now she's corrupt. i think we need to remember franklin roosevelt was the governor of new york state during the period which led to the great depression. and that all happened in new york state. new york attorney general now going after the pictures. ..

the vietnam war changed your life. that, i don't understand that because the vietnam war was a democrat war. it wasn't even a war. it was an illegal action. it was -- just blows my mind for people to presume -- >> would you like him to explain that at more, clark? thank you very much. >> guest: the vietnam war didn't turn me into a democrat. i was largely apolitical in a partisan way until probably 15 years ago or so. i was more, a pox on all their houses. caused me to question my own government, to question the wisdom of politicians, caused me to -- a lot of us who grew up in

that time realized we had been lied. to the gulf of tonkin resolution was a lie. lyndon johnson i think was great president, except that he had this vietnam war thing, and, yeah, it wasn't just a democratic war. democratic party war. richmond nixon continued and it sabotaged the -- 1968 nixon san talk to lyndon johnson's attempts to negotiate a trust. the johnson library released a tape of johnson taking to if everett dirk senior and he said they're telling tu not to negotiate with me until after the election, this is trend. and everett dirksn sis this is treason. it was political awakening, not a shaft from republican to democrat. >> host: what are you going to

talk about tomorrow on the show and. >> guest: i don't know. was is so wonderful about a chicago to -- and you get a sense of this --ous just never know what is going to come up and you work with what is in front of you. after this today i'll be looking for the stories, not necessarily the ones everybody is talking about. the ones that -- actually important things are pivoting on. >> host: are you working on another book? >> guest: yes. i'm working on one about the supreme court. this is an area where i agree with phyllis schlafly and gingrich. in fact, if i get this book written i want to approach them about writing a forward or a blurb. i have had them on the show many times. >> the last three hours tom hartmann has been our guest

october booktv's in depth. thank you for watching. >> c-span created by america's cable companies brought to you as a public by your local cable or satellite provider. now walter william, tackling many issues including race, education, the environment, health care, and more. >> walter williams, in your most recent book "american contempt for liberty," you write it's difficult to be a good economist and simultaneously be perceived as compassionate. to be a good economist one has

to deal with reality, to appear compassionate one has to avoid up pleasant questions. >> guest: that is absolutely right. i think that to be a good economist you have to look at cause and effect, and many times people don't want to see cause and effect, and so they -- so an economist will always also talk about cost. that is, when people talk about a benefit to doing something, someone has to talk about cost. and a lot of times people don't like to talk about cost. >> host: so ises an economist a cold-blooded creature. >> guest: i don't think so at all. i think i'm a nice person. i think one of my issues, and to help understand me, is my initial premise is that we each own ourselves. that is, i am my private property and you are your private property. now, if you accept the idea of

self-ownership, then certain acts are moral and certain acts are immoral, and the reason why, let's say, race is immoral, it violates private property. murder is immoral. violates private property, and so is theft. so i think that you can get a fairly good -- i think good vision how the world should be from a moral point of view is to look at the initial premise. >> host: what bat the concept of the common good? >> well, the common good doesn't make a lot of sense whatsoever. i think that the -- a lot of things have been done in the name of common good. what hitler did in germany was done in the name of common good. i think that many horrible acts that we see around the earth, around the world and over the history of the world, has been done in the name of common good

and has not been very good, has not been very moral. >> host: back to your book "american contempt for liberty." many view america's education as a failure but in at least one important way it's been a success. a success in dumbing down the nation so that we fall easy prey to charlotte tons, hustlers and whacks. >> that is absolutely right. if you look at -- i haven't locket at any of the debates but you look at some of the debates, particularly on the tell creak side of the spectrum, you find that americans don't really care about the character of the person and what their calling for our nation, and i think that's because of -- i think americans have become dumbed down by the educational system, but there's another success in

the educational system, and that is teachers teachers and peoplen the educational system have far greater power and fewer accountability standards than have ever had. >> host: you spent quite a bit of time writing about america's education system. what has happened to it? your view? >> guest: well, i think that there's several things that has not been -- that don't portend for the good of the system. i think one has been the growth, mon knoppieizeation of education in our country. i believe the number is -- 1950 there were 52,000 school districts in our country. today there are about 13,000 school districts. so there's been massive consolidation. i don't think that is good for our system. and then i think there are fewer accountability standards, both

for students and for educators. that is, we see that teachers and principals get pay raises and promotions whether the kids can read or write, and the kid get their diplomas whether they can read or write, and i think a startling commitment -- condemnation for the school industrial is the fact that -- the school system this fact that incoming flesh college are not ready for college. i think something close to 50% have to take remedial education, either in reading, writing, or mathematics, and that's saying that the public schools -- their issuing flawed leapt diplomas, a diploma that certifies a kid can read and right at 123rd grade level when in fact he cannot. >> what do you teach at george mason. >> guest: in microeconomic

theory, and in the fall i teach our first ph.d course, teach them the microeconomic theory, and the spring i teach intermediate, an ungraduate course in economic theory. >> host: what too you want your students to learn by the time they leave class? >> guest: i think if -- i would love for my students to share my values, but i don't talk about my values in class. what i hope that they gain from my class is to learn how to think. that is, to learn how to engage in dispassionate analysis and hopefully if they get out in the world and get into policy commissions, if they can engage in dispassionate analysis they can come up with compassionate policies or ideas. >> host: what kind of education did you have and. >> guest: i think i -- well, i tell people -- it's not nice of

me to say this, but i tell people that i am very happy i received virtually all of my education before it became fashionable for white people to like black people. now, what i mean by that is that when i earned a c in high school or in college, that was a real, honest to god c. when i earned an a, that was a real honest to good a to earn. those people did not care about the legacy of discrimination. they didn't care about my handicaps of being poor. they held me up to standards, and i think that is very good, and i think that many students, both black and white, are not held up to high standards. for example, in my junior high school, one of her assignments was to write a three-page essay, and i received my essay back from the teacher, on two

occasions, torn into four pieces with also note on top of it, at least you could spell correctly, rewrite. but if a teacher did that today, the teacher might be in a lot of trouble because she might be hurting the kid's feelings of self-esteem. when i was going to school, teachers didn't give a damn about my self-esteem. >> host: in fact in your book, "up from the projects," your tight piography, you write about a dr. rosenberg, believe it was, teacher. >> guest: yes, my english teacher in high school, and i thought very highly of him. but he used to come to school early and he had -- taught us college english. those kids who he saw that had some college potential, they would arrive at 7:00 in the morning and he would drill us on english, topics and grammar. anyway, one day in class, what

he had the habit of doing was to write a sentence on the board and have one of the students correct the sentence. and so one day he wrote a sentence on the board, and a student found the error in the sentence, and he was about ready to erase the sentence on the board and i raid my hand and i said, doctor, there's another error, and he look at it and said, what is it, william? i said there's lack of agreement between the subjective and on tough of the verb "to be." he said, very, very good. you're very alert this morning. and so i said to my friend sitting beside me, here i'm paying taxes for the teachers to teach me and i had to teach me. he heard me help went into a tirade. he said, williams, teaching you this material is like casting pearls before the swine. you're never going to be anything. he was really frustrated with me, and legitimately so because i was kind of clown in class, but his addressing me that way

was the first real challenge i had in high school, and i ultimately graduated second in my class, but i needed that kind of dressing down. can you imagine what would happen to a white teacher telling a black -- saying the same thing to a black kid today that dr. rosenburg said to me. he'd be kicked out of the school, called a racist, condemned are not not caring about the students' self-esteem. >> host: what does race have to do with economics. >> guest: there's a lot of confusion between race and economics. i think that race has played a role in our country in terms of the economic well-being of, let's say, of blacks or other discriminated against minorities. hi has had an effect.

but in my book "race and economics" i point out one thing is that this discrimination does not explain as much as people think that it explains about the problems of race in our country. >> host: and this is from a column in 1997 you wrote: for years i said if the klu klux klan wanted to sabotage black academic excellence they couldn't find a tool more effective than the public school systems in most major cities. you're going to junior high at about the time of brown vs. board offed of indication. >> guest: high school. >> host: did that change your classes? >> guest: no, it didn't. i went to a predominantly black school in north philadelphia. market of fact, benjamin franklin high school and at the time it was the lowest rate school in the city in north philadelphia, predominantly black and low-income, but however, if you can imagine a time tunnel, and you could pull

benjamin franklin from 1954 up to today, benjamin franklin would be one of the highest rated schools in the city of philadelphia, and the reason why is that standardsers educational standards have plummeted so much. now, my statement about the klu klux klan, i've often said that if you wanted to sabotage any chance the black economic excellence you couldn't find a better way than the public school system in most cities and what we do see in that most americans are unaware of, particularly black americans unaware of, that is the average black high school graduate or the average black high school 12th grader has the read, writing, math, and civics knowledge of the average white seventh or eighth grader. that is a devastating statistic

that is where a majority of blacks, they graduate from high school with a grossly fraudulent diploma. now, the quality of education that white students get is nothing to write home about. because the standards are very, very low. that is, according to recent national assessment of educational progress statistics for 2015. i think that's only 30 or 40 percent of white students score proficient in reading and math. so, for blacks, it's seven percent score of proficient in math and ten percent score proficient in reading. >> host: why those disparities in results in. >> guest: well, there are probably a number of ropes. one has to do -- a number of reasons one has to do with the education system in general. one thing we have to recognize

is that there are many inputs that go into education, and if some of the inputs aren't there, doesn't make any difference how much money you spend on education. education would not occur. in other words, what i'm saying is that, for a kid to do well in school, somebody must make sure that the kid is in bed by 8:00 or 9:00 at night. somebody must get them up in the morning and get them to breakfast. somebody must make sure he arrives at school on time. somebody must make sheer hi does his homework and somebody must make sure he minds the teachers ump if that is not done, i don't care how much money you put in oeducational budget. education will not occur unless those things are done, and if you request the question, can politicians do those things? can the president of the united states make sure a kid is in bed on time? can a mayor or can a

congressman, senator? no. you need a parent, and by the way, i think you need two parents. >> host: when did -- in your view, when did this start to switch? when did the standards become dualities and when did the change in education begin and why? >> guest: well, i think if i were to try to find a time, i think during the '60s and '70s, standards began to change itch remember my mother talk be the preachings of doctors spock saying you responsibility spank your children. well, regardless of what dr. spock advised i got spanked. we started to -- in terms of education we started to move away from things that worked very well, to things that up sod

good. went from things that worked well to doing things that sound good, and things that sounded good weren't very productive. matter of fact, one example of it is that i live in a high income neighborhood in the state of pennsylvania. but -- and my wife had been trying to get me to move my daughter out of this fairly good public high school, and i was resisting it because the tuition at the private school was like $14,000 a year. this is back in the '80s, and what convinced know move her to the private schools was a parent-teacher meeting that i had with her teachers, and her math teacher -- six teachers in the room, along with me, and the math teacher said, well, your daughter has not been turning in her assignments on time, been

sloppy work, has not been paying attention. i say, why didn't you flunk her? he didn't know anything about it? he said, well, we don't like to flunk the kid. we want the kids to feel good about themselves. and i told him, i feel good about myself every time i solve a set of quadattic occasions. so i went home that evening and told me wife, let's start looking for private schools. >> host: did the standards change? >> guest: oh, yes. matter of fact at the -- one of the thing at the private school, we were interviewing several private schools and the school we ultimately decided to send my daughter to, the head mistress of the school said we don't hire education majors. that is, if you teach a course in english, you have to have your degree in english. teach a course in math you have to have your degree in math, and also, if my daughter was slack on some of her work, we knew within the next two days because

they sent an interim report home, and if she did something very well, we would know that as well. >> host: in an interview you did with the national review magazine, you say: i'm not a member of any party. i'd call myself a jeffersonian or madisonan liberal. we need to take back the word liberal because the people who use it to describe themes today are not liberal at all. goes on to say that: williams is in large part a libertarian, what some people call a classical libbal, though he says he splits with many libertarians on national defense and foreign policy and he doesn't mind being label a conservative. >> guest: well, i've been called a whole lot of things in my nearly 80 years of life, but -- yes, i think we need to takee9+m liberals. will be recall means you're for personal liberty, and people who

call themselves liberals today, they're not for personal liberty. they're for things thick using government to -- thing like using government to forcibly use one american to serve the purpose's of another and they're anything by free tom oriented. >> host: how did you get from the projects of north philadelphia to economics professor at george mason university here in the was suburbs? >> guest: well, it was not an easy trip. one who has gone from where i started, to where i am now, you don't do that without luck and chance, and help from many other people. it's not -- i'm not a self-made person. but i think that very significant about my journey is that it's a wonderful testament

about our nation, that is, just because you know where somebody ended up in life, you can't be sure about where he started. and i think that is so great about our nation. that's part of the uniqueness of the united states, that is, we're not a class society. that is, in europe, if you don't start at the top, you're not going get to the top. but in the united states it's possible to start at the bottom and move all the way to the top. and very interestingly, if you look at the -- look at forbes list of the 50 or 100 richest people in the united states you don't find the names like rockefeller, carnegie, ford, and all these people. you find new money, you find steve jobs. you find bill gates. and it's relatively -- people who start out with relatively

modest incomes and moved to by the richest people in the world. i think that is a great -- that's a great commentary about the united states, and it's something that we should work hard to preserve. >> host: why haven't you watched any of the debates so far? >> guest: well, i'm not turned on by politicians that much. i think that the political -- they're very important but i think that politicians are salesmen, and they're trying to sell people on their particular vision or trying to get people to vote for them, and they'll maybe use any tool at their disposal to get people to vote for them, and i'm just not turned on by politicians. >> host: in fact. from "up from the projects" page 128 you it: it's always been my opinion that save for a

precious few congressmen, these people are not deserving of the honor and respect they receive. i regard most of them, save handful or so, as enemies of both me constitution and the moral precepts of our founding fathers. >> guest: that is absolutely right. i think that any politician who would rigorously live up to his oath of office to uphold and defend the united states constitution, he just would not get elected to office by the american people, because what politicians reflect, they reflect the values and views of the american people. that is, those who will elect them to office. now, some people might say, well, gee, williams, that's a little bit strong. well, look, we just might ask ourselves, what would happen to the politician who had the vision of, let's say, james madison, the acknowledged father of the united states constitution, and in 1794,

congress appropriate operated $15,000 to help some french refugees and james madison stood on the floor of the house, irate, and he said, and i'm virtually quoting him, he says, i cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article in the constitution that authorizes congress to spend the money of their constituents for the purposes of ben benevolence you look at the federal budget, three-quarters of it is for the purpose of benevolence. what would the american people do to a politician, or to anybody running for office, who would make a statement like madison did, or make another statement, maddison said -- also said that charity is not a legitimate function of government. now, can you imagine what the american people would do to a politician who said that? so what i'm saying is that

politics are reflecting the values and views of the people who elect them to office, and unfortunately, the values and views of most americans are distinct from those of the founders of our nation. >> host: walter williams, has the tea-party movement been a positive in your view in american politic snooze politics? >> guest: i think so. it's group of people saying let's have constitutional prims. whether they'll be successful or not is another matter. and keep in mind, if you look at the founders of the nation, they wanted very, very limited government. if you read in madison, the federalist paper, when he was trying to describe the citizens of new york what was in the constitution to get the citizens of new york to ratify the

constitution, he said that the powers that were delegated to the federal government are few and well-defined, and restricted mostly to external affairs. those left for the people and the states are indef nut and -- indefinite and numerous. ...

>> we do not find the term democracy and any of our founding documents. that is you do not find the word democracy of the declaration of independence. you do not find it anywhere in the united states constitution. at the listeners want further convincing of this, when we pledge allegiance to the flag, it is not for a democracy to which it stands for in the public. or the song during the 18 61, is the battle hymn of the democracy or the battle hymn of the republic. now the founders thought that the idea of the majority rule was a form of tierney. if you look at the constitution, if you -- the constitution

represents the rules of the game. it is an anti- majoritarian document. that is the president is not elected by the majority votes, the president can veto if he wishes the 535 people of congress and it takes two thirds to override his veto. so there are. so there are many anti- majoritarian aspect of the united states constitution which represents our rules. >> host: in 2010, this is from your book, you write early indications of just the barack obama presidency might turn out to be similar to the failed presidency of jimmy carter. >> guest: yes. what some people are saying, president obama is making jimmy carter's presidency look good.

i think our enemies around the world, they do not have a lot of respect for us. our friends do friends do not have a lot of trust in us. i think that at least in the form diplomacy part of his presidency has been a disaster. i think the domestic aspect of it, with a socialized medicine under obama care, the big business the bailouts and spending programs, i think that has been a disaster for our country. it will take a a long time for us to recover. >> host: a lot of things that we are talking about this election season is income inequality, what does that mean to you? >> guest: it doesn't mean much to me. i think one point we talk about is when we talk about income inequality we should be talking about productive inequality. that is, you very seldom find highly productive people, poor. the people that define poor tend

to have low productivity. then then again, the whole idea of income inequality ignores the fact that there is all kinds of income mobility in our country. for example, a lot of people look at the lower quintile of income distribution. they look at it as if the people in the lower quintile are permanent residence there. turns out there are several important studies, one by the university of michigan and one by the irs, shows that up to 91% of people in the lowest fifth of income distribution, or 91% leave that quintile in ten years. as a matter fact, the the people at the top 1%, 30% of them are not there anymore after ten years. so there is a lot of income mobility. we should not assume that these

different quintiles represent permanent residence for people. >> host: back to american content for liberty, president obama and the party harp about tax fairness. what standard of fairness dictates that the top 10% of income earners pay 71% of the federal income tax burden, while 41% of americans pay absently nothing? >> guest: that is a reasonable question. should the top 25%% pay all the federal income tax? others pay nothing? i think there is a more insidious problem about people not paying any income tax, that is the people who have no federal income tax burden or

liability, they became natural constituents for big spinning politicians. after all, if you do not have a tax liability, what you care about taxes? as a taxes? as a matter fact that points out why the so-called bush tax cuts during the bush presidency were not that popular. again, if you're not pay much taxes then what you care about a tax cut? as a matter fact you may view a tax cut as a threat. >> host: in your view was mitt romney right when he said 41% was never going to vote for me? >> guest: well possibly. >> host: good afternoon. this is our monthly in depth program. our guest this guest this month as author, economics professor, columnist, walter williams. he will be with us for the next two and half hours. we'll take your calls and comments via social media.

you can get a hold of us or make a comment, 2-027-488-2004 if you live in the eastern central time zone 2-027-488-2011 a and the mountain pacific time zone. we have several ways via social media to get hold of us. we'll begin with our email. that is is a book to be as he's been that work. you can e-mail questions there. he can make a comment on her twitter page, on facebook.com/book tv. we have walter williams posted to the top of the page you can make a comment along with the other people let me to comment. if you want to send a text message you can send a text message to (202)717-9684.

we will get to as many as those as we can. that is one of the first time i have ever read that script and not said 202, i know, i know that the pet people of yours, i use the zero. it's a little more difficult. here is doctor williams books over the years. the state against blacks in 191982. america, and america viewpoint 1982. all two. all it takes is guts, 1987. south africa's work of capitalism, 1989. do 89. do the right thing, the people, the economists speak, more liberty means less government, 1997. up from the projects, 2010.

race and economics, how much can be blamed on discrimination, 2011. his latest collection came out this year, american contempt for liberty. doctor williams, i want to go back to your second to last book. how much how much can be blamed on discrimination when it comes to race and economics, and the disparities we see currently in the nation? >> guest: one of the things we should recognize is many things we are seeing in black community, such as ferguson, baltimore, and others, they are entirely new among black americans. that is, the illegitimacy rate among black americans is close to 75%. a lot of people will blame this

on a legacy of discrimination, it turns out in 1938 the illegitimacy rate was 11% among blacks. among whites it was 3% 1938, today eight, today among whites it is run 30%. if you look at the breakdown of the black family, maybe breakdown is a portrait use because the black family does not form the first place. only 30%% of black is live in two-parent families. again, many people will blame that on the legacy of discrimination. it turns out, in 1880s 75%% of black kids lived in two parent families. in new york in 1925, 855, 85% of black kids lived in two parent families. the kind of crime we see in many black neighborhoods is new. i grew up in a project, we did

not go to bed to the sounds of gunshot. many people they did not like their door until 11:00 p.m. or 10:00 p.m. at night when everybody was home. there was far greater civility in poor black neighborhoods, when black people were closer to slavery. only two or three generations out of slavery and there were not the opportunities and far greater discrimination than there is today. what i'm arguing is that much of what we see has absolutely nothing to do with discrimination. the fact of business which is not very pleasant to talk about, if you ask the question in what cities do black people are most insecure? you see grossly, poor education and have at other very poor

living standards, they are in the very cities were a black as a mayor, a black's chief of police, a police, a black is superintendent of schools, and very cities where administration and those cities have our democrats for over half a century. i i am not stating a cause of relationship between blacks being in control of the city and the poor living condition, but what i am saying is that you cannot blame it on discrimination. that is the rotten education that black kids are receiving in washington, d.c., nowhere in the world can you blame that on racial discrimination when the political mechanism in washington, d.c. is black. unless you want to say that black politicians are engaging in racial discrimination and oppressing the people.

i think that when you begin to try to solve problems you have to identify the causes correctly. for example, i could be a physician and you could come to me as a, you have a bad stomachache. i would say will your stomachache is caused by your ingrown toenails. well if there's no relationship between ingrown toenails in the stomachache, i can treat your ingrown toenail and you're still going to have the stomachache. the same thing with trying to help people out. you have to identify the causes of the problems correctly. if you just say look, black problems were caused by legacy of discrimination and legacy of slavery and discrimination, while you can work on that all you want in the black problems are still going to persist. >> host: how long have you written your column? comedy times a week? >> guest: i start with the philadelphia tribune which is a

black newspaper. i think it prints at once every two weeks, then i became syndicated. so i have been writing for close to 40 years. my column allows me to do those things that i cannot do in classroom. that is the kind of discussion you see when i'm on the radio, on television, or having a discussion right now. they never come up in my classroom because i think that his academic dishonesty for professors to use their classroom to prophesy students. once in a while i get a student who will ask a question about something i've written in it column and i will just say will see me after class. because i refuse to possible ice

students. >> host: what is the first thing you say to the students on the first day? >> guest: the first thing i tell students as i say, this is a real college course. you are going to be expected to start sentences with capital letters, find a subject, author, and verb, and verb, and if this is too challenging you should drop the course. i also tell the students come up my classes at 7:30 a.m., my intermediate class on tuesday and thursday. i tell the students, part of my lesson on the first day of class is, the class starts at 7:30 a.m. on cold days in february. it starts at 7:30 a.m. when the sun is out and the birds are chirping in april. so if it passes too early for you, you should drop it now.

>> host: does it sell out? spee2 while while the class is a must always full. >> host: i want to show some video here. you will understand what it is, it is a friend of yours. >> people from time to time mention some black conservative writers. i tell them them 30 years ago i could have told you, walter williams and me. today, i cannot even keep track of them all. they are over the place. they have their own shows, they write columns, books, i learn about them from nowhere they suddenly appear. there is a countertrend going on. everything depends on. >> how much of a roll have you played on guiding them, the conservative black writers? >> i have no way of knowing, you would have test them. sometimes i'm credited on having influence on someone, but walter

williams for example have arrived at the same conclusion i have before i met him. so that we can reconstruct these things that's what i call putting two and two together and getting seven. walt had a known idea before i ever came along. >> that is from 2005. who was that? >> guest: that was a very good longtime friend and colleague, we met in ucla in 1969. he came out as a professor in 1969, in 1970 he joined the faculty. i never took a class with him but we became instantaneous friends. i think our spreadsheet began when he called me up and said, i just got some royalties on a new book, would you like to go see

the mohamed ali fight? that that was when mohammed ali came out of retirement fought fraser. that was the fight that he lost. against joe frazier. we have have been friends ever since then. we think we are very much alike, but we are not twins in terms of our thinking. >> host: what about his, that he he cannot count the black conservative writers? >> guest: back in the 70s, tom we were working at a project at the urban institute. he was tell me, we want to have a pinochle game among black conservatives we have to play cutthroat. then author, bill buckley joked that times said the epa does not allow walter and tom to fly on the same plane because if the plane crash there be no more conservative economists.

but today there are many people who are libertarian conservatives, i think maybe we are proud to say, at least i'm proud to say that some of their inspiration to challenge conventional wisdom came from you tom. >> host: what is your relationship with rush limbaugh? >> guest: i've laid eyes on them only twice. i've done that show for 20 years. the reason why. >> host: and you guessed hosted it? >> guest: yes, for 20 years. the reason is i'm in new york and he's not there. he is somewhere else. we have only seen each other twice. but over the years he lets me have the show, it's my show. like i on the show. i'm pleased to have good guests,

i've interviewed tom a number of times on his books on the show. i look at rush limbaugh's show as my big classroom. my 6 million student classroom and i could also express ideas on the show that i could not express in the classroom. >> host: this is a facebook comment. these people are right wing bigots, because they absolve them of any responsibility because of what they institute to maintain in the society. in spite of individual successes they still have to navigate successful barriers to profound and relentless white privilege that they don't have to think about. >> guest: i think that is very unfortunate view of blacks in

our country that is, i think it is clear that black americans have made the greatest gains over some of the highest hurdles than any other racial group in the history of mankind. why would i say that? if you add up the amount of income that black americans earn and you look at black americans as a separate nation, we would rank 17 or 18th richest nation on earth. there are a few black americans who are among the world's richest people. there is one black american who is height of the military, there are some black americans who are the world's most famous personality. but the significance of all of this is that in 1865, neither

slave nor slave owner would believe that these kind of games would be possible in just a little over a century. as such, it speaks to the -- but it also speaks to the greatness of the nation. the tax that lies before us is how can we get these claims may be one third, the point is that anybody who would betray black people as poor and down trying, i think that is a racial insult. >> host: we have calls waiting. walter williams as our guests. bob in denville, new jersey, new jersey you are the first caller.

>> caller: high. i am enjoying the conversation very much. the interests open in that doctor williams brought up madison, i am wondering if he is familiar with richard's book, plain honest man? >> guest: know, i am not. >> caller: and it he describes the shift from the principle of federalism for one of our supreme court government. i guess general washington's troops that were threatening to march in philadelphia, for lack of payment. over time there became a never and understanding that stronger centralized government really was critical to our nation's survival. hamilton felt that way, morris felt that way, others felt that

way, and that it really constitutionally is not an issue black-and-white because there has to be a partnership between the federal government as well as the states. that remains today. i'm not arguing about principles of conservativism. i'm asking you, do you recognize the need on a continual basis for a public, private partnership between the centralized federal government as well as the states, and as well as private enterprise? i am wondering if i have a follow-up question later. >> host: we have a lot of callers waiting, so let's respond to that and then we will move on. >> guest: one of the issues is the important issue is not whether something is a good idea or a bad idea, the question is

is it permissible by the united states constitution. much of what the federal government does is not permissible by the united states constitution. and a and it calls for limited government. as i said, i gave the madison quote and said in the federal's paper 45 that that the powers of the federal government are few and well-defined and restricted mostly to external affairs. those are the people in the states who are indefinite movers. now, i would like like to see where we have change the constitution to say, the federal government has unlimited powers. so what we have done is we have made changes in the constitution

without having a constitutional amendment. the framers were wise, they gave us article five as a means to amend the constitution, but we do things now and we say the heck with the constitution. i think that is a big mistake. >> host: in your book, liberty versus versus tyranny you quote tom paine, government, even even in its best date is but a necessary evil in its worst date and intolerable. >> guest: that is absolutely right. we americans should realize and recognize that the history of mankind has been that of arbitrary abuse and control by others. the founders were not perfect but they tried to move us away from that. the main enemy of mankind throughout its history is government. that is, if you look at the

20th century, it is the most brutal century in the history of mankind. i think something like 69 people lost their lives in wartime, but that pales in comparison to the number people who were murdered by their own government. the number comes up to somewhere close to 100 million people murdered by their own government as a matter fact these statistics are documented in a book called death by government. so it shows that it is a strong argument that government is an enemy of mankind. as a matter fact, the framers of the constitution recognizes that. just look at the language of the bill of rights. it says things things like, congress shall not abridge, congress shall not disparage, congress shall not infringe. if the framers did not think that congress would do these things, why the world with a put

them in the constitution? i suggest to people that when we die, if we look at the bill of rights and we know that where in hell. a bill of right and heaven would say we couldn't trust god. so the framers that the enemy of mankind is a government. but we realize we do need some government as tom paine was pointing out as a matter fact, the whole second amendment argue that the right to keep and bear arms, most americans think the framers gave that, they gave us the second amendment, the right to keep and bear arms they wanted to protect our right. they think it was for deer and

duckhunting. but the framers actually say, to allow americans at some kind of defense against abusive governments and people like hamilton said things like to allow the american people to protect themselves against the representatives if they are betrayed by the representatives. who in the world ought to be representative except the united states congress? so i think the framers held a great distrust of government that americans today, i think we love government. the average american love government and the reason why is because government can do those things for them that if they did the same thing privately, they would go to jail. if government can take my money give it to you but if you came up to a god and

took my money you would go to jail. but if you go to congress and say will you take williams money give it to me, you do not go to jail but you have my money. >> host: if you do text in a message for walter, please include your first name and your city so we can identify you. this is a text, without first name and city. is the welfare system intrinsically intended to keep poor people, mainly of color and poverty? >> guest: i don't think it's intrinsically intended. i don't think that the intention. i think the intention for well intended people is to help. but i think that when you look at the intention of a program, when you look at program you should ignore the intention and ask what is the effect? i think the effect of the welfare has been devastating for black americans. the kind of thing to see among black americans today are entirely new, as i said earlier.

there is no more material poverty in the united states. there is no more material poverty. we have nothing like you see in bangladesh, afghanistan, afghanistan, all these other poor countries. what we have in our country is poverty of the spirit. that is where people have become dependent on government programs they are not self-sufficient. that is the the kind of poverty we have today. >> host: tommy, in texas. >> caller: good afternoon. i have four things i would like to pass on to mr. williams. in the 1950s, it wasn't until the 1950s that black people in this country were not considered human beings. the next thing, the ku klux klan

is a horror organization, for years no government official have ever approach the police department have ever done anything that would be effective to get rid of such a group. the third thing, is the black lives matter movement, the fourth thing is that immigration when i was growing up it was black people wanted to go to school with white people. black people wanted their own, they wanted a level playing field. immigration is called black people in this culture country to lose their foundation. it was a a time when my mother who had another kid, she would physically take that kid.

we lost our teachers which were watching over us and would report our parents if we were not acting correctly in school. with integration took place, the white white teachers were scared. it was like it was a standout. there is tension between black students and white students. >> host: tommy, quickly before you get walter williams to answer, tell us about yourself. where were you you raised, how old are you? and please clear by your remark on the black lives movement. >> caller: i was raised in dallas. my first encounter with the system, i say the system a police officer, i was nine. >> host: what year was that?

>> caller: i'm 64. that was back in 1958 or 59. that's what they did back then. they would come in and tell you when you are young, i was very young. they wanted to get you under control. that is one incident where i consider to be racist and a bigot. but my experience with police officer has not always been bad. i have had some that had the right to arrest me but they didn't. they gave us a chance, they sent us home to our parents. >> host: very quickly, what did you say about the black lives matter movement? >> caller: this is why -- when i was 19 i was shot six times.

i wish shop by my stepfather. but it was a black on black crime. the reason i'm interested in the black lives matter movement is because i don't think anything has really changed. these young people which is our children now, they have heard over and over what the politicians have to say. these politicians go to washington and they been going to washington since the 60s. we are finding out that really nothing is done because the black movement is still suffering. they're still doing the same thing that it had done before. >> host: okay we have a lot of information, thank you you for your time this afternoon. walter williams. >> guest: he doesn't have any specific questions but i would comment on let's say the black lives matter. for example, if you say look,

this year there will be 8000 blacks were murdered in the united states, if you say may be shot and killed 200, would that make a very significant difference in the number of blacks murder this year. one of the tragic things about the problem, the crime problem in many black neighborhoods is that 51% of homicide victims in the united states are black. it turns out somewhere around 95% of them are murdered by another black. so, if you focus attention on what police are doing or what white people are doing, you will not deal with the problem of a

black lives being destroyed on the streets, because most of them are done by and murdered by blacks. so, i don't quite understand the black lives matter movement. if you asked these people, look lets mike the heroic assumption that cops murdered 500 blacks. still, you are talking about overwhelming percentage of blacks were murdered by other blacks. what are you going to do about that? if you just focus your attention on blacks were shot by policeman, you just missed the boat. the murder rate will continue. >> host: from our facebook page, tony is very selective and uses numbers to fit his ideology facts.

he is selling the pro-right-wing agenda that that supports the top 1% and blames the minorities for the situation they have been put in. >> guest: that's the kind of thinking that is a requirement for continuing of what we see today. it's just pointing the finger at places that are ill relevant to the problem. we just do not get anywhere that way. if you want to blame -- ou blame rich people, blame the top 1% for these run schools that black is go to, so you round up the 1% that are rich, you take all their money, take the houses, what the world as a going to going to do for the black kid in high school in washington d.c. that cannot read and write at the seventh-grade level level? what is it going to do for him? it's not going to do anything. it might make some do-gooders feel good.

>> host: michael is calling in from fayette, alabama. >> caller: good afternoon. thanks so much. it is an honor to have this privilege of asking a question. >> host: i apologize, we hear from you once a month. if you you could get to your question that would be great. >> caller: i want, or how can i say, it's about the way that campaigning politician, and and think take lobbyists, founders and their other spokespeople probably use the word freedom and liberties and how washington involvement in the economy is going to somehow take away our freedoms and liberties with the constitution protects? i'm i'm

not standing up for president obama at all, but even though i am a white male, as a born-again saved christian with both a mental illness and are very rare birth autism, that's why talk too much, i, i don't see how those who are impoverished from no alt of their own, civilians in the third world, specially with their civil wars, children born into poverty, and handicap people, if washington provides assistance to united way agencies, federal work projects such as public buildings, public schools and all that. >> host: michael, i think we got the point. the importance of washington helping out those less fortunate >> caller: i believe it is praiseworthy and laudable for people to help their fellow man. i think it is praiseworthy by

reaching into your pocket to do so. i think it it is worthy of condemnation to help your fellow man by reaching into someone else's pocket. i think for the christians among us, when god gave moses the commandment, thou shall not steal, he did not mean thou shall not steal must you have a majority vote in congress. >> host: darrell, tacoma, washington. please go ahead. >> caller: thank you. first off a professor congratulations on still be in. you have been around a long time. you as a individual, you have two distinct disadvantages. first of all for people to think like you given the same factor come to the same conclusion and then you say you are right in all things, but your college in 1980 or so had the -- i want to

hear you and it changed my life. what i wanted to accept it or not, you are factually correct. you gave a statistic that the group has received more federal assistance than anyone else in the americans or the native americans, yet they had more the problems in society than anyone, you make the recommendation that night and i wish i remember them all. he made the recommendation that if we would do certain things we would be successful. but the key and i will try to be quickly, the the key is you said something about politics and

here they had an election about eight years ago where white male against a black female. the white male, i came in, i just moved to the area and his credentials were incredible. twenty years of working and et cetera. so i'm the other party said nothing about what they think, what they believed, except they represented the black race. as a black person i took the other person because what i fought for and i'm sure what you far for is that race should not be determining factor as to who you should elect. but it should be on qualification. what is surprising is, is, is very clear working,.

>> host: can you get to the point? >> caller: i told them, by me working for a white person is the same as that we would on whites to vote for a black person. >> host: okay we will leave it there. did you get get anything you would like to respond to? >> caller: when he was talking i was thinking about the lecture i gave i think at trinity college some years ago. one of my objectives when i give lectures were generally when i talk to people, i don't don't try to get people to necessarily think like i do, although i would would be happy if they did. my objective is to try to get people to challenge conventional wisdom. that is giving them some ideas which will enable them to challenge conventional wisdom and reach their own conclusion. i never tried to say i want you to think the way i do.

again, i would like them to do it but i give them some evidence to cause them to question things that they had not question previously. >> host: you write, for most of my professional life i have traveled frequently. sometimes boarding out commercial flight two - four times a month for a speaking engagement. over the past three years, the frequency has fallen to an average of once or twice per year. the reason is simple, i do not, i do not want to be arrested or detained for questioning some of the senseless airport security procedures. do not get me wrong, i am for security but against two pdt. >> guest: i have a very low tolerance for the tsa people. i think this is a number of years ago. i i was traveling and i had a carry on luggage, in my carry-on luggage i had an eyeglass repair kit.

the tsa person told me i could take the screws but i could not take the screwdriver. and i said said that is stupid as hell. whoever hurt someone hijacking an airplane with an eyeglass screwdriver. so he said wait here. so his superintendent came up and asked me, and i repeated myself. he said it's on the list you either leave it here or you do not on the plane. so i would not have gone on the plane but the people invited me set up a banquet and things like that and it would be awful if i did not show up. but i just do not travel commercially anymore. now, i just travel in a private private plane. the people want to have me give a talk, and it's a very costly proposition. i will just go by private plane. i just do not deal tsa because i'm too old to go to jail. i am not as compliant as most of

my fellow americans is. >> host: you have been in jail? how how many times have you been arrested? >> guest: i think i've spent three nights in jail. as a matter fact, my step other used to joe, is that you are not a real citizen unless he spent time in jail. one time my first time in jail as a taxicab driver at the time, i was driving down the street and there is a cop in the middle of the street for no obvious reason to me. i learned later he was holding a parking spot for his body. so i asked him if he wanted me for anything, he just ignored me. i said look, if you don't want me for anything, get out of my way. so he came up to the cabin asked me to repeat myself. i repeated it. he yanked me out of the cab and told my customer who i had a will a witness that he be on his way or get charged with interference of arrest. so i was taken to jail. he need me in the groin. i was really in pain.

initially i was charged with disorderly conduct and resisting arrest. when i i got back from the dr. another charge had been levied, assault and battery on a police officer. that was to provide cover for him. so so i spent a night in jail. the next time i went to jail, again i was driving a taxicab and i came to pick up my wife. she is not my wife at the time, she was microfiber. they microphone. they had a loud, rowdy party, the police came to the house in north philadelphia. my wife's, sister's husband, a big guy he picked up two cops and threw them out in the street and sick to stick to his german shepherds on him. so they call for backup and arrested all of them. i asked the officer, officer, who placed me under arrest, i said what are you arresting me for? i just got here. he said we are resting you for

frequenting a disorderly house. then the third time, i was married. we were in los angeles, i had an argument with my wife. so i got up and walked out of the house at one or 2:00 a.m. in the morning. to to walk off my anger. i was walking along and the policeman stop me. he asked what i was doing. and i said i'm taking a walk. he said. he said this far from home? yes where i live. and i said yes, and i think you you ought to walk once in a while yourself. so that remark made him call in the station to check my record. it turned out, out, this is a los angeles, it turned out that about four or five years ago from that time, i got a parking ticket that i did not pay an award was issued for my arrest.

so they had to arrest me. the worst thing about it if i had to call my wife who i just had an argument with to come down and bail me out. i think the bill was like $50 or $75. >> host: did she come down to the station? >> guest: yes, and and i got a lecture two. i met connie when i was driving a cab in philadelphia. we used to go to speakeasy at the time, in pennsylvania and burroughs had to close at 12:00 p.m. on saturday night. a bunch of us cabdrivers and some of the their wives and girlfriends would meet at this luncheonette across the street and go to speakeasy at until two or 3:00 a.m. connie started dating a cap driver who is a friend of mine and i was talking to her before he got in.

as a matter fact i gave her my phone number and i said why don't you call me once in a while. later she said she thought i was being arrogant because girls do not call guys. she eventually eventually did, to meet a girlfriend of hers. i went to the house and met her girlfriend and i asked if she i would give her right home. we became friends, and we married. we are married almost 48 years when when she passed away in 2007. we were together 50 years. for some people a long marriage it would congratulate us for being married so long and i said no you don't have to congratulate us we are both apathetic. i can do better and she can do better but we are just too lazy to try. >> host: who is devon?

>> guest: she is my daughter. i had i wanted five children and my wife did not want any. the reason she did not want any is because she was the tenth, the last of ten children. she was obliged to take care of her nieces and nephews which she did not want any children. so after we were married 14 years we finally did have a daughter. so we settled with one. but then i kind of got even been because when my daughter went away for college sometimes i would go down to get a water or another glass of wine and should be sitting and watching tv with tears in her eyes. and i would tell her, if you had five children we would not have an empty nest. so you are to blame for your sadness. >> host: what is devon doing

today? >> guest: she teaches. she teaches high school history and ap history. >> host: private or public school? >> host: private school. >> host: hello caller. >> caller: hello professor, as i've been on hold for a while i have got about a dozen more comments to make. i need about an hour, is that possible? >> host: sure, you just go ahead and take over. spee3. >> caller: a lot of what you're saying is true. but i would like to give some contrary, you mentioned think i guess, change your conventional thinking. i think that is one of the biggest problems we have is

that people take these big assumptions and can't really examine and think. i would challenge you to do the same. i do agree with a lot of what you're saying, however, in a big government it is a problem. in one of the major reasons is controlled by largely the wealthy, big money. we have socialism for defense contractors, while companies, big egg, pharmaceutical companies, so when you look at the money, sure poor people but who stands up for poor people? you know what, not everyone is going to be an entrepreneur. what i would like to see is a country that recognizes that janitor who works hard, if he is working hard should he be able to put a roof over his family's

head and have medical care? spee1 i i think we have your point. walter? >> guest: i think what the caller talks about is the wealth and handouts to big business and others in washington, i think the problem is not necessarily money in washington, i think the problem is the power of congress to do favors for people. that is to give one american the privilege that is denied another american people. so what we need to do is strip congress of that kind of power, to play favorites with different americans. so you would not find money -- like various packs and political organizations, they are not giving money to congress for congressman to uphold and defend the united states constitution. they're giving money to congress

because they want special favors. they want access. i think that is the big problem with our system. that is the big problem with a lot of the stuff going on in congress. and getting the export, import bank that gives huge handouts and i think one of the things we have to recognize is that the only way they could give someone 1 dollar is to confiscate that dollar from another american. so i agree with the caller in the following sense, we need to do something about these handouts that congress is handing out. i think we need to do it down the line. handouts in general.

when people say we just have to have food steps or people will starve, i say look, when the poor irish were fleeing the potato famine in the 1840s, arriving in new york with just the clothing on their back, how in the world did they make it? was there food stamp program? of course there was not. people say we need this program in that program. i say how in the world did we make it? how do we become a rich nation without all these programs? well another area people say government should do something about inflation or government should do something about the recession or depression. it it turns out that from 1787 until 1930 the federal government -- we had recessions and depressions, and no one thought that the federal government ought to intervene to creek the

economy. it was not until the hoover administration and later the roosevelt administration that people thought that government should get involved to correct the economy. as a result of they created the longest depression we have ever had. that that is during the entire 1930s, i dealt with the unemployment rate went below 19 or 20%. it was not until after world war ii that we solve some of the problems with depression. so, in general you are hard put for finding out some good things done by government, except that are protecting individual liberties and rights. >> host: boyd, call lean in from st. louis. hi hi lloyd. >> caller: hello. how are you?

>> host: lloyd, go ahead and make your comment or question. >> caller: so this is what i would like to ask about the three fifths clause and the founding fathers who are slaveholders and also what about the 13th, 14th, 15th amendment. i will stop there and hang up and i'm looking forward to hearing the professor's comments to those things. he keeps talking about the founding fathers. if he just turned on them will still be in slavery. >> host: lloyd, before we give an answer give us a brief snapshot of yourself. >> caller: i am a retired schoolteacher and it an attorney. i went to what you call and all colored high school. at any rate, we had a good foundation. i graduated in january 1953. my integration was the military

in college. during that generation they produced a lot of outstanding black folks who are called colored then. but i will stop, and i will hang up. i'm. i'm looking forward to hearing the professor's response. >> ..

for the house of representatives. and so the concession made was to make blacks, the slaves count as three fifths of a person for the purposes of apportionment to the house of representatives. now, whether he would want this, but he argued on the side of the southern states to count each black is one vote which is if they were counted as one vote it would give the southern states far greater power many of the founders did not want. they were against slavery.

if that abolish slavery during the convention they're would not have been a union. one has asked the question, what blacks have been better off if the north wind their way in the south on their way and that was not a union created between, did not become a united states. i don't think so.so. i would disagree that blacks would have been better off under those conditions. as a matter of fact, wilson from new jersey said, at least we have outlawed slavery, the slave trade and that might be a good start for outlawing altogether. in terms of the founders vision of slavery i had many, many quotations from

the founders, including george washington, james madison, george mason, thomas jefferson that condemned the idea of slavery, but there is one thing that we have to recognize. again, this is not giving any moral sanction slavery. throughout history slavery has been the normal state of affairs command it turns out the blacks will last people to be enslaved. the term slave comes from -- it's a reference to the slavic people. the slavs were among the 1st slaves. as a matter of fact white americans were enslaved command that is why jefferson sent troops to tripoli to free american slaves that were enslaved by the northern african countries. and so i think that the

unique thing about slavery in the united states and slavery in the united states is that on the western world, i should say, is that great britain and the united states where the two countries that went to the greatest pains to limit slavery. part of the effort was to eliminate slavery. slavery was the normal state of affairs. i'm not giving any sanction to it, but it was the normal

state of affairs. united states and great britain to the most to and that abusive and ugly institution. >> rob's calling in from port saint joe florida. >> all right.right. hey, professor. i did not realize you had such a long rap sheet. what a public menace. you brought the constitution and the framers up. the framers designed to secure liberty did not as james madison said cannot rely on parchment barriers, words on paper. it is great that we have all of these rights and privileges, societal and natural rights but there on paper. it is fantastic. however, their system rely on separation of powers.

excuse me. probably every school kid. i am 60. i learned we have three branches of government, legislative, executive, and judicial. however, with the framers inserted which we don't have today are senators representing there states. the framers recognized that the only rights that were actually secure or those that had an interest group behind them. the 10th amendment is a dead letter because the states are not in the senate. begins think the state senate for that. we cannot return possibly to freedom in this country until power is once again dispersed, dispersed widely which means among the 50 states and the people they're that created this union, -- >> we will leave it there

and get a response. >> well,well, i think that the caller is suggesting and is absolutely right, the loss of power by the states because of the senators, they are not obligated by the legislatures of the very states. in the 10th amendment means very little. but also the 10th amendment means very little because of the war between the states. some people call the civil war. i think it is incorrect to call the civil war. jefferson davis no more wanted to take over the george washington wanted to take over. it was really a war between the states. with that settled it settle the issue of secession. and once the issue of secession was settled by brute force the federal

government can then do anything it wants. the very fact of eggs for people to live up to their contractual agreements. then again there's the issue what can we do to restore economic freedom or to get us back on track? and i say, well, i don't want to be too pessimistic. are we as americans, as human beings any different people, from the romans? from the french? from the portuguese? from the spanish? from the british? these are great empires of the past that went down the tubes. her doing many things that

we are doing. are americans to expect any different? are we any different as human beings? i think not. i think we also have to recognize that personal liberty is rare in human existence. the liveries that we know in the western world in the united states are relatively where in human existence. and so i am all too afraid that historian writing 200 years from now will say there was a historical curiosity. people are free mostly in the west. they had some liberty, but it all went back to the normal state of affairs arbitrary abuse by others. which way are we americans had it?

tiny subset of time, headed toward more personal liberty or toward more government control over our lives? you have to unambiguously be the latter. and so i don't see the trend in the other direction. >> we continue after this quick look. ♪

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writing this to me, he responded with all those people involved in my life who did not give a damn about my self-esteem. >> they held me accountable to either there own standards or help me accountable to other peoples high standards in general. and so for example at ucla where i went to graduate school one has to in order to get a phd one has to take a theory exam and three other areas, and when i took the theory exam 16 students took it and 14 font. i was among the ones the

flock. and they had -- it was two professors who sat down with you after the exam and decide whether to kick you out of the program. one of my professors told me , walter, your exam was among the worst. but we think you can do much better. and so they gave me reading assignments. an account of the office and discuss the journal articles and sometimes a company office and say, you just said something. come again next week. and next week or next time i came i felt very good. and then when i took the exam again i passed it. they did not give a damn about the legacy of slavery. but they held me accountable

to standards they held every other student. we are not going to have you live up to the standards of white people. we will have a special standard for you. that would have been insulting. better economist as a result of their holding me to the standards. >> and your phd is from ucla. >> yes. walter williams is our guest. fifteen minutes left in this months in depth program. we will put numbers on the screen divided over you live in the country. we have also got several methods of social media where you can contact and make a comment walter williams. we will flash through those as well.

email, facebook, twitter, text messages. if text messages. if you send a text please include your 1st name of the city and state. this is a tweet that you have received, and it is from chris heller. can you talk about your experience? >> milton friedman was a free-market economist, nobel laureate. he has done outstanding work in economics and a lot of his work had to do with consumption function, a lot of it had to monitor policy. one of my mentors ucla while visiting professor and they audited his class.

i was afraid to take it for credit. and then after i got my doctorate we engaged in several activities. one was to write a stunning limitation amendment to the united states congress, spending limitation and we wrote the amendment and it was carried in the senate, passed in the senate in 1982. it did not make it to the house and we offered again in 1986 and it did not pass the senate. when it sought to do was put a limit on federal spending. milton friedman, even if you disagree with him you had like because he is everyone's uncle. one time he called me up. maybe 1978 and i was in a debate on educational

vouchers, school vouchers at harvard university. and it was shown on wgbh, w douglas harvard back then. milton friedman called me the next day and said your points are right on the money. he brought up important points but made one fatal error. he did not smile. when you talk about liberty have to smile. i learned that lesson from them to try is much as i can to smile when i talk. >> from our text message field vince patterson and texas wants to know what you think of the true flat tax proposal. >> i think that we need to

do something in the way of a flat tax. get rid of some of the loopholes in the current tax system. i wouldsystem. i would never support a flat tax must be got rid of the income tax because if we did have a flat tax we would find it would have income tax and the flat tax and i think some years ago dick i was just a 17 percent flat tax withholding exemptions for dependents. and i think that would do away with a lot of the hanky-panky we see in washington. if you look at the two most powerful committees of congress the house ways and means committee in the senate finance committee and these are where lobbyists go to get congressman to rig the tax law in their favor.

and so if we do have a flat tax we would get rid of much of the congresses ability to play favorites with different americans. that won't be given to someone other american. >> donald trump wants to bring jobs back to america. >> well, the later you bring jobs back to america is to get government out of the way. getting rid of a lot of the regulations, taxes, and i think that we would see an upsurge. keep in mind that we became the wealthiest nation on the face of the earth long before we had all of these regulatory programs. for example, from 1787 until the 1920s the federal

government was only 3 percent of the gdp except during wartime, 3 percent. and so how in the world that we go from a third world backward country and 1787 to the richest country in the most powerful country on the face of the earth without all the shipment programs? the reason we did was because we did not have all these government programs. and he asked the question, people say, well, you need housing and urban development. you need to hide agency. well, the american people build some of the greatest cities in the face of the earth before hud was established back in the late 50s. and then it was only after had only found a lot of our

cities went down the tubes. wetubes. we always have to ask that question, what did we do before? it turns out american education was on a higher plane before the department of education and after. and so we find all these different programs come all these excuses for decrease in the role of government in our lives without asking the question what do we do before. >> michael, oakland, california. you are on with walter williams on book tv. >> what do you think about immigration, illegal immigration specifically, especially economically? that is my question i will take it off air. >> i welcome people to our country. we have a huge country.

we have plenty of resources and a matter of fact, that has been our history, people coming to the country legally. i do not think that people should have a right to ignore our laws, check the 1st up across our border illegally and think that we should do something to ensure, to protect our border. what we should do about the people who are here illegally, that is a more difficult question, but i think that we could clearly and easily answer the 1st thing we ought to do is to secure our borders and make sure that the people that we want in our country are here legally and then also there is a security issue. terrorist organizations, if they want to put dirty bombs

, bacteriological agents in our country they just have to send the agents to mexico and comments are texas, arizona, new mexico and open up sleeper cells in our country. and so i think that there is a national security issue here as well. >> the text for you, doctor williams. i'm a 25 -year-old half black and half white male from virginia. i was wonderingi was wondering what your opinion is on the new political correctness movement and the sudden cry of cultural appropriation from self-proclaimed allies. >> people say to me, you can't say that.

i say i can. what we ought to do is ignore these people that are demanding we change your language to accommodate some particular values that they might have. >> front page of the new york times was this article about halloween costume correctness on campus. feel free to be you but not me. an article about what is acceptable. pocahontas, caitlin jenner called poncho villa are no news. you can be a crayola crayon. >> our grandparents would be shocked by the kind of things we accept today. >> do you see political correctness? >> probably so.

i ignore it there as well. i don't see it in any of my classrooms and i'm not politically correct at all. and my colleagues tolerate me. i think i start my 35th year there. his tenure an important thing? >> i think we ought to eliminate tenure. you don't have tenure. the average person does not have tenure. schools like the university such as hillsdale college. >> where you used to teach. >> where i used to teach and then still on the board of trustees. we don't have tenure. what tenure does, tenure does not allow you to keep

your high quality professors what tenure does do is make it difficult for you to get rid of your rotten teachers because they have tenure. i think the same thing happens in public education. teachers have tenure and it makes it difficult or costly to get rid of them. but it does not allow you to keep the good people because people are competing. >> you are on the year. >> i heard the professor equating the irish coming here during the potato famine to the black experience and almost fell off my chair.chair. there is no comparison to what the blacks and irish suffered.

>> i didi did not say that. >> you said they had a find and dandy. they came here with 2500 terrible conditions and look how good they did. they had a flying start compared with the blacks had. >> we will leave you on the line. >> you misinterpret. when people say you have to have food stamps i say comeau well, what did the poor irish who fled the potato famine, therefamine, there was no food stamp program. that is the point i was making. >> i am going to move on. he said if you elected black mayors, black police you kind of said that in the cities where they have elected blacks the crime is still high but i will say to you that does not mean the people underneath them are

not racist, mean people. a black police chief will still be racist. i live in a town where you can count the black people on one hand. when i called in the 1st thing out of the police officers mouth is i bet it's a black person. there aren't even any around here. you can comment off air, but i know i heard you correctly everyone was looking. >> before we let you go tell us about yourself. nope. we will never know. she hung up. >> i don't know what to say. let's move on. >> david chicago good afternoon. >> good afternoon. it is a great honor and pleasure to speak with you today.

my question is, early in the program you remark that you don't see existing inequalities of wealth and income as necessarily problematic. i argued. i.out that very often the economic game is rigged against people who could be described as latecomers and outsiders.

one example is the taxicab industry. what does it take for a person to get into business; or operator of a taxi. it does not take a lot of capital. get a used car and some insurance and learn the city streets. it turns out to new york city the license to own and operate one taxi cost $700,000. in boston 400,000, chicago 300,000. what is the effect they tend to get people out there don't have $700,000 lying around for her don't have been credited to get such a low. the game is rigged.

another law that discriminates is the minimum wage law. a lot of americans, most american support the minimum wage law out of intentions because it has good intentions. when you look at law should ask what the intentions are but with the effects of such law. you must pay $7 an hour. if you must pay $7 an hour to no matter whom you hire will you are that worker who is so unfortunate, so as to have skills which will only

enable them to produce $4 with the value per hour. pay somebody $7 an hour when i; his foreknowledge of the value. for the low skilled workers? for the most part they are teenagers of low skill because they lack the attributes of adults. black teenagers not only should the handicaps of teenagers in general but the additional handicaps of living in run neighborhoods going to run schools. what a wage law does is cut off the bottom rungs of the economic ladder because if you could pay a person $4 an hour at least you will be working in gaining

experience. the middle-age cuts off the bottom. the law that restricts employment for blacks and restricts -- that discriminates against nonunion labor. if you read -- and the act is still on the books today. if you read the testimony in support and get a march 316513 of the congressional record you will see all the statements from politicians saying see that contract, he brings cheap: labor from the south and puts them in cabins. competing with white america. in my book racist unions in south africa with major supporters of minimum wage laws for blacks protect

white workers having to compete with low skilled low-wage black workers. in the united states we don't use the same rhetoric, but the effect is the same can't discriminate against the employment of the least preferred worker. there are many regulations on the books that create disadvantages for disadvantaged people. we focus on discrimination. other than looking at the rules of the games that discriminate against less preferred individual. >> i want to show something from your website, certificate and have you explain what exactly are looking for, the proclamation of amnesty and

pardon granted to all persons of european descent. >> i wrote that when i was teaching at temple university. from 1973 until 1980. and when i became a faculty member there was a push for black economics and so i asked my colleagues, how do this? they could not come up with any answers. you are doing these things because you feel sense of guilt. and during the department meeting when i told my colleagues they brought this up what i would like to do is to forgive you for your

forebears so they stop feeling guilty and acting like damn fools. if italian students can do anytime economics chinese students, you throw them out of your office. black students we listen to the argument. a lot of what we see is motivated by white guilt, and that is perhaps one of the most dangerous and despicable motivations for doing anything. >> an article that appeared when you are teaching in temple, racism ?-question-mark, temple professor opposes easy grades. you can see professor opposes leniency. >> i came across this. he has meeting lunch with them.

and i thought she was saying some of the problems he is having, they don't come everyday, many times they are sleeping in class. and so i said, well, what do you do? and so he says, i tried taking consideration. you have electric graphic pencil just like i do. and so he said well, if they come everyday and look like there taking notes are given the sea. i said, you know what your doing? that is like my having a dog in english class and sometime the dog gets on his hind legs. you give the damn dog and eight.

then i found out that a number of my colleagues are doing the same thing and they are motivated by guilt are trying to compensate for the legacy of slavery or discrimination and poverty can you speak to the anti- confederate hysteria currently sweeping the nation? >> yes. i think that people don't really understand much of the history of our country.

i talk about this. in 1783, 1783 there was a treaty of paris. the treaty end of the war between the colonies and great britain 13 subornation , each state was a nation in the states came together and principles can always fire engines. and if you read the ratification documents that specifically saying the documents the federal government because abusive of the powers we have delegated we have the right to rescind those powers right to secede. and so most americans do not

understand. they think that the war was solely to end slavery, but it was for much more than that. the winners of any war like to write its history. the confederacy, they have gotten a bad name and i think that the center confederacy one more step toward abolishing many are symbols. one can argue whether the confederacy was right and seceding and you don't have to be for slavery. but that is an independent argument and all the

evidence suggests they did because the states were principles and came together and created the federal government. most americans think that the states are creation of the federal government. matter of fact, that is the way congress acts. >> tray in fresno thank you for holding. >> the economic theory would not exist.

and that gives rise to conflict and we have to somehow find ways to resolve the conflict and resolve conflict to the market mechanism through government , violence and gifts. without scarcity they're would not be any economic problems whatsoever. >> john and portland oregon and text message.in text message. and what ways do you believe black americans would be better off? >> well, not only black americans but americans in general. americans in general will be more independent. liberal or conservative

free-market, but we have been doing is subsidizing behavior. the duration of unemployment is almost double since the 1940. people pick and choose, hamburger can lower away for something better. i think that it creates a mentality. my wife is a huge family the

youngest children. one that we were over there. i'll give you your damn money. the welfare check is payment. is not only poor people by farmers. they think they have the right to get subsidies. businesses think they have the right to get subsidies. they think you and i should subsidize their advertisements. we become a nation of these that's what we have become, and nation, nation of people seeking to live at the expense of other people.

bill rock michigan. let's try john. john, you are on book tv with walter williams. >> let me make this collect from illustrious doctor williams is a statement. micro- aggression. people make a living on racism to make sure there is something around of the real racism goes away. thank you very much and you look great. >> thank you. my take on micro- aggression is similar to my colleague.

>> text message, should some form of public service be required for full. >> anna.

>> the federal reserve act was to promote bank failures great for the federal reserve act. >> it might not be nice to say in just the people the federal reserve. >> walter williams, your

publisher is the hoover institution press. why do you go with them? >> well, they made life easy for me. that is one. >> you're not denigrating them in any way. >> no. and so it is kind of maybe some inertia, although have been criticized. some people say they don't spend enough resources and publicizing okay. pick up a walter lyons book. they go for the newest book to see how the press connect one book.

>> american contempt for liberty. >> the whole range of topics complex like south africa's war against capitalism. mason economics. >> i think i would recommend that. >> joan bryan texas. >> okay. thank you. this is sort of a personal economic problem. drawn up in a very frugal way of managing the finances.

less than 1 percent interest, big deal. personally where should we put our money? we are afraid to take too many risks. in away with the social security not be increased i kind of feel that my age group has had it. what is your opinion as to where we'll people should invest? thank you. i will listen. >> there are many places, mutual funds that maintain a portfolio inequities in basel you can checkout. talk to an investment counselor, call of ubs merrill lynch people asked

me was going to happen to interest rates, stocks, if i knew the answers i would not be sitting here. >> when you were a teenager you bought shares of pepsi-cola. >> yes. >> out of that happen? >> work at the school and sweep the floor and deliver packages. one day we were sitting talking. he says, you know, i can sell your people and of the time your people was not a derogatory term. i can sell your people shiny vacuum cleaner butbut i could not sell the share of

stock. and so i just listened to him. next line we talk us it was stock. he says, well, he explained was stock is. suppose i want to buy stock. stock. well, to something that you like. they give me a list. but one share of pepsi-cola. and subsequently when i got more, and the cost of the by. and so i started accumulating shares of pepsi-cola and i stop buying it because he got too expensive. so what it did is forced been looking at the newspaper and following the

pepsi-cola share and other socks. i have been on the stock market. fourteen or 15 years old. the.america's if i did not have a job i would not admit that guy. there would be many. other opportunities that would have been denied. >> i was drafted in the army. the labor services work confiscated by the united states government.

with that a very good orientation. some adjustment problems. the adjustment problems led to being court-martialed. about charges against the company commander. before i get the court-martial charges allison. excite this and the chief warrant officer inspecting the forms, you made the mistake.

when we put down caucasians? mark put down the check off. i was a troublemaker. >> something about banning a truck. >> to work with rocks. and so this officer told me to paint track. postage. kaiser crowding around me.

not the company commander but this officer said what were doing. i said i'm paying now truck. then maybe wash the paint off. then i got another job washing trucks but the house inside the engine twice the engine out. they kicked me out of the motor pool. send up to the long-term for the dining hall to be among men. i was kicked out of that job because the head chef, a mopping off the mid- table with the form of. it was a horrendous site. >> long story short i was sent to the battalion headquarters to sweep up every day.

it turned out this corporal was getting discharged and i asked the sergeant major, could i have his job. they laughed and said you could not do it. i say give me a chance. i made some corrections. i became the head clerk of the battalion. i did some things as head clerk because i was in the field of communication, the only black in the field of communication, and they said separate dances on post. it would send the sergeant and some soldiers. cannot take a message? told the sergeant major plenty of mega bus drivers benoni your ncos. when the sergeant major came

in it turned out inspector general from washington was doing inspection of the post but the message follow the colonel said get that is so be up here. so i did all kinds. >> please comment on the tendency of verbal blacks. >> it has not affected my career. i think that for people to

suggest a monopoly on ideas about many of the important issues that is counterproductive. and the ideas that have been put out have been disastrous. i think what we need to have his own ideas. ..

>> >> the adl we should outlaw cigarettes or cigarette smoking, it is a violation of property rights. the issue is not whether tobacco smoke is harmful to others or not.

it is private property rights. for example, if you a restaurant and do not want people smoking it is your right to put a sign outside to say no smoking in my restaurant. if i owned a restaurant by want to permit them to smoke that i see it is permitted. people have the option and if they don't want to come and get under those conditions they don't come in. and then and peopled say this doesn't allow smoking. so most americans support the idea but suppose on the

other hand, there was a majority who said the utility to smoking in your restaurant we will force you. that require you in your restaurant to see that as totalitarianism. now another side effect that is what americans have done has invited government into our lives. i don't know any totalitarian who has said i a.m. tired of tyrannizing people i will address now. point to say if we can control smoking we can control the amount of soda or weekend control what you have in your restaurant or

whether there is salts in your diet. once you tell a person or the government certain areas so we have invited people to control our lives and smoking or the beginning of that is interesting. with the warning signs on cigarettes. they want to no-smoking section in the airplane. now they say none whatsoever. nine in the airport. so always starts off small

then it gets larger and larger almost with any act of government. >> host: you write i am at a loss that humans are not people. >> they are not equal. a lot of people want to pretend that in fact, you are equal. there is no evidence to suggest we're equal. by race or sex. howl in the world would you explain that the jewish a 3% of the american population of 40% of the nobel prizes have been won by them.

how do you explain the? or 66% of the nfl football player. where there are virtually no blacks with the olympic class swimmer. it with that 100-meter dash. there are differences between people even medically. in then did choose kitty sex disease and the indians have the of rates of diabetes.

event men are stronger than women fifth in with almost every measure and during the

potato famine to take these history courses to learn about this that the irish had enough food during the time of the potato famine that they did not have to starve to death and millions would not have had to fly at one dash fleecy ireland but the british placed many military people throughout ireland to make sure the food was shipped out. and also we rarely hear about this and how they were

captured by blacks in africa levin sold to the slave traders. >> i think the issue is there is probably enough work for all ethnic groups for each of us to have our share. in a brutal and ugly world with massive denial. so there is enough for almost every racial group. i don't know any particular that have oppression of one form or another.

and you need not go back any more event 1910 to see signs in an advertisement in the race except i wish can apply. anybody admitted it. so they face discrimination so they face some form of discrimination whether japanese or chinese or irish , i don't know of any other group the be those with english ancestry but there has been discrimination for all the of groups of the united states. different groups responded in different ways but

nonetheless pacing that discrimination. >> here is a text message. >> we will see if we can get this on the air. du recognize them? that is your grandson he is enjoying watching the show. can you see that? baltimore maryland. >> caller: the queue for answering. that i was prompted to call based on your remarks of

totalitarianism the constitution is the of what and if you were denied due process and to make for the denial of the benefit that is though lot. , as a constitution speak for me? if i am not afforded due process? >> in the you have a specific area in mind? >> it could require an attorney.

but it was just unique creative and to go all and end on without due process. >> i don't understand the question. >> we you ever the beneficiary of affirmative action? >> if i was, i don't know about it. but i told the department chairman are you under any pressure to hire a black person? he says now and i will except you but if i find out you are not telling the truth i will quit the day i

find out. in that george they shouldn't -- s. at george mason metal think there were under pressure but if they are to hire a black person and then i don't count. they have to hire a liberal the colleague heard we talking not very nicely to one of my colleagues in he is a friend of mine in she said don't believe anything of racial discrimination in our department he would like to even if you were white. [laughter] that is an observation made by a good colleague friend

of mine. >> host: when i wasn't college in '70s the economic theory was taught to what are you teaching today? >> i teach micro economic theory. as we teach the first ph.d. students macroeconomic theory in in to in the spring i teach under graduate macroeconomic theory. but i did not do very well in the class. i love reading about it but i am not an expert at all. >> during election season we hear politicians talk about doing this or that for the economy.

to politicians have that much control? >> very, very limited ability to do good. they have awesome power to do harm. so when people would say to me with the city college in 1990's i would ask people i got a job teaching during the clinton administration. was clinton responsible for me getting a job? what did he actually do? and i doubt if he even knew.

so they have a very limited ability to do good. they also have the ability to do harm. >> host: i cannot find the book but it is about corporations to take take:citibank to pay reparations. >> go live to of corporations will try to buy off their adversaries. and do things or contribute to the idea of reparations. and i think that as i suggested earlier there has been enough grief everybody should receive reparations

but one of the problems they say we will pay reparations today that means they have to compensate the black people for what the white people of yesterday's did to the black people of yesterday. sova to find -- to punish though white to help the black to compensate talking about reparations i think they ought to be paid how-to's slaves. that is a matter there is no

way we can compensate slaves for slavery. but it does make sense. >> we have about 10 minutes. >> with the effect of the change with the economy based on non savings with compounding interest to the investment of the stock market a and did it take away accountability from individuals and give it to the government? the queue. >> investing in equities in we still have a society if

there is a compounding of interest will not go away. >> host: indiana go-ahead. >> caller: my question is about the government takeover of the college loan industry and how that will affect the economy in the future. five now we're at over $1 trillion. >> what industry? >> and though loan industry was for the college students that the government has basically taken over. >> with all love the defaults that hasn't appeared to be a success. >> host: what does it cost to go to george mason?

>> it is about 16,000. >> host: is that a reasonable amount? >> it is much lower. it is affordable some tuition ruth a. and board talking about 50,000 like princeton or harvard or some other colleges. >> host: has a economist? >> it isn't worth it. i think roughly 40 or 50 percent of kids in college should not be there in the first place. anybody to which is admitted that is not college ready the as is suggested by the requirements that so many have to take remedial english she and math they're not ready.

it is no waste of resources. sometimes i will go to the library they play frisbee i go it 8:00 in the morning that i come back the same kids are playing frisbee. so i wonder if it is three behalf -- very productive for them but many young people when they graduate their parents should make sure they get a job at a car wash or macdonell or other places to gain maturity. in den go back in their 20s having gained maturity go to college in my own personal life if i went to college right out of high-school it would have been an unmitigated disaster. [laughter] so i started when i was 25

years old, married common in the army. >> host: from facebook when it was a young black man in camden you jersey there were jobs with and shipyard factories or retail outlets in the town was systematically he eviscerated the highway was built around the town he is an apologist for the systematic exclusion of african ancestry from economic empowerment by the public and private sector. >> i think that is an unfortunate view. i used to work in camden we worked for campbell soup it

and i would shine shoes and get on the ferry over in camden so it was a flourishing city at one time. but a lot of times what drove the businesses out? and taxes, high crime, poor schools, you have to ask the question isn't what drove the people out of a particular city? you can see that in many cities the suburbanization of the city's a lot of time people talk about the white flight to the suburbs and this is in the '70s but black flight to the suburbs was great then the white people didn't like that anymore than the white

people. so one house to ask the question what created the condition? looked at each right at one time during the '40's and 50's in part of the '60s it was a city with 1.9% million people it was flourishing today it was around 700,000, and the industry has gone and people ask why. it turns out of mayor in the '70s was responsible for a lot of the policy for his successors that iran the industry out of the city. what led to the evacuation of many cities? >> host: how often do you write your column? >> once a week. that is the best i can do.

>> how many newspapers? >> about 140 nationally syndicated with those i have been with the number of years. >> host: massachusetts please go ahead. >> caller: i have been listening and what interests me when our president got elected and i live in a small white community in new england, there was no tea party until he got elected and from my own personal observation and the customers that come in over the last seven years we have a lot of people in this country that are really surprised reelected a black president and his problems for has been because he was our first black president and i rest my case. >> host: what type of business? >> i have a convenience store and in the past they

would talk about my president i have probably kicked of 500 the last seven years it'll put up with that dialogue the people that i know go to church all our -- all the time as white as can be to say such negative things about our president. >> host: if i could take the liberty to read a paragraph from your book book, from 2010. or early in the case to suggest the presidency may turn out to be similar to a failed presidency of jimmy carter that is bad news for the nation but especially for black americans. know why presidential candidate has to live down the disgraced presidency of carter by a fearful of future black presidential candidate will find themselves staring bathyal

the baggage of the black president that is not a problem for those white to liberals who really -- receive their guilt relieving dose but it is a problem for future black americans. >> i am wrong with one assessment that the future black president might have to carry the baggage of a failed black president such as obama with the support that dead person is getting. i think it shows that americans are good enough not to hold ben carson responsible for barack obama. but'' what the caller recognized is black people did not elect obama to the presidency the way he got

into office was through huge numbers of white people voting for him. that alone is a statement about the goodness of the american people that we were able to get around to elect a partially black president. but i think he squandered that goodness among the american people by his presidency. >> host: pennsylvania you are the last word is. >> caller: and i can say walter williams's a voice of reason on every topic and i don't use that word because it is the magazine of a libertarian but i do agree with everything he says.

i want to see him in those long legs in philadelphia as soon as possible how can we get him and his wife to visit us again? >> host: tell us about yourself. >> i am then they'd year-old caucasian libertarian married to the army officer the first joke he told me was the two black men in the motor pool who got into an accident and one said to the other end of war and still blows so believe me and know everything he is talking about and i do agree with him and how can we get him and his wife to visit us here? , back to philly. >> guest: thank you for your compliments. unfortunately i cannot get my