it? what would you do different maybe next time are what was your take away? >> guest: it sounded more romantic than it was. at being a process i thought it would be fun but it turned out to be sometimes painful because of the personal things i went through and i to sit down with my children that talk about how i talked about the father, and that was hard, but it's a little bit look at the little -- little bit like childbirth. painful to go through it. i'm proud i was honest and blunt and candid in his book i think we need more of it in the public realm. identify of another book in the. if i went this far in this one, my sister said you can't write another one because you will go way too far. ..

and she was the name of the book. how well each student scheduled the jobs. lauren rivera is the author. presser rivera, how do you define delete. >> excellent question. it depends to you last. i've been looking natalie jobs in jobs in terms of investment banking, management consulting and these are in many ways the business says, the baby business elite. they are very, very prestigious positions. with high levels of economic rewards in terms of salaries. cultural elite, media elite. these are the people in the most tedious and reporting segment.

>> host: is that we begat elite? >> guest: i think it does. a lot of it is unconscious to. we naturally premature tradespeople similar to ourselves. when it comes to elites whether economic or cultural, there's certain ways of carrying yourself, educational tracks and so forth that are more common and we come to believe that is the best one and what people who have merit, the types of paths they pursue. it reminds me of the research that shows what kind of driver is a good driver or what parent is a good parent. and i think there's something going on this in terms a new last positions of power and society they will give the definition strikingly similar to whatever they are. it's sure another segment as

well be a definitely one thing that contributes. >> host: blockbuster case study of how an elite student gets an elite job. >> guest: yes come in general the types of occupations get an entry-level job straight out of undergrad or law school and elite professional service firm, top investment firms. these firms has a very strict view that the best and the brightest go to top schools and they have a very narrow definition of what a top school lives. i meant the top 50 schools as an elite school or selective school. that is not what the game is here. the game is to be the top five, top 10 university. you need to have the right resume. for undergraduates, a lot of undergraduates don't have a lot of work pics variants.

they may have wanted to enter chips under their belt that the more prestigious the better. they aren't necessarily looking for skills in a domain. prince jin, harvard, columbia trust, columbia trust they are smart enough to do the job and teach you whatever you have to learn. they look for internships often unpaid. that's one of the dimensions of this as well as extracurricular profiles that are filled with that dvds motivated by personal passion. things like sports, depending the person who it screens your resume, drama can be a good one. you're heavily involved in drama and you may be out of luck. the idea that the best and the brightest cultivate their skills not only in the classroom but outside is huge. if you don't have extracurricular activities motivated by passion you're out of the game. do you want me to continue?

if you are selected to interview, a lot of interviews are open-ended. and open-ended conversation for the first five minutes they are why are you here, what he liked do in your spare time and a feeling of personal chemistry based on similarity and things that are outside of work, outside of school or huge source of interview success. after that, some firms have some sort of skill test in consulting the most structured case interview. i can tell you more if you're interested. you are supposed as the two-year interviewer in a way that other equals. they foster a feeling of chemistry. it's partly dependent and middle-class culture.

they benefit the non-elite more than the elite. >> for the most part. let me start with unstructured interviews. unstructured are the most common american hiring managers use. they love them because of the lesser personal theory of success to be the guiding force. you may think what drive success in life and in your job is to factor from a certain state or you've come from a certain family background. it is about the conversation and what you personally think drive success used to measure interview performance. a structured interview is the same question saw the interview candidates. ideally those are informed by analysis of what factors actually predict on-the-job success. coming from iowa is a good verdict there of on-the-job success but that may not have anything to do with it.

structured interviews ideally have data-driven structured assessment whereby the candidate is asked to do something job relevant. in general they tend to reduce inequality on the personal biases we have and keeps interviewers focusing on job relevant criteria. when interviews are unstructured, all these things can run crazy. the one downside to having it process i talk about in the book a little bit is that for some reason whatever structure you've adopted, and they have these case interviews for applicants are asked is no similar to one they might encounter on the job and they have to go through a stylized script or if you don't

know the rules of this particular type of interview interaction, you're not going to do well. when a structured interview requires mastery of insider code i required no imminent cider to get ahead in the playing field. >> professor rivera, you write less a law student from a working-class family talked about recruiting events well, i would generally stand over in the corner with my or stand up at the bar so i'd really used that as a recruiting troll. maybe it would've been marked that i felt like a tool that. i hate like schmoozing when you go to cocktail parties. >> guest: i think what counts and what doesn't depends a lot on your connection and your connections are influenced by about round. i also think they know enough networking and chemistry is a

growing times. working-class students enter the classroom enter universities with the opinion what is on the resume counts most and especially feeling jobs is not the case. not only knowing you're supposed to do it are doing about can make or break a candidate. >> host: what do you teach? >> guest: i teach leadershileadershi p. >> host: what is the dems side of pedigree of elite students getting elite sides? >> guest: i think there can be peered wondrously like to live in a society where we believe opportunity is at least in theory open. when there are processes in place like the ones i documented the buck, that systematically make it magically don't come from come from one of these background your chances of a top 10 job are very small. not impossible, just very

commemorate difficult. that threatens our notion of the american dream and open society. for farms come in the most boring part is evident to suggest students in the highest class background as well as the most elite schools tend not to like these jobs. is dobson called and a lot of people i really lost your 3790 are actually worse that for the job of an individual or modest economic scheme or prestigious schools. people are calm tend to want to shot earlier. the first one to two years -- these positions are not meant to take it a partnership of backgrounds tend to like the work more and want to stay longer. there's also a research to suggest individuals actually

have better coping skills, things that are often demanded using professions. >> host: our schools guilty as well of perpetuating the belief system? >> guest: i think they are. i don't think it's intentional. especially elite universities have some pretty strong as it is to keep this going. one is the fact national rankings for business and law schools back or in starting salaries for recent graduates into the ranking. rankings have become so important in terms of their own status but alumni donations, things that help them unwind. biting as many students benefit universities. the second my universities are complicit as the most elite

universities, undergraduates, business school and law school allow firms unfettered access to student and what that does is create the climate on campus where these careers end up being a crucial marker of self-worth for a lot of students. people in the going into these careers in much greater numbers than they would otherwise because the recruiting process had been described as literally taking over campuses for several months per year have made it such these are the most visible and high status jobs available this is. >> you teach at the kellogg school of management. you are top five? >> we are. i'm a former manager to consult myself. i think universities play a big role in mass how do you fight

this? >> it requires two things. the first has to do with universities. one of the big reasons why the playing field is so scared happens to be elite universities of the undergraduate and graduate level 10 t. is highly class biased criteria. when you look at the student population of a top school whether the undergraduate or business law at the graduate level, and programs tend to be dominated so you are skewing the population to begin with. when you look at firms that only recruit, if they had a class biased population, their hiring practices will be class biased. if you add on top of the class biased hiring practices, and things like school press use, but other things correlated with socioeconomic status of the

applicant's parents such as participation in extracurricular activities, unpaid internship, my space notions of what it means to be a well spoken person inside the process and so forth you is old in a system with a double filter on economic status. >> host: does the reach country later racial bias? >> i think it's important to disentangle ray status because they are different in the hiring process is strongly disadvantaged students from low-income backgrounds regardless of race. in addition what happens in interviews and deliberations is people use stereotypes the shirt has an especially with african-american man, there is a racial stereotype players operate on the people are less polished.

so we see it is very clear and applicant falters just a little bit on something related to interpersonal communications that of the pool. i watched equivalent applicants who were white men who make the exact same error and they were considered to be coachable. there are subtle racial biases throughout the process but also in addition to it that also create racial bias in the process. also the schools tend not to be the most racially diverse schools to begin with. you have the pipeline issue but also the bias issue in terms of what employers are doing to reinforce inequality we have today. >> host: professor rivera, former management consultant, are you part of the elite system? have you been guilty yourself? not trying to put you on the spot. just curious.

>> guest: i never did interviews for my old firm but i lived in this world among time and i think it is quite tempting to take a lot of the shortcuts that we take as human in terms of you like people more who are similar to you. if someone comes from a shared background it's easier to relate. i don't think i am unique in that. i don't necessarily have the authority to hire anyone. not yet at least. i hope the protocols will result. >> host: a stranger written for management students or the general public? >> guest: is written for sociologists. i got my phd in sociology end of his intended to be for scholars of income inequality. if it s. and pacs for managers

and practitioners of those mba students unhappy about that. the intended audience was really sociologists. it's nice that anyone reads it so i gathers her public appeal. >> host: princeton press has put this book out. use the word polish quite a bit. what is it mean to be polished? >> guest: polishes would interview with talk about presence and communication skills. soft skills. can you interact with the client? are you presentable to someone who's an executive? it varies from place to place. if you look at an advertising agency, the type of mannerisms valued may be different from law firms. likewise academia and different presentations in the corporate world. in this world it means a couple things. it means being formal without being too formal. having a sense of relaxation

between you and the person you talk with is the reason why the candidates are thrown out as they are perceived as too formal for two informal. the first thing is being formal enough to be professional but not too informal to be immature. the second is in the interview context taken the reins of the conversation. a lot of people think in an interview you're supposed to passively answer the questions the interview asks you. that is how you do an interview in many types of occupations. here it is called conversational leadership. the idea is you try and treat the interviewer as an equal. that is in having them how the position of power and you're the person who wants the job. you create this into a conversation of equals. shamus con at columbia talks about how that is a hallmark of

economic elites. the ability to make anyone feel it is regardless how higher how low they are relative to you in the economic hierarchy and none is absolutely essential. that type of skill is different than if you went to an interview and a fact array. if you try to assign commonalities and create a quality come your interviewer would not be pleased. >> host: lauren rivera, if you don't go to an elite school community college or local campus, either two strikes against you at that point? >> guest: if you go to community college chances are you're not going to get through the door. a four year anniversary, say a public university that's not a flagship for some firms have a narrow public flagship. the key there i