people after thanksgiving, the sunday after thanksgiving, where they talked about an auto bailout czar and having a czar to handle that, and they -- josh bolton said they would be willing to appoint a person that the obama people wanted, and at that time, which was -- obviously before the inauguration. and the obama people decided -- >> host: they pulled back a little bit. >> guest: yes to take advantage of that. >> host: so, we heard the expression, only one president at a time, but this kind of changed that a little bit. >> guest: it does. it means that here the president -- the president-elect all of a sudden has to make a very swift change from campaigning to governing, have to figure out, is he going to

take that offer of the bailout, and he took the same route that president roosevelt had when herbert hoover tried to have him involved in decision -- >> host: recounting of history. >> guest: in a why what happens is you buy into somebody else's problem. he wanted to start fresh. >> host: so to close that critical chapter in terms of national security and financial challenges, your conclusion was that during the transition, because of this level of trust and cooperation and familiarity, your conclusion is that the transition helped move through that period in a much more positive way than otherwise might have been the case? >> guest: absolutely. >> host: i concur. >> guest: that's true in so many ways, whether it's in the appointments process -- >> host: we'll get to that.

>> guest: -- the general procedures of a transition, yes. >> host: let's move to president bush. i think if i would kind of capsulize your themes, it's to start early and stay open with the sitting president. >> guest: right. >> host: tell us holiday and why president bush really focused so much on this transition as early as december 2007. >> guest: in one way, it was something that was comfortable for him because when he became president, he had clay johnson, who was working at his chief of staff -- >> host: in austin. >> guest: in austin in june of '99. he had him thinking separately about transition, and he told him he wanted him to go out and talk to the jim bakers bakers ad

george schultzs and get some understanding about how transitions work, and then also think about the recruitment process for personnel. so, planning ahead was something that was natural to him. i think -- >> host: important. >> guest: -- in the transition but he was very affected by the wars, and the need to not just for president obama but for the presidency itself, the institution of the presidency, which you have in your hand. you want to make sure that institution remains strong, and so i think that's one of the reasons that he started early, and then he told his chief of staff, josh bolton, that he wanted him to handle it, and whenever he needed to, he could come to him and get his approval or his thinking on something.

and so bolton did that. but he also was involved in the financial crisis. so he was juggling all of those things. so, his deputy, blake, did a lot of the work. say on a daily basis, blake dealt with the executive director for the obama transition. christopher liu, who was the -- had been the legislative affairs assistant for senator obama, and they had been in law school together, and he had -- >> host: had a relationship. >> guest: right. had the full confidence of obama. so, he and blake dealt -- if there were any issues on daily basis, say, after the election, about people going into the departments and gathering information. if there were any issues, they came up. the two of them were able to dispose of them within a day and

there were very few of them. >> host: of course i recall a meeting that the chief of staff, josh bolton, and i know well and favorably -- a breakfast meeting he assembled a number of former chiefs of staff, and the meeting was organized, the breakfast was organized in the honor of and really to give counsel to rahm emanuel, the incoming chief of staff, and even before that i had had the opportunity and privilege to sit in on a couple of session that chief bolton organized with andy card and me and a couple offense the bush white house, reflecting exactly what you're saying. and we'll get to john podesta and his role in the obama administration, but i recall that breakfast vividly, and of course that was where vice president cheney, who was chief of staff to president ford, made the great statement, one of the counsel is keep an eye on your vice president. it was very generous offer on the part of josh bolton. >> guest: i thought on that remark of vice president cheney

that he was referring more -- not just to himself. he was referring to his experience in the ford -- >> host: you make a very good point. >> guest: with vice president rockefeller. >> host: you make a very good point. i don't think that was taken but i think your interpretation is likely the right one. i it got got a good hearty laugh and then he went ton give some serious advise, as we all tried. to now, it's interesting that when president bush began this process, early in 2007, he did not know who the next president of the united states was going to be. so he really started with chief of staff bolton, with clay johnson, his long-team confidante and friend, who i have great respect for. now, the reaction was perhaps a bit different than some might have thought between the obama campaign and his advisers, and the mccain campaign and senator mccain's key people.

tell us about that. >> guest: well, it would be a different transition. >> host: they do reflect personalities. >> guest: but also with obama it's going to be a change of party transition. >> host: good point. >> guest: a change of party transition you want to change personnel quickly, you want to have your executive orders lined up, your memoranda that are going to change perhaps ethics guidelines. >> host: hit the ground running. >> guest: yes. so there's a lot you want to do right at the beginning to demonstrate there's a new sheriff in town and we're doing business differently. with mccain, it was the same party transition, so you're not going to be as anxious about changing personnel quickly, and the same, too, for legislative initiatives. you would give that some time. and i think one of the things,

too, in their mind, is certainly in putting in names, which he did not for security clearances, is he had people -- >> host: mccain did not. >> guest: yes. the obama people put in 150 to 200 names. >> host: pretty -- >> guest: a lot of difference. but mccain had people on his armed services committee in the senate that were appointees of his, who had security clearances. so i think -- >> host: they already had some idea. >> guest: he felt that he had the bones of a staff to come in. and a -- the same party transition has a helpfulness and friendliness to it. most often that is going to make it a lot easier for a president.

so, for example, when vice president bush followed ronald reagan, when there were vacancies coming up at the end of the administration, because a lot of cabinet people leave -- and two important positions were treasury and attorney general, and then also the education secretary. the three of them left, and so you had vacancies there, and so reagan appointed nicholas brady for treasury, a very good friend of george h.w. bush, and richard thorneberg for attorney general, and then laura for education, and he kept all of them and two of them went for the whole hoff the administration. >> host: now, you write that a positive transition, a seamless transition, benefits a sitting pratt as well as the incoming president, and i think you

make -- i think it's fair to say you make the point, burnishes his reputation you. talked to a lot of people within the white house. so, was that part of president bush's motivation and thinking? >> guest: you know what, it certainly could have been. it's hard to get to motivation of people. i think republicans tend to focus on management, and bush in particular had focused on management when -- and managing a transition early when he came in, and i think it was natural for him to do it going out. particularly with the war, but also in the last part of your administration, you don't have a lot of persuasion -- able to persuade congress to do something that you might want them to do.

so you're not spending a lot of time there. then you spent a lot of time on the road, traveling, and i think it's natural to be thinking about a wrapup on your administration, and i think it's very useful to establish a narrative of what your administration accomplished, how it all fit together, particularly with the president's vision, and -- because sometimes people will look at a presidency in part, and individual actions -- >> host: as posed to he whole. >> guest: right. this gives you an opportunity to pull it together. that was something that reagan did, that i think worked to his benefit, and eisenhower did it. i study white house communications, and that -- >> host: going to ask you about that later if we have time here good ahead.

>> guest: i've gone through all the files of james haggerty, the press secretary for eisenhower, and he -- his office performed the jobs of about 60 people today. but anyway, one of the memos in that, that he wrote to him, to deal with the last year, is he said that he should travel. he should have his team of man of peace -- a theme of a man of peace and travel around the world, and i think that was -- got interrupted by the u-2. >> host: the gary powers to -- >> guest: right, and the troubled with the soviet union but it was -- have a theme for your presidency, and for eisenhower, it also meant having a theme for your whole life because as he had been the man

of war, and then now the presidency, become this man of peace, and so i think it's useful for everybody, including the president and for his legacy, to have a wrap-up. i think the kind of memos that steve hadley did were important, too, for all of this goes into a presidential library. >> host: right. >> guest: it gives people a sense of what you were thinking, and so i think it's a positive way to end your presidency because you can get around, again to the notion of the presidency as an institution, and how did you handle it? >> host: well, you make some very different points in terms of the transition after 9/11, that changed the perspective, and the fact that president bush was somewhat in a unique position, attorney president north running for re-election,

knew there was a transition and his volunteer was not seeking the office. those are very different dynamics of you also in seeking -- let's take a step back a bit in history. you mentioned president eisenhower, and president truman was kind of somewhat the father of this transition help focused on the need for a good transition, but in terms of one of the fundamental tenets you make about the bush and obama teams of trust, i think relations might have been agent less trust organize maybe frosty between president truman and incoming president dwight d. eisenhower. >> guest: indeed they were in truman's case, i think one of the things that happens is presidents are affected by things that happened to them before. >> host: human beings. >> guest: yes. and so they then wanted to deal with that situation, and truman's case he came in as vice

president, january 20th, and roosevelt died on april 12th. and during that time period, he did not learn about a lot that was going on in government, in particular -- it was wartime. in particular the development of the atomic bomb. and he felt very scared buy that and didn't want that to help. >> host: to his successor. >> guest: to his successor. so when he made his decision and announced that at the jefferson-jackson day dinner in '52 he was not going to run again -- he could have run but he decided not to run, and he talked to roger jones, who was the head of the bureau of the budget, and he talked to him about his -- about preparing for a transition. and how he wanted him pulling together budget information; and program information. ...

bring the candidates in and, so you had both candidates and right eyes now, for the republicans, nominated by the time the letter eisenhower sent

on august-- august 13 to make you mean that truman that. >> that truman sent. truman said in his letter i will have general smith and the central intelligence agency give you a complete briefing on the foreign situation and then after that they were going to have some more things that he also said he would indicated to eisenhower that the cia would provide him with briefings on the world situation on a week basis, which eisenhower never did take him up on end then he said in his letter he would have lunch with the next and after that, if you like, i will have my entire staff report to you on the situation in the white house and the net weight-- on what takes place, yes. so, eisenhower wrote him back, turning him down and he said in my current position as with

republican party and if other americans want to bring about a change in the national government-- >> host: in case you missed my point's p2 it is my duty to remain free to analyze the policy policies whenever it appears to be proper and in the country's interests. i believe eric mitigation should be only those which are known to all the american people. consequently, i think it would be unwise and result in confusion of the public's mind if i were to attend the meeting in the white house in which you have invited me. well, truman was not very happy and sometimes what he did was he handwrote letters and what he could do with that with a handwritten letter, he would put it in the mailbox when he was doing his walk. >> host: different than communication today.

>> guest: it's not going through the chief of staff. >> host: i'm picking up on your point for sure. >> guest: so, he said i'm extremely sorry you hope a lot of much of screwballs to come between us. you have made a bad mistake and i'm hoping it won't injured this great republic. so,-- >> host: harry truman response, you should have listened and move forward here, but eisenhower-- this is a fundamental point, eisenhower was skeptical reluctant to engage with a democratic presidents even in a transition of the presidency other than the cia work and what is one of the hallmarks here that you discuss about this being a model in your view that you had a sitting two-term republican presidents transitioning with a democratic

presidents who have been critical of the bush administration and yet still if you have a little of trust established between the presidents and equally important their staffs. >> guest: one of joel kaplan-- was the deputy and he talked about how he thought it really was an excellent statement about the transition that they were able and they got beat up for a couple of years by the democrats and by obama, but at the same time they were able to-- >> host: i think this is so striking and i think what's so important and many of the virtues and value in the timing of the book as we have such a partisan atmosphere in washington and so the hope here really was not-- it's that you can transcend that when you really look at the good of the

country and what is essential for the protection of the presidency. as part of year, i think, theme and major message. a couple of other points here and want to be sure we get to, john podesta zero who assumed leadership of the transition campaign or group for president elect obama. i know john well and he worked forming a white house and was later chief of staff, but the-- he had seen those inner workings, understood it. you characterize, i think, john's stylus corporate and also you emphasize having a separate track of the transition fee to his operation was different from earlier operations. what he needed to do as setting things up was make sure they were going to have people that could go into the department and agencies to review programs,

budgets, personnel. >> host: relatively detail, then. >> guest: you have to be able to pick people who have been there before, so they know what to look for, but he set things up in a way using a template bats all of the review team were to use. they had usually large review teams because people may want to get their own information and they-- so, he was able to have a disciplined operation. i think it was because he did work from template. he saw through very carefully at the beginning what kind of information they wanted and i asked him about that process and

how he maintained the discipline and then he went back to being staff secretary. he was staff secretary under you when you were chief of staff and he said he learned there the importance of detail and so he was able when you put together the agency review team, the policy teams and also the leadership part, there were 679 people-- >> host: that they large group. >> guest: and you really didn't hear any problems arising from it. >> host: john, i think it's fair to say and i think most people would agree regardless of their political persuasion, experience , disciplined political operative and leader. we saw that in this instance and now, we see it as campaign manager for secretary clinton. usually handled with the dispatch.

>> guest: very well. >> host: and he is a professional and eye can see where the two of them would actually link together easily and develop mutual respect. you also talk about unsung heroes i think this is important. people in the government that are so essential. tell us about that, martha. >> guest: there is a lot that had to be done within the government itself way before the transition began. so, for example, the general services administration is important in identifying the office space that will be used if you read the office space has already been identified for the coming transition and then they have to talk with representatives of a both sides about how they are going to put their office together, how do

they wanted to put it together and then they have to talk to them about computers, the security and how they are planning on doing that and then you have the office of government ethics that deals with the financial disclosure requirements that actually, came from your-- no, it was earlier. >> host: we built on it, but you are correct. >> guest: i natural disclosure, they need to talk to the candidates representatives about what kind of disclosure it is because there are a lot of people they know they have to reveal all of their stocks and get rid of so many of them that they are not going to wind up in a position of government, so they need to know beforehand and

then you have the people, the career staff who are trying to repair for a change. so, they are following what is going on in a campaign. sometimes, one of the things that happens is that they might follow the campaign pronouncements of the candidates and what programs he wants-- or she wants and then figure out how much that will cost so they can have that information ready for them and that is something that various operations and i think roger did that, roger jones for the 52 election. then you have people like clay johnson. clay johnson was a close friend of president bush and had a sense of management. he and bush have gone to high

school together. they had met in high school and then they went-- they both went to jail and then both took business. >> and chief of staff to governor bush. >> guest: he was not a political person. he was devoted to making sure the management aspect worked for bush. >> host: but, one person has the authority and responsibility and i think that was one of the key points. >> guest: so, in going out josh dealt with all of the white house operations, but for departments and agencies for some that work that clay johnson worked on through the president's management council as he was-- as deputy of the office of management budget, but which was he was at the end of the ministration. he chaired that committee, which is made up of all of the

departments and most important agencies and so he had them come together in the spring and talk about the transition. what information did they think a new administration would need and so they worked through that and then in the summer, i think it was july 18, he sent out a memorandum to the departments and agencies directing exactly what they were to gather, the information they were to gather and they chose the importance of involving all parts of governments and of starting early. >> host: execution, really execution and as you say a broad participation. >> guest: so they could develop a consensus on what was needed, like for departments what kinds of conferences with the secretary be involved in.

what sort of travel has been set up, what legislation is there that affects the departments and obviously budgets. >> host: those are just-- i'm just so-- i commend you for really highlighting and really presenting that information in a clear manner because it's a little-known fact. it's easy to feel some of that confidence is not there and yet it does reside in the career people, but it has to be marshaled and directed and led. >> guest: it does, but there is a willingness. i think people during the campaign assumed since it's a change of a party that the government will be their enemy. it is anything but the case and i think once they get in, then they find how important these people are and then they find that they can go to the national archives to read individual

presidential libraries and find out if a particular issue has been dealt with before. >> host: i think that leads to another important point you mentioned in such a great manner about president truman, handwriting and note dropping in the mail, but also i think that the technology, online all of the information that is now available that 20 years ago was not sure it speaking about that, that is a big change. >> guest: it is because the department has websites that will provide a lot of information. they felt they needed to provide for information and you have president obama, for example, in the campaign talking about the importance of transparency and so that becomes important and judging how department agencies are doing, so you have information there. you have a lot of books that are written, that scholars have written that the details and

transitions and what people have learned in the past. but, there are a lot of people that have gone through transition and prepared for them. for example, candidates who prepared for transition. >> host: voices of the past, so to speak. >> guest: for example, with democrats, harrison who is a lawyer and he worked in the carter administration going in with transition and he worked on the transition going out particularly on the white house beats. so, he became a repository of information as other democrats ran and they had files, so he turned over his file, which can be important including his work with job carrie on the white house. so, those files can be important

and i know one person was telling me, i think it was chris lu that when they wanted to put together a budget for the transition they looked at what kerry had done and that gave him i does right they. there are also groups like the partnership for public-- >> host: very thoughtful group. >> guest: they have brought together in 2008 and a 2012, they brought together both democrats and republicans, government officials, outside people to discuss transition and what kinds of issues there are with information. >> host: they are first rate. lets quickly moved to president-elect obama and how he looked at it. we talked about it from the sitting president bush and he is faced with this daunting task, almost 8000 pointman's, 400 judicial appointments, getting a government in places we have

discussed, getting transition, key point is how do you transition from campaigning to governing? speak about that a bit because that is key to a new presidency. >> guest: it is difficult because here you have people that have been working for you and in his case people that have been working for you since 2000. >> host: work in their hearts out. >> guest: and the compensation is almost nothing. i know one person was telling me how he had-- he had not been paid for long period of time and he had been clerking for a federal judge, so the moment that finished then he came into and worked at the state level. you are working on organizing people to get to the polls and he also was working on some policy issues and in his case

education. all of these people have been working for you and they think that they should have a place and usually the place they want to be is the white house. so, as you certainly have had experience and so it has become difficult to turn people down. >> host: it does. >> guest: it's important to do because you cannot just have campaign people. campaign people are important to have in that administration entered on the white house because they remind a president of why he is there, that they know the campaign was a promise. but, you have to balance that out. you have to balance it out with people who know the president well. it you knew your president very well. how does he like information?

how do decisions need to be made? and then you need substantive knowledge, people who are going to be-- have knowledge in foreign-policy, national security, domestic policy, the economy and particularly now because it takes so long to get appointees through. >> host: exactly. >> guest: so, there's a natural gravitation to the white house itself and that sort of thing, but the white house has certain rhythms to it from london-- one a ministration to the other and you have people that have that knowledge. of for example, in the bush and ministration andy card worked into republican administrations and new those kind of roads. then you need a knowledge of the washington community. how does the media work cracks what are the relationships on the hill like? for example with news

organizations, their needs are the same nomad or who is president, so when you come in as president and your press staff comes in, they have to be familiar with that. what are those routines? you can just do what you want everything on your terms because if you want to get-- [inaudible] >> guest: you have to understand what the dynamics are the media. >> host: you are speaking of someone who has made a very careful and full study of the presidency for a number of years now. but, you really, i think, highlighted their so many stakeholders and constituencies when a new president comes office. you have congress who feels like they are the most important group on the block, so to speak, because that is where your legislation is going. in many ways they are.

you have the press, in particular if the president is not well known to the press. senator obama had had some exposure to the national press during the campaign, but there-- you have world leaders who you have to really be very respectful to and then you have the campaign not only staff, but people who helped you get elected who felt like they help to bring you to the dance and they don't want to feel forgotten, so there is a lot of -- so methinks to do in such a short time including that first 100 days and you make the point that perhaps then we have heard that phrase went-- verse 100 days is your window of opportunity, but perhaps not the best prepared time in the white house to take advantage of it. again, going back to your starting early on the transition. how do you think president obama did in that first 100 days?

>> guest: i think he did well because if you look at the magnitude of that task that were ahead of him because he had to deal with the financial meltdown and so he had the american recovery act, which he got through early and he wanted to make early statements about issues that were important to him. he did that executive orders on closing guantánamo bay, which turned out to take a little longer than he might have anticipated. but, he signed the fair pay act and when he was campaigning for reelection in 2012, he talked about this in the american recovery act. they were things that were very important to his administration and he started on healthcare early also. if you look at the difference in the kind of the magnitude of the same-- things you have to do

early on,-- >> host: i thought i outlined them in a heartfelt way a moment ago, but you have them better organized. >> guest: to give you a sense of what they have to deal with. when eisenhower came in in january, he gave one speech, which is his inaugural address and in 100 days he gave 12 the. in obama's case in january instead of one he gave 15 and instead of 12 in his first 100 days he had 158. that is talking about a lot of different issues. when you look at the executive orders, which are going to deal with a number of issues, guantánamo bay, with presidential records and just a variety of things as well as

memorandums, they will deal with ethics, guidelines and in his first days in office in january he had nine executive orders and 10 matt-- memoranda and then hundred days, 19 executive orders and 23 memoranda, so that's a lot of work to make you have seen a lot of change over the years in technology, cute indications and so many things. i wish we had more time to talk about that. i think it would be fascinating and your views so welcome. you make the point to kind of some of president elect obama's stepping into the white house. a transition can be a disaggregate series of events and so forth. you recommend and suggest a narrative, a governing narrative to pull that together and that's

a compelling point. >> guest: i think one of the problems when you are preparing in a transition you people doing separate things like for example you have kraken todd stern working on executive orders. you have presidential appointments up a variety of people. that portfolio passes through a lot of people. you have people working on that and so working with relationships on a hill, doing press and all of those things are done separately. that is somewhat of a necessity, but what one needs to do is make that transition from what your campaign was of the presidential candidate who is the president of the united states and so what is that narrative going to be about. what is it that you are going to be doing? what is your focus going to be?

and i thought that one kind of unused opportunity that obama has had to do that is he gave a speech at georgetown university in april, of 2009, and in it he talked about the pillars of his presidency, things like healthcare and energy dealing with the budget and he laid out those things, which in the end have been important throughout this and ministration and i think people sometimes say, well, i don't know exactly what he stands for, but if you go back and you look at that and you see just what he was interested in and i think that in the end it is useful to wrap

all of those things together. if you didn't do it at the beginning, to do it at the end, but it is important to do, but in his case he really doesn't have the opportunity to create that narrative. in reagan's case one of the things he did is he put together a-- it's a small thing, but it had a large impact. to demonstrate he was no longer the candidate and that he was president he gave a formal dinner in november, and he had taken vocation which is important to do, separate yourself out. he came to washington. he gave a dinner and at that dinner he had all of the congressional leadership. he had tip o'neill in addition to having republicans. had robert strauss. people who were important in the washington community to

governing and sainted them, i'm interested in governing and i need all of your help. i think then, when he was inaugurated he immediately said that he was signing executive orders that would freeze government hiring, that would cut travel, office decorations and those sort of things because he knew symbolically that you want right at the beginning to say you are changing things, a new kind of leadership that is coming in. so, there are some things you can do like that that hold with a theme of what your presidency is about. >> host: martha kumar, i think you lead me to another fundamentally important point of your book that is so critical as we move up forward and i went to move forward here as we close to

the current administration with the candidates that are running down his presidential season should be thinking about. but, my first point of basic point is when you just made and that is, a good transition is a part of good governance. that's really, to me, at the essence something i care deeply about and many others do to is how are we going to governing. how are we going to get things done, particularly highly partisan atmosphere, which can be accelerated with all of these communication channels. so, think that is part of your conclusion. >> guest: it is. the last point in the book is the importance of management. because you have opportunities right at the beginning of your administration to make changes and that really happens as people are dealing with the crush of all of the events that they have been dealing with or issues that they had.

so, it's hard to carve out time for management and also the political payoff is not that great. i know one person was telling me that with president clinton that he was interested in management in some ways, but he knew it wasn't something that's ever going to help you. it can harm you, but it can't help you and so there were things you all did early on like creating the president's management council, creating-- and keeping that in both of those have been retained. >> host: exactly. >> guest: who in the public would care about that? but, it makes a difference. >> host: it does. it makes a difference at the outcome of jobs or whatever the issue might be. martha, in a couple minutes we have remaining what should the candidates be doing now and what

should president obama and his team be doing at this point time? it's a little early with the december timeline, but we are getting close to another transition here. >> guest: i think the gathering of the same kinds of information, what is it your administration did in certain types of situations so that with new people coming in face a situation they have some history of what went before and then planning out how you are going to use the say for example use the president's management council. there is currently legislation that is passed the house-- passed the senate, rather and gone to the house that would create the presence management council and also creates a group of career people that would be a transition director through.