we give you more money we need you to deal with that. but even to end aligning responsibility to make this right.

it has to be equal priority for all of us. but senator i think your point is very well made. and not sure we would reward our program managers very well.

but that is read as decisions are made. how is it altered of the decisions are directed to that manager? >> i would say is if you have someone the leader needs to be held accountable also.

but the cost sharing has to be considered. when we ask for a six part contract the contractor in order to get the corporate headquarters to agree upon working with that contract they add that risk related to cost. >> i understand that issue but i am talking about production cost. >> i agree in production. >> is that consistent across the board? >> across the services and

yes. >> 1.regarding that historically though the ship at we have been trying to drive down the number of cost of the ships is in our program would have to cross plus in production. >> my time is up but i will submit a question for the record that concerns me highlight to understand what lessons we have learned from this and we don't go down the same road that is very important to the nation. i will submit that for the record. >> can i jump in on the time that you don't have left? >> you are right on

production contracts that they should be fixed price but there is still times that contracts are costs plus and you have to match the risk with the contract a good contract cannot save the good program so i don't fault the contract type the but i raise the question wider rigo into production if we are not done with development yet? >> then we should not invest in the first place with. >> or if it isn't ready to take the next and. then on your first point with program managers people who were held accountable is a philosophical question about accountable for what? what constitutes success? i am a program manager trying to get my program through the next milestone milestone, then there is a

cost increase, what will i be rated on? getting in on the next milestone? if you can support the program, that is what you are mainly accountable. >> it is a problem. >> it could cost you a lot more than you are not meeting your target so people need to be held accountable otherwise this is where we end up. >> i know the department has is reiterated with the headquarters positions well we all want to reduce waste and the efficiency of and urge the department to look at targets on the case mackay's basis to make informed decisions keeping

in mind that they can cost a lot more in the long term than short-term savings. so to rancher but to the tune successful outcomes to carry out the missessful outcomo carry out the missions. but to recruit and obtain a quality work force that they are too inexperienced we cannot expect to have the results of the acquisition is a program. and it contributes to the

problems that dod has had in the major acquisition programs. and i n agree that congress says the important oversight role to play but at the start with that analysis of the team and we could consider the acquisition program so what is your assessment of the health of the work force especially as we deal with these complicated acquisitions? >> the queue is said jay human endeavor but the principle understanding of the underlying problems that we have with acquisition to

insure the work force is appropriately trained and experienced to do these jobs. in 1986 we had 622,000 gore acquisition people but -- with this time frame through 2002 that work force was reduced to less than 300,000 people. this committee in congress has given us the work force development fund allowing us to reeducate between eight and 10,000 people that is a critical improvement to wear we are with the majority of the work force with a workforce that we do have is predominantly younker but in experienced the with these capabilities we are discussing our by those people who don't have that adequate acquisition

experience for what needs to be executed. i would say we are very fragile right now. these people are working very hard and very loyal they don't get well-paid day get a lot of abuse in the press there is an opportunity for what they have done well that has been put together under the principles of the initiative and i commend them for that program and others by having a disciplined approach the only way we will protectorate future is to protect that core capability >>. >> i will add one comment back in may 2014 chairman mccain solicited input

from organizations what do we need to do to improve its acquisition system? i was fortunate after have the opportunity to respond but my concern was programs that succeed because of a highly talented team in place that is able to overcome or work through in and around this system that we have got and master the technical details and oversight to deliver a complex weapons systems they fail quite often because not having those same attributes of the acquisition work force team so we have to have the tools for those professionals to get the job done. >> i emphasize to have the acquisition team to rely

upon because these are complicated systems and it would be very difficult for congress to be the first-line to analyze the efficacy respect the acquisition people to do that therefore thank you very much. >> i a show with chart of $40 billion spent on programs that never became reality that is not and acceptable situation revalue the men and women who work in this business but these problems are of such magnitude we cannot lose sight the system is badly

broken. >> thank you for your leadership on this issue in terms of oversight a critically important function of this committee. but who is responsible? who is irresponsible? who would raise their he had to say it is my responsibility? >> i will tell you that to day i.m. responsible there other gentlemen that our responsible for elements but i assume responsibility for this program and the decisions i have the opportunity to make as we execute. >> nab is responsible. >> i am not talking about the organization and talking

about people or individual. >> i believe we could have done much better to prepare and advocate for the right aspects of this program to be conducted at the beginning through the execution. >> who is responsible in your opinion? >> the department. not a good dancer? >> it is a ridiculous answer. to? who is responsible? parted the issue is the responsibility since to be placed, secretary, i appreciate your statement of front bucket secretary mcfarlane and asking the same question. who is responsible? i am talking about individuals we cannot believe that on the navy. >> i will take responsibility to help the new program along.

>> who is responsible? >> then i would say myself. >> admiral looking at your biography is impressive but when you are assigned to be the program manager in the united states navy when that happens did you celebrate? how ted your job viewed in the navy is that part of the issue? >> to spend my 16th consecutive year in d.c., yes. >> i feel for you. >> is that a career in cancer that is filled with land mines?

to have our most ambitious top-rated officers trying to you get these jobs or do they try to avoid them? >> i believe this is the best job in the navy. most of us will tell you that we want those challenges and we will run shy away from the responsibility for gold smelly i am accountable and i accept that responsibility of want the tough job and i was glad to take it. nobody is happy with the cost overrun. we have done significantly better but to your question to people want these jobs?

>> i know that you see the frustration from the committee that the senator did a good job to articulate talk about a dollar cost overrun so just one of these could find day brigade combat team in the army 10 years. it wants to cut 40,000 troops right al so strategically it doesn't seem to make sense. do you need statutory authority with the responsibilities of cost overrun and not the american taxpayer? can you do that presently? >> we have the authority when we contract with the contractors to hold them accountable.

>> that is from the production standpoint? >> yes, sir,. absolutely. >> first thank you for your interests june this topic is the most important responsibility but in terms of today's discussion there needs to be context. i suspect the first macintosh computer cost $1 million in terms of the work that they went through to develop the computer but then they made them by the thousands or the millions in the price went down $2,000 to one of the problems that you identified this is where we need to focus our attention to deal with new products. you mentioned mature technology and try before you buy.

but we are building a product that has the 50 year life and if we build it with fully mature and fly before you buy technology will be absolutely - - obsolete by the time it hits the water. so essentially we are building prototype you cannot do our prototype with that first macintosh that could sit on the desk you cannot build the prototype of the aircraft carrier. you identified it, how do we deal with that first in class issue? and maybe it is more a realistic estimate in the beginning. may be more realistic estimates of the time but to simply say there is an overrun the senator mccain pointed out, if the

estimates had been more realistic it would be what was estimated. so how low do we deal with this? it is the cost balance and in order to build up highest technology weapons system we have to take risks in terms to be sure that that technology is the most advanced possible. talk about what you identify a properly it isn't the overall procurement problem but the fact it seems to have been in every branch whether the death 35 for other weapons system tanks tanks, how do we deal with the first in class issue? >> we need to take a risk. our position has been let's

take more risk in science and technology and that takes money and we are stingy before we get into a program. >> is it accurate to say some of the systems is r&d? >> yes. we talked earlier with you are going risk and weg to take a risk and we have the off ramp if this doesn't work that we have plan b we tend not to do that we bet this will come out the way we say. if you look at the original plan, these systems would be land-based tested before they got onto the ship but we were too optimistic about that schedule so they put it on to the ship so personally

i am not terribly concerned about the types of problems we're having on those systems but it is when we are discovering them is the problem of. there is a way to make their risk more intelligently but coming back to that acquisition culture to say there is no risk if you say it will foster that then maybe you will be told the knows you cannot put that on the table. some how the culture faster change so we can say it is okay to take their risk and here is how to do it. >> and talking about a class of ships and we are building three of them so you don't have 50 or 60 to spread those costs over. one example is cheaper now in real dollars it had a lot

of problems now it is the mainstay so again this is a very important subject. we need to focus but also understand the context to focus on the real problem that seems to be how do we deal with a quantitative risk? site was then the classified briefing of the new bomber with the same issues how to redo the contracts? who takes the risk? but this is a tough problem when you talk about trying to build the most advanced weapons systems in the world and imagine the chinese are doing pretty well to steal our intellectual property allegedly. [laughter] that is one way to short circuit that but i think it

will be helpful to present to us to present us with thinking of first in class program - - problem. >> it is smaller complex than just first in and class but what technologies you choose to put in their? and they'll push the options into one class but ranking member read talked about the radar project to replace the dual but and radar. that is a non development whole solution we have requirements looking at the industry to reduce the use of technology. the brand new submarine war kraft -- were craft to

reduce the risk of integration by using something that was already proven. several weapons programs were used of back end motor that is very capable so the type of risk that you take on is a key. if you do like the joy revolutionary fighter there is a lot of risk and we realize that now. that was revolutionary. so i would submit his comments are on the mark looking at the risk if you are first in class it is revolutionary nor do those things for technology will have a cost delivery mismatch to deal with later

and we look at the risk. >> if i may add this, because senator brought up the ohio is a spot on a question and wrestle with continuously and ohio is the next big thing coming our way with first-class, a program to provide reliable secure sea bass strategic deterrence through 2080 so how do design those capabilities on the front and and be delivered on scheduled and then throughout its life remain the effective weapon system in 50 years? >> we have been working this. what do we need to do that we don't already do on the ohio?

we have a very effective high performing strategic program and turns of the weapon system is self we will not develop a new system we will fork over in the current state of technology on to the whole. of virginia class's very effective with sensors and communication platforms we will pour over those technologies and the events is that we need to make in terms of stealth answer by fidelity that is where our focus is with development and design and we challenge requirements up front that doesn't just mean what do they need but what is technically feasible what is the risk make sure you have a development program that works the rest would then

have those off rams that we discussed? we have that they doubt it is a vote sitting here today to manage 2021 then assess the risk along the way visibly for congress in department of defense to ensure that each step we are making the right decisions and we don't find ourselves with the delays with the cost overrun. >> when your time is expired reduce the joint strike fighter as a success story you have lost the connection between the military and this committee. the most expensive the longest and largest cost

overrun the first trillion dollar weapon system and you were using that as a success story you're using that as a connection with the members of this committee and those of us who have been involved in this fiasco over as a decade you have to respond to some of this we are now being painted a picture that everything is buying. >> i think this is the of byproduct of the culture and though long timeline so when programs get through their problems they fall back it is a much better than what we have but we forget the cost and opportunity cost of what it took to get their. this system does produce tremendous weapon system but it takes much longer and we give things up along the way but we don't know what those are. that is not a pattern we want to repeat.

we want to get their right the first time. >> for the record i did not mean to use that as a success story but to illustrate innovative technologies is a challenge. >> innovative challenges in silicon valley reduce cost but in the department of defense apparently increased cost. >> i know we have gone over details of those programs will not rehash of is that with the spirit of inquiry in the future i have some simple questions i want to ask. has the navy ever delivered a ship under budget and on time. >> i know of i can answer that for a history but in their recent ones in has not happened but that someone

probably has better data. >> the answer is absolutely consistent a. but you want to get on is the leadership and the answer is yes we have a we are very measured with the risk that we carry into those lead ships and men talk about the reporting technologies and the ships coming our way the first one is the ta0x we will leverage existing technologies and designed to minimize the risk. the next one after that, we have made the decision to make sure we deliver the capability at a cost we can afford and rely upon when it delivers to use the old form of what we understand to

support the initiative and then deal with those changes that our necessary for that platform. >> but those are in the future retrospective what what did the baby delivered under budget? >> the last was the mobile landing platform delivered on schedule and under budget. >> secretary? >> the underlying premise of what we're having as day discussion doesn't go specific to that but the culture of what we discussed earlier. >> to be clear not just the carrier but the major capital investment that the navy and air force have to make. if the air force was in front of me i would ask about the airplane's

parisienne i asked is i want to know if we have done it in the past even if it is rare then what are the features for best practices for those cultural conditions to allow a program to be delivered on time and under budget? >> go like to bring a list of programs that have brought in on schedule and with the culture that was adequately discussed by the chairman ranking member. of things can be done to approve things like bureaucracy and overhead. the other piece that you are getting yet, one of the attributes of the new implementation is to take the lessons that come from the gao and incorporate those into the system to

work to save these improvements in the long term. reseed the performance that we started three years ago a moderate improvement and increase the performance of contracting and we have been trying to do measure what we do with acquisition reform and policy and regulation as we have done for-- upcoming legislation. we need to get to the heart of the matter the points us to what we do to improve. >> one of the classic cases of the success story is the fighter. it is old but the lessons are still applicable as a low-cost alternative so

their requirements were kept a low. five international partners they all have to agree to any changes has the effect to keep their requirements down and the contractor at the time that was in difficult financial straits so they couldn't underbid. so that combination had the effect and i am trying to think of the shadow uap was also quite well and in that case we have data requirements from the army and acquisition drove the program to keep its in check. my experience suggests the success stories are the byproduct of exceptional

circumstances and not normal circumstances. the take away is how to replicate that and to make that'' serve normal. >> you have anything to add? >> i was in a row there program manager in the eyes that i that super hornet was the most successful program in the history of dod. two years later i was wrong with. the growler beat the super hornet and i would argue that is normal acquisition for over there that is an aberration of $47 billion portfolio with those platforms coming it includes next generation jammers a very successful program. but that right there is the

unfolding of one and at night -- agonizing technological discovery after another and at its root is we did not do it adequately. we did a risk reduction and ever before signing the contract we spend $322 million this year act was passed for next generation and jammer before we go to the milestone the department of dispense will spend $622 million for technology development for the next generation so that means a solid technical base line or a cross assessment and i feel pretty confident of the execution of those programs. we spent $29 million and to

discover everything we discover then it could have been sooner. we're at a point wary we beat back an uh discovery in the design changes and now we are into the software. we wish it was like than next generation and she never. and in 2004 by the way normal acquisition we did propose that we propose the of five-year development program it was deemed too costly in and and then replenished technology to a the left and that is the consequences of those

decisions made which is all documented in the acquisition strategy. >> if you could i would follow up to provide examples of where systems have succeeded come in under budget and on time but the headline grabbers like this one like a strike fighter that don't do that but we have a lot of lessons to learn with what will happen in the future for the up platforms that our soldiers need to win the wars of the future. never be very helpful. thank you. >> senator mccain has one question. >> super questions. in this program, i want to

get your opinion. the cost estimates came with a confidence factor of less than 50%. if we are asked to make the decision about a significant acquisition and if the cost is less in the neck has the uncertainty as well. do we say come back at 75 for 60 if there is that much uncertainty? should we push you to do more work before it is

information and and in fact, be a certain years coand in fac, be a certain years come up with the long range of finance but to understand the confidence that we're ready to put a budget down on and cut steel. not just a cost estimate for the to read three layers below that that they are pointing at to identify the risks just like we have been discussing here of the carrier program we need to retire before rigo to contractor before we go to congress to say this is a major program. >> senator mccain, for you, start your were in its

bid to create ted expectation that you want that to come in and i confidence will and the risk identified and few are willing to pay for a the risk reduction like the admiral talked-about or willing to offload their requirements to bring the system down but the work has to start earlier to position it for success. >> thank you very much for your extraordinary and interesting testimony and your service

>> property damage, loss economic opportunity and as congressman tipton mention the long-term impact. how do we get answers and compensation for these very significant issues? there will be a number of proposal before congress and i look forward to working on the with senator bennet, and again i

think it's important the only we can address these issues is with bipartisan support. without i will turn over to senator bennet for your opening statement. >> and the panel, if you like to come take your seat while we are opening statement, that would be great. no, not, three panelists. >> let me say first of all thank you so much for holding the 300 -- holding the hearing. national and deeply interested in getting to the bottom of this as you are, getting answers that we need to thanks for inviting me. it's my pleasure to welcome commissioner blake, ms. gallegos. the blowout at the mine affected communities and businesses as you've heard throughout southwest colorado. there's no denying the epa causes and that's entirely unacceptable. we've held hearings as the chairman said on the epa's action and it's appropriate we

consider the economic aspects of this stupid the animas river is the economic engine of southwest colorado. 's worth of fishing trip for cancer, tourism suffered and farmers couldn't water their crops. damages are still being calculated and we may not know the full extent for years to come big businesses and individuals are starting to file claims to recover their losses, as a chairman gardner said. they deserve to be fully reimbursed. the epa is committed to doing so. the gold king mine spill recovery act i have introduced with senator tom udall will ensure the epa follow through on the promise and will continue to want to work with our colleagues to get the bill right. the bill requires the epa to reimburse businesses, tribes, governments come individuals from property damage, lost revenue and emergency expense. it calls on ebay to construct a permanent water treatment plant north of silverton to

tackle this problem at its source. before mines at the upper animas river basin released more than 300 million gallons of acid mine drainage every year. we need solutions at senator gardner said to address this pollution all across the west. that's what senator gardner and i working on good samaritan legislation to encourage the cleanup of abandoned mines. it is long past time for us to address this issue. i think part of the issue we've had, trying to his people in this plays out to focus on the east coast and the west coast and are nothing attention to the rocky mount and watersheds which by the way if you lived downstream, which almost everybody in the united states does, you need to take an interest in what we're doing there to make sure that we don't have another disaster like this. i also believe that as part of this we should reform the 1872 mining law to make sure that mining companies pay royalties to taxpayers is like everybody

else on our public lands. like many other business owners and elected officials our witnesses today, commissioner blake, ms. gallegos and mr. corra understand for stephanie to address the legacy money so we don't get hit with another blowout. we appreciate meeting with you during our visit together to durango four days after this bill. mr. corra is the co-owner of four corners river sports into reiko, an outdoor retail store, apple school and commercial rafting business. it is open for business today i'll bet, so if anybody is listening to the hearing, please go. mr. corra has built his business and raised his family and southwest colorado like so many other entrepreneurs and as with so many small business owners, he depends on the river for slightly. when the water turn orange in the middle of peak rafting season it is this is hard and

without warning. i look for doing more from all the witnesses this morning. mr. chairman, thank you for inviting me to speak briefly and holding this important hearing. >> thank you, senator bennet. our first witness is the commissioner brad blake from la plata county colorado. he first moved to durango in the 1930s, serving his first term on the county commission board and replaced by them here today. next up is we have the executive director of the silverton area chamber of commerce. and we have mr. andy corra, owner of four corners river sports, locator on the banks of the animas river which is described in adjustment as the lifeblood i believe the heart of durango and has been in business for over 35 years. mr. corra will provide a first inexperience of with his spill has been for the community

throughout the region. thank you to the witnesses were traveling so far to be here today. time away from work, from family. that's appreciated to shed light on questions that need to be addressed. mr. blake, if you would like to begin. >> thank you. i appreciate the opportunity and i would like to thank chairman vitter as well to speak at a small business committee and entrepreneurship considering the impacts of the gold king mine spill. my name is brad blake, a small business owner and a county commission and la plata county colorado. are crushed opportunity to testify about how the incident has affected this is his and southwest colorado. we are very blessed to live in an area of great natural beauty from 14,000-foot peaks to desert valley. the rivers that run through this area are beautiful and clear. the premier is the animas river which starts in the mountains about silverton and close to

colorado and 126 miles through la plata county and the city of durango, the southern indian reservation to the new mexico border and onto utah and lake powell. the mountains above the silverton are rich in minerals and metals. which attracted miners to the area start in 1860s. mining support companies followed along with other businesses to develop as a community flourished. some you would recognize such as the renowned durango silverton narrow gauge railroad. others you may not, but they encompass many different types of enterprises such as tourism related businesses including rafting, bike stores, hiking and outdoor outfitters come hunting and fishing guides, hotels, restaurants and other related support services. la plata county also has considerable agricultural interests including organic, organic farms, ranches rely on the waters to support the

operations. then there are the businesses you'd expect to find in a thriving community including retail and grocery stores, real estate offices, banks, and although the services that support our economy. all of these great businesses employ a few to hundreds of people, and this bill is impacted all of them in some way. use of the gold king mine spread far and wide not only nationally but around the world. the durango area tourism office conducted an analysis for the period of august 5 through august 24 and determined that 19 million impressions were made. impressions like this that i have from the durango herald. this was seen around the world. i have friends of all of the country, ask me about how much all a copy of the durango herald today to look at this.

164 articles about the incident at the valley of more than $3.4 million worth of advertising. the wrong kind of advertising. some is at the height of the tourist season and it was cut short. first by the visual impacts of the gold king and invite lingering questions about the impact of this bill on the river and our community. the businesses most certain impacted with the rafting companies. their season was abruptly interrupted on august 5 and 6th, the date of this bill. there are 10 local rafting companies that employ in excess of 150 people, all of directly impacted. and had to layoff employees during the period of the river closure. one rafting company owner advice me that the estimates of losses to be $100,000. when tourism related businesses are impacted, there is a ripple effect throughout our economy on hotels, restaurants and retail

stores. those in turn impact a collection of local sales tax and launchers tax but tourism businesses were not the only ones impacted your agriculture took it as well. small local farmers had reduce, had reduced crop yields due to the lack of water, the hottest, at the hottest and driest on of the growing season. to choose their provider water to farms were closed for up to 10 days come in some cases leaving farmers high and dry. one rancher reported that he lost half of the second cutting of it, which is $8600 worth of pay. for a small rancher that is a big deal. equally significant is the impact of this bill on the reputation of the organic farms that utilize the river. how can their reputations be restored when doubts about the quality of the water remain? and another example the entire inventory of durango nursery, a

local plant and tree nursery located on the banks of the river, was threatened by the inability to use the river for water and purposes. the owner had to haul water at his own expense until arrangements were made for the water to be delivered until the river could be used again, but even that could help bring customers in. tom estimates he lost $20,000 worth of business due to the decline in customers during the period of the gold king incident. and sales have not recovered. in fact, tom estimates that sales for the year will be down 1.15% from its projections as a result of this spill. as news of the incident spread, calls came into our tender be from around the country asking questions like, are all the fish bedbugs will the fumes are my family if we walk by the river? is the river ever going to recover? it's obvious our community's

image has and repetition as a natural scenic family from the outdoor mecca has been badly damaged as a result of this spill. clearly we do not know yet what the long-term impact of the gold king spill at the publicity generated by it might be. but we anticipate that there could be lingering negative images, public health and safety concerns, and the decline in future visitations all of which will impact small business and la plata county. as a small business owner myself i'm concerned about uncertainty created for a local businesses assaulting from this spill and heightened awareness of acid mine drainage. i ask for you to support, for your support of expeditious reimbursement to businesses and employees impacted by the gold king mines bill. i urge are thoughtful consideration of s. 2063, the gold king spill my recovery act

of 2015. i also advocate for a speedy and collaborative response to this ongoing an age-old problem of metal voting in the upper and mr. i urge congress to move expeditiously but thoughtfully to address the larger problem of acid mine drainage into animas river watershed that impacts not only la plata county but i'll communities along the river. on behalf of the citizens of la plata county, colorado, i thank you for your interest, your time and your consideration. thank you very much. >> thank you, mr. billy. the newspaper or ugly reference to without objection will be entered into the record. ms. gallegos. >> good morning, gentlemen. thank you for the invitation and bringing silverton to the table. my name is ian toledo and i'm the director for the chamber of commerce. my intention from the opening statement is to tell you who we are.

silverton was a raucous, rumbling mining town taken with the pioneer spirit that brought folks out to the west to the discovery of gold, silver and other minerals in the hills and is why we still exist to silverton was incorporated in 1874. from 1881-1882, otto mears build the trained which change the entire area. we still depend on the 100 plus year old train as part of the heart of our summer economy. there are 699 of us. technically 701 because we have babies this summer. 520 of those live in the town of silverton. we get an influx of summer residence and then they go south. then we get an influx of winter residents. so the solid, hard-core number of year-round residents is

around 500. we fluctuate with depending on the season being a tourist town. number one landowner in san juan county is the federal government. 85% of our land is owned by the blm or the forest service. we have 388 square miles in our county. and silverton come is the only municipality left standing. san juan county used to be linked and littered with many mining towns which on a ghost towns, literally ghost towns, buildings you can go in and see the past. but we are the heart of the san juan mountains right off the continental divide. and i'm telling you it takes an extremely hardy soul to live there. i know. being third generation, my

grandfather came after world war ii to be a minor. my father and mother met silverton high school, homecoming king and queen, and i shouldn't say the your because you will pick up on h. but it was in the late '50s. and then my father started a family right away and also winning to mining but moved to the city, which i was born and raised in denver. i would spend all my summers in silverton as a child, so now as an adult living there full-time resident it is like reliving her childhood. silverton as a base camp for us. we lived there so we can live in those mountains. that is something that is intangible unless you experience it, and lets you stood in the bowl of that volcano which created the only levelland which is where my town was built. because of that, 48% of our

economy is dependent on tourism. since the 1990s when the last mine closed we have tried to figure out who are we and where are we going. but we also embrace and celebrate our mining heritage. it is who we are. we offer tourism through ecology, yet our ecology and our economy are extremely fragile just like the tundra that we live below. silverton is just below timberline. that is why folks come to visit us, repeat tourism is critical an actual a very stable part of our economy as well as second homeowners and the influx of seasonal workers that come in and out of our community to help us get to our tourism season. we experience a little over 400 inches of snow in a year.

we've got one wrote in an one road out in the winter and that's highway 550 which is one of the most dangerous highways into united states. along that highway which separates us from services, 50 must either to the south to durango is 150 avalanche paths. mother nature's way of shedding snow but that also means that we are vulnerable to being blocked in, or block out quite frankly. we have the alpine loop. backcountry experience of hiking, camping, and in this backcountry is exactly where the gold king mines are stupid when you go into a backcountry now, you do see the incident firsthand. you do see the blue tarps with the sediment and the activity

that's going on. across the street from our number one employer in the winter, silverton mountain, is this remediation situation and base camp for the epa. we understand and acknowledge and know that we are now in a long-term relationship with the situation, with the epa. we look forward to taking responsibility and being proactive in dealing with being at the top of the watershed and the salt mines. again, -- gold mines. if it were not for these mines, the west may not be what the west is to be. and again we embrace our heritage and our past, and we're proud of that. in this situation has changed that is looked upon.

are talking about employers and employment, and again, we are 48% of our economy is tourism. when you talk about the top employers in san juan county, we have no corporate entity. we don't have a big office building. it is silverton mountain at 40 employees. second largest employer in san juan county is one of our largest restaurants at 20 to employees. we have a 10 month business cycle out of a 12 year calendar year to make it. winter and summer are night and day. a lot of our town closes for the winter. and in the summer when the train comes rolling in, we open of all our doors, clean all of our windows off and we are there to welcome the influx of thousands, hundreds of thousands of

tourists who come to experience as whether it's a day, a week, or four months. and we are dependent on that, thankful for that, and understand that without that we, too, could have the potential of being one more ghost town. i bought my grandmother's home that was moved from a ghost town in eureka in the '40s. my kitchen is slanted and mud walls our little and the doors are tiny, but i love my house. and i love my community. that's why we are all there. that's what i'm here. to speak up for them. before the incident we already were struggling with a housing issue, which is a domino effect of if we can house a seasonal employees, and who is going to

work in the restaurants and shops and hotels? we were already struggling with more jobs than people in town. but we have to also be conscientious of switching of seasons. the folks who live in the summer, the winter people come in and replace them with housing. we don't live in a normal typical day today town. we still have dead fiber in the ground. you are not connected to fiber. so when we sit around and we discuss why this economic development for silverton, and one of the type of individual we can bring into some who can bring their own business, we don't have the infrastructure to support that. so again we go back to tourism. gentlemen, we are counting on you to represent us and to speak up for us. i know you both have been there.

we had a meeting on august 12, senator gardner, that was set up before the epa incident. and i blissfully, naïvely wanted to stick to those issues to discuss the housing and employment pool and our tourism and where do they go from here, not knowing that the train was coming down the tracks and we were tied to it. but what i do know about my community is that we still embrace that pioneer spirit. therefore, we want to create a new relationship with the federal government and the epa, not status quo. we want them and you to be aware of our situation. housing is an issue. to have an influx of federal workers coming in and subcontractors, we cannot allow the housing we already didn't have for the people to be

displaced because of that. because who's going to be there to help these small businesses? i that small businesses tell me they have left over 60 grand on the table this summer alone because of lack of employees. i have a business that it can only open five days a week instead of seven, which no 1.1 business week a month because he literally did not have employees. we've had cancellations. we have that real estate deals fall through. we've had banks pull out our new community construction loans providing loans just because of this talk, because of what's going on. so i ask you to remember us. we are important. just because we are the little guy and there's only 700 others doesn't mean that we don't matter. we are putting trust and faith

in you to do so. thank you. >> thank you, ms. gallego. tell the lisa's congratulations. >> i will. >> mr. corra? >> thank you for having me today. as senator bennet said, my name is andy corra and i own four corners river sports in durango. we've been around for 35 years and we avoid up to 50 people in high season, pretty diverse, we have retail store, a paddle school and went to commercial rafting operation. the date the gold king spill happened, it was a hard day. the river it is in many ways the heart and soul of the community. it runs straight down the center of the valley and the mighty and most runs just adjacent to downtown and it's important people in town. that picture there mr. blake has come those offensive might have found themselves surrounded by the orange sludge.

they were the first ones who told us something's going on with the river. word spread quickly. i went out on until late in the afternoon. this bill was moving towards town and there were literally hundreds of people gathered along the trail just in the section i was in. the whole trail was filling up with people. it was like a funeral that day. people were really upset. it felt really personal. there was a lot of tears shed. it felt like a close family member had been injured or hurt. it really hurt attempted to hurt peoples, you become just more with her people. but it woke us up. it woke us up to this long standing pollution issued that we have and animas. durango in this a lot of money and making it a desirable place to live and investment pays off. we attract a lot of great businesses. we attract a lot of

entrepreneurs, small business owners, creative thinkers, telecommuters. and you can see. our economy is strong in durango. examples of these investments, which is considered a new $3 million whitewater park, a playground. it's wonderful. account has invested $20 million animas river trail. i think one of the better examples is recently there was a half cent sales tax passed into. it. >> specifically for parks and recreation. that passed by 69.5% of the vote. so nearly 70% of the people voted to tax themselves at a high rate i don't think that happens are often. that's a testament to the spirit of our community. 2015 for my business was great. it was the best year that we've had been a long time. we are used to a lot of adversity. we have drought years, we have

down economies that seem to affect the tourism market first we can adjust for those things. this year we were going full speed. sales were great, the raft was filled with tourists and then boom, the river was close. we didn't have any time to plant can any time to adjust. so my rafting company, our sister company lost about $19,000. a paddle school was down about $8200. stand up paddle board down $3800. we went from up 9.8% down 20% at one of the largest outfitters intent of the $100,000 at a loss, that was in the eight days of closure. he was down 50% for the entire month of august. and beyond those laws it's the 150 employees who lost their jobs. those are raft guides, action. photographers, bus drivers, office personnel. they were out of work.

while we had the propaganda business is those individuals that really concern me. i'm confident, competent with senator bennet's bill, the gold king mines the recovery act of 2015, our local communities, our state and the federal government a lot of those people will be made whole. my greater concern is that we address this long-term problem greater from our regions mining legacy. mine pollution isn't new to the animas river. the gold king mine blog was spectacular, no doubt. 3 million gallons of bright orange toxic sludge going into the river in a matter of hours. i think it's important to note that same mine was leaking to do 500 gallons of the same water every minute prior to that. that there are other contributing mines that add up to 6 million gallons a week.

that's 330 million gallons of toxic water going into our watershed every year. the gold king represents, what, one weeks worth of the natural drainage. so that's what the outrage should be. that's where energy should be directed. this is the ticking timebomb that hangs over our head. as a business owner it makes me reluctant to invest in the future if this is going to happen again. the impacts likely succumb to go well beyond the durango. from silverton, colorado to grand canyon arizona people depend on this river. it's the lifeblood and they are headwaters of its lifeblood deserve to be cleaned up once and for all. look, i think everybody agrees that the epa messed this one up, right? we waste a lot of our energy and anger going after these epa firefighters who are tasked with impossible job of putting out his out of control fire with a garden hose. this bill makes clear that the

piecemeal approach isn't working. it's a complex problem. there's tons of mine portals, both kids that need to be put in water than needs be redirected, needs to be treated. it's an ongoing problem. we need a comprehensive approach to clean this up. so yes, good samaritan legislation is proposed by the last congress makes good sense. yes, it's 143 year-old 1872 mining law needs to be reformed and brought in by with of extraction industries. the epa needs to partner with the stakeholders in silverton. have a lot of knowledge. they need to consult with those folks. and yes, we need a watertight the plant in cement creek today and it needs to be fully funded. i want to thank you senators for proposing that. it's a really important first step. but understand that it's only a

first step. all of the above list, it does nothing to give us money today. it does nothing to plant a long-term fix for this problem. look, it's a complicated problem. there's really only one entity. if we can reinvent the wheel and get money elsewhere, great, let's do it but right after they there's one entity who can handle this. is on one entity that has the experience, that has the technical expertise and has the potential funding sources and that's the epa. i understand that it makes a lot of people nervous to invite in the epa on a big basis. i did a lot of the senators may not want that type of fixed. but right now adding it to the superfund national territory's list is the only clue path forward. i know there's a lot of fear around that but i couldn't utah, superfund site.

it is booming. are thousand and those a tourist. aspen, colorado, i don't think they are hurting from this. they are a superfund site. i think it can be done in a sensitive manner and a directed manner just at those mines to it is another funding source i can happen, great, if i were the federal government and 17 to me with this laundry list i would say that looks great, we have an excellent program, it's called epa superfund. so in conclusion a durango and surrounding communities depend on the animas river. the ongoing pollution and the likely periodic major releases threatens our communities health and livelihoods. while supporting all of the above solutions, only the full effort and comprehensive approach of the epa can address these problems permanently. i appreciate your consideration to my comments and i welcome any questions. >> thank you. we will jump right into

questions. i think we'll go back and forth in questions. i wanted to start, mr. blake, and feel free, ms. gallego or mr. corra to jump in as well. can you talk about some of the experiences you have heard from businesses into two countries about how they're going to handle this problem for lost revenue come how they're moving forward with perhaps talk about lost revenue to the county if you've been able to make that calculation yet spent start off with lost revenue to the county. we have a lot of time just with county employees in working with the epa. i will add our staff, our county manager and county attorney at all the support staff just did an excellent job of really leaving the effort and according with the epa. they've done an excellent job. so there's costs there. if you want to look at taxes, larger taxes directly were affected. were not sure quite yet, not

sure yet how much they were unaffected but those are taxes that would take a hit. -- lodger taxes. some people would say the epa filled up all the rooms that were not taken, but i remind you that they don't pay lodgers tax. and lodgers tax does get a negative images that might have occurred. the durango area tourism office as a great job of putting information out about the whole four corners area and drawing people in. as far as businesses i talked a lot of business people from the farmers that i mentioned to the real estate offices. i talked to one count i could somebody just walk away from a real estate deal as was mentioned by ms. gallego.

people are nervous about this. it really worries them your i personally had calls from friends and family about the country that sent hey, what's going on for one of my cousins was actually upset because he remembers the days when we are kids fishing in the river he said i remember those days fishing in the river and how fun they were, how beautiful the river was. he was very upset about it. and so those images, those concerns. congressman tipton mentioned perception that google is a lot about perception. the river may have returned back to its normal or as close to them as you can get but it's back to where it was. people don't necessarily get that information. they are still seeing the images like a mentioned earlier comment that i think is what we are looking to. next you'll be the outcome of this and maybe even the

following do. spent mr. blake, follow-up on the. as the epa indicated he will reimburse the county for the time, employee time you've had and equipment time you have had? >> they have. >> full cost reimbursement? >> we're working with them on reimbursement and so far i think it's going along as could be expected. as far as i know we have not received any funds yet. we've spent in excess of $200,000. >> county budget? >> county, that's just the county. the are a lot of businesses that were impacted from small amount to a larger amount. some of the businesses that were mentioned, if they have been taken hit of $1000 or more, that's a problem because 4905 the epa provides doesn't allow for recovering which have lost. it has a limit on what you can actually recover. >> if i can get that in entered

into the record i think i will. we will put that in the record as well. do we know whether the real estate deal that you talk about walking away, that's a lost opportunity, will that be something you can submit on a claim of how do you prove that? that's a loss that will be -- >> that would be really hard to prove that they didn't -- real estate deals fall apart all the time, but, and there was more than just one. i had a personal friend who said her client walked away from the deal specifically because of that. i heard some other people mention similar stories but hers they specifically said hey, that's it for us. >> mr. corra, i'm running out of time but feel free if you want to add to that as well. >> well, you know, we know what other direct costs were.

it's pretty easy for our -- >> around 30,000? >> that's right. my concern really is the long-term impact. the media images were everywhere. we couldn't have asked for the kind of coverage that we didn't have that kind of coverage. my concern is people on the nature -- >> so what do we do about that? i think showing a concerted effort, letting people are river is cleaned up i was in the river the day before close and i was in the river the day it opened. it was looking a little messy the first few days. i can to -- >> pretty jealous. >> but is looking better. because. silverton is the same way. people are used to the old stains on the edge. that's been going on for 100 years. is things like when i first moved to the rank of 35 years ago the river was pretty dead about 10 to do what many fish in

the northern part, the north valley above durango. they were so not many. and develop a treatment plant on cement creek. it was in the mid '90s. the river really cleaned up anti-difranco section became a gold medal fishing. our steps has since come down, so that operation shut down. that was run by a mining company. that shut down. the dead water is moving downstream again and drag it down a notch. we are not a gold medal fishery anymore. it's those kind of optics and it's that message we need to get a. with a treatment plant and cement creek i'm confident we'll see the cleanup again. when that's a gold medal fishery can five or 10 years in a people will forget about this. they will remember durango, the animas river, from silverton that clean river. >> senator bennet? >> thank you. since there are no other senators here today, i would say without contradiction it is an

enormous privilege to represent the most beautiful state in the country, colorado. and you do, i know senator gardner feels the same way, a testament reminds me how much inspiration we draw from the people we represent. you cannot come to the north or south to silverton and not think about the character of the people that build that community, ms. gallegos, as you talked about, or take alpine loop trail and see railroads built at 14, almost 14,000 feet by people come and i was think when i'm there, first of all, what character must been like, a collaboration must have been like an empty a political conversation he would sound to the people that built the silverton. the other thing you do when you're traveling in colorado you never stop when you're in one of these jobs and to pick a favorite place.

the favorite place from is the hotel that's what on the banks of the animas river, the doubletree in durango. you get a room on the back, you open up those doors and you can hear the river going by and there's nothing quite like it. let me first say that, as mr. corra was say, this community is open for business. there's lots to do there through the winter and in the summer months, and people shouldn't take the wrong lesson from what we're trying to do here because it's safe what we want to make it safer. that's why we're all here today. let me start with mr. corra first documented this woke us up. that's what you said in your testimony. i think you talked about the long tradition of legacy mine pollution in south was cholera which as far as i'm concerned that's the heart of the issue going forward. we need to clean up the water coming out of these funds to prevent future blowups and address the ongoing pollution in the river.

i wonder if you could use the opportunity to tell us how that is immunity in durango is thinking differently about this? what did you wake up to and what can congress help? do to help tackle this problem? >> thank you for. what we woke up to, woke up to come on income on a personal level we woke u up to make river was in as pristine as we always had assumed. we woke up to the fact that you, my kids splashing around in the water as a toddler, my super comfortable with that? i think the reality is that water is safe. i trust the numbers that accompany epa and did been confirmed by local entities and the water is safe. but it doesn't mean the water is pure. it doesn't it's as good as it should be. below the town of silverton, fellow cement creek the river is essentially dead. that are not fish and are not bugs in a section of river.

mother nature between durango -- is 50 miles of wild water. we will take you on a stretch some day. it's great. the metals dropped off at that point. we do have a pretty clean river in town but a lot of business owners that i speak with are concerned about the optics. they're concerned that we've got this tainted impression across the country. i got the same phone calls and brad got. so what i think that you can do is we can find some real clean up after. nhb dent in a nhb dent in the sensitive man up in its defense what doesn't in fact silverton. and i think it can be. the mind in cement creek are not directly intemperate i think if it's done properly, like utah and other places, that the town will benefit. if the optic is hey, we are

taking proactive action to clean this up i think that goes along way for the business of silverton and certainly in durango. >> so ms. gallegos let me jump to you, same point. you said in your testimony that silverton was ready for new relationship with the epa, different relationship to the epa is committed to constructing a temperate treatment plant as you know but hasn't yet committed to finding a way to construct a permanent facility which i think both of us would like to see. tell us more about the way you would like it to go forward as we try to seek a solution to this. mr. corra's point is a very important one too, that people need to understand this, water being treated may not be right in silverton, north of the town. >> we are the top of the watershed and we understand that, and yes, this has been a long problem. but i don't believe that we have

to go status quo. i want to make a point. i'm not a politician. i have not been to every meeting with the epa, but as a general citizen of also being part of the incident crisis team, my personal concern has been lack of transparency, listening and analyzing all of these hearings that have been going on. again, my personal opinion is that testimony stands for itself. that's very concerning when you're inviting that into your backyard. i look at lead bill. he says moab, i save lead bill. there's a very well written book about lead bill and impact on the community at lead bill. to just as many positive stories out there that are also in order

stores. i personally see it as a wait list. that's my concern. i agree with mr. corra that something needs to happen now, today. i trave traveled up to the actue on a regular basis and they see the blue tarps and i see the remediation and i see the holes and i see the that. again, personal experience, the fact that gina mccarthy has never stepped foot in my town, the fact that we had to fight to get the epa to come to a community meeting. the fact that not all situations work out blissfully our concerning to me as a citizen, a land owner and a third generation silver tommy and. i guess i ask is it immediate money when we ask about, and epa

came to town, that was a lot of we will get back to you. i would love to trust, i would love to know from my community that it would be instant, that it would come right away. but i don't. and giving the real estate agency say just the talk of the stigma, dealer getting canceled, loans are not being offered for construction loans within our new community that we are desperately wanting to build are alarming to me. do i believe that the intention is there? yes. but i'm also a realist and i know what i've experienced thatd also know what i've seen and what i've heard in our relationship with the epa. i also would like to acknowledge

that we understand, this may be weird to say, we are in an arranged marriage with the epa. we have been working with the epa for over 25 years. they argue. they have been here. it is this accident that they cause that brought this to the fore place that has made us the poster child, superfund or not. where we are concerned as they cannot because of that in our neighbors, definition of neighbors has changed. it's durango to farmington to every county and town and state that touches that water. we acknowledge that, we respect that and we appreciate being brought to the table today. but my personal experience has been is the soviet a lot of times hasn't been invited to the table. there's been a lot of finger pointing. i have received hate e-mails in

my gym and box. we have received a strange phone calls. we've gotten cancellations, we've had tourists turned down water. there's an impression and the stigma, and again we agree that that is our concern for long-term. to say your cash register didn't change today does not mean it will not change to more on next year or four years or five years. i'm thinking long-term. for us to figure out and check of what's happening today is going to be time in the future for windows tax numbers coming. and when the stories continue to roll. this is limitless and a couple of months but it feels like 10 years but it's only been less than a couple of months. but what i ask again and that pioneer spirit, and this is again personal have is that we think outside of the box. is it the magic bullet? i don't know that. i can't say that. what does it actually mean to be

on a priorities list, weightless, immediate remediation. we as well want to see immediate we mediation him to see that the work is happening up there is wonderful but let's keep going. let's go for the let's make it permanent. we also want a water treatment plant. but doesn't have to be like it's been done since the '80s? i don't know that. antiquing we're turning over our trust to you. >> thank you. to follow up on some the comments that were made about the funding and some of the claims themselves. to your knowledge has anybody been reimbursed for a claim that has been filed speak was no. >> not yet. >> at i think you just said it. there's a timeline for when they would be filed, any timeframe?

>> no. >> to the best of anybody's knowledge? >> la plata county actually set up with the epa meeting place where people could come with the form to get help filling it up it is not a real busy for offer in the form to fill out. but la plata county actually was proactive in helping folks held out. and i believe they can still get help if they need to. i think the incident command center has come is the stood down at this point but i think there's still some hope out there. spirit senator bennet? any follow-up questions speak with i will ask a question to the commission, one question, which is there more that senator gardner and i could do to be helpful to you as you try to interact with these federal agencies, think about what legislation we may want to pass?

>> well, the epa is a pretty big mission. we found out when they came to town in force. they were up about silverton doing some work on a small-scale, turned into a big scale. when they all came in, it was, it was a pretty, pretty big group of folks that showed up. but i think, i think that that could be something that works against them almost. so many people that came, and a lot of different folks would show up every week. we would ask for certain things. the next group would come in and about what kind of get dropped. i think that size might actually be a detriment. i would agree that a collaboration with the good, if possible, because there a lot of experts that are from the mining industry data done a lot of good work in the mineral creek drainage. they done a lot of clean up on

their own, a lot of piecemeal. they do one here comes one. no, and i think that's a great opportunity to see the best things happen. because you get experts better than doing it. they put both kids in those mice producing a lot of cleanup. not that ebay does not experts but our people that have been there a long time. i would agree that it think collaboration is really the best way to go. spent i appreciate and i just want as chairman gardner said at the outset, thank hud for taking time to come here today. it's a long trip i know, and you get other things, you've got jobs you need with other we are grateful for this test would it's been helpful, and our offices will continue to work with you to make sure that we put this right. thank you, senator gardner, the holding this hearing. >> thank you, senator bennet for

your participation or 52 the witness. thank you for time a testament. that's a lot of work a lot of work we need to do following a. getting reimbursement, ideas, we've got to get with the timeframe is going to be. we have to take out what kind of claims are going to be sad, lost opportunity, form 95 can be found for two years. does that mean somebody next summer after they realized they'd seen an impact from this, can they file? doesn't have to be during the timeframe? so can we look at those questions, answers from the epa for those questions. but you've got a commitment from senator bennet and i to continue to work on these issues, whether it's conversations on the 1872 law, the good samaritans law. these are things, we can't wait. you are here today as part of the solution and we truly to appreciate that. i think if we can't attest when today. thank you to chairman vitter for life is commission to be held

and wish you safe travels back home. this committee hearing is adjourned. >> thank you [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> the supreme court is scheduled to begin its new term on monday. earlier this year a poll on the of its supreme court and impact of its decision. you can see from the pull some of the decisions are more for me miliar than others to americans. role the way at the top.

46% of americans me with the board of education and goes on from there. here to talk more about the supreme court decisions and see this upcoming series landmark cases, executive producer markau farcus.amiliar. palace more of a the sector why is c-span doing at? >> all of our history series need to find currency to our current programming and when you take a look at the roles of the court has been playing not just in the last 10 years but really since it began, i think this poll really shows that the supreme court is relevant. it's encouraging for us, this is where the landmark cases takes a look at 12 decisions over time they will have printed today. eight of those decisions are a listed in that poll. i think it shows one that the court does put a really important role in society. and the genesis of this was ruth

bader ginsburg was talking to the national constitution centen data, the constitution center our partners in this, and she was talking to them about the case of loving v. virginia which is not on our list but the point was she said there are two people involved in this case. so really what the court ought to be taking a look at and what americans would take a look at is not only the decisions bys. we people involved in all these cases. we wanted to take wa look at i don't historic supreme court don't historic supreme court decisions are really the peoplee involved, the personal stories,o the people that cared enough toa take the case all the way to the supreme court. >> when will the series air? more background about how these cases were chosen? >> this series is a 12 part.gina -- series which begins octobe october 5. each monday night from nine to 10:30 p.m. we will do 90 minute

program statistics with all cases.2 >> that background on how these cases were chosen? how did you go about makingere o those decisions? there's a lot more that will be shown during this series. >> it was an interesting exercise. the supreme court has been meeting since 1790. we are trying to figure out just how many cases they decided. is probably over 20,000 we had to narrow it down to 12. you can do a parlor game over i because we came up with 12, with our along with our partners at thee. constitution center. we talk to constitutionaltituti scholars, legal scholars on both the left and right to come up with this list. it was tough because there are a lot of great decisions that are not on this list but this is a good mix of different amendments to the consttituitution, personl stories.. sometimes these cases are cases where the court got it right and

set a precedent. some of these cases, dred scott, the chatham -- korematsu case is where the court got it wrong spent as you said, the supreme icurt kicks off its new term on monday. tell us which case you'l l bee featuring monday night when the series begins and wide. >> mine tonight we featurerk: o marbury v. madison which isrsuse really the foundation that chief justice roberts and justice ginsburg and a lot of the justices quote today and the sight of one most often cited case in history of the court. what marbury v. madison does is it establishes the court as a the ultimate arbiter of thete constitution. judicial review. which is still being debated today by the court is stepping into much more debate going on in i think that shows there's relevance on whether the court should be deciding issues like gay marriage, other issues like that. marbury v. madison eli