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c-span. we're at the university of southern california, interviewing professors who are also authors and we're pleased to be joined by jody agi vallejo. professor, what do you teach here? >> i teach classes in sociology and immigration race ethnicity we look at how today's immigrants and their children are incorporating into american society use we invited you here to take about your book "barrios to burb piston" the making of the mcan american middle class. how big is the mexican american middle class and how do you tee fine it? >> guest: that's such a great question there are many different ways to define who is middle class. there's actually no real consensus, but the way that i define it in the book is by looking at a number of various indicators things like income,

occupational status, working in a white collar occupation, education, having some college or college degree, and then also the type of neighborhood in which you live. in southern california, in the los angeles area, about 25% of the mexican originned population could be considered to be middle class under those indicators of economic status. >> host: that's in southern california. how developed is that middle class? is i it generationol in a couple of generations? >> guest: always a small mcan-american middle class population that existed and it's grown over time, slowly growing over time, and each generation of mexican immigrants and then their children and their grandchildren have generally done better than the generation before. so each generation is advancing

on the majority of these indicators of class status. >> host: why is it important we know this and. >> guest: it's so important that we know about how immigrants and their children are incorporating into american society and specifically how mexican americans are doing because mexican-americans cry me majorout of immigrants in the u.s. and their children are the majority of the children of immigrants. and if you look at how demographics are changing in american society by the year 2040 it's predicted the united states will be a majority-minority country and that growth is driven not by mexican immigration as many people assume, in fact, immigration from mexico is at its lowest levels in years. it's driven by an increase in the second generation, the children of immigrants, and they're really key to america's

economic and social future. we need to make sure that the children of immigrants are integrated into american society and they're having opportunities to obtain socialow economic mowable. >> host: onwe here from politicians that latinos hispanics in america are interested in immigration issues. is that the same case with the mexican middle class population? >> guest: many middle class mexican americans are very interested politically in immigration issues, in comprehensive immigration reform and some of obama's recent executive actions on immigration in part because the majority of middle class mexican americans, and right now i'm actually studying upper class latinos. the majority of middle class and upper class latinos in the country, grew up poor or working class, and they remain connected to immigrants, even if they're native born. they remain connected to the

immigrant experience. this is something that myself and many a scholars discussed. we call it the immigrant narrative or keeping the immigrant bargain. immigrants come here to work, to provide opportunities for their children and so even immigrants who are the children of immigrants who are middle and upper class are still very interested in the policies and issues that would help integrate their families or members of their commune. >> host: there is immigrant experience different than what may be european immigrants faced or face. >> guest: that's one of the big questions that people are always asking and that schoolers very concerned about. are today's immigrants following the same a trajectory as previous white ethnics at the turn of the 20 them -- 20th 20th century and scholars hardly debate this so the there isn't always a cop census.

-- consensus. we find that like previous waves of white ethnic immigrants, that each generation of mexican americans are doing better than the generation before. it's a little different because mexican americans face a very hostile context where they have been specifically criminalized in laws, at the state level, at the federal level by media who overwhelmingly portray latinos and mexican immigrants as unauthorized uneducated. up likely to enter into the middle class. one of the reasons why i wanted to study the middle class segment of the mexican american population. so one of the things that many scholars argue is that we're seeing an upward trajectory in terms of class status, but it may just take a little bit longer for certain segments of

the population, like marxn-americans, because they start off much further behind other immigrant groups. so certain immigrant groups come in with more class resources than generally the mexican first generation. so it might take them longer overall to attain this -- to attain this middle class status. which i why it's important we make sure there are mechanisms in place to support that upper mobile trajectory. >> host: professor do the ones who have made it into the middle class, or who are on that path, do they help their fellow mexican-americans? >> guest: the majority do. i talk about this in the book in one chapter that looks specifically at patterns of getting back to family and co-ethnics. one thing that is interesting that the immigrant experience,

if you grow up poor and have attained your middle contractual or upper class status in one generation you still have ties to poor egg nicks and oar minutes and many in the middle class are looked to provide all kind of financial support for family members and social support, to be really people who can navigate institutions like the social security system of the education system, because they have made it, and middle class mexican americans are very involved in giving back to communities, through scholarship funds, creating institutions that they hope will help to foster more mobility and further growth to latino mexican immigrant class. >> host: because of the situation with the border and illegal or unauthorized immigration, are you fining that members of the middle class mexican american middle class are also unauthorized and/or

illegal? >> guest: no. the significant majority of middle and upper class mexican americans either have obtained legal status or citizenship if they are immigrants, are they were born in the country. one of the most important thing is show in my book, it's really interesting about the mexican american middle class is that, yes, the majority grew up poor, but i also found that some middle class mexican americans are raised in middle class households, and really one of the most fundamental mechanisms that helps middle class -- helps mexican-american families stabilize their economic status is legal status. parental legal status in particular. so parents who have had opportunities to legalize or who speaker the country will legal status have a much faster route into the middle class than people who aren't provided that

opportunity. and in fact, an interesting fining in the book is that legal status was actually once tied to having a native-born child in the ute. so if you had a native-born -- if you gave birth in the united states and your child was a citizen, you could apply to regularize your status, and people who were able to do that, were able to obtain much petitioner jobs, move into better neighborhoods. they were able to -- many accumulated all kindeds of wealth -- all kinds of wealth, opened businesses and were able to provide middle class lives for their children. >> host: what are some pathways to the middle class for mexican american's nonmexican american. >> guest: for the mexican american middle class, one of most important pathways is legal status. having the opportunity to either enter the united states with legal status or for parents to

obtain legal status, because if you think of child growing up in a family with parents who have legal status, who are citizens, all of those economic benefits stream down to children in a way that parents who lack status aren't able to provide. legal status is one critical mechanism. another mechanism is having opportunities for education outside of poor inner city neighborhoods. we know in american society our education system is not equal even though it's supposed to be. we believe and think it is in our minds but many children of immigrants particularly poor immigrants go to school in poor inare city community that lack resources. so one of the things that was really important in my research that i found, especially for children raised in poor families is that if they were tracked into honors classes or gate classes or bussed out of inare city schools they had a

much more direct path into higher education that allowed them to obtain high levels of education go on to law school, become doctors become teachers. so greater access to better educational opportunities and the other really important thing is what we call social capital. it's information that is contained within specific types of networks, and so some lower income families lack access to middle and upper class social capital. the types of information that can provide -- the type of networks that can provide information on jobs, that can explain to someone how to navigate the higher educational labyrinth. i your parents didn't go to college they have no way to help you. so access to mentors outside programs that can close the gaps

in information prove very critical to helping people enter into the middle class. >> host: is the mexican-american middle class politically active? >> guest: yes. >> host: you hesitated. >> guest: well i think that is an interesting question. how do we measure and define that? the mexican american middle class is politically active, many are democrats but there's also maybe republicans. many become especially active when there's a negative social context by politicians 'when politicians are running platforms on unauthorized migration, or saying thatway they want to deport unauthorized immigrants these are key moments in which many people become much more politically active than they might normally

become. >> host: again it goes back to themes -- the immigration issue what at economic issues and education issue? has the middle class group spread out to those issues? >> guest: absolutely. during the recession research showed surveys continue obviously showed that the economy was if not the most important one -- one of the most important concerns about among mexican-american and the mexican-american middle class. so just like other groups they're very concerned about domestic issues within the united states. >> host: can the language barrier be a barrier to middle classdom? >> guest: well research shows that immigrants learn english the longer they're in the united states and the typical pattern is one of linguistic assimilation over the generations. so representative data from the

u.s. census and other large surveys shows that the children -- immigrants generally speak the foreign language, the immigrant language from their country. the children of images are bybiling international by the third generation -- it's just like the pattern of whywhite ethnics. by the third generation the foreign language is dead. we see this pattern with mexican-american. so english language inability can hinder the protects of the parental generation -- the prospects of parental generation but doesn't affect the second generation or children of ims who grow up in american society because they speak english and generally speak both. >> host: what the size of the population? you talked about 25% or so of mexican-americans being in the middle class. population-wise, how many millions is that? do you know across the u.s.? >> guest: i don't have that

number offhand. but it -- there's five million -- over five million mexican-american people in los angeles itself. and, again, it's a interesting population because it's really multigenerational. there's about two million of first generation, and the grandchildren of immigrants is one million them majority of mexican-americans in the united states are native born so we think of mexicans as being immigrants but the majority are native born. >> host: do they tend to cluster? does this group tend to cruster in their living habits? >> guest: well we see that there's been traditional areas in and mexican-americans have typically lived.

places like los angeles chicago, texas. and these are really the typical receiving states. but we have seen a dispersal in the last decade of mexican-americans and latinos in general moving into new destination states in the south and midwest and many move for greater economic opportunities and so you do see cities that were primarily black and white for example in terms of race and ethnicity have seen a tremendous growing in the momentum mom or latino population. so this is something -- this -- the growing is not just concentrated in specific gee graph wall areas. >> host: we can talked about specifics and in the macro. what does all this mean on a human level that we have talk

about? >> guest: on a human level -- it's so important that we understand that immigrants and the children of immigrants -- the children of immigrants in particular are the future of american society. and instead of criminalizing immigrants instead of trying to prevent them from obtaining resources, we should be working on integrating immigrants, making sure that immigrants have opportunities to learn english. the images have opportunities to regular access status. the children of immigrants are linked to the healthcare system. this population is going to make up the majority, significant majority of the work force in the coming decades.

the significant majority of taxpayers, the significant majority of americans. so on a human level we need to understand that there are mutual benefits to integrating immigrants and their children and supporting policies that do that. >> host: jody valleho the author of the book, from bayors to burbs are the making of the mexican-american middle class. booktv on c-span chance. >> there is noon fiction author or book you'd like to see featured on booktv? send us an e-mail, tweet us, or post oregon wall, facebook.com/booktv. >> fox news contributors mary cath rein ham and guy benson argue the political left silents their political opponents through manipulation's discourse. it's next on booktv.

thank you for coming, very exciting be here the in the greater dallas-fort worth area. this is such a beautiful backdrop. as a minimum lenal i was legally required to take a selfie of this in the brown weapon figure we would talk about end of discussion and why we wrote the book and how it is really for better or worse better for the book worse for the country very much a relevant theme for what we're living out every day in the news cycle in this country. and i guess the beginning the genesis, of "end of constitution" began ironically with a whole series of discussions that mary and i would have over the phone that we lovingly refer to in the book in chapter one we call them head explosions, where we will get on the phone with each other, maybe five times a week

it feels like, and at least. >> at least. >> in some weeks and can you believe that this denver whatever -- fill in the branch -- is happening or this is now a thing how much is this a thing. >> you probably had this moment where this was not offensive two weeks ago and now suddenly it is but i blew right past you because it's brand new offensive. we find those every day now and that's how this sort of began. >> we were going back and forth and finally we reel are realized this is a therapeutic experience we give to each other. cheaper than real therapy, which you need when you live in washington, dc, and so we sort of did that for each other and the theme of "end of discussion" the shutting down of debate, the boxing in of rhetoric and permissible thinking, became a recurring problem that came up in our head explosion conversations, and finally what really tipped us over the edge was this event last year, with

brendan eich, the ceo of mozilla in california, and he turn out he had donated to proposition 8 in california, the statewide basically ban on gay marriage, which passed in california in 2008 on the same day that president obama carried the state overwhelmingly, and very blue state. so he had donated to prop 8, and years later he was elevated to ceo of this company that he had helped found and there was a massive storm among some employees at mozilla and outside activists to get him essentially fired or to step down from his position as ceo and he was hounded out. they gave him a choice, with tens of thousands of signatures on the petition, either renounce your views on this issue or get out.

and he sort of halve heartedly defended himself out of the gate and then the storm grew louder and louder, and the outrage industry did its thing. there was a fellow executive of his who is gay who came to his defense and said, well, i've worked with him for a long time. we have disagreement on this issue, but it's never impacted his leadership. it's never impacted any sort of conduct. he was never discriminatory, but that wasn't good enough. his behavior was not good enough. >> nothing do with his record or leadership or whether he discriminated. it was about a political view he held that was unpopular with the people who were launching this campaign. and when he was ousted from the position we both went, this is pretty scary and we both happened to be pro same-sex marriage what he was many friends and colleagues who we

disagree with whom we have plenty of kind conversations because we don't start from the point that, hey everyone who disagrees with me is probably a terrible terrible bigot. that's step one in having a conversation is not assuming that about somebody who disagrees with you and our side is able to have those conversations. but we along at each other and said i disagree on the issue but that doesn't mean people should lose their jobs, shouldn't be hounded out and made a national pariah because you happen to disagree and it looked like a scary turn that we head taken as a country. we decided to finally get off our tuckuses and write something. >> we thought that holding a main stream political position and donating your private money to a political cause ought not be a fireable offense in the united states of america ex-even though it is a cause with which we disagree. that is sort of the beginning as you say of having a genuine conversation and we think part

of the disfunctional state of our national conversation is the impulse on both sides -- our sub toot ill says how the left's outrage industry makes america less free and fun and we do argue in end of discussion, that this is primarily a product and a problem on the left but we are not without our outrage merchants on the right certainly, and we sort of call out our own side in the book, including ourselves personally in certain circumstances because we didn't want to say some on our side aren't good about this, because that is tacky. we have done it, too. but i think the problem with the national conversation is how some people, as we say mostly on the left in our view, begin a discussion by ending it by assuming the very worst about the other person or the other side and imputing the worse possible motives to them, at

which point a genuine exchange of ideas is basically impossible. >> in one of the things we say that america let's free and fun we represent the less free part, because if you can't hold possibly a mainstream but minority opinion about a political issue of the day and also hold your job, how much free speech do you really have? that's what we need to think about and do we want to be that kind of country? on the other hand i look around, and we talk about less fun which is important to me, because i like fun. you look around and you think man, america used to be place where we prided ourselves in pushing boundaries when it came to speech, and ticking everybody off and everybody would be offended and complain. but that was sort of the spirit of the country. and now it feels like the dominant spirit of the country is almost just to set up new boundaries.

i'm offended by that and by that and by that. and that show should not be made and that person should not have a column and that person who puts out on facebook should probably lose their job. that doesn't feel like the sort of raucous free-wheeling free-speech kind of country we want to live in, and i think a lot of -- a ray of hope we found in researching o'end of 0 discussion "because it can get a little departmenting -- a ray of hope was with comedians and you saw that this week wife jerry seinfeld and bill maher, jay leno. >> chris rock. >> chris rock who does not perform on college campuses either because they're so pc, saying this is killing comedy. those guys know that their livelihood is experimenting with words in public. if everyone has a video camera and is looking to be offended, then they can't do that job. if every joke they tell that might go over a line becomes a

national news story they can't do that job. and the immediate reaction, which i loved because it proves our point from the activist left to these guys was hey with the exception of chris rock aren't you guys male and rich and white? i think we have heard enough out of you. here's the thing. those guys are rich. they are powerful. what happens to the comedian who is just start ought who tells a joke that goes over the line? he has no wealth and power to fall back on. jerry seinfeld will be fine, chris rock will be fine. what you're losing is the new comics and people who decide never to do comedy because it's not something that's going to be inviting or be any fun and so that part of the book -- i was glad to find people who are fighting for that, who are realizing that this is a problem, who are frankly cooler than guy and i -- a very low

bar. >> because you need them to carry that message. and what kind of country do we want to live in? one where comedians can't tell jokes? >> the fact that all this sort of comedy stuff has just been happening in the last two weeks i don't know how many of you guys are seinfeld fan but when jerry seinfeld made these statements we were thinking, this is gold, jerry gold. because we have an entire chapter on the war on comedy in the book, because we really -- the end fun is an important part in the end of discussion, so the chapper is titled the uptight citizens brigade and we quote we had a really cool exclusive interview with adam corrolla for the book who had fantastic quotes. >> uncent -- uncensors. >> well, there's stars for certain words but you get at the message, and then also promiscuously quote joan rivers,

a hero of ours because she was so -- she had such contempt for the end of discussion mindset and culture with the people constantly aggrieved about everything and their little sensibilities have been dented and they demand apologies for every perceived infraction, the rules for which change constantly and she would just say, no, i'm not sorry. go blank yourself, basically what joan rivers' response. we're not pro-rudeness in "end of discussion." we believe in the golden rule and treating people well. sometimes when the mob is out there they can smell blood in the water if you're sort of half apologetic and backing away, and joan knew that really well and would say absolutely not. next question. then they don't know where to go from there what do you mean, you won't apologize? >> the beauty and power is they don't have another story after that.

the apology story is supposed to be the next story. when she doesn't give one they go huh. i guess we better find somebody else to get mad at. >> which they do. and so when we were researching "end of discussion" there's this classic quote that we thought what from voltaire. it was a summary of voltaire thought, but it's michigan i think we as americans would hear the quote and not along with, which is i may disagree with what you have to say but i will defend to the death your right to say it. and americans say yeah, that's true free speech, free expression that's great. and what we're seeing is how that term and how that is being sort of twisted and perverted into a new -- an entirely new message, which is, we may disagree with what you have to say and therefore we're going to find a we to punish you for

saying it so we have had political correctness with is four decade at this point. it's not a new phenomenon. what strikes us as new and getting worse is how this outrage is weaponized, and it is turned against people in a way where there's actual retribution for thinking the wrong things or saying something the wrong way and it sort of born on college campuses. college campuses -- >> they're the opposite of college. places that were supposed to be about free inquiry are the exact opposite now. >> oh, and actually so funny it's like this kid was trying to make it into the sequel of "end of discussion." when jerry seinfeld made his remarks a college junior, i believe, at the university of san diego took it upon himself to write a column for the huffington post to explain to jerry seinfeld about humor.

to jerry seinfeld about humor and he was like, no, look, being sensitive to people's feelings, that's our job as learners, and so back off jerry. secondly i'm all about being offended. i'm all about being provoked, provoked and offend until the cows come home, jerry seinfeld, except here are the things you cannot provoke and offend me about. and i would love to have been a fly on the wall with jerry seinfeld reading this column, and i'm sure snackerring about it. >> to be fair, if that kid hat stood up and read that column to me i would have laughed out loud. >> it read like satire and/or like this is not satire. it's like, please provoke and offend me. exceptions apply and here are the things with which you may not provoke or offend me. he actually wrote these are things that can no longber allowed in comedy, like straight up don't shut up. end of constitution.

>> here's -- end of discussion. >> some people said i'm interested in the national conversation that is a real one. i often say it's a good rule of thumb, the first person who says they want to have national conversation is least likely to actually want to engage in conversation. i am interested in that. but sometime outside hear these buzz words like national conversation and dialogue and you might think we are the civility police. but it's actually part of "end of discussion" that is about how the people who are always yelling at you to be civil it's another form of silencing. they're only asking one side to be civil. when the other side gets uncivil, nobody has an issue with it. guy and i are very, i would say civil commentators. even though i sit across from juan and bill, i maintain -- >> whom we love. >> that's the way we play the game. i maintain my good humor. but i do think it's fine for

people to yell sometimes. it's fine for people to get upset sometimes. we can all put on our big boy and girl pants and deal with the fact that sometimes people disagree. sometimes they're not as nice as they should be and that just tsking everybody all the time does not help. >> by the way maybe we can end on this point unless you think of something. we just keep going and feed off each other and all of a sudden 20 minutes are passed and we're like wrap it. one of the things that why we decided to write this book, the felt things were getting expose different. i talk about the weaponization of outrage another element of "end of discussion" we also started to recognize this trickle down effect where these rules and the outrage mobs were not simply targeting public figures. to some extent we have signed up for this nonsense. we live in washington. we give our opinions for a living on tv and radio and in

print. politicians are always walking on eggshells about how they're saying things and not trying to alienate people. but the fact this is starting to bleed down and really permeate all corners of american life, and impacting just average people. if you have a twitter account facebook account you are in some way sort of plausibly a public figure and you see average, normal people punished for things that are so deeply unjust. so we ferret out certain examples. some example we give you have heard of because they made national news. some of them you haven't heard of because it was just a private citizen getting fired from his or her job in a tiny town over something preposterous. one example there is was a deejay in chapel hill, north carolina where unc is, and he was -- >> one of those college towns.

>> he was playing as a deejay, the number one hit in america at the time which was "blurred lines" by robin thicke, song i don't care for she likes. it we argued about that. but he played "blurred lines" at a college bar the none one song in america and a -- this do-gooder, lefty check decided oh we can't have this because -- >> i think chick is offensive. >> there are so many microaggression thursday is -- microaggressions in this book. the whole book is a macro aggression and we apologize deeply for writing it, but she decided that because there is some suggestive lyrics, "i know you want it" is one line, i this could be a trigger for victims of sexual assault and therefore, because someone might be triggered -- >> didn't trigger her.

>> she didn't claim to be triggered. someone might be triggered. she demanded he stop playing the song. he was like, what? this is number one song. we're at a college bar. we're playing the song. at which point she went back to her dorm or whatever, got a whole petition going on facebook got the feminists on campus rile upped up. -- riled up, they wrote a petition saying do commanding a boycott of the bar. the war was like we don't want to be associated to rape culture so they just fired the deejay. he will never spin here again. you special snowflakes are safe from the number one hit in america at our bar and that guy lost his job. for playing the number one hit in america as a deejay. that is nuts. there was another guy an example we give in end of discussion who works for a gaming company video game company, and remember the whole donald sterling thing? the owner of the clippers? who had been recorded by his

lover making deeply racist remarks, sort of secretly? he didn't know he was being recorded in his own home and can it was huge uproar and he lost the team and we have no love lost for donald sterling, he is a racist and we're not defending him, but there was this 20-something guy working for the gaming company who just tweeted, this is an unpopular opinion, he gave that caveat, in his private twitter account. donald sterling as an american has the right to be an nasty bigot in the privacy of his own home without being secreted lid recorded and destroyed. bill mahe regave a great monologue on this, for simply saying maybe you shouldn't be subject to secret recordings that can ruin your life in the privacy s of your own home, the guy two tweeted that was fire immediately, without even -- he wasn't even called in they fired him publicly on twitter.

and so we tracked him down. and he is so mistrustful of the media. >> understandably. >> he flirted with the idea of talking with us for the book and ultimately decided i can't i can't do it. the discussion is literally been ended. and he has been scared by this. just an average guy. these are not the types of things that we want to see happen in a country that we hope to live and think and write and exchange ideas for the next god willing few decades so so we're like this is a problem this not what america is about. let's write "end of discussion" and shine a line on what it going on, how it happens who these people are and how organic outrage are often coordinated, deeply undemocratic and deeply unfair. >> i result just close by saying in the past week, i've actually

chatting with a friend in new york and he told me about several outrages that had popped up that week, that i had missed because they just come at so fast a clip now. but the first one was the principal down in miami who lost his job for putting up a totally innocuous facebook comment on a miami herald news story about the mckinney pool party. he sided with the cops. i happen to disagree with that opinion, too but don't think you should get fired for it. there was no vulgarity involved. no racism involved. just a comment. lost his job as a principal. and then there's the guy the scientist of late who made the somewhat awkward joke about women in labs falling in love with scientists scientists and men falling in love with women. imagine that, a scientist who makes an awkward joke about sex.

but he -- i believe he is a nobel prize winner. >> doesn't matter. >> very, very high up and just being hounded and hounded and hounded and hounded and it's like these things -- i hadn't even heard about that one they happen so fast, even though i'm paying take because i wrote a book you. can't keep track of them and it makes me sad to think of how many people are hurt in their own communities and in states and maybe doesn't even make it to the national news level all the time, who are losing jobs and losing livelihoods and their families are hurt by this kind of thing. that ain't a fun america, and i think we would like to bring a little bit of that down a notch. >> it is ruining our campuses, poisoning our politics it is toxic to our culture and it is picking america less free and fun. that's i would we wrote our book and would loaf to take some questions for a couple minutes here. if you have any.

better be good bus -- because chance is here. >> i look forward to reading the book. will i learn techniques how to overcome the classic "end of discussion" tactics. >> we offer advice and we do not claim to have a quick fix because this is a cultural shift. >> in fact the name of the tight -- the title of the chapter is "advice sort of." >> we offer some for different types of people, conservatives liberals moderates but we do also say one of the tactics i'm not sure how to bring it together but one tactic is, remembering that the outrage mob is actually quite small and we have this incredible silent majority of people who would just like everyone to chill out a little bit. but we very rarely come together. so we thought about a coalition to chill the heck out that we could gather most americans into and fight back -- >> a gent -- get a huge petition of people literally just saying,

we don't care. >> please sign this petition. >> carry on. the owners of chick-fil-a don't agree with gay marriage? we don't care. we'll eat delicious chicken they're not running for president. that's part of it. >> but getting that coalition together helped. i think guy will agree with me when i say the other thing we can definitely do to help is buy another copy of "end of discussion." >> most important thing to do. >> we did write it in such a way we wanted it to be approachable for our friends friends and frenemies on the left and moderates who can pick it up and go i can do not agree willwith all these opinions but i did not hate this experience win generous amazon viewer put its are not monsters. >> that's an actual quote wheel. put that on the book. they're not monitors, raves

amazon review reviewer, john. thank you john. >> really, i think that half of the battle in having discussion is actually starting that discussion with someone who disagrees with you actively, and so we did out in want to alienate those people with "end of discussion" and wanted to offer something they could pick up and go, interesting. >> these might sound like a self-serving answer -- iit is true. >> but we didn't want to write on outraged book about outrage. that sort of defeats the whole purpose. and so we're not going to fix our terrible national conversation by just preaching to our own side. really in some ways typifies the problem. pounding the table and say this sucks and this isn't fair and look our awful the other side is on this, and everyone gets all angry and then what? we really did approach writing this book in a way to make it accessible and fun to read. we have heard some good

feedback. we tried to be funny. we nailed some circumstances but succeeded apparently in others because we wanted the back to be enjoyable as much as it can be on a topic this serious and if it's sort of this joyless slog, like hillary clinton's campaign, no one is going to want to read that and we want people to -- who don't necessarily see eye-to-eye with us to pick up the book, get right out of the gate a stance of, these people are not here to like totally try to convert me ideologically. we're wright -- we're right you're wrong get with the program, itch you want to come to our site, that's great but that's not the burn of "end of discussion. "there's a guy who followed me on twitter a few weeks ago and he is a self-described -- i want to get this right -- lgbt ecosocialist athiest activist. whatever that all is. >> sounds like our audience. >> i'm like, this is not our

audience. ment he would debating whether or not he would buy the book, and finally i wore him down with my relentless promotion and he preordinaries it on amazon, and then it hadn't arrived quickly enough and he really wanted to read the book so he went, i believe to a barnes & noble and bought the book now. he has two copies, which is awesome. and he is now read the entire book. and he tweeted back his review of "end of discussion." disagree with some things. you didn't give your side enough criticism. fair. he said overall really important topic it was fun to read and you guys are really right about the core thesis and he then started fighting with fellow lefties on twitter who were attacking our book, having not read it, but he has read and it is not one of our people so to speak and we're like, yes! if an lgbt ecosocialist athiest can read "end of discussion" and

not hate it, that's good. that's promising. next question. >> i have a followup question. to your point about buying more books, i'll do that. how do you suggest sending them to for your frenemies other than in a plain brown wrapper. >> we did give permission in the preface, you're a nonconservative and you have this book and your out on public transit and you don't want your fellow public transit enthusiasts to judge you just take the jacket off so you don't have to explain yourself to your friends. but, no, we would -- what we recommend is if you're a conservative -- we're conservatives -- the book mostly read by conservatives. one of the things that is -- one of the best things about liberals at their core, is at least their professed values of opened mindedness and tolerance and love the coexist bumper

stickers. i think challenging them politely and nicely with their own values, if you're a tolerant open minded person, which you fancy yourself to be, here's a book that is not so infuriating that you will read two pages and have to put it down. it makes some points about the state of our national dialogue would you do me a favor and read this and in return, give me a book from your side that you like know do and then do an exchange and talk about it. that's what we should be doing in america. >> i have a question. so all this outrage comes from millenials nowdays -- >> from mat. >> millen reallies. drew believe -- millenials. do you believe that's a quality of the generation or have their minds been coopted by the elites. >> it is -- the question was with millenials, -- millenials

are often deeply engagessed in the outrage industry and whether that's inharen quality they have or whether they have been taken in by their higher education and perhaps can be turn at some point. i have to say as a grandma of the millenals because i'm the oldest possible millenial you can have-i'm right to cutoff. >> your so old. >> i can lecture. it is differ appointing to see a generation that in many ways is so entrepreneurial and interested in thinking outside the box so often they're willing to say well, yeah, free speech is great but not like that speech. and so i hope that is a maturity issue and that it can be something that we talk to each other about and can be worked out. i also think that with young people in particular, stripping them of entertainment choices is not a great way to convince them that this is the right path to be going down, because americans love fun.

young people in particular like their fun. and let's be serious. college campuses especially, liberals are puritans. the fancy themselves radicals but are puritans. you cannot watch mainstream movies. we won't be having that come median -- >> american sniper has attempted to be banned on several college campuses. >> pieces of modern art have been teams too edgy. >> art. >> and liberals have pushed them off. i think that kind of behavior doesn't necessarily sit well with millenials but there does need to be a discussion about what free speech actually means and what it means when you say sure free speech is great but not that speech. that ain't free speech. >> by the way, millenial college student, do you think it is a better experience in your four years at college to not have chris rock come and perform? to not have jerry seinfeld?

was that make your college experience better is fewer and fewer viewpoints? how do we get to the point where there's this assumption among too many college students it's their right not to be subjected to any ideas or people that might maim make them feel uncomfortable? they the opposite of what this ought to be and we do discuss in the book this increasing trend toward disinviting commencement speakers because of ideological disagreements, like it's condoleezza rice, the first black woman secretary of state was basically disinvited to rutgers because about 200 students and faculty raised a ruckus -- >> christine leggard, head of to the imf and economist too conservative for -- >> all-girl school. >> i have some hope that young

people and millenials, if you look at the polling there's so many ways in which they live their lives boldly and want to have nothing to do with there is 30 year career and one specific job ask want to jump around and true knew things and technology allows them to do that. i would hope that they look at free speech in the same way or start looking at this outrage industry and go this does not comport with the way i'll live the rest of my life and i want to live bolder in this way too. >> one more question? >> you mentioned at the beginning about joan rivers. we should all become joan rivers because she was unapologetic. but do we see any kind of hope in hollywood because mel brooks could never make blaze saddles today. and he is genius. so, there is anyone that is bold enough to actually stand up and do something like that?

nowdays? >> one of the things -- this is sort of a darker note -- win "end of discussion" bud we did reference the "charlie hebdo" massacre and paris and remember the sony hack and in the north korea threats about this ridiculous terrible comedy involving -- >> its wasn't that terrible. >> pretty bad. >> middling. >> that's generous. anyway we'll discuss this end his husband later i'm sure. there was a weird moment where you had hollywood putting out a bro comedy, this tin pot dictatorship across the world saying we're offended by this and we're going to bomb movie theaters if you show it, and a bunch of theaters said, oh, that dictator doesn't like the movie and they just pulled the movie and that was a very disturbing moment because i was like, all right, since when are we letting

crazy tin pot autocrats determine our comedy choiceses a free people? >> that was a devastating week for me. if americans will not stand up for stoner comedies they will stand up for nothing. this is what we cherish people. so it was a tough week. >> there was a backlash, and finally it was released, and i watched the movie on principle. i watched the entire thing on principle, and. >> as you should have. >> exactly. so maybe in -- george clooney was very outopinion and said, tried to get a bunch of heavy hitters in hollywood to stand for speech, stand for art stand for expression, and very few people wanted wanted to join him because i think less so because they were worried about bombs or whatever the north korean regime -- they were more nervous about what to the sony e-mails might have said about them. so everyone is sort of this implicit threat of blackmail and just a very, very toxic week for speech. >> i will say what does help

these days for people who are coming up in the entertainment industry is the diversity of outlets. this fact you can put a tv show on knelt flex or hulu -- netflix or hulu or do a web series on youtube. those outlets didn't exist before and you can even people who are very popular somebody like a chris rock can start something outside of the major companies that is a little edgier and can do stuff like that. there are opportunities for that and like i said, that was a ray of hope, cease these guys stand up for this. this conversation has been going on in comedian circles for quite some time because they felt this sort of hemming them in. so i'm glad to see that and i think a lot hoff those guys are going to start getting together, and women guys and women are going to start getting together and perhaps pushing the envelope a little bit more on purpose. that's what louse with c. k. did in his last snl moll monologue. i'm not allowed to be offensive?

watch this. >> he days mon olog, devoce sigh defending child molester. >> definitely about child molesters. >> and he was pushing boundaries and making a point to do it, and one thing we loved a few weeks ago, chris pratt the star of the new jurassic mega hit he issued a preapology, satirical preall for anyone he might mind during the promotional tour, and skewering the end of discussion culture and that's the spirit we trade to capture in "end of discussion. "sometimes the best thing to do is ridicule these people, because they are so serious about -- so self-righteous and popping the bubble, nope, we're not buying it. and with a smirk and occasional snark is worthwhile because we are americans and we will snark. thank you all for coming, we reside like to sign books and

more books and thanks to barnes & noble for hosting us. [applause] >> you're watching booktv on c-span2 2. 48 hours of nonfiction authors and books every weekend. book tv, television for serious readers. >> here's a look at becomes being published this week. in "undocumented" a tracing of path from undocumented immigrant to graduate at princeton university. the presidency of dwight eisenhower and his relationship with richard nixon in "the president and the apprentice." national security consultant to

the "new york times" william ain argues the use of drones and mass data collection does more to undermine national security than improve it in "unmanned." also being released this week a history of writing by matthew battles. in "dancing with the devil in the city of god" the "associated press" correspondent recounts brazil's capital city during the leadup to the hosting of the 2014 world cup. and scientists discuss how they believe quantum mechanics can explain he origins flow "life on the edge." >> you're watching booktv, coming up next stephen wit t recounts the beginnings of the digital pirating of music which transform the recording industry

and how he obtained and listened to music. >> welcome everybody, thank you for coming. really appreciate your coming out on a wednesday night in nashville. first thing i'll ask you to do is turn off any noisemaking device you have with you. a phone a small animal, child. because you don't want to be that person whose phone goes off during this fabulous presentation, and besides there's nothing anymore interesting going on out there than we're about to find out about in here. i think you can agree. i want to thank ingalls for donating this fabulous cheese. if you have not had any yet you

should definitely do that. it's free. and you should also have free wine because that's free, too. and i want to thank the c-span team for filming this tonight. and if you wait a few days, you'll be fortunate enough to go to our web site and hear a pod cast of stephen's talk and hear very interesting and fascinating questions you will ask in a little bit. and we are beyond excited to have stephen here with his new book holiday pow music got free" this is something i had no idea. i just knew it was where it is. on my phone and on my ipod. i didn't know how that happened. stephen traces the secret history of digital music piracy from germany to north carolina, yes, right here in north carolina to the highrises of mid-town manhattan and finally

into the darkest recesses of the internet. stephen has written a thrilling account depicting the moment in history when ordinary lives became forever entwined with the world online. when suddenly all the music ever recorded was available for free. stephen's book is an irresistible never before told story of greeds cunning genius and deceit. how music got free isn't just a story of the music industry. it's a must-read history of the internet itself. please help me welcome stephen witt. [applause] >> thank you so much for all showing up today and i want to thank malaprops in particular for hosting this event. it's very nice. this is my first time in nashville so i'm pleased to be

here. as cindy said i am stephen witness t to and the book is "how music got free. "a height of music fire si and i was a serial music pirate. i started in college in 1997 with a two-hard drive and -- by the end of semester i filled my drive with paste song. this was the first time in history that was on 'o. if i showed up in '1995 or '49 i wouldn't have been able to dot. there was a tectonic shift in the way distribution of media was happening and month most people who figured another it it was teenagers and college kids. so the that was an excising time be alive. ten years later i hat 100,000 pirates mp s and if you chewed minimum library it would take a year and a half to listen to the whole thing. so i became a culp paleosol hoarder of digital music. one day in i was looking at this

library and i asked myself, how did this music get here in the first place? how is this actually snob and then i began to investigate the. i found the most astonishying thing. almost the all files i had to be traced back to three people. one of the guy was as man named karl brannenburg brilliant german inventor and spent his life investigating the appropriates of the human ear and how to actually delete frequencies that were inaudible to it. in this way he came up with something we now cull the pp3 encoder which has the able to take information on a compact disk and shrink its by 90% with very little loss in audio quality. he was totally unable to monetize this invention he was locked out of the marketplace and in desperation in 1995 he posted i for prepublic download to his web site. within a couple year this priorities got ahold of commit

he made hundreds of millions of dollars from intellectual property licensing, gut the irony is that the whole fortune what build on the greatest wave of copyright infringement the world had ever seen. the second guy was a guy named doug morris. and he was a powerful movie executive in the mid-90s in time warner and started to real a's the future of pop music was rap so decided to sign all the major aways. tupak shakur, dr. dre all those famous names from the past, snoop dogg and this music was very controversial. bill bennett who had been reagan's odd czar didn't like and you went after it. they bought shares in time warner and showed up to shareholder meet examination protested, demanding the executives of the company read the rap lyrics aloud. nieceless toty say executives refused to do so within a couple of month morris was fired.

but hi picked himself up and dust outside off and again one hoff the great second acts of the american music business, signing the same rappers and cornering the market. in 2000 help signed the largest recording industry contract and made $200 million over the next ten years. when he did that he was presiding over an empire in decline. that was because of a third guy really the most fascinating guy of all his name wag del glover, compact desk manufacturing facility worker at the kings mountain plant here in north carolina. he worked the packaging line so all of the discs would come in a virgin state past him every day. about a million disks in a single day and because of all of universal's big signings, all of this music what his hit fingertips. the devised devised a method to smuggle it out through a cab cabal of

similar leak are scott got 2,000 disks authorities plant over ten years ripped them to mp3 and uploaded them to secret sites the group ran. within hours the fuchs will be found on peer to peer server and could be found on ipods around to the globe within a couple of days. so if you ever had music on your hard drive you weren't sure where it came from, probably literally came through this guy's hands. so it's kind of a fascinating story, thought. i spent five years researching and it put it together and it was a lot of fun to write. i thought what i reside do tonight is read you some selections and then if you want at any time just jump in with questions or anything you want to know. so you can treat it more like a conversation and less like a craig find boring. so i'll start at the beginning with the guy mentioned before. the german inventor.

brannenburg did not possess a commanding physical presence. he was very tall but he hunched and his body launch was erratic. he constantly rocked on his heels, lurching his body forward and back good when he talked he nodded his head in gentle circles. his hair was long and kept too long and his nervous perpetual smile, exposed teague that were uneven and small. his wire framed glasses sad over dark highs and stray hair protruded like whiskers from hipping scraysling beard. he joke quietly in long, grammatically person sentences punctuate evidence with short sharp intakes of breath help was polite and overwhelmingly kind and always tried his best to put people at ease, but this only made things more awkward. when he talked he dwelled on capital matters and perhaps sensing boredom on the part of the listener, a ram belowing

discourse with weakly delivered unfunny jokes. in his personality reunited two powerful forces, the skepticism of the engineer and the stuffy nation specific conservatism they called -- again by chopping awe. his fill fer bank worked on sound, the say way a prism works on light. the rule was a grid of time and frequency consisting of microscopic snipth -- snip mets of sound the audio version of pixeled he told the computer how to simplify these audio pixels. zwicker was a guy who spend 40 years studying the weaknesses of the human ear.

first, he showed that human hearing was best at pitch the total range of the human boys. and registers before that hearing degraded, particularly higher on the scale. you could affine sewer bits to the extreme end of the spectrum. second he showed that tone that were glows pitch tended to cancel each other out in particular, lower tones overrite higher ones so if you were digitizing music with overlambening instrumentation say violin and cello at the same time you can assign fewer bits to the violin. thursday, swinger had shown the auto simple cancelled out noise following a loud click, so if i you were digitizing simple ball crashing and he showed the awer to system cancelled out noise prior to a loud click. this meant -- this is because it

took a few more seconds for the ear to till process what it was hearing, what it was sensing and the process could go be disrupted bay sudden john ruff jury onrush of louder noise and you can assign fewer bits before the beat. >> did he actually write the software that this is or did he have developers that he worked with? >> bid the middle of '86 he himself had written rudimentary computer code that could make this work. it sounded pret bad. he dep pew identifiesed five other people to work on the project with him. the that some cuss. by the mid-90s probably more like 20 people. development of the final finished product wasn't complete until 49. -- 94. he relied on other people's

techniques and those people held patents. >> is this guy -- the -- did he make any mo? >> we'll get to that. >> let's just jump right to that guy. his name is dell glover, worked at the compact disk marring plant. the big problem what getting the cds rut. universal was ware the stuff was valuable. how would he do it? at the end of each shift protocol instructed that glover bring the overstocked disk to a plastics grinder where they were destroyed. the grounder was same do is, refrigerator size machine paint it heavy industry blue, a feed flog in the front leading to a sir rate it nidal sill len dear, the disks were killed in the slot and they're were destroyed.

he warm of watched as the disks were destroyed in the gears of me machine and over time became to realize he was staring into the black home in the universal security regime. the grinder was efficient far too simple. the machine had no memory anden rate node records. it existed outside of the plant's digital inventory management process. if you were instructs to destroy 24 overstock directions and only 23 made into it the feed slot no one in conditioning would ever know. so he would take off surgical glove wild holding an overtook ilks done on the way to the grounder then through one motion he could wrap the glove around the disk and tie it off. then pretending to prime the grinder he could open up its control panel hit waste repository ore fuse box falling a quick look around to make sure he was alone he could secret the gloved different into a cranny of the machine and grinder else and at the end of the shift he could return to the machine and

grab the disk from its hiding spot. that still left the security guards and their wants. the security regime had sort of like a customs way stations. you swiped your employee key card and one out of every five soar would turn red and you were wandded with a metal detecting juan that could pick up the thin aluminum core of the tis dusks. glover knew that packaging line employees like him were especially likely to be targeted. he had been selected nor random screenings hundreds of times but that is the guards had been watching glover lexer watched them to. one day by accident he learned something interests. he typically wore sneakers but on this day he was wearing steel towed work boots. he his feet were scan and let off wine.

the guard itself he hey city toed and the confirmed he did and the guard just waved him through. they had not made him take off his boots. had not at behind down or asked him any difficult questions. he set off a wand and there where are no consequences. the determined the wanding was a pantomime intended to intimidate would-be thieves and secure guards were just as bored. if glover could fit the october pact disk inside of his board he could get them to out on his own, but they wouldn't fit. this disc were just too bit. stick the sealed of the idea was planned and over the next few months as he patiently waited in line each day to leave the planet at the end of his shift he came to see it. belt buckles. they were the signature fashion accessories of small-town north carolina. everyone at the plant wore them.

the white guys wore big oval meds dealns if the stars and bars. black guys had ones -- the hispanic guys wore person themed cowboy buckles. even the women wore them. the buckles always set off the wand but the guards never asked you to take them off. hide the disc inside the glove hide the glove inside the grinder, retrieve the glove and tuck entitle your waistbands, simp your belt tight position your oversizees bell buckle just in front hover the disk, toes you beginningerred and you get flags, play very cool when you said off the wand. glover finally saw it. this was how the smuggling was done. so that sort of how he got 2,000cds out of the plant. he had a number of confederates and would meet these guys in late-night rendezvous at like a

gas station or somewhere else, and pay them. he dep pew tiesed a bunch of people. he got promoted to a assistant lineman or some role and could schedule shifts for his best leakers for all the fantastic material that was coming through the plant. it really got started in 2001 and the big hits were eminem, 50-cent kanye west, everybody that you have heard from that period went through there is plant and came out through him. once he got home, he would rip them to the mp3 and then upload them to the secret cabal of leakers. the cabal was called, rabid neurosis and had been around since 1996. and they infiltrated almost every aspect of the music industry supply chain air. that had guys in the unite kingdom who were getting prerelease company 's to review, leaking them to -- they had a couple of italian guys who ran music promotion business and they were understand sony music. guys in japan would go to retail

record store and buy things because they would show up on the shelfs a little earlier than they would in the u.s. and that anywhere roar time advantage was enough for them to be first. over 11 years they leaked 25,000 albums and naturally this brought the attention of the fbi. really, though you asked, was there any check in molt vacation? for most of the guys there was not. there was not a lot of money in this. they were doing it almost for thrill. they were teenage boys andlift. glover though, was an exception. he realized that by going into the -- there were other medias that were doing the same thing. to supreme leaking oscar movie skrineers and people ripping television shows and cracking games months hate of release date and posting them online. her realize is this material was valuable. the leaks were not to be sold,

but he didn't follow that ethos and started billing a home dvd duplicator that ripped thousands of disks as once, and then started sell them out of the trunk of his car and eventually this bootlegging operation got elaborate. and i'll read you just a little bit about that. the movie man was black in addition to shell by and kings mountain he branch elfed out into charlotte. he moved 300 disks in a good week. that was $1,500 cash no taxes. the price of dvd spindles was dropping rapidly and a supply of movies came for free and his margins were selling as fast is a business pockets deal. happened was intense. he was unable to meet it on his own. he began to move disks on consignment through local barber sho shops temp beginning of each week he would drop off 400 discs a piece to 300 bashers. those barbers move to the disand

can he would return to collect his share of the profits. $4,550 a spindle o. 900 didn't a week per shop. his best salzman made more selling bootleg movies than cutting high. supply came from a variety of sources as the infiltration of the movie business was player rode. movie releaseing groups moved hard into the home market. they tracked at the dim september nation of oscar screeners to the academy and unfairly managed to score rip offered the leading contenders long before their official home release dates. advancing technology was revolutioning in the 'oprocess of coming, boot legging movies from within the theater. coming operations could get sophisticatessed. synchronizing a video feed from one feeder with a high call quality audio feed. when canadaan authorities --

arrested a cammer with his child,. they discovered the camera in the diaper bag. practically anything that aired was captured on dvr and edited for commercials come pressed to a manageable size and distributedded within minutes. often they schooled the network affiliates. production of he spire fourth season of the wire made it to my pirate underground before any of the episodeses ever aired in another legendary case, an australian scene pirate realizes that episodeses of the sew piano were tragedy transmits to local stakes from los angeles for future adairs they sent at a beenquist different but he was able tona snatch the episodes

from the with as. del glover had access to this more and. after years leaking his connections were unrivaled. that edge -- the edge that gave him over other boot legers translated directly into profits on the street. sometimes even supplied his competitors, carefully dribbling out prerelease media to his friends only after he had bled his local patch dry. word ol' mouth fueled business and trade at the bash her shop nourished in sad 2001 he woke up to a dozen customers parked on the lawn outside his house waiting for him to rip the disks. hi neighbors thought he was a drug dealer. actually it was better than that. his cost of goods sold was almost zero soressed it from web sites knock from a meth cook or mexican cartel. dvds ran 25 corrects each and even once the barbers took the cult the profit margin were over 50 percent.

if you wants to buy madden football for play station, it would cost you've 60 bucks retail and you would have to camp outside the store when you wide. glover would sell toil you for ten. a copy of adobe photo shop costs 400 decide. glover would sell to it your for 20 including the cracks and patches you need gist it to work. a copy of auto cad would run you $1,500 retail. glover would sell to it you for 40. many of his best customers came from inside the plants and the ones hoe trusted most he had a bert deal. for 20 bucks a month you could build an unlimited description and didn't even need the disks. he set up his own site on a home serve, and once you bought a password you could download everything you wanted and you could find every movie that came out on dvd and the latest copies of games marks software and more. if you wanted something he didn't haver posted a request and he founded for you within

the hour. video on demand -- this was 2004 -- was a at the text nothing to the future. wife knew glover it was here, now. he was running his own private netflix out of his house. that was his motivation. primarily. >> sounds like you were able to interview him? >> i found glover through this fbi prosecution so there is a large government database of everyone who was ever been prosecutedded by the federal government and probably been by now three hundred to 400 just against pirates. i downloaded a hundred of those looking for the juiciest cases when i found his i thought, i have to write about this guy. he was patient zero, by far the leading music leaker of all time. just the best at it. just because of his inside access and tech nick cam skills and so this created -- it turned ran bib neurosis into a leading group. they were able to riyadh people

from all over the world. >> wherees hi now? >> he pleaded get and then agreed to testify against his co-conspirators. the feds were interested in this guy who ran rabid neurosis, that was his screen name, ka. all they had was glover who talked to him on the cell phone once a week. glover didn't know his name. but he thought he could identify the guy via his ip address and various interactions so as glover was preparing a defense he agreed to testify against this guy in exchange store sentencing leniencies, the feds thought wait as guy in hollywood hills, carr, and went to trial in 2010. but cass seem beat the charge cass exonerated, found not guilty. glover testified at the trial so got sentencing leniency and served three months in a federal prison three months total. and he got out the 2010, send probation, now off probation and works at the freightliner truck

manufacturing facility in kings mountain installing grilles on the front hoff the truck. >> how much time did you spend with him? >> i found him in 2011. i sent him a facebook message. wasn't sure hi was the right guy. i thought there can't be that mean del glovers in the world. there will three that and his grandfather were named that. but i tracked him down, kind of fit the geographic profile fit the right age range, thing i would send him a fake maybage and the next day hell called me on my cell phone weapon had four or five phone conversations. came down here to shelby several times to interview meet with him, and toured the facility of the plant where he worked, which is now empty and shut. it shut down in 2009 and all the machines were sold to lattin america. part of the hollowing out of the manufacturing base down there. six years later it's still empty. no one -- you do anything,

300,000 square foot manufacturing facility but their internet age so nobody needs to make anything anymore. i'll read the last except and then open up for questions. >> shut down in 2007. but the guys who did this war real a addict to doing this and couldn't stop. >> where is napster in this? >> this actual after napster for the most part. napster grew occupy out the same underworld. both sean fanning and sean parker met in an mp3 chat channel trading rooms. fanning was 18 when he wrote the program. parker wasp is the and was dep pew tiesed to go out and be a --

depaul -- they went into deep underground channels when they got to college. the -- i emphasized glover and other guys but napster was huge. glover starts leaking again after he quit the group to another group. somehow cali got word and he handbeen able to give up either. heard you're back in the game, he said. i am to. the new group will be downsized to only the most trusted members. you, me, dockery maybe saunders we'll continue to leak but our group will be so secret it won't have a name. we spent years building this network and have access to best

sites on the globe. we can't give it up now. glover was skeptical. not for their firms time he wonder period what motivated cali to do this. before he could point to the social recognition of his online peers. that was somethingor in never personally sought but in other words how it might have value to a certain person. now there went that. only a sense of personal satisfaction. both tried to quit the scene two different times but found themselves unable. years later glover could not find in the...

it was a secret matter tradition. his graduation and grover told pauly he would keep an eye out for him. about a week before their release. a week later they came out in 2007. the day after the release glover went to work at the edc plant. he added double shift lasting the entire night was.

starting at six in the evening he worked six hours regular pay for six hours overtime and finished at six in the morning on september 13 at as he was preparing to leave a co-worker pull them aside. there was someone out there the co-worker said someone i've never seen before and they are hanging around your truck. in the pilot before dawn rover walked through the park and not. he saw three men strangers to did indeed seem to be staking out his truck. as he approached the vehicle he pulled the key fob out of the pocket and the man stared at him but took no action. when you press the remote could truck and the manager there guns guns. they were from the county sheriff's office. dan found him the fbi was currently searching his house and they had been sent to retrieve him. he looked at the man. he asked if he was under arrest. they said he was not that they were going to accompany him on the drive back to his house. 20 long minutes followed on the

road. arriving home he found an ugly scene. in his front yard for a half-dozen fbi agents wearing bulletproof vests accompanied by a s.w.a.t. team. the neighbor did like the police was yelling at them to leave rovers family alone. they were yelling at her to go back inside. when he walked through his front door he noticed it had been kicked in. he's found his girlfriend karen barrett holding their infant son on her face a look of bewilderment and there were tears in her eyes. special agent peter -- and introduce himself. i've been been looking for you for a long time. 45 years. your friend has spilled his guts. you had better start talking. grover asked for it as the eyes search warrant. he shouted to him. grover rather closely helping the terms of the word to an extent his vehicle. if they did in and the fbi searched the cd player and find

what they were probably looking for the leaked copy of kanye west graduation. thank you so much for showing up. if there are any more questions i am happy to answer them. [applause] >> so you fast-forward where places have been shut dow

it's great for emerging artists. four years ago he was just releasing music in his bedroom producing and recording and stripping it from a laptop and last year he headlined at the barclays center new york city in front of a crowd of 85,000 people and that's not possible without the internet and it's not possible without file-sharing and distribution.

>> infect people to get a cheap. >> he could preview it for nothing so classically the model was you got your music manager you went around to the labels and they gave you in advance based on future royalties. based on what they thought was good. they were the gatekeepers. and that was not a very effective model necessarily. the public should decide what's good not the recording studio. so it was disruptive and in some ways music now is better than it was during the peak of the consolidation label days. in 1998 and 99 that's when they made the most money so it was not a great time for music necessarily. rock was terrible and rap was good but rock was awful and pop was unbearably bad. now we have a much more interesting age and i think the

music is much more interesting. it's not clear to me that large profitable concerns actually spur great culture. >> so when a guy like that once he reaches that point to see them start being able to sell stuff or is he making money from touring? >> is making money from touring. he played the event of a paid him about 3000 -- $300,000. c is at a point where it's not very much more popular? [inaudible] >> maybe i'm not very literate in terms of this but i don't understand how youtube makes money because take someone like me i can type something in and listen to it in most of us can listen to it for free. rarely does someone say here's the opportunity to buy. how does youtube make money lacks. >> ecn add.

>> some of them sometimes but you can skip the ads. >> you can skip the ads but that's where the money come from from. let's say i go home tonight and i take a led zeppelin cd and rip it and post it on youtube. youtube knows i committed copyright infringement. there's a robot that will scan everything is uploaded at the site and at the site and i think they get something like $1000 per video each minute and find anything that is on it. once they find it they have two or three options. they kemple it, they can leave it in certain markets and did

if you can get a bunch of people to sign up that will save the future of the music industry. apple music just debuted last monday they bought beads and then beats tanked so they closed

beats and now they are repurposing it as apple music. google has something like music team in september. you have spotify and many other players in the space title. so since 2008 the interest of the technologist and the rights holders have become aligned and the user who was supposed to be the empowered person in the early era of personal computing is the person from whom you extract value so you become their customer. >> is spotify the record companies are sharing a lot less of the profits than they did with cds. >> that's up to the managers and the musicians to figure out area area. >> question. in researching this book did you meet some from a music industry that very much regretted they didn't have on line options

available that it where the horses essentially left the barn? >> the one i interviewed the most is the ceo of sun entertainment. there's a big three of the music industry sony universal and time warner and at one time or another he never expressed any regrets and he said we kept trying to debut these music stores and they would fail so they had something like press play something called blue matter. they were badly designed and generated no revenue. they put it in an itunes store and they were a little late to the game but they weren't that late and it didn't solve anything. i don't think i ever heard that exact regret that you are saying saying. i think there are bigger regret with a lot of industry people i talk about in this book is they decided to sue their end-user their end customers through a program they called project hubcap which was suing the

average person who was on life wire and they filed 50,000 random people on the internet and they won almost every case but it made them look completely awful. that's the thing i heard a lot of regrets about. >> have you run into any musicians who feel is just not worth it to be a musician in this day and age because let's face it musicians aren't necessarily all the best business people. >> no one goes into the music industry -- i should rephrase this. it's not a great business decision in the first place to become a musician. [laughter] even in the height of the music industry we are not competing. peer amid economics where there are few people at the top is made a lot of money but the vast

majority people make nothing. art was along around a long time before commerce was in music can survive for decades. having said that it doesn't help our culture of musicians kim any money at all. it's unfair if they can't get the work so it's a really tough balance. your question did i meet anyone who said don't start in music tracks i did meet some inevitable like sound engineers who were like you know what there's not enough money in it and is too much of a headache. i'm going to work for studio or something. item tank i've met too many musicians who have said i'm just giving up they can't make any money. i'm sure there are musicians that feel that way but i just didn't talk to any. he. >> a lot of people can make decent money without going to a studio. >> did you have a question?

there were a lot of people there who helped me improve my pros and my writing style hopefully. >> in "the new yorker" had read some of it. >> a thousand words were an adaptation from "the new yorker." >> i haven't read your book yet but i'm sure you mentioned it in the book. can you shed a little light on what you discussed earlier? >> the fourth character in the book is a guy named alan ellis who founded the predecessor to a gigantic private torrent site.

he thought of it in 2004 in his bedroom and shared an apartment with six other people. he's a university student majoring in computer science at a mid-tier university in middlesbrough can the united kingdom. originally this would be fun. within a year he had the recorded most of the recorded history of humanity's cultural output for the last 50 years and very high fidelity. he was actually an audio quality snob and created a lot of demand for him because all these guys are used to hang around at the record stores and complain about music at the movie high fidelity were on line doing this. he ran out

i tried and failed to figure out who they were. last monday at 12:30 p.m. or so it got ripped and posted there. [laughter] >> that was going to be my next question. [laughter] you are writing about what happened in the same thing is happening in the book business obviously. so how are you approaching that in your career as a writer and a journalist and how are you monetizing? >> it's a good question. i don't get paid to tour. you guys are here for free. i had to give you whine and cheese just to get you to show up. [laughter] acid did problem for authors down the road.

it's fairly cumbersome and large. this book is ordered kilobytes as an e-book meaning i could fit it and i 5.25-inch floppy disk. they are easy to pirate. they're very small. the book authority faces competition before for a long time an institution called the library. you are all able to get and share books. [laughter] it actually did quite well and the library really help them. i support your local library but it does create a risk. it's possible the book will be torn. i tried it myself just to try it out. it's fun to pirate yourself. i recommend it. [laughter] >> normally you are on bookstore tour but i show there's more

public speaking engagements in universities. >> i'm a journalist in iraq respect the integrity of the profession so google calls and says we will give you five grand to speak at our campus especially compromising. i can be critical about google. it would be easy if you are a fiction writer but who is going to pay a fiction writer? >> i don't have a position anywhere. i'm fresh out of ideas. >> a lot of these news programs can't be controversial. >> of size than a problem. i think a few publishers are trying limited experiments were you paid 20 bucks a month and you get access to all the books on the site.

personally i'm going to try to keep my stuff off of that model for as long as possible. it is far more profitable for me me -- for you to buy my book then free to license it although i know when you can pirate it creates. >> if you publish a book in a traditional way and sell a grenade and? >> is the same way the music industry works. you show up with in my case a proposal. you get an agent. they shop around at the publishing houses and there's an auction. you get paid in advance for world sees for the future of the book. i don't make anything until they advance comes back and that's the same way a musician works. you get your download tape and they listen to it and they say it sounds great and break out of 3 million-dollar deal. and i talk about this in the

book. it's kind of a weird system. the person who was thinking maybe we should do something else with steve jobs. he tried to hire doug in 2009 any of the different proposal. he was like get rid of the advance copies. who will get artists to post up on the platform and give them nothing in advance. there is a 50% royalty rate. which right now for musician can be as low as 8% on the album. it were the publishers in the label there's an enormous cut that but they're probably not entitled to any more. >> there were 23 overstocks cds or something like that of certain printings. >> there were literally a

million on an album so m&m show they will have to pry 1 million compact discs. now along the way someone is going to get a hair on the cd or drop something or folders so they had to print over stock. the print admin for a manager protocol for the overstock were supposed to be destroyed and it crunches it up in a big metal cylinder but as i said they figured out various ways -- there's no way for this alone should do no. it didn't have a receipt slot. they just dumped it and crushed it so if you are instructed to destroy 24 discs and you only destroy 23 you get one out. >> i understand what you're saying.

>> if they only get one they can turn it into three and then they get lead early millions. they just need one cd. that's the power of data. does that make sense? >> why do they overstock to begin with? >> they have a production line. >> they overstock it and sometimes the overstock is more than they need. >> yeah create. >> why is it different than the consumer college kid buying a cd and uploading it himself? >> because they were getting them weeks and months ahead of the release dates. these guys were racing each other. you've got a lot of credit few are able to do that. it's an ample duration of the music industry supply chain and the debris can get the more likely you are to be first. the guys they had inside the plant were there for years.

>> do they need to find the actual guy doing it in order to shut it down? >> without it they can't do it. they tried for

i'm going to get stephen the chair and he's going to sign books for me and is going to sign books for you. these right here are not yours. [laughter] these are mine. but we will sell you as many as you want up there at the registers were the green lights are an seasonable sign them for you and thanks for coming. e., drink and buy books. [applause] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

here's a look at some books written by the two cleared candidates for president. declared candidates for president are you

now on booktv and the encore presentation of booknotes. boats are prize-winning historian sub i've appeared in 2002 to discuss the revolutionary war room its inception to the victory in the 13 colonies. his book is called "the american revolution" a history. >> gordon s. c-span: gordon s. wood, author of "the american revolution: a history," when did you first get interested in history? >> guest: that's a good question. probably in college. i was a history major. i went to tufts and somehow or other just always had a yearning