problem has been reduced down to where we have at. he is a big deliver in the st stimulus. he talks about owing ourselves and investments. i think there might be a case. i might disagree with it but i think the stronger case would be if the money was used to invest. but the reality was within the stimulus bill it was various forms of consumption. shovel ready jobs were not so shovel ready. but it was also a lot of money wasn't targeted to that type of investment. >> host: that is one there is a lot of disagreement on. >> guest: we have been arguing about that since cane. >> host: it will continue i am sure. we have a few moments left.

tell me what you want people to read your book and understand they didn't know before. >> guest: the problem not only hasn't gone away but it is bigger than we think. politicians are happy to ignore the deficit and debt because fixing it provides pain particularly pain for voters. if they can somehow paper it over and say that is someone else's problem they are happy to do that. we spend a lot of time worry about the crisis of the day whatever that is is don't spend enough time looking at the long term problem in this country. we have a little rest. the deficit down probably because of the sequester and stopped spending stimulus measures and paid back tarp and weird accounting measures there. >> host: we have a little breathing room. >> guest: we have a little breathing room. if we don't take advantage of

that wait for the deficit to climb and the entitlement kicks in and the baby boomers are collecting medicare and social security it is going to be painful. there is something that can not go on forever and it will eve eventualeven eventually stop. we cannot go on the course we are on. the question is will it be soft or hard landing? you can look to europe and see what is happening in greece and see the result of a hard landing. i don't think we want that. if we start making changs to the program today i think ultimately we can soften the landing. >> host: we have little time and hopefully politicians can come together and help us get the soft landing. michael tanner, thank you for talking about your book today. >> guest: pleasure. >> host: thank you.

books by presidential candidates , starting at eight pm eastern here in c-span2. >> "washington journal" marks the tenth anniversary of hurricane katrina tomorrow with former mayor the editor of the new orleans times, and karen

aguilera, saturday's program will talk about katrina's aftermath ten years ago. >> next book tv afterwards features president of the american for tax reform with his book in the irs b and at the before it ends us. >> how's it going were going to discuss your new book, and and the irs before it ends us. it's a fascinating read, it's a broad sweeping book and it range from the history of the united states by tax policy and tax revolts to personal advice for the reader on how to minimize.

there'll be a wide range of topics to discuss. let's start out with the title. and the irs before it ends us, there's two things i want to know, why why do you want to end the irs and to even in your materialized world with a single eyes flat tax on unconsumed income, someone would still be in charge of collecting tax revenue. guest: this is a sweep of history, it talks about we've gone from one to 2% of our income being collected from taxes prior to the revolution. in london they are paying 20%, it's, it's a expensive to run and empire. we are paying one to 2, we are growing and moving along and tremendous things

happen. over time, a series of a series of things happened and government got bigger and bigger and taxes got higher, and higher. the economy slowed and our relative strength compared to the rest of the world slowed in reverse. the question is, we are doing very well and we moved away from a policy that really work that doesn't work as well. how do we get back there. the solutions part of it is not what we do today to fix things tomorrow. i think we could look forward to a time when perhaps you didn't have an income tax. we didn't didn't have an income tax until 1913. also in the book what i talk about is doing things at the state level that become models for federal activity. term limits started at the state level and now hit congressmen and senators as committee chairs, this is very powerful and effective. transparency at the national level followed transparency state-by-state.

welfare reform, move from the states into washington, school choice, a number of issues. we have issues. we have nine states with no income tax. and another ten or so that are actively moving to phase out their tax. i think you will see arizona, wisconsin, north carolina, kansas, mississippi, the house just voted to follow a kansas model as revenue comes in additional revenue between two or 3% growth will go to phase down the income tax. what happens in states without this is additional money comes in because there is growth or capital gain taxes, then they grab it and spend it all i never think through what happens. it shows up magically and disappears to the special interests. host: so you would want to

similar model of the federal level speeii yes i think you could go state-by-state, if you would have half the states with right to work laws. at the national the national level you could look at altering federal work loss. we have nine states with no income tax, we'll get to half of the next ten or 15 years. at that point will say do we need to have a federal income tax at the federal level? i think the answer is maybe not. and we just keep moving in that direction. host: okay good because i think people would be skeptical. guest: not tomorrow, not not next year were not talking about host: this is a long-term scenario. guest: we didn't get to get this mess overnight, took decades.

host: and more of the short-term concern is what you look out with, about how the irs talks to conservative groups and the 2012 election. is that part of what drove your title choice. guest: it does, you're right were just a pages into the book and we discuss, what i think is very possibly a decision by irs and bureaucrats to go after the growing tea party movement and deny them 501(c) four legal status. so they could legally raise money, have one or two staffers and rented office and grow into state institutions. tea party started in 2009. just a few months into the obama administration and i would have told you at the time that it couldn't happen, that i've been

working in the taxpayer movement for a long time and i knew from experience that american people would rise up against attacks and greece. proposition two and a half, proposition 13 property tax revolt. they didn't revolt during the previous ten to 15 years when spending got out of hand and taxes what rose to be. they waited until taxes increase. so i thought we are going to have to wait until obama would spend a lot of money and i would say hey look at that and they would say well it's not a problem. the american people sensed that all that spending was going to lead to tax increases and didn't wait for the tax hikes. tax hikes followed by the tea party came first. it was the first anti- spending movement in the u.s. history. that the tax revolt. when they did that, they had

maybe 600 to 1000 rallies that we could document around the country. there was a wonderful study put out from harvard and university of sweden and it was very powerful. it said here's where you have a tea party rally what was the difference in voter turnout and money race were political campaign and volunteers, teacher attendance. they were estimating between three to 6 million additional votes came out four republicans came out in 2010 then what she would have expected. if you think about it the left is always doing rallies. i always thought it was because that's why they don't have jobs. while you meet people at

rallies, you, you get a sense of belonging, you say this is part of a movement and its bigger than me. host: i think one remarkable finding is how local these are. part of the narrative the left out of the tea party movement is it was organized from evil billionaires and the masses driven by rally turnout didn't buy local weather on it daily schedule. it shows you how organic a lot of it was. guest: at first deal obama administration would say they didn't watch any of the rallies and did know about it. i got calls and grown-ups in the media say you know what were doing right. they thought i had organized it was some fortune 500 companies, and then you say actually know.

were trying to find all of these guys and we would love to work with them but we haven't seen them before. i went to some early rallies and people would say how many have been to a political rally before intent to 15% would raise their hand, these are these are people and never done this before. in 2010 and the democrats got wiped out lost the house because the tea party surge and voter turnout. it was at that point, that senators and the president were screaming out loud, something has to be done. lois lerner gave a speech on my birthday in 2010 and she said they are all telling me i have to do something. people were looking for the email, you don't need an e-mail. she said out loud, you could see

it in letters that were sent from senators, you could see it in the president's comments that something was terribly wrong and needed to be stopped. and her, was they her, was they want me to do something before the election. one of the general started talking about, we we need to make some decisions before the election. this is crazy, general should not talk like this neither should someone who runs the irs. they harass people who are trying to set up their 5o1c4 ,'s so they got a big account today could elect the president. we didn't have the growth that state tea party groups the way we did out of 1978 through 1980 taxpayer revolt. they had a little office and bank accounts, there are major players in massachusetts, california and other states. obama and lois lerner succeeded in recapping the tea party movement so it could not replicate in 201212 like it did in 2010. the election in 2012 my will have turned out differently if

there had been us similar upsurge of republican votes, obama would have loss. host: he was up by 1 million. guest: but there is still a margin of 4 million the before saw that in the search, if that had continued, we should a belt on its not just replicate itself. there's a serious argument that was a major factor, maybe the factor, in obama's reelection. you can't have part of the government plan politics against the american people, and that's what we have the the irs. host: is obviously unforgivable. one reason why the professional

left can do that is because many of the people work in these agencies and self identify as liberals. why do you think that is and why do you think conservatives, even when they have control of the house have such a hard time inundating these agencies? guest: during the american revolution, they were up against royalist. so throughout american history there been friends of the government. friends of the government are people who would want to stay with britain, the british government brought an armenian to try to let them win that fight. what happens when you have sons of liberty today, libertarians, senators, friends of government, any kind of liberals, democrats, when the government comes in and is not the service of the people but the participant in the

struggle and get that tea party activists or republicans and subsidizes organized labor, and gives them hundreds of millions of dollars for elections, is it you tilt the playing field. one conservatives and republicans tend not to work for the government they want to work from the cells of the private sector. the government is a very static career, you know what you're going to be making ten years from now. there's no such thing as i'm really good as this i'm going to make twice as much is the guy sitting next to me in my cubicle, which can happen in the rest of the world. what you notices when nixon said to the irs, would you go to tell me and give me tax return the people i don't like, they we got to the press. when kennedy and did it they said here it is sir. what bothers me about the irs corruption there were no

whistleblowers. we now know, that in the irs people are still using their own gmail accounts. your data could be on someone's gmail account. this is hillary clinton on the irs may be hundreds of thousands of people, sloppy with your data and mine, and american peoples. we know that they shared some conservative donor list with opposition to perhaps attack them and bother them. that's a real threat and i would be much happier flow as lerner said we are going to do this and someone said i'm calling the new york times this is not happening. you're quite right that the irs culture is such an much of the government's culture is that they are friends of government. not france of the people, friends of the government. they see themselves as loyal to the state rather than the the nation. host: i sometimes get the sense that you would like to change

that. guest: yes i wrote a book. host: part of your book is about how to get there. about the leave it alone coalition, how do you see that organizing process? how do you think it will end up buried fruits, how dc's future? spee2 what i try to do the book is not just diagnose the problem, we have lots of people that say there's a problem. thank you. or you can write a book and say here's the problem and if everybody would do my one solution we would win. how are you going to get them to do that, their other ways to solve the solution. so in the second half of the book there are dozens, and dozens of big things you could do today with a sign of a

presidents pen. things you could do by introducing legislation to the state level, things that would take 40 years to take effect. the paul ryan retirement reform, so we tried to lay those out. host: it's refreshing actually one big part of the book is about different types of tax reform. i get that far and that i expect now are going to see solutions. guest: i think we ought to be moving towards consumed income at one time, at one right. that could be a fair tax, retail sales tax, it could tax, could be a flat rate income tax, it could be a flat rate tax at zero and raise taxes at other places. that's where we were for over half our country's existence. the thought that we can't go there is ridiculous. maybe you could live with the

income tax that wasn't run by lois lerner, and a lot of things could be moved to the state level. not at the national level. there are many things that we need to do to move in the right direction, you can sell assets. we we own trillions of dollars of stuff under the ground. under the water. host: even the economists in the magazine, certainly certainly not the voice of the extreme right. we had a page in an editorial about how western countries all tons of assets they could sell off and get rid of to payoff their debt or lower taxes. why do you think there's not broader support for that? guest: will step one is that in

the middle of the book i talk about here's the problem we got into and the low that the taxpayer protection got into which said no night tax increase. it is as i put in writing, i will propose and vote against any net tax increase. you can do any reforms you want as long as it's not a net tax increase. so as it was written to help us in active reagan's 1986 who when you bring the rates down you brought in the rates. we have a hunter congressman in 20 centers to commit in writing that they would vote against and oppose any effort to raise rates or broaden the base. we now have a majority of the house and almost the majority of the senate who have signed the pledge never to raise taxes. that's 1000 state legislators and a lot of governors.

of the republicans running for president today, all but bush had signed it, either as governor or senators and kept it. so they have a track record of signing a pledge and keeping it. bush has not raise taxes when he was governor but i think he has his father's decision to take the pledge which is why he was in the primary and then he broke it and lost at reelection. his brother learned the opposite. take the pledge, keep it. the problem wasn't making the commitment, he had never been the nominee if he would've made the commitment. he was 14 points down from duke

caucus when he said read my lips and said he was running as regular one raise the taxes. it's when he broke it that he made it impossible for himself to be trusted on anything and to get reelected. i think at the end of the day, jeb bush will make a commitment, it will be in writing into the american people but that's the important part. host: do you worry, or is it okay to discuss senator hatches initiative to reveal the ethanol tax credit. guest: there is an effort, the pledge became a great wall of china beyond which options couldn't move. as long as the republicans have the house, senate, or governor from 1994 until 2009 there is no tax

increase in american history. it was the longest time in american history with no tax increase. it was when when they are all democrats in 1993 on that in 2009 when they passed a tax increase, all democratic votes. that period was the longest. without the tax increase, as soon as republicans got control the house no tax increase again. the reason why say no tax increases is to force a discussion about spending reform and government reform. if tax increases are an option government never reforms itself. all the things we have been doing, some smart some stupid, we just keep doing those. it's like a ship that just keeps it cumulative barnacles. there's never an effort to decide whether some of the stuff doesn't work anymore. the pledge is what force the

sequester and the spending cap that we live under for the next ten years. because because of that, people who care deeply about national defense art talking about calvert's legislation to reduce the number of civilian employees at the pentagon by about 100,000. save $85 million in five years, four of its a lot of what you need to get to this question numbers without reducing the number of people in uniform or the number of planes and tanks. you would never have these discussions, and didn't, for the first year there wasn't a reform in military spending. we have a war going on instead of reforming government from it we just added onto it. we did world war ii, they set set up an anti- appropriations committee, a committee whose job it was to recommend on spending. that's why the civilian conservation corps is not there anymore. they said you don't need this anymore, will put the money into world war ii. the wpa, all of these things, if

you're wondering i wonder why they're not here, why didn't this become national service, why didn't it grow, because there is a committee whose job it was to and unnecessary spending. one of the recommendations i make in the book is let's bring that committee back. senator roberts roberts has actually put together legislation to that effect, i'm hopeful we can get that discussed and in acted with a republican president. host: do you worry sometimes, there's one way around the pledge is to curb spending tax credits. for example under senators lee and rubio they have a reform plan where the business side there and that taxation stuff there's a lot of stop it on the individual side they raise rates

and they want to send funds to families. they call it a tax credit but. guest: if it's refundable it's definitely spending. there are better and less good tax cuts in the world, text indexing, tax tax credits are generally less helpful in economic growth. what they have done with that is much improved piece of legislation that some of the guys were thinking it up, they dramatically reduce the cost of tax capital gains and dividends. host:. guest: it is in total senator lee of utah and senator rubio would supercharge the economy. they spend a lot of tax credits to build political support.

the probe growth part of that is quite impressive, senator rand has a bill and i've seen general outlines of it in the next couple weeks it will come out. dramatic reduction in tax and tax rates. that would also would supercharge the economy. i think you'll see a lot of strong republicans, governors, people have track records and who actually organize things like president obama too many of our presidents. host: will you see the senators bills. guest: i think you'll see the case they'll have to make the case that they are different than obama and how they can compete with people who are governors. the depth of the republican bench, is a very healthy sign for a their side. the democrats have have hillary clinton, and then went. the one character that was going to run the former governor of

maryland, was so unpopular with his tax increase policies that his lieutenant government, who should've been a shoe in in a deeply blue state, lost. and the republican won by a big margin. now if hillary wins that's okay but it really does suggest that they are not building, used to be republicans that didn't have the local talents, now it is the democrats that don't. it's very troubling lean long-term for the democratic party. guest. host: it's a consequence with the elections we have seen, they blossom any governorships, so much control of statehouses that. host: one of the reasons republicans experiment at the state level and democrats can't is one, only good ideas flourish at the state level really stupid ideas can only be enacted at the national level.

if you have a minimum wage of $50,000 per year and you do it nationally it be very bad for the economy and people would say will a cause that? maybe it was just the weather the federal reserve bank. but if you do it in vermont, everybody knows what happens. the reason why when they pass government run healthcare through dukakis and that he lost the election and they were removed it. they could only do obama care nationally you cannot do is stay by stat in the manner he did it, it would be too devastating. vermont said no to doing it at the state level so this is the advantage, taxes the advantage that free market, limited government, republicans, libertarians have republicans, libertarians have which is they can try things out at this state level. when one state does it the

argument that the world and if you don't have an income tax re: you don't have right to work or you don't have government unions of the public sector, i, i think it actually works better. you can check that and then you run for president on that background. we now have more than 30 republican governors, 34 states with a republican governor, house, that's half the population in those red states. democrats have seven states that they run completely. california is a big one and their six others, hawaii, delaware, connecticut, oregon. there is a real challenge for the democrats and that if they don't have control state bodies and republicans dues. host: and the one that you controlled are not allowed to shower anymore.

guest: and their policies don't work and they're moving from a blue state to a red state. host: yes i think it's governor parries. guest: i've been governor for several years and when you're successful people moved to your state. host: i want to go back a little to your policy prescription. there is a lot of money in their so how would you make a case for should land be sold off, how would you, the environmentalism, how do you see the future? guest: hold the pledge. as long as tax increases are off the table than the spending that needs to occur in a free and open society, national defense,

courts, right now is like the federal government is running the roads, the highway system i would rather send it out to the states and have them do it. you're seen this happen state-by-state. people want to build more roads or spend more money on roads, and they want to spend more money but they're not raising taxes so what do you suggest well go find mia's bending reduction someplace else and we can couple that spending reduction with more spending on roads and you can have the roads but the government won't get bigger and won't raise taxes. or one state will give you a gas tax but the income tax goes down. you turn spending interests, national defense into your ally in reforming government and that's particular true and selling assets. the the pentagon owns a lot of the airwaves. their position is, if we were to reorganize it, to free it up we

could get it down to a fraction and then that be it. if we sold it off, they go into the general revenue and we would see us some of the back, a piece of it back. i'm in favor of and said look at the pentagon owns and uses the spectrum, there are tens and maybe hundreds of billions of dollars available. you restructure and it goes into the pentagon budget beyond what the sequester allows. but were not going pass sequester with taxes or spending. you have that money and you don't have to set it. >> ..

>> >> we saved tens of millions of dollars. there is half a billion dollars we're spending on property they're not spending in the pentagon and

those kind of reforms will only happen if the sequester holds say no to tax increases i spoken to one of those leading congressman who deals with military spending and said i will help you on this so what will congress let you do to save money? i will fight to get that done and every proposal that i put out to save money field the wages of all his problems was to raise taxes that committee chairman said what can i do to be helpful? tel everybody there is not a penny to be saved in the pentagon. that person is no longer in office but that was the thinking.

even though i talk to him about ideas to save tens of hundreds of billions dollars over time he was contrasted to put effort into that the new guys in charge harbury interested with the sequestered those talks said tell us about the savings. with a spending restraint with a cap with a sequester all a sudden people care about national defense to become an ally. not the enemy. there is a pile of $1 trillion of oil and natural gas with federally owned land and imagine if we

have the expansion of fracking on federal land as we did on private land with 100 plus percent of all the growth in oil and natural gas from fracking took place on state and local land because under obama it has gone down on federal property. we have a an explosion of energy production. but if you go to the standing coalition to say we have to cut the budget or we could responsibly go for oil or natural gas you have seen these. it doesn't burn down the forest. that is how we force reform.

don't raise taxes and the spending interest will push other people away from the table. >> host: is sounds plausible. >> guest: it has been working. >> it would be helpful if the president were on board with this as well. what do you make of the race that they said hillary is the presumed nominee? what about the republicans? >> looked around backers christy in new jersey. he got a reform in the pension system saving $130 billion over 30 years with unfunded liabilities but he has been a serious governor in a difficult state. scott walker you would have

thought that wisconsin was as blue as new jersey but now they have a republican house senate and governor and the changes include we have to have an election every year because all the people paying their dues in wisconsin have never voted to join a union they were just told you are here as a condition of employment. said to make $50,000 a year that is no voluntary and they cannot withhold it from your paycheck. so it has dropped between half and two-thirds. there is a drop of 100,000 employees not pay union dues

that is $1,000 per person that is $100 million every year out of pocket that is the conservative number it is probably higher because the unions are not rushing to tell you they are collapsing. as a result the efforts of voter fraud talking to republicans they were waiting at 6:15 p.m. to get the calls showing up with 20 people on a bus you have to get a lawyer they don't have the money for that though way they would spend money to move the voters from pole to pole they could not afford to do that because they cannot take it without people's permission anymore. he has dramatically changed the bar for what is successful governor looks like. the key is the president every governor will have to go through his checklist to be considered a republican in good standing.

that would change the country. rick perry tax is 14 years as governor taxes is a big state very successful and bob region dollars this is a campaign against obamacare he is the expert he did a dramatic expansion of school choice and cut taxes to pass an ethics law in louisiana. and has been a phenomenal governor in a very difficult state dell lot of democrats there were not a mindset when they became republican. senator cruz just announced he is serious on spending restraint day and marco

rubio spanish-speaking could get the hispanic go. lives in florida. very serious and well spoken and very serious policy. jeb bush. he was the cutting edge governor 12 for 14 years ago but he was elected before the teapartier and there was one level of expectation that was very low dash and how he was good when he is doing stuff like this when walker is up here because post teapartier you could do more into were expected to the criticism of bush like being pre-reagan or post reagan as an official bob dole never caught up to george herbert walker bush they were elected to early and served to relieve a learned how politics works

before reagan changed the rules. in the house was post being rich before that day that they ever naturally the minority now they're the natural majority. if you think half the people you will love me. it changes how you approach things they to expanding before 2010 on earmarks which prior to that teapartier was considered a sign of virility i brought this back locale manley imi have stolen money from other people. and the obituaries would talk about how somebody brought money back to the district to date they are burning at the dinner table.

it is russian. i worry that people don't understand how dramatically they have succeeded already. that we are headed in a different directory - - direction preachy party. to say we started this is an opposition to the bailout and obamacare the bailout happened obamacare is still in place. that was the main driving source. >> not to explain we have the house not the senate but we don't have a veto that

takes two-thirds to override and the answer is it takes a different president and nobody should get president -- frustrated because he can make a president zine a dissolution. >> that is who he is you can you let them there is no way to trick him into that. [laughter] that isn't happening. >> we need to be ready for a new president then move and i think we're on track for that to do. >> host: are you worried? that people are receiving subsidies to you worry the laundry is the harder to make changes? >> i worry less now because

of the tax increases have largely kicked in there is another increase yet to come that is designed to destroy gold-plated insurance policies. and that kicks in 2018. so there is another wave that could decide -- disappoint people and obama takes that away from them by taxing it to. already held savings account for special needs kids are taxed at and damaged eight of them directly hits the middle class. particularly if they announce that obamacare is a

tax and not a mandate. it remains wildly unpopular it was popular but this one no republican voted for that and it is widely unpopular to this day i always watch of the independence vote them all together huffing and puffing will make it work. in their hostility towards obamacare with the mandates. you could reform obamacare to the point it isn't obamacare anymore and it is consumer based. >> how would do that?

those state rules could be those that don't have mandates. so to get rid of those state medicaid and the block grant with the medicare in the bipartisan reforms and paul reiser and has put forward there are wage and price controls at least not without blood on the floor and competition the more you have competition between states and between consumers and vendors the better off you are. if we say no tax increases increases, restarted tear

talk about that but the legislation is seven different pieces of legislation but these are reforms using private emails there 500,000 hours each year so when they don't answer your phone 60% are answered say that isn't enough money. with 2.3 million calls at that time. and that is the irs to say

that give tax -- the gift tax is powerful because they recall governors to say 25 percent that isn't true. but if he says they shouldn't give as much money this election cycle to knows that could discombobulate just with the threat like that. so i think that is extremely helpful. >> with a consumption tax

does anybody push that thing go? >> the republican solution 5294 college education and health savings accounts flexible savings accounts obama has cut back and tell savings he is trying to cut it back to save money for your retirement and for your home a lifetime savings account retirement savings account health savings education savings the democrats tried to close them down and damage them even a couple of intellectuals on the of left to reach into everyone's 401k tier tax all the buildup and throw that into the government welfare pension system and they

tried to kill the 529 accounts 7 million people contribute to for their kids and grand kids than there was a revolt and obama backed off but he said he still wants to do it he just knew he couldn't get away with that at this time. but do destroy that. >> this is the series. >> it would be directly helpful in that chapter. >> guest: what the of -- what they want to do with the assessment with retail

sales tax and that is what you can do within the law if you get money back and get the interest-free loan. >> but not to a uncle sam but this series of those more people have access say -- fsa how do we create coalition to win these battles? people give pulls all the time they don't care if 90% to or do not like rhubarb.

but with the 529 days no one party wants to take away from them. 2 million people home school it was a legal for 30 years of people went to jail now 2 million kids are being home schooled now they know one party wants to take that away. they are not available to the timber credit party as a result 11 billion americans with conceal kerry and women can feel secure to go out at night. close to 030 years ago three year for 10 years ago there is a huge jump in the numbers they no one party was to take them away you go into a skier numbers the fda wants to ban that but it is

a lifestyle issue where people feel threatened by government although saving investment vehicles the democratic party wants to take those away from you. so i'm alerting people if you do have one you can once you do you worry different human being if you are saving $2,000 a year. but the current president still manage to get elected twice. how did you explain that? >> guest: when you did have the irs going after those structures with the two-party we have such strong third candidates and a few people are running for president in 2008 and 2012 arrest were on the lecture

circuit or had books out they hoped lightning would strike but it is very rare but this time we have a collection of people who can say here is why i want to be president if you cannot laugh them off the stage this strength is good with the weakness of hillary but she married a guy who was once president was going to run on secretary of state with russian recept but that will go down memory hall with the emails. we don't promote people that way i am not sure people like clinton clinton clinton and. >> did they like bush bush? >> it may not be fatal because he was a good

governor but that does not help that hurts. >> with the entitlement reform but it would reduce the -- what to use the with those that dynamics were there is no super urgent problem? >> no. easier. maybe i referred to read as the paul ryan reforms everything except social security with means tested welfare programs get a block

grant to the states as redid it 1996. the pensions need to move state and local and federal from defined benefit plans to defined contribution like the i.r.a. and 401k that the government cannot lose for you or forgets to raise the taxes. utah has done is completely all new hires here is your pay here is 10 percent into the 401k. when you want to leave you take that with you move to another state or another job spirit that is what everyone has in the private sector. now they're at defined contribution and state-by-state you see