[inaudible conversations] >> as this program comes to a close, a quick reminder that you can watch it anytime if you missed any of it. watch it in our video library, go to c-span.org. and be sure to join us this afternoon at three eastern as we wring you a discussion -- wring you a discussion between the pkk and the turkish state.

turkey is prepping again for elections on november 1st. the wilson center is the host of this event this afternoon, and that'll be live at three here on c-span2. also coming up shortly on our companion network, c-span, democratic presidential candidate senator bernie sanders will be speaking at liberty university, and that will be in lynchburg, virginia, the same place republican senator ted cruz announced his presidential candidacy. senator sanders will be speaking at the con convocation, that'll start at 10:30 eastern. you'll be able to see it live on c-span, and following that we will open our phone lines to get your calls and reaction. also coming up tonight at 8:30 we've got a hearing examining the security of the u.s./mexico border with officials from the state department and border control agencies. here's a quick preview. >> to increase security, rule of law and justice in mexico is going to be a long-term battle.

i think that we have, we can see what has happened in colombia and the types of improvements that have been made there, and i think those are the types of improvements that we're going to have to help mexico make. i think we could talk more effectively about this in terms of the rams we have in place -- the programs we have in place, but i think continuing those types of programs to improve the judicial system, the training of the police, all those types of things are what's ultimately going to make this a safer location, safer country. >> thank you very much. >> before the gentleman yields back, i'll point out that there is no police force in knew wave slow laredo, there is none. it's run by the drug cartels. and shame on the state department for cutting those, the people's pay if they're from the state department. that's not the way you're going to build morale and do more things. you're given tens of billions of dollars, and you're going to cut

those poor people's pay. you can talk about training the local police force, but there isn't even a local police force to train. >> and you can see all of that hearing tonight at 8:30 eastern here on c-span2. >> tonight on "the communicators," gary epstein, chair of the fcc's incentive auction task force, will discuss the upcoming broadcast spectrum auction that will allow wireless companies to bid on airwave space. >> a congressional determination that was made in the spectrum act, and one thing i do want to emphasize, that we're not taking spectrum from broadcasters. it is a voluntary auction on behalf of the spectrum -- on behalf of the broadcasters. broadcasters consider, continue to be an extremely valuable service, but congress passed this act where broadcasters on a one-time-only basis will be able to relinquish their spectrum rights in return for a share of the reeds of the forward -- the proceeds of the forward auction. and so what it is, is congress'

determination and the fcc's implementation to use market forces to make available more low-band spectrum to meet wireless broadband needs. in other words, the need for broadband spectrum is burgeoning by multiples and exponentially. there isn't a lot of good low-band spectrum left, and this is a new and novel method congress has put in place and the fcc is to implement. >> tonight at eight eastern on "the communicators" on c-span2. >> the house education subcommittee on higher education held a hearing on combating sexual assault. one of the topics discussed centered on whether cases should be handled by the university or outside law enforcement and the criminal justice system. congresswoman virginia foxx chairs the subcommittee while congressman ruben hinojosa is

ranking member. >> welcome, everyone, to today's committee hearing. we are in a different location, and we are a little tighter in here today than we normally would be and ask everybody's indulgence as the renovation work goes on in the committee room. we'll all be be friendlier and kinder to each other today and closer to each other. i'd like to thank our witnesses for joining us to discuss an issue that affects far too many students, campus sexual assault. earlier this week as millions of students stepped foot on a college or university campus, members of congress returned from their districts to continue their work strengthening america's higher education system. as we all know, that effort often requires difficult but necessary conversations about tough issues which is why we're here today. every college student should be able to learn in an environment

that's free -- safe and free from fear and intimidation. yet for some students that is not the case. according to one study, approximately one in five women in college has been sexual aassaulted. several universities, including rutgers, michigan and mit, report similar findings, and a number of recent high profile cases further highlight the scope and seriousness of this important issue. as a former community college president, mother, grandmother, i know i'm not alone when i say that all of us have a responsibility to protect students from sexual assault on campus. as one university president explained, the issue of sexual assault keeps me awake at night. i feel personally responsible for the safety and well being of all students. another said i see the issue of sexual violence and sexual assault on colleges and universities as a matter of national importance.

students, or parents, educators, administrators and policymakers across the country share the same sentiment and have joined a national conversation about these heinous crimes and how we can better protect students. at the college and university level, efforts to prevent and respond to sexual assault are underway. for instance, some colleges and universities now require students to participate this seminars -- in seminars to help them understand what sexual assault is and how to prevent and report it. at the university of north carolina chapel hill, for example, these seminars reinforce the safe campus culture and explain university policies and procedures for responding to reports of sexual violence. institutions are are also improving how they support victims of sexual assault, providing resources and counseling services to help students recover from such a terrible event, complete their education and continue with their lives. just as important,

administrators are working to put in place a fair resolution process that respects the rights of the victim and the accused. at the national level, the federal government has been working with colleges and universities to prevent and respond to sexual assault for decades. more recently, members of congress have introduced proposals intended to improve protections for college students. additionally, the administration has established new policies institutions should follow. colleges and universities have rightly raised concerns about the administration's one-size-fits-all regulatory approach. while well intended, the administration has further complicated the maze of legal requirements added to the confusion facing students, administrators and faculty and made it harder for institutions to guarantee student safety. as dr. rue will explain during her testimony, the patchwork of federal and state policies has im'ded the efforts of -- impeded

the efforts of administrators and educators to prevent and respond effectively to sexual assault on their campus. as congress works to strengthen higher education, it must insure a tough, responsible policy is in place to fight these crimes and support the victims. i'm pleased to have a panel of witnesses to represent all sides of this difficult yet important discussion. your observations and recommendations are vital to our efforts to help colleges and universities provide students the safe learning environment they deserve. with that, i now recognize the ranking member, congressman heene owes saw, for his -- hinojosa, for his opening remarks. >> thank you, chairwoman foxx. i join you in welcoming our distinguished panel of witnesses. the subject of this hearing is extremely sensitive.

as ranking member of this subcommittee, i believe that we must raise the level of awareness in our communities and throughout our nation about the seriousness of campus sexual assault and its impact on our victims. both women and men and their families. these impacts are far reaching and include poor academic performance, stress, depression and abuse of alcohol and drugs. in addition to supporting the victim, we must also be sensitive to the rights of the accused. institutions of higher education must have processes that insure fairness in handling the allegations of campus sexual assaults and that campus investigations are consistent with our nation's longstanding principles of due process. whatever system is put in place, we must insure that victims are are not afraid to come forward.

unfortunately, many victims are reluctant to report sexual assaults because of shame or fear of retaliation or worries about lack of proof, uncertainty that what happened constitutes assault or possibly because they lack information on where or how to report the assault and fear of being treated poorly by the criminal justice system. as a nation, we have made progress towards better understanding in addressing this serious challenge of campus sexual assault. for example, through the development of the white house task force to protect students from sexual assaults, a department of justice's office of violence against women developed a multiyear initiative to provide support to programs to prevent campus sexual assault and their recent online resource

center for changing our campus culture. in the year 2007, the u.s. department of justice also funded a groundbreaking study on campus sexual assault. the findings of that study were staggering. let me give you some examples. amongst women in college, nearly 20% will be victims of attempted or actual sexual assault as will about 6% of undergraduate men. most victims were violated in their first or second year at college. the majority, 75-80%, knew their attackers, often a friend, a classmate, acquaintance or someone they dated. the study also confirmed that the risk of campus sexual assault for undergraduate women increases greatly with the consumption of alcohol and/or

drugs. it's clear our concerted efforts are needed to deal with these serious issues. in addition to this, to these federal efforts, i am proud to report that hi own home state of -- my own home state of texas is responding to calls of action. starting this year, colleges and universities are required to inform students of campus sexual assault policies during freshman orientation. schools are also required to review and update those policies every two years. students returning to class at the university of texas campuses this fall will also be participating in the nation's most comprehensive study on sexual assaults ever conducted in higher education. the cultivating learning and is safe environments case study will be led by researchers at ut austin's school of social work and will include online

questionnaires for students, surveys and focus groups of faculty, staff and campus law enforcement and a four-year cohort study of entering freshmen to identify the psychological and economic impact of sexual violence. the ut system is spending $1.75 million on this study. so i applaud ut's effort to address campus sexual assault and urge other colleges and universities throughout our country to join in the commitment to end sexual violence on their campuses. in closing, let us renew our efforts to support victims of campus sexual assault. we can't wait for yet another high profile incident to occur before we address this issue. i look forward to hearing what recommendations our panel of witnesses may have to reduce

sexual assault on our college campuses, and i thank you, and with that, madam chair, i yield back. >> thank you, mr. hinojosa. pursuant to committee rule 7c, all members will be permitted to submit written statements to be included in the permanent hearing record. and without objection to, the hearing record will remain open for 14 days to allow such statements and other extraneous material referenced momentum hearing -- during the hearing to be submitted for the official hearing record. it's now my pleasure to introduce our distinguished witnesses. ms. dana scaduto is the general counsel at dickenson college in carlyle, pennsylvania. previously, she was in private practice in harrisburg, pennsylvania, where she chaired her firm's educational law practice and represented several pennsylvania private colleges including dickenson. ms. scaduto is an active member of the national association of college and university attorneys

and a member of the legal services review panel of the national association of independent colleges and universities. dr. penny rue is vice president for campus life at wake forest university in winston-salem, north carolina. dr. rue is responsible for the well being and safety of wake forest university students and their education outside the classroom and is nationally known for her creative leadership in strengthening campus communities. ms. lisa maatz is vice president for government relations for the american association of university women, aauw, here in washington d.c. ms. many maatz previously spent 15 months serving concurrently as the interim director of the aauw legal defense fund. she'd done similar work in the older women's league. mr. joseph cohn is legislative and policy director at the foundation for individual rights

in education in philadelphia, pennsylvania. he's a former staff attorney for the united states court of appeals for the third circuit and law clerk in the court of common pleas. immediately prior to joining, mr. cohn served as the interim legal director for aclu affiliates in nevada and utah. i now ask our witnesses to stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? >> [inaudible] >> let the record reflect the witnesses answered in the affirmative. you may take your seat. before i recognize you to provide your testimony, let me briefly explain our lighting system. you have five minutes to present your testimony. when you begin, the light in front of you will turn green.

when one minute is left, the light will turn yellow. when your time has expired, the light will turn red. at that point i will ask that you wrap up your remarks as best as you are able. members will each have five minutes to ask questions. now, i want to recognize ms. scaduto for her comments. >> [inaudible] >> thank you. >> thank you, chairwoman foxx, and good morning. good morning, ranking member hinojosa and chairman kline. thank you for the opportunity to be here today. as a higher education senior administrator with a long history of involvement in the issue of sexual misconduct on our nation's campuses, i am here today because we share the committee's commitment to educating our nation's students in safe and supportive environments. american colleges and

universities are happy to work in partnership with the government and others on finding solutions that will help bring about cultural change and put an end to this host serious problem. most serious problem. as we move forward, i want to take a few minutes to share with you some of the challenges higher education is facing in our efforts and to propose some ways in which our government and this subcommittee can further help us achieve greater success in preventing and responding to sexual violence. as i make comments this morning, i will use the term victim out of expediency and because it's represented in the campus s.a.v.e. act but without personal preference to terminology. please recognize the reports of sexual violence we receive on our campuses are not straightforward or easy to resolve. the sexual violence claims we see most frequency do not involve force or attacks by strangers, but happen between individual ares who are acquainted, where one or both are intoxicated and where the primary issue is whether consent

to a sexual act was given. we are left to resolve conflicts between two people whose memories may be impaired and where there are no witnesses. add to this the fact that reports may not be made for day, weeks or months following an event, and i can hope you see the complexity of resolving such issues in a manner that the parties believe to be fair. and while speaking of fairness, colleges and universities are committed to providing fair treatment to all of our students, including not only victims of sexual violence, but also to those accused of sexual violence. the changes over the last four years have resulted in complexities and challenges in maintaining the necessary balance. for example, on a small campus removing an accused student from a class in order to keep the student away from an alleged victim before any determination of responsibility can be made may result in the accused student being forced out of a class where there are no other sections or being forced out of a class shortly before graduation. we're also often trying to

navigate the complexities of cleary and title ix laws, regulations and guidance as well as state laws simultaneously and without the confidence that we can do so to the satisfaction of all. employees' duties to report under various standards differ, what and how we are supposed to advise victims of their options for moving forward when they report a sexual assault are just two examples of those complexities. additionally, the current laws and guidance do not appear to recognize the college disciplinary proceedings are not equipped to replace law enforcement or judicial functions. the members of our campus be communities who are expected to meet and discharge the new standards established for resolving sexual violence claims are faculty, staff and historically students, not judges, nor lawyers. to support colleges and universities' efforts to improve culture around in this serious issue and to help us in our efforts to hold violaters accountable through processes that are fair, equitable and

partial, i recommend the following four points for your consideration. first, pause in considering legislation that adds additional requirements to those already complex network of federal and state laws, regulations and ocr guidance until there has been an opportunity to evaluate whether the efforts to date are working. as a reminder, the vawa regulations only went into effect july 1st of this year. second, consider creating a safe harbor for higher education that does not relieve us from accountability for failures to comply, but which provides us with certain presumptions of good faith when reviewing our conduct. for example, when we are applying fact-based tests established by various laws such as in deciding whether to investigate or not over a victim's objection. if we miss the heart attack but are found to have acted in good faith in our efforts, provide us with protection from penalties or administrative action. third, if new requirements are considered at some point in the future, ocr should follow notice

and comment requirements of the administrative procedures act. the title ix guidance put into place since 1991 -- since 2001 was done without notice or comment from parties outside the agency depriving colleges and universities, victims and survivors and other interested parties of the opportunity to provide input that may have been helpful in improving clarity and alignment with existing laws and regulations. i'll leave my fourth point for your reading. thank you for listening and considering my perspective as a higher education administrator. >> dr. rue, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, chairwoman foxx, ranking member hinojosa and honorable committee members for the opportunity to testify about this critically important issue. the higher education community takes the problem of campus sexual assault very seriously, and we are working diligently to

prevent sexual assault and to manage systems fair to all students. these are not new issues for us. it's been a priority for decades because of our genuine care for the health, safety and well being of our students. currently, we must address sexual violence compliance respondents under a swirl of -- responsibilities under a swirl of regulations. this one size fits all can create resource challenges that impede our effort to prevented and respond to sexual assault. attitude challenges now are state legislatures that are enacting statutes creating a patch work of conflicting regulations. prevention efforts are critical to reducing incidents of sexual violence. many campuses employ online modules, allow new students to participate in prevention programs at orientation and beyond. online training programs educate faculty and staff to whom students might report about where to turn. according to the cdc, bystander intervention training and social

norms training are promising practices but have not yet been validated through rigorous design. some more grant support is needed to conduct evaluation research in this growing field. at wake forest we use prepare pure educators to deliver highly interactive situational programs to put incoming students' attitudes to the test and really get them to think. a highly engaging peer theater program reinforces those messages and is followed by an online curriculum that uses scenarios highly relevant to students. this program haven will also give us benchmark attitudes that we can use to assess the effectiveness of our programs over time. after students have time to navigate the social scene, they'll participate in the program in their residence halls on bystander intervention training using the step-up model. campus climate surveys are another growing practice used to address students' perception of

and experience with sexual violence, and these surveys are designed to provide an institution-specific picture that in turn enables leaders to coordinate with the campus community to strengthen prevention efforts. one standardized survey imposed on all institutions would likely not accommodate the wide array of campus environments. the range from four-year residential like my own to community colleges and even primarily online universities. each institution should have the autonomy to develop the best survey given benchmarks to hit. although prevention strategies are in place, sexual violence will still occur on our campuses. student affairs administrators are committed to being fair and balanced to all of our students engaged in the conduct process. critical to this process is the widely-established practice of confidentiality for the victim and the accused. one of the primary reasons that a student will choose an on-campus practice over reporting to the police. one of our most important points in trauma-informed work is to

allow the survivor the right to choose the path to follow in the wake of an incident. some may want to report to the campus, some may want to report to the police or both. some may only want support. the institution really needs to respect that choice, to take the decision out of the victim's hand by mandating that a report of sexual violence to campus automatically is turned over to the police will create a chilling effect on the willingness of victims to come forward. exactly the opposite of what we want to happen. the confidentiality of our conduct practices creates uncertainty about their fairness. we know that. most recently towards the respondent. but it's important to reiterate the campus processes are carefully structured to be fair and equitable to all parties. in the recent washington post/kaiser family foundation poll, 84 percent of current and recent college students said they are very or somewhat confident in the school administration's ability to

address complaints. we are not a court of law. ours is an educational process intended to arrive at a fair and equitable outcome for all parties. at the core of this distinction is our standard of scrutiny, repond answer of the evidence. preponderance of the evidence. i think i speak for most colleges and universities in saying that we do not need more regulation, we need more consultation. guidance from the department of education coming without notice often does not help us navigate these waters. i strongly believe it is important to provide opportunities for public comment and discussion where the full complexity of the issues can be explored from those who know them firsthand. in closing, i must express deep concern about the narrative from the media that colleges and universities care more about their institutions' reputation than the rights and experiences of our students. nothing could be further from the truth. instead, those of us who handle incidents of sexual violence are

professionals who share an overwhelming commitment to strike the delicate balance in today's legislative environment to preserve the educational rights of students, to manage fair and equitable conduct and assistance and, above all, to prevent sexual violence. thank you, chairwoman. >> thank you very much, dr. rue. ms. maatz, you're recognized for five minutes. >> good morning. on behalf of the more than 170,000 members -- is that on? there we go. good morning. on behalf of the more than 170,000 members, over 1,000 branches and almost 900 college and university partners of the american association of university women, i thank you for inviting us to testify today. my remarks are informed by my 12 years with aauw as well as my tenure as executive director of turning point, a domestic violence program recognized for excellence by the ohio supreme court. and also at wittenberg university where i was a hall director and ran a women's center that responded to

incidents of sexual assault. i can personally attest to the fact that this is not a new problem. when campus environments are hostile because of sexual harassment and violence, students can't learn. it's that simple and that devastating. schools have an important and necessary role to play in addressing this epidemic. why? because student rights to an education free of sex discrimination are on the line. aauw's own research revealed nearly two-thirds of college students experienced sexual harassment. just this year a national poll found one in five women said they'd been sexual sexual ai salted in college. ..

>> all schools should have a title i coordinator to oversee these activities as well as monitor patterns and address systemic problems. these requirements are not new. they date back to philosophers regulations in 1975. over the course the republican and democratic administration the department of education has continued to provide technical assistance that promotes compliance with the law. schools fall and consumer protection law known as the

clarity act. it requires universities to participate in federal financial programs to disclose crime statistics and security information. originally passed in 1990, congress updated the clue to act as part of a bipartisan reauthorization of violence against women act. these updates of our schools to report additional crime statistics on domestic violence, dating domestic violence, dating violence asked occupied ongoing sexual assault prevention and bystander intervention training. these efforts are with students and parents to provide insight to schools working to improve campus safety. title ix our long-standing complementary laws the work together to ensure the students and schools had a clear course of action and sexual violence the critical public schools are not in the business of imposing criminal punishment. those decisions are best left to authoritiauthoriti es in charge of criminal investigation and prosecution. if a survivor chooses to pursue that course the schools civil

rights pursue any criminal investigation represent parallel yet equal necessary path. laws to -- spell out the requirements for schools be propped fair and impartial in all disciplinary proceedings. title ix echoes these due process requirements. declared act requires school processes be prompt, fair and impartial and that both parties receive timely notice regarding the outcomes of proceedings. there are next up congress can take to help schools and instane and efforts to in sexual harassment. we know the time following an incident is especially critical for survivors. they get access to save space, medical care and counseling and information about the rights and where they can seek additional support. schools should ensure an adviser israel to connect survivors to all of these resources. the aauw campus act would ensure schools take these critical steps. climate surveys can help schools

better to understand the dynamics behind reported and unreported incidents of sexual violence. schools need information or to effectively combat this epidemic. when done well climate surveys provide transparency that is crucial for student safety and a useful tool to help schools fine tune of the response. to a uw support would require surveys at all schools. finally, we urge congress to provide additional resources for the department of education to support title ix coordinators on relevant laws and best practices. there are schools working diligently to respond to incidents of sexual violence and technical assistance can help to make real change. with more attention to sexual violence we've also seen an uptick in complaint and an unprecedented number of schools are under investigation for a title i complaints. the office of civil rights it additional funding to provide ongoing technical assistance for schools as well as told bad actors accountable.

we believe i think a single incident of sexual violence is one too many. when interviews with students education it adds insult to injury but where the tools to make real change and we look forward to working with you as you reauthorize the higher education act and consider this important topic. thank you. >> thank you. esther cohen, you are recognized for five minutes. >> chairwoman foxx, ranking member hinojosa, honorable members of the subcommittee and members of the committee at large, thank you for the introduction. imv policy director. we are a nonpartisan nonprofit organization dedicated to defending student and faculty civil liberties on america's college campuses. i thank you for the operatives discuss this critical issue. one of the core constitutional rights, that transport defenses due process good universities are both morally and legally

obligated to respond to instances of sexual assault in a manner reasonably calculated to prevent its recurrence. answer more than 50 years, courts repeatedly have held that the constitution requires public institutions to provide meaningful due process protections to iq students. f.i.r.e. believes that these twin obligations did not be intentioned. access to higher education is critical. stakes are extremely high for everybody in campus disciplinary proceedings and is essential that no students education is curtailed unjustly. while efforts to address campus sexual assault have focused on eliminating bias against complainants, far too little attention has been placed on preventing bias against the accused, and even more insufficient attention has been placed on addressing what i call the competency gap to the difference between what college administrators are equipped to do and what the department of

education's office for civil rights is demanding of them. campuses are ill-suited to adjudicate allegations of sexual assault. while college and universities have a role to play in tackling the issue, we must make sure that we are assigning them responsible is there capable of performing well. having defended campus due process for 15 years, f.i.r.e. is convinced colleges are equipped to serve as investigators and factfinders in these challenging issues. rape is a crime. it should be treated as such. using amateur systems is insulting to victims and disasters to fundamental fairness. unsurprisingly and justice for victims and accused is commonplace. sound public policy requires adjudicating these cases in court after professional investigations. only courts have the power to take 500 is off the street. after all, still has been expelled but not jailed this week you can rape again.

complicating matters further in april for 2011 dear colleague letter which was not subject to public comment, the agency mandated institutions to adjudicate sexual assault cases using the low preponderance of evidencofthe evidence standard. ocr while well-intentioned has done more harm than good in this arena. since issuing the 2011, and if conducted of 130 title ix investigations. several of which have resulted in a settlement agreement. to the best of our knowledge on one such investigation is looking into whether the disciplinary process is biased against the district the resulting perception of top down federal fights against the accused is inescapable. i would like to briefly address three bills currently pending before congress. to campus for chemical and safety act, a safe campus act and the fair campus act. there are aspects of each veterans and support and

provisions in each that gives f.i.r.e. posted on the positive side all three bills aim to increase the involvement of law enforcement. if our goal is to implement a serious response to a serious problem involving professionals in the criminal justice system is necessary. f.i.r.e. is multiple concerns. chief the bill provides no meaningful process would be too. none. converse with a safe campus act and fair campus act both include important procedural safeguards that will benefit you students and complainants electric what's more, they would repeal ocrs preponderance of the evidence of mandate, provide the complaint crucial rights can active assistance of counsel of our institutions to turn over evidence to both sides. to encourage more complainants report allegations the proper authority to safe campus act bravest institutions from taking action on complaints unless they choose report the allegations law enforcement. f.i.r.e. agrees that punitive measures should be waived if the

complainant does not report the acquisition to long force but for investigation. we urge congress to amend the language so non-punitive measures and accommodations may be made available regardless of the student decision to report. while college is improving incapable -- they are well-equipped to secure counseling for allegedly to provide academic and housing accommodations, figured necessary medical attention and provide general guidance for students as they navigate the criminal justice system. institution should perform these functions. the build should be amended to encourage them to do so. i provide more detailed analysis of the bills in my written testimony to the committee. to some up, there's no simple solution to the problem of sexual assault on campus but lowering the bar and eliminating criminal due process protections, by doing that we are creating a system that is impossible for college to administer fairly. congress can help reverse this

by taking all student interest into account. to accomplish that congress should include the best aspects of each been a bill into congress of balanced measure. thank you again for the opportunity to address you, and i look forward to answering your questions. >> they very much. i would now like to recognize chairman of the committee, chairman klein, for five minutes or. >> thank you, madam chair. and thanks for holding him. thanks to all the witnesses for being here, real expert and excellent testimony. i picked up again if i can use that term when i was listening to both ms. scaduto and dr. rue about complexity. somebody ca, i think it was a dr. rue used the word swirl of regulation and a patchwork of regulations and ms. scaduto and her recommendations, the one

veteran, oral, says harmonized standards obligations come expectations under title ix. it does seem to me that it is confusing because you have different statues with different requirements. and i have great confidence that everybody in this room sitting out there, sitting there, sitting in the gallery, so to speak, wants to find a way to eliminate such assaults on campus. and should it occur to make sure that we are holding perpetrators accountable and providing support and protection for victims, but it does seem to be complex. i would just go to you, ms. scaduto come in part because i live in a beautiful town of carlisle for a while but it's a beautiful part of the country and of the state. my son graduated from carlisle high school so i've got his tie i've just got to go to carlisle.

engages karl -- anyway, a long story. are you concerned that the emphasis that is being placed, focusing place on complying with these different federal laws, regulations and guidance is detracting from the ability to do what's in the best interest of your students? [inaudible] >> i apologize. yes, we are. i think it's a concern shared not only on dickinson campus in carlisle but on the canvas is around the country. if we were able to harmonize, and we understand that the publication of legislation and regulation is done with the best of intentions in protecting our students and physical we support. but when we're spending our time trying to harmonize our compliance with the very statute, it takes away from what i think we as educators excel. and that is in educating. and that is on the side of

prevention and training a dr. rue spoke so eloquently about. when we have a different reporting requirements, for example, under clery end of the the ocr guidance, we have the same group of employees who are interacting with the same students but we're getting different standards for who must report and what they must report when millard of an incident of sexual misconduct. and when that type of analysis detracts from getting a report made at this point a report made at this point a student in need, it's problematic. there are ways to improve harmonization such as the notice and comment period that could be used by ocr when it enacts new guidance. because even fair, there's distinct differences between that and the aauw -- the vawa regulations or the clery regulations from simple.

it does take us off the real important work we need to do around this issue. >> thank you very much. i yield back. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i know recognize the ranking member. >> tremblant and ranking member hinojosa for calling this hearing on preventing and responding to sexual assault on college campuses the this issue of campus safety is foremost in the minds of american families as they send their children away to college. congress in 2000 i declared september the national campus safety awareness month to help bring awareness to incidents of campus rape, mass shootings and other forms of violence at educational institutions. 25 years ago congress passed the clery act two-part institutions of higher learning to report campus crime statistics and to publish campus safety and security policies. we know the issue of campus sexual assault is complex. nevertheless, a timeline and the clery act require once a school

knows or recently shadow of a possible sexual violence, a mistake appropriate action to investigate or otherwise determine what occurred. unfortunate campus sexual assault is usually addressed only after there's an alleged incident. we have to have meaningful procedures to hold accountable those who commit sexual assault but we also must do more to try to prevent them from occurring in the first place. to teach safe relations act of 2015 introduced by senator tim kaine of my home state of virginia would require that health education and public secondary education, public schools include learning not just biology but also safe relationship behavior in that preventing sexual assault, domestic violence in dating

files. currently federal officer require health and sex education classes to include information regarding these relationships which can prevent sexual assault. there's also study published in the june 2015 new england journal of medicine that found that college women who participate in an intensive program showing students how to recognize and resist sexual aggression reduce the chance of being raped by nearly 50% and attempted rape by 62%. we know that funding is also an issue, and funding is needed to implement educational programs and robust enforcement of all civil rights laws on campus. the department of education funding has decreased, flatline over the years and agency staff in public is the lowest it's been in 34 years. despite having a record of nearly 10,000 civil rights complaints. we can do more to train campus public safety personnel and support evidence-based research to strengthen called safety and

security and have a clearinghouse for dissemination of relevant campus public safety information. as an example national center for campus public safety in january 2015 conducted its first pilot program offered in the course and richmond, virginia, to develop a trauma informed sexual assault investigation and adjudication of training for campus officials, including title i coordinators, advocates, go council and others. let me ask this question to all of the witnesses. some have alluded to some of the things we can do. can the witnesses talk about, i know we're going to talk about what to do after the fact the what kind of strategies to do before the fact to reduce campus assaults because that's an excellent question. working on relationships and students understanding of safe relationship is key. doing that before they get to call it is also important. our research shows sexual

harassment ed bolen as prevalent in k-12 schools starting the quite frankly with preschool. to have a conversation about safe relationships, having the curriculum about how to talk about the issues and also encouraging students to look at themselves as someone who can help. look at the bystander intervention kinds of models have been really successful. the cdc studies have shown that when you really do relationship education, and emphasis on safe and healthy relationships can you do start to erode campus sexual assault. you do need to start younger it needs to be consistent, ongoing, it is something we need to get behind. >> are you doing with senator kaine still? >> i am. >> could you make a comment about? >> it is a bill that aauw supports. i think it's more to look at the curriculum across the country. and minuses bee we know we haves

epidemic of campus sexual assault, starting young is great they're doing it in high school is fine but also would submit you probably need to start in elementary school. >> let me just add briefly that the research is inconclusive because rarely do we have the opportunity to do random assignments of subject to a group which is where you can get really rigorous testing. samore support for research in this area would really be useful. we have what we know and what cdc calls promising practices but we don't actually have an effectiveness. >> thank you, madam chair. >> thank you very much. dr. rue, you mentioned the importance of prevention and education efforts on campus and reducing incidents of sexual assault. do you have written evaluations that you can provide us on the results of those efforts? and could you give us just a

thumbnail of the greatest, what has had the greatest impact on the campus safety climate, from what you have experienced? >> yes, ma'am. thank you for the question. the two most promising practices are bystander intervention training and social norms during the bystander intervention training, people learn the steps it takes to disrupt or interrupt what looks like it's going to be problematic behavior. the truth is pure is often able to do this but they need the courage to essentially change the code, if you will, of what is agreed upon this appropriate social behavior. this is an effective. again we haven't studied that shove random assignment subject to groups we call it a promising practice. the other practice is the social norms practiced and what that does is it looks at the gap between what people think and what people think other people

think. it contributes to things such as rape myth. when you can ask through research as a woman drinking too much suggests that she wants to have sex? you can actually measure that and you'll find that people think, other people think that but they don't think that themselves. so you can go back to campus without gap and combat those norms that are actually creating a hostile environment. >> thank you very much. mr. cohen, in your testimony he made the important point that rape is crime and should be treated as such. how confusing what you call amateur systems on campus lead to unjust as for both victims and accused his? >> thank you for the question. the primary way, the way the status quo works, harms both the accused students and the complainants is that we get unreliable findings because the

people adjudicating cases don't have the right tools to do it. the same people would be fine on juries are doing, you have deans of physics departments come in which professors and sophomores can't figure out if a rape occurred. they are doing it without forensic evidence, without the subpoena power, without the ability to put witnesses under oath. they are doing it without rules of evidence to make sure that relative information is included and irrelevant is excluded the idea they would get it right consistent with all of those limitations is a fantasy. so the primary thing that we can do is make sure that we ask people to applicable that they're confident to go to comp when the accident of the skills and what they bring to the table and works together. that's what i mean when i say amateur effects injustices. >> ms. scaduto, you mentioned

your a negotiator and will making process for a publication for vawa. could you tell us more about that experience and how you believe the opportunity for stakeholders to contribute to the development of the regulation resulted in clear and more transparent expectations for schools, especially in contrast to some regulatory guidance? >> happy to do so, chairwoman foxx. through the rulemaking there was a group of ugly or teen, 20 with our alternates, were very much part of the process. we represented divergent points of views. every few, however, being equally committed to deal with the issue of sexual violence. we have higher education administrators dr. witt at the table. we have council like me. we had security officers from higher ed eric we had survivors and victims of rape, male and they know both represent.

we get advocacy groups at the table. and we did very hard work. we came together over a three-month period, and we looked at proposed language brought by the department of education and by the opportunity to talk about whether we should drill down in a particular area and impose a single standard on a particular issue and talk about them as dr. rue mentioned earlier, the fact that we need language which is good because colleges and universities are so different across this country, large, small, public, private, online, commuter come all the different issues and it difficult work but am confident that the product we ended up with at the end of that process was a better reflection of the wider community in rules and regulations t that work on colle campuses than without it. >> thank you very much. mr. hinojosa, i recognize you for five minutes.

>> thank you. my first question is do ms. lisa maatz. you state in your statement that you read to us that current law requires schools to respond to campus sexual assault because a students civil rights are on the line. you also said that a school civil rights investigation in any law enforcement criminal investigation represent parallel and equally necessary paths. can you please explain the parallel tracks of title nine enforcement interact as compared with criminal investigations, and why is it so important for the victim to get to decide whether he or she wants to present a criminal investigation as opposed to campus this plenary process? >> well, thank you very much for the question. i think there is great confusion between what a criminal process looks like and what the civil rights process on a college campus is supposed to look like.

college campuses are not supposed to be nor do we expect him to be enforcing criminal law. what they're doing is looking at civil rights. has timeline been violated? as a woman come in this case, as their education been impacted and, therefore, she can't obviously take advantage of her civil rights to a six disc mission for education? so richly in that sense that our parallel track but very different. schools can't send people to jail. schools were look at enforcing student code of conduct. before when we were talking about the notion of kind of amateur court, i do take exception to that in many respects on behalf of schools because they have been teasing with their at enforcing their code of conduct for decades and some hundred inches. they know how to do that. where there is confusion as i think when it comes to campus sexual assault schools are supposed to begin with the civil rights impact not just on the

individual student about impacts to campus as a whole. that's different than the criminal proceedings that we've talked about. >> thank you. ms. scaduto, you said that colleges and universities were very concerned that despite their best efforts to follow applicable laws and guidance from achieving full compliance is not possible. and you also said proposing, creating safe harbors for colleges are not held liable under title nine if they can show good faith efforts to meet the requirements of conflicting provisions. can you help me understand how creating such a safe haven would reduce and help prevent instances of campus sexual assault speak was certainly, mr. hinojosa. is my privilege to do so. let's take example from the i couple of examples i can give you. if you take the ocr guidance,

and yet we are supposed to advise a victim of her rights to report. clery uses the language we have to use the link was not reported is there an intended difference between those? when you put those, you take that and you put up against the state law or if you take clery encountered by an individual provide not to report but there's a state law that mandates reporting a felony by the institution, have we created a conflict between, in executing on a plan that everyone wants the same outcome but we have this world of differences and werwe're not quite sure how to comply with all of them. and in our best efforts to do so, if we err by reporting under the state law when we have clery telling us where to report, advised the woman, victim of a right not report, provide us with protection and support that

is in our best efforts to comply we missed the market, that we won't be held accountable for penalties are agency action. that's just one example. >> thank you. mr. cohn, time is running out. and as i heard your presentation, brought back memories of what is approximate 20 years of service on this committee, congresswoman patsy mink from hawaii led a group of numbers of congress to focus on title ix. there was a mindset throughout the country, especially from some certain states, that wanted, that title ix removed or weekend so that it would not be a problem for them. ..

is not removed from society. they are free to walk the streets. street. it isn't safe for either. the truth of the matter is the schools need schools needed to not be in different claims and make sure they can provide the kind of services necessary to make sure they can get an education. and it isn't tied to being a factfinder. >> the list of universities throughout the country was in violation under investigation right now has doubled, tripled and quadrupled or so i think

that we in congress need to address this. this is a complicated and difficult situation and i think probably i'm the only one who's examined women for sexual assault and testify that the court lifelong job as an opt debate co- obstetrician is incredibly difficult, complicated issue you all are dealing with and you brought out a couple of points that hit me. requirements we have from the state if i examine a woman in the emergency room i break the state law if they do not report that. this is a student and they are in conflict and i think it is a great pressure on you to know if you are doing the right thing.

we have the protective rights of each one that i can tell you i've dealt with patients over decades but don't with the consequences of the sexual assault. and it's life-changing. how do deal with this is incredibly important and i think the start you all made was early on the education is absolutely the key to prevention. we show to prevent that and the results into the incidents were greatly. i don't know if it is greater now. i think the crime has been crying has been there all along and it just has been grossly underreported. a couple things i would like to know and i will start with you you are absolutely right to

gather this information. i've done it meticulously before. it's difficult to do the protective rights of everybody involved and i know you mentioned we are dealing with a civil criminal rights issue. when do you determine to turn this over to the police because it is a criminal act. >> that is one of the key questions of the debate is what is the appropriate role of law enforcement. it does require they are aware of it and can reach out and offer the services they provide. one thing that we know and it's a fact there are 72 hours to have a rape kit done in 42 hours to get blood collected to conjure with some of those drugs against their will or if they were so intoxicated they could have consented. once the timeframe is relaxed, the window is gone to have the physical evidence.

fire primarily believes that they will get the help by getting the right professionals plugged in as quickly as possible. that's the way to build trust with the law enforcement is to make sure to get the information as fast as possible when they can take the best and the strongest actions and strongest actions and it will also help the falsely accused to have information recorded quickly. >> we have seen over time with new evidence and evidentiary ratings we've had where people have been falsely accused and obviously you want to process. what resources do you have for the student male or female. >> thank you for the question. it's a life-changing event and i sat with many students in the

process. we have confidential advisors that are available to go know if the student is in the emergency room. this is a person that reaches out and establishes trust if the first question someone is asked by their friends about their own behavior they are likely to completely shut down. someone that is trauma informed in the counseling technique can create that bond and then the company throughout whatever process it is whether it is

sitting through the police investigation or building to the housing department to make room changes and that is the most important bond and the most important role on campuses today. >> my time is expired but one thing i want you you all to think about is how can we streamline this so that you're not checking boxes with taking care of students. i appreciate your commitment. >> thank you doctor adams i would like to recognize that for five minutes. >> chairman, ranking member for holding this important meeting and also to the witnesses testimony and a special shout out.

it's a very serious issue and affects too many of the students and to be clear even one is too many and so i believe that prevention through education is the best way to combat this problem and i appreciate speaking to that. we must still deal with the incidents that occur but that is nearly impossible to deal with all the different ways in which the institutions of higher education and law-enforcement agencies handle sexual assault and it's becoming more complicated with us. although north carolina does not have a significant number of incidents currently opened, the case opened at the university of north carolina chapel hill that is particularly disturbing and i'm disappointed that there is a case that is open in my city of greensboro at the university at guilford college. i spent 40 years as a faculty member on campus, a small

women's college barely african-american women in greensboro and they have ongoing concerns then and i still do. just for a moment on the effects of women of color according to the centers for disease control approximately 34% of the native american indian women and 22% of 14.6% of hispanic women are survivors of sexual violence. they have pretty good resources. can each of you speak to the campuses for the cultural specific prevention education for the minority students who might be dealing with the weight of other issues like racial discrimination and economic

disparity. i appreciate your question. we do take their responsibilities to all students very seriously. we know one size doesn't fit all. with our african-american students we have a peer mentoring program that creates a tightknit bond with the resource upper-class students coming and we have an increasing number of first-generation students who didn't attend college if we have the first and fourth programs that really help those students navigate as well. we do try to utilize the best research to understand the differential impact and also to get within the culture. we have the specialized training for the african-american the african american men and in the

healthy choices and habits called mandatory. right now we are putting in place the issue so prevalent is getting all of our students trained and it's using things like green dot and. within the same vein do you have any recommendation are there less resources or less to ask. there's a the crisis hotline, domestic crisis hotlines to help

with the preventions and potentially begin confidential advisors which is a great best practice. and to the women of color we need to be really sensitive especially about mandatory reporting. we know there are issues of the gender bias and the mandate to law-enforcement as a great way to ensure that they don't report to anybody or they don't get any help or they don't get any support. we need to be culturally competent about that and sensitive and i think that it's one of the reasons quite frankly they sent a letter to the justice asking them to create new guidance in the policing to deal with some of the different things the women of color were facing.

on the higher education reform and the situation i have a son in college. we leave them on campus and drive away and we want to make sure that we are doing everything we can and you are doing everything you can to make sure they are in a safe place. so it's going to be good for us. any harmonizing requirements i was in the state senate when there's the requirement added we are reacting to something that happened in trying to prevent it and moving forward and sometimes you get different bills that have been at different times and requirements and that should be an opportunity for us all to say what is this report is trying to accomplish and pretend and how can we harmonize them and give it together, said that it's important to do.

but you talked in your written testimony about how they don't necessarily comply. it's difficult to work around with nontraditional campuses and students. would you care to elaborate and talk about how that is difficult if we need a system to take care of that we want to see how these requirements make it difficult to comply. >> it would greatly appreciate framework. it goes back to the one-size-fits-all. for example the differences in how in the training and education of different constituencies on various campuses let's just take for example if it were determined by good research that having students in a chair to receive training on sexual violence prevention is the best message you are a commuter campus and community college where the students don't live there and

you don't have the opportunities to reach them outside of the classroom as you do on a residential campus. if you are an online school. and the perspective kept popping up and i have to admit it's like i haven't thought about that. if a part of the cohort that raises the risk of sexual violence on the campus or is it the 18 to 22-year-olds that live in the residence? these are all complexities of the differences in who we are versus as institutions how the most effectively reach those that need the information if we are going to engage in cultural change in cultural shift. we have to have the flexibility of the various campuses across the country to reach those different audiences and

different ways. >> i was going to ask you to elaborate more on the prevention because that is where we are. we know we have to have the systems but elaborate on that prevention that you mentioned earlier and then the ones that are most effective. >> and going to turn to some work for to somewhat by the center of disease control by this end they have nine principles of effective sexual misconduct prevention programs. the first is that it's comprehensive. it's multiple methods with various teaching strategies. we know people learn differently through active engagement and others learned or theoretically. sufficient dosage, opportunity over time to deal with these issues they have a foundation in theory that they foster positive relationships. they are not focused on what's

not what not to do but instead what to do that in that the time is developed and if you are getting ready to graduate first is if you were just arriving in the development of needs that are different they are culturally relevant as the representative suggested that we understand the different backgrounds students bring to us and there's an outcome evaluation as well as the well-trained staff so that's what they had. i would say without getting into the curriculum it is difficult to get into the periods of long time. we are usually working in a voluntary workshop format for students in the prevention programs. so i did say curricular innovations in this area would be very welcome. >> you want them to have the experience of the lifetime and want them to be safe and secure.

you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you madam chair and all of you for being here today. i understand. we introduced a number of bills to try to get it to this issue not so easy and i have a few colleagues here from the armed services committee that no and understand that. one of the things that we have been talking about here which is really critical is the support for victims men and women to

have access. you mentioned batch, informed but highly professional individual who really can help victims navigate the system and provide the kind of options available to them whether it is reporting or nonreporting and what that means actually for them. a student that chooses not to report to have the services to receive the services or are there bills that actually do tie the opportunity for victims to be informed by someone who is highly trained in this area and quite frankly i'm not sure that we are there yet in terms of the highly trained but at least we know where we have to go with it

>> if i could respond quickly, the safe campus act has its mandatory provision. it's to amend the provisions we all of them on punitive measures on the table. the ones that you've identified. it is a good idea to have the campuses make sure the police are investigating so we think it is a good idea to limit the punitive responses. >> i am going to respectfully disagree. >> we know that again that ability to navigate to that confidential victim support person is the most critical and if the universities are mandated to report criminally we know that it's going to have a

chilling effect on people even getting to the very first resource to help. the truth is most students do not want to go through a law enforcement interview. experience teaches us that they look for violence, signs of struggle. they don't understand the nuance. they tend to minimize. if you've read the book it provides a beautiful picture of what happens when individuals report in that setting the kind of questions they are asked, the kind of doubt it is cast upon them. and again it has a chilling effect, and it causes many to shut down. >> and addressing the harmonizing issue that we mentioned earlier in terms of how the universities and institutions deal with it. >> i think the mandatory reporting absolutely has a chilling effect if you are looking for a way to not have students report, not only just to the school but also to the

law enforcement to make its mandatory. part of it is to create an environment on the campus that supports reporting and if it is going to be supported for students it needs to actually be helpful to them and that kind of reporting only hope that individual students but it helps the campus in terms of creating --. they brought special advocates on campus and the university of california systems. in the military system is the fact that people generally become more knowledgeable about this process and it has been a very well-kept secret in the past and i think that it has contributed to the fact that it is a fearful system and that is

what we are trying to get away from. they are part of the sexual misconduct working group helping you are recognized for five minutes. like my colleague the gentle lady from california, i was struck by a lot of similarities between what you are experiencing on campuses and what we are experiencing in the military which in and of itself is an epidemic of the assault. in your comment you talked about things that are very similar, not straightforward or easy to resolve and do not involve attacks by strangers but individuals that are acquainted and the questions about the consent for days, weeks and

months and the survivor has the right to choose the path within the wake of an incident some reporting on campus or some other law enforcement similar to the military restricted and unrestricted reports it's not referred to law enforcement that it allows the victim to partake of the support necessary to help them heal. the question i have, has there been any review of what might be best practices in the military realizing we are not there yet either but any best practices that might have been implanted in the response in the epidemic of sexual assault that has an application of what is being done in the campuses. >> i need to learn more about what they've done and i am eager to do so. >> we've seen an increase in the reporting in the military and part of the reason for that is the conversation being had. there's now a top-down as well

as bottom-up conversation being had to come come in various training going on that makes all the difference in the world. the prevention is key and those are all good lessons that we can use for the campus sexual assault. >> i can say that one interesting parallel is that last year we heard a lot of chatter about how the military tribunals shouldn't be at adjudicating these matters because of the potential for the bias and that instead it should be removed to civil courts. the same argument i have been making for you today which is that the campuses maybe shouldn't be at adjudicating the facts because of the potential for the bias and we should be relying on professionals in courts. question for my own edification. the victim on the campus chooses not to report to law enforcement that comes to the campus authority to receive the support of services. does that automatically result in that case going forward for a disciplinary hearing on a

college campus? >> know it does not. it is a very insightful question. the best guidance that we get dealing effectively with survivors tells us that they needed to decide if they want to go forward when they want to go forward and how. all of the guidance is inconsistent if we get the guidance both under "mandates that we give them their options and tell them and it's funny as i listened to the conversation from the congresswoman and others about the report committees banging around in my head because we use the report on campuses and it means someone coming forward and telling someone that they report and that is at its essence and if they do that and we wrapped our arms around them as a community and make sure they get the resources they want and they know their options.

and if they want confidential reporting we can drift into that but if they tell us that report doesn't move forward under most circumstances whether it is internally for the conduct process or externally in law enforcement or both without their consent and participation there are exceptions as you can expect you know there are exceptions if we had an ongoing threat to the community we might have to move forward without the consent of the person that brought the report forward and that is also an example of why the safe harbors are important. if we are being guided by the victims but we have an ongoing thread on the campus being protected from action by the administrative agencies would be helpful. >> is a graduate of college in

the sun and a son started his junior year i think you all for what you're doing to make the campuses of safer place. >> thank you madam chair. i do want to say consistent with some of the leaks, thank you for having me. i think the hearing helps to draw attention to what i feel is an urgency and i think everyone else does. i hear a great commonality about the desire to take effective action and we are struggling with what that is. and also as a parent that dropped two kids off at college, the passage all of us have shared in the conveyance of that trust that we put in the institutions that we leave them at and the expectation that these wonderful institutions will not just educate them that provide a culture where they feel safe and they are not the situation put in the situation of either being a victim or

bystander. a lot of this conversation reminds me of the early '90s when i was in local government. a lot of the conversations we had reminded me very specifically of the challenges, and even though we have to be careful of our approach is because we are all subject to opinions about the relationships between men and women. so when we look at the history of the domestic violence we know a lot now from the 20 years since 1994 when the federal government took the leadership role and past the violence against women's act that was recently reauthorized and i remember talking to the mandated

reporters particularly educators in high school who struggled with many of the same issues that you do although they have the cultural professional in silver -- insular college campus. >> i share your sense of the flashback. when i was the executive director of the shelter program in ohio, it was during the o.j. simpson trial and during the first efforts to pass the violence against women act so it felt like there was a national teaching on domestic violence and people were talking about it and i see that bright spotlight today on the campus sexual assault many of the same things are happening and it is being very much driven by survivors and advocates that feel the time has come and that is also very

similar. we have a lot more data about how violence occurs and we have the police and law enforcement that have a lot more data and experience but i would also continue to stress when we talk about the campus sexual assault we want to be mindful of the fact that we are dealing with that as a civil rights issue and we need to be concerned about the access to an education that does not contain discrimination. we know too often that survivors will have problems and often times will drop out and that obviously is an interference in their education. some of them their grades go down and then they lose their scholarships and they are the ones that are not on campus. as if it is something we need to be mindful of.

there is the criminal element we need to talk about and harmonized at the same time they are separate and distinct. we know from domestic violence the causality in the multi-generational aspects of this so the sooner we get regulations) are and i would apply them based on that history and others that the federal government does have an appropriate role making sure that it's effective is what we are all talking about. we know from the incoming student surveys that students have already been in several relationships and already had relationships that were controlling and left them with self-doubt so we do support and

we do understand it is a multi-generational issue if students don't have excellent role models to look to, where do we find that. so we would love the department of education to engage the k-12 system in these conversations as well. >> my first question is there any data that we can access that would deal with a victim that has initially chosen not to report to law enforcement that leader regrets them and decides they want to report it to law enforcement and want once the individual prosecuted is there any data on that? >> there is an absence of the

data entry to be may choose not to bring the case forward why they made that decision all the time. sometimes it could be because of outdated modes of thinking about women and stereotypes but other times it could be because of the spoiling of evidence. we simply don't track that and that's a major concern and to get the right medical -- >> that's one of my big concerns talking to the doctor that has dealt with a lot of victims didn't have to examine them. the individuals that decide they don't want that person prosecuted despite they do -- deicide they do. and i have concerns about going to the university or college and maybe the counselor and advisor talking about the prosecuting

for the alleged perpetrators career whatever the case may be worry about the fact that an individual who decides not to prosecute or not to report to the law enforcement all of the forensics are lost. the version six isn't there because it was never reported to law enforcement and people that ended up dealing with it didn't have the capability to put a case together in the first place. >> one aspect is that there is no way to build up more trust with police van to work with them. we can't fix the problem is there's if there's a problem in the system that needs to be tackled. they are conservative about the effect of having a police officer pick up the phone and say to them i heard about your complaint is there something i

can do to help we will never get beyond the barrier we can only do that working together through trust and hopefully get more prosecutions and convictions if law enforcement is brought in faster. >> it seems the dialogue has been much more focused on helping the victim cope and deal and that is all incredibly important to deal with the aftermath and go forward i don't hear a lot of dialogue about justice or keeping perpetrators off the street so they don't do it to another girl. the perpetrator that is abused numerous girls and they all sent off to report and that kid is still out there seeking to harm other girls and i'm going to be pretty ticked off that guy is about to keep perpetrating these

crimes. >> one thing to be said about justice people keep saying that this isn't a criminal justice issue and the panel isn't going to send someone to jail that is only partially true. they are admissible in the criminal trial and the prosecutor can independently decide if they want to click print and use everything against the student. the tremendous amendment by the considerations here so it really requires meaningful to process which i'm so glad it's part of the conversation. >> that was one of my other questions. you talked about the due process and that is a fundamental right in the united states for anybody that is accused of crime.

>> it is almost near certainty. the preponderance of the evidence is 50.0% and it's more likely to have happened than not. the difference between the 49.9 is minimal. that's not a problem in civil court where they are all over over the procedural protections that go into play. but they then decide who you agree with more. >> i'm going to have to disagree with that. quite honestly, preponderance is the standard that precludes giving the presumption for either party. it's the most equitable. any other standard has already tipped the scale.

it's not only the most equitable but it's the standard most schools have been using throughout the years so that it's not new or different. the other part of the standard is that it is what is used when we talk about the title vii cases that are dealing with these kind of issues that don't have a civil remedy and maybe also could have criminal implications so the reality is that this is something that schools understand they've been using for a long time and there's plenty of guidance from the department of education how they should be using it. everything is about being equitable and fair and impartial >> the time is expired. you are recognized for five minutes. >> for the leadership in the love the witnesses for your presence today on such an important topic i want to start by questioning with mr. collins is my understanding you call for

weakening the title line process in the context of campus sexual assault is that accurate? >> there are so many things that schools should be doing morally and legally to make sure the campuses are safe places. fact finding just isn't one of the things they are equipped to do well. >> but it provides for campus after dictation but you contain that those attitude occasions are ill-equipped and should be invaded abandoned. >> that would be fair. when amateurs are handling these matters. >> and you have a great degree of confidence in law enforcement and criminal justice to handle these is that true?

>> there is no doubt that it is in perfect but that's a persuasive argument for trying to fix. that's the structure to make sure that everyone's rights are taken into account and that is so important because i want them to get it right and make sure if there is a rapist on campus there is actual consequences that take them off the street and protect people. >> but it is imperfect, correct? >> absolutely. >> and there are examples in the criminal justice system of people that have been sentenced to the death penalty that subsequently have been found is that true? >> there is no system that is perfect for the criminal justice system is dramatically better at doing this than the campuses again cause of the tools they bring to bear. >> the reason the criminal

justice system is imperfect is because of the context of human error and whenever you've got humans involved in the adequate training sensitivity preparation , mistakes will be made. >> absolutely. that's why we have but that's why we have so many procedural tools to try to balance that out so that individuals can't control that process and they have been meaningful appeals in the criminal justice system for the levels that don't exist in campuses where it goes to the same person that decided the case and that provision of the no combing going in the responsibility. >> can you comment on whether you think there are meaningful protections and safeguards in the campus process as it relates to sexual assault outside of the availability of the criminal justice system? >> that is the whole point of the act is to have the colleges and universities examined the

situations when they occur and respond to them and respectfully i would say if you make reporting mandatory you have weekend title ix. you've already said it's not going to be a parallel process oriented geek will process in terms of the emphasis. >> we need as much technical assistance as we can get from the department of education so schools can be the good actors they want to be. the reality is in the system they are supposed to have the prevention training ongoing and do the bystander intervention training. they are supposed to train the folks that will be hearing these kind of issues and they have a choice of what they will use for the student code of conduct. there is flexibility so they can match to the circumstances and the community so they can get a

just result and i do believe that it is. in the context of the campus adjudication process should amend its not ended and address issues of human eric since in all contexts. particularly given as a long history in american jurisprudence of having a parallel process the criminal at adjudication process and opportunity for people to pursue which as all of you pointed out uses a preponderance of the evidence standard the same exact standard used in the campus adjudication process.

>> i will tell you this, growing up if i ever did anything to harm a woman i had to answer to my father and even my little sister she could hit me and i couldn't get her back and that's the way that i was taught. he attended the university and were on the parents council. that is the scariest things i've ever seen in my life and i tell you any freshmen this fall that obviously was prepared to know the consequences at least of

this behavior. when your kids go off to college you pray they will live through the experience they are free to do things that i went to college and did things i shouldn't have done so but me just say this, would it be appropriate, like i said i knew the consequences of my actions. could colleges and universities -- and i know it's difficult to get into lake forest for example you wouldn't be here next semester. it looks like to me this is a

university that should set the pace on this and there are some things we are not going to put up here. i want to go back to the cdc says in multiple methods. we know the parental voices when the students tended to turn out at this time in their lives as they struggle for independence. what we would say and research shows if you approach men and brothers and boyfriends of people who might be a salted, what you get is their empathy and it's a much more powerful motivator than fear of some consequences and you know 18-year-olds. we believe that engaging in the

prevention effort as coaches and peers is more powerful than figure i can them and mobilizing the maturity and their ability to care for their dear friends who've been a salted so treating them as potential allies rather than as potential perpetrators is way more powerful. >> so when my daughters would date a young man i would put the fear of god into them and that was the wrong idea? we were very fortunate, but we have eight grandchildren and three on the way into six of them are little girls and i've got a 14-year-old and of course she's in high school.

they have a value system and then commits a horrible thing it's like what have i done here. don't let your freshman class though they showed us a film in high school and the state patrol did about driving. we didn't have texting back then and the consequences of that, that's stuff that that stuff that does register and at least someone will know i didn't know there was anything wrong with this. these are modern times. but anything else you would like to comment, we've got to stop

it. how do we stop this? >> you hit on a key point getting them involved and the reality is when you are doing this kind of programming, its allies not accusing or pointing fingers. we know this has happened and here's what you can do about it because you may have daughters or friends this could impact that the bystander intervention in particular can be particularly effective with men because they can distract and have another conversation ended up your pressure never underestimate in some respects it is moving against us in terms of the stereotypes and we need to make it work for us. >> i have to ask you to put it in writing. thank you very much.

you are recognized. >> is the problem that you have at the campus is at the standard or is this what you consider to be a flawed implementation of the standards used for both? >> it certainly seems reasonable that a school for its own purposes might want to use a preponderance of evidence standard. we are talking about a private institution and if i was running when i might say if there's a 20 with 30% chance it might have and i wouldn't want to remove this individual. why shouldn't a private institution is a lower standard than a preponderance of evidence that a likelihood standard? senate they operate under different rules because the constitution doesn't necessarily applies to that question has been answered in the public due process that is paramount and requires reasonable determinations that you don't get under the preponderance

prior to the department of education -- >> the lowest standard you can use this preponderance of evidence? >> the lowest standard you can use in the court. >> so if you're saying that it would be a public university can they say we want to use a reasonable likelihood standard for the purpose of expulsion -- spinnaker i don't think that would have any chance of satisfying. the preponderance of evidence can in some circumstances past and fail in others depending with procedural protection it's coupled with. >> it seems like we ought to provide more of a legal framework that provides a likelihood standard or preponderance of evidence standard. if there's ten people that have been accused maybe one or two did it seems better to get rid of all ten people. we are not talking about the life and liberty we are talking

about transfer to another university. >> with the moveon i want to thank you for your willingness to be here today. the polls have shown that 46% in and men are more than ten times more likely to experience a sexual assault and heterosexual men and 25% of transgender have been assaulted after age 13. what does the school say to be a salted response teams and outreach that is done in the culturally competent wave regarding the potential victims of sexual assault including those that are sometimes marginalized and identified as lg bt? >> those statistics are horrible and sexually harassed as well so the whole continuum of violence is something that we know people experience. the great thing about title ix

is that it's gender-neutral so we have a tool we can use for students to file a grievance that they would like and to seek assistance and we talk about having these advisers telling them the rights and helping them understand if they want to file official charges were not in not in all of that needs to be competent and understand the sexual assault is not just a heterosexual phenomenon. >> we talk about engaging the man and i want to talk about male victims as well. what needs to be done with regards to reporting for male victims for whom there can be a whole other set of issues with her is her sexual or homosexual assault or abuse.

>> there is a lot that can happen but in this instance technology is our friend making sure that information that is culturally competent is available to students and is sent out to them regularly on the website in the student code of conduct in the health center in places where the students socializing congregate. >> is it important to show they can involve all as well flex >> absolutely so that has to be a huge element that someone understands and has wonderful guidance from the department of education held the title applies not only on the assault on the harassment based on the gender identity as well. >> you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you madam chair for holding this hearing it for the witnesses for being here as

well. i'm the father of a 12-year-old daughter and 8-year-old son so they are enough to college but it's an issue that means a lot to me and we have been to several different college campuses in my district as well. to reiterate what many of my colleagues have said when parents send their children to college they deserve to know that they will be safe and if even one student doesn't feel that way, that is one too many. i wanted to get give a chance to respond to a comment. giving her testimony what can colleges and universities do to improve the disciplinary process to be more fair? >> if tomorrow the campuses .-full-stop the adjudicating these cases it is important to include meaningful protections like the right to counsel and for both parties by the time the school is trying to exploit

student jobs in the category of trying to sweep it under the rug that they might but they might not make the case particularly well so having someone speak up for the victim is also helpful to them to make sure the questions they want asked get asked that the same person that does investigation as factfinder making sure you have the right to question your accuser because it's important we know the ability to confrontation is what helps us find truth so there are ways we can make it better but i do want to be clear about one more thing we are not just talking about someone expo going to another school that doesn't ring on because when students get expelled its tracks them the remainder of the life. that life. forget about getting a job in security clearance. not many people are lining up to hire people with an assault and

they are against them in a criminal court. having 18-year-olds on the record about felonies that can put them in jail in virginia or missouri for the remainder of their lives. >> reclaiming my time i think we all realize this is a serious crime that needs to be dealt with in a way that practically works so kind of opening up to the broad panel i want to talk just a second to get some counsel as the congress is working through these issues of course we have to work through the intersection between the sort of local law enforcement issues into the campus-based disciplinary process that's in place to deal with the student discipline as well as i think our legislation needs to recognize and accommodate the differences. so could we get some testimony on how to work through that? >> i would be happy to pile on if you will on the issue. the goal and objectives of of our internal discipline process is different than those in the criminal justice system and i think that what has been lost

over the last four and a half years in the efforts of government and other interested parties to make sure that there is accountability for sexual violence on the campuses is the waters are muddied right now about what is the purpose of an on-campus disciplinary proceeding i will not call it a judicial proceeding. we are not going to find someone guilty of a crime. we are going to look at conduct in the framework of the campus community and culture. as congress moves forward we need to tease out and i addressed this in my comment to the subcommittee we need to tease out what is the purpose that you see for an on-campus discipline process? i would ask her to answer quickly on her own behalf but ideally there are different purposes. please keep in mind that not every incident of a violation of sexual misconduct policy is

sexual assault. >> we are trying to determine whether or not we have a safe and if it did educational environment and whether our policies have been violated. we are comfortable with individuals choosing both pathways, choosing a criminal justice pathway and university pathway. we believe the student should be able to decide that. our goal is to make sure we can can read media to our own environment if needed to understand what the risks are and making sure we are lowering barriers to those reporting right now because that is our biggest concern. we know that the incidence established by the polls and studies is nowhere near the number of reports, and we'd like to close that gap and we don't believe that approach would