c-span2 book tv. >> political science professor martha kumar is on "afterwards", looks at transition, transfer of office between president's bush and obama. >> professor kumar welcome to "after words". transition of george w. bush and barack obama and how they managed a transition of power. certainly this transition period is an important period not real well known by the broad public and you pulled back the curtain on the interworkings of this particular transition and referred to it as a model and a template and i was struck by a

number of revelations including the level of cooperation and trust. let's start with a hollywood thriller. let's go straight to inagural which was almost postponed with terrorist threat and just how was that threat and how did the bush and obama teams deal with it? >> thank you very much for being here and talking with me about the book. when we look at the -- the front of the cover of the book here and you see bush and obama, both of them actually looking pretty serious and grim. >> they are. >> they had walked out the blue room where they had traditional coffee where the president elect and first -- first lady to be come in to be hosted by the sitting president and the vice president from both sides too.

and so while they were there discussing whatever the day's activity ahead, they were talking about in the situation room, there was a meeting about a threat on the inauguration that had come over the weekend. there was a threat of a terrorist attack on the inauguration. probably not close to the podium itself, but farther back and the assumption that it was possibly people killed. so it was something of great concern. >> host: very serious. >> guest: to the community. so what they did was bring everyone together who was involved in security so you had the cabinet secretary outgoing, homeland security and state and

defense and -- and then national security adviser and the incoming terrorism adviser for president obama and they discussed the threat and what kinds of things should -- should be done and one person who was in the meeting who told me about it said that hillary clinton asked -- >> host: familiar. >> guest: yeah, with politics and presidential image that she had the best question which was is the president going to be pulled off the podium, i don't think so. the optics of that would have been terrible to show what they fragile system that we had that we couldn't inagurate our

president so the obama people talked to him, but they had found out about it over the weekend and in one of the -- an article that i read david axelrod talked about it on saturday and that they had decided not to do a final run-through of inagura address. one of the things that made that work was that both sides were comfortable with one another. they had been dealing with one another for months at a lower level where you had transition people dealing with white house staff on a variety of issues and then president obama -- president elect named his people early enough that they could work together with the people

who were -- who were sitting in the offices before they left, so they could get information about how things worked, and that was a really -- i think an excellent part of the transition. you know, you can give people paper, give them memoranda but sitting with them is a different thing. after general jones who was was selected as national security adviser and he appointed the people who were going to be heading the directrates. they worked there for several weeks and the advantage that has is you can talk about what's in the paper and then you can say

that one person was telling me that -- he was telling me that the memoranda they read, there were not a lot of mistakes in the memoranda because nobody was going to put on paper what they think, well, you think you might want to organize geographically but we try and that was particularly important to be able to have that time that obama pointed people early enough that they could do that, but also important was the work that steve did as the national security adviser for bush. he started in the fall of 2007 prepare memoranda on countries and issues that were important for the -- for any incoming

administration, and so they had a template of the information that they were going to gather, information about what the state of the relationship was or the issues were when they came in, what they did, what happened as a result of what they did and then the situation as it currently was, and so they could take those memorandu which had been passed through and also president bush, president bush read all of them, and so they could take those and then ask questions about them. >> right. >> those were the ones that didn't have a lot of things that had been done wrong, but they were willing to be very open in their discussions. >> host: well, that's a very depthful analysis, a situation that thank goodness turned out

-- exactly. i think you really go to a couple of central points there, one is this issue of trust, which we'll get to a bit later and the relationships that was absolutely key, but let me go in 9/11. it seems to me in reading your book, martha, that you concluded that the 9/11 tragedy really fundamentally changed transitions or some of the aspects of it in terms of measuring, that encouraged more of this interaction that we speak of. is that fair? >> guest: yes, absolutely that's so, i think that's true personally and institutionally, personally president bush talked to josh bolton and chief of staff in december of 2007 and talked to him about having the best transition they could. he said but two wars, it's very important to do that.

congress also had -- had acted in ways that demonstrated that a transition was a different time period. the 9/11 commission had recommended that people be appointmented earlier and that would require security clear answers -- clearances done early, made a provision for names to be sat in for security clearances after the conventions so that once the transition begin, that they would have people cleared, and -- and that became important because the obama people took advantage of that and they put in a couple hundred names, 150 to 250 names. >> host: that's substantial. >> guest: right, so people could start. that is critical because you don't want to have fragile

periods like that extended. you want to make sure that things work fast and you have peoples in place and when there's a change in party transition -- >> host: you have a period, but it wasn't just national security as fundamental and sacred, it was all the financial crisis was a major consideration in the transition that you spent some time writing about and appropriately so because the meltdown had occurred, the financial meltdown had occurred just shortly before the election. tell us a little bit about that, because that was a critical period as well. >> guest: it was, when you are planning for a transition -- you're planning it based on the

promises that you've made during the campaign which is -- you know, goes on a couple of years. and so all of a sudden to have something come up which was so large which came up in september -- >> host: right. >> guest: in the period after the election was a period in which the bush people really didn't have any political muscle left, and so that meant that the president elect had to be involved and try to encourage congress to take whatever -- whatever measures they wanted like extending tarp. >> very con trf -- controversial and difficult. >> guest: with the auto bailout

-- [laughter] >> guest: was an important aspect of dealing with the financial situation because the automobile industry had so many contractors, sub contractors -- >> host: right. midwest and so forth. critical. >> guest: impact millions of people, so the bush people were interested in making sure that -- that that industry be stabilized as quickly as possible and so they had a meeting with the obama people after thanksgiving, the sunday after thanksgiving where they talked about an auto bailout and they -- josh bolton said that they would be willing to appoint a person that the obama people -- yes, wanted, and at the time which was --

>> obviously before the inauguration. the obama people decided -- >> host: they pulled back a little bit. so, marta, we heard the expression one president at one time, this kind of altered that a bit, didn't it? >> guest: it does, here the president elect all of a sudden has to make a very swift change from campaigning to governing, have to figure out is he going to take that offer of the bailout and hi took the same route that president roosevelt had when hoover tried to have him involved. he didn't in a way what happens is you buy into somebody else's problem because they wanted to start fresh. >> host: so to close in terms of

national security and the financial challenges, your conclusion was that during the transition because of this level of cooperation and familiarity, your conclusion is that the transition helped move through that period in a much more positive way than otherwise might have been the case? >> guest: absolutely. >> host: i concur. >> guest: that's true in so many ways,. q. it's in the appointment's process, some of the general procedures of a transition, yes. >> host: good. well, let's move to president bush. i think if i could kind of capulice your themes, tell us a little bit how and why president bush really focused so much on this transition as early as

december 2007? >> guest: i think in one way it was something that was comfortable for him because when he became president he had clay johnson who was working as his chief at staff -- >> host: in austin. >> guest: in austin, in june of '99 he had him thinking separately about transition and he told me he wanted to talk to the bakers and get some understanding about how transitions worked and then also think about the recruitment process for personnel. so planning ahead was something that was natural to him. >> host: right. an ponder. >> guest: transition, but of course, he was very affected by the wars. >> host: yes. >> guest: and the need to not just for president obama but for the presidency itself, the

institution of the presidency, which you're -- which you have in your hands, you want to make sure that that institution remains strong and so i think that's one of the reasons that he started early and then he told his chief of staff josh bolton that he wanted him to handle it and whenever he needed to he could come to him, he had to get approval or thinking on something, and so bolton did that, but he also was involved in the financial crisis but juggling, did a lot of the work. say on a daily basis, executive director for the obama transition.

christopher -- >> host: right. >> guest: legislative affairs assistant for senator obama and they had been in law school together. >> host: had a relationship. >> guest: had the full confidence of obama. so dealt with any issues on a daily basis after the election about people going into departments and gathering information, if there any issues that came up, the two of them were able to dispose of them within a day and there were a few of them. >> host: i call a meeting that a chief of staff bolton and i know well and favorably that he assembled a number of former chiefs of staff and the meeting was organized, the breakfast was organized in the honor of and really to give counsel to ron emmanuel -- >> guest: right.

>> host: i had the opportunity to be privy to conversations and a couple of others in the bush white house reflecting exactly what you're saying. but i recall that breakfast vividly, cheney made the great statement, keep an eye on your vice president, it was a very generous offer on the part of -- >> guest: yeah. i thought on that remark of vice president cheney that he was referring more -- not just to himself. he was referring to his experience in the -- >> host: you make a very good point. you make a very good point. i don't think that's how it was taken but i think you're interpretation and reflection is a good one. [laughter] >> host: went to give serious advice as we all try to.

it's interesting that when president bush began the process early in 2007 he did not know who the next president of the united states was going to be. so he really started with chief of staff bolton, clay johnson, have great regard and respect for, now the reaction was perhaps different than some may have thought between the obama administration and the mccain campaign and senator mccain key people, tell us about that. >> guest: it would be -- but also with with obama there's going to be a change of party transition. and so in a change-of-party transition you want to change very quickly and executive orders lined up memorandum going

to change guidelines. >> host: hit the ground running, so to speak. >> guest: demonstrate that there's a new sheriff in town and we are doing business differently. with mccain, it was the same party transition, so you're not going to be as anxious about changing personnel quickly and in the same too for legislative initiatives. you would give that some time, one of the things too in their mind is certainly in putting in names which he did not for security clearances, the mccain did not, the obama put 150-250 names. it was a lot of different, but mccain had people on his armed services that were appointees of

his. he felt that he had the bones of a staff to come in, and a same-party transition has a helpfulness and friendliness to it most often that's going to make it a lot easier for a president, so for example, when vice president bush followed ronald regan, when there were vacancies coming up at the end of the administration, because a lot of cabinet people leave, two mrnt positions were treasury and attorney general and secretary, the three of them left until you had -- you had vacancies there.

>> host: right. >> guest: of george h. bush. he kept all of them and two of them went for the administration. >> host: you're right that positive transition, a seemless transition benefits a sitting president as well as the incoming president. you obviously did your homework, talked to a lot of people within the white house, so was that part of president president bush's motivation and thinking? >> guest: it certainly could have been. it's hard to get the motivation of people. i think republicans tend to

focus on management and bush in particular had focused on management -- and managing a transition, you know, early when he came in and i think it was natural for him to do it going out particularly with -- with the war. but also in the last part of your administration, you don't have a lot of persuasion ability to persuade congress to do something that you might want them to do. you're not spending a lot of time there. >> host: good point. >> guest: you spend a lot of time on the road traveling, and i think it's natural to be thinking about a wrap-up of your administration. i think it's very useful to establish a narrative of what your administration accomplished, how it all fit together particularly with the

president's vision, because some of the -- people will look at a presidency in parts and individual actions. >> host: as oppose to a whole. >> guest: this gives you an opportunity to pull it together. that was something that reagan did that i think worked to his benefit and eisenhower did it. i studied white house communications and i've gone -- >> host: we are going to ask you about that if we have time, go ahead. >> guest: who was the press secretary for eisenhower, i mean, he -- and his office performed the jobs of 60 people today. but anyway, one of the memos that he wrote to him to deal with the last year is he said that he should travel, he should

have a seem of a man of peace and travel around the world and i think that was -- it got interrupted. yeah, and the troubles that resulted with the soviet union after that. but it was -- have a theme for your presidency and for eisenhower it also meant having for your whole life because he had been a man of war and presidency becomes the man of peace. i think it's useful for everybody including a president and for his legacy to have a wrap-up, i think the kind of memos that steve did were important too for -- all of this goes to a presidential library

and gives people a sense of what you were thinking. i think it's a positive way to end your presidency because you can get around again to the notion of the presidency as an institution and how did -- how did you handle it. >> host: well you make some points in terms of the transition after 9/11, that changed the perspective and the fact that president bush was in somewhat unique position, two-term president, he knew there was going to be a transition and vice president was not seeking the office for nominee, those are very different dynamics. but you also -- let's take a step back a bit. in history you mentioned president eisenhower and president truman was somewhat the father of this transition. he focused on the need for a good transition, but in terms of the fundamentals of the bush and

obama teams of trust, i think relations must have been a little less frussing between truman and incoming president eisenhower. >> guest: presidents are affected by things that happen to them before. >> host: human beings. >> guest: yeah, they then want to deal with that situation. he gave january 20th and roosevelt died on april 12th, during that time period, he did not learn about a lot that was going on in government in particular -- and it was wartime, in particular the development of the atomic bomb, and he felt very scared by that and didn't want that to happen to his successor. so when he made his decision and

announced it at the dinner in '52 that he was not going to run again, he could have run but he decided not to run and he talked to roger jones, who was the head of bureau of budget, and he talked to him about his -- about preparing for a transition and how he wanted him pulling together budget information and making -- and program information. that -- that unit was -- which is now the office of management budget was the heart of -- of a government operation that looked all over government and had the kind of information that a president would want to pull together for a successor. ..

>> guest: , so, truman said in his letter: i'll have the central intelligence agency give you a complete briefing on the foreign situation. and then after that, they were going to have some more briefings. he also said that he would indicate to eisenhower that the

cia would provide him with briefing from the world situation on a weekly basis, which eisenhower did take him up on. then he said in his letter: well will have lunch with the cabinet, and after that if you like i'll have my entire staff report to you on the situation in the white house. and in that way you'll be entirely -- >> host: very gracious offer? -- on what take place, yes. so eisenhower wrote him back turning him down, he said in hi current position as standard bearer of the republican party, and for others who want to make change, it is my duty to remain free to analyze publicly the policies and acts of the present administration whenever it appears to me to be proper in and the country's interest. i believe our communication should be only those which are known to all american people.

constance subsequently it would be unwise and result in confusion in the public's mind if i were attend to meeting at the white house could which you have invited me. well, truman was not very happy, and sometimes what he did was he hand-wrote letter. >> host: truman's personality showing up. >> guest: what he could do with a hand-written letter, he would just put it in the mail box when he was doing his -- >> host: different communication than today. >> guest: so not through the chiefs of staff. >> host: right, i was picking up on your point for sure. go ahead. so, he writes -- >> guest: so he says: i'm extremely sorry you allowed a bunch of screwballs to come between us. you have made a bad mistake and i'm hoping it won't injure this great republic. so, -- >> host: vintage harry truman response should have moved forward here.

but eisenhower then -- this is a fundamental point -- eisenhower was skeptical, reluctant to engage with a democratic president, even in a transition of the presidency, other than the cia work, and what is one of the hallmarks here you underscore about this bag model,ol thaw had a sitting two-term republican president transitioning with a democratic president, who had been critical of the bush administration, and yet still you had a level of trust established between both the presidents and equally important, their staffs. >> guest: right. one of general -- a deputy chief of staff and he talked about how he thought it really was an excellent statement about the transition that they were able -- they got beat up for,

for a couple of years, by the democrats and -- >> host: the campaign, yes. >> guest: -- but they were able -- >> host: -- i think this is so striking and so important and one of the many virtues of the timing of the book, we have such a partisan atmosphere in washington, and to the hope here -- it was an optimistic book in that sense -- is that you can transcend that when you really look at the good of the country and what i essential for the protection of the presidency. that's really part of your theme and major message. now, couple of other points here. i want to be sure we get to. and personalities. john podesta, who assumed the leadership of the transition campaign or group for president-elect obama if know john well help worked with me and for me in the white house, was later chief of staff to president clinton so he had seen

those inner workings, understood it. you characterize john's style as corporate and also you emphasize having the separate track of the transition. >> guest: yes. his operation was different in some earlier operations. what he needed to do as setting things up was make sure they were going to have people that could go into the departments and agencies to review programs, budgets, personnel. >> host: relatively detailed, then. >> guest: right. and so you have to be able to pick people who have been the before so they know what to look for. >> host: good point. >> guest: but he setting thises up in a way, using a template, that all of the review teams were to use. they had -- usually large review

teams are a problem because people may want to get their own information and they want to make -- so, he was able to have a disciplined operation, and i think it was because he did work from templates. he thought through very carefully at the beginning what kind of information they wanted, and i asked him about that process, and how he maintained the discipline, and he went back to being staff secretary. >> host: tradition. >> guest: staff secretary under you when you were chief of staff. he said he learned there the importance of detail, and so he was able, when you put together the agency review team, the policy teams, and also the leadership part, there were 679 people, and --

>> host: that a big group. >> guest: it was a disciplined operation, and you really didn't hear any problem arising from it. >> host: well, john is -- it's fair to say and most people would agree, regardless of their political persuasion, experienced, disciplined political operative and leader, and he -- we saw that in this instance, and now we're seeing it campaign manager for secretary clinton. >> guest: taking on a lot of tasks. >> host: usually handles them with dispatch and i think josh bolton is a consummate professional and i can see where they would actually link together easily and develop amoute to all respect. you also talk about unsung heros. this is an important part. of people in the government and that cooperated that are so essential. tell us about that. that gets overlooked. i. >> guest: there's a lot that has to be done within the government

itself way before the transition begins. >> host: for sure. >> guest: for example, the general services administration is important in identifying the office space that is going to be used. the office space has already been identified for the coming transition. and then they have to talk with representatives of both sides about how they're going to put their office together, whether they want to put it together. then they have to talk to them about computers, the security, and how they're planning on doing that, and then you have the office of government ethics deals with the financial disclosure requirements that came from -- earlier.

>> host: we built on them put you're right. we built on them. you're correct. >> guest: the disclosure, they need to talk to the candidates' representatives about what kind of disclosure it is because there are lot of people say, no, they have to reveal all of their stocks and get rid of many of them. they're not going to wind up in a position in government. need to know before hand the transition teams do. and then you have the people, the career staff, who are trying to prepare for a change, and so they are following what is going on in a campaign. sometimes one of the things that happens is that they might follow the campaign pronouncements of the candidate and what programs he wants or she wants, and then figure out how much is that going to cost?

so that they can have that information ready for them and that's something that various omb operations and i think roger jones did that. truman wanted roger jones doing that. for the '52 election. and then you have people, like clay johnson. clay johnson was a close friend of president bush, and had a sense of management. he and bush had gone to high school together. they had met in high school at andover, and then they waned to -- both went to yale, were roommates, and then both took business -- >> host: clay was chief of staff to governor bush. >> guest: he could come in and do personnel for him. he was not a mitt cal person. he was vie voted to make sure the management aspect worked for bush. >> host: one person had the authority and responsibility. that was one of the key points. >> guest: yes.

and so in going out, josh bolton, who dealt with all of the white house operations, but for departments and agencies, for some of that work that clay johnson worked on through the president's management council, as he was -- as the deputy of the office of management and budget, which he was at the end of the administration. he chaired that committee, which is made up of all of the departments and the most important agencies. so he had them come together in the spring and talk about the transition, what information did they think a new administration would need? and so they worked through that, and then in summer -- i think it wase july, july 18th -- he sent out a memorandum to the departments and agencies, directing exactly what they were

to gather, information they were to gather. it and it shows the importance of involving all parts of the government and of starting early. >> host: execution of really -- execution and as you say, a broad participation. >> right so that could develop a concept sunday what was need -- cop consensus what was needed. like for a department, what kinds of conferences will the secretary be involved in? what sort of travel has been set up? what legislation is there that affects the department? and obviously budgets. >> host: those are just -- i'm just so -- i commend you for really highlighting and really presenting that information in a clear manner, because it's a little known fact, easy to feel some of that confidence that not there, yet it does reside in the career people but has to be marshaled and directed and led.

that's write felt like happened. >> guest: it does. but there is a willingness. i think people during a campaign assume that this it's change of party, that the government is their enemy, and it's anything but they truth itch think once they get in, then they find omb, and find how important those people are, and then they find that they can go to the national archives, go to individual presidential libraries, and find out if a particular issue has been dealt with before. >> host: martha, that leads to another important point. you mentioned in such a great manner about president truman hand-writing a note and dropping it in the mail. also i think the technology, the online, all the information that now is available in transitions, that 10-15, 20 years ago was not. speak about that. that big change. >> guest: it is, because the departments have web sites that are going to provide a lot of information, and each of them --

>> host: we're in a new world. >> guest: yes -- has felt they needed to provide more information and you have president obama, for example, in the campaign, talking about the importance of transparency, and then so -- but that becomes important, and judging how the departments and agencies are doing. so you have information there. you have a lot of books that are written that scholars have written, that the detailed past transitions and what people have learned in the past, but there are a lot of people, too that have gone through transition, and have prepared for them. for example, candidates who have prepared for transitions -- >> host: voices of the post, so to speak. >> guest: right. so, for example, with democrats, harrison -- >> host: a reservoir of knowledge. >> guest: he is. he worked in the carter administration, going in, on

transition, and he worked on the transition going out. particularly on the white house beat. so he became a repository of information as other democrats ran, and they had files. so, he turned over his files, which can be important, including he had worked with john kerry on the white house beat, and so those files could be important. i know one person was telling me , when they want told put together a budget for the transition they looked at what kerry had down. so that gave them ideas right there. >> host: a different perspective. >> guest: there are also groups like the partnership for public -- >> host: max dyer's group, very serious group. >> guest: they brought together no 2008 and 2012, they brought

together both democrats and republicans, government officials, outside people, to discuss transition and what kinds of issues there are, what sort of information there is. >> host: they're first rate. let quickly look to president-elect obama and look how he looked at it. we talked about sitting president bush. he faced with this daunting task, 8,000 appointments, 400 judicial appointments, getting a government in place, as we discussed, the transition, a key point is how do you transition from campaigning to governing? speak about that a bit. that is key to a new president. >> guest: it's very difficult. it is difficult because here you have people that have been working for you -- in his case people have been working for you -- >> host: working hard. >> guest: and the compensation is almost nothing. one person was telling me how he

had not been paid for long periods of time -- >> host: only go so far. >> guest: he had been clerking for a federal judge, and so the moment that finished, then he came into and worked at this -- you're working on organizing people, to get to the polls, and he also was working on some policy issues in his case, education. but all these people have been working for you, and they think that they should have a place. and usually the place they want to be is the white house. and so. >> host: can be a magnet. >> guest: you certainly have had experience. and so it becomes difficult to turn people down. >> host: it does. >> guest: but it is important to do because you can't just have

campaign people. campaign people are important to have in the administration and to have in the white house because they remind the president of why he is there -- >> host: the keeper of the flame so to speak. >> guest: they though the campaign and what the promises were. but you have to balance it out with people who know the president well, like you knew your president very well how much does he like information? how do decisions need to be made? and then you need substantive knowledge. you need people who are going to be -- have knowledge in foreign policy, national security, domestic policy, the economy, and particularly now because it takes so long to get appointees through. >> i'm going to get to the appointments. real challenge. >> guest: so there's a natural gaff -- gravitation to the white house and then creating czars but the white house has certain

rhythms in it from one administration to another. you have to have some people that have that knowledge, so, for example, in the bush administration, andy card had worked in -- two run administrations and knew those kinds of rhythms. then you need a knowledge of the washington community. how does the media work? how do -- what are the relationships on the hill like? for example, with news organizations, their needs are the same no matter who is president. so when you come in, as president and your press staff comes in, they have to be familiar with that. what are those routines? you can't just do what you want and have everything on your terms because if you want to get good publicity, you have to understand what the dynamics are of the media. >> host: you're speaking of

someone who has made a very careful and full study of the presidency for a number of years now, martha. you're exactly right. but you really, i think, highlighted there -- it's so men stakeholders and constituencies when a new president comes to office. you have congress, who feels like they are the most important group on the block, so to speak, because that's where your legislation is going, in many ways they are. you have the press that particularly if the president is not well known to the president, as a governor might not be, whether it be governor clinton, governor bush, senator obama had had some exposure to the national press, certainly in the campaign. you have world leaders who you have to really be very attuned and respectful to. and then you have the campaign not only staff but people who helped you get elected, who felt like they helped bring you to the dance.

they don't want to feel forgotten. so there's a lot of so many things to do in such a short period of time, including that first 100 days, and you make the point that perhaps -- we have heard the phrase, 100 days -- first 100 days -- is your window of opportunity, but perhaps not the best prepared time in the white house to take advantage of it. again, going back to your starting early on the transition. how do you think president obama did in that first 100 days? >> guest: i think he did well. you look at the magnitude of the tasks that were ahead of him, because he had to deal with the financial meltdown, and so he had the american recovery act, which he got through early. he wanted to make early statements about issues that were important to him. he did the executive orders on closing guantanamo bay, which

turned out to take a little longer than he might have anticipated. but he signed the hillly led better fair pay act, and when he was campaigning for re-election in 2012, he talked about lily ledbetter and talked about the american recovery act. they were things that were very important to his administration, and he started on health care early, too. if you -- you look at the difference in the magnitude of the things you have to do early on, -- >> host: outline them in a heart felt way but you have them better organized on your page. >> guest: just give you a sense of the crush of all -- >> host: u-y crush is a good description. >> guest: when eisenhower came in, in january, he gave one speech which is his inaugural address and in 100 days he gave

12. in obama lazy case in january, instead of one he gave 15, and instead of 12 on his first 100 days he had 158. and that is talking about a lot of different issues. and when you look at executive orders, which are going to deal with a number of issues, guantanamo bay, presidential records, and just a variety of things, as well as memoranda that are going to be dealing with ethics guidelines. in his first days in office in january, he had nine executive orders and ten memoranda, and in the 100 days, 19 executive orders and 23 memoranda. so that a lot of work. >> host: you have seen a lot of change over the years in the presidency, obviously in technology, communications so many things. i wish we had more time to talk

about that. i think it would be fascinating and your views would be so welcomed. so, you make the point, to kind of sum up, president obama reside president-elect obama stepping into white house -- a transition can be a disaggregate series of events and you recommend and suggest a narrative, a governing narrative to pull that together, which i thought was a very compelling point. >> guest: i think that's one of the problems when you're preparing in a transition. you have people doing separate things, like, for example, you had gray craig and todd stern working on executive orders. you have presidential appointments, variety of people. that portfolio passed through a lot of people. you have people working on that. so they were working with the relationships on the hill, doing

press, and all of those things are done separately, and that is somewhat of necessity, but what one needs to do is make that transition from what your campaign was, of the presidential candidate, to the president of the united states. and so what is that narrative going to be about? what is it you're going to be doing? what is your focus going to be? and i thought that one kind of unused opportunity that obama has had to do that is he gave a speech at georgetown university in april of 2009, and in it he talked about the pillars of his presidency, thinks like health care and energy, dealing with the budget, and he laid out those things which, in the end,

have been important throughout his administration, and i think people sometimes say, well, you know issue don't know exactly what he stands for, but you go back and you look at that and you see just what he was interested in, and those -- >> host: what he does do. >> guest: -- throughout, and i think in the end, it is useful to wrap all those things together. i if you didn't do it at the beginning to do it at the end. but it's important to do but in his case, he really didn't have the opportunity to create that narrative. in reagan's case, he put together a -- it's a small thing but it had a large impact -- to demonstrate that he was no longer the candidate and that he was president, he gave a formal dinner in november.

he had taken vacation, which is important to do. separate yourself out from being candidate, from being president-elect, and he came to washington. he gave a dinner, and at that dinner he had all of the congressional leadership. he had tip o'neill. in addition to having republicans. he had robert strout. people who were important in the washington community to governing, and saying to them, i'm interested in governing and i need all of your help. and i think then when he was inaugurated, he immediately said that he was signing executive orders that would freeze government hiring, that would cut travel and office decorations and those sort of things, because we knew

symbolically you want right at the beginning to say you're changing things, that it's a new kind of leadership that its coming in, and so there's some things you can do like that, that hold with a theme of what your presidency is about. >> host: professor kumar, you lead me to another fundamentally important point of your book that is so critical as we move forward and i want to move as we close to the current administration and what the candidates that are running now in this presidential season should be thinking about. but my first point and basic point is one that you just made, and that is a good transition is part of good governance. >> guest: right. >> host: that really to me the essence something i care deeply about and many others do, too, how are we going govern? how are we going to get things done, particularly in this highly partisan atmosphere, and can be accelerated with all

these communication channels. so, i think that's part of your conclusion you draw. >> guest: it is. it's the last point in the book. is the importance of management, because you have opportunities right at the beginning of your administration to make changes, and that rarely happens because people are dealing with the crush of all of the events they've been dealing with, or issues they -- >> host: the world still goes on. >> guest: that's right. it's hard to carve out time for management and also the political payoff is not that great. i know one person was telling me that with president clinton, that he was interested in management in some ways but he knew that it wasn't something that is ever going to help you. it can harm you but can't help you. and so there were thing outside

all did early on, like creating the president's management counsel, creating the -- >> national economic council. >> guest: and both of them have been retained. >> host: exactly. >> guest: and it's important. but who in the public would care about that? but it makes a difference how you govern. >> host: but it makes a difference in the output or the outcomes of jobs or whatever the issue might be. martha, in the couple minute wes have remaining, what should the candidates be being due and what show president obama and his team be doing at this point in time? it's a little early in the december timeline of president bush but we're getting close to another transition here. >> guest: i think gathering the same kinds of information. what is it that your administration did in certain types of situations so that when new people coming in face the situation, they have some history of what went before, and then planning out how you're

going to use the -- for example, use the president's management counsel. there's currently legislation that is passed the house, and is -- passed. the senate, rather, and has gone to the house -- that would create a president's management counsel and also create a group of career people that would be transition directors group. >> host: so there's continuity. >> guest: what it was basically doing is taking what bush did and putting it -- >> host: template or blueprint. >> guest: right, and putting into law. so for candidates, transition operation is something you want on the side. >> host: separate. >> guest: they need to coordinate fremont. like lay johnson dealt with karl rove and karen hughes. and say, well, i'll meet you and just tl