[inaudible conversations] we are honored to have at our guest, douglas waller, their discuss his new book "disciples the world war ii missions of the cia director who fought for wild bill don von." waller is a veteran magazine correspondent, author and lecturer, as a correspondent for

"newsweek" and "time" he covered the pentagon, congress, the state department, the white house, and the cia. his breath books include "wild bill donovan: a question of royalty. other piography of billy mitch," our "air warriors" about navy pilots, and "commandos," a subject of america's secret soldiers. run review says wallace keeps the interest high and the pages turning please welcome douglas waller. [applause] >> thanks, helen. it's good to be back at quail ridge. i spoke here about three years ago, on the wild bill donovan biography, and we moved down to

raleigh, north carolina, from washington, dc, these years ago. so this is my home now, and quail ridge is my neighborhood book store. and you really should feel lucky that you have a book store like quail ridge here. this is independent book stores like quail ridge are really national treasures we all should cherish. so let's talk about disciples. after i published my biography of general william wild bill donovan, four years ago, i had a tough time figuring out what to do next. donovan was really larger than life. a world war i hero who had been awarded the medal of honor, a millionaire, republican wall street lawyer, often mentioned as a presidential contender, and a map franklin roost picked to be his top spy chief in world war ii in july 1941, just by way of background, donovan began what eventually became known as the office of strategic

services, the o.s.s. he started the spy agency with only just one guy and that was himself. but over the course of the war, he built up a force of more than thousands spies, research analysts propagandaists in stations all over the world. wild bill -- he got the nickname in world war i, leading infantrymen, also a controversial character. his agent revered him. hi political enemies -- he had lot of them in washington -- thought he was as big a threat to america at hey dolph -- adolph hitler was. so he would be a hard act to follow. i finally settled on four subjects. these four were among the most controversial directors the central intelligence agency has ever had. allen dulles richard helm,

william casey. allen dulles from 1963 53 to 12961, worked on the anticastro girlll las at the bay 0'res. richard helm frock 1966 to '73 was conviction lying to congress over the cia's effort to oust president of chile. bill colby who was director from 1973 to 1976 bake a pariah for releasing to congress what became known as the family jewels report, cia misdeeds during the 19050s and early '70s. bill casey, cia director from 1981 to '87, nearly brought down the agency in ronald reagan's presidency from the scheme that secretly supplied nicaragua's contras with money raked off from the sale of arms to iran for american hostages in beirut.

this is the iran-contrascandal. before these men became their nation's top spymaster they served under donovan as operatives. this book is about the secret war they fought in the office of strategic service is which is the precoursers to today's cia. these four men were characters as rich and complex and multifaceted as donovan was. an legal dullless looked like a headmaster. dressed usual any a bow tie and tweed jacket, his wiry hair was always slightly mussed. his mustache was always neat he trimmed and he always had a pipe in his teeth. he sparkling gray-blue eyes and a soft voice that invited people to pour their hearts tout him. his secret nature, however could be absolutely maddening. one of his agents opposite joked if you asked him if it was raining he would laugh another you and wouldn't tell you.

occasionally it was hearty laugh. when he was real ya amused about something. most of the time was a mirthless ho-ho-ho that he turn on when he was trying to ingratiate himself with a stranger or trying to deflect a question he didn't want to answer. the country gentleman routine also masked a fierce competitor, not willing to give up a single point on a tennis court. a back-alley fighter as an agent called him and a diseaseas man who sized up people on whether they could be useful to him. richmond helm. the second guy. what the -- was the consummate spy. he had a mona lisa like smile. his have was always slicked back neatly and he had a cold personality. he didn't make friends easily and with the friends he had, he never let his guard down with them. you can find plenty of stores in the cia about his colorful characters, and they had an awful lot of them. no one could think of an

anecdote about helm. the consummate intelligence officer, he left no trail. people had to come up -- had to strain to come up with something to say about him because he left so little impression on them. at parties he was a good dancer, a charming conversationalist, but he rarely drank more than one martini each night so his head would stay clear, and usually was the first to leave early so he would be fresh at the office the next day, or if the party was at his house, he would shooway the getzs when his bedtime neared. he smoked two packs packs of chesterfields a day for most of his him. immaculately tailored. he wore his belt with a buckle on the side instead of the front, which i thought was kind of odd. i don't know why. colby, our third guy, was once asked the def insure his

definition of the perfect spy. he gave an obvious answer, the one you don't see. colby looked like man who could be overlooked. he was slight hill built, pail, dull eyes, and horned rim glasses and hair parted on the side. a private man, unfailingly polite with very refined manners. he paid no attention to what he wore. he repaired plumbing and did carpentry work around the house, but he had his guilty pleasures. he enjoyed a good about of satisfy venow belong. on weekends he drove a red fiat sports car and appreciated beautifulwoman. although i could never find evidence he ever acted on what he noticed. classical greek and roman heroes intrigued colby. one of his favorite was "lawrence of arabia." colby once told a family member that he never had a nightmare,

never even dreamed, for that matter. which i thought was kind of unusual in the o.s.s. and later the cia, colleagues recalled bill colby as a soldier priest but a loner, they never really knew. and informal poll was once circulated among nearly 60 retired cia officers with just two questions, number one, if you were ship wrecked on a pleasant deserted island with plenty of food and liquor, and every hope a ship would pass by to pick you up, who would you choose to be with? well, dull husband won over colby because everybody thought he would be far better company. second question, if your statistic on a miserable deserted island with little food or hope of survival and you desperately wanted to escape, who would you choose to be will? bill colby easily led dull husband bus one responsible sent said he would know how to build a boat to get you off the island

and would build a boat big enough for two. bill casey made a bad first impression on others, even more so when he was middled aged help was tall and lumpy, jowly face, thick eyes, a thick lips, bulging eyes and wisps of white hair on his thad. wore expensive suits, always rumpled, his tie often stained waist he had eaten for lunch and frequently mumbled. his acquaintances usually ended up either being life-long friends who worshiped him or skeptics who just couldn't escape the uneasy feeling he was some kind of devious operator. but looks were deceiving with casey. that shovenly appearance covered a body constantly on the go. he once wrote a lengthy article how to to quickly consume a nonfiction book. he would parade from -- read

from back to front, checked out the index to figure out what he needed to no and bidine passed the rhys. he had a photographic memory. he could retain passages almost verbatim from reports of journals articles he seemed to be flipping through. the had an insatiablablely -- his idea of fun was scooping up the timetable brochures at the train stations and then studying them in his hotel room overnight so he could recite from memory the itineraries. i found a common thread that ran between them. they were all smart. in fact i think you can call them intellectuals because they were voracious readers, thoughtful and creatures of reason, but these weren't the ivory tower type of guys. who would sit around for hours

in doubt doubtful introspection. they were doers who believed they could shape history rather than letting it control them. what did they do in world war ii? start with dulles. he was born in 1893 with a club foot. surgeons repaired it but the family always treated this as some kind of deep, dark secret. his father was a liberal presbyterian minister. his power came from diplomatic nobelity. his uncles were secretaries of state. dulles was a precocious child. when he was eight years old he wrote a book on the second bohr war. had a lot of of spelling mistakes' the grandfather published 700 copies of it and he got a good review in the "washington post" from it. he went to princeton, played around a lot until his senior year ask then finally buckled

down in 1916 he joined the state department and during world war i, he was stationed with the american legation in switzerland. he became the intelligence officer there. just wasn't anybody else around for the job. and neutral switzerland was an espionage haven for the warring powers at that time. dulles basically taught himself how to be a spy, and learned some hard lessons on the job. late one afternoon a man with a thick russian accent phoned the legation and insisted on talking to an american diplomat. dullless was laid for a tennis date. he told the man to come back the next morning, when the legation opened, and he hung up. he found out later that the russian was vladimir lenin, who was headed back to his homeland the next morning. dullless would tell that anecdote time and again to new cia officers. never turn down a meeting, even with the shadest character.

he earned a law degree, left the state department in 1926, and joined sullivan and cromwell, one of the most powerful law firms in the world, and by 1930, allen was having numerous extramarital affairs, which his wife didn't much appreciate. in the months before pearl harbor, dulles picked up rumors that donovan had been made chief of some nefarious spy group with secretary funds the white house controlled. he knew donovan liked boating him at ten news but he kept his distance from the group. after pearl harbor, dulles decided to joan the o.s.s. already wealthy from this law practice, he agreed to take no government salary while he served in the spy agency. his first job was organizing a major intelligence outpost in new york city, to hatch covert operations against germany. it turned out new york was

actually a good spot for recruiting foreign spies back then. the city was filled with immigrants, deposed royalty, european expats, many of them pretty shady characters, dreaming up schemes in their manhattan salons for underground revolts in natz eu si occupied countries. donovan and dulles weren't particularly bothered that a lot of these would-be imspies were a of if the time. new york became a laboratory for intelligence gathering for dulles. he organized a project counter fit enemy currency. he bought clothes from european refugees so oss agents could wear the garments to blend in. ehen started a secret unit to tap into the records that american insurance companies held on their axis business clients before the war. now, why would he be interested

in insurance file? s well, those files often contained the blueprint of the building being insured. allied air forces found the blueprints particularly useful when they were trying to figure out how to bomb the truck tours -- structures. in november 1942, just before the allies invasion of north africa, dulles slipped into switzerland with orders to penetrate nazi germany. he set up about amounted to a minicia, running espionage operations, funding guerrilla missions in occupied france and italy, and inundating washington with foreign policy advice, most of it unsolicited. they weren't interested. for his staff, dulles recruited a handful of americans living in switzerland. one of them was mary bancroft, an american socialite who became his mistress there. he had scores of informants on his payroll. many of them turn out to be

professional snitches who often passed the same secrets to the german in the morning, the british in the afternoon, and the dulles in the evening. but dulles met them all. --didn't want to repeat the mistake he made in world war i with vladimir lenin, and he has some surprised courses. re recruited a german foreign office diplomat who delivered some 1,000 secret nazi political military and intelligence cables to dulles. colby first had to have -- had the documents strapped around his leg when he sneaked into switzerland. dulles eventually gave him a miniature camera so he could photograph the material and hide the film in a watch case. another valuable source was hans gace have i a, stern major who had come to detest hitler. he would brief dulles on the

dissidents remaining in germany who were laying plans to assassinate adolph hitler in what became known as the valkyrie project. dulles gave him the code name "tine -- tiny" now bill casey, his birth set a family record. he arrived weighing a staggering 14-pounds, and everybody is going, ooh. right. the son of a new york bureaucrat, case where was a bright child but crow the nuns at the catholic schools nuts because he seemed determined to educate himself as he saw fit. he went to fordham university, the first in his family to go to college. then he went to catholic university of america in washington to be a social worker. he quick i became disenchanted with social work after serving in the new york social work

department for about six months. he thought, welfare money was being wasted and roosevelt was a bleeding hard liberal. casey earned a law degree going to night school, and by the time hitler invaded poland he was working as an analyst for the research institute of america, a think tank in new york and washington, that advised businesses on how to land government contracts in roosevelt's new deal. after the united states entered the war, casey soon was married with a baby girl, wanted in on the action. he talked the navy into making him a lieutenant junior grade. it took some convincing. the navy didn't think he was officer material, but they ended up finding a place for him in the ship-buying program. bored, though, with pushing paper nor navy, casey noticed that a number of wealthy young men were signing on with a secret organization that donovan

set up. he managed to get an interview with donovan's recruiter but they weren't impressed with this officer who didn't seem to have much military bearing. but they hired him and discovered he was as why at administration, and he could analyze big chunks of information and write clear intelligence reports. so they packed him off to the oss, a very important london station to manage the flow of paperwork there. in short order, casey had his hand in every major operation the station was running. he was like a human tornado. as one officer there said of him, you could not not pay attention to bill casey. donovan soon was impressed with his 31-year-old navy lieutenant and in december 1944 made casey his chief of intelligence for central europe and ordered him to infiltrate oss agents in the

third like. -- third reich. that was a daunting mission. nazi germany was still one of the world's most tightly run police state. the average german citizen had up to 18 different basic identity documents, an oss unit had to forge so casey, who eventually had 3430 -- 330 people working for him, had to scramble. the last five months of the war he managerred to parachute more than 150 agents in germany to radio back intelligence for the advancing allied armsies. his spies had to improvise on the fly. a two-man team code nailed show sure enlisted the help of two french women working in -- forced to work in a bavarian brothel. the women would bees entice military secrets, one one of the oss agents hid in the closet with a flashlight taking notes.

bill colby. our next subject. bornin' 1920, he was an army brat. his father, who rows to the rank of colonel, was something of a curmudgeon. colby spend his early years moving from run duty station to another. he wanted to follow in his father's footsteps and be an army officer but he graduated from high school ahead of schedule at the age of 16. his yearbook nicknamedded him the brain and he was too young to enter west point. so he within to princeton and was eventually commissioned an r.o.t.c. second lieutenant in august 1941, after he turned 21. bill colby liked to quote napoleon's standing order for his troops. march to the sound of the guns. but after pearl harbor, it seemed to colby as if he was marching in the opposite direction, farther and farther

away from the sound he guns help was put in the artillery branch and stuck in oklahoma teaching students halted to fire howitzers. one day he spotted a notice that said the army wanted volunteers for paratroopers in an airborne artillery runted. colby applied. but he worriedded his poor eyesight might disqualified him so he enemy rised the eye chart when the doctor wasn't in the room. of course the doctor caught him. but he figured colby's eyes were probably good enough to see the ground when he parachuted to it so he passed him. bad luck struck once more. on his second jump at fort benning, georgia, where he was training the broke his right ankle. buy the time it healed and he finished what remained of his airborne training he was stuck in a replacement pool in north carolina. desperate to get to the sounds of the guns. in mid-october 1943 he spottedded another notice tacked

to another bulletin board. the one from i'm strange organization called the oss which said if you were a pair trooper and spoke french, and you were looking for adventure, call this number. so he called. and at the end of -- by the end of the month he was at the congressional country club just outside of washington, that the oss had taken over so train spies and sack tours -- stab a back tours-the secret operation had been put together by the british to drop three-man commando teams into france just after d-day to organize resistance attacks against the nazis. from the congressional country club, colby and the other oss recruits were packed off for more guerrilla training at a remote camp in maryland near fdr's presidential retreat, which is now called camp david. their next stop was peterboro, just north of london, and a country estate called milton

hall, where the british continued to train them in what became a multinational force mainly of british, french, and american officers. this was even more rigorous guerrilla training for him and there was somewhat of a culture clash between the american and the british commandos. for example, colby and the other americans had to learn the british way of pair shooting. british commandos jumped out of planes at altitudes as low as 500 feet and their parachutes did not come with a spare. at that low altitude you didn't have time to deploy a spare anyway. the instructors toll them that if their chute didn't open, to bring it back and we'll give you a new one. of course the americans didn't find that joke particularly funny. finally in august 1944, colby's three-man team dropped into burgundy region southeast of paris to organize resistance attacks a patton's army

approached. this secret war was complicated. colby's team had to deal with an assortment of resistance factions that were poorly trained and equipped, where eve faction seem to have a private political agenda they often squabbled among themselves, and colby didn't know it at the time but one of the top resistance leaders he was working with, a man named roger bourdais, was secretly collaborating with the germans. the top spy catcher in france had career crude bore day bourdais to betray his country. after the third army pass thyroid burgundy and colby's assignment ended he next led a norwegian american koman to team that parachuted into norway in march 1945. their mission, named after a local bird, was to help keep some 300,000 german occupiers

bottled up in norway so they couldn't be transferred back to germany to fight the allied advance. this was a tough mission. colby's men ended up fighting norway's brutal i winter weather as much as they did the germans. half of his 30-man team never made to it norway because the planes carrying them couldn't find the drop zone in the snow or crashed. colby's commandos did manage to blow up a bridge and destroy a section of track on the railline which was carrying german troops north to south but the raids were very risky and the skiing was absolutely exhausting. colby's team nicknamed one of the mountains they had to ski over to escape a nazi patrol, ben a katrina hill because probably all of them had to pop a stimulus for the artificial energy to get to its peak. finally, richard helm. born barely two weeks after casey in 1913 but any similarity

between the two boys stopped there. helm's grandfather was a famous international banker. his father was an alcoa executive who, along with his mother, suffered bouts of depression. the family lived abroad and the attended a private school in switzerland, and germany. it was cosmo poll continue education that helm alerter authority wealth ideal for a spy. back home he game a big man on campus at williams college with the identify beta kappa key and harvard law school open to him. coalbin stead chose journalism. he hoped to publish a newspaper one day. he signed on with the united press, and by 1935, he became one of the news agency's correspondents in berlin, where adolph hitler was wildly popular. his prize assignment came in september 1936 when he covered the annual nazi party congress

in nuremberg. after the rally hitler invited helm and half dozen other foreign correspondents to a lunch at nuremberg castle. helms was surprised how unremarkable their furor looked to him. his eyes, everyone claimed were hypnotic. were actually a dull slate blue, protruding somewhat from his head, and helm thought they were quite ordinary. his pasty white face was tinged slightly pink, gold filled his teeth, and when he talked to the reporters his knees rocked back and forth, which he naught was outside. ...

in his way to to talking to talking to a pittsburgh steel plant and others congress documents on the types of goods manufactured.

now, two weeks wasn't enough to make him a spy he would have gotten more training but it was enough for the staff job in the washington headquarters when he first served in the planning group of operations for the stations abroad and then coordinated intelligence gathering. they brought the intelligence chief who was an unsavory french colonel to the united states for what amounted because he spoke french and had been a newspaper man he was assigned to the escort team for the kernel with

the important missions of keeping the frenchman's visit out of newspapers and they flew around the united states to see the sites so they had an expensive night out at the restaurant in new orleans and hollywood studio executives arranged for high-priced call girls to entertain the kernel and their hotel rooms. fortunately for helms nothing ever got in the newspapers about this. he finally made it to january 1945 with casey and worked keeping an eye on the handlers. the spy is they sent out were called joe's and they were assigned to watch over them until they boarded the plane and headed over the enemy territory and shoot it out and they

watched the planes take off with the spy is then waited at the airport for the pilots to return to report back that the drop had been successful. after germany surrendered, they moved into war-torn berlin to set up a space station to take a -- spy station. it's hard to imagine how chaotic and how violent europe was just after germany surrendered. berlin was like the wild west. millions of homeless and starving souls filled the city. billions of corpses in the rubble. criminal gangs roamed the streets many of them made up of young orphans and soviet spies infested the western sector of the american government french and british occupied. helms and the other station

officers went for war criminals and tracked down to help round out the code name paper and even a nurse from the bunker near the chancellery who detailed for them hitler's final days before a suicide. the targets of the spying soon switched from the remnants of not see germany to the soviets occupied east berlin. and under highly classified orders from donovan, the other operators in the station also spied on the british and the french in their sectors as well. one of them assumed you were spying on the americans and want to return the favor. not emotionally drained or scarred from what they experienced. you don't find ptsd among these formats. instead of a return to europe

rather invigorated from the fight and ready for the next battle which was against communism. world war ii had a huge impact on their lives and they ran the cia much as the oss station. they talked helms how to be a spy and he decided that his intelligence direction was calling. colby who wore a floppy hat from the war when he tended his garden got a law degree but quickly grew bored with being a lawyer and he joined the cia to fight communists as he had the nazis. when casey became the cia director, he held two pictures in his office at the cia headquarters in langley. ronald reagan and a photograph of wild bill donovan has been to her. so let me end it to talk about

these four men and anything else they did in the war and their legacy or anything else you have on your mind. [inaudible] >> this is about the secret war in the european theater and what kind of operations they have in the pacific. the short answer actually isn't much. douglas macarthur didn't think much of the organization and only allowed a handful of people in. he was the commander of the southwest pacific force and the admiral didn't see any use for what was naturally enabled so donovan ended up having most of

his operations in china and launching attacks against german occupier and they took a long time to get into the war because they spent a lot of time spying on the shanghai operatives spies who spied on his men who were in their impact donovan said of a felony newspaper and had them posing to collect intelligence. it wasn't a very ethical thing to do. [inaudible] >> the question is did he have to keep his operations separate. not only did they keep it secret from the government but from the germans or anybody else and the reason was largely practical.

when he got in in november of 1942, he didn't have three years to set up an undercover clandestine spy operation to infiltrate agents into germany or start collecting information he had to hit the floor running so both he and donovan decided that they will probably find out what you're doing anyway so he practically hung a shingle out of his apartment that says snitches and informants are welcome. now as a result of that, he got a lot of gestapo agents trying to infiltrate the operation. the soviets service penetrated him, too. fortunately, the germans knew that he was some type of a special representative from fdr and dana because they read it in

the paper. they leaked the story that he would come as a special representative. but they assumed that he was collecting economic secrets and really the germans assumed any type of american diplomatic mission was a spy it didn't matter who they were so they treated them all that way. but it didn't really produce that much. >> i was born in berlin in 1938 and i remember as a child in 194546 going to the zoo feeding the animals cigarettes. [inaudible] >> the question was occupied berlin that american voters were feeding the animals cigarettes. this is probably what remained because of the heavy bombing by

the soviet artillery and american bombs a lot of the animals fled. they were literally on fire. it was really horrific so there wasn't much there. but yes it was occupation troops there were problems on all sides. there was a high than aerial disease rates among the american soldiers in berlin. there was a big problem in the black market in the allied forces. he had a big problem in his own station with some officers making a killing on swiss watches they were sneaking into the country. in fact he had to clean out some of the people in his station. it turned out a lot of cases where there were gis that committed crimes or anything were actually very often in the kgb officers in the suits that were committing the crimes to

cast a bad light about the russians dealt with their problems basically shooting anybody that got too far out. but it was a chaotic experience. of the war didn't end may 8, 1945. you have millions and millions of displaced people moving around in europe. there was still a lot of death and chaos in berlin. >> [inaudible] >> did he get along with eisenhower, yeah. he did. actually, donovan got along with eisenhower, too. he gets a lot of long with generals and admirals because he makes and rounds which doesn't take into popular. so eisenhower saw a lot of value in what he was producing in

switzerland. keep in mind switzerland was the allied or the american ally. even the pentagon but that he was a double agent and so did the british, too [inaudible] how did he get along with his brother? he was the secretary of state and the eisenhower administration and a senior partner in the international law firm and he recruited them to come to the law firm in the family foster was always the

number 1 leader. so when he became eisenhower cia director with a lot of help from foster who was the secretary of state, dulles defer to him in the administration he didn't overtly try to make the foreign policy but he saw himself as a foreign-policy instrument in the eisenhower administration. and that's a lot of people thought that he should have been the secretary of state because foster wasn't that much fun to be around. so it's like any brother's

relationship that it made him very powerful in the eisenhower administration to have these two brothers controlling all of the national security leaders over and over. >> the story is interesting. you know if he survived the war? >> he was an out of their major who was part of a group of senior officers under the director of the admiral who also hated hitler and secretly encouraged the dissident movement that led to the plot. they were there in berlin when the plot was unfolding that today and failed. he managed to escape and get out

they got everybody else out on the spot and just scooped them up and tortured them and executed them later. he escaped into berlin and rome all over for months. it was hard for them to hide out because he was so tall and couldn't walk it out on sidewalks. eventually, he managed to get the london station to fabricate and forage the identity document they would need to get out of germany and switzerland and they had an agent slipped those documents and including passports and everything and he was able to climb aboard a train with a senior delegation on that he was hiding in plain sight and make his way to burn the burn in switzerland where he finally hooked up with dulles completely

emotionally exhausted. his hair turned completely white, then he worked for him afterwards. >> he must have greeted the reliance in the cia change after. >> the question is what was kennedy's interaction or reliance change after the bay of pigs. there's a story that circulated that's been around in other books that after the bay of pigs, kennedy wanted to break up the cia into a million pieces and he fired him eventually. he obviously treated intelligence and the military because the military talked him into it as well but he took the bullet. he didn't publicly blame him. there was an interval before he fired them and it's interesting.

you remember in the famous conference where he is admitting the bay of pigs thing and he talked about success having 100 fathers you know where he got that line it was from a manuscript of the foreign minister of italy eventually executed by mussolini and they hope to get it published in the newspapers and there was a little line in their gut said that particular quote and i don't think that he ever knew where in the world it came from. i was wondering if any of these gentlemen were involved or aware of the project that was going on breaking the code or do they have a role or was it shared

later on? >> or any of the subjects involved in the british program that broke the german military code. it was kind of an interesting relationship to senior people and the senior people and the oss and donovan had with the british. the british gave donovan access to the files which were helpful in building up this counter espionage service. ironically, general george marshall chief of staff of the army wouldn't give donovan access to that magic code breaking. this was the code breaking of the chinese diplomatic and military cables. marshall worried about the donovan couldn't keep a secret and it would leak out.

it was for the people that are evaluating the intelligence that he was producing and sending to washington initially in the first months of the setting of the station. donovan one of the senior aides set out a cable that said that the military is discounting 100% of everything you're sending us. the intelligence eventually improved. we mentioned he was the foreign office diplomat brought in by real good stuff. they would look at what they

were getting into compared to what is happening out in the office of the military and they saw that it matched up and it wasn't until about six or seven months of that intelligence that when they were crosschecking with old trout that they finally determined that he wasn't feeding them chicken feed. the disadvantage instrument useless information you've been to the you feed the enemy to ingratiate yourself with them. they determined that it was the real thing. it took the british a little bit longer. >> you mentioned the german pow arrived via he was there. >> the question was in north carolina were they there when colby was. i don't know.

he got there in august to september, going into early october, 1943. i have never mentioned any of that in his memoirs and i never found anything on it. he was stuck in a replacement pool and there were other people heading over to germany and airborne artillery which he thought was a ridiculous idea because they had to drop them in nine different parts. they couldn't find all the parts to put the whole thing together again so they didn't see much for the airborne artillery so he spent which of the time trying to figure out how to get out of there and i doubt if he hardly even noticed that many. i am not sure when the german pow got there.

[inaudible] >> how about that. [laughter] >> [inaudible] >> the question is did he ever run across them in world war ii. now he did and that he entered into the dulles story at a very critical point. what it was is in the war getting near its end, he was conducting secret negotiations with the general in northern italy for the surrender of the northern german forces in italy. this was in the overall surrender of the troops. he'd been working on it for a long time in a very torturous diplomatic negotiation he was doing in complete secrecy. the americans codenamed the

operation sunrise, the british codename because churchill thought that it was an antenna chart all crossword puzzle. the way that colby fits into the picture where he's fixing to fit into the picture was the russians were outraged when he started picking up the word about the secret negotiations. and the germans occupied northern italy and and in fact stalin and roosevelt exchanged some of the most hostile dean's putative letters that you ever did during the war over the sunrise talks and the russians thought when they were negotiating the secret surrender the german forces in northern italy would reach around russia which wasn't really the case and the russians wanted to come here themselves.

they kept the sunrise operations very secret and even from the british for a while. but the russians as it turned out were able to learn about the sunrise who was feeding a lot of information out about what was going on. and i'm sure he didn't realize it on after the war with that kind of betrayal and tailed. can you tell us anything about the involvement in the overthrow [inaudible] >> yes, they were involved. not only that but they were involved in the overthrow of the president of guatemala around that time also. both in the case.

after that came the the ayatollah said they were very considered in the and the agency highly successful operations that had great historical ramifications. now this wasn't a rogue operation died dulles brothers. eisenhower was behind it before he improved and we talk about the assassination plotting of castro and whatever the cia tried but never really accomplished. these were things eisenhower was fixated on getting the greenlight on. he had a habit of testing the edge of the envelope on the orders he might trip over a little bit, that he was wildly popular into the cover was on "time" magazine as the superspy. >> they were planning their overthrow even before eisenhower was sworn in.

when they found out he was elected and they would get their way -- >> i don't know about foster. i could see the deputy director during the truman administration under the general smith who had been the chief of staff. he may have. i'm getting a cutthroat sign over there. >> [inaudible] >> the question is during the vietnam war and the involvement in the phoenix program, it was a broad-based program linked with other pacification programs in vietnam that its intent was to

build up the villages and viet cong and ended up with about 20,000 people killed. colby defended phoenix and said most of the deaths are almost all the combat casualties. it turned out in out an awful lot of them were assassinations and a lot of the operators that worked with phoenix under the cia even though colby sent out memos saying we don't condone extrajudicial punishment, a lot of that was still going on. and colby also defended his role in the bombing and was proud of that. it was a travesty that the brothers were overthrown and see if mom and that we could have won the war and his family is still in power which probably

nothing could have been further from the truth. well, thank you very much. [applause] thank you so much for coming tonight. he will sign books at the table and we have them for sale at the counter >> all having business before the honorable supreme court of the united states to give their

attention. >> monday on the landmark cases we will look at the case on one of the most divisive issues to come to the supreme court, abortion. >> will be wade was decided in january, 1973. it is a case that is controversial and that is constantly under scrutiny and there is a question i suppose of whether it ever will cease to be under scrutiny. ..

>> our guest, clark forsyth, senior counsel with americans united for life and author of "abuse of discretion: the inside story of roe v. wade." and melissa murray, professor at the university of california berkeley law school and former law clerk for sonia sotomayor prior to her appointment to the supreme court. that's