the medieval concept of the heroic quest -- the quest think of bail wolf with the death of arthur to reinvent the quest in the us citizens in irony c.s. lewis and j.r.r. tolkein seek to look at the epic hero. why? why do the two authors explore the most powerful trend in their culture? part of the answer lies in the battlefields of france. there that some soldiers saw their virtues in the f - - officers it was there according to teeeighteen the inspiration for his character ochered. where was the idea from the comet in the first place?

how many if you like grading papers? and to find a blank sheet of paper to find these in a hole in the ground he just wrote the words he doesn't know why. ended said better figure out what audits are like. but his own account is a reflection of the ordinary soldiers steadfast while suffering and though whole is in the ground of the front-line trench many members of the expeditionary force and joined the most intensive campaigns the british army shows a

remarkable resilience. they did not suffer a breakdown the is the lure of the rings it is not unlike that transformation j.r.r. tolkein must have witnessed with fellow soldiers. it was turned to renew strength as the will would hearted in him turning into a creature of stone that cooler and less barron miles could subdue. the most beloved her role with figures is based on a firsthand knowledge of the virtues of the men of the trenches of the great war. i have always been impressed we are here surviving because of the courage of

people against impossible odds. is indeed a reflection of who i knew in the 1914 war to recognize far superior to myself. lofted the humblest for the smallest but now food displays the greatest valor? and to live among these small people with courage under fire? and to watch them die and as the most destructive they cannot clarify its violence or a grayish finish neither the cynicism that is so prevalent.

with those demented choirs of we had of heroism to be reinvigorated end reinterpreted. lewis and tolkein uphold the importance of friendship with a common struggle i can stiefel. it is not a solitary endeavor. with the end of brothers but the 101st airborne but they make the best friends they ever would have to talk about the experience of combat that is relative to fight in 1914.

four c.s. lewis for men under fire in the past be a defining experience also in the british expeditionary -- expeditionary force that understood the eggs id -- things idea of combat and to share the love for the richer am the philosophy to declare that johnson would be a lifelong friend. to have endless arguments buddie you get the picture?

and like a force of nature that it replaces romance of it -- as a preeminent expression of love. in between all who have served during to the experience of war to distinguish the of love among friends. the poet or the philosopher or the christian by staring in his eyes. that go in and that was devoted through the bay in the of brothers to call the council of london for a

moment and they share their deepest hopes and dreams were the sense from that men in that day is a vacant incidents that the concept of friendship or suffering of war from the of the lord of the rings? it is called the fellowship of to ring. what a fellow? before setting out from the perils that lie ahead. end to confront them but it does not seem that i can trust anyone. it all depends on what you want to you can trust us to

the bitter end is to keep a secret closer then what you keep yourself you cannot trust us to face trouble alone to go off without a word we are your friend we are horribly afraid fall league you like a hound. have a few friends following us like hounds. one of the moral triumphs' the threshold the very end of the quest with thirsty and exhausted and overwhelmed of the landscape the black skies the noxious fumes and the smell of death. ac and not unlike of what they experienced from the

great burden he would crawl on his hands. the node tears came to his size. he centcom mr. frodo i can carry you thank you. tell him where to go. i suspect only individuals and that experience in the field of combat could have grit and courage and nobility. during debt crisis years at oxford they launch the inklings of friends and fellow scholars to discuss

their work the it j.r.r. tolkein helps louis i a publisher and most importantly it was teeeighteen conversation with louis mcmxxxi until 2:00 in the morning about nature and christianity this conversation al lewis himself described as the leading human causes of conversion to christianity. as a great advocate to be a good share is encouragement. all day from list right get the idea of my staff could be more than a private hobby.

i should never have brought the board of the rings to a conclusion. >> while the accepted for publication looking forward to have the book to read then he reveals so much of your whole life ended what is slipping into the past is amended to catch what he is saying? in this trilogy he is somehow captured life together a serious way. and reported by the streams of sacrifice and loyalty and love. this is part of the

achievement that we cannot overstate the subversive encounter cultural the works of lewis and tolkein and remain in our own. through endless days of mud and stench and slaughter. net very like that that shook the foundation of civilized life. that all the populations. but eliot says we are iran rats out the were the dead men lost their bones. at the ruthless and disbelieving but instead they face this suffering

with realism. the first time tears and stuffed - - suffering and horror and death. the stories insist we live in a moral universe of the ruin and wreckage of human life. to respired noble sacrifice for humane purposes will sometimes be necessary to preserve human freedom. while we defend our lives of those who could devour all i the only that which they

defended giants of literature of mythic and heroic figures of the claim upon our country than an ordinary lives to challenge us to join with them in the struggle it is said desperate struggle ladies and gentlemen,. in their roles created by a token and the west -- lewis and tolkein it is goodness outside of ourselves. for all the accusations of medieval escapism they come closer to capture the tragedy of human condition think about it. by the end of the quest to give up the thought of the ultimate success or survival

said he's a really have a little bit of time to wait and there is no escape. but despite all of the courage and strength, at frodo in his quest he fails he chooses not to destroy the region but succumbed to the power to place about his banker i do that choose to do what i came to do. and not a fire in the resistible however a good day be. in the spirit of that age of virtue and heroism a protagonist to always saves the day lowe's san

firepower. i believe in the second amendment. but the moral vision is fundamentally different. with the struggle against evil but to make victory impossible the tragic nature with the moment of the final failure seems inevitable and now that dimension in reaches the zenith with the best very tail with a consolation of a happy ending with this said injurious turned toward rest period redemption and.

it is called the catastrophe of the decisive race to restore what has been lost to set things right. is overturned by a power stronger than weakness to identify the power that wind ever present person that is only to plunge to the death. they're remit is astride but not by frodo or fellowships but a dracula's race in the children's stories and then when they fight their way to the entrance of the state

the last battle of an area. with the all powerful evil and i can think of 100 deaths i would rather have died but the company force inside its doors all hope seems lost. to cast doubt into a portable the more beautiful than the parts can bear. all that mattered were the creature strawn into their real maurya.

-- narnia. the first place of the messiah the tribe of judah of jesus is in bethlehem. a stable ones had something inside that was bigger than dell whole world. the sacrifices trajan a familiar because for the two giants of literature there is only one truth or one singular event with the war against the evils to undo dash human tragedy to bring everlasting peace. of course, the great lie and to know that blessed rome the light ahead that they

great series of a giant staircase because leaping from a cliff to cliff with power and beauty as the voice of conscience and a source of consolation of the lion and though late tom. of tenderness and severity of terror and comfort intertwined and heir to that kinship though life is devoted but his true stature is made known when he finally assumes that j.r.r.

tolkein but when eric gone are bros all that be held him he stood above all that was near an ancient of those days wisdom sat upon his brow and then to say behold the king life that was not terrifying. oh world debt every sold was caught up in the struggle and sacrifice in courage and clashing armies. this is the day where every part is laid bare when we will go -- will though

choosing light or darkness the negative works of fiction or heroism and sacrifice to file a clue to the meeting of the earth the journey. is everything said going to come and true? for the creators of narnia the deepest source of hope for the human story with the belief that god and goodness are the alternate reality and the shadow of sin and suffering will finally and forever be lifted. is the great war will be one. to bring strength and healing will make everything centcom and true. thank you for listening. [applause]

think you're. i think we have a little time? >> please structure your question in the form of a question would be lovely. >>. [laughter] spin a cathode tube getting here?

your avers make me cry and i do not like you that will ago when charles died al everybody wooded field with a lapel pin to remain in your post and do your duty. have you think they would tell us today what is the post and what is our duty? >> they have their own sense of calling of right-wing literature. that is says chandra that is the field they wanted to be successful why they devoted themselves to meet together to help each other to become a the best at their kraft and imagine those settings with a great writer's critiquing each other's work j.r.r. tolkein said he

virtually read every chapter out loud to lucas one on one every single chapter because listening for criticism when he heard a thing as what the -- read out loud and you wanted that so the commitment was so crucial so they met 16 years every week every thursday and even tuesday's through the second world war they are meeting because they're so devoted to become a the best of their kraft. that we had to make a commitment to that to understand never own failings to say before guide i want to be a person of integrity and excellence of this craft because the north the end of the day it will have ripple effects.

but they were devoted to excellence and integrity. thank you. >> first of all, thank you and coming to talk to was. i would like to read you a quotation from a fellow englishmen. and wonder if you could talk to us about what they might think about this quotation. >> war is an ugly thank to the greatest state of feeling that nothing is worth more is much worse the thing for which he is willing to fight nothing which is more important than his own personal safety than the miserable creature no chance to be free with better men than himself. >> yes. in the postwar years one of the benefits of tried to teach american foreign

policy as thank god the students are blank slates and they don't know what i don't know. [laughter] angels of mercy but figure out the reaction against the first war was say pacifism neither lewis and tolkein wade into the war as warriors there was rhetoric from the minister's. not so much from the guy in the trenches but even though they came all very sobered lewis wrote around 1942 that we know from experience of the last 20 years that an angry and fearful pacifism that the is to war to reflect of that appeasement

is the 30 said allows fascism to rise and unchallenged so the war is horrible just about the worse thing that could happen but yet there are things that are even worse. what i love is they are reluctant warriors filled with self doubt they are surprised that they have won the battle so there is a realism about combat had to work that they fuse into their stories but will not give up on the idea of love war for here in purposes. power to get somebody over here. you guys are in is the of bleacher seats i feel for

you. anybody over there? >> i would say that your talk was full of hope in very inspiring and i appreciate that and with humor. we obviously look in contemporary of the society of the world that we live today, as we're talking here in washington d.c., what would you say are some insights to research the book that might be helpful for national readers? >> a great question. what stands out? you get into the writings and the journal's and your aberration and grows and deepens. part of what they rate able

to do is manifest and avoided the two extremes ever popular in their day the extreme at chaired of militarism, utopianism we can change the world to make in our own image but also avoided cynicism and to navigate between the restraints through their lives and their ridings and i wonder sometimes if they carry dues though little more of that. it doesn't read the stories don't have gripping tales as those elements are there but there is an awareness of the tragedy of the human condition that comes out of the accretion understanding and yet with the grace of god amazing things can happen.

individual wills matter. with a supreme emphasis of individual decision making it is shocking that people have choices to make whether animal form you have choices the of fundamental individual choices is usually important. how about the lady in the back? >> my name is emily. i really liked your comment of friendship is emphasized more than romance in narnia. can you talk about why our culture today sivas to value

romance more than friendship ? >> that is way above my pay grade but it is a terrific question. let's see if i can scratch the surface one possible answer when i think of the friendship there were a friendship not for their own sake but for the sake of a great and noble cause. had is where they are forged and one of the dangers we have an idea that share is precious promises with no great cause or crucible of conflict or challenge to which we have dedicated ourselves in friendship and if you don't believe there are great causes worth being

a part of for a great moral truth that will weaken the french shipping and undermine its but it is the belief of a great moral truth. that is what animates the friendship. to take away the moral landscape of a great transcended truths. dear is no point. what is it about? that is parts of the problem but the weakening of the of friendship. it is so easy and so attempting and there is. i cannot do that question in just as. >> justice. >> my question is you

briefly alluded to world war ii in their ridings but how much of an effective and in what way did it have on their outlooks of the world had rights seeing themselves? >> terrific question. j.r.r. tolkein assumed when the board of the rings came out it was an allegory that it was just a symbol and teeeighteen said explicitly and a letter. of course, it is not it is about power and the desire to dominate. that is what he says the books are about the desire for power and the desire to dominate. of course, we have the children fleeing london but j.r.r. tolkein and colleges he was writing this part of

the epic trilogy well in the canteens' under fire with bits and pieces of fragments as he begins to forge the nephrology -- a new methodology but as a steady through that at the end of the day they both have of what to say during that period of 1942 so often they will hearken back to the first world war. j.r.r. tolkein writes a letter to his son and he is anxious and j.r.r. tolkein says i know what it is like you were in a dangerous place but remember it you were inside a great story

trying to encourage his son and also said during that time that is when he began to use his writing as though way to somehow express the struggle and the grief and the sorrow sayonara really getting at your question but the 1940 war is a confirmation in many ways of the narrative power why there is a region venation the tragedy of human condition will play itself out again. >> i am here with a conference.

how you think that's. >> host: teeeight would answer the question how to know the world and still love it? they obviously do the pain and the evil in a specific way going through world war war i and also use books for truth. your thoughts? >> a terrific question. i am thinking of was and what would characterize his journey and his life he lost his mother at a young age during the first world war cared for by elderly woman most of his life but the experience of choice that louis learned from a the ability to appreciate beauty that typical duty or moral duty to develop that

capacity and that is a learned to treat i seem to have to decide we will stop and appreciate. so while he is still agnostic he moves towards a theism. he is on the train and is injured and takes him out he is on a train to recover at a hospital in england and is crossing through the beautiful english countryside and writes in a letter you cannot imagine how beautiful that trade ride was despite the size of the poppies and that he says i am beginning to think there is some source of duty beyond the natural world but i don't know what it is. as he begins to capture that experience to develop that

spiritual muscle is a crucial part of the answer. i don't think it will happen naturally to discourage us from exercising that muscle. does that help? >> i just moved your from arizona. i really appreciate your comments today as a huge fan of c.s. lewis i was not aware of his first hand experience with the war. and how he was using his books to make people aware of the horrors of the war to write about it to bring vaccine -- that seem. living in the united states as a native american one

thing that we wrestle with is our history that is marginalized and dehumanized so how do you think, how to best raise this, that's lewis and tolkein had a dialogue of the zero floors in their mind as a nation we tend to celebrate exceptionalism the yet we don't know how to talk about the fact that all men are created equal and the declaration of independence and indians were put as savages so how should that be done today to help our society deal with its own horrors of its own history? >> a great question for that. one of the things that i do my civilization in class if there are many students here

thank you for coming but i instils struck the clementi's would classic the good and bad and the ugly. the point is to introduce the idea that western civilization an american expression is the good and the bad and the ugly what i think we should do it is our own perspective to go with our eyes open to avoid the extremes of cynicism in utopianism and it seems that is another acquired discipline which is a character issue as well the ability to navigate between the two. if you think of their ridings, i don't think they are glorifying war or the role at all and part of the reason i say that is think

of the characters and their stories, almost all of them have a great temptation that they're all foldable with of last for power because almost nobody is immune to that but no creature is beyond redemption so to talk about a creature who has up part to play in all of this. but then to say mercies of they were holding out hope even frodo held that posture so from that perspective of realism and utopianism and fatalism is reevaluating our history and come to grips with it is the best tonic at the end of the day.

thank you so much for coming. [applause] >> each fixates a desire or hobby or fetish my staffer was going around and found a book by joe cannon and it was written and first-person written by his secretary or staffer it is fascinating what it was like. at the same time there wasn't another buck -- was

another book that talks about though language used but what the words meant at the time for pro who was fascinated that has written at the same time with that particular book also the former senator who was in his 90s now, saving congress from itself about the significance of federalism which is the principal to save the country that is what we'll do it. s of baseball fame and there is one called the code of the concept wider and written rules and how they are enforced sometimes you are retaliated and that

saved the unwritten rules how with functions of the house some things you do and some you don't there are ways that we selfie enforce those rules so i think that will be interesting to me. >> booktv on c-span2 iran in new york city one of the things we like to do is talk with authors to get previews of their books coming out in the fall. joining us now pulitzer prize-winning author of her newest book called and though we choose. -- the witches. we all know about this a love which trials.

>> that is what got the started. it is not entirely about women many victims are men that women are the accusers it is women on women event with a whole cast that has been lost to history is a historical moment that we don't know that it is a work of fiction. also we think they burned that we did not burn witches and america to hold that propaganda cames later from the south per day much all the basic facts are wrong. >> massachusetts what wasn't like?

>> it was how the triose soaper but to show the symptoms of witchcraft to be the isolated outpost to create more sophisticated congenial community right on the of water but wealthier and focus with the farmers and to enter the first press the press. if it is very dark and primitive and a frightening place because living there you are fairly certain they will come barreling down on

you any moment with rumors of irish or the french our about to arrive you are feeling on the frontier a pretty vulnerable. >> what was the population of this area? >> the village had about 500 people the town had 2,000 which was pretty large at that point boston was between six and 8,000 ben salem and the boston are the two urban centers at that moment with a bustling town to hand it writing community. looking for the church's problems and disputes so there is a tension between the town and the village. but we talk about a society which pretty much everyone is god-fearing whether or

not he goes to reading but with the sense of sin and evil and kilts and shame. they begin to act out they would interrupt the church service and. this is unthinkable so is there a sense of shaver brewing -- shame brewing? that under spiritual distress? but pretty much religion permeates every aspect at this point. >> host: to are the main characters? >> to young girls initially. one is the minister's daughter who disappears from the scene.

which is very convenient but another becomes one of the mysterious and she identifies many witches san she accuses people freely and the people that they may more interesting the suspects are the dubious characters but then they reach out to a group of accusers tore a the resident bad girl of the community over a 14 years old to is a juvenile delinquent and a former minister of salem village who is accused of witchcraft he is a minister who is brought back to trial and eventually will be hong the. -- hong but those in other

credits against many people were accused of witchcraft earlier now are on trial again but with more dire results and the first time. >> and the minister is accused at one point you have another daughter grandmother who altogether each of them accusing each other over three generations over deals with the devil to make her a witch. and it spread very quickly. it is important to remember how dark and frightening it was a jazz and thus smudges on the wall are interpreted as something else especially if you hear that we choose

our living down the road but connecticut it would also suffer its own but the committee most severely affected was a handover action the essex county which trials as so many find themselves involved. >> doing research on this was their records? >> the records are fabulous unfortunately the trial records have disappeared. nobody is sure what happened but the testimony of a the hearing with the attorney general on the back of the paper survived so we have much of the earth these hearings, it to death warrants and a document that

is chilling because you get a sense of what was going on inside the courtroom with a very noisy trial everyone tries to use the canned ones with enormous amount of corruption and essentially tries to exonerate themselves the evidence against the accused is slightly uneven. so you have a chilling document that once you walk into the courtroom is weighing against years so it is pretty dirac -- dramatic. >> host: what is the function of the wicked -- the witch trials? >> it is very convenient to have that it your past because it keeps you in

line. because literally a looking at the situations of the neighbors and civil liberties to come up over and over again sometimes with the wrong reasons but how we misinterpret to use against each other, we turn them into victims to burn them rather than hang them but they took a position to say we may have slaves but you have witches. that is where they get the idea but to congratulate each other but the idea that now we have to keep ourselves in line is of a national disgrace to serve a moral purpose going forward. >> host: how many people were hauled -- hung.

>> another is crushed under stones torture is rarely used in north america. >> host: how to pick the topics of your books? --. >> i am not i've ever been able to see that i am coming off cleopatra how women into power with a powerful woman and what do they do with their power and why are men so baffled by female power and that curious idea of an adolescence with power that i felt i had not quite worked out.

is this is the topic we are very well first to show that we know very little about it but it was mythological at this point. but to look get documentation very little of the first person of the girls themselves so children for what is going on we get to corymb hearings so looking at that psychological and though you work with what you have. >> host: you won the pulitzer prize. >> but the question and there was to people who spend their entire life in a closed room together because much of what he writes and

she writes for him with correspondence so you have said to melding of the personalities nitride to get them apart. >> host: would issue a background? >> a small town in massachusetts that it gives me the obsession with the sale of now i am fascinated by small-town massachusetts and i went to williams and why was there many years then went to publishing when i finished. >> host: into the business of publishing. day you consider yourself a historian? >> more so that mine is usually on the narrative but i am not interested so much to cover the field of every detail but to have the narrative to give you the complexity and the new ones

that make you feel you are reading something you cannot put down. >> with the plo was very young then into crowds source that was mind-boggling so do you pull the dictionary of the selfie or check wikipedia? so to have a sense of what is real knowledge into is the real actors to talk about a 16th century massachusetts so everything around these people comes into the world and is an interesting way it is very convoluted with river in very the colfax to say where that ends up with a lot of

chatter to say that is rather rare and not just a fact. >> host: this comes out october 2015 what is your next project? >> i think it is a book tour. i am not done with this subject there is something that is very enchanting and there are too many ways to look at that. >> host: the witches is the name of the book. this is booktv on c-span2.

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