that doesn't count. you have to do a little manipulation with the statistics, but the church of st. john of thedivine which has been a building since the 1880s and which is very far from finished and probably never will be finished, it's a magnificent church that always seems to be, well, originally when it was the first building, tourists looked at it and said, well, what is that ruin there? because it was taking so long to build. and in the course of building it, there have been many architectural revolutions. first, it was going to be more of a romannesque church, then it was going to be more of a gothic church. first it was going to be high church episcopalian, nothing but devoutness -- >> host: nelson bells. >> guest: actually, that's my kind of e diskohl pa church. and then it became a civil action church, and now you can have ceremonies of any kind of religion, even atheist ceremony, even elton john's birthday took

place a couple of years ago. it's the idea that it's always in process, and there's something wacky about it too. c.s. lewis, who was probably the 20th century's major proponent of christianity -- at least in the english-speaking world -- >> host: proponent? >> guest: yeah, proponent. great apologist for christianity, very effective one, one reason he liked christianity was because it was so wacky. it's unpredictable, there's always something going on and there's always something you wouldn't have just figured out by your reason. not throwing away the claims of reason, but there's something much more fun about christianity than, well, this is the doctrine that's been worked out, the episcopal church ought to be like this, be like that, that doesn't have much pressure on what christianity really is. >> host: we're familiar with rick warren, joel osteen, billy graham, but you write about some

of the other kind of stars of american christianity in the past. >> guest: the great tradition of evangelists in america, colorful personalities, you couldn't have anyone more colorful than amy simpleman, wonderful characters. they would fit into any drama, any kind of story. and they have something, there's an element of fantasy and fraud about a lot of them. but underneath it there's something that ministers -- [inaudible] they found something. they struck some kind of religious oil. and it's worth looking at them and their effect on people. >> host: stephen cox is the author of this book, "american christianity: the continuing revolution." here's the cover. who designed the cover of this? >> guest: i don't know who designed the cover. but i'm told it was a young mormon in the employ of the university of texas press.

>> host: thanks for being -- >> guest: i think he did a very good job. >> host: thanks for being on booktv. >> guest: thank you. >> booktv is on twitter. follow us to get publishing news, scheduling updates, author information and to talk directly with authors during our live programs. twitter.com/booktv. [inaudible conversations] >> oh, there we go. thanks. is that good? oh, that's much better. good evening, everyone, and what a great crowd. thank you all so much for coming out tonight. i'm lissa muscatine, one of the co-openers of politics and

prose -- co-owners of politics & prose bookstore, and we are delighted to be sponsoring this event. i don't know how many of you realize we also have a book operation here in this store as well as the busboys and poets in brookland and tacoma, and that all started about a year ago. andy, the owner of busboys, approached us and asked if we would help run his book operations which he has in all of his restaurants, and we were ec ecstatic at the possibility. one of the reasons is because we have such a sort of parallel, synergistic role in our communities with busboys, and we were very, very grateful for the opportunity to be here to be able to bring books to many more parts of washington and also events like this one. so i wish andy was here, he had to go off to another event, but this is very much the sort of event that busboys have become known for, and we are extremely proud to be a part of.

and the way this is going to work tonight is that our panel will talk for a bit, and then there will be questions from the audience. a mic will be passed around. if you have a question, just raise your hand. at the end of the event, all four of our guests are, i'm sure you know, very successful authors. their books are right here. you will have a chance to get their books and get them signed if you wish afterwards. so that's the housekeeping. maybe if you have a cell phone on and could turn it off, that would also be a good idea just so it doesn't interrupt the conversation. and i want to just start by thanking april ryan who really, this is her event. she came to us, she asked us if we would consider working with her to create an event like this and sponsor it, and we were really delighted by the prospect. we made it harder for her, besaid, well, you have to have authored -- we said, well, you have to have authors, and, of course, she found not only authors, but great authors and friends of ours at politics & prose who we so treasure in our

community. and so, april, thank you for making this possible. she really is the driving force behind this. [applause] and i just have to say that, you know, this is partly a shameless plug for her book which is called "the presidency in black and white." we, of course, hosted her event when it came out last february, i think, and it's a tremendous book. she's too modest to say this, so i'm going to say it. it's called "the presidency of black and white." i did say that. it has just won the nonfiction award from the 11th annual african-american spirit awards show. [applause] so congratulations. and, you know, there's a lot of controversy now about what's classified and what isn't in washington, so i'm going to err on the side of caution. i don't want to reveal any state secrets, but stay tuned for a few more headlines possibly pertaining to that book. just keep your eyes out to the

news in the next few months. and secondly, and this is just a rumor, she's got another one coming out at some point. and it's progress, and we're going to have her back for that one. >> hold you to it. [laughter] >> so anyway, thank you, april. april will be giving a little more detailed introduction of our panelists tonight, but i do have to say just a brief word about each of them. mike dyson is possibly our best customer at home. [laughter] he just rolled out a dollar figure that he thinks he's spent in the store. i'm not going to hold to it, but he's got to be up there at the top of our best customers. of course, he's a professor, incredibly prolific author, he's written, i don't know, 15 or 16 books including "can you hear me now," i think we have one of his collections here for you if you'd like it. so it's great to have him. we're so delighted always to be with him.

joy ann reid, who we hosted also just a few weeks ago for her new book. she -- i hope you've had a chance to read it. if you haven't, you've got to get it. it's called "fracture." it's one of the smartest books, honestly, about american politics, especially about the evolution of race in the democratic party. fantastic book. so thank you, joy ann, so much for being here. what a contribution that book is. we've got it here for you, so come right up afterwards. and lastly but of course not least, paul butler, who's the author of "let's get free," and he's one of the most respected civil rights attorneys in the country as well as a professor at georgetown law. we are so delighted also to have you, another friend of our store. so i feel, you know, very, very happy to be in such great company with all of them and with all of you. so they're terrific. but i just want to say a couple more things about april. many of you know she's a very familiar voice on american urban

radio, longtime commentator on american politics, been a reporter for more than 30 years and, obviously, in that amount of time she's seen her share of politics and politicians. she's been a white house correspondent for the networks since 1997, covered the presidencies of bill clinton, george w. bush and barack obama. and i think that you read her book, you'll find it's a compilation of a lot of years of observation and a lot of years of immersion in that world of the american presidency. and she's learned a lot, for sure. but i think at least from my vantage point what is most important about april is not the reporting itself, but it's sort of what she does with her reporting. she is one of one or two african-american journalists -- [inaudible] but she has been intent on using that platform to bring news and information to communities that are also too often ignored and marginalized by the conventional news media. and over the years she

literally, literally has become herself a news outlet, a resource for millions of americans who might otherwise be left in the dark about how events in the news are affecting and shaping their own lives, their families and their communities. but i think we should be giving you a public service award. really? i mean -- [applause] journalism at its best, and, you know, it's not, it should be far -- be recognized at a far higher level than it often is, but you are making a tremendous contribution. and including doing this here tonight, so thank you so much for being the driving force, and thanks all of you for coming and being here. we're delighted to have you. >> thank you. [applause] i'll tell you what, i'm floored. any author tries to get to this great place called politics & prose, so this is the owner. this is the owner so, please, support her. and let's thank her because she didn't have to have our books in

her store and have it there. everyone doesn't get to politics & prose. not only that -- and it's true, you know that. >> [inaudible] [laughter] >> and we want to thank her for hosting this and providing the books and hosting all of you tonight. and thank you for coming out. we want to let you know there is food and libation, so if you want -- [laughter] if you need a little nor, a little -- nosh, a little drink, a little food while we're talking, we encourage you. and we thank busboys and poets as well. let's give them a big round of applause. [applause] well, welcome to race in america today, a panel discussion. i'm your moderator, april ryan, and i want to move on down the line to my great panel. i mean, i'm in awe of these people. and i'm going to give short bios. i mean, you know who they are. next to me, michael eric dyson, georgetown professor of sociology and author of 16, count them, 16 books. 16 books including "can you hear

me now" and "april 4, 1968." let's give him a big round of applause. thank you, michael, for coming. [applause] the great, the great, the great joy ann reid, the author of the new book "fractured." i'm so happy for you. joy ann reid is a national correspondent for msnbc, former managing editor of the reel and author, again, of "fractured." you know, to be honest with you many people believe -- and it's not, this is an unscientific statement that i'm going to make, but i'm going to say it -- i think you're one of the best reporters around. i'm serious, and i thank you. thank you for being here. [applause] and seated at the end, the illustrious author, paul butler, former federal prosecutor and author of "let's get free," and currently a law professor at georgetown university. thank you so much for coming. [applause] now, i want to, i want to start this off with something, and

many of us watch the news, we're consumed by the news and current issues. and right now issues of our culture, our time focus around race. and i can't help but last year think about a conversation we had in a car. we were in a car talking about race, and it's a lot. it's more than -- there's a lot underneath the surface that you just don't know. and i hope that this panel brings you a little bit more insight and understanding as to what's really going on. michael said you scared of the truth. i put my head down, and i had to hold my ears, i couldn't take it anymore. [laughter] but this is a real dialogue. and i want to start off with the fact that w.e.b. dubois wrote in 1903 the problem of the 20th century is the problem of the color line. immediately after the election of president barack obama, there were frequent media assertions of a postracial america. meanwhile, earlier this year on a flight to selma, alabama, for

the 50th anniversary of bloody sunday, i asked president obama would he consider america postracial or post-obama? listen to what he said to me. he said, quote: i think there's no doubt that my election was a significant moment in this country's racial history. i say that with all humility. and then later in his answer he went on to say, i wouldn't equate my election with seminal moments like the emancipation proclamation or the passage of the civil rights act of 1964, the voting rights act t of 1965. those were massive changes in legal status that represented fundamental breaks with america's tragic history. he also said they were the pillars, the 13th amendment, the 14th amendment, the 15th amendment, the civil rights act of the 1960s. he said those represented the dismantling of formal discrimination in this country, and there's nothing that's going to compare to that. and with that said, where are we now?

are we post-duboise? in the next 16 months or so, are we be post-obama or are we postracial? i'm going to start with you, joy. >> oh, thanks. thanks a lot. [laughter] thanks a lot, april. first of all, i want to echo your thanks to politics & prose as well as to busboys and poets as well as to you, april, for bringing us all together. it is an honor to be here with this really great panel, so thank you very much. and thanks a rot more starting -- a lot for starting with me, really. [laughter] so, you know, i think when you talk about the country being postracial, i think that is a goal that the country cannot fully share. i think when you think about the united states of america, it is one of the most explicitly race-conscious countries ever put together anywhere. the formation and the foundation of the country was explicitly race-conscious. it was consciously placed into

our founding documents that to be free, white and male had a meaning for your citizenship, and to not be those things had a meaning for your lack of citizenship. and the struggle to bring about the equality of african-americans is foundational to the country. so i think it is, it's interesting that the desire to be postracial -- i think it really reflects very different goals and very different sort of psychic needs that african-americans and white americans, frankly, have when they think about race in america. i think for a lot of white americans -- and by no means you can't say everyone -- there is a desire for transcendence, to transcend the racial past, to somehow put a period on the end of that sentence and to say that we have now come past this point where race matters. but race has mattered in everything. it's been so explicit. and it used to be a consciousness on the part of white americans about race. it sort of drove policy, whether it was jim crow policy, whether

it was housing policy, whether it was who could live on this block, who could go to this school. it was explicitly race conscious, so we now come to a point in our history where i think a lot of white america wants to put a period on the end of that sentence and get postracial whereas for african-americans, race is something that we're living every day, that we're living right now, when we walk through a store when a police officer follows us. african-americans have no desire to transcend race other than to just be fully citizens. and that has never been allowed. african-americans, i think, have a desire to litigate the issue of race. and i think for a lot of white americans the expectation is to transcend it, and those are two opposite goals that can never be brought into union, and i think that's why we have so much discord over race. >> let's go to former prosecutor in the litigation, and we're seeing criminal justice, we're seeing so much right now in the way of the visuals. and many people are seeing the inequity, the inequality in this nation we have talked about for

years, but now you see the visuals. we are from from the community. and there's also an article, the paradox of the first black president. how does all of that play into this post-obama, postracial, post-duboise and the litigation issue? >> so i'm going to agree with joy and respectfully disagree with dr. duboise. the problem then and now was never the color line. the problem is white supremacy. and white supremacy has not been impacted at all. i love the president. i have an barack obama action figure on my table. [laughter] whenever i come home and someone's knocked it down, i stand it up -- >> [inaudible] >> i love the president. so i, i can move -- [laughter] sometimes i have --

[inaudible] but when he was elected, i don't think anyone expected that he would reverse 400 years of white supremacy. i do think -- >> meaning slavery. >> slavery, the old jim crow, the new jim crow. i do think people hoped that he would make racial justice a significant part of his agenda. and he has not. and because i have so much love and respect for him, it's disappointing. because if he applied his brilliant mind and his amazing political talents to racial justice as he has other issues like lgbt equality, immigration, trade, i think we could be further along than we are. so if we look at where we are now with black family wealth, when president obama took office, the average was $18,000,

the average net worth of a black family. for a white family, it's $142,000. black family wealth has actually gone down during the time that the president has been in office. white family wealth has gone up. and if we look at the criminal justice system, you know, if you look at places like ferguson and baltimore, something to think that the problem is bad apple cops. that's not really the problem. the problem is criminal justice. it's also infused with white supremacy. the problem isn't so much what's illegal, the problem is what's legal, what the police are allowed to do. and so in many ways when we look at ferguson, the system is working the way it's supposed to work. so when we think about reform, that might be a mild way of thinking about the change that

this country needs in order to truly establish racial justice and just really quickly, you mentioned president obama's speech at selma. i think there he understood that. there he talked about the way that the civil rights movement of the '60s had transformed america. it wasn't about reform, it's about transformation. we need that transformation now. >> thank you so much, professor butler. [applause] understanding that we come from a about vantage of research and knowledge and reporting and sourcing, michael eric dyson, i want to ask you is it fair to pin a lot of these hopes on this president when it took 400 years to come out of? i mean, it took 200 years to come out of what happened 400 years ago. can we lump all of this on this

president? and should we look to the past to see who we are today and how we should go forward now and after he's president? >> well, i want to say it's great to be here with april, the great joy reid and the magnanimous and gifted professor paul butler. look, of course it's not fair to pin all of our hopes on one man, to put all of our eggs in one basket. but it's unavoidable. because we love him so much. he's our guy. he's tall, terrific, talented with a tall, terrific, talented wife and children, and they are the sparkling image of the projected brilliance of the black family which is an implicit rebuttal to the moynihan report about the pathology of the black family. in a narrow, he hetero-sexist v,

but an important one. on the other hand, look at the humility of obama in responding to your question where he says, hey, i wouldn't put my presidency on the level of the 13th, 14th amendment, i'm not going to put it on the level of the civil rights bill. most of us be president, we'd be, like, yeah, that was the greatest thing in the history of negroes ever, me being president. yep, that's how it goes. so you can see that the man is exquisitely and consciously humble in the most appropriate fashion. and in a refreshing fashion. if you juxtapose him to people on the other side of the aisle running now who relentlessly remind us of their billions -- i don't want to name any names. [laughter] then he holds the trump card. [laughter] so to speak. now, as james brown elegantly

said house and ever, barack obama is the project of paradox, is the purveyor of paradox and pursues a project that, as professor butler said and ms. reid said, is one that is highly ironic and also disappointing to this degree. it is not that we can foist the -- hoist the entire, if you will, gravity and weight of our existence onto obama's slim shoulders, and yet history hasp done that. history -- has done that. history has thrust upon him what martin luther king jr. said, the battering rams of historical necessity. you can't have the goodies without the burdens. the blessings are you're the first african-american president. the blessing is that you as a black man had an ideal that no other black person in the history of this universe has ever successfully nurtured in his own mind. i will be the head of the most powerful democracy in the

history of the world. so that's extraordinary. on the other hand, i think what professor butler is suggesting and ms. reid is also pointing to, we never thought this was going to be a postracial reality. obama himself says in his second book about hope, "the audacity of hope," that, slow down, don't put the postracial tag here because we ain't there yet. rather, what we should have -- as richard ford says, a law professor and others of us have amplified it -- a postracial society. postracial means postblack. we have been there, done black. thought we had finished it. now obama has been elected, we're good. we've wiped our hands of blackness, no more responsibility. is he responsible for that? of course not. what he is responsible for is not in, i think, with great diplomacy understanding that there's not much he could be critical of white america about

in this country. because they wasn't going to have it. and a fundraiser in san francisco, mr. obama, president obama, then-senator obama said when tough gets tough, some white folk get guns, are bitter or, you turn to their religion, and he got beat down. and he knew then never again to speak ill of white brothers and sisters in america. why? because people are chagrined when even a so-called ostensibly biracial, half-white man makes a comment about white america. that lets us know, no, you are still perceived as a black man. on the flip side, what president obama has done relentlessly is to chide and deliver tirades against african-american people in ways that have been called out by a number of figures. that's unfortunate. so his genius that professor butler talks about, let's not

underestimate that. this man has existed in the midst of white supremacy, the conscious or unconscious believe that some groups are inherently inferior and others are superior. that does not have to do with individual existential assertions about the legitimacy or lack thereof of black people, it's an institutional mechanism that is self-perpetuating. in light of that, when we look at what white supremacy has attempted to do, it has attempted to unbirth obama, to wipe his name clear, to legislate against him in the supreme court to make certain that obamacare would not succeed and legislatively to pretend that it would not exist, and it has stood the test of time. so he's been amazing and brilliant against the odds, but he's also reinterpreted and reasserted some of the most vicious stereotypes about black people that should not be tolerable. and it chagrins me to say that what he is responsible for is his own mouth, his own bully pulpit, his own personal and

political capital and the degree to which he is supported. why do i know that he's a great man? because lately he has turned course, he has changed his modus operandi, he has changed his rhetorical deployment of rhetoric -- of language, and he has used it to defend black people, he has used it to elevate black people, and he's used it to point out the vicious persistence of white supremacy that unfurled under the banner of a hateful confederate flag. that is the obama that we were promised in 2007 and '8. that is the obama who is finally coming into full gestation, and we hope that with the birth of that baby before he leaves, it will survive after he leaves office. >> all right, so with that, go ahead, joy. [applause] i normally am loathe to ever follow michael eric dyson. it's not a good idea. >> you have to think about all the big words he uses. [laughter] >> i have a mental thesaurus

that's on to make sure that i got all the words. but i love a big word. i do. [laughter] i'm a nerd. so, and i think that one of the points that both professor butler and professor dyson made, i think it's very important that i think we don't make enough about this notion of postracialism. the postracial moment in america occurred almost immediately upon the arrival of american enslaved africans. if you look at the history of african people in this country, it took no time at all for africans, enslaved people, to adopt the styles, the customs, the beliefs in democracy and the rights of man of white americans. immediately after slavery, african-americans attempted to become postracial. go back and look at the photos of african-americans at the time, frederick douglass adopted even the hair style of white

america, believed in the ideals of democracy of white america, attempted to run for office and, in fact, did. you had african-americans who bought into the whole idea of american democracy and ran for the united states senate. they weren't trying to put forward an african aesthetic, they put forward a very american aesthetic right away, and what happened? the whole idea of reconstruction, it was fully bought into by african-americans who wanted to go to school at the schools of white americans, who wanted to get the same education as white americans, who never thought of separatist ideals. it was only later when it was wholesale rejected. it was the country itself that rejected postracialism. the response to reconstruction in which african former slaves not only did not exact revenge upon those who had enslaved them, but attempted to buy into their ideals and social norms down to their dress, down to their style of doing our hair. the first black millionaire is

someone who was able to -- >> [inaudible] >> exactly, to help african-american women adopt the hair style of white america. so postracialism is something that african-americans tried. the response was vicious postreconstruction. the end of reconstruction was not just an afterthought, it was violent. it was a vicious rebuke of postracialism. and i think because we tend to think of black people as the people who are racial, we tend to forget that this country was highly racialized and that the attempt at postracialism was wholesale rejected. we talked about pitchfork ben tillman who said we have to kill them to prevent them from thinking they can marry our daughters, move near our homes and be our equal. so the attempts by african-americans to be postracial has never been successful. they've had to have federal troops march them into college. they've had to have federal troops march their children into elementary school. they've had to fight mobs of

screaming mothers, women. they had to fight lynching. and so every president up to barack obama has had to confront the race question. tyler, buchanan and lincoln all were confronted with the question of what to do with all of these africans who in some communities comprised 90% of the population, right? and who were feared and loathed by the people who lived with them. lincoln was the one who was successful, that's why we see him as a successful president. woodrow wilson, confronted with this question of what to do about the lynching of black soldiers who were coming home and had the cheek to wear a uniform and walk around proud as if they were white men trying to be postracial. he failed utterly in his response to this question of lynching. so we have this postracialism that is assumed to be a failing on the part of black america to, quote, get over slavery. the country couldn't get over slavery and wouldn't allow black people to get past it. when black people wanted nothing

more than to be postracial and to asimilar hate into the society, they had to go -- assimilate into society, they had to go to court, they had to march, they had to risk death, fire bombings of their churches, lynching and murder to be postracial. so i think the whole idea of postracialism is asking the wrong people to do it. [applause] >> and, and, and -- >> go ahead. >> but to ask joy reid to continue that thought, every president -- you were saying until obama -- had to address the issue of race. >> yes, all the presidents. >> so can one president be exempt from that? >> exactly. no. and that's the question, is whether or not -- if eisenhower was forced to confront the idea of emmitt tell being lynched and failed to confront it, he had to account for brown v. board of education, that's part of the record of his presidency. kennedy wanted to do tax cuts. when he was elected in 1960, his

big thing he wanted to do was a tax cut. he needed the southerners to do it. he didn't want to do civil rights, but he was forced to confront it. the murder of medgar evers forced him to con front it you had lyndon johnson who was a southerner had to confront -- >> he didn't want to do it. >> absolutely. nixon didn't want to deal with busing. he had to deal with busing, housing desegregation. every president has had to deal with the race question. it's completely unfair and strange to say the first black president is the only guy who gets a pass. >> not only that, not only that -- [laughter] not only gets a pass -- >> oh, i'm sorry. [laughter] >> but here's the point. if you say you don't want to be exempt from the normal characterizations of other presidents because of your color, which i think is fair, then you can't be exempt from the responsibility that every other president has had which is to address the issue of race.

now, are we saying the following: the existential terror, the personal discomfort, the kind of unease that this president understandably experiences because he is the first person to embody in his own existence, his very body, the torn mandate and the, if you will, the torn agenda of american democracy that he lives every day. and he says it. he says, look, i'm biracial, that means i have resolved some of the conflicts in the nation in my own body. if that's the case, how in the world can we expect the first african-american president to be exempt from dealing with the most serious issue that has riven this nation, that has torn it apart, that has been characterized as america's original sin by his own words? how can we not expect him to deliver that high intelligence and that political power to that

particular issue? i think that's part of the disappointment that we have experienced as citizens of this country. >> and, professor dyson, you led me to my next question, and i'm going to pose this to professor butler. you know, we understand, we mapped out there are issues, there are problems, pervasive problems since the time africans were enslaved in this country, went through the middle passage and enslaved in this country. now where do we go from here? you know, we can talk til the cows come home, we can talk forever about the problems, but where do you go from here being a former president, a professor, someone who researches, the civil rights movement was the most successful movement in this nation. the women's rights groups have taken the blueprint. the lgbt community has taken the blue print. those who are pro-immigration have taken the blueprint. african-american communities particularly dropped the blue print. and then you had pope francis come into this nation.

he dropped the mic at the white house. and what did he say? we have defaulted on our promissory note. and when he said that, everyone -- the whole south lawn said, ooh. that was one of the strongest statements in that i have a dream speech. so where do we go from here? what is the solution? let's not continue to to fester on the problem. we know there are problems. i report on them all the time. let's talk about the solution. >> in order to talk about the solution, you have to correctly frame the problem. the day after president obama was elected the first time, i go into my local starbucks. we high-fived my barista, a young mihm woman the way we were -- african-american woman the way we were all giving each other fist bumps that day, and she said, you know what? there's this homeless african-american guy that camps outside the starbucks.

every day she'd given him a little bit of change because she felt sorry for him. that morning when she got to work and she saw him lying there with his hand out, she said to him, barack obama is president. get a job. and the concern is -- again, that's not understanding what the problem is, right? and the concern is that in some ways the president has played into that narrative. so when he goes can to morehouse college of all places and says nobody cares how much discrimination you suffered, it's impossible to imagine hillary going to wellesley or smith and saying get over that glass ceiling. lean in. so the president is -- >> don't you think he felt that he could say that when he went to more house? >> that familiarity comes a responsibility as well. so if you have the privilege to talk about folks in a certain way, you also have the

obligation to lift them up. and i don't see that, that lifting up. you know, i think in his heart perhaps it's there, but we haven't seen it in his actions to the extent that he has -- partly because he does not want to focus on race. so what he says about african-american unemployment, always twice that of white unemployment. he says i can't pass a black jobs bill, but if i fix the economy, then african-americans will benefit. a rising tide lifts all boats is the theory. but if you don't have a boat in the first place -- which african-americans don't -- [laughter] then you don't rise up. so, again, the problem is not african-american culture or behavior, but the reason that our net worth is -- that white people have a net worth of eight times what we have is not because we don't work hard. it's not because we don't when we're unemployed go out and look for jobs all the time. it's because discrimination is

alive and well. if you're a black person and you send out a resumé and you have what's considered a black-sounding name, you don't get the callback that you get with the same qualifications if you have a white-sounding name. so we have to confront, again, not the color line, not blackness. we have to confront white supremacy. that's the problem. and so when we think about ways that we can address that, there are some reforms that we can make so with regard to the criminal justice system where african-americans are, especially young african-american men, are basically hunting down by the police which is why one in three young black men will get arrested for misdemeanors, for things that the police are looking for to arrest you for. so we can decriminalize misdemeanors. freddie gray was stopped by the cops for running away from him. the cop didn't even know what he was doing, just wanted to see why he was running away.

in ferguson michael brown was stopped for walking in the street. eric garner for selling a loose cigarette. why should the police be able to arrest you for those crimes? so decriminalizing a lot of conduct not because we necessarily approve of the conduct, but we don't trust the police. so we have to reduce contact between the police and citizens. it's a shame that we have to say that in a democracy with an african-american president, but that shows you how powerful -- i hate to keep saying it because i know a lot of folks are suffering from racial fatigue, including a lot of black folks -- but that shows you how powerful a force white supremacy is. >> very interesting dialogue. we're going to start opening this up to questions. and if you have a question, abby will take the mic and walk around. if you have a question, please raise your hand. we have a question. don't be shy. we've got time, and we've got four authors here who are willing to answer your questions. so, yes, joy. go ahead.

>> i was going to make the point that, you know, i think one of the things that you have to understand about barack obama and what makes him really a really intriguing figure is that, you know, we are in a lot of ways who we're raised to be. and barack obama occupies this really unique space in american racial and ethnic life in that he is a man whose african-americanness comes from africanness, right? you know, i share that with him, having an african parent whose tradition is not through the lineage of enslavement. and so you have a different sort of, you know, sort of twist on the -- >> very -- [inaudible] >> different, right? right. and then he has the people who actually raised him. and i think part of the reason that barack obama is such an effective politician and was such an effective and really was probably the person best situated to be the first black president of the united states is that he comes at the issue of

race without any of the aspect that being african-american naturally sort of gives you. he was, essentially, raised in white america and raised with the attitudinal sort of mindset of sort of midwestern white america. and so this idea of sort of midwestern probity of hard work and putting your shoulder to the wheel and personal responsibility and all these sort of ethics that he was raised with by his grandparents, i think, really informed what he really thinks. i don't think barack obama is pretending to think that if african-american fathers, you know, turn off the tv and, you know, and make their kids go ooh to bed early, i don't think he's making that up. i think that's what he was raised to believe. so he understands, i think in an intuitive way, that a lot of white america is exhausted by the notion of race and is exhausted by the notion of constantly readdressing the racial dynamics that proceeds from slavery. and i think that you do have, you look at his race speech in philadelphia, he voices almost

perfectly both the feelings of african-americans because he's lived in a black body and he has experienced being black in america, but also the sort of attitudinal mindset of a lot of white america that says, you know what? my parents came here from ireland in 1920, that has nothing to do with me, and i don't want to hear about it anymore. and also this shift that took place post-lyndon johnson where a lot particularly in the suburbs and the declining industrial base of the country, a lot of the white working class said, wait a minute, we want to deal with the issues of economic decline, not the issues of race. we don't want to have to deal with busing black kids into our schools, we want better jobs and things like that. so i think he understands the biracial dynamic in a really unique way. some people say he's the least angry black man in america, that's why he could be the first black president. [laughter] >> let me say this just real quickly. if you're a black woman or a black man or a black child in

america, if you're not angry, something's wrong. [laughter] you're not -- [applause] you're not understanding, you're not really entrusted with theology. so i thought the race speech in philadelphia was eloquent. if you remember the context, he was in trouble because of a black preacher who made some remarks about race that a lot of white people didn't appreciate. and so the point of that speech was to say, you know what? black people can actually be racist. oh, and by the way, white people can be racist too. and that was treated with -- the response from a lot of white people is this is brilliant. i didn't learn anything from that speech. he has this even handedness when it comes to race. but again, the problem is not an even-handed problem. the problem is not, as you've said, african-americans. it's white people. so when we look at all of the way -- [applause]

and it's white supremacy. so, again, when joy says it's, you know, it's not black people who need to change. we're not responsible for the problem. are there things that we can do differently? are there, you know, if young men pulled their pants up, that might look better. but it's not going to end white supremacy. it's not going to end the fact that unemployment for african-americans is twice that of whites. [applause] so, again, it's really important -- it's scary when you talk about the problem is white supremacy, because that means things like body cams for police respect going to address that. ..

>> 20 years later, 2008, there was another black woman on the battle for president. do you know who that is? mckinney. she was on the battle the same year barack obama was under the green party. i didn't vote for obama in 2008. we have had two instances where black people who were not

democrats were on the ballot to be president and were ignored by the black press and most importantly the regular black people. how can black people take any sense of black independence when most black people and most black organizations voluntarily subject themselves to involuntarily servitude to the democratic party? [applause] >> i would just say, as somebody who is a super voter, i can tell you most presidential elections have about 25 people on them. that is a lot of people running for president. it is not just a republican and democrat. our system is a two-party system. it is almost impossible for a third party candidate to get traction which is why when you have a ross perot or john anderson it is rare and difficult. it is expensive to get on the ballot in 50 states. it is not

that the media is excluding the black candidates not polling in the national averages at more than 1%. it is all of the other 24 candidates running for president that noone pays much attention to. i think you have to realize, and this is something i definitely have learned in the research for writing my book, is that the black vote is a pragmatic vote. it doesn't spend much time looking for psychic re-dress and feel-good canidancy. >> let's talk about how in the '60s the black vote moved from the republican side to the democrat side because of civil rights >> it was all pragmatic.

shirley chism stopped the plan to put their choosing and they were running in the view of a woman versus candidate. jesse jackson had no support from the black community. only until it was a movement. barack obama ran for everything, senate and president, he didn't have the black establishment on his side. the black establishment was with hillary clinton until he won in iowa and proved he could win in a white state. the black vote is pragmatic. it is not looking for the blackest candidate but the one that can win. >> black people want to win.

rush may be appealing to some but not others. just because you are black, it doesn't mean you planned out how to get enough votes to be compelling to get taken seriously. we know there are obstacles that prevent the possibility of those people. but the narrow perspectives that have been articulated means pragmatic is one and winning is another. black folk are tired of symbolic runs. barack obama came along and it was a different moment because he was able -- he had to work for the black vote. he didn't take it for granted. he had to go to howard

university, and remind us what he did about racial profile, he articulated his blackness. let me say this, the difference, april ryan, when you have the ability -- of course we know barack obama can say stuff no other candidates can say -- pull up your pants, turn the tv off, eat your chicken -- he is not the first to see that. you will hear the conservative moral value that we now think is being invented. here is the difference in that famous speech on father's day. barack obama quoted chris rock. he said black people want to

congratulated for what you do. i take care of my kids -- you should take care of your kids. he quotes that but doesn't when chris rock says black people's backs were the cabs. if you talk about, professor butler said this, italian americans speak to italians like we can't, so look at the people that reprimand their people. can you imagine the first jewish president saying we have to stop the madness going on in the world? no. because then you make people vulnerable to the pre-existing condition of that behavior. but barack obama, i think, play fast and loose, with the truth of black existence by reinforcing black stereotypes.

he went to barnard and didn't say stop belly aching about gender oppression and the glass ceiling. he said i identify with you and i know it sounds like i am pandering but i think the future is involved with women. can we get some of that? let me end by saying this. we know that barack obama cannot be critical for the most part of dominant white culture. we know he can't. here is my point. since you know you can't be critical of white folk, don't be critical of black folk, because it looks like the only people with the problem are the black people and not the white folk. if you can't be equal with of your kids don't say nothing to any of them. >> thank you, reverend johnson. let's go to the next question.

>> i agree with this. i think it is the more important issue and it there is a book about the oppressed and they talk about -- it went out -- it is back. it is the role -- i don't know. it is messing up. it is the role of the oppressed to liberate themselves as well as the oppressor in order to push forward to a better standing. we are talking about issues and if you can't work within the system in order to improve the system because the system is working with white supremacy and you cannot be out running against it because if you do it because the white individuals

would be the person doing it in order to move us on the right path towards racially inequality and a better understanding of race. what can we do ourselves to bring ourselves to the forefront that we will equal as well as them joining us. >> i think the black lives matter movement is pointing us toward somewhere. we don't any where.

but they have been savvy at using images and media and we think about going from the streets of baltimore and the focus. it isn't because of the images new. we had images of police killing and beating up black people since way before rodney king. that is nothing knew. what is new is these young activist have been able to use the images to focus attention and start a conversation. they are not perfect, you know? and the conversation between hillary and the young black activist i think hillary won the game plan.

it isn't going to lead to a uto utopia and i am not coming up with specifics because i am trusting the process will help a. >> we have an issue also in this country where people need to come to a place where why are comfortable to listening to people on the other side of the divide and not asribbing to the

beliefs. i think one reason trump is so poplar is for a lot of white americans there is a sense the language of race is all about political correctness and limiting what they are able to comfortablely say in public. they don't necessarily feel comfortable confronting issues of race across the racial divide for fear of the idea of racism becoming the worst thing you can say. there is a lot of raw feelings that are attached to that knocks. -- that feeling. we are segregated still. the school system is as segerated as ever and becoming more so. you have the public school system that is the place where minority kids are educated.

in selma, 2% of white kids are in public school and the vast majority are pulled out and put in public school. we need to be more comfortable with having uncomfort cable conversations. and say let me explain my point of view without feeling like we are in combat. other countries are not winning at this believe me. go to europe and look how they failed to integrate north africans into france or great britain or other countries where people can never become french. no matter how many generations they have been there they are considered morracan and he is right. eric holder, that is all he meant when he said we are a

nation of cowards. he was saying people are afraid to talk about race and the issues that we disagree across the divide because they are afraid of how they will be perceived >> the issue is you want to talk about it but how can you talk about race that is so passionate and real for people without having the emotion? that is the question. >> let's give, i think, president obama credit to this degree, he understood and designed a zeitgiest. he told the story of the white guy leaning over in the state senate and saying, you know, the problem is, every time i listen to senator xyz i feel whiter.

and obama, by the suggestion of his more morally equivalent race speech didn't make people feel guilty. the problem is the following though: when you are a minority in this country -- racially, sexually, even religiously but think mostly in terms of color -- you have to hear stuff on tv and radio that is outrageous before you brush your teeth. then you have to do the mouth wash in between them. and the next report is about all messed up your culture is, how you are addicted to violence, and how women don't take care of their kids. and on and on and on. relentless propaganda in the name of a supposedly neutral news media that is reproducing

the pathology of the notion that black people are somehow the problem. but when white americans hear negative things about them they shutdown. black people have to stay. where are we going? we are there in the country. we are at church and hear stuff we don't like. some might get up and leave. but we are conditioned. even when white folks say criminally insane or ignorant things we are conditioned to stay and disagree. one of the forms of white privilege is exit, one of the forms of white privilege is denial, one of the forms of white privilege is to pretend what you say isn't true and go to my neighborhood that doesn't contain the containment that is being dealt with. this is the problem with barack obama making the moral equivalent of what white people

and black people have to do. let's look at the fresh new language that might redescribe the problems we confront together and ask white brothers and sisters to take responsibility. if barack obama in the last 16 months could say to white america, you know what, you cannot say i haven't been fair. i have been on the negros. i want black people to step up. he did that at the remarkable press conference with the japanese premier when he said about freddie gray when a walmart burns up we get mad, say what happened, and pledge we have commitment to the relief of that suffering and go back to business as usual. and if you want an equal society you cannot do it. that is as close as we got to doing it. white america, stop beating up on black people. why do you think obama kept repeating the same sentence?

white america thinks black people are racially diluted. they think we are making up stuff. you shoot a man called walter scott and plant evidence. if that happened on time, it has happened thousands of time off tape. barack obama can encourage white americans to speak more honestly and openly about the issue of race. and in my own class, we are studying blacks death from slavery to michael brown. yesterday we read a book called they left marks on us about testimony of racial violence from emancipation to world war one. and i had students present. two white students. one said the following: in my presentation i must admit it might be ashamed to be white.

i don't want students to be ashamed to be white but ashamed of the things done in the whiteness that has been adescribe -- ascribed to them. the problem that white folk made with black folk was said the real error was putting behind them. black survival was dependent on how white people think. we know how they think, act, act nice and smile and behind go what is going on? and on the other hand, she said white folk don't know anything about our culture and as a result of that that ignorance has been lethal. if the president can invite us to have that kind of conversation his legacy would be bananas. >> we will take one last

question because we are over time. >> if we get the questions, and write them down, i think we can do it. we can do it. >> yes, we can! >> we can do it. [inaudible question]

>> thank you. i just wanted to pose the question that, you know, we are talking about legacy now for obama, post-obama, it has been a asserted the winners write history, we are talking about white supremeracy, and i am wondering in the fullness of time will the white population write history based on the

contributions of obama and if something to do with -- i think in 50 years from now, when the judgment is really sort of in, the first judgment, that the white establishment will underestimate or under value the contributions made and i think that has profound implications for building on the private sector. >> thank you so much. next question? real fast questions. >> we need to give whites assignments more to talk about race, but all of the institutions need to stop committing racial acts. they need assignments to be curage hazardoourageou courageous.

thank you. >> i am curious how the panel feels -- >> we are here at 655,000 people disenfranchised in the nation's capital and it took president obama six years to comment on this. do you think it has anything to do with the fact that washington, d.c. is still over 50% black? [applause] >> question over here. >> the greatest weapon of the oppre oppressed is the mind of the oppressive in a state of war. >> thank you. >> quickly, i am curious to know from the panelist about the foreign policy dimension of the racial issues in the united states. and i will also have questions about what is the state of black economic power?

that is for my brother and i will not point him out. >> my question is how long are we content to discuss equality with whites? how long are we setting them as the barometer to measure ourselves against them? if we get to the point where we stop measuring ourselves against can we elevate ourselves for our own independence and problems? >> next question. >> thank you for running around. what are two things, concrete things, that the every day bite person in the room can do combat white supremacy and what are things the every-day black person can do to combat black supremacy? >> this is a question for mark. do you think biracial people

have a better chance in america than they did before? >> hi, i have another question -- [inaudible question] >> with cases like the michael brown case, what do you think the system could have done better when handling it? >> okay. one more you had your hand up. right here. >> now, once you get ready to start answering the questions you want to answer and can answer -- yes, ma'am? question. >> i have a slightly different questions than the question asked earlier. socio-economic places where economically black has been the backbone of this country since brought here. i am curious as to how socio

economically we are affected as compared with middle america because i perceive a lot of things right now as more -- than middle white america. >> there is a new study when you talk about the back of the country was built on the black of african-americans they are calling slaves immigrants and workers. >> and i am going to say this. you will hear my personal opinion on this. you will! i have a problem and every day i am questions president and principals when they say why a nation of immigrants i am like immigrants and slaves. native americans as well. and i have said that, too. so you are exactly right. we have to remember the whole --

because who is he? the totality of this. and i will thank the panel -- let's give them a round of applause. [applause] >> i will talk about what should have happened in michael brown's case in ferguson. there are encouraging developments with things that can make a difference in the short term. things like the police having body cams. that will make a difference. the surplus view on american citizens and the program has been changed in part because of president obama.

so they are encouraging development. but when you look at what the ferguson report claims there are problems. the ferguson police arrested a guy named michael for giving false information because he told them his name was mike. a woman called the police to report she was being beat up by her boyfriend and when the cops got there the boyfriend was good and the police looked around and said it looks like he lives there, does he? and she said yes and they said you are under arrest because he is not on the occupancy permit. the ferguson police were using african-american citizens as a slush fund/atm. the problem is this is all legal. there is nothing constitutional or unlegal about this. the question is if it is true, as lot of us think, that white supremacy is embedded in our country, and our identity as a nation was built on exploiting

african-american people, we have to think about what racial justice would do to our identity as a nation. so we have to have conversations. conversations about if the free market or capitalism reflect our envisions. and for the woman who said what should you say to black boys, one thing you should say is don't forget about black girls. they are not doing any better than black boys. they have issues in the criminal justice system and always issues way outside of the criminal justice system. the average net worth of an unmarried black woman is $100. >> will the white establishment diminish the contributions of barack obama? it will be difficult if you know

how the story operates. the metrics for a successful presidency, two terms, the idea of passing health care reform which was a hundred year project, the end of bin laden, saving the auto industry, i think he has enough accomplishments it will be difficult to keep him from out of the top ten. i think it will drive the right crazy but it will be hard to defin -- diminish him. i want to bring back my profession, the news media. we operated with notions that are just wrong for too long. we are almost too open of recipients from the state. the state includes the please as well. when we are told a man was shot after an altercation with a police officer in which he tried to take his taser we should not

buy into the that only to find he is walter scott and was found dead running away and the taser was dropped by this body. we need to take time and not give the benefit of the doubt to the state. for white america, one of the things we can do and barack obama can do is stop post carding the idea of civil rights. civil right and the fight for justice is not something that happened in the '60s. it is an ongoing and every present struggle. it is not a thing in the past they are bringing up for african-americans. it is something that happened this morning. if we can stop thinking about it from the past and empathize with our fellow citizens who can not send their kid to the local store without being afraid of the local police -- that is a serious and undermining condition for society. if you have a substantial number of citizens afraid of the piece. and on washington, d.c.

statehood, yes, it has the fact to do with this is the majority of black community and congress wants to keep it independent and keep it from being franchised. we have too many disincentives to equality. and americans should start to think outside of their own box. understand when people talk about race they are not bringing up historical facts from a hundred years ago. they are bringing up what happened to their children now. we get afraid when a police car pulls up behind us because the instances of police killing are never followed by prosecution. and vote for laws and prosecutors who will hold bad cops to account. i have police officer friends who say they don't want those guys in there either because they threaten them, too. they cannot tell on the bad cops because they are afraid they

will not get backed up on a robbery. we need cops who take case do is trial. if you had something where what happened in st. louis where it was clear the prosecutor had no interest in pursuing the case and allowed the officer to investigate himself and showed no interest of considering prosecution -- those are elected officials. you have the right to vote however the supreme court is trying to snatch back the voting rights. use what is left and snatch back what you can in every election. >> great points by both speakers. black boys? love them as a protection against the inevitable assault upon their beings. love them so thoroughly they will love the hell out of themselves and we will squeeze the resistance to their greatness out of them. one of the great marks of what it means to be black in this country under the spell of a

certain belief that we are inferior is the belief that we should snuff out jgenius and black talent. we think we have to be against it as opposed to collaborating with it. teaching them to love and respect women and treat them well as well. and in terms of obama, look the dude saved the automobile industry, he gave the american recovery act, he gave us obamacare and then he saved the economy. i know people were pissed they said what about main street? if the first black president comes in and the headline reads obama allows the banks to fail and the economy goes to hell there is nothing more written about that brother right there. he was in a difficult position and did what he had to do. i think it will be seen as the

black reagan. as time goes on, barack obama will be seen as one of the top ten president, maybe top seven, within the mystery of the country and being the first african-american will give him mauri mauriore icing on top. and the ceo of starbucks, i love him. take your coffee, and by the way way, deal with white supremacy at the same time. in terms of the young baby asking the question about biracial. is biracialism an advantage? to some people. when you live in a culture that privileges the white side of the black dyad people think you have good hair, fairer skin, you look more like the european ideal of beautiful, that is not the person's fault him or herself who is biracial.

that is the sickness of the culture that only privileges one form of beauty. being light, bright and almost white may be beautiful to many. but being dark in the park like bark is a beautiful thing as well and we should celebrate that as well. i just made it up. i am just saying. for me, but some biracial people like barack obama have to work harder because they didn't have black privilege. a lot of black people are born with black privilege. when obama talks about the fact he tried to say did you read malcolm-x and they said i don't need to read that. they don't have the advantage of black privilege so they have to learn. when i have students who are not african-american in my class and i tell the students you cannot come up in here and just because you are black you get the privilege. you have to read the damn book

like everybody else. one of the most vicious things white supremacy did was make black people think they don't have to study their own culture. ( ( ( and this is a great point. randy kennedy has a story here about how coats is wrong about respectability politics and said because dyson has a suit on why is he talking. negro, i am a preacher and was raised as a preacher. this is the uniform of war. i am in war against conceptions of what black people are. i am challenging respectability possibilities. i am saying every negro alive is a star. black people must understand

even people denied and seen as less than are just as important as those who are seen more than. the respectability of politics is a big bowl of jello and the man who promoted it deals with horrible consequences of his alleged activity. that is the ultimate logic of respectability, politics in america, and urban america shouldn't be privileged about others. but we talk about d.c. statehood it might have been chocolate hood but it is mixed now. gentrification is real. james baldwin in the 1960s to k kenneth clark said urban renewal meant negro removal. and until we grapple with that we will not see how black people

are being systematically drained from the urban spaces. i love barack obama, i love what he represents, i love the beauty of his family, the integrity of this voice, if we love him seriously we must call him to account. when barack obama was running for president wolf blitzer asked him what would dr. king say to you and what would he recommend and he said dr. king wouldn't praise any of us. what he would do is hold us accountable according to the principles of democracy. he said change doesn't happen from the top down but from the bottom up. how are we mad as black people when we hold barack obama accountable and know the cracker resistance is deep, the far right ring, we know the vicious right thing that is racist hates him. that is even more reason for thim to stand up and love us in

public and say it is time. -- him -- it happened at the funeral for reverend clemente pickney we didn't hear pull up the boot straps. we heard unadulterated black love. that is the most beautiful thing a black president can do. reinforce the value of black life. if all black lives matter matter no black lives matter. >> we just had a sermon. all we needed was to open the doors of the church. >> collection is coming because we have books for sale. i am thankful for this inclusive and civil dialogue we had tonight. inclusive and civil dialogue on a discussion that some people belief is divisive. but it is not. you can talk about it civilly

with people who have written about it. did you enjoy the conversation first of all? [applause] >> did you enjoy the conversation? i want to thank the reverend, michael eric dyson who has his book for sale and show him love bying his books. i want to thank joy-ann reid who is the latest author o oof "fracktuc of "fracture" please support her. and the former prosecutor and professor, paul butler, he knows what he is talking about and support him with his book. and of course, i have a book as

well. thank you so much. we want to thank everybody for helping this. the best bookstore ever! you are blessed to have this bookstore in the area. politics and prose -- go home with that on your tongue. and we want to thank c-span. you will be on c-span booktv. thank you so much. we are selling books and signing them. >> if you want a book we will move out to the bookstore lobby and have books for sale out there and all of the panelist are going to stay inside. >> thank you so much.

>> you are watching booktv, non-fiction authors every weekend. television for serious readers. >> next we'll talk about common core and the adoption as a standard curriculum. >> good morning, i am jim