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>> our first step will be to balance the budgetith >> eco though e say it can't be done. ofthat course, dole and they don't know jack kemp. [applause] host: that was jack kemp from the gop convention, august of 1996.

joining us this morning co-authors of a new book called -- about jack kemp. ,ort kondracke and fred barnes thank you for being here. why write this book about jack kemp? why now? i was retained by the jack kemp family foundation to do an oral history over a couple of years. interviewed 100 football players and congressmen and staff members and family. i realized quite early on that nobody has ever written an autobiography of him. i went to the library of congress for three years where all his papers are. he deserves an autobiography. he wrote the book. he was the most important politician of the 20th century who was never elected resident, certainly the most influential republican.

this is not original to us. i have heard it again and again. i looked at his record and it was true. previously, open space. i got fred and i wrote the book. host: why did you want to get involved? guest: well we go back a long way. we met each other covering the herald if you remember back that far. went to fox together. we have in very close friends for a very long time. and i knew jack kemp very well. i wrote a lot of stories about him at first when i was at the " the baltimore sun" and then when i was at "the new republic." i always admired him. i basically agreed with him. his tax cuts really had a dramatic effect on the country. so when mort invited me i thought about it for maybe 25

seconds and decided to join him. then we had a great time doing it. i would say when i did this research i read a lot of journalism about jack kemp. even after we were already working i'd rediscovered that the best stories of what he was doing and why he was doing it, what people said about him, were friends. i kept sending it to him. he had completely forgotten me. i accept the compliment. host: what is it about jack kemp's politics that you think people should know about, especially today and especially on this day as republicans gathered behind closed doors to talk about who should be the next leader. kemp and theack great dynamic figure he was in favor of a big idea.

the big idea was supply side acrosscs and tax cuts the board, 30% in this case that he pushed in congress. his tax cuts never passed and then he delivered into ronald reagan and reagan was always for tax cuts so he was convinced that supply-side tax cuts would work. that is what made cap historic. then there is another cap. the model for historic republicans. he never attacked opponents and always had good ideas and thought that ideas were important. he had better ideas than the other guys. i completely endorse everything that he and said. you have to remember what the 1970's were like. high unemployment. high inflation. state of mind in the

population. in 1979 only 15% of american people thought we were going in the right direction. in iran, thees soviet union had invaded afghanistan. the president did not know what to do. nixon did not know what to do about high inflation. ford did not know. jimmy carter certainly did not know. carter blamed it on the american people. it was a miserable time. jack kemp came up with this formula. everybody thought that the classic keynesian economic answer was to spend lots more money. we were already spending lots more money. it involved -- he admittedly kennedy.from john f. john f. kennedy -- democrats

like to forget -- proposed lowering the top tax rate from 90% to 70%. that was enacted after his kempsination and temp -- went as to his economic aid and said why don't we just copied the economic -- the kennedy tax cuts? that the tax went down to 50% and now down to 28%. we had 25 years of prosperity. part of our economic success, the soviets were looking at it and could not match it. he did run up deficits for sure, but the soviet union tottered at collapsed. at the end of it 69% of the american people thought the country was going in the right

over the worldll people thought the democratic capitalism was the way to go. here, but the actor he was using an instrument handed to him by jack cap. bet: so would jack kemp considered as that was meant to the? -- would he be considered establishment today? would he be in line with the conservative republicans up their? he was an economic conservative, obviously very free-market oriented. he was very conservative on foreign-policy issues, which he did not think reagan was tough enough with the soviets. he wasn on social issues a great believer in civil rights .

he said he regretted that he was not old enough at the time to be a part of the civil rights movement. he was very pro-immigration. i don'tre things -- know if they were establishment, but they make you different. he is a different kind of republican and one that more and mort and i agree is one republican ought to emulate now. certainly when he was pushing supply-side taxes he was not establishment. he was going around the establishment. he succeeded. host: he got in some hot water for doing so. guest: he was in hot water a lot. the senior republicans who would be the establishment now, the chairman of the committee's, leadership, they did not like the fact that he was not a member of the house ways and means committee and here he was pushing tax reform.

bob dole did not like it because he did not agree with it. but he thought, who is this upstart trying to rewrite the tax code? he was an outsider although he was a member of congress. oner he became a leader foreign-policy and also on -- when reagan tried to raise taxes was always against it and got incredible heat from the white house staff. whenon he ran -- on our -- piece in 1996 he wrote a saying -- and he had been hud secretary and been in can -- in favor of writing -- of a conservative war on poverty. but he talked about race a lot. he talked about immigration a lot.

at thed be enraged anti-immigration forces in the republican party. host: i want both of you to comment on what is happening behind us this morning. house freedomhe caucus, 30, 40 members strong saying they are going to dominate daniel webster, an outsider, to the republican leadership. they want to see an alternative to what exists in kevin mccarthy. they are saying they will hold out until they feed some change. what do you make of them demanding sessions? guest: i have a stake in this fight. my son happens to work for kevin mccarthy so i want to say that up front. this group, particularly the hard-core conservative group of 35 or 40 members, is really feeling strong after pushing

john boehner out. that was not the only reason he resigned but that was a reason, his inability to pull together the entire republican conference. at the end of the day my guess is -- i have said what my biases -- i think kevin mccarthy will probably win but it may not be easy. the important thing is what you raised. there have to be concessions diffusech would authority over committee assignments and things like that. i am not exactly sure what their exact demands are. host: they want more power. the process of always difficult right.

people use the power they have to try to manipulate things to their satisfaction. this is not necessarily new and is being done all out in the open right now. that is the way things are done these days. it looks messy. it is messy. is what is the policy consequence of what they are for? i don't see how the house republicans can go further right and expects the image of their party to be one that the majority of americans will accept. -- guest: they are certainly anti-immigration. they have told the hispanic community of the united states, we hate you. that is the message that is coming through. hispanics have no use for the republican brand. kids, young people, young workers are being turned off by what they are for.

if they go even further right than that i think they could spoil the brand. guest: that leaves out one thing. there are really two republican parties. there is the republican party at the state level, there is a -- the congressional party, and there is the presidential party. look at donald trump, you see one thing. look at jeb bush and marco rubio, look at john kasich. look at chris christie and a number of these candidates who are pro-immigration, pro-tax cuts. i would not say they exactly are copies of jack cap, but they certainly approach that as a limit. they are quite different from the part of the republican party -- host: who emulates jack cap in the house and who represents him on the presidential trail? guest: i think jeb bush the most. definitely john kasich is some extent. marco rubio to some extent.

cruzs maybe less so -- maybe less so. host: in the senate? guest: certainly there is paul ryan. he is not running for president, not running for speaker. at the end of the day he may wind up doing that. think he wanted. he wants to be chairman of the house ways and means committee. kemp-likea number of people and you see some of the state level as well. you have to distinguish between the congressional party and the residential party. guest: there are people in the committed toe getting stuff done. example,exander, for is working on a bipartisan basis. they have already passed a no child left behind rewrite, which

will be helpful. they are going to try to do a higher education forum and they are going to move on to consider ability. upton's 21st century cures goal which would up the amount of money spent on medical research. that is a committee that is functioning well. corker is not an exciting guy but he is chairman but he is the chairman of the senate foreign relations committee. constructive person. host: our authors joining us this morning with a book on jack and fredt kondracke barnes. david joining us, go ahead. caller: good morning gentlemen.

host: hold on. you have to talk more into the phone. caller: i guess i am not seeing they have the more progressive view of conservatism. [indiscernible] to jump in.oing i think we have gotten your point. guest: i think he says that ronald reagan and cap -- kemp were always at odds with each other. host: social issues it sounds like. guest: no. was pro-life, and so was reagan, but they did not make a big deal out of it. , reagan signed the 1986 immigration bill.

where they differ was on economic policy. and also foreign policy. kemp was always a supporter of reagan. there were some people who kemp to run- against reagan. there was even a crazy idea that he would run and then give all his delegates to reagan, that -- he did not go for that. hiswhen reagan adopted policies they were obviously on the same team. stockman,blamed david all those people for trying to undercut the tax policy that reagan had put forward in 1981. he thought that reagan was being by the secretary of

state, which i think is completely wrong. reagan's diaries show that what scholz was doing was exactly what reagan wanted. was against him on that and i think he was wrong. but fundamentally he always said good things about reagan. guest: i think the caller does have a point. that is the notion that reagan mp were -- camp -- ke just pals all the time was really not true. really pushed him to go further. he pushed against these tax increases. veered away from the original tax cut of 1981, but at one point if you are ever this, emp evenen demanded -- k demanded that reagan fired george scholz. reagan had no intention of doing that. he was close to george scholz

who really did represent his view. but there were times when reagan was at that jack kemp past because he was pushing so hard for what he believed in. staff the white house that dumped to the press day after day all these negative how he was putting his ambition ahead of the interest of the president. who does he think he has? does he think he is the leader of the country? it was very messy. sue in maryland, and independent. hi. caller: how are you? host: go ahead. and i: i am in maryland remember jack kemp. but i will tell you, he would not play today because he was then and he is now one of the biggest whiners out there.

immigration about would you please clarify that the folks who are against immigration, it is it illegal immigration. i really get very sick and tired of hearing outdated political pundits who are out of touch. arethe young people i know very much against illegal immigration. they are very much against us losing our sovereignty. when you talk about ronald reagan signing the immigration bill, he also said it was the biggest mistake of his career, that he wished he had never signed it. host: ok. guest: reagan did not say that. you know what he said the biggest mistake of his career was a bill when he was governor of california that liberalized the abortion law in california. his aides insisted it would not affect very many people but of course there were a lot of abortions. numberth is there are a of republican presidential candidates who not only are against illegal immigration, as

most people are, but want to reduce the amount of illegal immigration. , think carly fiorina is there scott walker, others. started out as republicans were just against illegal immigration but many of them have now said let's curb the amount of immigrants who come into this country legally. guest: everybody is against illegal immigration. everybody wants to control the border. is, ok, you got 12 million people in the united states, most of them are working. they are the people who pick the crops, 10 to the golf courses, work in the camry factories. ify are taking jobs that -- ordinary citizens want to take those jobs, they could do it. they are not doing it. some of you have got to do it.

what you going to do with them? not going to support 12 million people. can you imagine what the scene would be like ripping families of her? people weeping at the borders? obama has done a lot of it himself. if a republican were doing it there would be riots, especially in the media. host: chuck schumer saying to ,utgoing speaker john boehner what if he were to do it in the next two weeks? guest: there would be a convulsion and i don't think it would pass. host: democrats would not supported? guest: they -- there are just too many pitfalls. guest: what i would like to see is put a small bill on the floor, a bill that had the dream act in it. legalize his kids who grew up in

the united states. do something about agricultural workers on a temporary basis. , the numberk reform of high skill these us -- these is -- visas. you don't have to pass comprehensive immigration reform because it won't pass, but you do something. guest: i agree with him on that, but look, some big immigration bill at the last minute, you almost look -- wind up with an immigration bill that most of the country can support? you can't do it by rushing something through at the end of october. host: the book, "jack kemp: the bleeding-heart conservative who ," and theerica authors here to talk about the debate then and debate now. andn in california,

independent. you are next. caller: good morning. you talk about legal and illegal immigration. we have all these people you say we can't deport. we have to deport them. look at the electoral college. our votes don't even count anymore because of all the illegal aliens here. they are taking jobs american citizens want. they are taking our college curriculums, kicking people out of our colleges. it is a mess. our country is going downhill and we will never be able to get anything back. we have to deport them or we have new country anymore. guest: sir, with all due respect, illegal immigrants do not vote so that has nothing to do with the electoral college. secondly, those jobs, i want to

see ordinary americans standing in the line for construction jobs where you get picked up for day labor. that when i go by such places. our country is in very bad shape. very bad shape. but it is not the illegal immigrants who have made it into very bad shape. there are people up on the hill who can agree on nothing. we have terrible infrastructure. we have terrible education. teachers unions are ruining the country. it is tough. it is the-- nativeborn americans who are missing the countries up. host: we go to bill in arlington heights, illinois. caller: good morning. how are you? a couple questions. first, i miss you on the mclaughlin group. those were the days. two comments.

off, would you address the role of the federal reserve and the late 70's having grown up in the 60's and 70's i know the rates were super high at that time. could you comment on the role of the fed and how maybe that over time helps the economy by lowering interest rates? finally and the days of career politicians? guest: we are going to disagree on term limits. but we agree on the fed. part cuts, but you also have -- you tighten on the money supply. it was jimmy carter faced with this high inflation and high unemployment who brought in paul. and paul was brought in for one reason, and that is to punch down inflation. and he started off for a strongly undercut it. then reagan came in and reagan

supported him as well. we had a recession, even higher unemployment than the recession in 2009. and reagan backed it. didn't jump all over paul as the fed chairman. and inflation was crushed. and he was a very important part of what went on, along with the growth, but really cracking down on the money supply. paul: kemp thought that was pressing too hard on the brakes. he was constantly fighting. in a matter fact, he wanted paul not to be reappointed, which, of course, reagan did. and he thought that paul was inflation and growth obsessed. that every time he was wrong -- every 10 the growth rate would begin to pick up -- kemp was afraid that paul would crush down -- or raise the interest

rates again and spoil the recovery. whathe also thought -- dragon past was not pure kemp law. -- what reagan passed was not -- pure kemp law. somehow, the accelerator never got to down far enough, which is what caused the huge 1983 recession. unemployment rose to almost 11% in one month. guest: i am against term limits because we have term limits. every two years, if you don't like the guy you've got, or woman you've got, you can throw them out. and all you are going to get as a result of term limits is novice is on capitol hill, career lobbyists, career staff aides, career bureaucrats.

they are going to run them around by they noses. so i would rather have experienced people, even if they are incompetent. guest: even if they can't agree, having a so bunch -- host: kevin mccarthy has some of the least experience in history of being speaker. then you have this, tweeting it, a speaker of the house with a major speaking problem? the world is a joke. guest: he made a gaffe, obviously, when he was being interviewed by sean hannity on fox a couple of weeks ago what he said about the ben ghazi committee, which i think was actually untrue. has beenhe committee very straight, very honest. and it has uncovered things about hillary clinton and her whole e-mail system, which we would attempt known otherwise. rt, term limitsmo have been tested at the state

level in many, many states. what you say has not happened there. state legislatures have continued to function effectively, even though many of the people in the house or the senate in the states have to leave. and it turns out, of course, that there are many, many offices for these perennial office seekers that they can go there, many other things they can run for. so term limits, get elected the house, ok, that runs out. then you are in the state senate and you can run for governor and so on. i think it worked quite well at the state level. host: we will go to loretta, cleveland, ohio. caller: oh, hi. good morning, everyone. i wanted to take issue with the supply-side economics because it was not -- [indiscernible] -- it was called three or four

other names also. it was called triple down. and it was called voodoo economics by bush senior. now, i think that if you are on the receiving end of all those tax cuts, you are doing good. but at the same time, the republicans have been picking and choosing the winners and losers ever since they have been in power. and they do this every time. as the supply-side economics, or the trickle-down theory, it was never proven. 1% every time they give the and corporations tax cut money, it disappears. they don't create jobs, or they did it create jobs here in america. host: all right, loretta. guest: look at what happened in

the 1980's. supply-side economics emphatically worked. and by the way, it was trickle down to an extent, in terms of actual dollars. thanpeople did get more middle-class people, but they already have more than middle-class people. but they did invest the money and nobody doubt is in favor of a top rate of 70% that i know of. itself even among the democrats. the tax cuts in those days would too high. now, i agree with you that -- but it is not part of supply-side economics. what supply-side economics is is across-the-board tax cuts for everybody, including poor people. what kemp was against was drilling special interest ho in the tax structureles -- holes in

the tax structure. group hadnterest hired lobbyists to create loopholes in the tax code. he passed in 1986 to lower the rate for everybody but eliminate lots and lots of loopholes. host: hi, john. caller: i am saddened to hear a comment that i heard, but i'm not surprised. the comment was made that the republican party is against immigration and it flat out false. -- it is flat-out false. we are a sovereign country, and otto think it is too much to ask for no one who is in your country, even the 40% that are -- they made the

terms when they came into this country and they are still hanging out here. is ao say that i think terrible comment for the two commentators to agree to. and it is false. host: we will clarify here. guest: fred said -- i don't know if you heard him -- that's a number of the presidential candidates are now in favor of limiting legal immigration. right? that is part of why the republican party is getting this bad rep. youondly, you have the -- have the leading presidential candidate at the morning -- moment, donald trump, who, by the way, i regard as the antithesis for everything that jack kemp stood for. you have him saying that he is going to deport these people. and you imagine what kind of a scene this is going to present to the world?

just think about donald trump in the face of the world and presented to the world -- at -- and the face of america and present it to the world. what kind of scene that is going to be? it is going to look like syria. and it will make the united states -- they may as well put a shroud over the statue of liberty. guest: i am not for deportation, but syria? i don't think it is quite syria. some republicans are for reducing illegal immigration. i am not for that. we do need to, in addition to stopping illegal immigration, we the legal reform immigration system because the legal immigration system gives incentives for those to come

illegally. you go to the front of the line to get in of the united states. that dominates. two thirds of the immigrants who come in come in under the family unification system. so if you are, say, a young mexican who wants to come to the united states because you see it as the land of opportunity and you can really on your own decide the destiny of your own life, you are not going to go to the end of the line and wait 25 years is something to be legally admitted to the united states. you are going to come in legally. we need to straighten out the illegal immigration system. bytainly, all republicans any means are not anti-immigration. in fact, most of them are not. but there is a significant group who really want to curb even legal immigration. host: setting immigration aside, right back to capitol hill, what

advice would you give with jack kemp being the model to republicans and their fall agenda and what they are going to do in the coming weeks leading up to the 2016 election? the longwould pass promised replacement for obamacare. they have repealed it 100 times. it has not been repealed. they have not shown what to they are for. they have not passed the tax reform bill. senateuld process in the and pass a significant increase in medical research. they could build infrastructure. host: short-term one. guest: they could pass the budget. they could actually keep the government going and under the terms they said.

they could force obama to veto some of these things, at least they would show what they are for and they would show the country that they are for things instead of just being against whatever obama is for. host: and there were reports that paul ryan, who you say represents jack kemp and house, working across the chamber -- in the house, working across the chamber. guest: i don't think that is going to go anywhere, but republicans have said they want to do immigration, for instance, in stages. well, let's see stage one. they can go ahead and do that. they don't have to wait. the thing about obamacare is ridiculous. why go to through this huge effort -- why go through this huge effort when it is going to be filibustered? everybody knows what the republican plan is going to be and it will be outlined by the republican presidential nominee.

which is completely different from obamacare. there are many different versions of it. host: we will hear from brenda next. caller: hello. host: good morning. caller: i just want to say one thing. i can't remember his last name, his first name is mort. guest: [laughter] nevermind. guest: we all have trouble with it. caller: i just wanted to say that i have two sons, what is 28 and one is 31. both work construction. and they have been working since they were elected years old. -- working since they were 19 years old. i just hate when i hear them say on tv that americans won't do these jobs because i have done those jobs. and my kids, you know, they have

been hard-working men ever since they have been of age. so i just wanted to correct to that. guest: ok. look, there are americans who do those jobs. i haven't seen any americans raking sand traps and golf courses or very -- in golf courses or very many in big cities cleaning hotel rooms, including in trump's hotel rooms, i might say. so i don't -- i didn't mean to insult your family or your kids. i am sure they are hard-working. but they are working, right? so i don't see mexicans taking their jobs. host: we will go to lee, an independent. caller: yes, i agree with the previous callers. i had to call in. i need you guys to stop doing that. all the talking heads do that. illegalsnot 12 million

doing the jobs that other people want to. there are not 12 million pounds out here for that. if you go -- farms out here for that. if you go to any store, any insurance office, they are not -- there are not to blacks, there are not whiten their. they are hispanics. they are being hired because this be good to a language. there is no such thing as 12 million farmworkers or 12 million doing service work working hotels. there isn't enough room for 12 million of them to do those jobs. so they are moving into other areas. and unlike the lady that just called, my grandson because of nepotism is being pushed out of jobs are these things because they had their friends and every thing else. it is not fair for you to continue to say -- [indiscernible] -- to continue saying, well,

they do the jobs that americans don't do. host: mort, if you want to -- guest: you see somebody working in an insurance office, ask them if they are american. i bet they are. host: let's talk a little bit more about this book, "jack kemp: the bleeding-heart conservative who changed america ," talk about who he was. nfl quarterback. how did that shape his governing style? him as a politician. guest: he was a leader. quarterbacks led, quarterbacks had the vision, quarterbacks with a member of the football team that showed everybody else the way to victory. -- were a member of the football team that showed everybody else the way to victory. that is the way he led. you didn't just have them talking about the types of tax cuts he wanted to do, jack kemp put together a movement. so many of these young republicans that came in --

think about newt gingrich. he became an acolyte of jack kemp. then weber, the great congressman from minnesota, was another one. dan coats from indiana. they became followers of jack kemp. and it wasn't just young members of congress, either. it was the "wall street journal" endorsed over and over again has tax cut deals -- ideas. it was a movement that jack created of which he was the quarterback. host: how do you go from a quebec to an intellectual? -- from a quarterback to an intellectual? not equity backed's are not smart. [laughter] guest: they had to be pretty smart. how they can remember all those plays, i don't know. anyway, he was a mediocre student in college. he was a physical education major. he was football obsessed. working.he started

he started traveling around with the team and he started reading. he read the "wall street journal," while his teammates were reading "playboy" and "sports illustrated." that he got deeper and deeper. he went to a seminar in economics. it wasn't that he didn't have an intellectual background. his mother was very highly educated. had a masters degree, i think, in social work. and constantly encourage the kids to talk. i took them to concerts and ballets and stuff like that. it is just that in his youth, he was not interested. then he got more and more interested. ultimately, he read everything there was to read about economics. washe time he was done, he as expert as anybody in monetary policy, fiscal policy, international economics,

foreign-policy, defense policy, but he was self-taught. host: how did he become a bleeding heart? guest: you know, he came from a republican background. and his parents were republican. he wasn't a southerner heard -- southerner. i think a lot of it has to do with his football career. he played with many, many african-americans, and he found that when he was in the american football league, they were discriminated against. when they were travel, the black players would be put in some college dormitory tuesday and the white players in some nice hotel. , theefore kemp complained white players would always have white roommates, and kemp complained about that and it changed on the teams he was on. and i think he really learned a lot to there. said, he came to regret that he was not old enough at the time to be a part of the civil rights movement. host: and try to really push the

inclusion of african-americans into the republican party. i want to show our viewers -- this is jack kemp during an oral history with c-span back in 2007. he was talking about a campaign event today at a black owned business. [video clip] >> number one, a gave a speech at harlem. my wife and i had gone -- and there was griping in the campaign of why is kemp hunting for docs when there are no docs -- ducks when there are no ducks? a friendyoung owner -- of mine, a black republican. and we had this rally at his restaurant. and charlie wrangle came. charlie was an old friend from my house days. he asked, what are you doing at a kemp event? and he said jack and i are friends. long story short, we had a nice

reception. i get on the plane, fly to boston, and a reporter says could you give the speech he gave at the restaurant in harlem to a suburban kansas city, kansas audience? i said, of course i could. kansas city wants the same thing as anybody. jobs, good education, chance to own your own home. these things are universal. at the american dream, it is the universal dream. guest: jack kemp wanted the republican party to once again become the party of abraham lincoln. and it was famously said of him that he had showered with more african-americans as a football player than most republicans have ever met. and he believed in outreach. he said that america's family should include everybody. and that was a pretty good example of the spirit of the guy. guest: i agree.

remember, trying to make the point that jack was basically a congressman. -- basically a northern republican. northern republicans voted almost always in unanimous numbers, while democrats, so many of them, were against it. so he really represented that background. and so it was quite natural for him to become a civil rights enthusiast favoring immigration and so on. and those really did become a big part of his political life. host: he didn't listen, though, when the party repeatedly tried to tell him what are you doing. you write he goes down to mississippi and he is at a fundraiser, and someone tells him, don't talk about it. he talks but at the entire time. guest: the party of lincoln. unfortunately, he was in northern republican. unfortunately, although southern democrats to the filibusters.

those people have been replaced by republicans, who are now the people driving john boehner out of office. guest: but they were not defenders of segregation. guest: they would be -- guest: how do you know? how do know is what is in their hearts? guest: it is the same mentality -- guest: southern republicans may not agree with jack camps views -- jack kemp's views, but they are not like the southern -- guest: they are now taking it out on mexicans. host: we will go to jennifer, west virginia, a democrat. caller: how are you? i'm calling as a former republican, and i was a jack kemp republican. i grew up in southern california. i was in college in the 1980's. i really believed in supply-side economics. it was a new thing then. it was being very antiestablishment. that if we give tax

cuts to wealthy people that it which ago down to the core and it would enhance our economy and all the wonderful things that we 1980's;back in the however, it didn't work. it never did trickle down. i went from being a fiscal conservative to now what i consider being fiscally responsible. there were a lot of people who do need extra help. i guess my question is -- at doespoint -- how far down -- how unequal to incomes have to become before supply side economics people will admit that it didn't work? guest: it did work. ma'am, it did work at the time. if you remember the difference between yourself and the late 1970's and the kind of economic conditions you were in, and the

economic conditions even up to 2000, bill clinton did not substantially change what kemp was all about. from 28%,the top rate i think, to 33%. that is all he did. cut capitaly he gains taxes and stuff like that, and it did work. the problem is that, one, the tax code has been drilled through full of special interest holes. and jack kemp believed what you believed. that people at the bottom -- he started out saying a rising tide lifts all boats. and the tax cuts that he put through affected everybody, and they work. now, he came to believe burning jordan convinced him -- vernon jordan convinced him that there were some votes stuck on the bottom and needed left it.

so he was in favor of limiting the capital gains taxes in poverty areas. he was in favor of giving people housing vouchers so they could go out and rent their own houses. and he was in favor of education toys. you know, this is a hobby horse of mine, but i think the teachers unions of this country are one of the most detrimental organizations there are for poor people. and in order for poor people to rise, they have got to get a decent education. charter schools in the district of columbia and california and wetlands have proved -- and new orleans have proved that you can teach poor kids, but the teachers unions resist every kind of form. guest: that was awfully good, though. [laughter] host: joe adds this to the conversation. how do explain the appearance --

apparent failure of the bush tax cuts to see late prosperity? guest: the bush tax cuts -- host: right. guest: the early 2000. well, they certainly stalled off a recession. there was a mild recession when bush came in. i thoughtcreated -- they did maintain prosperity, just not at the level of the reagan tax cuts. we had years when you had 6% growth and things like that. compare the bush years, except for maybe the last year when the comedy got into so much trouble -- the economy got into so much trouble, with the obama years, and the bush years look pretty good. it is the first time maybe ever, but certainly in many, many decades when we hadn't had a single year of 3% growth. it is just 2% growth with people dropping out of the economy. it is not working very well.

jack kemp -- guest: i wanted to say one thing about kemp. there was one simple thing where i think you made the right choice. if you had to choose between spring economic growth and trying to curb the deficit, he always went with growth. never aou know, he was budget balancer, right? what has happened is the fed has done everything it possibly can to keep the economy afloat. congress has been austerity minded. we put in budget caps on everything, everything across the board. stupidly. including defense. what this country needs is it needs public investment. kemp -- i am departing from the kemp playbook because it wasn't the issue it was then, but this country -- and i think fred agrees with this -- needs infrastructure. we are 17th in the world and the quality of our infrastructure, and that is an investment that

could create jobs. and the congress just want to do it. host: what do you think jack kemp would say about wages in this country, the wage gap, the lack of growth of their and how would he address it -- there and how would he address it? guest: he would say that -- that it is not the difference that counts, what it is is that everybody should rise. he didn't mind rich people getting richer, although i must say i think he would be against interest. -- i think you would be against that. -- he would be against that. but he was trying to raise the bottom and not bring down the topic host: i am going to go to regina, a republican. go ahead. caller: hi. getting back to the day workers, those day workers don't pay

medicare, they don't pay social security. but it works in the regular native americans. they work and have to pay into these uncontrolled, unhealthy subsidized.ghly when they need to go the hospital, their costs are taking care of. that is why our hospitals are brokered we, the people, take care of them, the native. there is no comparison between the people who go in there a legally compared to the people who have to pay into that base. they like to be paid cash. many contractors have lost to the illegals while they come in with their a legal social security card, which isn't gone after, and they lose their whole business because this contractor taught them how to do everything and then they take their business. host: i am going to leave it there. this is a debate that sparks phone calls. the lines light up.