in the grocery store. it doesn't really matter. [laughter] but become a questioning human being. [applause] >> i agree. >> i wanted to add one thing. i came up before the age of

facebook or social media so for me it was "essence" magazine. i love the library i love the smell of books i loved going to the library, but i had this conflict because i loved the library, but i didn't see myself in the library. what i would say to those young people is to trust what you know and not just what you read, but what you know deeply about yourself and what you love and to create from that place. so i think for me it was loving books and loving the word and loving art but not seeing myself reflected and knowing that as much as i could take in knowledge, i could also produce knowledge. and so to trust where i came from and what i knew to be true and to work from that place. but thank you for the work you do, by the way. so a hand -- [applause] >> good afternoon. my name is tyrone nero. i'm a social worker and also a veteran. and i just started a nonprofit organization, it's called black diaries. and my business part her and i

we both graduated from columbia and the whole premise is qualitative stories that black folks are going through. like get those stories out there that really are meaningful. and one of the things i think that's important as i listen to editors and writers is, like, how do you find the right story to tell and then the right meaningful powerful, like story? because we all go through things. everybody goes through stuff. and one of the things, the challenges that we have is we just came back from haiti and we have a big chunk of stories that we heard there. we were in baltimore there's these huge stories. and our whole goal is community organizing. and i understand that art is a part of it, i understand that being empowered is a part of it. but i am utilizing the internet because we are all video-based and documentary-based on telling our stories from our perspective.

and i just would like to get insight on when you choose what to talk about or what to write about, i'm sure it's all internal, but how do you get outside resources to -- as noted by a hemowho was arrested, as noted by shah question that who was dealing with these type of things. like how do you get your motivation from folks that are in the communities? >> i would say that the question to ask is for what purpose. because you have a lot of material, and some of -- a lot of it is probably really interesting even though it does not necessarily suit your purpose. so if your purpose is to illustrate how someone got from being aimless to going to the library to going to community college, then you find the story that furthers that narrative. so in art we call it cure rating, in publishing we call it

editing. so you have a lot of stuff and you need to edit toward your end. >> thank you fir that question -- for that question. >> my name is edward harris, and my question is do you find it almost your burden to address the, i guess the basic narrative that's out there now? so with it being the mary jane girl or cookie, do you find that in your writing and your editing process that you try to steer away from the archetypes and maybe lend them to something that's nontraditional? for instance, sister, you said you were being a little pessimistic right now about some things. i get that. i'm a filmmaker myself. belief me, i get that. -- believe me, i get that. but on one end of saying, okay, it's typical that you have the

fly sister that's looking for i guess, the perfect scenario as opposed to someone who's saying, you know, i'm not going to buck the system i'm going to go try something else i'm going to try an ago regaron lifestyle, you know, maybe i'm going to have a mushroom farm be as opposed to try to fight through the corporate ladder. do you find that you have to offer those options in your writings and in your process? >> i think, if i understand your question, i think that there is a cultural appetite for certain kinds of narratives and images of black people. >> yes. >> and when i say "cultural appetite," we have to almost feed a machine that sees -- it happens with women. like, there's the same kind of cultural appetite for specific images of women across race. there's a certain cultural appetite of images of black people. not so much -- well, yeah. anyway -- [laughter] before i start like --

[inaudible] and i think and this kind of goes back to the question over here, in terms of how do you pick stories again, you have to know that such stories exist. and then you tell stories that can deepen and broaden and widen. you're not going to displace. i don't -- pessimistic here. >> [inaudible] >> i don't think you're going to make it -- >> [inaudible] certain options. i mean -- [inaudible] i have a 16-year-old daughter. and when you start looking at even with the documentaries, the options that are generally there -- >> right. >> -- they all colored within the lines. whereas 80% of us live somewhere along the line or completely outside of the line completely, right? so how to function in those options, you know? do you find it sort of incumbent

upon you guys, you know, because you're the ones who are doing or the ones who are out there on that particular front? i know as a filmmaker i kind of feel like yeah, you know, i can discuss what the issue is, and you know, be very scholarly about what the problem is without offering some sort of substantive -- >> right. >> -- solution at the end of my process. >> uh-huh. >> then you're just kind of pimping, you're sort of poverty pimping in a way, you know? you're making money off of explaining the problem without actually taking it upon yourself to throw a solution out there and to be criticized for that solution. so do you find that a hard balance in what you do? >> yeah. i mean i can answer that, for sure. i'm a cultural anthropologist, and i did ten years of field work in detroit in a homeless shelter for girls in detroit, and this was an issue that came up for me and still does again and again and again through every part of that process. so i initially started out thinking i was looking at this shelter as -- i was going to analyze the shelter. and it ended up becoming about

those young women and not just the young women in that shelter who lived there but their mothers and their aunts and whether grandmother came. because it was exactly that, right? it gets to a point where you feel like -- and we're talking about real, live people, right? not creating a fictional story but real, live people whose narratives seem to so easily fit into these tropes we've heard before these very simplistic tropes, the single mother with three children or, you know, everybody's living with the grandmother. and the thing was, that was true for a lot of those young women, but that wasn't the story. right? and that was such a simple story. and that story could become so dangerous if that story wasn't unpacked. and if those young women and their mothers and their aunties weren't able to also tell that story in their own way through their own voice. and i just want to say one thing especially when we talk about young black people, we tend to talk about them as if they don't come from families unless the problem is a family. we talk about them as if they've

dropped from the sky and aren't tied to communities and aren't tied to larger histories. so when i initially started the field work, i can't write this just about the shelter because it's recreating these same narratives that are not helpful. this is no solution. it's just telling us what we think we already know. so that's why i stayed there for ten years almost twelve, because i really started to live with those young women and their families to think about what does this mean beyond this superficial trope that we think we understand? it also, honestly forced me to look at that shelter differently. i was ready to be like, oh, this shelter is a bad institutional space, and it's just recreating, you know oppression. that wasn't the case either. you know what i mean? it's complicated. and with we're not -- if we're not brave enough to play in the nuance and the gray area and to be wrong and to revise what we thought before, then we're just going to keep recreating these same dangerous stories that do nothing but allow us to live in a fantasy that we think we're

right and we have the answers when we actually don't. but thank you for that question. thank you. [applause] oh there's -- hi. >> hi. my name is ronnie, i'm a full-time ph.d. student at university of houston studying urban education. and in texas we have adopted new textbooks in history that mention, they talk about the civil rights -- i'm sorry the civil war and they mention slavery as a very side issue and that the civil war was about states' rights. not that states -- not states' rights to own people, but it was about states' rights. so this sort of revisionist history, we see it often in houston and in texas -- that's where i'm from. [laughter] help us. [laughter] but i'm sort of wondering what do you think our responsibility is as -- and i won't say the learned, but just conscious people, people who know, like, we're retelling the story wrong

or we're making it up as we go, or we're making the story that it looks better for some people and not as bad for other people. what is our responsibility as writers? i think in my mind i think maybe i am a writer. but what is our responsibility as parents as educators, as teachers to tell history well? because, yeah, it is all an interpretation, but also to tell it well. so when you were speaking about sojourner truth, and it's like that didn't happen. so what is our responsibility, again, as parents, as educators as teachers, anybody in this room. how do we get those stories to our kids right? >> you go buy them. [laughter] you go buy them. we now have -- we are 30 years into african-american studies and in those 30 years we have produced a bounty. i have written a textbook, you know a general study. cheryl hicks here has written

about incarcerated back women which is a case study. you're looking in front, you're standing in front of authors. we have the books exist the films exist the stuff is out there. so as a parent, you're asking a question as a consumer, the stuff is there. it's in the library. it's in the bookstores. we've done our part. you do your part. [applause] >> about texas in particular let me just say because, again, i've just been reading about it. and your state is no joke. there's a lot of no-joke states, florida is too. but texas has got a whole other thing -- >> because what we order in textbooks, people say oh, texas ordered that, we should all -- >> because texas is the biggest market, texas and california. people want shapes of what everybody else sees. but one thing i will see is

there have to be consequences for people for getting this wrong, right? [applause] >> right. >> there has to be consequences and almost -- at this point almost community by community people are going to have to figure out what those consequences are. yes, we have textbooks are one issue that certainly need to be addressed, but there's all kinds of ways that public education right now is being undermined. and i'm sure as you all know right now the public education system is majority of color and majority people who are poor. right? so when these big decrees start coming down from the department of education there's certain people who are being impacted. and if we're not organized, if we don't even think about a response, if we just say oh, the textbooks, you know, texas and california, they're rewriting the whole thing. although this thing about the civil war having nothing to do about slavery, that's not even new textbooks. that's -- there's a strain of

american history that's happy to tell the whole history of the civil war and not mention black people. like really it's an afterthought. that's not even the most egregious ways of retelling i think. because that one, we see it. there's all kinds of other ways that narratives get shaped about black people as pass i have consistently -- passive consistently. there's a whole way not even just about the ways that we were not passive slavery our history is one of trauma can be. there is a narrative. there is a way that people can the tell the whole history of black people in the diaspora. the department i'm in now, we do african and caribbean and -- there's a whole way you can tell our history where we are constantly having things done to us and you would never know ever, that we ever did anything for us. that we ever fought back and won. like -- right? and there's no consequences for

anyone. so as nell said, but the knowledge is out there. it's not secret. >> there's another since the charlton atrocity -- charleston atrocity, and here i will brag about another one of my former ph.d. students chad wilson who started a bibliography of essential reading. it is there. it's there. >> i also want to add the essential reading with kids or with adults, sometimes people can feel like we've mentioned being exhausted before. there are ways to enjoy it organically and, you know, just naturally through different avenues. if you have a kid that's interested in sports, maybe a sports biography would be -- a biography of muhammad ali or joe lewis may interest them. if someone is interested in culinary arts, there's an author who wrote a book about african-american history through food. i believe it's jessica -- jessica something, i forget. and i'll tweet about it or

something later, because that bugs me. but there are different entry points that you can take in there while we are fighting the good fight with these textbooks or whatever instead of losing time and in ten years the 5-year-olds are 15, you know? we can fill in those blank withs now organically -- blanks now organically. they're on -- on netflix there are different documentaries on there from different aspects of black life. as everyone said here the material is out there. it's there. >> thank you. this is our last question. >> hi. my name is a.d. mentor and you brought up a point a very interesting point, and i figure i better ask this question because if i didn't i'd lose my mind. you mentioned that when you were doing research for a particular magazine, in order for you to get that information, you had to choose a nontraditional way of getting that information. part of -- i'm big history, i

love history. history's primarily what i read, and i'm a consummate researcher. and i often find that to be absolutely true for black people in america. one of the things during my undergrad years, one of my first jobs was working at my college's library, specifically in archives. and i was great until i got fired. [laughter] and i got fired because one day an alumni had delivered information on my school's connection to the underground railroad. and i'm the only black person in the whole place. you put that in front of me, i'm not getting any work done. but years later when i talk and communicate to people on research i always say have you gone to the university and find out what they have in their a archives? and it's never it never comes to people's mind that there are what we call nontraditional ways in which we can find our

history. with that being said, the question is are there resources or institutions or just people that are actually doing this nontraditional research on black people that can be passed down to younger people especially since a lot of this stuff is starting slowly becoming digitized, or a lot of the universities are starting to open up their archives to allow regular folks like me and the people here to actually look and see, you know, the complete story of our history? >> let me say really quickly because i know that we're out of time my issue right now is not the lack of different kinds of research tools that have -- like black newspapers going back to the 19th century. there is microfilm sets of those. the national association of colored women's papers which is fabulous and covers all kinds of stuff -- >> [inaudible] >> it's not.

it's still on microfilm. it hasn't been digitized. the issue starts to become -- we did a project on cointel pro and i made them go to the library and look at the papers, and it was like a hunt. i told them go find out when this happened, this happened this happened. there's indexes and stuff. it wasn't like i was telling them to go through 150 reels. and they literally were like what is microfilm? right? you mean i have to actually go where now? [laughter] to the archives? and they were hostile about not being able -- they weren't mad if they weren't mad -- they had to spent four or five hours discovering that they'd have to go to the library and the project would have taken them an hour and a half maybe -- [laughter] if they had gone like i told them to do in the first place. if it's not easily accessible -- >> yeah. >> and if it's not digitized, right? we -- that's where we're getting lost. things may still be in boxes, but if you have to go to a

guide, an actual paper guide -- like if you have to go to the collection and request the boxes and then look at the guide and then tell -- like that's a foreign, that is becoming for a whole generation, even for graduate students, more work. because there's so much available online. they're kind of like maybe i can just look at the stuff that's online. and so that's a different kind of battle that has to do with just teaching. teaching training, learning. and i keep saying stuff is hidden that you really want to know about. the stuff that's in plain sight the stuff that's easy is not always what's best for you. i know that we are at the wrap-up stage. >> [inaudible] [inaudible conversations] >> we can talk, we can talk afterwards. i'll be here. >> this is fascinating. we just need to wrap up. i just want to say thank you so much to all of the panelists. what we've covered -- [applause] in 90 minutes is really astounding. and thank you to all of you for your comments, for your

attention, for your presence. >> and thank you aimee meredith cox for moderating an amazing panel. [applause] thank you so much. you'll pardon me for a little bit of housekeeping. these amazing women's books are available. painter, rooks and cox, at the barnes & noble tent directly outside. nichelle gainer's book is at the schomburg book shop directly upstairs. please thank our panelists once again. [applause] we will be back near a half an hour for the final panel of the day, race and politics in a time of crisis. please come back, but get some books. thank you. [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> and booktv's live coverage of the harlem book fair continues in just a few minutes.

[inaudible conversations] >> we are in the one of the reading rooms of the schomburg where our special collections are held. and we have some real treasures that are a part of the collection. very honored to have this work. >> let's work our way down the row. >> sure. >> now is it okay if the camera gets in relatively tight? >> camera can get in tight. >> okay. >> as you can tell, this is an old book. it turns out that this book is 200 years older than our country. it was published in latin verse in 1573 by juan latino who was a man of african descent in grenada, spain. he had been enslaved, he was emancipated, became a scholar of grammar and published this book. this is one of arturo schomburg's prized possessions. it's part of his original collection that came to the schomburg center and now lives

in our rare book collection. >> now, i notice that you're handling this without the white gloves that curators often use. >> yeah. we are not as, as, what's the word particular about that each though we care deeply about the collections. part of it is that these materials are in the service of learning. and as much as we take great pride in preservation, we make sure the books are in proper conditions, i'm not going to do any long-term damage to this book by picking it up and turning a few pages. >> anyone come in and see this book? >> anyone can see that book, and if they happen to read latin, then all the better. >> familiar name to a lot of people sir richard wright. >> richard wright, this is his first major novel. this book, "native son," published in 1940 put richard wright on the map in a big way. because he was wrestling with some of the deep issues of poverty, where they come from,

how to fix them and resolve them in a novelist's hands. in this case this version, first edition, was signed to the schomburg collection by richard wright. that's pretty special in and of itself. but it's even more special that we have the manuscript of "native son." t so book one, for all who know the book, and here are the manuscript pages with richard wright's edits, cross-outs, punctuationing different words -- pungs changes different words. this is, for a literary scholar a gold mine. this is exactly what they need in order to understand the vision of the book and to see the difference between the final product and the editing process. >> khalil mohamed, do you have richard wright's entire collection here? >> we do not have richard wright's entire collection, but we are proud to have the manuscript of "native son." >> do you know where his other records may be held?

>> i do not know. but we can look it up. we're a library. [laughter] >> all right. continuing our tour of the rare or manuscript -- >> that's right. so we know that one of the most celebrated works of a woman writer and particularly an african-american writer who recently departed, maya ang allow. her first major runaway bestseller "i know why the caged bird sings." this is the actual manuscript with her title there in faint pencil "caged bird," inside of quotation marks. >> and this is her handwriting. very neat handwriting. >> this is her handwriting. >> precise. >> this is her staple. here she is laying out the actual manuscript making her own edits and beginning to tell this transformative story. >> now her archives are here at

the schomburg. >> her archives are part of our permanent collection, absolutely. >> and from maya angelou to, this is -- >> yes. socktive of a recent -- evocative to have a recent moment explosion of slavery studies, several of which have appeared in the last couple of years. and more particularly, the steven mcqueen film, " 12 years a slave," this is the first edition of the solomon northrup story that expired that film. and here is the copyright page that i'm turning published in 1853. >> and just got made into a movie a couple years ago. >> that's right. so this work for the schomburg center was part of an early effort by arthur schomburg and his successors to find books by

black people in a time where x slave narrative or enslaved people's writings were not appreciated, were not valued. so once we got past the abolitionist movement past the civil war books like this had very little value in the book world. and so arthur schomburg was able to capitalize on this kind of work because it was inexpensive for a man who was very much lower middle class in terms of his income but very much part of a burgeoning black elite that was committed to this kind of cultural preservation. >> and again everything that we've seen, if we walked in here without a camera crew and without c-span credentials and said could we see this with the archivist? >> that's right. that's what we were built to do. this reading room is in the service of anyone uncredentialed

wanting to have access to material to write to be inspired, to make documentary film. whatever use that they expect to put to it falling within fair use and copyright -- [laughter] they are entitled to have access to the material. >> my guess is that mary, the archive here, would keep a close eye on them if they had some of these valuable materials. >> our archivists and curators and librarians care deeply for the collections, and they make sure people properly handle and use the material when it is out for use. >> you're watching booktv. television for serious readers. you can watch any program you see here online at booktv.org. [inaudible conversations]

>> the schomburg center for research and black culture has hosted the harlem book fair for the last 17 years, and more live coverage on c-span2's booktv in just a few minutes. [inaudible conversations] >> well, now on booktv we wanted to introduce you to jennifer baumgartner executive director of the feminist press. ms. baumgartner, what is -- >> what is the feminist press? well, the feminist press is a regular, independent, nonprofit literary press but we really focus on work by women. not just by women. and then voices that have been marginalized in some way. it was founded 45 years ago to recover a lost literature that went out of print, and then it went on to create some of the first texts of the women and gender studies women in universities now that it's everywhere. and now that every publisher

publishes some feminist books at least, we publish the most cutting edge the issues that other publishers aren't covering because they're too controversial. so all of our books have, i think, a mission behind them and an urgency to them. but they also might have -- they're kind of new and cutting edge and maybe a little niche as well. >> what's your background? how'd you get into this? >> guest: i'm a journalist and a feminist since birth. i was born 45 years ago when a lot of feminist things happened, i guess and i've written six books, i've made two documentaries, and i've traveled the country speaking on college campuses about feminism. i know firsthand that it's actually very mainstream, but that word, feminism sometimes is not the word people would label what they're doing or their belief system which is often very feminist. i don't get hung up on the word. each though we're the feminist press and i love that title we're really an expansive definition of that. and i think that my career, the way that i practice it, kind of

demonstrates that i write -- the mainstream magazines like harper's "harper's bazaar" and vogue and the books that i write are for a mainstream commercial audience. >> host: what are some of the books that the feminist press has coming out? >> guest: i'm really excited about this fall's books. the first book coming out in the fall, in september is a reprint. so we still recover and retrieve feminist work that was very, very important. something we published called "some of us are brave," it's black feminist studies, so most of the -- some of the most important black feminist inte remember chuls are in this book. alex walker to roxanne gaye. the next book in october is the feminist utopia project. alexander brodsky is a well known activist and she's all of -- so they're pretty turbo

and they put together this collection, we know what we don't believe and what we're mad about. and then in november we're doing a literary chef memoir. she's so worth cutting to. she's hilarious, the work is poignant, and the way she writes about food is so pretentious. i feel like i'm part of it, but there's a way in which it's kind of elitist. she learned to cook using processed foods, and when we cook for people and when we make food for people, it's expressing love and she wants there to be more love in the world. and her food is amazing. i have to say they've been very

popular. >> host: jennifer baumgartner, what's your connection to city university? >> we're very fortunate because we're affiliated, but we're not -- we're not really part of them. they give us our office space and they support us in a variety of ways. and, you know it's 34th and fifth eave in manhattan office space, so i don't think we could afford it otherwise. they want to demonstrate part of their values as the city university of new york educating 500,000 students a year. feminism is part of that, and so they support us in other centers that can do that. >> and finally, you mentioned that you're an author. people are interesting in your books, what are they? >> manifesto: young women education in the future, and grassroots, and the third one was called look both ways, the fourth one's called aworse and life. the fifth one is a collection of my journalism, and the most recent one was called we do. and it was about gay marriage and significant speeches by politicians that supported gay

marriage early. .. we no the book is attenuating sometimes. and books are very personal. thatthat is what we're looking to do, find different ways to package. >> a little bit from the

feminist crowd book tv on c-span2. >> this is book tv on c-span2 and we want to no what is on your summer reading list. send us your choices. tweet post on our facebook page or you can send an e-mail. whatwhat is on your summer reading list? book tv wants to no. [inaudible conversations] >> and now it is time for the last panel. it is a discussion on politics, and this is live coverage on book tv from c-span2. [inaudible conversations] >> good afternoon and welcome to the final panel of this amazing day humanities programming at the harlem book fair. it's my pleasure to be here to introduce our moderator.

i want to say a bit about her. these are fabulous authors whose books are available at the book fair directly outside of the barnes & noble not horrible tent. you'll go outside, purchase a book. you will come back and have it signed by some amazing people. does that make sense? yes. thank you so much.much. and i'm not hustling. i am sharing with you the lovely moment of having a book from these people i have assigned. our moderator for this amazing panel for strikes me as timely's. a huge professor of the studies and faculty associate at princeton university. the author of prospects of the 3rd politics of poetics and hip-hop, and we are beautiful and be up terrible for racial

inequality in the united states. it's. [applause] >> i am going to begin by introducing my fellow panelists briefly and then we will just get right into it so. to my immediate right is señor calton roberts director of the institute for research and african-american studies and associate professor of history and associate professor osos your medical sciences at the school of public health at columbia university. he writes teachers and lecturers widely on african-american history urban history, had a history of social movement. his book was published by the university of north carolina press in 2,009's. the political economy urban geography and race between a late 19th century and the mid-20th century a time

which encompasses the jim crow era and the bacterial pollution to the advent of antimicrobial therapies. professor chris lebron yale university and received his phd from mit in 2009 and is the author of the award-winning book the color of our shame and justice in justice in our time and has also written a peace about race in america. to his right his professor now irvin painter who currently lives in western newark new jersey author and historian the edwards professor of american history america at princeton university author seven books including the history of white people creating black americans, african-american history in the committee and sojourner truth. she is also a professional painter works digitally and

manually on artists books most recently on our history by no painter .27. and ancestral arts'. professor painter received her phd at harvard and her msn painting from the rhode island school of design. please join me in welcoming our panelists. [applause] we are hear to talk about politics and a time of crisis. and i was thinking we could begin by thinking about the current state of affairs. and we just think about the last week we have a pretty dramatic way whence were thinking about this moment. in the past week we have encountered the deaths of

two black women in police custody's. shortly before the mass murder at emanuel church in charleston. we celebrated -- that is probably the wrong word but remember the anniversary of there garner death's command so much has happened betwixt and between these moments. we have the data came out. 40 percent of black children live in poverty. the absolute number of black children living in poverty. we have black unemployment remaining twice the rate of white americans etc. and so i want to begin by asking the question of all of you for the question that doctor king asked in 1967 where do we go from here?

>> all right. i'll start. i think there are some people in the audience who share with me having lived through the 1960s. and having gone through the 60s' and then coming back around it gives you a real sense if you want to be pessimistic about it how things have not changed that much. things have changed a lot but still as you mentioned a lot to look for's. what i would like to do is not to focus solely on what we have to the poor because if you were here for the earlier session please bear with me. going to repeat something i said. i almost feel as if there is a conspiracy to keep us from doing our work by engaging

us constantly with atrocities. as. as a historian and as a person who has lived many decades now, i don't feel that somehow more black people are being murdered. i think we're simply hearing about it. and in a very sad and perverse way a stuff for i suppose. but my real topic is that we have to find means of coming to terms with the atrocities' tomb of finding steps to counter them whether it's going into the street whether it's joining an organization it's giving money probably have to be able to take a step. to do something already gives you some space. and then to continue on your own.

>> so two things on my mind. a lot of people look around and see black men a couple rappers who are worth half a billion dollars are approaching that. lebron james being called king james. see, look, things are different. there was correct, and they're has been a lot of change from the change and progress are two very different things. things can change, but that does not mean they look better's. things can look different. that does not mean you have moved forward. you change the scenery. >> actually had some progress. think your right about change, but they're has been progress. >> sure. >> that doesn't mean that everything is okay. >> my comment, the people

who say what things are changed therefore we're done. i beg to differ a bit because by definition a crisis is a puncture or disruption of normal. usually whoever is the subject but this has been the normal for a long time, for centuries. the only difference now is that maybe it's some folks are listening. for the 1st couple years it was a crisis for? technology made it possible for us to hear about it more the statistics. please join more black people. about the same.about the same. this kind of thing has been a story of black america. soso the question is, who is

the coverage really for? this reversal the crisis is white americans without even realizing it's the moral depravity that regulates how black americans are governed, police surveilled, controlled. so maybe we'll we are getting is possibly a moment of genuine where we have the nation's attention. the question is worth a change from here. i think there's something to be said about the pressure.and not letting up's. one of these atrocities happens. every time we say look, this is specific. more time to talk about history which is one of james baldwin's famous and most important themes folks like to forget the history

what that means. >> please. >> i know you care. i knew him when he was a tiny chat. i think it is a crisis for us. again, i speak psychologically because i've heard so many people say oh my god. i can't take it anymore. the constant drumbeat of victimization really is something that makes people feel badly not just where people. >> and i agree. the crisis is really for democracy for what has passed democracy which is clearly been in a state of decay for the past several decades. it's a crisis for governance i mean,, i think that is where the church angel

happen. and i agree while we look for a moment they can prevent us from the real work which is also thinking about the structural which is often quite more dispersed, much more pervasive and insidious. and i. and i think to the question of where do we go from here we have been saying very creatively what we're doing to us all these structures. just for example i don't know why were surprised. i heard that present was the 1st sitting president to visit a prison. and then to my surprise, why would i be surprised. we do not live in a democracy where people -- a lot of people who are not in prison but have been imprisoned can go. they do not represent the constituency so why would you -- you might go to the small town in iowa hoping to pick up a

delegate why would you ever go to the super max. we have to rethink a lot of our assumptions. the level of disenfranchisement that happens. and all the way down. >> just to go back briefly about digital circulation. because part of this is not just that we have become increasingly aware of these atrocities before responding 's. i'm interested in to what extent -- are you optimistic is the word, but are you hardened response is suggestive of the possibility for transformation, or does it strike you simply mobilization but not? what is your perspective on what has happened? >> if i may i think this

moment of globalization is incredibly impressive. i think some of it is technological and the sense that i'm not sure that human history we have had such a pervasive network of communication spread, and it came in a time when we really before twitter or for the internet i mean, you no from what were the three channels you get your news from? i mean,, we have the kind of citizen journalism. you remember what they said about the new york times. that's it. >> but that was in the newspaper. >> i do agree. >> the contrast the history of black newspapers, robust and diminished will arise. >> i might've misspoke. digital media. but we are at a moment but it certainly is intense organization and intense awareness.

we were speaking in the green room before. i was just kind of joking around. i went to the bureau of justice statistics which keeps all the data on criminal justice. we have very little data of a police killings, for example. what we do do have in the case that they're has not been much change over the past ten years which means we're seeing now is always been going on. the differences we don't have an epidemic of police killings. we have an epidemic of people paying attention for being fearless enough to film. the technology you still have to have a human body of the recording and knowing that they're can be repercussions. that is where it is. we are realizing the power does not cede anything. it is not insurmountable.

this is a lot of hopeful ii think. i don't want to be probably has sure naïve particularly after the news of the past week. one wonders looking at the statistics how many other people died in the cells that we never knew about. >> on the one hand i think there is. that was pointing out the black newspapers historically have been on the front part but there's something different about this moment. ironically technology has a very democratizing factor. anybody in this room right now that is something else happened you could begin surveilling right away. not even have to get home and be able of the rest of the world no like that. that is knew and different and powerful and something that i think it's, but i guess i will play level.

it is something that we have to be a little cautious of. one surveillance and always be reversed, especially when you have the power's. everyone is clamoring for police officers to have a camera as a black it is already over surveilled the 1st place. that's what people need to think hard about. walking through neighborhood and you being just -- you don't have to be doing anything. police officers we don't record them as a matter of course. they're catching them in the act or something. possibly to be recorded just crossing the street, walking in front of the bodega known for other kind of activities. what is a mean? this is something else. not to go back to september 11. a very peculiar thing happened. the solitude towers come down. and is played it over and over and over.

the 1st ten times house horrified. the 50th time i started the kind of detached fascination. look at the building is going down. after you see it on loop 50 times the visceral reaction begins to get the old. there is something, we have to be cautious that just because these videos are hitting the web that by itself cannot do the work we needed to do. this begins to dull the senses. i am on leave currently in a notnot going to do this frequently. come back every few days and there somebody new. i have not heard of us under blend. now it's kind of like every five or six days. there's no video. the guys getting shot. it's when that happens over and over again we have to take care that we simply don't say we're seeing it.

has to have the effect of motivating people. and that is the danger of being so pervasive that it becomes a part of the regular new strain. cautiously pessimistic. >> i think those images, and i agree we can easily become inured. we speak is relevant that constant loop also been us often the one not just for the general public and seven of this audience 12 for the general public in the looping quickly became frenzied fire anti-arab sentiment for the patriot act kemal most of things that looping the background from the's. you don't have to be entirely pessimistic understand that. i agree 100 percent. on the other hand, i think having this awareness

command is the painful thing we all have to go through. we have to make sure people are saying it that you cannot run from these images. they will not be relegated to an obscure blog. the mainstream media will take a look at this'. from the pres.'s fabled bucketpresident's fabled bucket list, i'm not sure was on his agenda that is a prison in 2015 when he was 1st elected or even a 2nd time is elected. remove the tape that much further. i'm not particularly disparaging, but i'm not also wholeheartedly in favor of everything he says. i think we very much have given him the credit for taking the initiative to visit the present. i think he's genuinely wanted to do it, but i think his awareness was raised about the work that people have been doing before he was elected.

and now power is actually starting to acknowledge some of this. >> we will we see through the internet, through interconnectivity is very important. but i really was stress of a psychological side and the political side of the importance of action doing something. and that doing something can be in a street and it can be giving money and it can be part of an organization. it can be riding. there are many ways of doing something but speaking as someone who has been through this and knows how long the struggle less we have to 1st have meetings' of doing something and then stepping away and returning to our work. when i say our work for me your work and your work and

your work. i don't just mean the political work. for some people it will be political work. for some people it will be running for office. for some people it will be running reports that will get to the fbi or to the bureau of labor statistics. there are so many ways of doing it. we each have our own work and if we only talk to each other or talk to the world, to the web about our english we impede our homework's and we are not simply black people in english or in anger. we're also writers, scholars, artists whatever else that you do. you need to do that as well. >> yeah. and the.that you make about the psychological wages

resonates with respect to talking about september 11. one of the consequences people talked about after the fact is that those who watched the footage over and over again for more likely to have poster manage stress than those who actually on the ground. there is a way that the witnessing can become a deep wounding if we do not have the resources to do something in response. that is shifting gears a little bit for one of the critiques that has happened that has emerged about who around the mobilize with respect to gender, with respect to gender identity sexual orientation. i mean, do you see -- in the primary critique being it has been much more common for people to mobilize around this gender heterosexual black men that all other categories people who are subject to police

violence or any kind of deadly violence. but about that's the shifting. >> this is a prime example of the privileging or gender privileging of a male stance you feels strange saying that knowing especially as i grew up in the 1980s with things like the extension of the blackmail command entire political discourse. but nonetheless that is still what is. there is a privileging there. and that is a can of worms it really becomes ultimately unproductive. when you start favoring heteronormativity think usually companies. you end up finding yourself close and uncomfortable with critiques make sure black families which has come down since well before the moynihan report's.

the whole line of thought. i think the other thing about as well as that it quickly puts us up where we can talk about my brother's keeper. we have supporters, detractors. i am very skeptical. i think it puts us in a mindset of gender segregation cognitively which translates in the problems which is also an appropriate as well. as a tactic it's completely -- i don't think were being productive's. [applause] >> your brother's keeper. >> i also agree you know, i think whatever has happened is an awful thing. strike that it has made the news as it has.

but i would like to think our fields. one things that we think about is what is happening the opening up of the idea. what has happened locally american families to look ever used to look. i am hopeful that they can change but it is one of those things, american we have to be ready's. i'm not sure without being fully attentive. part of it has to do with a certain kind of gender norm. that is not the right way think that i think. we have to be especially sensitive to whom we speak. i have been guilty.

spoken of the issue for privileging black blackmail victims. we have to be more protective and police ourselves better. a very basica very basic idea that all black lives matter. is not a catchphrase. >> and that's we will result the mobilization in early may to put that back on agenda which is why is important we have the don elmore's of the world for theorizing helping sdis our way out of this. ultimatelyultimately is about politics, action and doing, but we have to think very closely with the fear is actually goes they're. there is a discussion that has to be offered. the support to have those voices has leaders of the movement. >> and in some ways it distinguishes at least for me about this moment that

there are clear black activists are at the forefront's and refusing to set aside issues of gender and sexuality for the sake of some amorphous solidarity that just happens to be an integral part of the work. >> argue that they are inseparable. >> right. >> right. >> newark we have a knew issue there. no longer new. mary baraka son. before that we had a charismatic who is now a us senator. cory booker has a much higher profile nationally. cory booker was just a regular. he did not walk on water by any means. he had a very high-profile. what has happened in newark which is a city that does not have much money at all's is that the administration has been able to tap existing sources of money,

support he and his administration agreed to federal oversight of the newer police which cory booker had his administration far off. so we can have important changes for instance, 2,000 young people have jobs in the city this summer simply because the administration has been active reaching for the use of existing resources. so what i want to say is 1st of all, i think we will we talk about the importance of pushing on a per standard pushing on a cabinet are pushing on the administration that push starts on the local level. and part of what can be our action to keep our sanity can be acted at the local

level. in fact, to say that it is more useful command it feels better at the local level because your working with your neighbors. >> ultimately the hashtag is only the beginning part. thatthat is the communication. >> certainly in newark is not the beginning. we still do retail politics. i went to my next-door neighbor to meet the candidate who became the mayor. so politics still happens on the neighborhood level. and i think that is the more productive level in terms of making change that you can see and it's psychologically doing your work. >> one more comment and i'll just go back to the hope for

change shifting away. i think in some sense what is happening aa source of hope call we're seeing in the committee. when out for a little bit. i'm now seeing the whole group of folks coming up that would have been shown the door. you can't wears jeans. you can't live your life like that, talkthat, talk like that, look like that and be part of the committee i do think there is loosening up of what kind of identities can be counted as the ones we pay attention to. i think if we look at what's going on in some bergen -- urban culture of culture that's another source of loosening up. the movement within the black community about whose lives count.

>> that's interesting. and i guess i see what you're saying, but i also see on some level it is a contraction of the range of ideas that are present's. >> éclat come back. >> actually, i want to go back to this dynamic within the local and national and international. part of what strikes me command i really do agree with what your saying, so much of politics in terms of what you can actually have an impact on happens at the local level. at the same time for those who are marginalized amongst the marginal or those who are minority within minority the most vulnerable population it strikes me that accessing a national or international network actually does really

important work as well in terms of being able to have your experience, your identity bolstered and support a larger scale. you see what i'm saying? i'm thinking about the increase in national and international council of collectivism. in so many cities we are talkingwe're talking about the population that is vastly underemployed utilizing all kinds of markets but that networks nationally and globally in order to begin the processes of lobbying or to begin demonstrating protesting, organizing in ways that would be difficult to do on a local level and very vulnerable. >> my neighbor, former neighbor now moved away and

taught at harvey milk school which has young people who come from troubled backgrounds i think they are transgendered. and for him making when people's lives i don't no if i could say better but giving them from one day to the next to the next to the next, that was retail. and it becauseand it because i'm married to a news junkie and you the same things over and over again, people upset about to have obsessive of the national level i'm so much more focused on the local level where you can do face-to-face for at least where you can do issues that matter to the people in your committee. so in newark for instance, the schools are very big issue.

you know, in a previous session you're talking about school issues and what happens with rich outside people, many of whom are white deciding what happens in schools whereas on the local level that the people whose children are in schools. and that has changed what happens with schools in newark. >> i think we are also seeing an increasing amount of retail politics, local organizations networking internationally where they are working with the developer base where they are and working for local issues but seeing the connection with issues on the other side. i think i'm not sure that

they're has been a moment in quite some time anyway though we had so much international media international scrutiny on criminal justice. really the last year. mike brown in particular. certainly the globe was watching trip on martin. that was vigilante justice. vigilante and the miscarriage of justice in the courts. there is now police misconduct a murder started out small and modest many years zeroin and is working throughout the south and 70 people all over and making the connections in chicago

all of these started as local affairs. it's wonderful to see how much of a connection is not going on. transcending language barriers, national barriers. >> that's a very useful thing for getting people out of newark on miami or houston and simply having them talking to there counterparts in other countries and in other languages. i mean,, to break down the colonialism of american culture in which so few people no another language. in newark a lot of the spanish their children speak english. the children continue to speak spanish and the children continue to have a larger mindset. it's. it's a very good question by and large certainly outside of places where

american cultures very parochial, very english centered. the ability of people to go and say we're number one and not feel the need to no languages are cultures that disappointing. it's. >> technology has allowed us to get the message out they're has to be a certain kind of pressure brought to bear on the nation. and it seems fairly resistant and impervious to the outside pressure especially when it comes to the population when it comes to the massive world war ii some people think that political concern that it

can't just be known as crimes against humanity. without your holding this country to account. so i mean, you know hollywood stars. that's find a show solidarity. interest on. eric garner his wife wearing i can't breathe i can't breathe. if it happens elsewhere other people kill. and this is an awful thing. they kill people here. there's not this kind of

great rally. >> i agree. we're seeing at the moment a reconfiguration of the united states and its geopolitical place in the world. during the cold war you could as a civil rights tactic national, national opinion. how far you get with that depends on the variables. for example, the way process covers the little rock nine, the nations the 1957. role watching. albeit very circumscribed express these issues and national forum. like you say sheer hypocrisy the connections between our local efforts.

there is sothey're is so important. the measure shifting gear. it's everywhere. >> a lot of have an answer about what throw something out the taken for granted and then you adding that the united states is no longer in the hegemonic situation in the world. and then on the right side and the importance of the

kind of counterpoint. counterpoint. and on the other side the current issue with the confederate flag. and this so far as i understand occur without a soviet union putting the figure's. so wondering. no, i know something. i know something. i also no around 1964 that large numbers of americans not just black americans still a civil rights have largely. [inaudible] including rabbis and ministers this is wrong. zero, this is wrong. and then with the

confederate flag issue a lot of americans think this is wrong. so this situation giving us a way to recast this situation for finding out that maybe public opinion in the fist hits can shift, not change the shift's to make an opening for civil rights. >> my god. >> that's great. you're absolutely right. i certainly think during the civil -- sorry, the cold war just one factor in all of this. more so perhaps in the 50s that in the 60s' cold war

politics, particularly in vietnam the happy-go-lucky endeavor. i don't think it's a parallel to today. i think that's part of the. that there was a way in which civil rights that overwhelmingly even for the politics of the cold war they cannot be assumed today many have someone that gets engaged in montgomery is is we cannot be meeting here. he wants to separate himself

from the radical tradition. the mainstream civil rights organization. the ones that ultimately lbj was to be. i think to have the connections offers a reconfiguration between not being anyway analysis of the cold war, at least i hope not because it was limited. >> another panelist. i wonder if not a parallel but the interception the aftermath of world war ii the cold war and independence movement and the kind of variety of ways in which they're was a part of transformation and we see

and similarly set of force the work that are pushing people think about the transformation from a not in a kind of sort of instrumentalist way's but if it just as the potential for having the potential to make people think. >> constellation of forces. >> international and domestic. the way that the capitol was moving so rapidly across the globe and everybody is vulnerable increasingly we can read. having a certain kind of

mentalism vis-à-vis race's. it strikes me that there are sources that are play that are pushing people to think. >> i have a.on this. there is an awfully tragic way in which they have done that is change the conversation. the past couple years we have become more aware of police killings. there was always an outlet for people who did not want to own up to the fact that it was racial. the police were given a default credibility. always been kind of framed. if the police officer does something must've done it and i must've been a reason. pick a media site. you always find the people. if you didn't do anything wrong why did he run.

that's a reasonably my next? ii was nowhere. but then he comes along and just kills my people for no reason. a church what he said it that? there is know that. that's just pure unadulterated hatred that cannot be matched by any narrative. onenarrative. one of the reasons why you see the verify coming down this flag is an. stuffing guideline. white supremacist are terrorist. 's. >> they don't follow. >> absolutely. >> then we need to bring the phone down. that does nothing. >> tell me what you think. >> it did follow. >> absolutely.

but i don't think it necessarily follows. >> of course not. >> there are some other things going on. i'm not sure they have to do is to. i don't know what it is. as. as. [laughter] about this so i don't know the answer. i don't even no that it's a good question, but it is striking to me that the scenario you lay down the proceed to fight out so 50s the story for a long time. a very local story. and i don't think that it the kind of national mobilization see the civil rights the 60s.

thera lo time so you know there is a long period there where there is a lot of bloodshed. i am a family with united states in the 60s because we couldn't take the bloodshed anymore. there are just so many black people being killed. that didn't lead to anything for the longest time. a lot of black people got killed in charleston. and even before the president gave that stirring eulogy, the flak started coming down. >> yeah if i hear you correctly, i share a sense of unease as well because it doesn't really translate that because you have a massacre, a flag. i am glad the flag is down. any discussion of it being about southern