on although it was the cold war in the sense that there was the threat of military conflict, throughout its existence, it was the non-war, the single non-war, the third world war which could have obliterated human and animal life on the entire planet. >> that's a look at some of the books "the wall street journal" recommends from over the past

few. booktv has covered many of these. you can watch the programs on our website, booktv.org. >> good evening. on jennifer raab -- [applause] mpeg extraordinaire privilege of being the president of the phenomenal hunter college. i tonight along with my colleague, the director of rosenhaus i am pleased to welcome you to this discussion about the publishing sensation of the year, or maybe even a decade, "notorious rbg." shout out to our hunter alums were here. raised her hand to make sure your all danger of alumni dues. "notorious rbg" is a book like no other. in the senate reviewed the "new york times" said it is a scrapbook -- a columnist inside of a baby. "notorious rbg" went on so just

last week and when the times bestseller list come out next week and to award reached number seven. [applause] another measure of the books popularity is that we originally planned to hold this event at roseville house but the response was so great we need to move it here for a much larger place. we're delighted about the turnout but in the wasted bandwidth and make the move because the ghost of franklin and eleanor roosevelt that so raises the rent by the former new york resident would've loved the discussion about the lifetimes and accomplishments up with bader ginsburg. it would've been engrossing for eleanor who one might say the notorious rbg of her time, example of what a patient, sadly, tireless defender of women's rights can achieve in the face of enormous resistance. she faced so much hostility in fact that her critics probably would have considered her

notorious, to kind words for. justice ginsburg sees the connection. she has a statute of the nation's greatest first lady and her supreme court chamber in response to an editor's question about whether women should get angry in the face of injustice she invokes eleanor roosevelt's wife's advice. anger, resentment, envy, these are emotions that just zap your energy. they are not productive and don't take any place, so get over it. what those words revealed to me is the steely determination, the reason a book about is having such a big impact, especially on women. we have to remember when she entered harvard law school in 1956 she was one of just nine women in a class of 500. and what is surely one of the low points in our history the school being asked of those women why they thought they were

right to take the places that men should have had. enthusiasm for justice ginsburg takes many wonderful, imaginative forms. people are sending her supreme court dissents into media. our image usually wearing a gold crown shows that everywhere from cartoons to t-shirts to tattoos. speaking of rbg called transcend that is, imagine if roosevelt aspect has a range of many of you in the audience to get these tattoos tonight. but they are only temporary so don't get too excited. all of this excitement began with a website that is done become a book, "notorious rbg: the life and times of ruth bader ginsburg." shana knizhnik and irin carmon, the greatest of notorious rbg are with us this evening to talk about it, leaving them in the conversation will be one of the great minds of our time, jeffrey

toobin. i know firsthand that he is a great mind because we are in the same class of law school and is always a sing it. there could be no better one, knowing that deleted this conversation that just because it's a lawyer turned journalist who has devoted his career to eliminating the world about the law. he is cnn's senior legalist analysts as a staff writer for "the new yorker" and has covered the major legal stories of the air including a nomination for for a rpgs colleagues on the supreme court. his book about the secret world, the supreme court, was a bestseller as was his most recent book about the obama white house and the court. we all look forward to his next book about patty hearst, known as urban guerrilla. it's a pleasure to have them all here together for this incredible conversation. welcome, jeffrey toobin, to start the evening. [applause] >> hello, everyone. how's everybody doing lex all

right. just get out here. it's late already. come on. there we go. [cheers and applause] best selling authors. drinking champagne backstage, so they should. let's just get started. tell them what started the delay spent i am currently working for a judge in philadelphia, and i have not stopped moving since ibm comes out on the train, got off the train, got on a train and a pioneer. >> i am deeply committed to the law. >> here we go. with you to ginsburg, she's 82, she's by the supreme court for 22 years. wino? what is going on just become this cult figure now? >> women are drawn to prevent people in particular are drawn to her. i think that she's someone who's

been doing the work of social justice for her entire life. and -- >> there's a homing and the microphone. anyway, go ahead. >> i started a blog, notorious rbg blog, notorious rbg in the summer of 2013. it was in response to a number of dissenting opinions that she wrote in cases deal with employment discrimination, affirmative action and what a particular theme with the voting rights act, a case called shelby county v. holder. i do somewhat better case to on earth is amazing what one whose voice was sort of the light amidst all the anger, with the majority of the payments were doing in that week. what better way to honor on the internet than by juxtaposing her with this larger than life hip-hop icon, and i think that people are drawn to her because she's someone that you would not expect to be that sort of larger than life figure. >> you know, i'm not totally,

all of that is true but it was all true 10 years ago. like what, come on, i need some more. i'm not sure i totally am persuaded yet. >> there needed to be, the old gatekeepers needed to be swept away. there needed to be an ability -- >> people like me essentially. go ahead. spend you are a friend. i owe you a lot. i really think that if you give a young women the ability to you be surprised what you see. i think people like the counterintuitive end of it and they can see something in her, they can see authenticity, strength, fierceness, a commitment to liberal values. i mean, frustration is the tool of the internet, right? hearing her dissent at a time, she would prefer to be in the majority. she would prefer to be writing an opinion that's good shape the

course of the law for the entire country, but given that more often than not it is important cases that was mentioned she wasn't dissenting. it's kind of prefer the social media age where people go to event -- to vent their frustration dealing marginalized and they can rally behind the fact that on the highest court of the land here is this woman, she's representing. >> so we started at the end. let's go to the beginning. who is she? who is ruth bader ginsburg? talk about her background spent she grew up in brooklyn purchase board in 1933. she grew up in a jewish neighborhood when at a time when other kids who were not jewish were upgraded jewish kids coming to her home, come to their homes for fear, or vice versa. they were afraid of going to jewish of going to jewish people people's homes because they're afraid they're going to put blood in the food. so i think that experience and

other experiences of marginalization about her life really colored or worldview. she grew up at a time, she saw mark, or she saw, you know, the red hair happening around us to give her a real commitment to civil liberties. and, of course, she experienced sex is about her entire life into something she didn't even question. growing up, i was born in 1988, and imagining what she went through was absolutely astonishing for me, for people my age and especially people younger. to her and people of her generation wasn't even something you questioned. >> and she lost her mother at a young age. so even in the context of the world that was different and more difficult, she had a bit particularly rough. >> and i think she saw the star of her mother as kind of a tragedy of wasted opportunity. >> explained a little more. >> should refer to her mother as

a most intelligent person that i ever knew. her mother had cervical cancer. when her mother married her father, she gave up any work that she done outside the home and the conservatives in house bookkeeper. by the time she was about 14, her mother had cancer. she didn't have anybody at school. she didn't want anybody to feel sorry for her. she would go and do her homework by her mother's bed, and her mother always want to make sure that she had raised report cards. she got great report cards. the day before high school graduation where we was scheduled to speak as part of the honors circled and this one my favorite details, she was the treasurer and coeditor there's a couple people who change their twitter bios to treasurer of the go-getters. the day before with was going to speak as one of these testing which people in her class, her mother died.

and i think it's something that shaped her entire life, trying to do what her mother was not able to do. trying to make sure that of the people were able to use the potential and the way her mother had not been able to be. in fact, usually when she stood in front of the country nominated by bill clinton, she invoked her mother as she said she wished her mother had lived to see a day where we value our daughters as equally as we value our sons. >> so she goes to cornell and she meets my husband may become as she says. this is an extraordinary partnership. that continues until his death. talk about the relationship. is pretty extraordinary spent i think extorted is the right word. it was entirely ahead of its time. marty ginsburg was a role model to the men of his generation because feminism was happening to women's liberation is

happening in the street and the world was changing. marty ginsburg for some reason was ahead of the game. they were so equal in the partnership, not just when it came to taking care of the children. he was the primary cook for the family. ruth bader ginsburg has not cook anything since 1980 is our understanding. >> fact checked. [laughter] and also when it came to decorate. marty ginsburg was a prominent tax attorney to go to graduate from harvard law school although he was quick to point out that his wife made law review and he didn't. but he became a prominent tax attorney, very well-known in his field, but so they both had to give and take when it came to their careers. was actually left harvard law school for her third year. that's why she transferred to columbia because marty got a job in downtown new york. >> and again in keeping with the theme of adversity, while his in law school he gets cancer.

>> that's right. he actually typed up his notes. she would type up his papers for them, all while doing her work and taking care of jane, just a toddler at the time. her daughter. and she moved to newark because of him and she did want to separate the family coming harvard actually would not let her of being a harvard degree as result of that. they wouldn't let her spend her third year in colombia's osha to transfer. she did okay. >> it worked out okay for her. [laughter] ..

the editors of the harvard law record said the wife of mrs. ginsberg is a federal judge and a professor at colby a law school. imagine what she could have accomplished if she had gotten a harvard degree. [laughter] >> that's pretty good. so they moved to new york, she starts her career. what is her career? >> it is something so fascinating. u.s. this question who is ruth bader ginsburg? looking at the early part of her life you see someone who experienced adversity. she really, really had a lot of door slammed in her face. she was a woman, a mother, and the jew. those are three strikes against her. yet, early in in her life she did not question anything. it wasn't until the late 60s

when she was trying to become a civil procedure professor at a law school. it took her students questioning , these baby boomers showing up at saint it is not okay the way women are treated here. i think that's an interesting thing. the phenomenon we're talking about is an intergenerational phenomenon. i like to think about that justice ginsburg herself became a feminist because of the younger generation. >> because there is a period in her life which is quite interesting. between law school and when she starts litigating women's right cases. it is not short. of time. it is a decade. more than a decade. decade. she does not do anything particularly political, she writes a book, it sounds like you're making this up about swedish civil procedure. as much as i have researched the supreme court, i sure you i've

never read her book. >> my favorite is was called the best english language book on swedish civil procedure. >> she she likes to say a given that point, that if she had not had these doors slammed in her face when she graduated from law school she couldn't get a job at any law firm even though she was top of her classic lumbee at harvard. she would say that had not happened to her she probably would have gone to a law firm and become a partner. because. because of the door slamming interface, because she was offered to do this book she went there and saw what was happening there earlier than what was happening in this country. this conversations about feminism and equality were happening there and there's a debate going on about white women had to have two jobs and men only had to have one.

so i think that also affected her worldview and a very serious way. when she came back she did not want law firm jobs anymore. she took a teaching position at rutgers. >> and eventually she became the first tenured woman at columbia. >> just one more thing about sweden, i imagine there are people in the room that said, why can't we be more like sweden, because they have like ten year long maternity leave. they have amazing social insurance. i think had justice ginsburg not gone to sweden, the world would look very different. i think i think i gave her particular view on feminism. you mention why should men and women have two jobs in. >> she does eventually get involved in the movement, how.

>> it was the students who came to her and there really were not any courses offered at the time about women in the courts. she had to write and cowrote the first casebook on women in the law. there was something her students were looking for. at the the same time she was teaching juice taking cases with the aclu. >> the aclu as a litigator. that's how she became famous. of the 99 justices on the supreme court, the only one who would have a major place in american history, even had they never served in the supreme court with ruth bader ginsburg, how did that get started? >> i love the story that she shows up at the aclu and new jersey because she wanted to get litigation experience. she she never had any. she is teaching at record. they say there's a pile of letters over there for you. they're all from women. we don't know what to do with

them. the letters are from women, teachers who had been fired for their jobs because their pregnant. they're from military service one, also fire from the jobs because they were pregnant. a postal service worker is not allowed to wear the same hat as men even though women hat does not actually cover her head. all kinds of ways in which the public system and government or states were completely allowing men and women to be treated differently. what's interesting is by the time she got to rutgers she was being discriminated against for being a woman. she was told we cannot possibly pay you as much as a male professor because your husband has a really good job. she became pregnant by surprise. ten years earlier when she first got pregnant she had been demoted and forced out of her job when she got pregnant. this time she was not going to let the same thing happen again.

she goes to her mother-in-law, who wears a size bigger than her, gets baggy clothes and hides her pregnancy. she is so lucky because her son is born on september 8, 3 weeks before the fall semester starts. she did not have tenure. she knew knew what it was like to be in a precarious position and become pregnant. suddenly, there she is a few years later sitting at the aclu of new jersey and these women are experiencing the same thing she experienced. i think that is the moment when she realizes this is not just the thing that i had to deal with, this is systemic. the only way to fix this in a way that is not playing whack a mole, you can send some strongly worded letters, and you can silence people, but that's the moment you realize that if you did not have a broader constitutional understanding that you cannot treat men and

women have if they belonged in separate tears. men were out in the world political actors and women were at home like a pedicel but she said that pedicel is actually a cage. that is when she began her campaign. >> the genius in sight of her litigation career, at least as i have always understood it is that the leading women's right advocate in the history of american law pics of men for clients. why? >> she likes to say, there's a story we tell that at a dinner party someone introduces her and say this is ruth bader against berg she works on behalf of women's liberation and she says actually it's women and men's liberation. that's indicative of her view of feminism which is that it is not just about women achieving these

roles in public society, which is obviously important. in order to dismantle these gender stereotypes, you need to show that men also could do the things that we might consider feminine. >> so give some examples. how did that work. work. >> so she represented clients, mail clients who were trying to be the primary caregiver of their children. getting some sort of benefit from taxes or social security because that or primary caregivers for elderly clients. one of her clients is stephen weiss and field. >> tell that story of the wise and field story. i know this is a huge wider field story. >> people would say she cofounded the aclu women's right project. because she brought brought so many men and clients people would say to her, it's

not that men's right projects is that women's right project. but these even wise and felt he had fallen in love with a woman, she was a teacher, he was in school, so when she became pregnant they decided he would be the primary caregiver of the child was she made the money. he figured out what would happen next. then she died in childbirth. >> i told you, see. >> he was left a widower and that is when he learned that the child care benefits was only available to widows. so this is a case that ruth bader ginsburg brought from the very beginning, from the very start. it started when he wrote a letter to the editor which we reproduced in the book in full. he says, -- so ruth bader

ginsburg finds out about it and brings the case and says this violates his right to equal protection. she also made a multipronged argument. she said violated his rights to be the caregiver to the child. it violated, integrated his wife's wage earning and because she was oh woman, dead woman and not a dead man that hurt work accounted for less. also on behalf of the child that the child was being punished. that that turned out to be the argument that convinced justice rehnquist. it's interesting because people say she brought all these cases to men because she was arguing in front of men. she had to convince them. but what is what is interesting is that if you look at the notes in the oral argument of that case, the

justices cannot figure out why a man would want to do this. they literally wanted to dismiss the case but there's no standing. they do not believe him. that he actually wanted to be the primary caregiver for his son after his wife died. so as not just her choosing something convenient. she was challenging them. this is a woman who, and her first oral argument before the supreme court in 1973, stood in 73, stood in front of the justices and said, i ask for no special favor for my. this is a quote from sarah -- i asked for no special favor for my i only asked that the brethren take their feet off are not. so as much as she -- she was bowl, she was challenging them. she was doing it slowly, deliberately, and rationally but she was pushing on beyond where they have been prepared they had

been prepared to go at the beginning. >> there's also just a genius to , once you start to say that the law can't -- it's wrong and on constitutional to treat men and women differently, it all starts to fall apart. all of the structures. to use discrimination against men as a vehicle, there's another case at all because her case about that access to beer in oklahoma. >> she was not the primary counsel but she helped a lot. >> tell what the case was. >> she called it the thirsty boys case. i think was from oklahoma and there is a lot oklahoma that basically said that there is something called near beer where it was low alcohol content. women, the age that women could purchase that beer was 16 but for men it was 18. so, the men brought this

challenge. so she was sort of embarrassed by the case but again it was another example of the law treating men and women differently. >> all in cases one on tran takes is one case and then he set a precedence. then further down there is a potentially cases more weighty than your beer also has to follow. >> the thing that takes all of the cases it's the idea of stereotyping. the near beer case will it's funny, space on the idea that women were out and dating earlier, that's this idea of women on a pedestal which is actually a cage. all these cases involved an idea of what men are like and what women are like. >> okay, so these cases are all going to the courts in the 70. so is roe v wade. which is. which is still probably the most famous women's right case in

american history, 1973 in the supreme court. she supreme court. she is not involved in that case. in fact, she has a take on roe v wade that has been controversial then, and a still controversial now. >> was. >> was interesting. the same term that the supreme court heard roe v wade justice ginsburg had a case of her own. it was the case of susan struck who was an air force nurse who became pregnant while on active duty. the funny thing is that even though abortion was illegal throat the united states, you could could get an abortion on a military base. not only could you get him abortion on a military base, is basically required if you got pregnant wanted to keep your job. so, susan struck when she got pregnant wanted to give the child up for adoption. she said i'm have disability leave i can just take some sick time off to recover from the childbirth and i will be back. they said you have two choices,

you can have an abortion or you can leave. so justice ginsburg takes a look at the case in she is someone who unconditionally believes that reproductive freedom, including accessing abortion is fundamental tool women's equality. she looked at the case and in the same way she was representing men to try to liberate women under the law, she says great. this is a case where a woman does not want to have an abortion. so we are going to trick them basically, into laying the groundwork for full reproductive intent have in an abortion or not having an abortion. there's -- as she's trying to make it so that all of the discrimination cases fall under the same cases. >> c said roe is a women's rights case, not the way it was

red. she was points out that in fact it was very concerned that the doctors right to practice medicine, of course they were at the mayo clinic so what happens. these two cases cases are traveling at the same time. they told the story about how the first week at the law school griswold summoned the women and asked them to justify their place at harvard law school. how can you justify taking the place of a man, that same current griswold became a general in the united states and was her opponent in that case of susan struck, the women who do did not want to have an abortion. sure is a very nice man but he pops up again and again in the book because he messes up her life. she convinced the military to change the policy. so the case will of susan struck was brought to the supreme court but never heard.

just a few months later. >> of the guy break, that's not a bad thing. they change the policy. >> will because he was afraid of a greater -- >> come on. that's not so bad. mike she is always playing the long game. she wanted susan struck to have the pregnancy she wanted to. this was a plan in the plan to not involved what happened two months later, which is roe v wade struck wade struck down all the bands on abortion in the country all at once. she is someone who likes to go slow. she is deliberate. she did not like that they did it all at once and they believed and it's very controversial and a lot of respected people who easily disagree with her about this. she believed that created the antiabortion movement by giving them a single target. she hated, hated the way the decision was written because it was about a doctors right to practice medicine and she always said and it's the little woman

said standing up to the side. what she wanted was much more radical. she wanted a woman to be recognized as an adult who can make her own decisions, whether that is to bear a child or not. >> these misgivings about roe v wade almost cost her her appointment to the supreme court because support for roe v wade is considered fundamental if you are a prospective democratic appointee. she had served on the d.c. circuit, jimmy carter appoints are very late in the presidency, in those in those days judges appointed late in the presidency actually got confirmed sometimes. >> it judges appointed got confirmed. >> right. so she is on the d.c. circuit from 1980 until 1993. she is no great liberal on that court. why not? what's going on there? >> there? >> she was known as a judges judge. that speaks to another part of her personality which is the

reverence for the law, the institution that she was a part of. part of part of it also is the fact that the d.c. circuit heard a lot of boring cases about agency law but the other part is that she is an incrementalist in a lot of ways. one of of the suggestions she actually made on the d.c. circuit is that all of the judges with opinions would know their name. it's different from this what we see today. but yes,. >> and they do not go for by the way. >> they didn't go for. but when president clinton was considering her for the high court one of the things he said was, women are against her. that is so strange to think about considering. >> but he wasn't wrong. there were a lot of women who had, women who had been involved

in the venice movement who had misgivings. >> i think it's the actually the testaments of who she is, once she is a stubborn person for sure. also, she is a principal person. even though this is a critique that the ally she had been part of business with felt would give fuel to the other side and would have conservatives every week saying things like even ruth bader ginsburg hates roe v wade. obviously, she agreed with the outcome of roe v wade even if she didn't agree with how that got there. i think there was a fear that finally we have a democratic woman, we have an opportunity to get a liberal on the court. so they wanted it to be the right person. that is when marty ginsburg started out bright letter writing campaign. he got every feminist to write a

letter but then one it was time to go to the committee and the senate judiciary committee asked, can i see all of the letters written on behalf of her. the clinton administration said who said to send all of these letters. at that point it was a general election campaign and not primary. >> so she joins the court in 1993. william rehnquist's chief justice, she has been basically in the minority through most, not all of the big cases whether it's bush v gore in 2000, shelby county, hobby lobby, there have been surly some wins but -- the united states versus virginia is perhaps her best-known case that she wrote herself. what is that case question work. >> that case is of her favorites because it gives her a chance to

cite her own cases that she brought before the supreme court. it was the culmination of the work she had done at aclu. that case involved a virginia institute with at that time was a male only military public institution. the case was brought by the united states which she was also very proud of. the fact that the government had to come around on behalf of women who wanted to attend the virginia military institute. so she wrote this opinion citing all of these cases that she had done the oral arguments for, and written all the briefs or that solidified the fact that men and women cannot be treated on equally under the law. >> what else. the vmi cases certainly a very personal landmark for her. what else would you say she is

proudest of the cases she was involved in as a justice? >> she was very proud of the lily case. that began as -- it's a case of a woman who worked her entire career for decades at the goodyear tire plant. one day, she found a note in her locker and it said, this is how much all of the men who started with you have been paid, and this is how much you are paid. well, that is when she realized she was systematically underpaid, she was was sexually harassed for years, she was treated like average, it's a very physically challenging job. this is the time she decided it was time to go to court. title vii of the civil rights act which protects workers in a protected classes from being discriminated against has limitations. lilly was told by the majority of the court that she waited too long.

even though, she had not even known she was being discriminated against. it came down to a technicality. did the discrimination start every time she got a paycheck that was lower than the other employees, who happen to be men? or did it start when she could have asked for a raise way back when and she had no idea what others were making? by this point, their justices on the supreme court who frequently her adversary i cases that she's most passionate about. he wrote a majority opinion and very dry technical majority opinion that said basically you do not have forever to sue. sorry. >> and again not to get too technical, this is, this is not a case about the constitution. this is a case about what the words of the tele seven law means. this is something within congress' ability to change the law. >> that's when justice ginsburg wrote a very deliberately worded

-- it's not one of her most passionate. to me i think think the abortion case in 2007 where shelby county which helps shawna, that those are ones where she is really getting fired. this one she had a very deliberate plan. she says basically that she thinks the law -- sense the court said they waited too long to sue there something to be done. congress can step up. she specifically says the ball is in congress's court. shauna is court. shauna talks about how much she generates institutions, she wanted different branches of government to work together. she had to wait because it was 2007 and bush was president. the following year obama was elected president. someone very dear to her heart, the first law that he signed, the first bill he cited till

law, was the lily pay act. which fix the interpretation of the lot to say that every paycheck to get that reflects discrimination restarts the clarkin opens up the opportunity for you. she said to me when i interviewed her in february, that was an example of congress listening to the court. congress could function, congress could do something. she said to me maybe someday we'll have a congress that works again. obviously we do not right now. but that could happen again. >> she is 82 years old, she has had many diseases but she is tough as any nfl linebacker as far as i can tell. she did she have quit and let brock obama pick her replacement. wasn't it a selfish thing for her to do to jeopardize her seat that president cruz can fill?

[laughter] i think she is in fact a fighter. >> she's had cancer twice i actually visited her chamber and she had a heart procedure done about a week before i got there. i'm/i i was not i would be able to go. when i asked her that what i could tell her followers on my tumbler, she said tell them that i will be back doing push-ups next week. so, i think that speaks to her tenacity. she is not want to quit. when it comes to her position i think she has a lot of fight left in her, both physically and in terms of the work she is dedicated her life to. she receives a lot of criticism for her choice not to step down. but she has ten year.

it is perfectly within her right to make that choice. when she said who's going to be appointed in this climate to stand up for those issues that i stand up for. >> excuse me, that's a load of nonsense. look, i love ruth bader ginsburg to but the idea that they cannot confirm someone just like me so i'm going to stay here until i die? does that make any sense. >> let's be fair though. john paul stevens was about a decade older when he got fired. granted he had cancer but i think he's still playing tennis. >> he still is that 95. >> she is doing 20 push-ups at age 82. i think mentally she is astounded she ever was. i grew through, it was very high-stakes

decision. one high-stakes decision. one that is too late to reverse. i think we should see this and they contacts, retiring during a democratic administration is a politically savvy move. but she is stubborn and believes in doing what is right. she is committed to her job. i think she's unable to imagine a life outside of her job, what would she do question archie already goes to the theater almost every night. she already travels all over the world. she is passionately committed to the work of the court and i think she is still bringing with it the same fierceness that shares always did. i think it's interesting that the internet sensation in the the passion on the internet that shauna tumbler tapped into as convicts buy things that an fear the thrill and ruth bader ginsburg mail are and rap videos and ruth bader

ginsburg halloween costumes, ruth bader ginsburg tattoos, which she does not like, she told me. i think that all happen just as everyone was telling her it was time to go. it was not coordinated but i think that young woman saw an old woman being pushed off the stage. an old woman being told we do not need you anymore. nothing there were not good reasons to make sure that for 40 years there'll be a justice in that seat. i don't think it's a coincidence and i think that our society is currently better rating a woman that is 82 years old is incredible. a moment to stop and reflect of how older women are so invisible in our society is so used to being told, it's time to move on because it someone else's term. [applause].

>> before we go to questions, i do not want to end and talk too much about marty and not enough about ruth, but there's externa document in your book which i have marked that marty was dying of cancer in john hopkins hospital and ruth found this letter that he did not even give to her. she just found it in her drawer. when you read it. >> of goodness, i might cry. i want to tell the story of this letter first because we first read it in a profile. >> thank you, i got that first, i'm very pleased about that. >> justice ginsburg believes in giving credit so do we. so that's that's why this is the only book that has 50 pages of endnotes. the thing that we wanted because

the book had this format we wanted the original, i also wanted to beat you a little bit. so we are trying hard to get the original, we made several polite requests and nothing really happened then literally two days before the book went to press we are given a final draft to her son to look over for factual errors relating to their family. he said, you know i think the book is great but i don't understand why you put my dad's letter and that weird font. why don't you have the original. and i said what we would love the original, funny you should say then we got a letter from justice ginsburg and he said dear lynn and shauna, my son but you should have this, i hope you can use it it felt like such a

gift from her. she she has been so generous about the entire process although it is not an authorized biography. it felt like here's this intimate present from her that we are able to use. >> it was the day before the book went to press. if it came the day after it would've been too late. >> the letter is written like a day or two before he dies. enough build up okay. >> this is june 17, 2010. my dearest ruth, you're the only person i have loved in my life, setting aside parents, kids, and their kids and i have admired and loved you almost since the day we first met at cornell some 56 years ago. here i have to note that when we got the original, we saw that she had corrected him in the margins. [laughter] she wrote, nearly 60. that woman is very precise.

what a treat it has been to watch you progress to the very top of the legal world. i will be a jh medical center until friday june 25i believe. between that and now i shall think hard on my remaining health and life and about the balance in the time has come to tough it out and take a leave of life because the loss of quality simply overwhelms. i hope you will support right, but i understand you may not. i will love you not a drop less, marty. wow! okay we have some questions. >> we just say one more thing about marty because we have talked a lot about this how to say that the person is political but something we try to do in the book is to trace how the

experiences of her life informed her policy. i think the fact that fact that she was able to have what shauna describes as extraordinary marriage in which they could both flourish, they could both see themselves fully free from gender stereotype gave her an essential optimism about the world. think it made her optimistic about the male. and the and your capacity to improve. [laughter] [applause]. >> the triumph and hope over experience i guess. >> there are microphones these lights are such that i cannot see but now the lights, who has a question? anyway, just ask away. please ask us ask us questions do not give a speech. >> are you there? >> i was going to ask a question about what roe v wade was really about what i'm curious about her

opinion on roe v wade is in contrast with the recent decision on gay marriage that kennedy wrote that she joined the majority of. in many ways it's very similar on imposing national standard the country just as roe v wade has and she criticized roe v wade for doing that. i just wanted if there been anything from her as to why she sees that differently than roe v wade? >> i think part of it is that she has always looked at social movements and culture to change before the law does. so she thought there is work to do to change culture for the women's movement in 1973 when roby way came down. so when it first came down that was in the defense of the

marriage act the country had changed is what she had said. people had gotten to know gay people and lesbians and it was no longer a foreign concept. the law actually had to catch up. >> i think another part of that is another thing she learned from marty and her experience about marriage is knowledge that marriage could be a locality area and constitution. she interrupted the oral argument the litigants to say that you keep talking about traditional marriage but traditional marriage has a very high arc girl structure with a man atop a woman on the bottom but as she experienced in her own marriage that traditional marriage does not exist anymore. i think that experience and her work on behalf of gender equality as well was a big part of her decision to join the majority of the gay marriage

cases because it shattered gender stereotypes about marriage itself. >> but she was skeptical about whether the court shouldn't pose gay marriage on the whole country what right away. and very much reflecting, when i did that piece and interviewed her at length, you could tell personally she thought gay people should have the right to get married, but she was worried about the court getting too far ahead. i think it 2015 has turned out to be a very different place than 2010 was on this issue. >> keep in mind that they sent back, at the time they had the choice to validate it okay continue with more questions. >> hi, think of you this is but a great panel and discussion. my question is about the scalia ginsburg friendship.

i understand that legal issues and personal issues can be aside but also understand the closeness of a friendship. >> you know they go way back. they were friends before either of them were judges at all. justice ginsburg would tell the story when she first saw justice scalia speak them professor schooley as she disagreed with every point he was making but she thought he was hilarious. so, i think that is what it really comes down to. she finds him really charming. i think there is a connection between marty ginsburg and justice scalia who were both these are garry's character. he is a very clever person. i interviewed justice ginsburg's grandson for the book. he told the story of how they

would always spend new year's together with all of the scalia kids. i asked him. >> by the way, that's nine kids right. i think i actually thought it was some combination of 11 kids, i don't think you know exactly. >> i asked if the two of them ever talked about politics and he said no what would there be to talk about. >> i had opportunity to go to the premier this summer and she loves the opera. she has this obsession with people being friends and their political differences. i think anyone who spent all the years that she spent on the circuit, i think they understand that you do not get very far in that world if you just verbally or physically punch someone in the face for disagreeing with you. it's survival mode.

and you need at least one other judge to vote with you. i think she did not get to where she is being almost the only woman by being disagreeable the funny thing is, she came to the premier of scalia and ginsburg but justice kalil was not there. he is introduced to the audience and the guy was wearing these big eyebrows, it was very funny i didn't see when he was interviewed and asked about her said there is a person in there. [laughter] >> thank you for taking the time to speak with us today. i was hoping hoping you, on the fact that the court is so incredibly secretive yet you have all make careers a major self famous by exposing the court to the media. what do you think the role of the media on the court going to be going forward?

>> the same. this can be look, justice stevens always like to say people call a secretive, it's really the only part of the government that right down the reason for everything that we do. [laughter] so i think that's clever but it's also nonsense. just in terms of the baby steps, obviously an issue that hangs out is cameras in the court, television i'm writing a book now that is about the both said in their confirmation hearing they said, zero we hear, cameras cameras in the courtroom are good idea. now having been captured by the

other seven they're very concerned about the institutional reputation of the courts. they do not want to do anything to damage it which is something i respect in the abstract. i don't think know if it's likely but it is possible in the next five years is that they will start streaming the audio of the argument live on the internet. i think it would be a very good thing. they release the argument audio at the end of the week which for journalistic purposes is useless. as they know, so i think they will take certain baby steps. their view is if it is not broke, don't fix it. they are not interested in fixing it. >> i was in my experience is such, covering the court it

actually hurts the coverage the way things are now. they basically strip strip searching for electronics when you go in. then a lot of the seats were the press sit, you can even see the justices. you're frantically writing everything down in longhand. on the big cases once over your run outside and try to be the first person to tweet accurately about what happened. that does not lend itself to good journalism. a lot of people in the world to cannot sit in the courtroom who want to know what's going on. so i think five streaming audio would fix that. scalia would not be in front of the cameras i may are ready are so theatrical is funny. >> i don't agree about courtrooms and the courtroom i think they should do it tomorrow. you have to change the lighting, it would be different. but audio would change nothing. they have microphones in front of them.

would be absolutely identical. speemac's question maybe it should be the last question i think i'm getting the signal. >> i was scalia question talk about ideology, we'll have ideological differences i can get along but he is so condescending to women. >> can we take a question from a woman? [laughter] it's interesting because justice scalia does something that justice ginsburg would never do and he has healthy opponents all the time. i think the condensation is part of that. he said when justice kennedy was basically a bad writer and an idiot. i don't think the supreme court justice have egos, i don't know

if anyone will change their vote based on people's behavior. but i note ginsburg hopes that some people are relatable. >> can you go to the microphones everyone can hear you. >> i may buy your book if i can have some sense of how the justices determine which cases to take each year. >> at the high steak answer. >> and what role does ruth bader ginsburg play in the decision to take a case? >> i'm not know if i'm extremely qualified to answer that question as a recent regimen of law school and not a court

watcher. but they get way to many cases for them to possibly take. it's really about figuring out what the most important ones are. some, most of the cases are not hot button issues and are not exciting. one of the reasons why case will be before the court is because the lower courts have decided an issue in different way so the supreme court needs to resolve that. as far as the major issues and off i can speak for. >> i just want to at the point because everyone in this room, and the next few weeks we will hear about the very for important cases that they're picking up that we should all be paying attention to. in particular, one is a sequel to hobby lobby. that we should hear about any day. that's another case that pits women's right contraception

against workers rights. another is cases that come from kate taxes in mississippi. there trying to shut down abortion clinics and the question will be, will they take the case, and if they do we should have a decision just a few months before the presidential election. it is going to be a question of, doesn't violate a woman's constitutional right to shut down every clinic in her state if you say it's to protect her? so we don't know what role ginsburg will have in these cases but we do know there is a lot of at stake. we learned that she wears a special collar, so next june there will be no camera in the

court but if anyone sitting in the room and a liberal is not want to see that dissenting, come june. okay. >> i have to make one point before we go. christmas is coming, hanukkah is coming, the notorious art vg is for sale after this program. it makes an excellent present. for whatever holiday you choose. and i hope you'll go sign the copies for you. i hope hope you'll join me in faking them. [applause]. none on.

[inaudible] [inaudible] >> this is book to be on c-span two. television for serious readers. here's our primetime lineup. at 6:45 p.m. eastern jean wayne miller gives a history of the automobile. starting at 7:30 p.m. harvard professor lawrence lessig describes political corruption in the presidential campaign process. then at nine eastern on afterwards, nurse and new york times columnist teresa brown talks about patient care. at 10:00 p.m. brian and don yeager talk about thomas jefferson and the tripoli pirates. we wrap up book to be a prime time with jennifer lawless, she talks about her book, running from office, why

young americans are turned off to politics. that is at 11:00 p.m. eastern. that all happens tonight on c-span2 book tv. >> longtime white house reporter abel ryan has written a book called the presidency in black-and-white. abel ryan how long have you been covering the white house and why do you write about it? spee2 i've been covering the white house for 18 years. i write about it because it is very important. people need to know what is happening at the seat of power. the leader of the free world, what is he doing, what is happening. especially now the first black president, it's beyond him getting the picture taken writing some bill or signing a bill. it's about actual issues that affect america. look at the times we're in right now, you want to know everything

presidential. what makes up his thought process of maybe not sending boots on the ground in syria to fight isis. what is in his mind when he thinks about women's issues. so everyone needs to know what the president's thinking thinking and i happen to be privileged to be one of the few people in this country who get it chance to get an up close view of the presidency and the president of the united states. people need to hear about it. >> host: what is the black-and-white? >> guest: the black-and-white is cyclical. it is something that continues to happen since the enslavement of africans in this country. there is a problem with race in this country and it has yet to be fixed. we saw the civil rights movement in the 50s and sixties. we saw major legislation from major laws, but there still an intrinsic problem in this country to fix. today, we are now seeing tension between the black community, not saying that we's don't support law-enforcement, we, we do support law enforcement

wholeheartedly. there has to be something out of that, there's still a problem. a lot of the problems this settle in some is covert. i talk with president obama recently on a flight going to selma, he fears the gap still remains. there are still gaps that need to be close. hopefully the next president will deal with those issues. this is an issue that is not going away. we haven't been able to get it right yet. other countries are watching us. >> host: if someone picks up the presidency in black-and-white, i they going to hear some personal stories about you working in the white house? if so what house? if so what is when you want to share? >> guest: when the person picks up the presidency a black-and-white, about three, about three presidents in america they will get various views. they'll get various stories, first-hand stories from the presidents themselves.

on the record from brock obama, bill clinton, the first lady laura bush,, what they'll find out are some of the things that have really happened in the white house when it comes to race. their thoughts on certain issues about race. i remember a story. going to an art gallery just a few feet away from the white house with laura bush -- ultimately i'm giving you a synopsis. ultimately the first later went through the room and at the end of the two or the black women, about five black women, black women who i do not believe were republicans wanted a bit of recognition for their so happy, they embrace the first lady in a huddle and started screaming think jesus and started crying.

then a descendent of a slave, the mother sign it brought tears to my eyes. so there are a lot of human stories that so many people can relate to in the book. and it's about you and me. it's not just about black, it's about white, it's about all of us coming together. spee1 the people go to book tv and type in april ryan, they will see this big panel that was held. what was that this right? >> guest: it was a panel discussion on race. we had an author as well that talks about criminal justice. we had joy read, and author as well who wrote the book fraction. we had other authors and i was a moderator. we had a serious discussion, serious civil discussion on the issue of race. from authors who have written

and researched about it who are experts in their field. we had a panel discussion, we had people from all walks of life, very diverse groups of people who actually were in the audience and asked about it, asked it, asked questions, it was a great discussion. it was the beginning of a discussion that needs to happen in this nation. and i love book tv and politics and prose, we are going to do this again in february. i hope book tv will be there. we had a discussion and we're going to keep going. >> host: from the white house and the presidency in black-and-white. >> republican president candidate discussed her book rising to the challenge. >> you know, i think all of us were interested in politics and i am obviously all of you are, we think a lot about what it takes to win the job of president of the united states. but i think it is also worth