>> two answers teco this. first of all the investigations ongoing but this was not a corporate decision from my point of view, to my best knowledge the corporation, no board meeting has authorized this, engineers that put this in for whatever reason and i would like to find out. >> so assume that you're testifying under oath; is that correct? >> i understand it, sir. >> okay. so what you're saying the senior, the president of volkswagon international did not when itut this happened? >> what i said was to my understanding this was not a corporate decision, this was somethinrag individuals did. >> okay. now, that's not what i was led

to believe but i take you at your word so i'll ask the second question. senior management, ie, the president of volkswagon international, the executive vice president, whoever your senior day-to-day corporate officers are, when they they learn of this action? >> to my understanding also around the september 3rd note if i if i -- notific au -- >> yes, sir. >> do you believe that senior level corporate managers

administrators didn't know -- you can have an honorable disagreement about emissions standards, and we've had that on this committee, but as somebody voted for the clean-act amendments and conservative who believes that if it's the law, it should, be implemented and corporate special international corporations should honor those laws, your company has not, i don't know what to -- the penalty should be. it should be more than a slap on wrist. in every other case since i've been a congressmen when we had

problems with manufacturers of -- automobile manufacturers, in every case it's been something happened that was really a mistake, an accident that they just didn't foresee it. that's not the case here. there was a knowingly and will ful zilings to deceive in one of the most important markets in the world and that's just wrong. thank you, sir. >> thank you. >> mr. kennedy for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you for being here today. i understand that you said there's investigations ongoing. i appreciate that and i recognize that. do i want to go back to what a number of my colleagues have gone to in regards to the timeline. my understanding and from your testimony with us in the spring, i think specifically may of 2014 was when volkswagon became aware

that there were some issue in regards to emissions, correct? >> yeah. it was may and december that launched investigations into the emissions, the company itself vw started investigation as to what led with regards to the emissions testing; is that right? >> i can't answe ir this really. i know the answers to remedy the findings were discussed in carbon epa. they have gone investigations may 2014 and december 20114, i don't know. i know they did this afterwards when we started to flesh the cost of the new software. >> so if i tell you that epa and car continued investigation after that preliminary correspondent -- from may,

proposed a fix. is that accurate? >> yes. >> 500,000 vehicles to deal with the issue. in may testing, may 16, vw had proposed accurately fixed the underlying issue. may sixth through july 2015, on on-road testing. what i'mad getting at here, sir, july showed test results prompting sec -- technical meetings. vw m disclosed that there were several issues in 2015 model of improved ser, had a sect -- so

there was some knowledge at least in july of this year that therehi was some -- meeting you're referring to, i don't know. i can tell you that the first issue got back to me and my intention was on the 20th of july when my people of product marketing came to me and said we don't gets 6diesel certified. i immediately wrote a letter, e-mail to dr. jacob for engineering and escalating this. it was twofold. i don't know whether this is right. b, information missing. so also my team with the national safe company did not have this information. and then only in the weeks afterwards iton started to unfo.

>> sir,wa if i am understanding your testimony correctly, this is not a company decision, this was a decision made by a number of individuals yet to be ascertained underneath levels of the company that doesn't affect company and the board. >> that's my understanding. >> four individuals who have been suspended; is that right? >> i don't know, this is press report. >> to your knowledge has anybody been suspended to this point? >> i can't shareyo names with y. >> has there anybody that's been suspende>>d at this point, has anybody as of now after volkswagon for knowing of some inconsist -- inconsistency --

>> i cannot say names per germany law. i think depending on the finds we look at and how much money to fix the cars and how much money to compensate customers for what we did. this is a whole lot of money, i'm quite sure. >> the overall question from myself and colleagues, this is a decision that you're indicating was made by people underneath you, it does get to the overall integrity of the company and so what f you can -- if you can say is going to be restored for the structure of value

>> those things have been developed in software department. it was totally out of my jurisdiction of steering. and the second to get your answer hopefully in the right way, with compliance investigation we have to streamline and use this opportunity in order to get back together and to manage and it has to be really clear. >> thank you, mr. chairman. several things, first, you opted not to challenge the vw decision,ch the research that ws done. so you're not challenging the research that was done. you did knowingly violate; is

that correct? >> i don't understand the question, i'm sorry. >> youde opted not to challenge our appeal findings. does that mean that you knowingl y violated -- >> no, no, sir. >> you did challenge an appeal of the vw findings? >> i did not challenge because software actions, recalls, in the millions for this company is not doing business -- i was services and parts. i have been to the product safety committee. i know how the system is working with all the experts and we get a seal of approval. i'm not a technical expert. >> i know the epa finds -- we just had a situation was fined

$17,000 a day because they were allowing dust coming out of chicken house, we have seen steel met also being signed 3-$5 million daily to clean up discharge in a river. weio have seen coal mines. there ought to be consequences for this violation, so i'm curious, i assume you're accruing for what could be a fair - s- what could an expected penalty for having violated the laws here in the united states. can you share with us or will you share with us what you're accruingwh on your balance sheet for penalties? >> for theie time being, the company has accrued directly 6.5 billion euros in this first. maybe this is enough, maybe this is not enough, i don't know. the rest will have to be worked

out with specific experts as we hire enough experts, i can tell you. >> thank you. you have to provide epa conformity with standards, and from what i understand the device was not included in that certificate of conformity; is thatic correct? >> it's my understanding, yes, sir. >> can you share why someone would try to deceive the american government? >> because those people who did the applications most probably did not know, did not know that it was in there. >> who -- couldin you share -- o is responsible for this to include description, is this limited to one or two people? >> we have an office, which is

all eeo in in aburn hills, they work together, they get all the information, all the results testing, technical and then they file the applications for conformity in all those. mr. horn, thank you for testifying for us. we've allre been -- many of us have been talking about defeat device. for the american public to understand, can you explain what this defeat device is and how it functions? >> to myvi understanding the defeat ze vice is -- device, a software code and which detects the software, detect whether it's on dino testing or driven, one, fory example, steering

wheel. nothing changes. the cars on the streets it changes, so many sensors in there. one of the examples people gave me on how this device, software code works. hidden in million codes, so if you don't know this, very difficult to detect from my understanding. >> thank you. >> recognizer. -- >> thank you, mr. chairman. i sent to my senior staff which is an owner of your car. i remember when he bought the car and how excited she was about her clean diesel, the letter says you do not need to take any action at this time, all we ask is for your patience. i have to tell you if i were a driver of one of these vehicles

that's contributing 40 timeses of emissions, i would want that addressed right away. i have a son and grandchild who uses inhaler, i'm not excited about contributing or driving a car that has that kind of emission. so how much patience is my staff supposed to have, what's the timeline here? what's the best scenario and the worst scenario in terms of timeline for fixing this? >> for generation cars 15, 16, timeline beginning ofth next ye. complete fix. for the generation two cars, still in development, this won't start from my judgment before middle of next year and for the generation one cars which is the biggest, which is the biggest fleet, i cannot give you a date right now but within the next

couple of weeks we'll start discussing those scenarios with epa, development guides. >> these cars unfixed could be on the road for more than a year or two years? >> more than a year, definitely. >> i wanted to follow up on a question, it sounded like you were saying that the fix could manage fuel economy, engine performance and emissions, that all that could be fixed. if sha so, why didn't volkswagon do that initially? why didn't you make a car that would achieve those goals? >> i think that's a great question. >> i could only assume that cheating was cheaper? >> to mywr understanding people have made wrong decisions. >> let me ask you this, have you

considered financial compensation, for example, allowing customers to actually return the car for what they paid for? >> this is one of the areas we are looking into right now in terms of how to compensate all customers, yes? >> providing rebait for loss value of the car? >> sure. >> and what about right now if i have one of those cars and i wanted a lowner, would you compensate theer dealer to givee a lowner instead of driving the polluted car? >> we would have to discuss and consider this. right now ill say no, honestly because the epa have set the carsas legal and safe to drive. >> even though you know that there's up to 40 times more pollution, if i went to my deal er who might because they're in a fix, say, okay, we'll give

you a loaner, the company would not do anything to make your customer happy? >> so as general policy, this is exactly the reason we give the dealers discretion of refunds and they could use at their discretion in order to have customers and cases and whether a loaner car or whatever think think is best in the customer's situation. they can do, no questions asked, yes. >> but there is no policy that dealers could say they could -- that loaners would be available? i realize 500,000loaners would be probably a hard thing to do, but you see how that would a desirable remedy for many people? >> i understand your point, yes. >> yeah. tell you as a

consumer advocate all of my life, this is pretty shocking for people to find out that the company -- we've had a number of recalls, i've had a recall in one of my cars, but to find out that a company has deliberately cheated, it seems to me that asking customers for patience is just really not sufficient. i heard people on the radio who were repeatedly saying i just want you to take back my car and give me the amount of money that i paid for it. i don't want that car, i don't a fix because it may not provide exactly what i thought i was buying in the first place. i would hope that your company would consider that as a primary remedy and i yield back. >> thank you. >> five minutes of questions. >> thank you, mr. chairman.

let me as stressed -- i think and i am not here to provide you advise but i think she is giving you good advise, i have been on the subcommittee for ten years, i have been through toyota, general motors and now we are doing this investigation and let me d just suggest to you and let me suggest to your corporate structure in germany that being minimizing the problem that is faced by consumers, dealers and suppliers is not in your best interest and it will hurt you, soou i would -- i would be aggressively compliant and aggressive trying to make it right for your customers, dealers and suppliers because in the grand scheme of things, i

actually will be less costly in of dollars, in terms of reputation and just in terms of the -- of the endurance of the brand in the united states, which you already heard from members of the united states which is significant. our history with your company, are significant, they go back a significant way. now, i've gotten that off my chest. let me just ask you, ones again you've been asked before, but are these vehicles safe to drive? >> yes, epa has said, they are safe to drive. >> this is unlike the other recalls that we talked about in this subcommittee, problems with air bags, problems with electronic trouble controls, these do not pose immediate jeopardy to the drivers? >> i trust the judgment of the epa. >> trusting judgment is --

that's what we are doing here today is we are talking that trust factor has been erodeed. let me ask you, you strez you -- you stress that you are the ceo of america; is that correct? >> yes. >> do you travel to germany? >> not much. once a month. >> once a month. and this problem has been -- has evolved, the information about the problem, have you gone to engineers over in germany and said, guys, what's up here, how did this happen, have you looked at any lines of software code where someone has identified for you this is happened or held in your hands a defeat device that was added to automobile? >> taken out i've taken out of conference rooms and talk to go

engineers on how we make this right and how is this possible, we didn't know ourselves. >> do you understand that -- here is a software program, it wasn't written by one person, this has to be a team of people who were working on this, you have the rascals, the espn and the united -- epa and the unites and we will trick them. somehow you're to to integrate and nobody knows a darn thing about it. that's what you'rern asking us o believe. and you understand why if you heard frit a number of members -- heard it from a number of

members. have you asked that question in volkswagon in germany? >> who are superory to me -- superior to me is no longer. he resigned for other reasons. >> i don't know what to say. apparently in public domain, there was suggestion that volkswagon in an effort to try to diesel high-mileage vehicle was in the process of building software foran emissions of another company, the blue-tech software. >> i read in this newspapers. >> why did they look at this and stop negotiations for those leases, what change, did we

develop some technology, did we develop defeat device? these are questions that have to be answered. mr. chairman, i recognizeth andi appreciate mr. horn being here and i i think that we are doing this hearing prior to the time that your document production deadline has expired so we recognize that you are here voluntarily and sincere effort, but let me just say all of us represent dealers, consumers, suppliers and their lives and livelihoods are extremely important to us and that's what we haveoo to keep first and foremost. i yelled back, mr. chairman. >> and the chair recognizes the gentleman from texas, mr. green. >> thankrm you, mr. chairman. you'll see members come in and out during the day. when i first heard about it i

was amazed that a company that's as great as volkswagon could let this happen and, you know, even to the executives maybe who didn't know because the image of the company not only in our country but in europe is so great. our committee wants to get some answers and i would like to understand more about volkswagon's own investigations. news reports discuss external investigations by volkswagon. please explain and how they are different from each other. >> the investigations started, talked yesterday to head of supervisions in september of this year, went on group revision department, group audit department until september 29th for one week and then all the

documents, all the preliminary documents were turned over to the american law firm jones day who is investigating this on behalfpe of supervisory board. >> so that was the only one you had that was the auditors from september 22nd to the 29. are there any other investigations volkswagon is conducted? >> to my understanding after the notice of vialation from september, these investigations have started right away and this is what i told you to my best knowledge. i don't know of any other investigations. >> do you know if the actions in the united states or germany or in both or everywhere where volkswagon sold the vehicles? >> worldwide. >> would you commit to sharing

the investigations with the committee tom results of the investigations? >> i commit to get as much information as possible to this committee, yes. >> thank you. last week one news reported that the steering committee, supervisory board met last wednesday, and that's a quote. what were these preliminary findings that were revealed last wednesday? >> i'm still a little bit confused with the folks clicking all the time. can you repeat your question? >> the supervisory board met last wednesday of findings into the probe of the scam, what were these preliminary findings that were on last wednesday? >> own supervisory board. i don't have access to preliminary findings. >> can you get a copy of it and share it with our committee?

>> i canr definitely try, sir. >> parred -- parred dowsh >> to provide more clarity into this issue. >> again, like my colleague, i appreciate you being voluntarily but it would be great if we could actually get that in our committee for our investigations according to september 30th news report, volkswagon supervisory member, these people who allow this to happy or made the decision, they're acting criminally, they must take personal responsibility. mr. horn, do you agree with that?

>> yes, sir. >> do i have your commitment to full cooperation and finding, addressing the roots of the deception? >> sure, yes, sir. >> our committee is ongoing our investigation and i appreciate you being here. mr. chairman, i yield back my time. >> thank you. for the rest of the members with questions,th i know we have to break in 20 minutes so we have seven people that want to speak. so we are going to be short on the timeframe with this. >> thank you, i appreciate it. as you heard from others who have owned cars and -- i am one of those as well. my motherof was able to afford r first new car, which was a value wag oan >> i have inherited my mother's

beetle, which i still have. .. t a jetta. when it got close to 200,000 miles, my mother convinced me that volkswagen's couldn't go on forever. she might have been wrong. i sold that car and drove a passat until this summer and got 376,000 miles. the people who bought it for me are going to tell me when it crosses 400,000, they think there won't be any problem doing that. passatckup to my 2003 that was going and going like the energizer rabbit, i bought a 2012 volkswagen diesel. everybody else is talking about what our consumers thinking. you are looking at him. i'm your volkswagen driver who has always trusted your company and i'm very disappointed. so what are we going to do?

that you'veated notified the customers. i have checked with the previous owner. they havtthe car from a friend they have not received any notice that this 2012 diesel passat is affected. when you go to the web site it says the epa that you receive notice from the epa that some of your two-liter four-cylinder tdi vehicles don't comply and among included vehicles of course is the 2012. if i didn't have, because i'm not skilled like chairman murphy i'm not skilled and i couldn't take the car part. i had a hard enough time figuring out how to get a top of off come the plastic lid off the engine to take a look at it but when you see that and some of the cars are affected here's one and the original articles referenced in the 14th and 15th but didn't say anything about the 12th and 13th and

then you see a volkswagen document that says discrepancies related to vehicles with type b.a. 189 engine that i'm looking at my manual and i'm looking at things on the engine block and it doesn't say anything about it 189 engine. the team on the committee here and in my staff have figured out i am affected. we know that that this was done with great trouble. i received no letter. i can't tell for sure and i will tell you what was interesting we found that there was actually eight -- in the u.k. and you are un-american and i'm talking about american where you can plug in your vin number. i would encourage you to consider that because while you may think you've notified everybody, not everybody is capable of taking apart the engine and figuring out if it's a 189 and the other big question is in my generation my generation one in generation two they tell me i'm generation to which i found surprising based on the numbers.

you confirm i'm a generation to? >> if you have a 2012 passat i would think so, yes. >> this is something else you might want to put into, pretty simple web site that takes the vin number and says generation one in generation two. as i'm listening today to fix to the generation two is more simple than the fix to the generation one. am i correct in that today? it's a simpler fix for generation to them one. and then i would have to echo what representative schakowsky and dr. burgess had to say. when you buy a vehicle even if you bought it used and you are looking in the manual and it says under federal emissions control system defect warranty was designed built and equipped so as to inform at the time of sale with all applicable regulations in the united states environmental protection agency epa and is free from defects in materials etc.. i believe that i was sold

something that was different than what was reported to be and it was the volkswagen company. i think you are you're much better off to come up with a program that buys these cars back because you know i understand your folks in chattanooga made this mistake in the folks in germany that you have got to restore trust in one of the ways to do that is to stand behind your vehicle. one of the reasons that i like the company is on my 1990s version something was wrong with the pain. no questions asked. when i took it and to roanoke they said not a problem. we will take care of it and it was done. never had another problem. this is a much bigger problem and volkswagen needs to stand up and say okay we understand. we will buy your car back with fair market value at that vehicle was prior to this notice coming out.

without i see my time is up and i yield back. >> again thank you. we have now 12 minutes. i'm asking those two please keep their question short. the chair recognizes the chairman from kentucky. >> thank you for appearing mr. horn. i suspect i should be feeling a sense of -- being here today because ford escapes and lincoln mk caesar made in my district. you are out of the marketplace but i'm not taking any joy in any of this. i just have a couple of quick questions. the article a i read said there were 11 million vehicles worldwide affected by this? they contain the defeat device. i guess there's no added cost to put it in. there's just a lot of computer code read without the right? >> it seems very logical. >> my question is how many

countries that these 11 million vehicles were sold and have a mission standard that would have been defeated by this device? >> if the united states we are talking about half a million cars roughly out of 11 million, what's are germany's emission standards for instance? are they stricter than the united states? >> there are many countries affected. countries in europe are affected. there are different than the u.s.. you have currently five and there are two differences. first of all my kitchen oxide is much more stringent here. it's 5 grams i think per mile or whatever and in europe it's 30 to 40 so this is quite higher in europe but in europe would have stricter is the particulate emissions. instead of particulates coming out the european laws are much

stricter than the u.s.. >> my question with this defeat device and 11 million vehicles helped deceive the european countries standards as well? >> i can only give you my understanding at this point in time but there are lots of european countries investigating this and we are working with our agencies and the german kva which is the responsible agency. this is being investigated. my understanding is there are no scars as well but to the degree it's affecting those emissions emissions. >> i just want to say before closing that is very refreshing to hear my colleagues on the other side defend the clean air act and talk about emissions. i yield back.

>> mr. collins you are recognized for minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman. one of the last two question you i guess what i picked up here and i hope you can relate back to your board, the folks running volkswagen bank in germany is that their response so far is inadequate. i would tell you from my perspective it's a sign of arrogance. it's a sign of not admitting to the severity of your problem. i will tell you i have a way of thinking and i cannot accept vw's portrayal of this is something by a couple of rogue software engineers. i would begin by saying isn't intellectual property a very important part of what makes vw vw. you are constantly looking for breakthrough technology that you can tap? that's a big part of your company, is that? you pride yourself on that engineering.

so you are having us believe and i think this is a way an engineer's mind works, back in 2000 you were trying to figure out a way to have clean diesel top performance and your engineers -- the knocks in missions were not even close. would that be true? >> and views. they couldn't get through it. it was an insurmountable roadblock. they couldn't get performance and emission control at the same time. they were 40 times over the knocks in mission. >> it seems to me largely what you're saying. >> if i'm working at vw engineering and always looking for intellectual property that i can tap to give me a competitive advantage in none of us is a problem and i have to tell you the problem goes way up the chain. we can't do it. the knox standard in the u.s. are not what they need to be. we can't do it. go work harder and find a solution.

people are coming back to be still can't find a solution. all of a sudden to software engineers come in and say we found a solution. we have got it. we fixed this. now you were telling me these two engineers snuck that computer code into the software and no one said this is breakthrough technology. i think we need to run this up the ladder with our attorney. and we need to pass this. this is intellectual property that will give us an advantage. we had a breakthrough. we went from 40 times emissions had you were trying to -- vw's trying to get the united states of america to believe these are a couple of rogue engineer's? i categorically reject that. your entire organization is incompetent when it comes to trying to come up with intellectual property and i

don't believe that for a second or they are complicit at the highest level. a massive cover-up that continues today. in the five minutes that i have been here as an engineer and i'm not a ph.d. my mind immediately jumps to with this being true why didn't we look and asked the questions what the fix was? this didn't happen one day. this didn't happen one month. your engineers were looking at this i can tell you for many months. they were stumped. they couldn't come up with one and all of a sudden the solution is there an vw is trying to tell us the united states of america and this congress that rogue engineers your entire department should be terminated because this would have been massive rate through technology that would have given vw a true advantage not by cheating but true damaging clean diesel

technology. i would like you to take that back to your board and have them ask that question. what was going on in the engineering world because i can tell you personally i categorically object everything that vw was saying about a couple of rogue engineers and i can tell you suspending three folks, it goes way higher than that. what i would like to propose and again i may financial guy in an entrepreneur, i would suggest you be honest to your shareholders. 6.5 billion euros is off by an order of magnitude. 5000 vehicles at $40,000 apiece, suggest you start doing that tomorrow. that's 20 billion there. i would suggest you are off by an order of magnitude. he told us today you are set back 8 billion. i would say you are in the ballpark. 6.8 not even close even close to

even close them even close to let that mr. chairman i yield back. >> the chairman yields back and we now recognize chairman wells for five minutes. >> thank you very much. sir thank you for coming in but i just want to express to you some of the things that i've been hearing from vermonters. first of all we have vw customers and we have vw dealers in red states and blue states and they are as mad as hell. some of the questions that came to me from vermonters and i want to submit this for the record and ask you vw to answer these questions from vermonters but let me give you a reflection of what they said. number one what will vw be reading when you were in jail backs number two kavetches wonder what the hell you were thinking. three, how can we help her monitors to cut these limits? why should the u.s. allow you to sell vehicles in this country? five, vw is that lance armstrong

of the industry. these questions go on and on and reflect the anger that folks have about the deception. the last question, how do you sleep at night? how do you call yourself a member of the human race when you knowingly -- and i talked to some of our vw dealers. daycare and they note you do as well. one of the dealers said this is on a scale of enron and bernie madoff. that is how unnecessary and willful at once. they stand by their employees to vw dealers but this is going to be an expense to them because they're not selling cars that are bringing in profits. they are going to have to pay out of their own pockets and they will do that because they are loyal to their employees. i have one major question. just last week bp reached a settlement with the justice department over the massive 2010 gulf oil spill that killed 11

workers and devastated the environment and the economy of the gulf coast. that settlement allowed dp to shift more than half of the 21 billion-dollar fine to the american taxpayer by taking advantage of a loophole in the u.s. tax code. my view that's wrong. the wrongdoer, not the taxpayer should pay all of the settlement. the question i have is this. will you commit here today under oath that vw will not use this loophole to write off any future settlement payments related to the fraudulent and deceptive that two buddies to which vw has already admitted? >> if you want an answer under a i would a i would have to understand the tax loopholes and

i don't understand them. >> let me explain it very simply. bp got the ride off about half of the cost of that and that shifts the burden to the taxpayer instead of their shareholders. >> i understanding is we work hard in order to get this right and they should not be a burden to the taxpayers. it should not. >> thank you. another question taken up i know you individually are appalled at what happened that vw and you have asked the question how did happen? someone somewhere made a decision to make it happen. if someone somewhere implemented that decision. you have asked yourself how that happened, correct? >> yes sir. >> and your answer to yourself is what? >> my answer to myself is that i do everything to help our

dealers and customers and to be there for my company and arm ploys to get through this crisis in the u.s.. >> i appreciate that i night know it's true. you have a good reputation serve but i ask another question. you know the company and you you have asked yourself who and how and in your own mind i'm asking you to share with us your own view about who and what. that could happen the corporate structure of vw. >> i think this is speculation. i am reading newspapers as well and there are been lots of articles around that and from my personal feelings there was pressure in the system to get resolutions with cost pressure as well. this was discussed already. i think it's dead wrong to put corporate profits before people.

when we get to the point we put people first and not pressure of corporate. >> what people in my department? my time is up. >> i now recognize the gentleman from texas. >> think you and mr. horn thank you for joining us today in an obviously touch -- top situation for your company. vw's actions damaged the trust of the american people as well as the. amber: for billions around the globe. they have also damaged their customers, their dealers and their shareholders and i hope bw way you continue to work on the correct and fair resolution of those issues. i want to get more in the weeds now to try to go through and fill-in the blanks on the record on some dates what, where and when as we talked about before. in may of 2014 independent researchers published a report that first identified higher than expected on road emissions

of vw vehicles which prompted the investigations by the epa. question number one is weighted vw first become aware of this research? >> in the end of april when it was published. the end of april and mid-may i got information about this. >> what steps did vw take to evaluate the conclusions in research at that time? >> first of all to acknowledge that emissions violations, higher emissions are not legal and secondly engineering departments were supposed to reject those testing results on our own equipment in order to facilitate this and thirdly to correct this with respect to software actions which have been implemented in the end of last year. >> where was the stun? with the stunned volkswagen germany or bolts like nus and who was responsible? >> the software applications management for the engines and

for the exhaust systems are being done in germany. the engine and drive department with the research and development division. >> okay. the epa described a series of presentations or discussions with vw in the wake of research in may of 2014. who would vw was interacting with epa? is part of vw america or if he j.? >> that is something i would have to check and provided the records next week. >> what did vw america understand about the calls of the higher emissions between may of 2014 and the voluntary recall in other words what did you and your team that vw america know what was going on? what did vw germany tell you? >> to my understanding they were developing software fixes in order to get a second line in

three different versions which i didn't understand to be very honest in order to bring this to the car but also as i said all these things are vetted through the product safety committee which is also looking at the track record and in this context i have trusted those processes that everything was according to the book 100%. >> at that time nobody had vw america -- then in december of 2014 vw conducted a voluntary recall that at least in part so to address the higher on road emissions in model year 2009 through 2014 vehicles. would you explain what you understand this recall was intended to do to correct the studies?

>> the results of the study of the university of west virginia of our testing to bring the cars back in compliance. >> the emissions problem is implemented as part of that recall that recall didn't resolve the issue higher on road emissions so the question is who was responsible for developing that technical solution implemented in december 2014? >> the engine drivetrain development division in germany. >> what world did vw america have been validating this solution? >> the office in auburn hills would do the applications. as a facility in oxnard and california who also help those folks in testing but to my understanding -- as far school equal situation is concerned. >> just to be clear to vw

america did not develop them played no part in the solution? it may have helped validate the solution. >> at that taught did you or anyone that vw america have any knowledge of the alleged defeat the vice? >> which point in time? >> when you're beginning to rollout a recall solution did you have any knowledge? anybody in vw america? >> mind standing not otherwise i would have hoped they would affect and for me about it. >> i now recognize ms. clarke for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman and i would like to thank you mr. horn for taking the time and giving us this much background in the knowledge of what has taken place. i've heard a couple of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle refer to what has

occurred is cheating but i would like to say to you that i believe it was an intentional deception. i think we need to say it as it is. this wasn't a game. this was an intentional deception to bring something on the market that did not meet the standards. i want to go back to something my colleagues just raised about your center at oxnard. understand for the better part of the past year vw was interacting about they higher emissions involving your vehicle. what is the purpose of the facility and is it as the article suggested belt to help volkswagen meade emission standards? >> in my understanding yes. strictly connected to the research and development department in germany to get the

cars to legal compliance into the u.s. better. >> how many employees at there? >> i would have to look. >> if you could just provide us with that. what was the role of the facility understanding the test results presented by car showing unexpectedly high on road emissions? >> at this point in time i can't answer. i don't have the understanding. i know that our department was interfacing with epa for the compliance for the education and everything. >> but you mentioned auburn hills. what is the role of the auburn hills office? >> to include compliance with the u.s. authorities. >> so do the oxnard and i burnt hills facilities work together?

>> now, yes. >> so prior to the unveiling of this deception they were separate entities and they didn't interface? >> i think they work together. my explanation is about the structure of the situation of these facilities. >> okay but they collaborated. >> i hope so. >> my concern is that if we have these facilities designed specifically to address the issues of emissions of testing g and they fail that speaks to a whole nother level perhaps of collusion with respect to this whole software debacle. have you looked at were done and

the internal investigations with respect to these facilities? >> as part of the internal investigation? my understanding is testing on the basis of the legal test requirements. >> so the engineers would not have known the code is what you are saying? >> they didn't do independent road tests. that's what i'm alluding to. >> okay, let me jump to the whole idea of a environmental impact. how seriously does volkswagen take its commitment to the environment's responsibility? >> this is deeply difficult to understand in this context but it's embedded in art corporate culture. responsibility towards their employers and environment.

the certification is the most energy-efficient plant in the world and have a commitment to reduce carbon -- and whether he plans on india or china it's up to the highest volkswagen standards. >> part of the corporate culture and assuming that's throughout including your engineers. this is a part of the ethos. how do you explain this deviation, this massive deviation? >> the majority of volkswagen employees which is 600,000 that asked the same question and it's a relevant question. i hope that these investigations

will definitely find out what drove those people to articles the articles and what we read out there that drove these people to these decisions. >> i yield that. >> mr. tonko is recognized for five minutes. >> mr. horn these vehicles performance without the knocks emissions associated with diesel. members have asked about how volkswagen intends to make consumers hole and they do want to lend my voice to that. because consumers including people in my district purchase a car believing it would be a clean environmentally friendly choice they have every right to feel defrauded. consumers were sold a bill of goods that simply does not exist. i think it's like a whatever fixes to comply with emissions standards will hurt the vehicles performance in other ways this is not what consumers thought they were buying. it's not what dealers thought they were selling.

the retail value in these vehicles which i'm sure was the selling point has certainly been destroyed. volkswagen has a lot to think about i believe in terms of how it intends to make right consumers. let me ask typically when deciding whether to issue a recall or develop a solution does volkswagen conduct itself and can did -- conditions testiy to reconfirm the results of the study from may of 2014? >> i can't speak to what they specifically tested. in july 2014 i was involved -- informed that they acknowledge the testing results and were developing -- to bring those costs into compliance. >> a lot was said about defeat devices and we are talking a defeat device here. has volkswagen operations been impacted by defeat devices in the past?

>> in the context after september 3 i understood there was an issue here in 1974, yes. that's what i understand. >> what measures were taken by the company to make certain there was better scrutiny and better oversight of the potential for defeat device application. >> that's a great question and i can't get you dancing out. >> was something done? >> in 1974 was 12 years old. i don't know. >> well history is history. we miss that so we return the books and read about. what was done of anything to address defeat device applications? >> the investigations go back to this time. >> to the corporate measure get put into play to address defeat devices? >> the answers i don't know sir. >> i hope you can provide that

to the committee. i will hold the record open. and if i could confirm some of the information we have received volkswagen initiated a voluntary recall in december of 2014 that intended in part two -- knocks emissions. is that correct? >> can you repeat the question? >> volkswagen initiated a voluntary recall in december of 2014. who have volkswagen proposed the recall? >> the technical engineering department in -- in conjunction with the product safety committee worldwide. >> what explanation was given to consumers about why december 2014 recall was necessary? >> i would have to look into the documents on what reproach to those consumers. i don't know. >> you will provide that to the committee please.

>> its public anyhow. >> what explanation was given to regulators about why that december 2014 recall the necessary? >> that something will will have to provide in the document. >> what fixed it the volkswagen organization implement for cars brought in under that recall? >> new software versions have been brought into the onboard steering units. >> duet volkswagen develop that? >> the engine and driver development software treatment department in germany. >> and did they know at the time that it would not work? >> i don't know that. my understanding was that it would work. otherwise the product safety committee would not have her release this version for application in the markets.

>> i thank you for your responses and i look forward to the additional information and again i would spam behalf of the consumers of the 20th congressional district of new york and the country and around the world we deserve a sound explanation and a fix that will respond to the environmental damage and consumer fraud. >> yes sir, thank you. >> ms. degette has a final question. >> first mr. chairman i ask unanimous consent to put mr. welch's document into the record. i just have one last question because you told the whole bunch of us on this committee that after that west virginia university study in may of 2014 everybody was running around trying to figure out what was going on with these cars and why there was a discrepancy between the past that your engineers didn't know the answer but in

fact the discrepancy was because of a willful act of engineers in germany in the first place, correct? >> that's my understanding. >> and that information about that discrepancy never made it to germany said they could tell your people what was wrong? is that what you are testifying to hear today? >> i don't understand what you're trying to say. >> he said your people were trying to figure out why there was a discrepancy but there were some people who knew and those people who wrote that deceptive -- in the first place pretty telling me that they never told the u.s. people what the problem was and why there was a discrepancy? >> this was an investigative study in detail to study and develop the fixes. of course they were informing their u.s. colleagues. >> did they tell their u.s. colleagues that there was this

deceptive code and that was what was causing the discrepancy yes or no? >> i don't think so. >> thank you mr. horn. that concludes our questions for now. this hearing is not over but i would appreciate more questions from committee members. we would appreciate a quick and honest response to those as well this hearing is going to adjourn for a couple of hours to recess for a couple of hours while the republican conference meets. we will reconvene after that meeting. thank you very much. >> thank you. [inaudible conversations]

>> we reconvene the subcommittee of oversight investigation hearing on volkswagen cheating allegations and initial questions. we have mr. brooks here as a witness and let me go into this. are you aware that the committee is holding an investigative hearing and when doing so have the practice of taking testimony under oath idea have any objections to test a mind map under oath? the chair advises under the rules of the house committee you are entitled to be advised by counsel. do either of you desired to be advised by counsel during your testimony today? both witnesses indicate no. please rise and raise your right hand i will swear u.n.. i will r you in. do you swear that the testimony you about to give is the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth. thank you. both witnesses have been now underthat you are

oath. we'll now allow you to each give a five minute summary of your opening statement. thether members of subcommittee. we appreciate the opportunity to testify on the matter of the environmental protection agency. grundler. i'm joined today by my colleague the brooks director of office of civil enforcement division. enforcement program and develop and prosecutor civil administrative and judicial cases. epa sent a no,it's of violation notice of violation of clean act of volkswagen.

audiing that volkswagen, diesel cars for model years 2009 that15 include software circumvent epa's emission standards. volkswagen manufactured and software in the electronic control module of these vehicles. is being tested for compliance. put simply, these cars contain turns off or reduces they run -- effectiveness of emission normally.hen driving this is known as a defeat device. the design feature is in cars emitting up to 40 times the to ensurehat allows that public health is protected. contains a switch. including the position of the wheel, the vehicle speed, the duration of the and pressure.tion

all new cars sold in the united states must have an epa issued certificate of conformity demonstrating that the car meets standards.ssion by making and selling vehicles for advices that allows higher level of emissions, vw violating multiple important clean air act. these violations are very serious. not only because the device resultses in excess emissions, after the highe emissions were discovered, vw concealed the facts from epa, the state of california and from consumers. are emitting more oxide. been linkedsure has with a range of serious health effects.

an ongoingin the midst of vw's action. however, at this point, we're unable to provide further details investigation because of the release of such information enforcementdize as investigation. epa will continue to work closely with the california air resources board during the .nvestigation our agencies work very closely together on the implementation and the oversight of the vehicle emissions program. we intend to assess the scope of under the clean air act. we also intend to assess the economic benefit to vw with noncompliant and pursue penalties as well as assess the excess pollution from vw's violation.

there acutely aware of impact of these violations on consumers. we have provided frequentedly questions and answers to our website. on september 25th, my office sent a letter to all auto them knowes letting that we are stepping up our activities. history of plus year our program, we have updated and adapted our approach to compliance, oversight and changed.y have that this oversight ensures the benefit of clean air emissions standards are realized. thank you for the opportunity to witnesses this morning. we welcome your questions. >> mr. brooks, you don't have a

statement. you issued a joint statement? okay, thank you. now i'm going to recognize myself for five minutes. make sure you, on. the mic in december of 2014, vw recall toa voluntary duress -- what information did you about the cause and the proposed solution to advance ofsion in that recall the 2014, once learned ofand epa emissions, there were technical conversations between the air resources board and volkswagen. lead onia took the exploring what the problem was vehicles. my understanding they received stories different

plausible reasons why these vehicles may not be performing to.hey supposed chemical based reasons, physical based reasons. what the remedy that was proposed was described to fix a problem with the vehicle concerning how it's operated under different temperatures. sensors weredosing used to make the emission properly.stem work at the time they were told by state of california to proceed. but that california was going to make sure vehicles to that the fix was effective. theas not effect based on testing by california and resources board. furtherou conduct any evaluations and conclusions and proposed solutions to advance the recall. what process did you have in them.cting with

>> epa and california have a when itong partnership comes to oversight and compliance. sometimes california takes the matters.hese sometimes epa takes the lead ones matters. year, we hadlast to lead with respect to the anddai-kia investigation subsequent action. california volunteered to stake the lead on this matter. during 2014, what is happening now as we speak. to determineng what is the right recall solution to address these excess emissions. vw's responsibility to identify aat was wrong and propose fix. that fix did not work. most of the interactions were theeen california and company. epa participated in some of them. actively much more involved in 2015 when california

produced their test resultses on the proposed fix of these vehicles. that data showed there still remained very high and emissions. excess >> who did you have these going backns with vw communicating while they're toking and they're talking you about these results? part of those conversations. it was my team and the california counterparts. my understanding is those conversations included both officials from vw of america as well as from officials from germany. >> do you know their names for the record? >> i do not. >> are those things you can get for us >> yes. be important. >> now technical question. here is this switch that when in position for an emissions test, made a change in how this emissionson also the

will be lower. the other position, the high.ons were quite is it possible to just keep that switch in the position of low be inons and they could compliance. does that damage the engine or significantly? do you have any idea? >> those are exactly the same questions we are asking volkswagen right now. it's not actually a switch, sir. what we call a dual calibration strategy. to vehicle is programmed work two different ways. when the vehicle senses when a test, it very quickly goes into clean mode. it does not sense the very specific parameters that are specified in federal test it goes into a high pollution mode. you're -- you take and vehicle off operate normally. we don't know yet. we're asking those questions.

answer will depend on which of diesel engines we're talking about. we believe that the newer generation, the generation so called generation three engines fix thanuch easier to the older versions. >> thank you. >> thanks just to continue. i want the newer version, they have these tanks. system that you can both the filters and the tanks. vw dealers and the dealer in denver and also their feelnics told me, they like it would be a pretty easy adjustment even just in the to fix it in the 2015 and model. is that your understanding

mr. grudnler. >> i don't want to speculate that. that seems logical to us. vehicleto test the before further action can be taken >> it's the agency's position that these vehicles do need to be fixed, right? >> absolutely. >> they're noncompliant bother federal law and california state law. bye of the impressions given volkswagen is well, they're safe to drive. to drive, be safe they don't comply with the emission standards. the car between 2009 and 2014, the fix is a bigger don't haveause they the containers. harder to see without major structural changes how they can into compliance.

is that your understanding? >> correct. they will require a more engineering.njurin requirewill installation of a system or different knocks, filters or both. that's going to be quite elaborate. i'm not a mechanic and i don't pretend to be one. i went over and looked at it, it looked like a very naughty problem to me. >> what california and epa have directed volkswagen to do is to onsent more than one option how to address these excess emissions. at these options carefully. >> right. has vw -- have you given vw any of deadline for coming up with that fix? you when indicated to

they might be able to come up with? this is something that concern the panel in the earlier conversation today. assure you we have a very strong sense of urgency. we are pressing the volkswagen thoseat plan and for solutions. we're meeting with them on a daily basis. we hope to get a proposal very soon. want to make sure it's effective. rushing.ome risk in we expect to see something as early as next week. the company told you that they believe they can fix the affected vehicles without affecting fuel economy engine performance or both? >> they have not said so. >> okay. one lastnt to say thing. which is often times we have the epa inherent sometimes it's not the most pleasurable experience testifying. this case, the director

counsel onrnational clean transportation, which was the organization that commissioned the west virginia study, said quote, this is a powerful affirmation of u.s., federal and vehicle emission regulations and other agencies. clear protocols and requirements life vehicles. the authority to find enforced recalls. best practices that regulations worldwide incorporate. end quote. thank you an your agencies for your efforts here. ask you, are you going forward?ng >> yes. we already have. done?t have you >> we've learned from this episode, for sure. wish we had found it sooner. thison as we learned of

data, -- how are you adjusting the testing going forward. >> bottom line, we are going to be unpredictable. robust required for a compliance and oversight program vehiclesesting of new in the lab. testing what we call end use lab, on roadhe measurement. >> thanks. i don't have much time mr. brooks. mentyou adjusting enforce efforts going so and if so, how? >> the answer is yes, although, i think the prosecution and the investigation of this matter normaloceed along our path. i think what we will see is -- more be getting a lot phone calls from people. in that way it will change. to.l have more to respond >> thank you. mr. chairman much

mr. chairman. >> you're next. >> thank you very much mr. chairman appreciate you all being here. questions being asked. there were a number of us, i'm the people who owns one of the diesel volkswagen. i have some questions in that regard. it's important that you change your testing methods. it might be helpful in doing your job if we pass legislation that would allow a portion of the fine fraud case to go to the university that discovered it? wvu discovered the problem. you all didn't. the epa can and should do everything. this might be some assistance just like we do with certain actors in other criminal

committing who are fraud, we take some of their ill-gained goods. we take it away from them and the government gives it back to some of the folks who helped it.over you think that might be a helpful piece of legislation for at.o take a look either one of you. >> i don't think i can comment on what legislative changes might be necessary. the understand that in criminal context, these kinds of remedies have been imposed before. if you haveion is, that power now, -- >> can you speak closer. >> if you currently have that that. let me know if you don't have that power, whenever you come up with the fine that's appropriate for volkswagen, it would seem to me, i don't know that you have that authority now, to give wvu, west virginia university that uncovered this problem, part of

help them continue their research. that's what we do with prosecutors. we do that with law enforcement agencies who uncover crime. cases.hat in security there are different ways that it's done. do you think that will be a for peopleo be level of the united states of america? >> i can take that back and we can respond in writing. >> sounds like a good idea to me. is interesting that wvu found not.d you all did i understand that you can't do everything. let's go to the other side of this. i will -- whatever you all come up with and whatever volkswagen with,ly get my car fixed or if they do a buy back have to debate whether it's better to fix it or it back to the company. point,t curious, at some am i going to be subject or

arer consumers in my shoes they going to be subject to the epa forom driving a vehicle that doesn't that supposedards to be in place when they bought the vehicle? >> that question depends on than the particular other of volkswagen one of these vehicles lives. if you live in an area that does emissions test that the state conducts these states requireme that in order to reregister the arecle, if it's subject to and call to show that the fix has been made. states do snot -- not have that requirement. living on where you're >> for some people who may not be paying attention to whatever might get or for whatever reason aren't following the news. bunch of those folks out there who don't follow

day-to-day news. with some kindup of penalty from their state. would you anticipate that the the direction of the national program if enough of the cars did not get bought a certainxed after number of months? >> we certainly will be consumers to -- understand. not anticipate that. but it is a possibility. >> i don't think that's a possibility. tell you one of my concerns is. it doesn't have anything to do with you all. a rhetorical question. had epa official in and we were talking about the and the cap and trade scheme which they didn't call cap and trade, they kept resisting that. talks about putting limit on

emissions and making trades. cap and trade. what was interesting about it, quotes from lisa jackson in 2011, gina mccarthy and gina mccarthy 2013 2014. they would never consider it. it wouldn't allowed the law to a cap and trade scheme. i'm concerned, not for me, i do what i need to do to make my car right. folks out be a lot of there who maybe caught. i want to make sure that the epa isn't doubling down on their damages. i appreciate you listening to that. answer, aisle give you a chance to answer. i'm assuree you that of a cleaner act which would allow prosecution for the things about talking

>> that's exactly what lisa jackson told us two or three years ago. we'll move on. last but not least happenll say it won't gen1 cars. will take up some of the space in trunk area of the vehicle. >> that would depend on the remedy would be. as i said earlier, we're going break here to look at what impact this is going to consumersners and that will be central to how we review the options that comes forward to. we don't know that yet. much.ppreciate it very thank you for being here. back.d >> thank you. mr. grundler. concerns i raised with mr. horn earlier was mightn about whether we

devices with similar problems with other cars. the tools you need to ensure there are no other cheaters out there? we do. >> i'm also concerned about, mr. brooks,s from comments mr. ford made. suggesting there was no corporate responsibility. ag who goesa or the after the individual corporate or otherwise who might be responsible for this. point envision bringing charges like criminal the corporation itself for this intentional deceit? question.ou for the toan't speculate now as exactly what all the enforcement

actions will take. already taken the initial enforcement action. we are working with the department of justice on these matters. >> i guess what i'm asking, i won't keep repeating, one more time. we keep talking about the fines because of what happened. is this rise to individual responsibility for those responsible? asthere such a thing criminal action against a corporation? speculating, are those possibilities? >> let me be careful in answering that. the concern that has been expressed here by exactly our concern -- who, what, when, where, how and how. i'm concern that the getstigations on going will into exactly that. i don't think it will be unfair for me to say much more about

what the end result might be. a possibility? >> certainly there are possibilities. >> okay. i was glad in mr. ford actually said that he understood the impact of these emissions and they could have health and safety impacts. he did say that. beyond in that? he's admitting this took place and there could be some health and safety impacts because of the increased emissions. does the epa hold volkswagen environmen for the environmental effects. consider -- is it possible that they will be held impact one for the essentially dirty air? not just fix the cars but there damages or some kind of payment that would have to be made.

the air was made dirty and people health and safety were impacted? yes.e answer to that is while it may go by different names, we tend to talk about it mitigation. the concept there is exactly what you articulated. opportunities, the ways in which the damage the has been done to environment and which has health, can beic addressed. can't go back in time. many of our settlements look the question.k how is it we can make air the lawbetter than what minimally requires. additional reduction in pollution is what we refer to as mitigation. we have consent decrees that go about doing that in many ways.ent

>> for example, you could impose penalties that might be used to mitigate air pollution in other ways. not by vw but that the epa would to mitigate air pollution in some other way? me an example >> lot of the power plant case, projects for example where the company has had to go a third party to implement a wood stove change out program. so that cleaner burning stoves more efficient wood stoves are dirtier stoves. that has a direct impact on air becauseand communities there are lots of communities very heavilyt rely on wood burning devices >> thank you very much. mr. chairman. >> recognize dr. burgess for five minutes.

>> thank you mr. chairman. i apologize for being out the the hearing. of i'm going to ask a couple of questions. been asked before, please bare with me and try to as consistent. first off, what is the budget the epa currently? the budget for the entire epa. i can give you the budget for my organization. that.ll take a it's roughly $100 million year and 340 full time people in my organization >> budget for the epa, i'm think it isemory, i close to $15 billion. resources available. it has funding available. >> i do want to correct that. think epa's budget is around $7 billion and about 15,000 roughly.

>> nevertheless, west virginia thisrsity had a budget for 50, 60h project around or $70,000. >> i'm not going to blame our the fact that we missed this cheating. i do think we do a very good job of setting priorities at epa. once we've learned of this emissions, we focused on it. it.idn't ignore we've also immediately changed how we're doing our testing unpredictable.re >> well, with all due respect. at the situation. i think the american people yout to ask that we fire virginiawestern university to do our work. costre much more

effective. let me ask you this. i sat on another subcommittee. theave jurisdiction over national highway transportation administration. this is not a safety issue as are driven. there are emissions issues. is that correct correct. >> does epa do its own kind of recall that is separate and apart? >> we do. recalls.govis be www. that is the website that consumers can go to find out recall orn about the the possible recall on their vehicle? >> we have not ordered a recall yet. when we do, we'll provide that information for sure. >> that information will be on website? >> yes. >> i went to the website, they for me.it off you can get information about pesticides, pesticide websites,

epa emission recalls where i this would fall. is that correct? link, youlick on that get a page not found. under way.rovements can you let consumers know when they are likely to be able to get that information off your website? ordered awe've not recall. so there's no recall information. we have information on our that talks about our notice in violation and what consumers need to know today. which is they can drive these cars. cars are safe to drive. they will not be held any repairs.or >> let me ask you this. mr. pallone was asking you things about payment to damages and because of the issue that air was dirtier and health impacted. have been volkswagen of america is going

finese some significant and penalties by the environmental protection agency. are they not that's very likely. theave you heard that to ceo of volkswagen, don't be dismissive. from the fact that happened. i will a lot of people ask me a private company done that and turned the river held --they will be there will be fines and mitigation costs. the samehold itself to

standard to which it holds private corporations? not, why not >> ask you me to testify about the gold king mine situation? in general. epa causes a problem, or should the sameeld to standard. i'm not asking you to testify. i think we should have a hearing a separate issue. answer the question. held to the same standards to which you will hold a private corporation? i'm not can say, familiar with the details, i have seen and read that the has taken full responsibility for that situation. acting accordingly. gentlemen from virginia and texas both touting my neighboring state, western university. it's nice to see them get that accolades for doing such good work. >> gentlemen on

september 18th, epa issued a violation against volkswagen. to 2015.rs from 2009 according to epa, the software by volkswagen is a defeat advice. i understand that vw admitted in to installing defeat devices on their vehicle. is that correct? mid olate describe in -- we were officiallyion w notified on september 3rd. what did vw tell epa that they have done to the emissions? >> we were informed that the has a dual calibration strategy. the vehicle to

operate one way. when it was tested by the epa waycompletely different when the vehicle was on the road with anw provided epa that shows how the device worked? >> that is my understanding. check that for you. >> i understand the affected vehicle falls in generation year.on the model and at this point, does epa have a how theerstanding of fee devices work do n not. else do you need and has vw been helpful? need to provide to the epa to give you information that you need?

>> the information we're focused on now like laser is what are to addressto do these excess emissions and take the software off these vehicles comply. we don't need to know they cheatedhow with each line of code. the most important thing going forward is that those defeat devices are removed. are addressed in a way that will work with consumers. someu said you've learned lessons here. expertiseave the right now or do you hire consultants? >> we do. we don't need unpack lines ever code to find these defeat advices. bottom line is testing them in weredictable ways so activate these devices. that's the bottom line you taking broader actions now that you've learned software codehow used. deceptive

>> yes we do. >> are you going to do that? are. >> can you explain that? >> we have a number of different do.s of testing we we test every new model of vehicle. we require the manufacturers to test every new model and submit that data to us. we audit certain percentage of testing them our laboratory. we also audit by measuring real emissions using these mobile devices. going to be a combination testing,aboratory activity testing. we know how to download this software. to vw, does epa know yet can successfully fix the cars here in the u.s.?

yet. don't know that >> vw has a number of internal investigations. have volkswagen committed to sharing the results of those investigation with the epa? .> they have not let me defer to my colleague here. have you asked them for that information? agree at thisnot time. >> have you asked them whether thatwill claire information with the epa? >> we have outstanding official document request. we learned this morning about one particular investigation and that is certainly -- >> will you let the committee know if vw does not provide the results of their internal investigation. thanks.

>> we have a vote coming up. >> i just wanted to make one submit this with consent. solution is to give epa more solution. he said you don't want to rely on the happenstance and the investigation. members to ask mib questions. do we have?ks >> on september 25th of 2015, announced they will be conducting an additional testing to 58.

evaluate. >> we teamed up with california and environment canada. have the capabilities. >> how many vehicle have you tested? thee are still testing first batch of vehicles >> what are you seeing so far? >> i have not seen any data yet -- >> we've been careful not to with the automaker. we want to be unpredictable. a combination of both these five cycles. cycle. call off >> does this include all light vehicles or just diesel technology? diesels.starting with >> would you be willing to

the committee informed. >> yes. >> do you think that this is an isolated incident. with dieselconcerns technology in general? >> i don't have concerns with diesel technology in general. we're going to be taking a close look. mr. chairman.k >> we only have six minutes to get to the floor to make job is it consumers whole? consumer the protection agency. there are other federal agencies and state agencies that have responsibility. as i testified earlier, the consumer will be central to how

we are reviewing the options to emissions. >> the excess emissions now are the epa standard. we just heard testimony from votes, i have a letter sent to owners that says you can still drive them. under what authority does the these cars that are emitting 10 to 40 times the allowed amount, to continue to the road? >> the responsibility and the for those competentes -- that why we're conducting this investigation and learn lag remedy is and then pursuing mitigation. some states --t to bring their car then the consumer could be

emissions. for the our devices that these s will defeat -- >> in the meantime, half a million cars running around that emissions.g greater what, then, does the epa do? be for a year.ld maybe more than a year before any real fix >> i don't know how throng will take to get the real fix. enforcementour enforc action will be to make the economy whole. >> yw >> so you know already that there are half a million cars that consumers are told they can legally drive that are meaning more than your

roles say. so what is happening now to hold them accountable for that? you don't have to trust them, you know that they are already over the line. >> the owners of these vehicles are innocent in this matter. >> right. >> and we are working intently with california and the company to identify how to make these vehicles compliant. and once we are confident that we have the right remedy we will order those recalls, and the companies will have the responsibility to fix this vehicles. >> in the meantime will they be penalized for having these noncompliant cars? >> the consumers? >> no, the company. >> no. that will be the result of our ongoing investigation.investigation. that is what will be determined by the ongoing investigation. >> what part of this don't you know already? what part don't you know already? you know that all those cars are exceeding your roles.

i don't get it. >> well, there are many things we don't know. we don't know why, what, where, who was responsible. >> you know the fact of it though. >> the fact is that volkswagen designed and installed illegal software. >> and the consequence you know, that they are admitting all these extra emissions. .. yet.lation we know they can be anywhere times. to 40 i've done the math to find out tons are. excess back.ield >> ms. clark. >> thank you mr. chairman. pick up on the floor colleague withmy respect to the emissions testing. new york state is one of those states that requires emissions testing. typically f you're a --

typically, you can be fined. mostse of this device, likely those vehicles would not be detected. >> correct. >> however, that doesn't change the fact that the normal these vehicles would not be permitted on the road. your agency so to have them say that the cause it's not their fault you can continue to drive, doesn't it sort of undermine the state requirement? for certain emission levels to be contained, for you you to then undermine that with the ability, notwithstanding the fact that most people, when their vehicle has an emission problem don't recognize it, and

don't typically think it's their fault either. however we have to remedy it before we take our vehicles on the road, otherwise we are fine. we need stickers and those stickers indicate whether our vehicles are in compliance. if we have these vehicles running around in certain jurisdictions that would fail that under normal circumstances how do you reconcile that? >> the fines are a matter of state law. the way to reconcile that is to identify an effective remedy, once that remedy is fix those vehicles will pass those state inspections and those owners will not be subjected to further.

>> the challenges it has been happening with vehicles since 2009. we have no idea when this remedy is going to be cooked up. we don't know if this remedy is going to be hard and fast, something we can rely on. we are hoping, but there's going to be testing, there's going to be concerned going forward because of the deception of how all of this occurred. were talking about software here, right? >> right. >> how do we reconcile that, in addition to that are we able to determine those states that do require, we know california for instance probably other states with admission test it didn't, how many vehicles are resident within the states and what is the effect or immediate impact to the environment to the people that reside in that state. >> that is all going to be determined as a result of our investigation. it is knowable where these vehicles reside. we do do not know yet how it is going to be still fixed.

we want to have the confidence that it will be affected. that will require some time. >> do you anticipate that you'll be hearing from the states attorney general and other concerned entities within the states, probably their own environmental protection agency at the state level to try to get a handle around us. there are certain areas where this type of emission exacerbates, do we see a sense of urgency for dealing with this? >> we have our ready heard from state attorney generals and state and ventral mental, i have met with all of the states environmental directors this week. they are concerned. they want to help. they are very anxious, as are we

, to identify how these tons of excess air pollution will be mitigated. that will all go into part of how we are going to resolve this once and for all. >> in closing, when you have been able to complete urine analysis when you can get to this committee a breakdown by state, that would be very helpful. we may have seen spikes in public health issues that have been exacerbated in some form or fashion where these cars reside. we like to attribute that to some sort of fashion to maybe the changes that occurred in the atmosphere as a result of that a cluster of ownership. , in a particular jurisdiction. >> i understand, we'll do whatever we can to serve the committee's work here. >> i yelled back. >> i would just like to add, if you gather information in regards to state rules, anti- tampering rules, fines, whether

in their criminal penalties, we would appreciate getting that information to this committee. i want to ask unanimous consent of the doctrine to be introduced into the record and authorized to make any appropriate rejections. so i asked that it is introduced. i want want to thank the witness were coming today. we appreciate your time and attention in this difficult matter. it is important to us, thank you for the testimony and for the members of their derivative action. the committee has ten days to submit any additional information to the record. with that meeting is adjourned. >> tonight on c-span two, today's meeting on the house budget committee. considering the 2016 federal budget. followed by the debate from the european parliament over volkswagen's rule and