what it was like before and after. feel that maybe some of this pushback and negative reporting is coming from kind of like a feeling that maybe it is bringing down the reputation of fdny around the world post- 911 due to the issues that have been going on for many years >> well, sometimes they use 911 as an excuse. ourour image across the world, new york city fire department is so high that it is a shame are saying all these bad things about the fire department and bringing the image down, but that is just an excuse. >> you are somebody, somebody who you help recruit.

>> a person i lost on 9/11 that i was the closest to was key forkeith roy maynard, really great guy that came to us, training classes and so on and join the volcker in society on the executive board.board. he was a great guy. his girlfriend was my wife's best friend. it was very sad when he passed away. that was always one of my biggest fears. somebody i helped get onto the job would pass away. so it was very difficult. >> i just wanted to piggyback. i think that during all of this time and also with the

department, people have a tendency when the victim and not blame the person who had done in the 1st place. people need to take a look at the fire department. department. don't look at the people that were on. north people deserve to have a quality of life. i just want to go to work, go home command of a vacation, have a great quality of life i don't want to have a hostile environment. i just want to work, do what i want to do, go home i want to do, go home and take care of myself. you can't blame the people who were victimized. you have to see it for what it is an understand and stop blaming the victim. >> yes. myyes. my name is josé garcia. i just recently retired after 35 years on the job.

i just wanti just want to let everyone no exactly what the process was. we initially started trying to enter at the fire department in new york city. but we did was recruitment. everyone talks about recruitment, recruitment, recruitment. back in 99 the budget of the new york city fire department was about one billion. i spent 1 million on recruitment, less spent 1 million on recruitment, less than 1 percent. we know where the heart was at. we noted there was a dramatic change. let's see what we can do. as far as merit is concerned , we had to individuals that were charged for second-degree murder. those two individuals were allowed to come on. we always heard about merit. in that respect when you

argue with some of these guys, if you talk about merit how do you let two individuals try for second-degree murder whether found innocent or not,not, and anyone that has been around realize that case destroyed a lot of faith in the judicial system so this is what were dealing with. when you mention bloomberg, he went from $4 billion when he came in to become mayor when he left and turn the city charter he was worth $35$35 billion. this is what we came across. keep in mind once the door

closes that's a whole different world. they'll use that title. behind the red door. once a title. behind the red door. once a closes your on your own. >> that is josé garcia. head ofgarcia. head of the hispanic society did stand with the vulcans. unfortunately he was not present during the bulk of their lawsuit. i we will note that post-9/11 there was a lot of emotion and there were some public cases of drinking on the job, some emotional outbursts, things that were making the papers. and they were not any claims of threats to public safety at that time. commissioner stepanek, the problem, they have lunch at

a zero-tolerance policy. you handled it in-house and your officers and brothers recovered for you, they make sure you did not get in trouble. after that he said forget it. now if your caught you come forward and say you have a problem and recent you to rehab. if you get caught drucker doing drugs you lose your job which made him unpopular. that decision was unpopular. there has always been up until recently a problem with some firefighters of drinking on the job.job. it is not new. it was a problem in 1986, a man who is found drunk in duty in his firehouse and did they get in trouble and the recommendation was that he loses job in the fire department would not fire him.

a suspended him and find him and no one talked about threats to public safety. there is a lot that goes on a does not come out until you force it out. >> i wouldi would like to follow up on that and tom's question about are we safe with the ways in which firefighters are selected. i we willselected. i will preface it by saying i run a writing program and to give a writing test my hire people and learn 30 years ago not to rank people on the test, that while writing skills were important i had to make a cut off. thenthen look at a lot of other factors. it's not a writing program. it sounds to me like a system was created that in a way filtered white people in

so they're are a lot of people who probably maybe should not be they're but should be the case in my program. and i wonder, should i feel safe? do you feel that there are too many people who got in through her cronyism system that may be really should not be there, or to those people once they get into the job step up to it? >> i think your safe to make a long story short. especially if you live in crown heights. [applause] a lot of ways the people were brought on, the nepotism that existed did result in people coming out of the job should not have been there.

there are seven of us on the job are or were on the job and some of us came in because father said you have to take the test. maybe somebody else had a problem, and that has existed for 150 years. to pretend that everything is based on merit and is fair and everything was based on merit and was fair, it's just a joke. >> i. >> i learned so much reading your book. the prb. there were a couple of stories that amazed me in terms of the person who ran the prb said in a deposition for lawsuit that they encouraged people to knew applicants to step forward and say i know him or her or i no their family and they are good people. >> yes. the hiring process was kind of incredible.

what you alluded to, it's an important but subtle peemack. the fire department was giving tests because they have 40,000 people applying for about 3000 jobs. they did not have to worry about recruitment. so this is the system they used. they did not system they used. they did not worry. the fact that it was netting more people of color, you know, hey, those who really want to forget on which was there de facto attitude. >> an interesting way of keeping records. >> they did not keep records. even if you then did score high enough and got on the job and got through, even if you got through that written test you had to get through your background, medical, and whoever was in charge found suspicious you might be referred for review.

what happened was anybody's guess because they did not follow human resources guidelines or have best practices are keep notes or memos. they did not track who went and went before the board and what was the outcome and what did come out to the lawsuit deposition was that it was common and encouraged for someone who knew a candidate who had been referred for review to come forward and say that guys a buddy of mine and i'm going to take care of him. the woman who testified said there was a lot of domestic violence. he was drunk on a saturday night. but he's a good guy. these things were happening. when the lawsuit was

progressing the intentional discrimination got to the court on appeal. the city's lawyer criticized the arguments and said they could not even make a good case. i went to the lawyers and said that is kind of a valid peemack.a valid point. you only have this one example. literally that's all i could find any spent weeks combing through the records and digging in looking and those with aa little examples that were cited that were written down. who knows what was really going on. >> okay. >> good evening. >> ii enjoyed the excerpt. one of the things that jumped out at me was the

officer who said to paul, some of these guys or whatever, these guys are never going to like you because you are too proud of being black. that really jumped out at me. when you think about the fire department, here with the fire department, one of the things you care about is the brotherhood, about how tight the guys are and how off-duty the guys are hanging out. you know, it kind of makes sense. you know, it kind of makes sense. if you are going into a dangerous situation that that could create a bond. what could you say about the brotherhood despite you being a proud member and

someone who represents this lawsuit whichlawsuit which is kind of hated on-the-job? >> in terms of brotherhood, i have not felt much brotherhood on this job. within my specific company i do feel brotherhood. in terms ofin terms of the lawsuit, how people respond, it has been overwhelmingly negative. it is rare that a white firefighter will say something to me that is supportive of the fight we raise. rare to being almost nonexistent. this was done over the objections of not only the mayor but the commissioners, the leaders of the department, department,department, our union, and the rank-and-file white firefighters. i am so glad that this book has been written. exciting and riveting.

[applause] this can be used as a blueprint. and it can show what a grassroots effort can accomplish by using the power we have at hand. >> i cannot imagine a better ending than that one. >> one more. paul and mike have been at the spirit of this fight for quite a bit of time. this test was never validated. not only was it not validated, the amount of money that went out of the city to the suburbs, rockland county and here and they're that the city

desperately needed was unconscionable. we can't go to rockland county and become firefighters. we can even go to long island. those types of things are the reason why we felt as black people that our sons and daughters needed an opportunity to have jobs. our children should have an opportunity to benefit from the good paying jobs. it's a shame that the powers that be feel it is necessary to stop something that they know is right. [applause]

>> i think going back to the 9/11 comment and making the society look vilified, the firefighters should be outraged that they came on with the test i was not validated. i don't understand why they mad. the city did not do you justice by attest that you took. most of the tests. >> it wasn't. >> yeah. the one that came from the lawsuit technically came on

the right way. we all came on. the test that was validated and went through the proper channels. even though we are. we approve and it. that is just technically the truth. >> their stated goal was that they were advocating for black people to get these jobs. the biggest benefactors of their work is going to be the white firefighters because they by far take the test in the biggest numbers will you look at the people who were the most disenfranchised it was firefighters coming out in larger groups and a small a small percentage of getting on through test they really have no meaning. you know he got a 92.

no luck. >> how many folks, just raise your hand formerly are currently in the fire department, you or your family and been affected in terms of their efforts. >> a lot of folks. i think maybe a show of hands gives you an idea. thank you for being here. >> if we could just have a round of applause. [applause]