behind that? >> i don't know for sure. i can speculate. i know that ms. rubens had been in her job for a long time and was a little bit wore out with the whole d.c. action and wanted to get back to the basics, to an r.o. again. on kim graves come to be perfectly honest, i was in the deputy job for two years and in the first couple weeks in a new job i had discussions with the undersecretary that maybe it was time to move came from area director to an r.o. because were having problems in the eastern area. ..

that seems to be something we could fix. these are full-time positions. they were off moving to a full-time position. >> these are full-time, very demanding tough positions, but they are not at a level that they were asked before. >> okay. thank you. and is it typical for all to be

directly even when they volunteer for position, and i'm sorry you may have covered this country is about i'm curious about the direct assignment compared to volunteering. >> though, scs can be volunteer or directed. i don't believe that we've ever directed somebody inside out eba. i think that's something we need to change. i think that our ro directors, part of the problem is they remain in position for too long. i think they should be like general officers in the army where they don't spend ten, 20, 30 years at one location had become too comfortable. i don't think that is a good thing coming and that we should use our ability to move people around a little bit more often. >> think you. ms. holliday, i'm curious to me and you may or may not know the answer to this question, but we are learning that this is a practice across the government, not just at the veterans

administration. are you familiar with the practice in any other agencies and have you run into anything quite like this in the other agencies? >> i don't have experience or any data on the other federal agencies. the federal government is so large that you have to think there are some examples. >> i have nothing further to be a >> thank you very much. my question is for mr. pummill. i said in a hearing two weeks ago the va continues to have what seems to be a crisis in confidence with levels at the va. everyday it every day it seems like there's something new. we heard projects with whistleblower retaliation and now this issue of collusion among officials to line their pockets. when i go back to my district of the veterans and the taxpayers that are fearless of what's going on in the agency. constituents work hard for their money into play by the rules and

they want this nonsense to stop so sitting here thinking and listening to this testimony go on and on. and mr. pummill you are a retired army colonel and i appreciate your service. but i think and i guess i want to know what do you think the effect of the troops would be if the commander did the rules to his or her own benefit and then what does it do to the team, what does it do to the troops and what would it do in your former life and looking at the situation right now? >> it's devastating that they are not held accountable at the same level as the lowest person in the organization. >> i would agree with that and also say you are from a premier business of the advanced management program and if they took the case study study today peace professors and sent to their students look at the real-time real-life disaster we have on our hands. we long for the day for this organization to be healthy but it's not.

what would those school professors look at this case what would they say how would you fix this? >> i'm doing an interview with the magazine in the next couple of weeks to discuss why somebody would work as a public servant and one of the discussions is how we manage a workforce that we can't in the private sector eliminate somebody or move somebody or disciplined whenever you need to, that we have such a complex set of rules and it's hard and it's tough. the rules are there but we have to work through them. >> both of us worked on the va reform bill us october. they moved the thing through and one of the things the chair man talked about virtually every time we meet is the way for the senior level executives to be fired to be disciplined to be fired to bear the brunt of transparency and accountability to the american people but yet

every time folks that come in and we ask the question how many people have been fired in this place the answer may have gone for maybe two, maybe three, maybe they could give the name of someone fired. and i agree to your point in this pummill teen magazines do you need more legislative action to be able to discipline and fire people who are not accountable and transparent and who have committed a different kind of egregious activity you need a authority to do that? >> we personally need to weigh out the wall to see how that works. one of the problems we have in the past as i personally disciplined senior executives in my current position with the intent of firing them and they re-sign or retire before i can do that. under this new law, that isn't possible. it goes to click. so i think we play it out and see how it goes. >> to your point, sorry for the introduction, to your point that's what the people in my district have watched on tv.

they watched the news reports where people have sat in the scary hearings and debate been subpoenaed to find out the truth and nothing but the truth and then we find out they end up with unbelievable retirement settlements. they are gone and they will never answer a question and other times they will never answer a question. oh and then people in my district retired veterans look at that and it is absolutely demoralizing as it would have been to the troops as well and to the students demoralizing to people in my district to veterans and i guess my final question is in that environment, how in the world while the va ever hired the doctors, the nursing professionals and the administrators to run an agency that we here with these folks, how in the world can they ever attract the kind of employee they need to make this a healthy organization and provide provided a service to veterans deserve? >> i think we can do it. the secretary is on track with

the va with putting the veteran first in everything they do. there's good people out there that want to work for the government and take care of veterans. two of them are at the table with me. they are sharp guys that have done a good job that but have given up a lot to take care of veterans. there's a lot of people that want to do it we just have to show the commitment that we are going to hold people accountable and we want to do the right thing and they will work with us. >> thank you very much you are recognized. >> thank you mr. chairman. i would have to associate myself once again where we are focusing on leadership or issues with it instead of focusing on the veterans and what i would like to chat about his reform and workplace and we all know leadership is directly linked to veterans care. we can hire the best doctors in the world and best environment. it's going to impact veterans care. i think there's great questions

coming from the american people when i could have breakfast folks ask me what i'm going to ask all of you and i think the good news is there's a simultaneous account accountability piece in the department of justice and i think at that point in time apv will find out more about until we get there what i want to know dealing with there is as ms. graves is dealing with her own personal situation who is managing the day-to-day operations at the st. paul regional office? a >> we had a discussion after i talked on the 31st of october and he informed me that he is going to take the proposed action against both ms. rubén and ms. graves. we looked at minnesota and determined the deputy in minnesota is very strong and is more than capable of the position if for example she's unable to fill the position we

are going to be okay. >> so you give me your assurances that is not a single veteran that has been in any way negatively impacted by ms. graves's situation. >> we will do everything we can to make sure that doesn't happen. one of my concerns obviously is going to be when we take action against senior people as the congresswoman over here said, that's their leader there is an impact on the office. my job is to make sure the office stays motivated and they understand we are doing the right thing. we are not doing this arbitrarily. it's for the country, it's for veterans and for them to soldier up and do their job. >> i appreciate that because i'm concerned with the veterans and employees that are going to work and doing it every day and i think they soldier on and debate moveon but i'm going to type two things together. i hear you correctly correctly you said ms. graves was moved to

st. paul because she wasn't performing to the standard in the previous position? >> she wasn't moved to minneapolis because she wasn't performing to standard. i just felt in my position as the deputy of our area directors in the eastern area which was her area -- >> how would you rate the leadership? >> excellent. i bring that up because i would say from my constituents and what the va senate has been extensive they couldn't have been happier as a you talk about the employees and their leaders and i would suggest the leader was mr. waller and my question is when the decisions are made who's looking at the second and third degree affect that's happening on the workforce. and so the questions start to be asked and i will close with this commend mr. mckenrick led into this and brought up the question about the press.

the press is a critical responsibility responsibility in the dock or see as all of you know but i can tell you trying to pull information out of you all the have to do is they can't get a straight answer, they don't know what's going on, they are asking the veterans questions, so you are right that the information when there is a vacuum this information will billets but i would suggest don't expect in this environment to get the benefit of the doubt on anything. that's just simply the reality. what i'm suggesting to all of you is what can we do to have these senior leaders who know what's going on working with officials can't you let them get out there without having to clear it all the way. knocking on doors in tv. just so you know i was supposed to retire november of this year and the secretary asked me to be

the undersecretary. i told him i would stay as long as he needed me. i will give them more range and i want them to engage with the press and with their local legislators. >> i think that it would be in the best interest of transparency veterans trust and fixing it to have a boost of confidence and this is the senior executive given the authority to talk to people and reassure them because the minute this gets held back the public thinks the worst as you are not given the benefit of the doubt, so i appreciate that offer and i yield back. >> thank you mr. chairman for calling this hearing and trying to get to the bottom of it. i appreciate the line of questions as well. i believe mr. pummill made a statement to the extent that it

would restate that are explained a little bit more use it of it is virtually impossible to fight your end ;-). can you clarify and explain that although the tour from your experience? i've been with the va for five years and the civil servants have safeguards, so the process of taking care of a problem employee takes an incredible amount of documentation and oversight and taxpayer dollars and somebody in the organization coming back and saying you missed a step reinstate the person i find it hard to impossible to navigate through.

>> how would you describe that process that we are moving or removing employees that are not doing their job? >> -- learned about it in the last couple of weeks. i think it's going to work. i think it's the right decision. i have been told chairman miller and senator blumenthal at a meeting at the town hall debate it with us a while back that i thought should be governmentwide and not just one that departed i don't think that's fair. it puts a lot of pressure on us but i understand it's the veterans committee and not the whole government. >> we tend to hear that from the office. it's where the employee will give a little more insight like

you have so i appreciate your honesty as well and compared to a couple of them if they are soon-to-be employees certainly disappointed they were not willing to share their experience we try to improve the agency. before you did testify, did you have any conversations with superiors above you about what he would say at this particular hearing? suspect the only conversations i had was with the secretary. they told me to be honest told the truth to the committee and to please relate to this committee that they are absolutely committed to turning the culture of the va around to holding people accountable and to making it better in centric -- veteran centric. he is responsible for posting all of the conduct and to assure the committee that he's moving he is moving forward with deliberate speed.

>> who made the decision to not testify and require a subpoena for you to come and the other folks? >> i wish i knew, congressman. >> who made the choice for you? it was through a complex chain of command of that in order to ensure the due process of the individuals involved in this case that it was inappropriate for us to testify at the time. >> who told you you could not testify? >> i don't know. probably a couple people. >> i'm a bubble is used. someone told you you couldn't testify and was compelled by subpoena. someone told you you couldn't justify could testify today is a good and you don't know who it was? >> i don't know who it was -- i know who it was but it would be one of the ladies that works in our department said she's pretty

low-level would be talking to legal. so i don't want to put it on her. it's not her decision either she just came to me and said you guys are not going to be able to do this. and of course i received tremendous subpoena on the way to atlanta which i immediately e-mailed that i would be present >> absolutely. that's called a subpoena but i was trying to understand who was telling you and if we are going to try to clear this up and it sounds to me it's not just to poor performing employees we are clearly gaining the system we are talking about folks above you that said we said we don't want you to tell us the truth to suit. >> i don't believe anybody was gaming the system i think they were honestly trying to make sure under the new accountability act that they didn't screw it up, but they got

the proposed punishments out and that they did the right things and i think, i hate to say thanks but i don't delete that they wanted us to start testify in and testifying and saying things that would mess up the process because this is the first time we've used this process. >> and you're talking about the response to the invitation to testify and the refusal of five employees to do that unless a subpoena was issued but you do agree that with the conclusion of the report that they were gaming the system as two employees. >> the only report i have seen is the public report. i have not seen any of the actual testimony. none of that has been released. >> do you agree with that report? >> i have complete confidence. they've looked at everything and and it's a belief that they've done the right thing i back them up 100%.

>> thank you. i wanted to see if i could summarize in a simple way some of the conclusions that are drawn in your report. two senior officials use their positions to forceout the regional office directors who are in regional offices that the senior officials want to occupy st. paul in philadelphia and then are compensated for their move as a figure that most of us find exorbitant even though they do not need that compensation in order they've already volunteered for that move to philadelphia and to st. paul. do i have it basically right clicks a >> basically yes. >> so mr. pummill, do you disagree with that? >> i don't disagree but i have not seen any of the evidence.

>> so, one aspect of this seems to be in disagreement tonight is whether mr. mckenrick was forced out of philadelphia to la. do you disagree with the conclusion that that seems to be the case and may be forced out is the wrong word but was pressured to move from a position he wanted it to stake him his family and his kids were there and he is quoted as saying he wasn't jumping up and down to do this. do you agree he was pressured out the >> i would have to see both of the testimonies. >> for what are they being punished? this committee has seen more evidence that i have. i've only seen the public report. and that's not evidence.

i've only seen my own testimony. nothing has been released to me. i have confidence the secretary have prepared a punishment and whatever the punishment is i assume it is the punishment because they have all the evidence. the common law referrals have been made and are connected to what i just described. whether they will accept or prosecute. then it moves to the department to take their administrative action such as with mr. pummill is talking about with the deputy secretary.

your report in the agreement with all 12 of them some of them had a deadline of saturday october 31 and you mentioned that for two of them. they have fulfilled that and they are going through the due process related to that. what about the others to recoup expenses paid to his graves and ms. rubin. have you sent a bill to recoup that money? >> i haven't sent a bill, mr. congressman. >> that was supposed to happen by october 31 to do you know if that has fulfilled? the va has to lay out the evidence and determine the extent to which any individual but have to pay back the funds. the full amount of the cost in the recommendations.

the decision will have to be with the department as they wait out all the evidence to determine the appropriateness. some of it goes to the program to buy the house. she received approximately 33,000. >> due to the actions if we believe what is before us the taxpayer is out of that amount. spec i believe the government needs to be made whole since the true the conclusion that ms. rubin and ms. graves misused their positions. >> we have a very ambitious goal and deadline for reducing the backlog of claims and i first want to commend you, the two gentlemen that were with you and everyone that worked on this to make extraordinary gains towards reducing the wait times.

has this debacle and undersecretary started down has that in any way impeded the progress towards achieving that goal? >> yes it has. >> can you explain? >> yes because when anybody has been in the military there is an impact on the organization and to pretend there wasn't is silly. there was an impact. there was a downturn in claims for about four or five days after people got past. the undersecretary is gone for whatever reason and we are back on track. they picked it back up again as of last wednesday and they were hit with over 5,000 claims a day. >> can you tell us now or when will you be able to tell us the goal and deadline? >> we will by the end of the calendar year around christmas time we are still going to be between 70 to 80,000 claims and

what we consider the backlog which is over 125 days. that as far as getting to zero, we will never get 20. there will always be veterans because of the complexity of the cases a veteran exposed to nuclear radiation or something like that but you can't do do that in 125 days but we are committed to get that number down as low as possible and i personally think a case that that focusing getting dumped getting dumped 125 days proving about quality but none of that means anything if the veterans don't trust or believe us. if they don't believe our numbers so how do we gain the trust and confidence not just of the american people but of the veterans and this committee? we have to get the trust so we can show you here's the number of days because we are using the tax payer dollars to the best affordability and we are going in the right direction to take care of the veterans.

>> thank you mr. chairman and the witnesses for being here. i will go to you first. you have said some statements tonight about accountability they brought the issue up and from the veterans is the lack of accountability and the lack of trust in the va system. so just personally i find it incredulous that we have to subpoena witnesses to testify when they are asked to do so. going back to the question i will ask you a direct question you said there was a lady that told you that you could not or will you not reveal the name of? stack christina.

>> and that's all i ask. >> she's just a clerk -- >> we don't want to bring her into it we just want to make sure we have an open dialogue and that there are no even in un -- nu endo. on that question i will ask each of you and i realized that mr. waller and mr. mckenrick you've done a tremendous job for the va and the system but have any of you been interviewed or questioned by federal agents on this ig report? i consider them to be an agent if that's what you're asking me regarding this report be interviewed me twice on the record i believe one other time we had extensive dialogue.

>> mr. pummill, let's go back to the baltimore application process k. i think we were told there were 131 applicants have applied to the job. or they're any of them interviewed or questioned them is there any ability to take this job? >> i don't know, congressman. >> were you aware that mr. rubin had family in philadelphia? do you think that influenced her decision to move you from los angeles to be closer to her family backs to become? >> i do not believe that it is her decision to move me to los angeles was the chief of staff. >> and did you read the report? you understand the implication of the possible misuse of her position to move into that

position and possibly moves you to the la? it was involved in the different steps of the multiple area directors with ms. rubin at the office of the field operations for the undersecretary as well as the chief of staff and others we've talked about for the west coast and i didn't see at the same way that they saw it. >> and we understand the cost of living as he alluded to is much higher. what is your reimbursement for the expenses? >> ibb they are listed in the report. >> do you know the figures themselves? >> i was given a relocation incentive. $20,000. >> and what was yours? >> my relocation was 40,000.

>> who at the va is responsible for approving the $280,000 for the 129,000 for ms. graves? >> the chief of staff of the va is the approval authority for t. i don't think they would approve an exact amount that approves the appraisal for the house and all that kind. i don't think they would know that in advance. aside from the investigation we've been talking about all night, what investigations, other investigations may have gone on internally within the va. >> i'm sorry. other than the inspector general investigation which was done as a result of this committee requesting it, what kind of investigation has been initiated

internally? >> whenever a case like this comes up, we initiate what's called and aib which is an internal investigation that we attempt to do in the va but since the new secretary is archived, he set up an office of accountability where he's brought in a team and if they take that investigation from us now into handle it make sure that it's done fairly throughout the va. >> when was that initiated? >> i don't know if there was one in this instance. i would have to take that up. >> gear but there was an investigation initiated internally? >> i don't know if there was an aib. i know the evidence was turned over to the department to be reviewed by the general counsel in the office of accountability and review and that they were doing that review. >> do you have any information

as to anyone else being the target of an investigation other than ms. rubin and his graves? >> i believe there is one other example of potential misuse with a recruitment bonus relocation of its being handled separately. >> any reason why there isn't anyone being the target any one being the target of an investigation for signing off of these exorbitant numbers? >> i don't think the investigation was limited to the individuals that dot the payouts. iv leave everybody in the entire chain of command is under the investigation. >> to what level?

>> also way up to the undersecretary. that was in the report. >> so there may be another investigation that was done internally that you don't know about? >> i don't bb there was. i just think the office of accountability looks at it and of course they've turned over to the justice department but that's all that i'm aware of right now. >> and you said earlier its your opinion they should be held accountable to the congress correct? we should be held accountable to the congress and everybody. if we are going to spend taxpayer dollars to take care of veterans, we have to be accountable, so they are the target of these investigations but it was signed off on by the chief of staff. what kind of accountability is being provided other than the target of your investigation? it goes up to the top of the va.

>> i don't belief that that program or the amount of the program are really under investigation. i think this is danny pummill speaking of investigation is whether or not people covered to have people removed from the positions of a could take positions. this program is a federal wide government programs that used for scs throughout the government. the prices we pay are not exorbitant. they are prices that are paid all over. i personally think it's too much but we shouldn't be spending that kind of money in the federal government, but this is a legal legitimate program that's available to everybody in the federal government. >> going one step further beyond the money coming coming you said that mr. waller did an excellent job in st. paul, correct? and ms. graves is coming from a setting where it was underperforming. so doesn't it seem like -- i mean, there's a lot of different examples the committee hears

about where if it's not broken, break it and if it is broken, then cover it up. i mean, this committee has heard hospital construction costs several hundred dollars over budget and we are being told here that they are operating off an artificial budget. one colleague asking when to give a timeline and are there actually budgets here we are on another issue and they are the targets of the investigation there is evidence whatsoever that anyone else above her in the chain of command but there is any type of accountability being pursued i would offer that account ability to congress and the american public. your testimony wasn't provided to the chairman as he requested and that's why you are only here because of a subpoena and that

accountability still is desperately in need and that's why we're meeting tonight and i appreciate the chairman for having this important hearing and i yield back. >> mr. costello you are recognized. >> i have questions for everybody if i can get to them. i will start with ms. halliday. may 27, 2014 ms. graves come into this is the third one down, there were e-mail correspondence regarding the relocation. okay, boss it looks like and coming home as matt welch is one of the options i went with the most expedient and ms. graves applied. have they talked about dates, question and she responded i can't be in the middle of his move so you may want to check with willie mr. clark. at this time mr. clark was the western area director. first question here is how does mr. clark as a western area director sort of become if you

know the person to which be maneuvering for ms. rubin to get the job how did he become such a central figure, was that of ms. rubin or did someone also signed into that position? >> i believe that was based on his position as the western area director. when i look at that, i believe that ms. rubin once she identified to the general she wanted the philadelphia position she knew to recuse or so from everything. could the western area includes philadelphia? >> at the eastern area. >> but we are talking about philadelphia. >> you are talking about mckenrick going out to la. >> so i misread this. this is actually not ms. rubin's response.

okay. so here is my next follow-up question to that. mr. clark's involvement in charging in philadelphia did you look into that at all in terms of the charging letter for philadelphia didn't include ms. rubin's unseemliness. but did you evaluate that any further in terms of there being any relationship between this rubin and mr. clark? >> no. >> you didn't find that or -- >> as far as mr. clark's roll with the aib in philadelphia, we did not do any. that was a management function for the va to determine the extent of any cold ability of staff based on the evidence that we've provided over. the ig role would be to give the

reports efficient time and corrective action and time to take hold and go in and look at the recommendations that do the follow-up to say are the conditions corrected. so it's a little bit different. >> mr. mckenrick, did you have an opportunity to review the report and even more specifically, the recommendations made by philadelphia if you recall there's about 35 recommendations that she then followed up and said 32 out of 35 were corrected or addressed. >> i did review the report of philadelphia. >> do you have an opinion on the report? >> i don't know what ms. rubin did about all those issues but i just struggled with the initial

aspect of how the ig did an investigative process in philadelphia. >> that's what i was getting at. did you find that report of the statements about the conditions of the philadelphia regional office to be far-reaching, far critical and accurate? >> i found them in the parts i could associate with having been there not knowing what she had done after we left in particular they were accurate with some of the struggles. all the other things we were working on getting that i struggle to hear is that fairness which is listed in the standards. they look for the wholesome communication in which we work with the ig and they are there

to help make us better and to identify things we need to work on. but there's room to to talk to tell the story of the things that we did do, the collaborative efforts that were done, the way that we redid some of the organizations to get more efficient. >> you are directing your consternation more at the ig van ms. rubin is what i'm gathering. >> i think that she was a great leader and a great work. >> and i represent the district right near there into the concern as i have and today we read about the number of dna and leave unpaid leave. it's a stain on the credibility of any improvements have been made. i think that we summarize both the conclusions are about what ms. rubin did and it's difficult for those that use the facility that are looking for

improvements to be able to say i delete the poll that has happened, all that good reform has been made when you have the person there who stored all to do what she did. one last question if i can for mr. pummill. all positions appear to have been the critical needs standard is the standard you need in order to use the relocation program is that correct? >> it is correct the standards you are supposed to use. all of the ro directors, 56 ro are critical needs because there they are so important. and i absolutely added we have to do a better job. that's why everything is on hold if we are looking at the entire process. >> ms. halliday would you like to respond to mr. mckenrick's statement just a minute ago? >> yes i would. at the philadelphia we received

over 200 allegations of problems dealing with the data manipulation, tinkering with the numbers from a poor performance, mismanagement of with team data to be balanced to look at that that as we could look at all 200 of these allegations. we took all the critical processes that we found to try to leave it to an efficient operation and we evaluated those. i don't think that we needed to speak to him i think that we needed to look at the underlying process because it was very difficult to determine if someone had an agenda and wanted us to come to some conclusion. we did much more work than we have to do to make sure that we got the message. they had problems in the pension management center and service

center. everywhere we looked we had problems, so i do take some offense saying that we needed to talk to mr. mckenrick and the team entered on june 19, 2014 and worked from that point on. but looking at the evidence and the process and been doing interviews of all the people that are doing the work in the trenches was more than enough to provide an accurate picture. >> i just want to say this committee went to philadelphia and we had a hearing and in fact the hearing that we have on that issue they came to this

committee and they wanted us to know that it was more than one side. obviously there were problems in philadelphia and of course there were problems in philadelphia for a very long time but i agree that we should have also pointed out the strengths and weaknesses that we existed in philadelphia. >> it was a closed-door meeting with employees. it wasn't a full hearing of this committee. >> my question is for mr. waller would what have been your employees reactions to the secretary's position as the baltimore director's job would suck out the last ounce of blood of whomever took a job in the

source of the report on page 23? >> i would say that our employees at the baltimore regional office many of them extremely dedicated to service. upon hearing the secretary's comments there were few that took it very disappointing and that was certainly part of my conversation during the town hall back to the office to speak to the entire staff and let them know that this information or information that was being shared with not define who they were but they needed to know that i was there to help lead them through this time

challenging the changes that move forward. >> in your interview you were quoted as saying that it may be time to come to congress and it's time not to have a ro in every state. can you explain that? >> yes i can. we have come to the time with our automation and the systems that we have bared their needs to be a location in every state state may be a lot of relocation of multiple locations where veterans can do a kiosk or store front for something where they can go in and have a cup of coffee and get a glass of juice as they have about my benefits where can i get medical care i'm having a problem with my claim

that the claims can be done anywhere in the united states and if we were to centralize them and bring them into different locations we can put experts on different types of claims. we are not there yet and it's a little bit out of context my statement because we still don't have enough automation where i would be comfortable not having claims representatives in every state representing the people in that state but i think we are getting closer to the point where we need to start looking at what is the best bang for the taxpayers and how do we use the national treasure to support veterans, and it may not be that we have a claims office, a large claims office in every state. that's something we have to look at. >> thank you mr. chairman and i yield back. >> thank you. i have a list of questions i would have liked to ask if they

were here. one of those is the concerns that i have posed this question and i want to get this on the record is there anything that you would like to say to apologize to the american veterans and taxpayers in regards to your alleged behavior that is outlined in this report? but well within the legal right to they took the fifth. you have said that we have got to and i agree we've got to do something to bring back the va and bring back the trust. you have superiors to have to answer to and if an underling of

yours kept coming up and giving false information or refused to give information than you would be put in a situation you have to answer to your superiors. mine are the american taxpayers and people of the top district. and since i've been on this committee we have requested they have to subpoena information and they have to subpoena people to come before us who should automatically come with. but yet, you agree why would go you made the statement you thought you should have probably come but you have to answer to your superiors is that correct? or you are advised not to come. >> do you see why the american people first off if you like

they are being lied to? and one of our other members said that you are gaming the system. its public perception that's the case with the va. and i believe that a majority of the people there are trying to provide the best possible service for our veterans. let me also tell you that the american people don't trust the administration and many people that are out to serve themselves rather than the veterans can you give me the answer i am supposed to give to them, those people that have asked me how do we straighten the va out? >> all my friends are veterans, my friends are all veterans and every time i come home they want

to take me up behind the woodshed and beat me up because of how they perceive the va. i can tell you we've got a whole bunch of people that are dedicated and care for the job if they've been a mandatory overtime the last two years. they are doing the right things but as i i told the chairman before, that doesn't matter if the perception of the american people and the veterans that we are not honest if we are not doing our job. i feel more confident now than any time in the va that is the leadership of the secretary that we are going in the right direction and they are committed to holding people accountable. i don't want to play games. i want to take care of veterans. i don't want to say i'm not going to come to this article to come to this stuff. i want to do the right thing. so, somehow we have to figure that out. i know my bosses agree we have to stop this. we have to move forward and take

care of veterans. we are a bureaucracy. we are always going to make mistakes. we are never going to be perfect. anyone that says we are perfect that isn't true but how do we do the best in the resources we've got to take care of the veterans? for >> one thing let me tell you that i think we should do is win this committee because they are supposed to be the voice of the people asking for information coming forthright and quickly and give the information necessary we are not out to destroy you we are out to help because we believe the job you do is a very good job that should be done for the betterment of the veterans. we want to help you do that but we can't do that if we are always looking like it's keep that from them or hide from them that's advice i would like to give you this evening. >> mrs. halliday, this incentive

package to cover moving expenses is that relegated to the veterans administration or civil service and the government it's available to all the agencies that choose to use it. >> it seems to me that when i look at the va when there's corruption it's almost like when there's corruption, there is money. this needs to be reined in this notion someone could legitimately -- what we are giving us it wasn't much of because they forced someone out of the current position but nobody is arguing that its

274,000 around $274,000 that the standard criteria which is outrageous so it's no wonder people are doing what they are doing and we discussed earlier the relocation allowance for the most senior officer in the military is $4,514.29. that's for a four-star flight officer. i would be the common bond of the united states marine corps so we give these outsized incentives or compensation packages that are outrageous and we wonder why there's not corruption tied to it when

people are forced to move out and collect these incredible amounts of money. it's just like in the appointment leadtime scandal. the appointment leadtime scandal was money. you could earn a cash bonus by bringing down the wait time. call the veterans administration and deny them health care and make them look like they are bringing the weightless down. mr. pummill you were a troll in the military. good people are promoted.

bad people are promoted and the only tax incentives are there are a part of the retention pay but when we recognize good behavior, people are promoted. in the va system, we are throwing hundreds of millions of dollars a year into these cash bonuses creating this corrupt system. there are good people in the veterans administration to believe what they are doing and want to do a good job and often times those are the people that come forward with these incredible problems and they make those problems public and they are the people retaliated against by the leadership of the veterans administration.

and i don't see the leadership from the white house or the current secretary. he is a placeholder. everything is trying to be swept under the carpet. it's only when the problems got so bad that its public awareness that action is reluctantly taken. the situation in colorado with over a billion dollars in cost overruns, nobody's been disciplined for it. nobody's been visited for it. unbelievably extraordinary. if these things had been in the united states military, you know that people would be court-martialed, you know that people would be released and because of the military your job is not a property right and thank god the united states military doesn't hold the values of leadership in the va if we can say one good thing tonight

that americans can feel safe and that we have to clean up the va. but the president has to care. the secretary has to care, and i don't see that. >> thank you. i'm going to yield for some final questions and then i will close. ..

we are finally getting the benefit office on track in florida. now, you was interrupted when he was beginning to get your thoughts on the number of benefits that you all offer. and someone said, well, we don't care that we had problems with 14, but you were saying we serve how many. can you finish your thoughts on that area? i want to give you a chance to tell your side of what we are doing, because there is some good things that we are doing. we just need to be doing more. >> yes, congresswoman. first of all, it would never in my decision to shut down any officers. that i could never make that call. i just gave my opinion. >> i understand what your opinion carries weight.

>> just to put it in a nutshell, we did claims for 1.4 million veterans this year. that's more than we've ever done before. that's good but we still need to do better. we are paying more money to more veterans faster with higher quality than we ever have before, but now we've got to show the american people that our numbers are real and that there's honesty and truth behind those numbers. we have an incredible workforce at the va that work really, really hard. we try hard to get the right people in the right place to do the right jobs. i really believed, i actually understood the comments about the military and how we work in a military. i believe the secretary of the dep secretary have the best interest of the and veterans that hard. they want change. they want accountability they are pushing towards there. i will back them.

as long as i'm in this position, it could be a day, you, i don't know. i will stay until they don't need me. you have my commitment to uphold the people in vba accountable and i will be accountable to this committee. >> what was your comment about the two gentlemen to you right into your left? you said you think you got the best people in the position for those too complicated offices speak as yes, congresswoman. a lot of people say you talk antoine out of minnesota's -- >> nice place. >> doing a great job. the reason we took them out of there with you think a wonderful job. he got the organization squared away, took care of the veterans, built a team, got the unit under control and a couple local committee working. they all respect him highly. everything is going so well there we knew we could put somebody else in, they could take care of it. we will make sure doesn' it doet drop. now going to take antoine's expertise and put someplace else

that i need, and, unfortunately, he is so good i'm going to use them to raise another position. mac at the same kind of skills. he comes across how he talks. we needed a leader in l.a. he is a leader. these changing things in l.a. in a couple more years whoever takes my place will be trying to move mac someplace else because they have a leadership problem. >> i can tell that. i have one quick question for you. you mentioned that it was 23 or so that you did not agree with the ig's report. do we have a copy of that, or is that something that, i know i haven't seen it. >> it was the interim report that the ig put out, and unchallenged in that most reports become to us with a track and we go to him about

what we saw, what they saw, what happened on the ground. that didn't happen you. it was released to the press or congress first, and we itemized 22424 discrepancies. some were acting is that they thought this, we thought that a we did have a chance to edit internally. i want a relationship with the ig. i want to make it better for us and want the truth to come out. and for it to be accurate at all of the agency, this is what it is, this is how we getting added and this is where we are going to go with it. >> one last statement, question. you mentioned that, i want to figure out how we move forward and make a better, and part of the problem is that constant discussion of the appraisal value offered, or avo. that is not the va program. that is a program that comes from my committee on transportation. it comes from, and so it's an

agencywide program, and if we need to change it then we need to change it, not just for va, but for all of the 13 agencies. and i'm so that when you all move military people that you all just give them $4000. they are being cheated. because clearly if you got to sell your home and you got to relocate, it is a problem. but, of course, i think that the way that this program is set up, we really do need to take a look at it. because it seems as if they are paying too much, they're getting too praised. and i understand california is different from minnesota maybe, nothing personal, but we definitely need to look at the program and see how we can correct it or put some, yes, sir, you wanted to respond to that? >> i think one of the things were not talking but here is the ses of their salary and then

there's what we call pay for performance. i'm all about pay-for-performance. i studied it in graduate school as a way to go in keeping the lights clear that it is true performance determines any bonus. but the military gets locality. they get adjustments based on california's more expensive than idle or where ever you are at. the ses corps in america does not get that. you get your base salary, period. >> so those are all of the facts that we need to consider. and i really think that part of the problem that you all have hiring in the va and relocating in the va has something to do with the salaries. and, of course, has something to do with congress and how we gone down and don't talk about the good things that you all do -- dumbed down -- there are problems in every agency. there are problems in the congress and we just have to do the army motto. one team, one fight. we are all fighting for the

veterans. i yield back the balance of my time. >> think very much. mr. pummill, just to clarify and for the record, the avo program, is it suspended or is it canceled? >> it is a suspended. >> okay, because that's not the direction that i actually got. >> i believe it's a suspended. i can check and double call your office first thing tomorrow morning. i believe it suspended until it is completely, they look at everything. they check everything out and they find whether or not we can use that and use of proper weight before they do anything with it. >> mr. mckenrick, i would go back and confirm. is it your testimony that you never contacted the sector's office in any way to express a desire to get back to philadelphia or to the east coast? >> that is correct. by the secretary's office i do need to clarify that i did have a process with the chief of

staff who was in the secretary's office, and i did respond to this letter with my preferences, and he did respond with a reassignment. >> but after the reassignment you never asked to come back? >> i did not. >> okay spent i am committed to where i am. >> and i understand that. i think it's a bit further testimony tonight that you ago where you are told to go. i appreciate the diligence with which you approach your job. mr. waller, the exact same thing. to be sent to an office where an undersecretary would say that the lifeblood would be sucked out of you if you went there. you know, that's a testimony in itself that you would be willing to go there. and again we thank you both. mr. waller, as i understand it, it's your testimony that she did feel pressured to make the move to baltimore, is that correct?

>> that is correct, chairman. >> and mr. mckenrick, it's been a little difficult tonight. you keep bringing up the directed move, but you basically were glad to go to l.a. >> i'm glad to do this mission, chairman of the it was alaska i would be there. its commitment. i thank my children for being part of that selfless service. that's army corps values. >> i think if you were given any mission, you would take that mission, is that not correct? >> chairmen come if you're talking about a job here in the house, i would think twice spinning nobody is offering a job announced that you need to stay right where you are in l.a. ms. halliday, i push it with the ig does. we been crosswise before. -- i appreciate. vista mckenrick brought up a very interesting dichotomy where the va office of inspector

general goes back and forth and negotiates with the va as to the final report. i don't understand how that process default, but obviously it has over the years. so i guess that's what it's very easy once the report comes out, the department signs off with all the recommendations because they already knew what the recommendations are going to be before they got a copy of the report. i will say i appreciate the area now where you put into the report suggestions that had been made by the va. i think it's important if you accept him or you don't accept them. i think that discussion is very important for us to have. again, this hearing tonight was only held because people would not come to testify at the hearing that we held two weeks ago. i do not believe that mr. waller or mr. mckenrick, you would

not have come if somebody said don't come. i think he would have been here. and we had to subpoena you in order to get you to come here. mr. pummill, you obviously were subpoenaed because ms. hickey left her position, and i suspect that we may invite her to appear before us at a later date, but with that if there are no further questions, we are now in recess. [inaudible conversations] >> the veterans day national ceremony will be held wednesday at arlington national cemetery. assembly begins at 11 a.m. eastern with a replay of the two of the unknown soldier followed by a national observance program hosted by the department of veterans affairs and the mobile

amphitheater. see the entire event live on c-span. >> tonight on the communicator's will discuss cybersecurity threats facing the u.s. and other countries. james lewis wrote the senate of the national states is guest and thoughts are with the u.s. is doing to avoid attacks by china and russia. also cybersecurity legislation passed by the house and senate are kind of program he is joined by tim starks, cybersecurity reporter for politico. >> dhs as is very grand mission to defend the nation cyberspace but they have neither authority or resources so that would be the thing to change. they need to think about critical infrastructure here again the bill in 2012 with a debt with critical infrastructure. probably not the right way, and you saw the obama and mr. should put out an executive order in

2013 to impose very light requirements on critical infrastructure to protect their network. congress needs to go back and ask if that's enough. >> watch "the communicators" tonight at eight eastern on c-span2. >> labor secretary thomas perez discuss job training, workers rights and the economy at an event hosted by the "national journal." he outlined workforce initiatives and the resources needed to contest in workers. this is one hour. >> good morning. i'm like drew, associate after a fashion show i'm to welcome to the "national journal"'s conversation with your secretary of labor. will begin a couple of businesses of light housekeeping, another reminder to please silence your phones but to keep them out to encourage your involvement the associate meeting using the

hashtag nj conversation. secondly, please use the microphones on stands around the room or you may submit your question via twitter at any point in the program using hashtag asknj. if you're asking a question live in the room please do tell us your name as well as the name of eaur organization.oom, pl this morning go inside withll u national apprenticeship week, labor secretary thomas perez will offer remarks and join steve clemons, washington editor organition. "national journal" and the atlantic for a moderate interview. but a special export topics ranging from skills training for the modern workplace and workers rights to collaborate with employers to grow the american will economy. spent please welcome the omy. honorable thomas perez, the secretary of labor. welco [applause]

>> good morning. it's great to be your. thank you for hosting this event, and it's an honor to be here with all of you end with folks out there in the hsting out there in thetalk about what we're doing in the obama administration to make sure we have a modern workforce the ob development system. and i think it's important when we talk about this issue toce provide context of thousand of where we were, where we've come and what we need to go. rhen the president took office the economy was emerging as you. know. and three months before the president took office, 2 million jobs were lost, and now you look at where we are with the unemployment rate, 5.1%, we're wi the middle of a longer streak ff private sector job growthth o record to the tune of 13.2 million jobs. we will know more about the lass month thies friday.he tune t the same time we've seen other progress in the depth of

the recession, roughly seven jobseekers for every job opening. now we have 1.4. you look at first time claims for unemployment and to continue to be at near historically low a levels.r but having said all that there is no one in the white house in the labor department spike in football because we know theyhoa are invincible unfinishedspikin know there ieople still can't find work. and the people are struggling to get by. too many people work a 5 50 hous workweek and getting the food at the food a 50-hour workweek and get their food at the food pantry. pe so pantry shared prosperity, making sure that this rising tide lifts all the boats and not simply the yachts is the unfinished business of this recovery. and one of the ways to do this

is investing in our people and providing the skills they need to live out their highest and best dreams. i've met with a lot of business leaders, large businesses, small businesses. i've met with workers, labor leaders, and when i talk to business leaders, i feel like, i don't know, i have the same conversation. it's a good conversation. i've heard them at beau being and seattle, hvac company in new york, a manufacturing council in wisconsin. here's what i hear. tom, i want to grow my business. and what i need is that pipeline of skilled workers. filling that pipeline has been at the very top of our agenda. and more and more we're doing it in collaboration with those employers, and it just stands to reason. if you want to help people get good jobs, it's a pretty good idea to get out there and talk to the job creators, so i think it's important, and we've done this to get rid of the old model

of workforce, which i used to call train and pray. you know, you train widget makers and pray that someone out there might be making win et makers. today's demand driven. we are responsive to the demand needs of our employers, arming people with the skills that are relevant to the opportunities that are actually available. we call that job driven training. and at the end of the day, it's a win/win. because the workforce system in essence has two clients, the workers who need the tools they need to punch their ticket to the middle class and businesses who want to grow their business and get that world class workforce to stay profitable and competitive. and so i often refer to the department of labor as match.com. we match job seekers with businesses who want to grow. this is an exciting time. we're really in the middle of a fundamental transformation in the way that we prepare people for 21st century jobs.

i often refer to this as an eisenhower moment. as you know, president eisenhower brought us the interstate highway system. and today we're embarking on a different type of infrastructure project. investing in our human capital infrastructure, constructing and modernizing that skills superhighway. the superhighway has all kinds of onramps and off ramps, where people can pick up stackable credentials. the destination is the same for everyone. a middle class job and economic stability, but there are a loot of different ways to get there. the superhighway also has dedicated lanes for people with specific needs, whether it's disconnected youth, people with disabilities, veterans, people coming out of the criminal justice system and so much more, because we believe that the economy works best and the nation is strongest when we feel the full team. this skilled superhighway is so critical lay important. there's so many aspects of that skilled superhighway that i

could spend literally hours on -- and i won't, because i look forward to talking to steve. but i do want to focus in on one onramp. and it's an area where i think there's a lot of gold to be mined. that's apprenticeship onramp. their is national apprenticeship week. there are more than 200 events happening nationwide with companies like ford, alcoa and nestle. pepperidge farms is also celebrating. not only are they known for goldfish crackers and the stuffing you have on thanksgiving, but they're also known for their apprenticeship work. so taets perfect moment to talk about the issue. but the department of labor is not just one week that's national apprenticeship week. every single week is national apprenticeship week. and i want to applaud the dedicated career professionals doing great work there, and you know why they're doing great

work? we know apprenticeship works. the average starting salary for an apprenticeship graduate is $50,000. the average he or she, and we want to make sure we say she, because all too much it's been too much he. he or she will earn more than those who didn't have an apprenticeship. it is a great strategy for recruiting and retaining top-notch workers who keep the business productive and profitable. international studies show that every dollar a company puts in apprenticeship they get nearly $1.50 back in return we need to move away from what i call the can balancization model of human resources. i go steal your talent. you steal my talent. that's called zero sum hr. we need to build the people lip

for sustained prosperity all over the country. i'm seeing inspiring examples for people for whom an apprenticeship has opened doors and windows of opportunity. when i was in san francisco about a year ago i met a guy named anthony. he went like this. he had a yellow thing in his hand and said i got the golden ticket. that's what my iew license gave me. the golden ticket to the middle class. i've done a lot of work with mayor walsh, a leader who created a pre-apprenticeship program. it takes people from some of the city's poorest neighborhoods and communities, including public housing residents, including people who've hoo involvement in the criminal justice system and prepares them for a union apprenticeship that is a springboard to the middle class. we want to make sure

apprenticeship is robust in every single zip code across this country. in los angeles i met a young woman named laday yeah who grew up in foster care. she bounced around in a few jobs and went to a job fair and signed up for a union apprenticeship in cronstruction. now she's got a great job building the new light rail system in los angeles. a system built right in her community. and it's a job providing remarkable security for herself and her three kids. and her powerful story got the attention of the first lady, and she opportunity to be her guest at last year's state of the union. and four der decades, we've see apprenticeship at work. partnering with industry, to help millions of people find

career pathways. it's their work that has given apprenticeship such an impressive return on investment. and, as they continue to innovate straight in this space painters union created a credit awarding academic institution, which is essentially a college in to itself. and several other trades are exploring a similar step. the building trades also has a pre-apprenticeship program called apprenticeship readiness. it allows students to bone up on skills and helps them qualify for apprenticeships. with an apprenticeship placement rate of 70%. we want to lay this foundation and expand apprenticeship into other areas. fields that you don't normally associate with apprenticeship.

the ceo of zurich started out as an apprentice, and guess what. there's apprenticeship program as a result of one of our grants in suburban chicago that's training people on how to be claims adjustors right here at home. it has application to every different context. and by the way, zurich is an active participant in that program, and i am very grateful. the president has set an i have ambitious bar of doubling the number of registered apprentices. and we are making progress adding more than 70,000 apprentices nationwide, nearly a 20% increase in the last two years. but we've got to do more. we want to double and diversify. that is our mantra. double and diversify, making sure that apprenticeship opportunities are available to women, to communities of color, to underserved populations and others who have struggled to navigator access the skill

superhighway. so last month, the president made a historic announcement. $175 million in grants representing the largest ever federal investment inf÷ apprenticeship. there were 46 winners throughout the country, partnerships among employers, local workforce boards, kplunts colleges and others. i was in cleveland yesterday where one of the beneficiaries will expand the aprn tisship for front line workers in public transportation. we anticipate it will create 34,000 apprenticeship positions. they are catlizing new ones. in addition to these infusions of resources, it's important as we move forward to build and fortify the apprenticeship onramp to acknowledge that we

need to affect something of a culture change. we need to build a movement that changes people's assumptions and attitudes about apprenticeship that affords this model the stature it deserves and enjoys in germany, the stature it enjoys in switzerland and else where in the u.k. and the stature that it all too frequently doesn't enjoy here. shame on us for that fact. i have too many conversations with parents who say i'm not sold on this. my kid's going to college. and you know what i tell them? apprenticeship is the other college. except without the debt. and that's rea -- reality of apprenticeship. i know of very little investment where we put a buck in and get a $27 return. as i've pointed out before, when you go into these programs, we need to break out of this

mind-set that you either go to a college track or the apprenticeship track, because it's not an either/or. it's a both, and then some. the two can and should be very integrated. i mentioned the program that we're integrated in the building trades. so you finish you are iew and you're on your way to the associate's degree. a lot of local apprenticeship programs have built that through colleges through articulation agreemen agreements. we're taking that forward with the registered apprenticeship college consortiuconsortium. it allows them to take their years of on-the-job training and convert them to a bachelor's degree at any of the member schools. so let's not set up that false

choice between continuing your education or starting your career. it's not mutually exclusive. they go hand in hand. as we take these important steps forward, there is indeed a lot we can learn and a lot we are learning from our friends from around the world. that's why i went to u.k., germany, switzerland and elsewhere. by the way, the youth unemployment rate in switzerland is 3.2%. not hard to understand why that youth unemployment rate is dramatically lower than the u.s. same thing in germany. we need to learn from those model the and take those applications. when talking to swiss employers, when they think of apprenticeship, they think of it not as a cost but as an investment, one that they expect will reap difficuvidends to the bottom line. the other big take away is the youth of the swiss apprenticeships. i talked to so many of them. some of them are going on to a wonderful career in welding.

some go on to higher ed. some become the ceo of zurich or other places. it's aeable system. there's no wrong road because of the permeability they have seen. i think we need to build a similar superhighway where it's very easy to shift lanes, take detours, explore different routes. so i'm looking forward to the conversation and the q&a. so let he just close by saying the following. we've got a remarkable opportunity. i sigh a lot of workforce folks in the audience, folks who've been spending their careers here, and i ask them, folks who are longer in the tooth than me. when i go to these -- and i will not name names, martin. those folks i ask, you know, you've been in this business for a long time. you know. how does this compare with how the world was 20 years ago in

the workforce place. and to a person, what i hear is, this is the most exciting time to be in this place, because we're part of a movement. it's not simply apprenticeship. there's an understanding. there's an alignment of forces. employers coming together with labor unions, with community colleges, with other higher eds. with faith leaders. with nonprofits, with the federal, state and local governments all working together. it's a remarkable opportunity, and it's an equally remarkable opportunity right now to build that apprenticeship onramp and to fortify it. because it's an investment in the competitiveness of our business, the strength of our economy and the potential of our people. and it has application across the economy. it offers a bright future for people who want to work with their hands as well as for those who want to pursue a career in other industries, whether it's health care, i.t., whatever. so whether your plan is to write

code, drive trucks. all of whom have expressed a success. one look in response to the question that employers often ask who don't use of the model, how can i afford to do this as an employer, but that employer said so eloquently was, how can you afford not to do it? because you have so much opportunity for growth. one of your biggest challenges is building a workforce. and i believe we're on the cusp of a game changing apprenticeship movement which is a broader part of a skilled superhighway. i love talking to people like i did this morning when i was in maryland talking to folks, some

their career pathway has been pretty linear. others have been on-ramps of offerings and get them to a number of places. all of them have a hot in their step because they see the opportunity that apprenticeship affords. they say unable to feed my family. unable to put away a little for college. i am able to help grow our economy. that's what this is about. let's make sure and let's continue to muster and marshall the bipartisan spirit and energy that exists around this issue. i'm confident we can and i look forward to the questions and comments from steve and all of you in the audience. thank you very much for your time. [applause] ♪ ♪ >> now joining secretary perez is steve clemons, washington editor at -- editor at large, the atlantic. >> thanks everybody. has anybody injured job ever had have as much energy as you do?

it's a little while because this active labor used to be the dreariest member of the cabinet. i think you've changed the. how many outages to start out, i'm interested because we talked about supercharging the apprentice program, how many of you have been or were in some way in and apprentice program yourself? i want to see much of him workplace there is a washington? any on this side? any on this side? this matters to you. i just want to come back to you a little bit later. one to ask about your expenses and look at what happened. that might be a good read of the market share, apprenticeships in the united states. i think there's just no doubt that this is beginning to catch on sort of toe in the door. we do not have an effective is putting in this and your out there as a cheerleader for the trend, why is it so hard if the results are so great?

what is the reason that the employment base seems to be seduced with money, your energy? what is stopping this becoming a kind of viral everybody does it opportunity? >> i think there's some barriers to i spent on time and secondary schools talking to guidance counselors, to superintendents, the parents. and when you see the issue of apprenticeship, all too quickly to enter his know, my kid is going to college. we've got to adjust the attitude. my monitor is a friendship is the college except without the debt. >> regarding tweet, for those of you wanting come watch a live online because we go to the audience to ask questions but if you send your questions to hashtag turn one out how to get as many of them in but tweeting that college without but that is a smart finish it. i was thinking about whether the president needs and apprentice

by jesse does have joe biden. not sure how that worked. when you are talking about that dimension a look at the $175 million you put in, if you get training wheels on the country bring us along morecambe do you create a climate that partnerships only work if they get a tax credit or do you think the logic of them begins to take over? >> i think the ecosystem is developing. look at companies like siemens which is, has a global footprint or go down to north carolina and go to a siemens facility. folks are walking around with and i am. this is not your father or your mother's oldsmobile. this is the modern landscape. the ecosystem, the makings of an ecosystem are there. what we've been doing, this is as effective as anything, is taking those leaders, building this program. the best sales job i can do for

a company that's thinkin thinkit it, they know they have a worker shortage, they know their growth potential, the best thing i can do is bring in someone from siemens or someone from buhler -- bless you. bless all of you -- and say here, talk to buhler. talk to forward. talk to this hospital system that's done it and they will make the story for you. there's been so many studies. we've got to make the business case, we got to make the attitudinal case to parents. and what we're trying to do, our grant making is designed to be catalytic. and to bring together these partnerships. that's exactly what we're seeing. we are seeking these partnerships and it's exciting to watch than in germany. >> really it's sort of a stigma attached to either

apprenticeships. i've seen in a lot of states where governors have been trying to get her workforce to embrace manufacturing. there's jobs come back in the country and you at second and third and fourth generation families that were in manufacturing, got hollowed out. with her children to spend a reticence about going back. doesn't take marketing or sort of a deeper conversation with the country so they don't look at these as vulnerable, fragile tracks where the kids will get screwed in the longer and? >> it takes government was focusing partnership. one of the things i like about this in a town where we have all too frequent hyperpartisanship's, this is not a partisan issue. governor branstad in iowa working on this. governor haley, the tax credit that they pass in south carolina that is very successful in britain companies like cbs. they take folks who were on hand if not for food stamps and even career pathways in pharmacy

tech. governor malloy in connecticut very, very strong proponent. when people start to see this and word-of-mouth is the best marketer. and i was down in north carolina and i met this kid is 23 years old. he was in, they have upmanship 2000 or it harder for 16 year old kid to get into upmanship 2000 than it is to get into harvard. fact. the thing i remember the most as he was 23 and he just bought his second after i want to introduce them to my daughter. pretty remarkable. so when it starts to get out, word of mouth is the best marketing. we are not there yet. we are seeing pockets of success but that's what the president is all in the i think this is one of those issues that's going to have staying power because of his nonpartisan. we've had meetings with the south carolina leadership, and i applaud what they're doing. i spoke to governor branstad at

the summer meeting. they are doing great stuff. marty walsh, the mayor of boston, doing great work to make sure young kids of color can get access to upmanship because he understood that historically -- apprenticeship in -- white male and wants to change that. aunties doing that. >> you did so much of this. i've been you for a long time in maryland and you just referred a bunch of governors and mayors. is there a practicality of this that works at that level that somehow gets lost as you move up? none to start and executive branch but in congress talking about these issues. the federal level with all due respect you because, doesn't seem to be a rich place where these things happen. at the governor and mayor level, with a democrat or republican he sort of see the fact that people are embracing this because this just something that is so

compelling that works better at the level speak with the workforce system, the public was forced this is a joint venture between the business community, private sector, educators, nonprofits. and the challenges confronting the d.c. metro area are different from the challenges that are confronting governor branstad and the opportunities are different but our principles of general application. you have to be demand driven. you have had partnerships that is meaningful. you have to take the job seeker where you find him or her and construct systems that accept the fact that you've got some folks coming out of jail, some folks who have a college degree and just need a little brushing up. you have veterans, et cetera, et cetera. working with those partnerships building sector strategy because of the demand needs in iowa are different from the mandate in connecticut. when you build an ecosystem and

asking the right questions that's building those partnerships, pat toomey is the best impact of what we've done at the federal level to our grant making and/or technical assistance, there are remarkable people there who have worked in local workforce. it's not an academic exercise from ivory tower. >> what are we doing with those people have been incarcerated? there's a ton of attention on that right. my colleague has been zeroing in on the. rand paul, where booker, tim's got all talking about with people coming out of presents. one, we have too many in prisons but second we don't have a system set up that history and created on-ramps into employment a great kind of an ongoing punishment for people like that. what you think is healthy we are doing to fix that problem speak with addressing the long-term issue by addressing this problem of overincarceration.

let's start building schools instead of prisons. that's been the president's approach. we've also been making sure, and this is some of the work i most excited and proud of at the department of labor is some of the partnership we've done with doj and elsewhere to make sure that people are ready to succeed when they get out of jail. the most important, one of the most important ways to prevent recidivism is make sure people have the skills and opportunity to get a job. one example is something we did our grant making. when i was in local government in montgomery county, maryland, we had a one stop in the county jail. because the vast majority of folks coming out of civilities are coming out of state and local, state, city, county facilities. by tremendous amounts. they are serving on average no more than 18 months. so we don't have one stop in the county jail.

and we had employers coming in. i talked to employers. they want someone who is a skilled welder, will show up on time and be reliable. the most prolific private employer in the state about his johns hopkins. the most prolific employer of former offenders is johns hopkins advanced at this. the return on investment is remarkable. they are employed as allied health specialist, phlebotomist, all up and down the food chain. so we actually gave out a grant. we have a competitive grant competition and roughly 25 jurisdictions are now replicating the montgomery county mall across the country and we're working with philanthropy because we have such demand. it's another example of why i love my job. because this is bipartisan. you look at the bill does just introduced in congress to address the broader issue of overincarceration, and then you look at what we're doing in this space. there's tremendous opportunity

because america works best when we feel the full think america is a nation that believes in second chance. spill any of you in human resources department? not many who want to admit it. so don't take offense by what i'm about to say, but jim is attack on to note is the cofounder of company called square with jack dorsey and discredit an ngo called launch code. they are just aching to put of entry one way or another, maybe didn't work out with their problematic hires, people who need a second chance and time strengthened their coding skills and then he tries to get him employed in sort of st. louis, miami and other places but particularly the impact has been dramatic, place about 400 the saint louis, missouri, area. his comment is the challenge in taltalked about upgrading skills one dimension but you can fool people into going down this route but if human resources

department will not take risks on the second chance people and the people that have some wobbliness in the resume, that they won't happen. is used his celebrity status as an ig entrepreneur to call ceos and to pound them to push the human resources department's to be more expansive and to try to experiment with some other patterns. i'm wondering, that's a different story than we here in the media, that we have upgraded people's skills. you can upgrade people skills and not see the employment decisions because human resources departments are more risk-averse than washington, d.c. >> welcome to examples in defense of h.r. directors, i've spent a great deal o of time wi, and they've been incredibly constructed. example number one, when we were dealing with the crisis of the long-term unemployed and we're making progress but we still work to do, the president met with a number of ceos. three or 400 companies signed a pledge to address best

practices. we worked with deloitte who built the playbook and i applaud the lord for this but here's what one ceo said. as a matter of practice they do a credit check on everyone they hire. and so what they were finding was, they would make an offer, to a credit check and guess what happens if you been unemployed for 18 months? you have some bills you couldn't pay. hewitt unconscionable choices to me. you are not morally bankrupt but you out of money. what they found was this was a filter that was prevented from hiring. so they changed it. now we are seeing many other companies that are changing those practices and we've made tremendous progress because we been able to sit down with ceos and h.r. directors to address this. in the former up into context, a movement to ban the box which is a bipartisan movement, governor

of georgia, covers ellsworth said, the city of baltimore, et cetera, that's another movement that stands for the proposition that give these folks a chance to get their foot in the door. again, i think we are seeing attitudinal changes. and i think it's a quintessential american value. we believe in second chances and i've talked to so many employers who have come who do this and they are proud of it. and it is not an act of charity. it's an act of enlightened self-interest. >> to get to that you talked about gender balance, hiring more women in a position programs, more women in general. we see this debate going on, but why women still can have it all. there's the gender issues, folks of color in which we have seen a

built in bias historically in that. you been doing a lot with doing a lot with lgbtq should get you to go to the places that hire lots of women from heaven on the board of directors committee go to places that much more inclusive, go to places with lgbtq employment, you see, there state officials to perform better, there's an economic cost to not have an inclusive workforce. why again do you think it takes the work of people like you to sell something and pushed something that the economic cost of not going towards a more enlightened inclusive direction are happening? >> first of all, in the world of false choices, the notion we do have diversity or we have confidence is one of the most textbook examples, which is frankly offensive. part of the reason it's been as low as it has when you look at

numbers is, if i were to do a survey of how folks get hired and i think this is also true for how folks get on board, the most frequent answer to that question is the informal grapevine. grapevine. >> networks. >> the informal grapevine has not been friendly for people of color, women. that is not work as well for them. so we need to move away from that informal grapevine. i'm going to argue because i know you. our kids went to school together. we belong to the same country club, and move into a world in which people are truly judged by -- >> in 2015 we are still having to fight that fight spent as ted kennedy, i guy i had the privilege of working for, civil

rights remains the unfinished business of america. and while he has not been on the earth, you know, for four or five years although he is always in my mind, i think that statement is a timeless statement. we have made tremendous progress that we don't want to echo the progress that we've made. it is undeniable that it's on the backs of people have made remarkable sacrifices but it is equally undeniable, and that's why in our world of apprenticeship we are not simply trying to grow the quantity of apprenticeship. we are trying to change the face of apprenticeship. because zip code should never determine destiny and our country. and when you see folks are getting into these apprenticeship programs, they're punching their ticket to middle-class. i want to make sure that if you live in the heart of boston we live in the heart of baltimore that share the same opportunities as folks elsewhere had.

>> one of the reasons why i like the reasons why like a friendship so much is because it gets to the back of something that's been evolving, there's a tension between learning and credentials. the tradition almost guarantees learning but it brings up issues of portable credentials. when i talk to the ceo of linked entities among the biggest there's we need to make, it plays like linkedin, how did you convey and they found lots of unique ways for people to do that. how to make a dent in detroit which is a stress labor market and move into the front? so i should look into it as the "wizard of oz" but the labor world what do you think -- >> i'm not sure that's a compliment. [laughter] >> and my work is a big compliment. but you see so much of what's happening out there and you're embracing apprenticeships

strongly but what about this kind of broader array of the middle skills and credentialing that seems to be a harder grounder or mayors -- i know it's a big slog and wondering what else do you think needs, as you think tenure so now what else needs to be on the docket to change the game for middle skills employees around the country? >> let me just, i have a slight -- i don't like the word middle skills because -- >> i am quoting jeff winner spent i look at the folks in those jobs and they are really incredibly skilled. i would call it middle-aged jobs. having said that spirit if you tweak or code that is jeff weiner, not steve clemons. clemons. >> i think we need to appreciate a better the notion of competencies. the more i speak to employers and the more, there's a lot of employers that are justifiably angry at for your entire special

because they keep telling i got this person with this resume that said he or she had this major, i hear this a lot into ig context, as they come to work for us and they just don't have the basic competence. what i love about apprenticesh apprenticeship, and and frank wi love about our partnership with community colleges, steve, is when folks come out with that certificate or when folks come out with a journey person, ibew certificate, they know what industry needs because they are working side-by-side. i hear but i want to teach critical thinking. that's another false choice. you can teach critical skills and critical thinking. it's not either or. we need to come looking down the road we need to do a better job of acknowledging and validating competencies that people have. that's what apprenticeship gives

you, is not only skills and certificates but competencies. that's why you talk to companies who are active in apprenticeships. they love it because they know that that person with a certificate is walking in the door and there's a very high probability that they'll be ready to rock 'n roll. >> let's go to the audience for questions. i want to ask my apprentice friend, if you get the question, we want to give you special status to where you and apprentice? you work? so we will come to you next. in turn, that's different, right? we are all in terms. there's actually questions thing from lisa ferguson how to move away from unpaid internships that don't lead to permanent employment with let's go through a bunch of questions but isn't one of your priorities? >> if, life happens and you've got to take the job seeker we find the. abandon ship is elusive for some

if you can't debate because you got to feed your family. that's why we're trying to get more buy-in to the earn while you learn model. >> atlanta media we don't have an unpaid internship. this gentleman right here. we will go fast questions and fast answers. do we have a microphone? i guess you've got to walk over. my apologies. go ahead. >> automatic mr. secretary, it's good to see you. one of the things that i wanted to talk with you is with regard to your farmworker opportunity program. and i have for the longest time as president of the national latino farmers and ranchers attempted to work with the groups that are working in that. and i believe strongly that it needs to be reengineered because a lot of those workers or farmers without land. and i think it would be very

useful to try to do a collaboration with them. >> great, thank you. shifting at about spent i look forward to the discussion. farmworkers have been taking it on the chin in no small measure because many of our laws do not only ignore them, but they deliberately leave them out of critical protections and that's grossly unfair. i've done a lot of work with things called the equitable food initiative which is leveraging supply chains to help lift wages and working conditions. you bought a strawberry from costco, you can have confidence that the person who picked that strawberry is paid a decent wage and have acceptable working conditions. those are the types of examples of things we're trying to do to create shared prosperity across sectors by leveraging purchasing power that large purchasers have. >> let me know. you kate hudson.

kate asked and partnerships integrate with what she called vocational education? i would call it career technical education infrastructure in the country. what specific advice would you offer to the community colleges wanting to galvanize the project opportunities? so bridging that arena of partnerships that can help as you said turbocharged apprenticeships spent the short answer is they can and are. go to north carolina come a partnership 2010 is a remarkable partnership the 23 year old kid who has bought two houses. i was at his employer and his whole model of growth is a partnership 2000. as relates to community college is one thing i would invite him to do is join the racc. because what this is is basically an articulation agreement. so that person completes the apprenticeship program, the community college within

articulate those credits and your two-thirds to three quarters of the way to your associates degree. it's a complete example of how this is not either or. >> have you been down to miami-dade? ..