>> michelle malkin come in your new book sold out, what happened? >> disney workers were summoned into a meeting room a lot of them had just gotten off of a project where they performed with excellent skills and a lot of them assumed that they were going to be reworded somehow and it was a horror story that no hollywood writers could conjure up in this case and the reality was so much worse than anything else you could have imagined. they were informed that they were going to be laid off. but even worse, and this is something that had been repeated over and over again over the last couple of decades like a dirty little secret of the information technology, they were told that they were going to be forced to train their replacements from india as a condition of receiving any kind

of severance pay. ..it is actually built into the h-1bhat created the specialty worker program. i,n miano, my co-author and the timing ofk -- the book is very fortuitous. i think in some ways profit -- providential. at a time during an election cycle where these issues are finally coming to the four and where there is now a growing ever -- knowledge of this practice and the devastating impact that these policies are having on the best and brightest work a your co-author is with the center for immigration studies as well. mr. miano, how does the h-1b guest worker program work? >> guest: well, the way it g

works, actually, it's a three-step process. paris, the i employer -- first, the employer has to make out a labor condition application in which they certify they're going toye be calling the so-called prevailing wage and that they're not going to be violating certain rules. unfortunately, this step is jusr a paper-shuffling exercise because once it's submitted, the the president of labor is -- the department of labor is required to approve all these applications as long as the form is filled out correctly. then when that's approved, and you can pretty much guess it'll be automatically approved, they submit the actual piece of s petition to uscis, and if they approve it, then they go to the state department to get theto actual visa. >> host: and how many workers are coming into the united states, and where are they going? >> guest: there are aboute 120-130,000 are coming a year. >> host: i thought this was capped at about 65,000. >> guest: yeah. well,00 see, that's the little mistake, they don't count all

the visas in that cap.t so there's a base cap of 65,000. there's an additional cap of 20,000 for u.s. graduates and unlimited for people going to academia and research. and the reason why they say do0. it that way is because we can say, oh, we've been capped for all these years n. reality, the number of visas has more than doubled since the 1990s. >> host: in yourhe booker michee malkin, you write: the manufacturing of a crisis, there is no s.t.e.m. shortage. we repeat, there is no s.t.e.m. shortage. s.t.e.m., ofrt course, being science, technology, engineering and math. >> guest: this month, november, actually marks the 25th anniversary of the creation of the h-1b program. and all along there's been this underlying premise on the part of both big business and big

government cheerleaders for the program that we need to bring in these, this -- we need to have this huge pipeline, and it needs to be increased. and in some cases, many of these political crapweesals -- weasels, as i call them, the subtitle of the book who cut all the back room deals to do things like what john said, to have the unlimited number of people coming in under the h-1b program who were hired by academic institutions, research institutions. be and it all rests on this presumption that there are not enough american high-skilled workers doing this job. and we trace the history of a lot of the advocacy research, much of it which was born inside the government bowels to to bolster this claim that there were not enough native and legal

permanent residents already here to fill these jobs. and it's not true, and the fact is that outside of sort of the d.c. front group, front groups of lobbyists, in this constellation of lobbyists and special interests that always masquerade by these patriotic games, we have a chapter in the book called legion of doom where we basically catalog where these people are coming from, where the money is coming from, and we highlight a lot of the shoddy advocacy research they're doing. but when you look at independent academics, people who don't have a vested interest, people who are nonpartisan, it's clear from all the economic evidence just simply looking at wages in this country in these particular sectors that there is no shortage. and, in fact, we've had a lot of data come in over the last couple of years that indicates that you've gotten millions.

11 out of some 15 million americans who have these so-called s.t.e.m. diplomas who aren't able to find work because they're undercut and underpriced by these h-1b visa holders. >> host: the numbers are up on the screen if you'd like to participate in our conversation with michelle malkin and john miano, co-authors of "sold out." michelle malkin, my guess is that crapweasels was something that you put in the title of this book. [laughter] what is a crapweasel? >> guest: look, it represents this creature in washington, elected official who says one thing to to get elected and then turns around and not just does another thing, but completely betrays the base of voters who sent them there in the first place. well, that pretty much covers 99.99% of washington, doesn't it?

[laughter] >> host: exposed: how beltway crapweasels cooked up the gang of eight's come comprehensive immigration reform. john miano. >> guest: well, it's interesting you mention that because somehow we've been sold that this bill would actually reform the immigration system. in reality, comprehensive reform didn't reform anything. and that's how, essentially, washington works. they distract the public by creating a bill that doesn't reform immigration, so there's nothing out there to reform immigration. and one of the obvious examples is the bill that created the current immigration system in 1952 was 120 pages long. comprehensive reform in 2013 was 1,198 pages. and that wasn't 1,198 new pages,

that was 1,198 pages on top of the 120 pages and on top of everything added over the decades. >> host: okay. be -- got two articles here that i want to push back just a little and get your view as an immigration lawyer and somebody who is with the center for immigration studies. first of all, here is debunking the myth that immigration harms america. this was put out by several groups including national association of manufacturers, u.s. chamber of commerce, sponsored by facebook, cta, used to be cea, the consumer electronics associate, etc. myth: lowering the number of immigrants would free up jobs for american workers. and they say, fact: immigration helps create jobs for american workers. >> guest: where's the evidence? anyone can just say that. i mean, immigration itself isn't going to just create a job. there has to be other factors as

well. >> host: such as? >> guest: you know, that what is the type of immigrant? be i mean, if you -- if you import someone who's a panhandler is an immigrant, at one end, that person's not going to create a job. so there have to be certain, you have to qualify it more than immigrant creates jobs, and that's how they express it. >> guest: the other thing, too, i think is important in the book, you know, really one of my core missions as a journalist over the last 25 years is to help people synthesize information. and the synergy that john and i had in writing this book came from, you know, my journalism background and being able to tell stories and john's, with his analytical skills and, of course, the depth of knowledge that he has about how all of the immigration so-called reform sausage making has to considered in this town. -- has occurred in

this town. and part of that entire kabooky theater involves these advocacy groups that pose as neutral number crunchers. and so we have what i think is a very important and enlightening section on one of these very prominent groups. it's the partnership for, national partnership for a new economy x in conjunction with not just, you know with, from if my perspective as a conservative journalist, people on the left, but people on the so-called right. big business interests. conservative think tanks. and they come up with, they just pull these figures out of the air and then have them regurgitated by bill gates or mark zuckerberg, and they march up on to capitol hill, and not only do they claim there's a tech worker shortage, but they also say that h-1b actually magically creates some random multiplier of jobs, 10, 20, 50

times. and it really takes even just a basic knowledge of things like, yes, regression analysis. i know your eyes are glazing over, but it's important to understand how they cook the books. >> host: some of these groups' names include compete america, council for global immigration, information technology industry council and things like that. but then on the leftish side of the spectrum is the american immigration council, and they say before the employer can file a petition with u.s. citizen and immigration service, the employer must attest that employment of the h-1b worker will not adversely affect wages and working conditions of similarly-employed u.s. workers. >> guest: actually, they're quoting from a different statute, not one that doesn't

apply to h-1b. that's a5a which doesn't, which the government claims does not apply to h-1b. and, in fact, they said when they make those attestations, the department of labor is required to approve them as long as the form is filled out correctly. >> guest: yeah. this is just part, again, of the entire smoke screen that goes on, because they assume that your average, ordinary american doesn't have time and is not interested in knowing the distinctions between a labor certification application and a labor condition application. and so it is part of the big, fat lie, and we bust all of these myths in the chapter on all of the talking points that you always hear that somehow american workers are protected not only with regard to so-called nondisplacement clauses, but with recruitment conditions as well. and it turns out, of course, that many of these things that they claim protect the entire

class of american workers only apply to a tiny, teeny, tiny, tiny amount of businesses in this country. and then for the businesses that they do apply to, of course, the lobbyists are in the back room trying to make sure that their special preference or special loophole is built into, oh, i don't know, the gang of eight bill, and it's 6,000 passengers or whatever it is -- pages or whatever it is. >> host: well, let's take some calls. let's get our callers involved. michelle malkin and john miano are the co-authors, and steve is calling in from phoenix on our democrats' line. please go ahead, steve. >> caller: good morning, and thank you for c-span. my question is to both guests, and i'm not trying to beat up anybody, but the question is, where's the surprise? the -- yeah, it's all about capitalism. capitalism is about gathering market share. it only seems reasonable to me that in the desire to lower the prices, we're going to get the

lowest priced labor. it worked so good with the palette maker and a forklift driver, why not work up to -- [inaudible] that's my question. it worked down below, why not up above? >> guest: well, what i'd say is you see that it's coming, that the big business is coming at american worker from all sides, that, you know, we've seen it as you're describing it's a low wage, and most of the public debate is on the low wage, low wage immigration, should we have some sort of amnesty for illegal aliens. but the problem of americans in tech industries being fired and replaced by foreign workers really hasn't hit the news until recently. >> guest: and the other thing i would add, too, is this comes up a lot because, of course, there are a lot of fissures on the right side of the aisle between libertarians who join with sort of open borders folks on left, and this is all in the headlines of the papers today about where does the gop stand.

i think our feeling about the h-1b program and all of these foreign guest worker programs, this is not capitalism. this is clonenyism. cronyism. this is american businesses, the cream dela creme in silicon valley using the power of government to rig the game. and, in fact, in an appendix in the book we reprint the e-mails between google and apple fixing wages. they want to fix wage, and they want to fix their pipeline for this, you know, cheap foreign labor supply that's undercutting america. >> host: well, in fact, this headline came from this morning's "usa today," more temp workers might come to u.s. congress is considering legislation to allow u.s. employers to bring in thousands more unskilled foreign workers for seasonal jobs that last as long as ten months at a time. i know that's not what your book is about, it's about the h-1b program, but everybody seems to support, but what about the issue of unskilled workers,

bringing in more? >> guest: well, i mean, again, they're facing the same problem as the tech workers are. and the reality is not everybody in the united states really has the skill to become a computer programmer, and so there are going to be people who are going to be, in america, who will be doing labor, manual labor type jobs. and, i mean, if we're going to do anything about poverty, we have to improve the conditions for them. and in theory, the free market should allow that to happen. but congress isn't allowing the free market to work by bringing in more foreign labor. >> guest: we already have 66,000 visas that are issued for non-agricultural seasonal workers and another 117,000 every year for ag workers. and in the same way that these tech companies are always or talking about a shortage, you'll also hear that in the agricultural industry as well, and it's just as suspect. >> guest: i saw a article just

recently in the newspaper where the writer was saying that paying someone $13.59 was an absurdly high wage. i mean, that person could barely make it by on that. and that was for agricultural work. >> host: carrie is in canton, north carolina. republican line. carrie, where is canton? is that in the raleigh durham area. >> caller: no, that's right beside asheville, western north carolina. >> host: okay. >> caller: up in the mountains. >> host: okay, go ahead. >> caller: michelle, my best friend would be so jealous if he could just even know that i get to talk to you this morning. >> guest: oh, well good morning. >> guest: being that said, i've got pros and cons to both sides of this. i can listen to the democratic party and some of the latino groups, and they say, well, we're pretty much trying to blackmail the country into accepting am necessity. but on the other hand to -- am necessity, but on the other

hand, i can see a man having to walk 2,000 miles across the desert because he knows once he gets to this country, he's got a job. most of the population of our inner cities won't walk across a street to get a job, i can see why he wants to come. i mean, i'm torn both ways. i grew up working tobacco, tomatoes, beans on the farm. that's how i worked my way up to get a skilled trade job. i'm a transmission mechanic. fifteen years ago i went to a seminar which they said that the average age of a mechanic today is 46 years old. it just -- i can look at the universities out there today and see where our government has actually failed. not only us, but our children. >> host: all right. carey, we're going to leave it there and get a response from michelle malkin. >> guest: ing yeah, there's a lot there. i think i would approach it in

this way and, certainly, as a child of legal immigrants to this country, i understand what he's saying about america as a beacon for people who want to come here and work hard. but we already have many processes in place to bring people here who have something to contribute, whatever part of the pay scale we're talking about. and the fact is that the number one problem in terms of immigration enforcement that this federal government faces is that you're completely overwhelmed. we go into great detail; gao reports and inspector general reports and every single agency of the immigration enforcement bureaucracy. they're creeking. they can't even -- creaking. they can't even enforce these basic worker protections in h-1b and the eb5 program which is selling green cards to the highest bidder. let alone the problem, the

ongoing problem of the illegal immigration situation. and so not only do we have to fight this compulsion that both parties have -- and i think that's one thing that's really distinctive about this book. we go after republicans probably even harder than the democrats. and it really does transcend all of these party lines. the inability of the federal government to do its basic duty, every single one of these immigration and entrance programs should put american workers and american citizens first. their public safety, our national security and economic security. >> host: i want to show some charts from bloomberg business and, john miano, you'll be able to see them right there. here's a cluster of skilled foreigners. it says that in total employment, 22% of raleigh-durham, north carolina, area for skilled workers is held

by h-1b visa holders. it says that most of these folks come from india. you can see there that the vast majority of h-1b employees come from india, and then china is next in the line. and then who is employing them? and these are some groups that, you know, at the top that maybe we haven't heard of. and it begins with tata consultancy services limited and cognizant tech solutions u.s., the two biggest employers of these h-1b. and i want you to address that. we have, i think, one more chart? nope, that's it. yeah, we have one more chart, and this is jobs that the h-1b visa holders are holding; systems analyst, programming, computer-related, university, electrical, education. but tata consultancy, what is that?

>> guest: tata consultancy a division of tata which is like india's mitsubishi. they're in the business of moving jobs out of the united states up to india. so what we see, what the h-1b program has done is creating the business of moving jobs overseas. so what tata will do is bring a few people into the united states to then send 30 jobs overseas. so you'll see five or six people in the united states on an h-1b visa, and then there'll be about 30 americans that lost their job and the rest of the business going to india. >> host: william is calling from minneapolis. william, you're on the air, independent line. >> caller: thank you, peter. i like you very much, but i think you've really got to make an effort to get to more callers there. >> host: i, you know what? you are absolutely correct. [laughter] >> caller: okay. i like you. michelle, i don't usually agree with you on things, but i have to agree with you on this.

i like to think i live in the h-1b capital of america which is minneapolis, and we have target corporation and best buy here, and all the employees in there engineering are, quote-unquoted, engineering, they're all indian. it's, and they overstay their visas, you know, and they never go home. that's never even addressed in immigration. all they talk about is the mexicans or hispanics that's coming across the borders, but the true illegal immigrants are the people that come on h-1b visas and get these high-tech jobs and high jobs in corporations like best buy and target corporation who i don't think you guys are aware of -- >> guest: oh, we're aware of them. >> guest: very. [laughter] oh, yeah. >> caller: you know? and they overstay their visas. >> host: all right. we got point, william, thank you. who wants to answer that? >> guest: i think probably a little bit of both of us. but, of course, in minnesota you've got senator amy klobuchar there who is the cosponsor of

legislation on capitol hill that would greatly expand the number of these h-1b visas. and he hit on exactly something that is the theme of the introduction of the book. one of the things that we find has been flaw in much of the reporting, and it has improved over the years, is that even "the new york times" which is playing catch-up on covering these issues treats it as if this is something new when, as we have emphasized, this idea of bringing these people over here, making american workers train them and then watching these american workers have to see these replacements go back to their home countries carrying all the knowledge that they imparted with them as a condition of receiving severance, it's happened at disney, sowr california edison -- southern california edison, cargill, harley davidson. the fact that the caller disagrees with me on moat things but -- most things but we can

come together on this again shows you the very interesting fault lines here. and it's going to make a lot of people vulnerable. hillary clinton, we talked about tata consultancy. as a senator, she brought tat taxer to buffalo as part of a deal that created ten jobs. meanwhile, in the back door they were petitioning for 1600 h-1b visas. where's the democratic outrage of that? the party of the people, the party of the workers? >> host: from "the new york times": large companies game h-1b visa program and jobs leave the u.s. this is julia preston writing. she says that many of the visas are given out through a lottery and a small number of giant, global, outsourcing companies has flooded the system with applications, significantly applications, significantly increasing their chances of success. john in virginia, democrat. good morning. caller: good morning.

thank you for taking my call. i just want to say that i live in anginia and i worked area. i am shocked at how many immigrants that are living in this area. we haves to me that seen a lot of young students graduating university, working at costco, and they can't get a job. they have an $80,000 loan on their backs. it really bothers me that when someone tells me that we don't have enough employees we >> caller: we can give that job that would bring them overseas. here's thing, most of these companies care about the money. instead of paying the americans 80,000 or 90,000, they'd rather pay indians for 40,000 so they can save 50,000 for their pockets. and most of all, i hear a lot of -- i don't know if it is true or not. there's a lot of bribery going

on or corruption about these visas. it's not only here. the people that they're bringing, they're not qualified. they have to retrain all over again. so when these guys get into the system, guess what they're going to say? they ask the management, can i bring in my cousin? it's amazing what's happening -- >> host: all right, john, we got the point. mr. miano, is he right about the salary differential? >> guest: yes. the 17th percentile of u.s. wages where we'd say the 50th percentile is the median. what we actually normally would call the prevailing wage. although one thing i would like to say that his focus on the indian aspect of this which is certainly a problem, but the problem with the h-1b program isn't in india, it's right over there on capitol hill with americans, largely european-americans, not indians.

and they're the problems, not the indian companies. >> host: is he right about corruption? or is it a gaming of the system? >> guest: ing well, it's not even a gaming of the system. the h-1b program is working exactly as it's designed to do. that's one of my issues -- i'm glad to see "the new york times" covering this issue. but i think, but my biggest objection to "the new york times"' coverage other than it being new to this issue is that it's portrayed as exceptional. this is exactly how congress has set the system up and how it's working. the only thing that's not working as it's designed is that the news media is starting to cover it now, and they haven't been doing it in the past. >> host: we are talking with the co-authors of "sold out" about the h-1b visa program. david is this chicago on our independent line. hi, david. >> caller: as an american tech worker, i want to thank you so much, john and michelle, for writing this book. it's about time word gets out. i'd like you to discuss how

these trade deals have, as part of ford, wto and foreign guest workers whether it's the immigration chapter in tpp or the fact that we're baked into a 65,000 h-1bs per year because of wto. and secondly, discuss the three executive actions that the obama administration wants to do this terms of spouses of h-1b work permits, fast track green cards and the opt. if you could do that. and the total number of h-1bs -- >> host: okay. a lot of there. a lot of acronyms, david, and we'll get john miano on it in just a second. what kind of tech work do you do? >> caller: i do a data center network cloud with some nascent cybersecurity, so i'm very skilled, well trained, and i'm making wages i was making 20 years ago because of the wage suppression. and wages have been flat for tech workers since about 2000. so we know there's no shortage, because if there was a shortage of s.t.e.m. workers, wages would be going up. certainly, that's the argument for paying executives high

compensation, because there's not enough talent. well, if that were the case for tech workers, wages would be going up like they did in the '90s. but, n., they're not -- in fact, they're not. so -- >> host: all right, we got it. john miano. >> guest: well, h-1b is just the tip of the iceberg. there are other ways that foreign labor is coming in in this area of technical workers. one of issues he raised is trade deals, and the inside lobbyists are using trade deals as a means to bring foreign labor in. the u.s. is locked into giving at least 65,000 h-1b visas every year under treaty, and now under this new be, the trans-pacific partnership, they're also trying to slip in more foreign labor. then -- [laughter] i'm just going through the list, david's list.

the other thing we could add is that there are executive actions going on. obama this year started allowing spouses of h-1b workers to work. industry lobbyists have fought that and hope they can eventually turn h-1b into a twofer where they can get spouse and get the spouse, both spouses to work on a single visa. another one we have is what's called the optional practical training program which is a student visa. in 2008 microsoft came to the department of homeland security secretary at a dinner party with the idea of using student visas as a means to get around the h-1b quota, and dhs worked in absolute secrecy to produce the regulations, and the public didn't even know that these were being considered until dhs put them out without notice and comment. and so, essentially, we had this situation where microsoft t was telling dhs to do regulations. they just did it and dropped it

in. and i've been involved with that because i had a court case that got those regulations et aside -- set aside. but the obama administration's response to that was, oh, well, let's just put out new regulations and let them work even longer. so i've hit on several, and i haven't even hit all the different ways that are being used to admit foreign labor here. >> host: but they are detailed in "sold out." gene is in dublin, virginia. hi, gene. >> caller: good morning. thanks for c-span. i'd like to relate two things and, you know, get a comment. first one is i'm a former -- i'm a refugee from the big blue oval up in dearborn, and when i was looking for a new engineer for my group, i went to my h.r. person, and all i got was h-1b vis a vis people. visa people. now, i've worked internationally most of my life. in fact, if i was still working, i'd be in brazil this weekend. so i'm far from xenophobic.

i went to my h.r. person and said, hey, here in dearborn we are surrounded by universities that are turning out, making out pretty good little engineers. can we find at least one american to which i was told, quote: h-1b visa people work between $9-14,000 a year cheaper, so that's who we hire. the other issue is i now have graduate students who are showing me mails from i.t. companies that are literally being miles from where you guys are sitting. and in the e-mail it says, quote: come to work for my i.t. company, and i guarantee you will be accepted at one of these two universities. and that one of them is also in tyson's corner. if you look at them, they're unaccredited universities. basically, what they're doing is they're using the student visa system as a scam to get around the immigration workers and get i.t. workers in the companies.

and by the way, this i.t. company, i did a little research because my undergrad's engineering. and this company has government contracts. >> host: all right. gene, we got the point. tyson's corner, of course, is here in the washington suburbs, a high-tech area. >> guest: yeah. we have an entire chapter in the book on how the f-1 foreign student visa program has been exploited as another one of these alternative channels to bring in all of these cheap foreign students, and that's tied to the optional practical training program. and i think it's interesting again to note that these calls are coming from the democratic line, and the independent line and the republican line. and we really think that we've struck a nerve here, because if all we do, if all we can serve to do is amplify these voices of america's best and brightest who have -- this is not news to them. but what this is is really a

wake-up call to the beltway, to those crapweasels, i'll say it one more time on c-span, to talk about this collusion. and i think that this is really one of key issues, the it's a breakout issue for this presidential campaign cycle. because it's talking about how the donorrist class has bought both parties. and the testimony on ground from workers like this engineer shows two things. not only are these american workers being devastated, but of course all of the h-1b vis a vis holders -- visa holders who are used as indentured servants and are being exploited as well needs to be shown too, so we have a whole chapter on that. very perverse practices, and they call them names like handcuffing and body shopping. and really, of course, sabotaging the original intelligent of the program in the fist place -- intent of the program in the first place. >> host: is there any

relationship between this book and your earlier book this year which was on innovators and american manufacturers? >> guest: that is a really good question, and the answer is, yes. in part, i've been thinking about delving into this issue for a long time because, of course, my first book was in 2002, "invasion," which was about the illegal immigration aspect. all along i'd wanted to get here, and it really was just providential that the two of us were able to get together on this. but when i talked to anthony -- [inaudible] the head of mag lite flash light, when we talked about this back in may, he was such a fierce proponent of american companies hiring american workers. and this is an immigrant who came here from croatia for the american dream. he refused to outsource. he knew that the best and brightest were right in southern california. and really that just spurred me to tell the other side of the story. these two weeks, i -- books, i think, are flip sides of the same coin. >> host: jenny here in the suburbs, michelle malkin, john

miano, co-authors, "sold out." >> caller: i'm really, really glad i have a chance to speak to you, and to the host, please don't cut me off. we just went through an election cycle, and the polling, the phone calling from the different candidates, and one of the things that was really stressed about how our american students are so undereducated and that we really need to compete with india and china, and, you know, i'm talking about the democratic party telling me how our students aren't really getting the math education early enough. well, you know, then they go ahead and say about they can't compete in the work environment because of their lack of education. and i happen to know because i have children who actually are educated as, you know, engineers and really real world of what

they go through. and what i saw was, you know, they're saying that, you know, we have to compete. and i'm, like, what about the kids who are graduating from the top universities in the state of virginia? why don't you take your message about how undereducated these kids are as they graduate and go on to graduate school in degrees in engineering, in degrees in physics, and they can't get jobs. but yet you've got people who are being brought in. we have -- >> host: all right. jenny, we've got a lot there on the table. michelle malkin, any response for her? >> guest: that's as trenchant a commentary i've heard on this entire issue. more trenchant, of course, than anything you'll hear from most of these candidates who continue to buy into myth of the american tech worker shortage. and at the same time, they're doing the bidding of these companies who want to staple green cards to every foreign student visa.

and, you know, even among the candidates who are sounding the sanest on this -- donald trump, for for example -- we point out that he's got a terrific immigration reform plan not only on illegal immigration and the southern border, but also with regard to h-1b, the most detail thed, the most detailed we've seen. he consulted with someone who we think has his head screwed on straight, jeff sessions. but even donald trump has sort of paid lip service to this american tech worker shortage and talked about need to import untold numbers of these foreign students. there's another aspect of the education part of this too that we delve into in the donor chapter, because you have bill gates wanting to open up the floodgates to h-1bs. and with another side of his tongue, talking about how we need common core. and common core k of course, sports the myth that there's an

american tech worker shortage. and in the meantime, what is it really doing? a lot of the independent academics who are behind the scenes here in d.c. where all the back room deals were cut on that racket say all it will do is lower standards particularly now in math and science which they're working on. so in essence, he would take this common core scheme which he's poured hundreds of millions of dollars into and actually puts american students at the disadvantage that they're not at now. >> host: from your book, clinton foundation donor and corporate mogul donald trump vaulted to the front of the gop pack in the top of the polls in 2015 by spotlighting brutal crimes by illegal aliens against americans. but while vowing to build a trump wall on the southern border, the celebrity apprentice star also espoused a path toward legalization for illegal aliens he deemed outstanding, a path to

citizenship, in other words, that sounds a lot like the amnesty path of his rivals. linda's calling in from knoxville, democrat. hi, linda. >> caller: hi. i'm another liberal democrat who never thought i'd be agreeing with michelle malkin about anything -- [laughter] but on this one, we do. there was an episode of "the west wing "about this in the mid 2000s that dealt with h-1b visas, and it also fingered congress as the villain. there are so many things here. i'm a high-tech worker. these people who are coming in on the visas are victims too. you mentioned that a little bit earlier, right after i called. and what they -- these people, what they want more than anything is to stay. they have to be here. so this makes them ripe for all kinds of exploitation. the salaries that they are

purported to be getting, they don't get those salaries. half of that is skimmed off by the agencies they have to go to on the way here to get here. and if they make any kind of waves about it, don't pay it, they never get a chance to stay or to come back -- >> host: linda, what kind of work do you do. >> caller: i would, should -- i don't really want to tell you. >> host: then you don't have to. don't worry about it. let's get a response about this agency issue from john miano. >> guest: well, most of these companies are coming through -- most of these aliens are coming through companies that are in the business of importing workers and basically taking a cut off the top of the salary. and that's not the way the system is supposed to work. but one of the things i'd like to, you know, say, we have a liberal democrat here, we probably have had conservative republicans speak. this is an issue that, essentially, everyone in america agrees to except in a small elite. and yet while, you know, liberals, conservatives, moderates all agree that americans should not be replaced

by foreign workers, most of the presidential candidates right now support replacing americans with foreign workers. i mean, it's shocking. >> guest: and, actually, of course, this is broken out into the open now, and we'd like to think that part of it is sort of the "sold out" effect of the open warfare that you have between cruz and rubio over issues like this. cruz is rightly attacking marco rubio more all the water that he carried on the gang of eight bill. and then, of course, rubio points out -- as we did in the book -- that until recently ted cruz had supported the quintupling of the h-1b visa program. i think our shared attitude about it is if everybody gets to the right position, if every one of the gop candidates, well, the democrat candidates too -- that's not going to happen -- adopted jeff sessions' platform on reforming h-1b, if we could finally produce some kind of real results, not just fake, phony be, so-called reform over

true comprehensive, pro-american immigration enforcement reform, then we'd be pretty happy with that. >> host: jim at fern hollow tweets in, michelle malkin ragging on nasty, evil corporations and the left still hates her? gosh. [laughter] and jodi says: michelle malkin, you have finally woken up. there are liberals saying the same thing. union people, you know? susan is also calling from knoxville this morning on our independent line. >> caller: hi. >> host: hi. >> caller: nice to talk to you. this is a real burning issue and has been for some time among tech people, and quite a few people in my family are in engineering, physics, so on. so i've known about it. but also this is happening in health care. so such as physical therapists, physical therapy assistants. there are pockets in knoxville where all the hospitals'

physical therapists and the aides are all from the philippines. yet i know two families whose girls have gotten out of physical therapy school and can't get a job. so this is true in so many industries, and it's so detrimental to the united states. it really needs to be a big issue. >> host: either of you? >> guest: all i can say, the h-1b is primarily used in the tech industry, but it is used in all industries as well. and as you said, physical therapists is one, doctors, even accountants. so the damage is very widespread. >> guest: yes. and teachers too. we actually have a section in the book that talks about that. and, you know, fun fact about h-1b, you know, it's sold on capitol hill as, you know, for these bright specialty workers who are entrepreneurial who are

going to come here and create new businesses, you'll hear this propaganda from h-1b promoters on both sides of the aisle all the time. and yet it covers things like supermodels. [laughter] and there's an interesting special interest story behind that too. >> host: "sold out" is the name of the book, and donald is in south bend, indiana. democrat. >> caller: yeah. i'm sitting here watching this, and i'm, i'm just skeptical of ms. malkin's -- i don't know, i'm just skeptical. i mean, i've seen you talk a lot of times on fox news, and i don't know what to make of all this. now, okay, primarily the reason why i called is because, well, what do you expect? i mean, that's capitalism as you and your friends on fox have been trying to tell us in labor

that if a company wants to come in, i mean, if they want to hire somebody at a low cost, i mean, labor is cost. you know? forget about their people and everything, they have families. they don't care. it's about cost. so now that it's happening to people who are working -- and don't get me wrong, you know, we need programmers and etc., people with white collar jobs, careers. but now that it's happening to them, well, you know, hey, you know, welcome to my world, you know? >> guest: well, a couple of things. we challenge the leaders of the h-1b racket and the funders and the promoters of it across party lines. and i don't agree with everybody at fox news about everything,

and i know that rupert murdoch probably doesn't agree with what i'm saying, and yet i've gone on as many venues, and we've tried to reach out to as many people as possible. we already addressed the fact that this isn't any kind of capitalism in the form that i ever support, and i've long been an outspoken critic of the kind of crony deals that we see not only with regard to h-1b, but whether it's green cronyism, the cronyism that was embedded in the health care bill. and i think that this is where there are shared, shared interests among so many of the callers that we've already heard from. i understand he's skeptical. he thinks that i have an agenda. but the fact is as a journalist who's been out of the closet for, as a conservative for 25 years, you can take my biases and judge them against the evidence in the book. just judge the evidence.

we cite everything, we urge everybody to do their homework. not just the journalists near washington who should be covering it better, all of those campaigns out there that are crusading for the american dream and the american worker, but, you know, it's important as a functioning of a healthy republic that citizens be informed. and this is our educational and evangelical mission. >> host: john miano, this tweet from i love politics: h-1b lies told by ceos to congress can, u.s. workers are not available, not able to do the work, unwilling to take the jobs. >> guest: he's basically summed up the nonsense. you know, one of the things that we haven't mentioned, i used to be a computer programmer. so i saw what these callers and what the tweeters are saying firsthand. right now if you are trying to find a computer programming job, it will be really tough. >> host: why? >> guest: because they just simply aren't out there, and they're not being advertised. i go, every so often i go on to

dice.com to go look for computer jobs in my area. it's rare you find any. occasionally it's one or two, and only listings are through agencies, you know, submit a resumé, and maybe we'll submit it to someone else. very few real jobs that i can actually find. so if i were back as a computer programmer, it would be really tough. >> host: dana, chico, california. republican. hi, dana. >> caller: yes. your guests have done a really good job of explaining the problem, and it's an eye-opening thing for me to know about all of this. but my question is, what is the solution? is the solution to force companies to raise wages so that they're forced to pay everybody those high wages? would that cut down or help the problem? or is the problem education? what's the problem?

and how -- what's the solution? >> host: michelle malkin. >> guest: well, before you fix a problem, you have to know just how bad it really is. and that was the purpose of the book, to really shake people and wake them up to the depth of the problem. and we have our own comprehensive immigration enforcement reform plan. it's the very, very last section of the book. and it takes a comprehensive look at what needs to be done on many, many levels. i think the immediate thing that the next president should do is should put a moratorium on all of these programs and reassess how exactly they're working, who's being hurt. of course, it's hard to do anything with regard to the foreign guest worker rackets when you've got upwards of 30 million illegal ill a yens -- aliens here with the government

having no way to track them down and make sure that people who should leave have already left. and then john can address some of the reforms with regard to h-1b, but, you know, the problem of dual intent is one of them. and making sure that the prevailing wage is actually the prevailing wage. >> guest: well, the caller was asking what he could do. the first thing is be informed. and one of the things about doing the book is you could explain things that i could not possibly explain on this show. for example, we talk about how regression analysis is used to come up with these bogus statistics about h-1b visas creating a job. you know, that's one or two college lectures. i could put -- we could put that in the book and explain to you how they get these numbers. so you can, so from the book -- and this is a shameless plug, i guess, but you can get informed about what's happening and understand the whole scope of the problem. and then once you know the problem, vote. you know?

find out where your congressman, where your senator stands on these issues. and if you're senator and congressman, support replacing americans with foreign workers, vote them out. and call your congressman. write your congressman and senators. let them know you don't support replacing americans with foreign workers. same thing with the presidential candidates, you know? let rubio and company know you do not support replacing americans with foreign workers. >> host: and from "sold out," a quote by former representative tom davis on big tech's push to eliminate h-1b caps altogether. quote: this is not a popular bill with the public, it's popular with the ceo withs. ceos. and jim in lodi, ohio, on our independent line, you're the last caller for our guests. >> caller: well, thank you. good morning, all of you. i never realized really how big the problem is, but it's very personal to me, and i believe that she's right, michelle, that

both the immigration laws and these problems that you brought out here are, you know, they're interrelated. and the reason is that my wife an immigrant. she stood in line, and she came from korea. we got married, and i had to wait for her for two years to be able to get here. she finally became a citizen, and we had two daughters. one is now a, she was a high-up, you know, high-up graduate at purdue as an engineer. she's 30 years old now and gone back to nursing school because she can't get a job that she'd like to have with her degree. my other daughter is a international politics and journalism, and right now she's working on computers because she can't find what she would like to do. and i knew there was a problem, but i never realized just how bad it is. >> host: all right, jim. thank you very much for calling. final word from each of you,

john miano. >> guest: well, this book describes a problem that, essentially, everyone can agree on, and i hope not just from, you know, the intrinsic interest in promoting the book, but this is an issue that's been near and dear to my heart for 20 years, and, you know, this has been a labor of love to get it out to the public so you can see what i've been fighting for for 20 year withs. and i hope that -- years. and i hope that you'll read it and will join the fight with me. >> guest: there seems to me, like, a "kumbaya" moment on c-span, to have had so many folks call in, you know, across party lines who understand just how daunting this problem is. and i really want to underscore what john said about translating this to votes. i mean, that's where the power is here. and we tell the story of dave

spratt here in virginia who was able to topple eric cantor and all of the money -- much of it coming from big tech propaganda who wants the gang of eight bill. it's extraordinary. we see that as a sign of hope that it can be done, that the people's voice, workers' voice can be heard. and just to address the caller as a last thing, i think it just underscores another thing that's so important particularly to me, and that is the idea that we can, so many of us can unite behind this message that pro-american is not anti-immigrant. >> host: and finally, this tweet from k.q., thank you so much. you transformed this democrat mid summer about garage inventers, your earlier book. no hashtag h-1b, hash american lives matter. thanks for being on the program. >> guest: thanks for having us. >> guest: thank you, peter. >> you're watching booktv, television for serious readers. watch any program you see here

online at booktv.org. >> republican candidate for president mike huckabee discussed his book, "god, guns, grits and gravy" earlier this year on booktv's author interview program "after words." >> here's the point of the book. there are three major cultural bubbles in america; new york, washington -- we're in two of those -- and the other one is hollywood. and from those three cultural bubbles emanate fashion, finance, government, politics, music, entertainment, movies, television. pretty much all the things that set the american cultural table. but my point of the book is that there's a big disconnect between the people, the values, the attitudes, the lifestyles of people living in those three bubbles and the people who live out in what we often call the flyover country.

all of that red area between the east and west coast that if you look at an electoral map apart from a few urban centers is vastly red. and in that great divide can, that fly beover country -- flyover country exists what i call the land of god, guns, grits and gravy, and it's just a descriptive term, a flyover country. the book really does two things. it says to all those folks out there, you're not alone. there are a lot of folks like you, and you're okay. you're not nuts. and it say toss the people who are living -- says to the people who are living in the bubbles, hey, here's who we are. you don't really know us. you don't know what drives us, what makes us think, what's important to us or why it's important to us. so read the book. maybe you'll find out these good old boys aren't so dumb after all. >> 2015 coming to a close, many publications are announcing their selections for best books of the year. here's a look at a few that made "the new york times"' 10 to 0

notable books -- 100 notable books list. charlotte jay jacobs recalls the life of jonas salk. katherine e den and luke schafer explore poverty in the united states. margo jefferson made this year's new york times list of 100 notable books for her memoir, negroland, in which she recalls growing up among the black elite. polish author reveals those responsible for the massacre of jewish residents of a small polish town in 1941 in "the crime ask the silence." and in destiny and power, john meacham looks at the life of former president george h.w. bush. >> he goes to him, and baker says to him, well, i want to be a congressman. i think you're just using this as a steppingstone to the senate. and george h.w. bush says, no, no, i'm not using this as a steppingstone to the senate, i want to be president. ..