c-span2 in las vegas attending the freedom fest and we are interviewing the author is out here and joining us now is somebody that's been on booktv before from previous books today is michael shermer is his name and it's called the oral arc. and this book the moral arc you write that during the years i spent researching and writing this book when i told people the subject is mortal progress to describe the responses as incredulous would be an understatement most people thought i was hallucinatory. >> that's right. the problem is of course like everybody else i do watch the news and it seems like things are bad or getting worse with intact but i try to do is track the long-term historical progress over centuries and millennia watch for days and hours and weeks so in other words follow the trend line not the headline and if you think

about it for a second, take the bigger picture is even legal in every country in the world even though it's practiced in a few of the corrupt governments it is nowhere in the the western world anymore. the abolition of torture is now a legal in all western democracies and the right to vote in all democracies the spread of democracy itself is the form of mortal progress and there are now 118 democracies in the world in 1900 there were only a couple and actually the united states wasn't even a liberal democracy until 1920 when women got the vote so that's the big progress step by talking about the civil rights movement, same-sex marriage. stinnett and that you include in the moral arc? some people would say no. >> they are traditionalists that want to concern the old

hierarchical sort of class-based society whereas the trend is to grant more individuals and more autonomy and freedom and liberty over their own bodies and minds. in other words here we are a freedom fest this is what it's all about is that it's my mind and my body and i can do whatever i want and you can tell me what to do as long as i'm not hurting somebody so the two people that want to get married, who cares. it's none of your business what they do as long as no one is hurt and no one is, so that's the kind of step in the right direction. and having that as a standard for write-in individual to have the power and autonomy and choice that's what has been happening extending the moral spirit including more people over the last 250 years or so. >> is this the same as morality?

>> yes. so i'm doing two things come the first time tracking the fact that things aren't getting better and the changes happen and then i'm grounding of the based on on what's, what's the criteria? the survival is my moral starting point. that is making sure that other animals like primates don't suffer so jeremy binns in one of the great utilitarian philosophers started out by saying it's not about can they think and talk but can they suffer and we begin with the suffering of other people do they have the right to not suffer at the hands of somebody else. so not causing somebody else to suffer is a moral decision. i also make the argument by the way for free will. most scientists believe in this urban. you could have done otherwise. you could have harbored somebody

but chose not to and that choice is where the moral decision comes from. >> since the end i demand of the united states and the idea of a constitution was a bill of rights br saying everybody should be treated equally under the law. that is a couple of centuries old. the rights were indicted in late 18th century and they've taken the percentage. >> how did the nytimes and began? >> with the idea we could use reasons and logic and science to answer questions about the world. it really began in the scientific revolution which was the bigger point was the universal government by the principles that could be discovered and then applied it to change the world. so physics, biology, medicine committees all start off and

shortly after newton, everybody in europe between the uk and eventually the united states have wanted to emulate. so before there were no economics or science of economics. adam smith come everybody thinks the famous book is called the wealth of nations. that is in the title of this book. where is bald and what does it come from for the societies to increase the prosperity and everybody's societies with everybody has been doing that to be at its been jefferson's idea of structuring the government in a certain way to increase the

prosperity, the happiness, the pursuit of sovereignty and so on. that is the idea it is a scientific pursuit. >> in your box the bible is one of the most in moral works of all of literature. >> that is a pretty strong statement, yes. the plaintiff the statement is that if you turn to the bible strictly speaking by today's standards nobody today practices any of them all, death penalty for disobedient children, for mixing cotton and linen's or bees were those that were written for another time for another people and i would put the abomination of the same-sex relationships in that same

category that we really don't need to be following that and it is an archaic system. these are the right everybody gets regardless of what your religion is and who's the dominant religion. have they been a proponent on advocates of the society? >> i think so for the most part. granted it took 660,000 to abolish it ultimately got it for granting of the right only in

1920 that took many days to go over half a century. so we are slow but we get there a lot of other democracies. from the structure where most people are poor and impoverished to where virtually everybody in society is prosperous and has liberty. and the united states is one of the champions of that. the constitutional republic is a good system. >> what is the scientific explanation of free-market capitalism needs to a moral society? >> if you want to generate more prosperity for more people, that does make life better for everybody and capitalism that's the best way to increase prosperity not just for the 1% at the top that everybody at the bottom.

but more importantly psychologically with trade does is break down tribal barriers. i don't know you but if you and i swaps money for goods or services i don't care what race you are or what tribe you are. you've treated me properly by contract and i treated you properly by exchange and so on and that is one of the big benefits to trade. it's a little dislike travel. they tend to be more liberal in terms of freedom and tolerance and difference than other people that don't travel as much so encountering other people that are different from you and which you don't have to kill them or enslave them and can do something that benefits them and you and that is one of the great benefits of capitalism that almost nobody sees. most don't think that it's a good thing but it is one of the best things ever invented. >> you said you worked on this book for several years. >> a long time.

it's dealing with topics that i didn't know that much about. the history of the war and what caused the decline. it seems like all you hear hear about is people fighting. when is the last time any of the great powers went to war? proxy war like korea and vietnam they are decreasing although it's true there are still a few genocides nothing like the holocaust or the tragedies and so on. those are anomalies compared to today even though there are still a few things that happen. isis is bad but is tiny compared with somebody a century ago might have done half a century ago. so we are getting a handle even on the bad guys. so what i say about the moral progress two steps forward and one step back, there will always be enough bad things to fill the evening news that if you are a pessimist you have no trouble

finding evidence that i can take the long view again, trend by not headline you will see things are really getting better. >> you have a pin that says skeptic what is that? >> it's the name of my magazine. we are a science magazine that basically investigates all kinds of controversial claims. global warming, terrorism come is terrorism a threat of an accidental threat of? no. ..

>> >> i would throw him in there absolutely. john locke absolutely. >> tomorrow are. here is the cover and michael is the author.