it should have went to trial. >> well, in addition to your work with looking at police behavior, you have also done some research on human rights abuses in particularly the st. louis city jails. you release this report, suffering in silence, available online in 2009. it demonstrated numerous human rights abuses in the st. louis city jail. what has changed since then? >> not munch. initially, the city was in complete and utter denial and we were told we had some agenda and none of that was true and ultimately everything we alleged in the report was proven to be true and then some. they are facing a number of lawsuits now based on the kinds of conduct and behavior we described in the report, but systemic changes is difficult. you had to have people inside the system who acknowledge the problem and also work to change it.

we have not seen that and they are facing lawsuits as we speak. they are trying, from what i understand, in recent months to make some changes inside the system, but it's very difficult. i'm in the prison system in america is what it is, grandpa to be his, rapid human rights abuse and we as a society even if we don't believe it, we accept the idea at least that's the moment you cross the threshold of a jail or prison you are-- or constitutional rights are suspended, which is particularly ironic in jail settings where you are in many cases held over for trial, innocent until proven guilty. but, they are violating your rights on a daily basis and i'm talking about brutal bees, sexual assault, medical deprivation, which can be deadly if you medication and you're incarcerated and that medication is denied to you that is a problem. we found all of those things when we did that report and i'm

glad we were able to shed some light on it, but i know that that is widespread. >> is going to take more work. >> it's going to take more work and the commitment of us collectively to come to a place where we understand the value of living up to our ideals. >> i think one of the questions i had for my students as part of the series there's a class associated with this and my 25 the students asked questions and do research on the speakers and many of them are concerned and interested about these abadie cameras. so, tia and tony's asking if by cameras are a sufficient solution or if there is something else that should be done to hold police officers accountable québec i think by cameras are a great part of solving the issues we have with police abuse. the issue of accountability, of course. with those body cameras you can

rest assured there will be a fight all the way through that process to the point where we see how they are uniformly and consistently used by the majority of police departments and all the permits because many department's right now are on one hand accepting the idea that okay these body cameras are a good idea and provide as an objective record, but at the same time they are trying to limit the public's access to the footage that the body camera produces or they want to hold it for 14 days to 21 days before its release. while, that's ridiculous and i don't think there's enough trust in this relationship for anyone to be the control with idea of a police apartment having sole access to custody of video footage gain from officers conduct who may be under investigation for some potentially criminal act for you guys to be the one. if the fox guarding the hen house and additionally, i think empowered civilian review

oversight is something that should be in place. although, i have not seen many models nationally that what i would describe as wildly successful, usually because they lack the kind of authority and autonomy that would make them effective in the role of oversight of the police department and the go to argument therefore a police department is that, civilians don't understand what we do and you don't understand our process and procedure and you don't know what it's like to make a split second decision and on and on and on, but don't ever discount common sense and the value explanation. if you can tell me why you did what you did i can look at what you did so make a pretty good decision about what side of right or wrong and legal and illegal it may be the next so, i want to hand over the questions to our audience in a minute here, but we had a pretty exciting day here on campus. we have a new president of the university as of today.

>> i heard. >> i think they are doing other events. >> he could come to this. [laughter] >> but, today in addition to all of the pomp and circumstance surrounding our new president, other campuses had the national collegiate blackout standing in solidarity with students of color, largely motivated by recent events at the university of missouri, not far from where you lived, so you live in missouri. what is happening on that campus? with the history of race and racism on the campus and how can students at the university of delaware and across the country work to make a difference on their own campuses? >> it's a long history in missouri. when that first kicked off people in my generation and i'm 51 years old and there were people that i know who attended the university, people who were all on our facebook feed talk about what happened when they

were there and how it lined up exactly with what's going on now , nothing has changed. so, everyone was collectively very proud of what the young people at the university of missouri were able to do under these circumstances and we think it has implications broadly, nationally because the issue is the university of missouri, there is no, state university in the country that i think it doesn't face i kind of issue on some level from coast-to-coast and i think what students can do is what they are doing already, which is get involved. you see what i think is a beautiful synthesis of like-minded students from all backgrounds, not just black students but white students, asian students, hasan extends, international students coming together to say we want a world and the country where we are all equally valued and equally respected. our dignity, our lives, our futures and we will work together to create that in spite of this history and in spite of

the power in place who would fight against these young people to sustain the systems that have put us in the position we are in now. >> so, before i handed over to audience questions i think we will get some microphones set up so people can ask questions, but do you have any strategies in my neck and kickoff these these changes to better change the justice system? emily says you mention waves you believe you can change the institutional practices and police department. where our real practical things that can happen now? >> there are two and i don't believe in the broad, you know, programs, but there are two and they dovetail nicely. one is on me and us and those who are in the system. i'm a firm believer in the fact that a significant part of the change that we want to see has to come from inside the system, the people in the system have the most immediate opportunity, most immediate power to really

force change. the second thing is to add the effort to the already existing movement that is on the ground from coast-to-coast to work together with folks everywhere, black lives matter, any other positive movement in the direction of change, positive change and positive reform to work in coalition those organizations. for the changes we want to see and with that pressure coming from the outside and a critical mass of people inside the system willing to have the same commitment to change, i think we can see it happen and i think the climate in the country is right for you here. it's not lost on anyone. is not lost on anyone. at the demographics in the country are changing. i think, you know, unfortunately many of the worst opponents of

equal treatment under the law and equal access to opportunity are the people who would fight harder against the kind of changes we want to see. there is no coincidence, none, it's not a coincidence that when barack obama was elected president the covers came off. come on. as a soon as he was elected president we saw what this nation is about in pockets and we saw a growing number of local races who are vehemently opposed to black progress of black leadership, but we don't have to succumb to that. we do have to give into that because collectively at the end of the day we are all americans and we all, i think, want what's best for our communities and our families and our country and

together we can move in that direction, but it has to be premised on the idea that equal treatment under the law has to become a reality and not just a narrative. >> thank you for answering my questions honestly and this personal narrative you have offered and i'm sure our audience has lots of good questions and we actually tonight have microphones on either side of the auditorium here. we are opening and up for questions, so if you raise your hands are two students, abby and christie, can come down and hand you the microphone if you have a question for our speaker. >> did i do a really good job? >> he answered all of your questions. >> don't answer that. i'm setting myself up for abuse when i asked that question. here comes the abuse.

>> you talk about making conversations between-- [inaudible] >> i hear him. >> you all can't hear him? okay. [inaudible] >> it will be a question you can respond to our statement you can respond to. i think we need to feel that uncomfortableness, so we can then understand because people can understand without some kind of vulnerability, some kind of uncomfortableness. >> i think your point is well made and actually, i agree with you and maybe should have had a different choice of words rather than comfortable i should have said accessible. the way to get us into the space where we can be a little uncomfortable is to understand that at the bottom of it no one is under indictment.

it's not going to be guilty or innocent in the sense that people who are present and willing to work with change, so yeah, there's going to be some discomfort. is unavoidable. because of who we are as a country and when i say that i'm going to go ahead and showed us-- well, i will save that for the end. there is a story i tell and i'm sure to be vilified, but it's true. i will go ahead and tell it now, three minutes. my dad died in 96, and my mom got remarried about four years later, nice guy. i was real happy for her. she seemed happy. i would go by their home in the guy she married is named joseph jones at is an avid reader and had a book on his table that i just happened to pick up and it was called the black press, as in media, press, media, the

black president was about the black press in america from about the mid- 1800s to make the early 1900s and first of all i was floored. i didn't really realize we had a black press at that moment in our nation's history. and you can imagine the kinds of things they were writing about and they were all very intelligent articles, coherent, just brilliant. ..

the rage was coming off the page was this comment. i'm going to talk about it so much that i could produce about but i haven't been able to be clear about whether he was directly quoting this guy or paraphrasing. but the words on the page 40s to the fact blacks needed to get out of this country. we need them out of here because this country, america the united states will never treat them equally and value them equally.

not god or conscious or religion or the bible could make it so. let that sink in. not god, religion, the bible, conscience. the things that animate human conduct and life. none of these things can make this country treat blacks as anything other than they've been treated. who has he been paraphrasing? francis scott the man who wrote the national income. that's what dvds. so when i say we were born into

this reality i mean it and when i say that we have an opportunity to bring substantive moral change to the nation, iab leave it but we have to acknowledge the reality of who we are and where we've come from and not just the narrative. >> host: we have a question from twitter and parker. basically you mentioned in several articles that racial sensitivity classes aren't enough to help stop police brutality. what are some other tactics that you recommend for preventing that or repercussions when they violate? the only one that will get us to where we need to be effectual punishment for misconduct in the

violation of rights of the citizens you serve until we see officers incarcerated for their violations and criminal acts. it's only to be hired by the department of the next municipality or one state over. only punishment when it comes to effecting change in behavior that's it. it's the bottom line. what the limits of the audience for another question. >> i was just wondering as a student studying the policy

there's something interesting to me. what can we do to solve this like what action do you say even a normal person can take for someone who wants to go into public service could do to help resolve this issue? keep your foot on the gas. you are taking actions across the country. don't stop, don't give up, don't slow down. and as you advance in your career or surveyor pass, keep your ideas with you and get yourself to a position to affect public policy change and be the same strong advocate in the public arena after you leave here as you are right now. this is a question students have what can they do and where can

they go from here. >> keep doing what you're doing. experience from the idea that it prevents you from doing his job, but an indictment of the system when you let that sink in. if the watchman i can't you watch me i can't work. that's ridiculous. but you have an impact on the national discussion and the national agenda which is going to affect policy ultimately so continue to maintain your enthusiasm and clarity and conscience and do the work you do as you develop your soaps individually to build a the relationship you build and keep short of how to build unity and

bridges across the spectrum people that come into contact with you. >> the impact of technology on politics i think particularly surrounding this issue we have seen people using cell phones and smart phones to capture incidents like a few weeks ago a viral video showing a resource officer officer at a south carolina high school slamming a student to the ground, tossing her several feet across the floor. earlier what rattled rattled me most about the video is none of the other students even reacted to this. it was a normal reality for them. the officer has been fired but what can be done in schools to reduce this behavior? we need to remove them from the schools, period. we never had law enforcement officers in our school which should be better result at the school level. when i saw that videotape i was

appalled, and i was even more appalled you talk about the students not reacting i was even more appalled by the african-american administrator who said it's all right i'm good with what i just saw happen. you must be crazy for him to walk in and assaulted the child like that was beyond the pale, totally unnecessary and he should have been fired and it's that kind of action that i think reflects exactly why i'm harping on it tonight i didn't realize i was going to but that's why you hear people say black lives matter. had it been a white 16-year-old girl left me tell you something he wouldn't have touched her like that. he wouldn't have grabbed her by the throat, slammed her to the floor and threw her across the classroom. he wouldn't have done that he thought he could do it without a child and that a problem and it goes to accountability. and i hope that he is out of law-enforcement altogether.

>> i know people have more questions from the audience and i will hopefully wrap up my questions with this one but in delaware speaking of youth, there is no minimum age for a child to be charged as an adult. it varies by state but in a recent report, black youth are overrepresented among those arrested, detained and admitted to state prison. the suicide and sexual abuse rate is much higher than older prisoners. how should states and prisons be treating youth as compared to adults? >> even their brains are different. there is so much research in the area you would end or i wouldn't want to be held accountable for a decision that i made up 12 or 13 or 14-years-old for the rest of my life. i do understand accountability and responsibility and there are serious crimes committed by

young kids that they need to be held accountable or books to eat a private them of the opportunity of preemption or ever having the opportunity to give something back from those they've taken away from to become productive members of our society but that's not who we really are and luckily all of us should understand that and it is not a person in this room, i'm not looking at a roomful of angels, no sir, no ma'am. i am under no illusion that anybody in this room including myself could easily have been caught up. but here you are now at this stage in your life and this is the person that you are fully positioned in a prepared to do something positive and great. i think that opportunity should be afforded to everyone after we hold them accountable for the things they do but particularly the younger you are and for drug

drug-related offenses and things like that we need to understand that and treat them differently than we do adults in our system. >> let's take another question from the audience down here in the front. >> thank you. talking about accountability, i go back to detroit, the fires and 67, i look at what was their name, hardly -- >> i know sharpton. >> he had to rally but she never got raped. i'm also looking at duke and

lacrosse. what's the accountability from that side coming in for you to not speak to any issues on that side you are strictly talking about were strictly talking about police matters but not to the other side. why are you not standing up and questioning some of the people on the other side? >> so when people are falsely accused of a crime >> that's always wrong but to answer the question, i came here tonight to talk about police community issues. i didn't come to talk about sharpton and i can specifically to talk about what i'm talking about, however, what we are talking about is equal treatment under the law and people being equally treated in the process when it was discovered that those lacrosse players were falsely accused and they were exonerated and available men was i think held to some account, i don't know for sure, for what

she had done. but there are instances of people exploiting situations. sharpton has been accused of that and this young lady was obviously guilty of that but wait of the instances that involve black people in the public sphere or discrediting whites i think personally pales in comparison to the number of blacks have been targeted and minorities of poor people have been targeted and injured by a system that's been in place since the country's genesis and has persisted to this very moment as we sit here and talk i just don't see -- it up as an oranges. sharpton was wrong for his false presentation of the facts and the young lady was wrong and i'm glad those two players were

exonerated. >> another question from the audience. how about here. you have a bright green shirt on >> considering the events of the past week with paris and refugees at all these other issues going on, president obama has made multiple statements regarding them but yet the one thing that became a trendy new topic or i guess popular on social media was that he said popoff in one of his speeches. do you think that the media is just perpetuating the stereotypes by the things that these politicians do and not the politics they stand for? >> probably yes but that's the national media, you know, i think that people are now sophisticated enough the majority of people to know that the mainstream american media isn't necessarily the best primary source of information that you can have and i think

people take what they present to us at face value. we clean from it but we will and we look for other sources of information to give us a more complete picture of whatever the issue is that we are looking into. but the media and this president have had that kind of relationship for some time particular certain media outlets that would vilify him at every turn. i have and said that i'm not always in 100% agreement with the president for some of the things he says and does k. i think that is a myth to matter what we are rolling with president obama. yes, i support him come and i'm proud of that terms that he's had that i had issues with which i would substantively disagree with issues he's taken. the media is going to do with the media does. the heavy viewership.

>> i think we had one more question on this side. yes, right back there. >> and going to stand if you don't mind. i want you to see who i am. this past saturday, we had a conference here at the chase center as one of our auditoriums downtown for there were about 500 t. go and a 43 for 16 x. of black-and-white and it really is and was all about this issue and i say is because that was the opening events of things to come so i'm kind of sort of offering the group here come at a younger people that are asking what can they do, they can join that movement which is here in the delaware area. there are a lot of things going on and i'm going to give to the question -- i'm tired man. [laughter]

there's only a few minutes left so definitely gets to the question sooner rather than later. >> i'm a few years older than you probably about 30 and have a daughter your age -- the question is really where do we go from here. are we undertaking an impossible task you went back in history. my mother worked this issue until she was 92. i don't know that she ever learned to like white people during this period but she worked with them in an effort to try to change the world. she did shut down a number of drugstores that wouldn't treat or serve black people so anyway, a lot of history in my life that keeps me at it and as i look out

my grandchildren particularly my grandson and all the issues of police issues we've been through a lot of those areas. is there a solution? is it just a matter of staying with it and working at it? and you mentioned that there was never a time that there was a pleasant time between the races in the country so will there ever be? >> thank you so much. it almost sounds like is there hope, are we fighting a loser now, are people of color fighting a losing battle? >> my answer to the question is yes there is hope and guess i believe that we are in a position to see that evolve, that condition of a better relationship between the people who live in this country with

different races come into place not due in no small part to the fact that the demographics of the country are changing and about 30 to 40 years brown people will be the majority of the country. but isn't anything to be afraid of because what you will find is that people are people and it's not going to be about using those numbers into turning the tables and see vengeance and we will get you back. no i believe the generation that's in front of us has a greater focus on human rights and equal what he banned many preceding generations notwithstanding the civil rights movement and all the great work that was done by people of all races in that movement but i think right now we see a complement of changing numbers in the country racially and changing ideas and motivation and energy of the very people who were part of the changing numbers. so, i think that there is an opportunity if we seize it. if we have enough courage to

acknowledge the reality of the country and then do the work of getting to that place i believe it could happen. i have to believe that because i have kids, to back snack before i thank you for coming i want to thank everyone here in the audience for being here. this has been a really important semester talking about race not just in america but on this campus and i really want to as the director of this to continue the dialogue online, on mature and other forms so please don't hesitate to contact me if you want to talk more about this, lindsey at race in america on twitter. thank you for being here and for joining us. [applause]

i have a figure that's kind of a conglomeration of extremists as early settlers in a palestinian figure who if you notice, he is on a prayer that but he has his shoes on so both these figures are sort of

utilizing a false religion for a political purpose so it's just once again i am an equal opportunity offender. >> sunday at eight the eastern and pacific on c-span q-and-a c-span presents congress the year in review a look back at the newsmaking issues, debates and hearings that took center stage this year. join us thursday at 8 p.m. eastern as we read visit mitch mcconnell taking his position as the senate majority leader, pope francis historic address to the joint session in congress, the resignation of the house speaker and the election of paul ryan, the debate over the nuclear deal with iran and reaction from congress on mass shootings here and abroad, gun control, terrorism and the rise of isis. congress year-end review on c-span thursday at 8 p.m.

eastern. more about changing the criminal justice system now with a discussion posted by the federalist society. this is about two hours. >> [inaudible conversations] good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. my name is gail and i am the chairman of the civil rights practice group. welcome to our breakout session where we intended to provide you with a safe space [laughter] welcom space for a serious noup. holds barred intellectualafe sp. holdrred, of an important

policyin question. today's session is entitled to ferguson ferguson baltimore and criminal justice reform. we have great panelists who will be introduced by the moderator. allow me to simply introduce the moderator. the honorable david strasse associate justice of the supreme court of minnesota. you might think that this former clerk, the former law professor from the university of minnesota looks a little young to be a five-year veteran of the minnesota supreme court. wow that is because he was sworn in at the ripe old age of 35. so with that, justice. [applause]

thank you for the kind introduction. good afternoon and welcome to the panel entitled ferguson baltimore and the criminal justice reform. as you heard my name is david stras of the minnesota think what minnesota think what it was a law professor at the university of minnesota law school where i talk among other classes, millwall and first-year law students so this is a longtime interest of mine as well. i've been asked to moderate a panel which is very timely in light of recent developments. as you heard yesterday the current administration is actively engaged in pushing a criminal justice reform agenda that includes among many other things greater cooperation among law enforcement agencies, reforms related to drug and substance abuse and changes in community policing as a result of the incidents in baltimore and ferguson. as you heard last night at the

dinner from the panel of governors, criminal justice reform is also an important issue at the state level. there seems to be a timely debate going on about whether the criminal justice reforms are better implemented at the state level and about local at the local level or whether it's a top-down approach is needed. our five panelists which we were fortunate to have today are experts in the field of law enforcement and community relations, crime policy crying policy and recent developments for the criminal justice field. chief among the topics we plan to cover is what type of reform if any is needed and what should it look like. whether the evidence of squares with media accounts. to address the most effective methods of policing and how they can be promoted and whether the threat of personal liability of the best way is the best way to promote good law enforcement practices. without further ado, i will

begin with david muhlhausen on evaluating the effectiveness of federal social programs in the heritage foundation center for the data and analysis. he's testified frequently before congress on the efficiency and effectiveness of federal programs and has worked on community oriented policing services noteworthy for many reasons including this panel. in 2001 he published an analysis showing the highly touted the program to be a waste of taxpayer dollars. his research illustrated they neither had put 100,000 new police officers on the street nor have reduced violent crime. also interestingly served as a manager at a juvenile correctional facility in baltimore so please welcome mr. muhlhausen. [applause]

>> i would like to thank you for the kind remarks and at the federalist society for an opportunity to speak today. what i'm going to talk about today is a research technique called the veil of darkness that gives good insight into whether or not the police are discriminatory in traffic stops. the question is far copps racist and does the drivers race influenced the decision by the police officer to do a traffic stop? this question is difficult to do. not only do you have to control the neighborhood characteristics that you have to control what's going on in the officer's mind why does the officer pbp where she needs to pull over the individual for a stop? and one of the things the studies do it but i think it's very questionable is to compare the racial composition of those

stops to the racial composition of the neighborhood within individual stop. that doesn't account for individual driving patterns. it's an adequate benchmark and a lot of researchers are beginning to realize that just comparing those stops by police to committing demographics is a highly flawed approach. so, the veil of darkness is basically a term to describe a natural experiment where we exploit changes to assess whether or not the police are treating different groups unfairly or fairly so what happens is the assumption that the police are less likely to identify the base of a driver at nighttime but more likely to identify the race of the driver during the daytime. so if you can take advantage of

an actual experiment of the shifts between daylight and night, you would assume that the police are unfairly targeting minorities during the day when the race of the driver is more easily identified with the high year than the stops at night and one of the things that several studies i'm going to go through tonight is that taking advantage of daylight savings time. as you all know we recently had a change in our clocks. we gained an extra hour of sleep and by looking at this, we can control patterns of driving. i usually leave work at 5:30 in the evening and now it's pitch black at dark. and it's very hard to tell the race of the people you are commuting home with in other cars and right before this change was light out and you could more easily identify the drivers race and so by doing this, by the time of day we can

control the driver patterns, driver behavior and police department assuming just if you look at the difference between daylight savings time and its effect on whether it's night or day that shouldn't affect police behavior or deployment and so this research methodology is superior to using community demographics as a benchmark. so there are five studies in this area and they examine for cities. the first was oakland and i'm going to concentrate on the 2006 study because the results are the same as the word 2004 penguin to try to be brief. in cincinnati, syracuse and minneapolis in three or four of the city's research shows that there is no difference and there

is no racial disparity going on. the one exception is minneapolis so if you are looking at oakland , they looked out of the intertwined like period i mean five to 9 p.m. and they controlled when the sun sets in when it's completely dark and they looked at the police stops from june to december, 2003, the head 1100 traffic stops and in this state they controlled for the time of day and also the police patrol area essentially controlled from the neighborhood it has higher crime and therefore the higher police presence that may affect who is being stalked and what they found was that officers were less likely to stop minorities during the day the opposite of what many people were targeting

minority drivers during the day compared to that night after you control for the time of day in the police patrol area areas that were less likely to be stopped during the day that they are more easily identified. the next study was more competent then looked over six years and it exploited not only the difference during the twilight looked at before and after daylight savings time and over 3700 traffic cases again a control for the time of day and the neighborhood and they found police officers were no less likely to stop blacks during the day compared to the night. in the syracuse, another well-done study looked at for years of data and they also looked at 30 days before and

after daylight savings time and they also analyzed the stocks by regular traffic patrol and crime reduction team that was a division of police officers assigned a target in high crime areas to do preventive control and proactive things to reduce crime so the suspicion was that they were going to have sort of racial pride with some bias you would find it among the crime reduction team and the study controlled for the day, week and weekend patrol area in over four years they found the blacks were no more or less likely to be stopped except for in 2008 in a single year they found that blacks were 54% more likely to be stopped during the day and that was significant. they offered caution in

determining the results because it is an abrupt different from all the other years and it doesn't hold when they are analyzed together and they couldn't identify the change in the police policy or behavior that could account for that single year so they are a little cautious in interpreting that as being unfair treatment. then what they did is they look and they parsed the data by traffic patrol and the crime reduction team and they found that there was no effect, no disparity at all. and third, the study done in minneapolis was one year and he just looked at 2002 and it looked at the intertwined like period between 5:00 and 9 p.m. and also daylight savings time. and it looked at over 29,000 stocks that could stops, a huge data set but only controlled for

the time of day not the day of the week or the police speed or neighborhood which is an important limitation. so for the intertwined with findings they found that ever more likely to be stopped at night and during the day and then hispanics were 5.1% less likely. now when they do daylight savings time, again looking at different shift because the artificial change that we have when it's day and night compared to whites and blacks were no more or less likely to be stopped, they were less likely to be stopped however, hispanics were more likely to be stopped but the percentage decreased for blacks being stalked was reported they just say we did this analysis and they don't go into much details of its sort of unfortunate. now, just to conclude as a

natural experiment not to the superior weaker design what i did is when i start to read up on this topic and think about what i want to present to you tonight i didn't studies that have a particular finding. i picked studies that have what i consider to be the strongest methodology to try to determine if there's a there is a disparity and so just by doing that, we have five studies to look at and only one of them finds the disparity. so i want to offer a word of caution in this area. these results do not generalize beyond other cities. i'm only talking about the studies in the cities that have been studied so it's very hard to generalize what's going on in dallas or washington, d.c. would say. but also, this research doesn't generalize beyond the traffic stops and so what i want to say

is most of the studies i consider to be methodological superior to other studies tend to find that there are no disparities in traffic stops so that's how i lead my presentation. [applause] our next panelist and we have a wide variety of backgrounds on a panel which i think is to the benefit next panelist is arthur leovy from the university of michigan law school in 1963 and has been a member of the illinois bar for more than 40 years. although he served in a variety of different capacities including some outside of the law he resumed practicing law on a full-time basis in 1997 to read he's a lawyer who has litigated a variety of civil rights claims including those

arising under 42 u.s. section 93. please welcome mr. arthur leovy. [applause] >> thank you, judge and to the society for including me in the panel. i'm going to be thought of my stopped my resume just slightly if i because i think it's important for the participants to have an understanding of where i'm coming from in my remarks. our firm is almost exclusively civil rights works. we sue individual police officers, we sue departments. generally on claims of excessive force. we've exonerated people, we sue

for malicious prosecution of departments and four on four convictions. we've had i can say i think not a modestly a great deal of success over the last ten or 12 years and at least part of that success is indicated by the fact that many of the cases if not most of the cases come from defense attorneys, people whom we've litigated against them frequently police officers whose family members have had problems of their own. also, let me say generally that -- and i say this respectfully to my fellow panel members in my opinion based on my experience, police work, police officers and what they do are among the most difficult people and the most

difficult area to analyze. police officers obviously are given a responsibility in our domestic society that is not given to any other. they have the right to use force including deadly force against other citizens. with that also comes of course and extraordinary sense of responsibility and a lot of the litigation and a lot of the issues that the judge has indicated to you will be discussed today and had very much to do with police officers and police departments. in my judgment you cannot really talk about criminal justice in the united states without an understanding of how police departments work and how police

officers work. obviously there's a great range just as there's a range among all of us and who we are and how well educated we are or not, what our political philosophy is, what our social philosophy is, how well, how low we are adjusted to the jobs that we are doing. but there are certain currents that can be generalized about and i would like to address some of them today and it might appear somewhat contrarian but i do strongly belief that the things i'm going to talk about are not factors that are easily determined on the basis of studies that can only be determined somewhat anecdotally, and i'm going to express some of those to you in my comments. first of all, i would suggest that throughout this country,

small departments, large departments, urban departments, rural departments, departments that have today with very serious crime, departments but for the most part deal with less serious crime. the one theme that runs consistently through the police departments is their inherent or maybe learned behavior not to discipline their own. discipline within police departments is i don't want to say laughable but it's disrespectful. but the fact is it is inadequate let me give you just a couple of examples. in almost every department in the country that we've had experience with, the discipline of an officer if he is accused

of wrongdoing and if he's accused of the wrongdoing and nothing happens as a result, if his own department chooses not to exercise discipline, that charge doesn't become a part of his personnel so if a police officer is accused of sexual assault on a monday and it's not sustained using the language of the department and he's accused by another individual on wednesday, when discipline is being considered in most departments, they don't look at what happened on monday. if he is charged again the following week they don't say maybe there is a pattern that is existing in. it's not how police departments discipline. as a result of that, police officers can engage in conduct

detrimental to their departments , detrimental to the citizenry as a whole. the way in which citizens complaints are processed in police departments almost universally is inadequate and set up in such a manner as to have the person making the charge in a position of not being successful. all of us know that on a traffic stop or even criminal activity the first reaction might be the cop did it, he was the one that was involved, he pulled me over for the wrong reason, searched the further wrong reason and for the wrong reason and police to the shore suffered a lot from charges that are unfounded, can't be substantiated and are sometimes just to protect the

person being charged. but that doesn't negate the fact that in police departments all over this country, the strong assumption is a citizen is wrong, the police officer is right and there is rarely in any department i've had experience with, and that includes most -- that's not fair, many of the major departments in this country have never seen an internal process that really works the way that it is intended. just a quick example. we are litigating a case for a man that was wrongfully convicted, living on the street at the time he was convicted of a vicious rape. for many factors, his conviction was overturned and under section

1983 we are sitting on his behalf. not at the time that it happened this is now almost 20 years later but as a result of the discovery we find letter's from other policemen very unusual and we know there were other policemen because it came through departmental mail saying that they saw the subject beaten them if they saw the subject being given information about the rape of which he was accused coming in after being beaten for a while, the fellow said i = everything, anything you want me to. this was internal. went to internal affairs. internal affairs and turned over to the prosecutor, data and turn didn't turn it over to others who were investigating. that's an extreme example but anyone that is familiar with the internal affairs department of

most big-city departments i don't think would be surprised. there is another area that is difficult but in order in my judgment to understand the criminal justice system, you have to understand police, and sometimes we call it the lion and sometimes we call it just police protecting other police but it's what happens in hundreds and hundreds of cases that we have had that have involved excessive force. one policeman has never testified against another. he had a case where a young man -- i'm getting out of time already come i'm sorry. i hope that this story. a young man was beaten in

straight, a marriott of myriad of civilian witnesses including some clergymen saw that it happened. he was accompanied by four other police officers. the policemen denied the bad conduct. the other for police officers were deposed under oath. people that are testifying in other people's criminal trials, people that testified in jail, people that raised their hand. one of them said at the time of the beating he had to type up his shoes so he walked several feet away and that's where he was. the second person said i heard somebody yelling in the crowd so i left the scene and went there. the third person says you know i thought i forgot some keys back in the car. police the police officer left the scene to go back.

for persons with yeah i saw my partner leaving the scene, so i thought that i would join him. that's how police testified against one another. it's denial and/or its just i couldn't have seen it because i was doing something else. i don't say any of this as criticism of the men and women who put their lives in danger and the men and women who serve their communities while, but i will go back to the point with which i began and that is for an understanding of the criminal justice system it takes more than statistics. it takes an understanding of policemen, their departments and the reality of how they operate. thank you. [applause]

thank you, arthur. our next speaker is michael tremoglie who is a former philadelphia police officer, corporate executive and now a journalist and writer. he was an editor and investigative journalist for the philadelphia bulletin and has written for the philadelphia dalia news on the philadelphia philadelphia inquirer, pittsburgh tribune review come inside magazine and the "the washington times." he is also the author of a novel a sense of duty derived from experiences on the police force. in 2008 coming he started a wrestling club to help philadelphia's minority and inner-city youth to be competitive with suburban athletes. i now welcome mr. tremoglie. [applause] good afternoon. i want to tell you a little

about myself and what i've done and what i can't contribute to this conversation but before i do, i want to read it to you and account of testimony given in the trial of police officer accused of murder after a shooting of shooting of which three or five suspects were killed. the testimony is by one of the surviving suspects he testified one of the officers said the throw up your hands. the suspect sped up their hands into the fourth through open his coat and said he had no gun at the same instant the officers opened fire. does anybody want to guess what that incident was asked >> no gamblers here, okay. the newspaper was the tombstone dalia nugget october 1981 and the incident is known in history as the gunfire at the corral. the testimony is by the convicted for speed and the officer on trial was by it herb to make a -- wyet herb.

it might have started earlier in tombstone arizona. the difference now the testimony by the way was discredited by natural witnesses much as story and johnson was in ferguson missouri. he was exonerated by a grand jury investigation. the difference is that back in 81 people pretty much knew who the bias of the newspaper on today with the journalists pretend to be and to be knowledgeable. that's what i want to talk about today the media and law enforcement. it occurred to me on the ride down here i don't have the rhetorical skills of the other panelists are there training so i had a little disadvantage here. i'm kind of playing rocky balboa at the apollo creed. [laughter] but that doesn't matter because

i was married in the same church as rocky balboa but here are some things i can contribute. first is where i come from a racially diverse neighborhood in philadelphia in fact bob and i used the neighbors tv that are not. college professors and lawyers have not lived. the second thing i can bring his idea behind the only one on the panel and i truly believe i am that not only has a masters master's degree in criminal justice but also yummy when it's been a white police officer in a black neighborhood and have the experience and you have some experiences i don't know about so unlike the other panelists from and he likes to talk about anecdotes, i can give you a few i know what it's like to look down there with a 12 gauge remington shotgun and it looks about as big. i know what it's like to get a call of a rape in process for maternal delights and sirens, arrived at the scene only to recognize it's a domestic dispute as a husband is trying

to pound his wife's head into a sidewalk and try to arrest the guy who's twice my size only to have the life hanging all over me because she doesn't on to me to get her husband. i also know what it's like to get the call from a man with a gun inside the house and nearly shoot a little kid. that's one of the reasons i'm here today. at the third the third thing i can bring artifacts. as john adams once said, facts are stubborn things. and ironically he said as he was defending some british soldiers who were accused of excessive use of force so it's pretty appropriate. it's been said the first truth and this is no less valid when it comes to the propaganda war that is being waged against police. it passes the judgments on the police actions that are made in nanoseconds. unfortunately the perceptions of racism will drive the law enforcement policy tactics like stopping for a sketch of an impact on minorities who are discouraged or discontinued.

this leads to increased crime in the minority communities i know bob woodson is going to touch on this but it occurs because the media only reports those incidents which follow the template of the police of bull connors and if you don't know who he is he's the alabama public safety director responsible for arranging to have fire hoses and attacks unleashed on african-americans who were simply trying to get their civil rights. i'd like to do the little experiment. a little experiment. i'm going to read off the names and i'd like you to raise your hand if you're familiar with them. walter scott. michael brown. eric garner. lasagna hagerty. don't take their. bill caller. bobby dean night. okay nearly everybody knew the

first three and really only one person to the other five. the first three were black suspects shot and killed, unarmed, shot by a white police officers. the next five on the one person knew they were all armed suspects shot and killed by black or hispanic police officers but you never heard about these shootings in the national media. let me describe them. in unarmed black female shot and killed by a black female chicago police officer after a pursuit that the incident didn't make national news and it didn't set off anything. bill taylor was invited 20-year-old in salt lake city unarmed, shot and killed about the same time as the ferguson incident but it never got the notoriety of ferguson. he was shot and killed by a hispanic police officer. gilbert was a white et new york university of south alabama student shot and killed by a black diversity of south alabama police officer. he was needed so there's no

chance that he was reaching for something okay. [laughter] but the national media didn't report it. now what do you think would have been the storyline if the officer was white and the man killed were black, do you think they would be at least one reference? probably. bobby dean night was a 17-year-old shot and killed during a traffic stop. there was a video of this but it didn't make national news like the walter scott shooting data. anthony was a black man shot and killed by a black savanna georgia police officer. but in the african american community they rallied around the officer because she was considered a pillar of the community. while the victim was a career criminal. and this is an interesting point. people in the minority communities are tired of living in fear of criminals into this

comports with my experience as a philadelphia police officer over 30 years ago. so the media police shootings issued a racially worse than that for the outrageous allegations made in the media. the ferguson was the point essential example of this but not the only example and i want to read you a best of assertions made about the actions or policies by prominent media from both sides of the continuum by the way. these assertions were later proven to be untrue. there was an article in the st. louis newspaper that said armed block to be block to be complex or shot a 328 hours. this was repeated by a cnn pundit and elsewhere but it wasn't true. an organization had been issued a report that said that killing of police was 21-1. the report was criticized and even the criminologist quoted in the article a guy named david at the university of missouri and

off since an interview that the public thing needs to be shut down. another leading criminologist studied substantially wrong. the the crime prevention research center is apparently the reporters are pro- public and don't understand the data that they are using. yet despite the controversy the newspapers at the philadelphia inquirer trumped the report per calls in "the wall street journal," "the washington times," national review and the weekly standard won't contain the allegation and you can't make this stuff up. contained the allegation the consumer product safety commission had a sports team -- swat team. it wasn't true. as far as i know only "the wall street journal" had a retraction. .. timothy mcveigh was able to flee

while officers look for arab terrorists. this same claim was repeated in letters they sent to congress ordering them to end the racial profiling act. my time is up. i have some other articles and other statistics. but me just conclude since this is the federalist society, let me leave you with this report -- among the many arguments wise and free people find it to direct your attention, that providing safety seems to be the first. thank you. [applause]

justice stras: thank you so much. we will have some time during questions and answers to have panelists as questions of each other and we can discuss these things in greater detail. our next panelists was the director of the cato institute product -- project on criminal justice. under its direction, is become a leading voice in spring the bill of rights and civil liberties. his research includes the war on terror, the drug war, the militarization of least tactics and in control. he blogs extensively at the cato institute national police misconduct reporting project and has written some interested -- interesting articles about please forces around the country. [applause] >> good afternoon, everybody. i want to thank the federalist society for hosting this discussion and inviting me to participate.

this has been annexed for now year of debate and discussion of these practices and criminal justice reform proposals. according to the associated press, more than 50 measures have been introduced and enacted, pieces of legislation that deal with how the police interact with citizens. my thesis is some of these proposals are constructive and what i am going to do is briefly touch on some of the policy changes that are worth highlighting. let's start with baltimore. the baltimore sun ran a series of articles about how that city handles civil lawsuits that allege conduct that was illegal by the baltimore police. since 2011, millions of dollars have been paid out by the city in court judgments in suits

concerning false arrests and excessive force. the freddie gray case was settled in september for $6.4 million. some of the incidents were caught on tape like the security footage found in grocery stores. sometimes the conduct is so blatant that they will take the footage to police commanders and say what do you make of this? even the police commanders are shocked. when you have officers kicking people in the head, it's inconsistent with that training. what came out is the baltimore sun found something that was very peculiar about how the city was handling these misconduct

claims. they would sit down for negotiations and say we will settle this case for $200,000. but there was a clause and the settlement papers so that when you signed it, you could not speak publicly about what had happened to you. not just you can't talk about

the settlement amount, but the people who settle the police brutality lawsuit are not allowed to talk about the underlying conduct. so if you are a victim of police misconduct and you see next year the officer that was out of line in your case, you cannot speak to a reporter about it. you cannot go to a rally and talk about it or talk to civilian oversight authorities about what happened to your case if you sign on the dotted line. this policy has shielded the scope and impact of this policy from the public, but once it was exposed, the bureaucracy could not come forward to defend it very well. so i am happy to read alert, that is in the past.

it is one positive thing that has come from baltimore and the media coverage on it. another item is mayor stephanie rawlings lake went to the state capital in annapolis. to ask for legislative changes that would allow her police chief more leeway to get officers convicted of crimes off the government payroll. convicted of crimes. under current law, officers convicted in criminal court of misdemeanor crimes like perjury, assault, they remain on the payroll fomany min jdictions arn while they appealed this minor procedures. and jurisdictions around the country, police chiefs will tell you that they already have a pretty good idea who the problem officers are on their staff. but, the disciplinary process for holding his officers accountable is broken. in many jurisdictions the police chief will say the disciplinary process is a joke. i don't have to explain to this audience the many ways in which teachers unions have put in place obstacles to getting lousy teachers fired and out of our schools.

well, we are seeing some of the same problems in this area, but it's with the police unions. to his credit, ohio governor john kasich try to curtail the power of public-sector unions, including police unions in his state, but he was unsuccessful. this is a very difficult thing to turn around. the death of pretty gray has also brought attention to the fact that we do not have data, we are talking about data earlier. we do not have data about the number of people who die each year in police custody. we don't have that number. you know, policing in the united states is very decentralize the. we have plenty of good do make this information transparent, but we have many other departments around the country as will not make such information available.

governor scott walker in wisconsin, to his credit, signed legislation about a year ago after an incident in that state where every year now there will be unofficial tally of anyone killed in the custody of police and that's going to be tallied at the end of the year along with an explanation as to what happened and all of that information will be available to the public. each state should have such a procedure in place. lets me now turn to ferguson. police shootings is another area where we do not have a solid and accurate information. this is totally unacceptable. its observer that we don't have an accurate tally of a number of people who are killed by the police each year. i know many of them, most of them are justifiable, self-defense cases, but still we should have an accurate tally. several media organizations have been tracking shootings this year, the "wall street journal", the "washington post" and other media outlets are now on this

and have been tracking things closely, so i expect next month, the end of the year and in january we will see some lengthy articles about what their findings are during the year 2015 and we can then start to compare to see whether the numbers are going up, down or holding steady. again, we are talking action of the state level last night with the governor, the governor of texas, greg abbott signed landmark legislation that state. all shooting deaths in the state of texas are to be reported to the attorney general within 30 days along with an explanation and there is going to be an annual tally, an annual report put out by the state attorney general in texas, again with the tally and explanation i will be available to the public. this is texas, a very good start this is the type of thing i think we should have in place. if we don't get more action going at the state level, there will be pressure to get the

federal government more involved and federal intervention we don't need that. the state should be taking the lead. these are their police agencies and we should see more actions by governors and state attorney generals along the lines of what governor abbott has done. california enacted a law that said police department's must identify officers involved in shootings. we have seen those introduced in new jersey, that is a special prosecutor will investigate police shootings instead of having the county investigate itself. these are just a few of the best practices that are in place in some local jurisdictions that are now being taken statewide. these are very constructive policy changes in my view and we need to see more of them. the media scrutiny, we have seen bad things from the media that mike was talking about, but media scrutiny on person, also brought about some municipal court reform. the city and county governments in the ferguson area were using

citations as a way of generating revenue for the government. the courts there were not-- not impartially administering justice. they had come to view themselves kind of as an arm of the treasury where their job was to help the budget by levying fines and penalties on people in the community. i was at a conference last week where they were talking about this and he called it taxation by citation. he said the ferguson had turned their police into revenue agents and stormed-- startup community resentment that it's imperative that we have miscible court reform around the country for community relations and he was reminded the audience from the stories back in the bible where the most contested people where the tax collectors and we had to get the police out from being revenue people and back into investigating violent crimes and being seen as protectors of the community. this is not just happening in missouri. i live in northern virginia, fairfax county, last month there

was a "washington post" article that ran with the headline, fairfax police ticket cars for needing inspection. while they are in line waiting for inspection. [laughter] >> it's hard to believe. of these are people trying to come into compliance with all of the government rules and they are getting slammed it. when these bureaucratic abuses are exposed, we do see the left and right come together to put a stop to it, but there is more work that needs to be done. i'm almost out of time, but let me touch briefly on civil asset forfeiture. these are the laws that allow the police to seize property from people who have not been in the good of a crime, not been indicted, not even been arrested these abuses under these civil asset forfeiture law have been reported over and over again by newspaper exposés. over the summer there was a story of a young man who was

traveling from his home in michigan to los angeles, where he would start his career. he had been saving his money for three years. he had his cash and was heading to la and his mother gave him at you thousand dollars because that's what mother's day to help them get started on his career. he didn't get very far, though. his train was going from michigan out to california, and about halfway along his trip police officers came on board. they were going through the cars and they asked to search his belongings and he said sure, fine and they found a lot of cash on his person and they took his money away. they said what was the rationale and he said he was traveling to a drug costs that. los angeles. he said, if you take all of my money am not going to have any way to get home. i don't know anyone in this area and they just shrugged and said that's not our problem. these stories ripple out.

ripple out to relatives, friends and neighbors. it's one of these reasons why there is some growing resentment in communities against what some police department's are doing. georgia will have made the point that with civil asset forfeiture we are treating people worse than the criminals because with the criminals we take their stuff away after they have been convicted in courts. again, back to the action at the state level, new mexico abolish civil asset forfeiture earlier this year. other states are trying to reform the laws, but running into lots of opposition in the legislatures. the institute for justice has been doing great work on this and they issued a report a few days ago where they do a report card on all state laws around the country. i think one state got on a, there were a few b's, but most of the state around the country get c and d, so a lot more work

needs to be done in this area. there is more to be said about police by cameras, militarized police units. we do a lot of work on that at cato as has been said, bail reform measures. governor chris christie put together an interesting coalition on bail reform, but i see i have run out of time, somebody stop here so we will have more time for questions and answers. thank you. [applause]. >> thank you, mr. lynch. our final panelist, bob woodson who is the founder and president person or neighborhood enterprise and has been instrumental in saving the way for resident management and ownership of public housing together task force of grassroots groups to advise 104th congress, the pennsylvania legislature and wisconsin assembly on welfare reform and help create violence free zones and operate in many of the nation's most troubled schools and communities and also

the only person ever to receive prestigious award on both liberal and conservative side, and the macarthur genius fellowship and the bradley foundation prize as well as the presidential citizens medal. i now present to you mr. woodson. [applause]. >> some of my friends said i'm the only non- communistic to win the macarthur award. [laughter] >> thank you, so much. i went to use my time to talk to you from the perspective of the people in low-income neighborhoods particularly low-income black neighborhoods. i also-- part of my resume is that these issues are personal with me because over the course of the last 25 years, i have lost three family members to

violence, predatory violence and two nephews who were put in intensive care coming home from work. they were not assaulted and killed by whites police officers. they were killed by other blacks and so i think that when i find troubling about the testimony in the statements that i have heard today, there's a drum beat to vilify the police department around this country. i believe that police unions and correction officers unions have too much power and they are not being held accountable. i believe that the police because they are representative of the state have an increased response ability, an obligation to be just in the execution of their duties. but, i represent an organization that has 3000 grassroots leaders

in 39 states. most of them are living in those high crime neighborhoods and i am wondering what their response would be to some of the things that i have heard today. we are talking about race, always seems to be the issue that intrudes itself. the problem of always looking at the police to the prism of race, it means that we discount that black lives matter only when it's been taken by a white police officer. and it means that when the perpetrators are black we look the other way. geraldo rivera, for instance had a two-hour special on that rates of women in prison throughout this country. for two hours, in each case the victim was a black woman and in each case the victimizer was a black corrections officer.

but, because the victim and the perpetrators are black it did not generate any large-scale discussion on debate. because we first have to know the race of the victim and of the victimizer before we can become animated to take action and it means that if the perpetrator wears a black face, evil does not-- this case or sensibility. so, i really think that just to personalize it, for the past five years, we have had children like this for 5-year old girl lela peterson, who was sitting on her grandfather's lap in milwaukee, wisconsin, and if she was shot through the head. we have had 25 lakh children under the age of five killed,

not by marauding police officers, but by other blacks. the black community suffers a 911 every six months. there are 3000 blacks killed by other blacks every six months, so we have a 911 every six months. most of the people in those neighborhoods suffer as a consequence of the vilification of the police. thirteen years ago in cincinnati, ohio, when a white police officer shot a young black man who turned-- he thought he had a gun and so civil rights leaders came in an organized a boycott of cincinnati. they also vilified the police, so what the police said after that is since we are going to be accused of racism, we will not be as aggressive in those high crime black neighborhoods and with a result, the murder rate went up 800% in the black community.

the low-income black community. it did not affect the neighborhoods where those pastors and civil rights leaders lived. they do not have to suffer the consequence of their advocacy and so it seems to me and the same in baltimore, the 300 man march. these are young black leaders who are intercede-- intervened between the police and the riders because they have the respect of the young people, they were able to reduce the violence. they are out every weekend on those-- in those hot sauce trying to develop a strategy from within the community to reduce violence by helping young people that are indigenous to take responsibility for themselves. they are in those hot spots and the leader said that in all of these encounters over the years,

they have never threatened with violence, they were only threatened by demonstrator from black lives matter who came in and wanted to chastise them for supporting community-based efforts. my point is that solutions to the violence in the black community, what we have done over the past 10 years is we go into the community that severs the problem, identify indigenous grassroots leaders to have the moral authority to command change from within the community they are the ones who become in powering. fifty-three murders in a five square block area 18 years ago in southeast washington, the police were free to intervene. we organized local grassroots leaders that have the same cultural and geographic of those experienced a problem and many of them were ex- offenders whose

lives had been transformed and redeemed and they were witnesses to their peers that transformation is possible and a redemption is available to them. so, rather than spending money on shot detectors we spent money on these young leaders who pay them full-time to be moral mentors and character coaches within their community with the consequence that terrorists went from 53 murders in a five square block area two years down to zero gang deaths in 12 years. rather than the system investing in other indigenous efforts that have the consequence of transforming the attitudes and behaviors, we have taken this solution to milwaukee where we have 11 schools, where about 60 young adults are employed full-time as moral mentors of character and coaches and by investing in intervention that

are indigenous to these communities rather than vilify nepalese, the grassroots leaders need the cooperation and support of the police because what we experience now is policeman nullification and as long as we come to forums like this and speak about the militarization of the police, talking about the vilification of police, the police will do what they are doing now and that is they will not be aggressive in those communities because they fear being called racist. it will not be the people who attend conferences like this who will suffer the consequence. it will be those grassroots low income black mothers and fathers such as the parents of this young lady who will suffer the consequence, so i think we need to be a little careful and a spend some time talking about how can we do-- reduce the violence within these communities and not spend all of our time vilifying the police

who are trying to work with low income parents to bring about change. thank you. [applause]. [applause]. [applause]. >> i will have questions shortly and we will open up the audience, but i know he wanted to respond to some other panelists and i will open it to others if they want to have a brief time to respond as well. >> let me make some general observations. for people that care about what is going on in this country, there is no one that i heard on

this panel that has a vilified police. to a police responsible, to ask that they be held responsible for what happens in every community, our sons, our grandsons, our daughters, our granddaughters does not mean that they are being vilified. the difference between being held responsible and vilification. i feel strongly about that because these are issues that we have dealt with for both me and my family and our law firm deals with all the time. to criticize is not to there'll-- vilified. to ask that things can be done better by police officers and by police departments, that part of our world can be done and it can be accomplished. it cannot be accomplished if every time that a police officer engages in either an unlawful

wrongful act that he is automatically and without thinking told he is right and who does the wrong thing. police department's make mistakes too. our job as citizens is certainly to do much of what has been spoken by the last speaker, but our job is also to see that the policeman and police departments operate in such a manner as to be responsible for the communities and the citizens that they serve. >> can i respond to that, please? >> yes. >> a couple of things and i didn't get a chance to read some data that i had prepared. i started to talk about amnesty international in aclu and these are civil liberties organizations worldwide, i mean,

they are considered the gold standard. i started to talk about in oklahoma, after the oklahoma city body they said and this was nine years later in a human rights report, they talked about timothy mcveigh being allowed to flee while law enforcement was looking for terrace. aclu against the same thing, what they did, however, was repeated media claims, they repeated newspaper reports. they were not the facts. the facts were that clint van zandt, and fbi profiler immediately profiled the bomber in oklahoma city is a white male with military experience, probably a militia member and within 24 hours the fbi had identified mcveigh and within 48 hours mcveigh was in custody and had been taken into custody when a minor traffic violation as he was driving down the road without it license, which we know a lot of civil liberty unions don't like those minor traffic violation stops. the officer noticed he had a clock and a suicide vest and if

you don't know what a suicide holster is it's when the has a big slap and it's called such because by the time you reach over and open it you will get killed, so they call it a suicide holster. he has already been taken into custody. the fbi 48 hours had him arraigned at an airbase in oklahoma. but, nine years later the aclu, the premier civil liberties organizations were repeating a false assertion. so, the idea that police aren't vilify a ball, they vilified in a sense just by putting out false data. i know people who insisted even after darren wilson had been exonerated by the grand jury, well, grantors are sympathetic to police elimite indict anybody. how do you know this? i could just as easily say the reason white cities get sued and there's a lot of these high dollar judgments or awarded because you find juries who are sympathetic to plaintiff's.

i think they call it the bronx jury affect if anyone is familiar with that term where plaintiff's lawyers, trial lawyers go out and find a synthetic jury and i know doctors complain about this all the time. so, i could just as easily say that as someone could say the grand jury is synthetic to police and the fact of the matter is, i work with people who are indicted, so i know better than anyone here how bad police officers can be and if anyone wants to google the names grover dinwiddie, please do so and you will see guys who i worked with who wound up going to jail. in fact, my cousin made that case against one of them and he called me up and said my, you know grover dinwiddie and i said yet he said what you think of him and i said he's a nice guy. i said what's going on and he told me that he was shaking down number writers. if you don't know what a number

writer is that the bookie. that's on lottery. so, i know that there's an effort-- no one wants a bad officer. i don't like the cost that i work with are bad or brutal. no one in my family like to them. none of my friends liked them. they are bad. they are bad for us and that for the police and bad for society in general. no one likes them. now, there needs to be reforms made within the system to make sure that they are prosecuted. i'm not going to argue that. i will be the first one to help you out doing that, but i believe people are interested in criminal justice reform when trial lawyers start-- [inaudible] >> i will be real happel when instead of having police misconduct sites we will have release of perl bores that release violent criminals,

murders even because 9% of people on death row have a prior homicide conviction. 9% have a prior homicide convention-- conviction. they can about that i will be-- when people start-- when they have websites that say let's take a look at how many people, violent felons, murderers who have been paroled who kill again and that's when i will believe there is criminal justice reform. as a police officer, you get sick and tired of walking up the same people over and over again. forgive me, my wife doesn't have that philadelphia accent and sometimes if you misunderstand me, please just ask me to repeat myself because i do have a heavy philadelphia accent and when i get emotional sometimes this can happen. but, that's when i will believe that people are interested in reform. when they start doing those types of things. >> just a quick comment.

what bothers me, i guess, in terms of the outrage in lawsuits is they are very selective. the very fact that newark has been on the justice department supervision for the last five years for police misconduct, but we talk about ferguson. in the '90s, when eric holder was a us attorney here we had more police officers shooting citizens in washington than any other place in the country, but no lawsuits. no public condemnation of that. evil has to wear a white face before it finds this challenge and that is detrimental to the people that we serve in those communities. that's my point about vilifying the police. it owes us to have a rushville-- racial dimension to it. >> i understand what you are saying. i live in chicago. we all know about the level of

crime that is going on there. but, the statistics, the actual statistics are sometimes very surprising because in the black community the same level of deaths have been going on for many years now. the big difference, really big difference in my generation was used to be an african-american child was murdered in chicago, killed by gunfire and you are lucky if they got two lines on the 20th page. what's happened and is a better thing is that african-americans getting killed is now newsworthy i grew up in an area when it wasn't newsworthy or to the extent that it was it was just a little blurb. now, at least there is public attention being called to it. the solutions are complex and i admire what you are doing in terms of trying to get solutions.

bear in mind, at least today, 20, 30, 40 years ago there is publicity given, reportage given to black on black crime. it didn't exist a generation ago in the big cities. >> let me give you some statistics. numerous studies dating back 40 years have determined that the best-- [inaudible] >> the attitude of the suspect and one professor told me in general if the suspect is acting nasty, he will be treated nasty. a study by boston university professor robert brown in the university of cincinnati found in general, white officers are more likely to arrest suspects of a black officers, but blast suspects were more likely to be arrested when the decisionmaker was a black officer. according to the bureau of justice to statistics from 76 to 98 and black males murdered

police officers at a rate almost six times higher than that of young white males. according to the fbi blacks were 43% of the non- killers of law-enforcement officers during the. 2004 to 2013. a mandated report and i know tim said there is no data-- but, there is data collected by the bureau of justice statistics, a related death report. it says nearly two thirds of police shootings from 1980 to 2008, are interracial. black officer, white suspect. it's also worth noting that three force of justifiable homicide by visit-- civilians is also interracial. so, also, this is another interesting statistic.

general social survey and if you are a social scientist you are used at this report, 12.8% of americans in 2012, don't think police officers should defend themselves even when being assaulted. think about that. this figure has increased dramatically from 3.1% about four years ago. 2008, 64% of the justifiable homicide by police, the officer being assaulted, for those involving citizens, 41% involved in assaulting citizens and another of related death report, which is a mandated report and i think it goes back to the mid- 90s, bureau of justice statistics determined 4813 arrest related deaths were reported from 2003 to 2009, about six in 10 were classified as homicide by law enforcement personnel. the racial breakdown for black relations or that 62.9% of

whites and 61.3% of blacks were killed while arrested during this time. the fbi estimated during the same seven years the state and local law-enforcement officers made nearly 90 million arrests and this means only three out of one-- one out of every 100,000 was-- [inaudible] >> one final thing and it's an encouraging statistic that despite the negative media in 2011, bureau of justice determined 93% of persons requesting police assistance help the officers acted properly. what's more revealing is that those difference between hispanic, black and white, so going back to what he said it seems the average person is not believe the misinformation campaign, but it's important to note that this data is out there and it's not being reported to the media.

as bob said you are only getting a certain narrative of a white officer and black-- that's what you're getting, you are not getting all of the information. you can debate it, refuted, do anything you want with it, you can argue it and say what i am saying is incorrect or incomplete or whatever, but the fact is it is not. there is too much misinformation and i would suggest in some cases this information that is out there about police work. >> i want to turn to specific reform measures and hopefully we will leave about 25 minutes for questions from the audience. i was recently at a conference for state supreme court justices and we saw a program on the use of body cameras by officers and i know mr. lynch, you mentioned that. it's amazing technology and some of them, although, they are quite expensive includes infrared technology and not well

lighted situations and i'm wondering what you think, mr. lynch, and others on the panel about the proliferation potentially a body cameras. >> well, it's not a panacea, but i think it will be a big improvement in police work and will be the best friend to honest police officers. they are the ones that will be able to show that the stop was legitimate, the intention was legitimate and the use of force that may be necessary in some circumstances was legitimate. it will be the enemy to the bad officers, the ones abusing their power. we just published a study in cato on police cameras identifying best practices because it's easy to test what we are hearing the past few months is that spending money, giving them to police officers and getting them on their uniforms, but the issues get more complicated about what you are going to do with the footage was the police department is holding information, should be disclosed in all circumstances

some circumstances and it can be very expensive if you are going to like blur out the faces of certain witnesses who may have been public of the person arrested. so, these are some of the compensating issues. the politicians are all over them when the issues of police misconduct, up, it is their first go to reform, let's spend money on body cameras because they don't want to discuss these issues, so just body cameras and then they want to move on with the discussion, but we are moving into a new era where people have their cell phones at the ready and we are catching more and more police interactions with the public with smart phones and this is a big difference from a generation ago because in the past when someone was complaining about excessive force with the police and the police department denies it and just said the officer

used the force that was necessary, for those of us in the public we did not want to make make of it. we were not there in don't know the people involved and you don't want to think that the officer is sitting, so we do know what to make of it, but now that more and more footage is available we can reach our own conclusions about what has happened whether or not the officer used excessive force or whether he was defending himself and this is kind of like the new thing going on and it's not going to stop. we have citizens with their smartphones of police wearing body cameras. >> just a quick note. again, there's not a single perspective on this. a lot of the homicides, and a lot of crimes are in neighborhoods occurs because people come to the police and report to that police officer something that they have seen. or they provide evidence that allows them to make an arrest.

they are not going to be inclined to do that if they are going to be recorded. they are not going to want to cooperate like that, so i made and i think we need to balance the accountability issue against law enforcement effectiveness in the closing homicides and crimes of. >> i agree it's a complicated issue and more nuance than many people are ignored you and in the media, so i agree with you. >> but, we need to discuss it on both sides of it because when i talked about the vilification of police that is my point. whenever we talk about this and i hear it is always how can we prevent these bad people from doing bad things, that's the message that keeps coming across. >> the other issue is, how do you through the filter of a media that is really only out to crucify for lack of a better term crucify a police officer and it generates controversy and

they sell papers, whatever their motivations are, that's the other thing you have to look at. this may be the only thing that you and i agree on today is that police cameras are good, but if as bob says it's going to intimidate people and it's going to be used by the media or scholars only to justify what they want to present, which is a racist white killer cop, it's not going to be any good. i alluded to in my presentation an arrest i made of a guy that was twice my size who was patiently trying to pound his wife's head into the sidewalk. she had an affair and he was mad at her and it came out as a call for a rape, but as soon as i pulled up i realized it was the domestic issue and i had to dislodge this guy. he is on top of her and hitting her, so i try to push even it didn't work and i got my nightstick and put it under his chin and i lifted up and we both went up and we both fell back and recovered and i got my knife

-- nightstick and he's coming out me at about 90 miles an hour and i'm ready to hit him supposing in that arrest, i would have crushed his lyrics or something. supposing i would have killed him by flipping hip up under his neck. didn't intend to do it, but do you think the wife who probably would contact someone like mr. lobi and want to sue for millions and millions of dollars and she would say she's in danger, no. she didn't even want me to hit him after i rescued her from having multiple concussions or contusions or whatever and that's the type of thing that goes on and i guarantee if that is filmed, what xers will you see on the news? will you see anything that led to this? will you see what motivated my actions to get this guy do it i did to try to dislodge him? i don't think so, sometimes.

>> well, i'm really disappointed to hear mike say the only thing we can agree on is police camera issue. i agree with you there has been media distortion with the racial narrative, but i laid out about six or seven policy proposals, causes and settlements that victims can seek out. municipal court rope form, turning police officers into revenue agents, keeping a tally of death, keeping a tally, we should know how me people are killed by police officers each year, cutting out red tape to allow police chiefs to get rid of problem officers and i laid out about six or seven and you heard him, billy thing we can agree on is police cameras-- i'm really disappointed to hear you say that. >> you will have an opportunity to respond. >> quickly, i share the opinion that the bodam