energy of that time. i wanted civil rights so that brought in the famous walk in 1963. i wanted the automobile i wrote about to be the mustang. it was being conceived in '62 and '63 and unveiled at the world's fair in 1964. the book begins with the first motor car review. ...

so it's a very blissful moment to the asserted incandescent. because we all know what is to become of the people. >> next up, farmer karl rove discusses his book. he looks at william mckinley's 1896 presidential campaign. he's interviewed by richard berke keizer commencing editor for national review magazine. >> we are here with karl rove, author of "triumph of william mckinley." mr. rove was a senior advisor for president george w. bush and

the architect of his election and reelection in 2,002,004. his publisher asked me if i would read his book and blurb it and i did. i just want to begin with what i said. karl rove shows how william mckinley used his watershed election to change his party for the political process in the nation. it's all here. the big themes, backstage maneuvers, personalities, hoopla. a great read for historians, political junkies and in our own wild elections michael america. >> i will pay you for that. it was awfully generous. >> let's introduce the man as 1896 began, who was william mckinley? >> guest: in the most immediate sense, he is the governor of the state of ohio and throughout his entire career in the congress firm 1876

through 898, he has become the lead voice within the republican party of the policy and protect the terrace. that is at the surface of the critical battleground state gave no president is in the event the republican between the civil war in 1904 has not been born in the state of ohio did she is an immediate prospect for the presidential nomination. >> how big is ohio relative to other states? >> it is the fourth largest state in the union followed by pennsylvania, illinois and ohio. interestingly enough, two of those states have been consistent battleground states, new york and ohio. pennsylvania and illinois had tended to lean republican bill in 1892, cleveland carries the state about three percentage

points >> host: so what are his ambitions? >> guest: he wants to become president. this is an ambition with some evidence that there has been an ambition his entire adult life. but he gets married in 1871. his bride from one of the founding families comprised and friends upon their return from their honeymoon in new york that her husband who's just been defeated for the county attorney's job wants to be president of the united states. she is thrilled by the prospect. but his object is the republican party has been beaten in the 1892 election. grover cleveland is coming to office. mckinley has been the governor of ohio in the san into a deep

depression and the republicans think the election of 1896 is going to be bears and he wants to be the nominee. but he is not the favorite of the party. the depression happens after cleveland is select it. he gets elected in november and by that time he takes office in march, the economy is moving downward at a rapid pace. and it is enormously damaging. the long-lasting deep depression, literally 15% of american workers have lost their jobs in all likelihood in the end of the year. we don't have good economic statistics. we are talking about hundreds of thousands dean tossed out of their jobs each and every month. one day alone one county in upstate new york at 10,000 workers were let go of. >> as bad as 2008 or worse? >> guest: worse in some

respects it is to some degree these were not up inflicted wounds like we had on the american economic system in the fall of 2008 with fannie and freddie bringing down our financial institutions. some of these were large forces that we suffered through because we are developing country. the american economy in the 1870s, 80s and 90s were terribly dependent upon foreign sources of investment to build fact areas, and the open lines to operate, to build railroads, open up territory to the west. the series of international offense, failure of a crop in argentina, bank in london. this cost foreign investors to pull back and not accelerated what many blamed as the cause of the recession and the ultimate depression, which was the decline in america's old reserves. the government was rapidly getting to the point of

$100 million in gold which was thought to be the minimum amount necessary to sustain the value of the american currency. it dipped below the $100 million level as they cashed in investments and took the gold home, there's a real concern the american dollar would become basically worthless to the american economy is held. the dollar then is backed by gold. now we have paper currency, but the paper current the was a matter of convenience rather than a pocket full of large gold coins you could carry around paper money or conduct your business in paper money, but you could also take it and traded for gold. >> host: the economy and republicans are hungry and hopeful. who's the front-runner? >> guest: the front runner is the speaker of the house from maine. it was an intellectual. he is one of the largest private

libraries many of which were in french. and he had a class at which in the run-up to the 1896 elections he talk about the midterms and said the democrat losses will be so plentiful that they will be buried in unmarked graves. so he was renowned. he was a little ones that the party could do worse nominating someone else for president they probably will. he had a great way. but he was the candidate backed by the leading figures of the republican party. the combine their commonly referred to. the party bosses what are the easy path of new york, former senator thomas collier platt and his running buddy of pennsylvania. bad allies around the country in an odd collection of characters, including one of their age and was james clarkson, publisher of "the des moines register" whose

nickname was right and he got the nickname writes because he apparently had atrocious handwriting and he would always send to the copywriters a column he had written. he was afraid they wouldn't be able to decipher his handwriting. but they have a bunch of agents to move to run the country. the most important of which is colored but also joseph manley who was an aide in maine. he had been an ally of the interparty rival, the magnetic man who's been secretary of state, senate or congress. we have two men from maine who have been lifelong rivals. one of them is now out of politics and the other one has taken a dominant role in the state's politics and pick the

manley who is claimed to be his own man. >> host: what is the division for winning the election? >> guest: while, their vision is first and foremost oriented to what is in it for me. they're very pragmatic people. they want someone who can win the general election and they think i can best be figured out if the convention is chaotic and they hold the cards and make a decision. they nominally applies therefore monthly benjamin harris, the readers become a man and speaker of the house. but the other part of their strategy as let's go get lots of favorites around the country who will unite their state delegations and when we get together ,-com,-com ma nobody will have a majority of delegates. we can get in the back room and cover up the patronage of the federal government to our advantage and unite behind the one-man hillock of us would

want. >> host: so a favorite son as a placeholder. >> guest: a placeholder. some of them thought they could be candidate. because someone has to be candidate. >> host: >> guest: governor bradley has a border state republican who is not frequently seen during this era thinks of himself as one. senator davis of minnesota is an expert is flattered enough to believe he could be one. the governor of the state of new york, former vice president norton is put forward and said he is a potentially plausible candidate but his principal purposes to keep a republican in the pocket because even if he didn't like the easy boss coming out of loyalty to your governor. there's also a couple other candidates who are potentially real candidates. the most prominent is william allison of iowa who was a

workmanlike solid legislature who rates the interstate commerce commission and is actually a legislator who gets things done. most of them are people who think they can be president. uncle shelby from the state of illinois has sought the aid twice before. although he doesn't make it as far as the convention. he is put in the field at the blonde boss congressman william jay lara marr is an interesting there and by john riley the illinois republican party chairman who fancies himself a most become governor. >> host: obvious players are essentially out to sell. what does william kinley out? s. got out to restore. his urban belief is that the policy tears that he had advocated for a great many years

to return to prosperity. he is not a free trader. but he is also an interesting protectionist and not his focus is the american working man. he wants robust, domestic market, high wage american labor and protection from cheap foreign labor import. he is not a defender of high terrace for the purpose of making rich people richer. when he passes the mckinley tariff of 1890, which helps contribute to the republican defeat in the house and is remembered by many republicans is the thing that brought them defeat an obstacle form. in the passage of that, he was calm delay asking people it is not how much do you need to get rich, but how much does your industry need in order to be properly protected from foreign competition. economists today agree in all likelihood the protective policies he advocated did not advance america's economic growth beyond what it would have been otherwise.

but it's hard for us to understand why people felt so strongly about it. his whole vision within nationalistic program of economic progress that benefited the american working. >> host: in those days, what is your read on mckinley or hopefuls, what hurdles do you have? >> guest: that's an interesting question because this becomes the first modern presidential battle. before 1896, what you did in the parlance of the times you put your faith in the hands of your friends. so you had somebody on your behalf move around the country while you stay as far away as possible. you've got your state and a couple other states with friends around the country to rally for your cause. which are expected to go into the convention with some generally sensitive front runner and that there were other candidates enter this process of multi-ballots at the convention,

somebody emerged, became generally the people second choice. rarely did the first choice become the nominee. eventually everybody settled around by making deals. in 1888, benjamin harris receives the nomination after james g blaine who was the front runner and andrew carnegie's castle in scotland reduces to be a candidate and on a sunday morning and is reiterated that is not a candidate and benjamin harrison becomes the front runner because was born in ohio and be, he is a former senator from the state of indiana, one of the battleground states. stephen b. elkins of west virginia seemingly makes a deal with thomas callier platt. platt will be made secretary of treasury and receive all the custom house patriot in the most

valuable office in a country with the head of the customs house in new york city and this will extensively be platt's choice and obviously all the patronage would be connected to platt. which could make him not only the secretary of treasury that the next president of the united states. >> host: so the process we now have which began an iota in january and february new hampshire and even stars for that, you say before 1896 it is all telescoped in the convention. >> guest: yes. what happened was a commensurate with a few gathered together and unite behind none n/a and start for their favorite son, either by formally saying we are all for fill in the blank or simply fade away or spending the delegation from ohio were lame man from massachusetts. >> host: so how does mckinley confront the system?

s. go first of all he goes about it in a methodical, organized fashion. he says i will organize these conventions like we organize our primaries today. i will identify from my long set of points developed by mayors and congress friends inside the date who are going to become my agents and their object will be to systematically organized the local county convention in order to influence and generate conventions at the state level that are dominated by mckinley men who will not be can earn that is on the delegation. all he wants is for the delegation to be instructed to vote for him. so he doesn't try and pick and choose who is going to be on the delegation, but he does pick people in a bold man and authorize them to organize the effort that culminates in a victory at the state convention and he begins this process early. most of the time the maneuvering begins late in the year before the election.

so what happened in late 1895 are more likely 1896. but he begins immediately after the 1894 election. he could make the argument he travels the country some 12,000 miles during the 1894 campaign to travel the country, spread his message of protectionism and prosperity. and makes a lot of friends and allies who want to show up in weekend. he immediately begins in early 1895 to systematically organized the states and does so by going on vacation. mark him as a place in the palm beach -- >> host: who is mark hanna? >> guest: first of all, you've misunderstood. he's not the mastermind of the mckinley after. he's not even a campaign manager. he is a close friend of mckinley says the man who underlies the primary campaign and has a successful iron monger in cold magnet from cleveland,

ohio. he comes from relatively modest roots. they had a good distribution company in southeastern ohio and move to cleveland and cleveland began to take off and he has a mind for business starts out at the very bottom. he is selling tickets and collecting fares on one of theirs ships in its working as a clerk. he's working as a delivery man, but he ultimately rises to the management of his family's firm. when he marries into an even wealthier family coming it takes over his father-in-law's firm and becomes enormously successful businessman. only financial failure that he ever had was as a young man in the immediate aftermath of the civil war he tries to build an oil refinery and almost loses everything in a sports to sell a deep loss to a high school classmate named john d. rockefeller. >> host: how do he and mckinley hook up? >> guest: they meet in 1876,

though neither one of them -- mckinley remembers meeting handout, but hanna has no memory of mating mckinley. it's involved in a very weird thing. they will make his first run for the congress and there is a minor does you in eastern stark county -- western stark county. the miners go on strike in a burden mines and beat badly the superintendent and the mines are run by the company that mark eni hide. so they arrest 27 some odd and try them and nobody could be found to defend them until somebody treasures william mckinley into stepping forward and defending them and he gets all but one of them off. and then when they proceed to give them a $120 fee that they collect, which is a big sum of money in those days, he refuses to fee and instead contributes it to the relief fund for the

families. thereby starting to create a lifelong reputation as a friend of the working man while the company pursuing charges against these miners owned by hannah. hannah is sitting in the courtroom. he has hired the best law firm in ohio and we have this young lawyer who's been practicing law for 10 or 11 years. he is in his early 30s and he takes on the biggest law firm and beat them. hannah has no recollection because he suffered from an attack and he slathered up with sulfur ointment and is so hobbled he can only walk with a cane. as a result even can't japan and has no memory. the two of them are in the same period they come together in eight years later at the ohio state republican convention when mckinley over his objection is to the death of delicate to the republican national convention. he does someone ago because he's for james g blaine and his four senator john sherman of ohio and

mckinley doesn't want to oppose this chief. over his objection gets sent to the national convention where he support the ultimate winner of the nomination while hannah is supporting sherman. >> host: so the first two encounters are on august the ninth. >> guest: in 1888 they both go back to the republican national convention. they got a little bit of a semi-rivalry going. a third ohio character has entered the scene. just to be fire alarm for occur who ran for governor in 1885 and is defeated and elected in 1887. and as governor of the state in 1888 and they go to the national convention in hannah and mckinley are now in support of senator sherman were for occur as trying to make himself be the presidential nominee or the vice

presidential nominee. at this convention, mckinley comports himself in a way that causes an eye to recognize him as having presidential timber. at this convention, the convention still may and mckinley has been the leader in the congress protection. he has played a role in the convention and as a young man he's demonstrated maturity and ability to the 1880 convention may be cancer become conversation about him running for president. but he is committed to senator sherman. when word gets out there is a movement to draft him, he and hannah are sitting in a hotel room and he grabs the 90s telegrams left, writes a brief comment and says this is what i want to say. the next day a delegate -- they started voting on the presidential nomination in the delegate get up and moves for

mckinley and there's talk all across the floor. most of it is ready to go. when the delegate from connecticut and seven votes for them, mckinley rises on the floor from a stance a chair to gain attention and recites what is written on the telegram, which is he doesn't want anyone to consider presidents because he is who he is and by his heart to support a john sherman for president in the city of light on his personal character if anyone were to vote for him. this is astonishing. here is a man who could have potentially swept the convention by standing aside and letting things go his way because it makes him a potential nominee. and then spent the next two days were the convention is in

recess, brutally pushing wherever he years something is when i have been. he shows up and says don't do this. he said i would rather cut off my right arm than even nominee of the party. i would deserve to lose if i would allow my personal are to be besmirched by this. in fact, he wakes up in the middle of the night and years in the next room some ohio delegates talking about how they will go about getting him nominated and in his night close throws open the door and said stop it. hannah is blown away by the willingness to use it the way so he is passionate about it. he had committed and by god, nothing was going to stand in the way. so hannah falls in love with them. mckinley has another very important ally from chicago.

>> guest: he is actually born in ohio. charles dobbs graduates from law school and heads west to make his living. mckinley meet him sometime early in 1894 when dobbs comes to visit him in columbus, ohio. if you run for president i want to help. they meet again october when mckinley stops in lincoln, nebraska for a campaign stop in the midterm. >> host: why still is taken with this? >> guest: he sees in mckinley a man who separate and apart from the gilded age politics. mckinley is a man of enormous integrity and a man looking to the future. is not the kind of sort of brutal patronage republican of the gilded age. das who is a reformer, a young lawyer in lincoln, nebraska has taken on the railroads which evening are charging farmers to high price to get their goods to market. the he's a reformed republican.

he's an interesting character. he is actually sort of tall. his hair is red and a part in the middle. he practices law in my kid in the same small office building that's another layer five years older than him and william jennings bryan. there was an immense debate in the roundtable in the two of them often have lunch with a third pal come in third pal, the rotc instructor at the university of nebraska at a westport first lieutenant. everybody shows up in the tory. he makes some money on someone else a banking deals and investment packing house and he decides he is going to become a notch for newer and moved to chicago, which he does january january 1895 and what is going to do is buy gas utilities to make it economies of scale make a lot of money which he proceeds to do. >> host: so mckinley has a

new strategy for winning the nomination of these capable supporters. where does he want to take the party? >> guest: well, mckinley has begun to demonstrate he's a different kind of republican. the republican party of white anglo-saxon. mckinley realizes the country has changed. our democracy is coming vastly different because relatively fewer immigrants from england, scotland, wales, ireland and germany and comparatively more from scandinavia, central and eastern europe. we've got portuguese fishermen. we've got banished tanners, italian -- you know, italian craftsmen, ukrainian taylor's. the country is becoming very diverse demographically. mckinley recognize many of these people are cap again the republican party has the inside of a bias against catholics. it's the largest pressure group in the country.

an anti-cat that come anti-immigrant group founded in iowa and literally passes a scorecard out on republican and democratic candidates in one of the tests is are they under the control of the papal influence, the papal power? they are big. 13 million members and they are powerful. the biggest group is irish catholics who had been democrats >> guest: another group with some german cat pics and some polish catholics, but in 1891, he is getting ready to run -- 1893 is getting ready to run for reelection as governor of ohio and he is one -- he is won by 20 some odd thousand dollars in 1891. there is 60 some odd thousand members of the apa and ohio and a column up on a friday day here

are two prison guards. you've got to fire them. they are working for the state. we found that they are catholics if you need to fire them and replace them with protestant will call you back on monday. they called back on monday. as a result the apa, russ mckinley they send out instructions to other members and led the governors' race blank and one by a much greater majority in part because catholics days notice of it in the hierarchy in ohio traveled the state to say governor mckinley defended the job of two catholics. >> the republican party meets catholics and immigrants partly because they lost a big chunk of their tradition. >> guest: that's true. in the south of us a black republicans and what republicans are stolen by fraud, deception.

in 1896 we had four states of the union that have a black majority adult male population and that means blacks are voting in the south for the party of lincoln and get mckinley is in the low teens and 20s because you take a look at it. turnout in the north as 88%. 75, 78, 80% and in the south and in the 30s because for the period of 1873 or four on, there's a systematic effort to wipe out the black voters of the south. >> host: eric said the ku klux klan -- >> guest: it wasn't just the claim. there was also south carolina they wore red shirt in order to hide the blood. there is no election that goes by without violence being perpetrated on a large scale.

people being routinely ordered with a simple exercise. >> host: was there any push back against this nationally? >> guest: is enough for the mckinley champion. there were efforts to take away the federal protections in the 1880s and mckinley is one of the strongest proponents of it. in 1888, henry cabot lodge leads an effort to pass a bill to provide protections in federal elections in the south. democrats labeled the force pill and is defeated in the senate by a combination of republicans from the west to favor the bill but one a hostage for legislation and southerners, southern democrats who obviously would oppose what they were doing in the south. >> host: let's turn to the democratic party. he was contending for that?

>> guest: the nomination in 1896 starts in 1893 because as the economy defense, grover cleveland stands for maintaining the gold standard and does so by cutting deals with wall street and foreign financiers who basically bail out the united states by buying bonds in transferring gold to the united states treasure. this makes an enormously unpopular inside the democratic party which has a large agrarian movement and the demand for the free unlimited coinage is over. cleveland even though he's in a second term he can run again. no prohibition. there is about the gold democrats come in a cleveland democrat that cleveland will run again. now he doesn't want to. at some very early point in the process he decides not to. no later than early 1985.

but he doesn't make that clear. nobody is allowed to emerge them aside because everyone's is fun the democrat and believe in honest money, over cleveland will win. the front runner that emerges is richard park who winners the congress in the early 70s and becomes the leading proponent of this inflationary currency. >> host: wise and inflationary? >> guest: the idea would be rather than setting a target did expand the money supply by this%. instead if you got a silver mine anywhere in the world, you can show up at the u.s. mint entering a silver over and you will be paid 1 dollar of gold for every -- one unit of gold for every 16 units of silver and doubtful then be coined and made into money and circulate.

the problem with the gold and silver fluctuated and the time we were talking up in the run up in essence the value of silver, a dollars worth of gold would buy you $2 worth of silver. in other words, each dollar of silver was worth about 50 defense and gold. so if you created a silver dollar it would have half the value of a gold dollar and obviously bad money chases out good. people hold onto that gold and circulate silver and we have inflation. >> host: but that is not bad for debtors. >> guest: well, the debtors in america in the 1890s or summer farmers who by and large except for the bit temptation owners are sharecroppers. what they do is tell them and they don't have any money. so they go to the beginning of the season and he gives you all that you need to live on and put out your crop in britain the crop in the fall and he figures

the value and surprise, surprise, the value is less than the money he went to you. in other words, each year you get a dollar deeper in debt. and then in the midwest the farms are more lucrative, but they also have to go to the merchant and many of them have mortgages. mortgages are held by specialized companies for insurance companies. not by the normal banks and so forth, that insurance companies and mortgage companies while we are in a deflationary period, the interest rate being charged by the mortgage companies and insurance companies are between 8% and 14%. you talk about people hard-pressed come as a people who have a mortgage in the south or midwest. >> host: so you have a gold faction, which is led by the incumbent president, not clear what is -- what he is going to do. and you have the land of missouri's champion of the

silver force. tell us what happens? >> guest: in the run-up to the democratic convention you have the state convention in the silver democrats decide we are not going to settle on a candidate. will actually discourage anyone from offering themselves as a candidate. instead we focus on two things. getting each state to go on record in the free unlimited coinage of silver in repudiating the economic policies and spending a total silver delegation to the national convention so when i get to the national convention the democratic rules or it takes a majority to read the platform but two thirds to dominate a candidate. so we want to get a silver platform and force a candidate, whoever he is to agree to the platform because we will never get to two thirds of the convention. we are not able to nominate yourself or a man but we want to bind him to a silver platform. but they succeed beyond their expectation and by the time the democratic convention opens up they are within a whisper of

getting two thirds. what stands in their way is an extraordinary pair of victories in michigan and minnesota. at the last minute, cleveland prevails upon political friends in his former postmaster general in michigan and the former democratic national committee man in minnesota steps forward and makes efforts to give delegations from falling. both of those states are expected to go silver. both of them end up going gold. >> host: they are close enough to two thirds so why doesn't he walk into it? >> guest: we've got more than one third of the delicate so what we are going to do is hold onto the one third and use it for power and influence to pick between the two silver men, the less objectionable. this is all pretty conventional because we show up at the convention, make a deal, and up on multiple ballots and settled the issue. they don't count on william

jennings or charles dies who conceived of and all as a presidential candidate. 36 years old, the youngest man ever nominated by either major political parties to this day and is also the only candidate i can find who thinks of himself as a candidate, but nobody else does the day before he was nominated as a candidate. >> guest: what happens is they go to the convention of the two front runners are silver and uncle horace voice of violet is a distant second. but there is a big title over the platform and everybody knows the platform is settled. there's an overwhelming majority at the convention. it is just going to be how many votes does each side had and how does the argument play out?

if it is the last stand of the convention. frye and his chosen as the man in charge of closing the debate on the floor and it's completely by accident. there is six actions that lead up to being selected, any one of which would've gone a different direction. but these actions which i detailed the book happen and he has the book happened and he had that been the man in charge of the democrat -- the suburbans close. >> host: he is the concluding speaker. >> guest: he is generally thought to be the opening guide. but the other principal speaker who is going to talk on this is pitchfork ben tillman of south carolina who wants to be the closer. but senator hill of new york who is the leader of the gold forces subject because he knows if tillman closes, he will spend his entire time kicking hill around. so he objects.

but it does this versus tillman. he fights over the issue and how much time each side will have to close to make their final argument. he wants the longer time to speak so he takes the opening argument 50 minutes and gives the closing 20 minutes over to what is supposed to be 30 minute but gets cut to 20 minutes over to william jennings bryan. the final action however occurs just before brian is ready to speak to knows that where the gold manner closing, silberman opens the debate, goldman speaks, goldman speaks, silberman closes. what happens is he stands up. it is so disgraceful. he brings up the civil war. he insults every northern democrat. he excoriates cleveland and he calls this a sectional argument. senator jones of arkansas stands up and says i were the color of the south during the civil war. this is not a sectional argument. this is an argument of man kind.

this is national in nature and for one brief moment of silver men and the bald men stand together and basically cheering jones on them in making the argument -- so what happens is they are running out of time and they've got one worse beaker to give his speech and he is complaining about not having enough time. brian overhears the, says to the leader of the gold forces, why don't we give each side camera minute and what happens is that gives brian to get not a 20 minute speech, but a 30 minute speech and it is a brilliant piece of work and he delivers about a single notes, having outlined in his mind, having played at the final moment and let chicago at the convention was in the days of gold speech and literally when he finishes

by saying you shall not press down on the brow of mankind -- he doubt both his hands down inside of his head. you shall not crucify the man kind, holds out his arms, had this to, chest is out and he finishes ended complete science. he drops his pants and steps back. in the atlantic constitution says the hall was silent for a few minutes more. the hall was held in fearful silence for a few moments more independent place explodes. men and women jumped to their feet, stand on chairs. they wave anything. the demonstration that ensues is one of the great articles of political convention and it moves the sister nebraska and nobody thinks. very few people think is

so you add not just simply a poll of 800 or 1300 iowa and coming in now by random. you had a poll of every single iowa and in that precinct chairman was responsible for figuring out where were they. republicans suddenly discover that 25% or 35% of their voters have left bed and her brain scanned which would've been a huge loss and this awakens mckinley along with some

advice of benjamin harrison that he's got a problem and by mid august and preparing his speech with the exception of the republican nomination in late august when he finally made the decision i better do something about the silver issue. he wanted to straddle it, avoid it, run away, downplay it. he's telling everybody don't worry. this will dissipate in a few weeks. he tells one of his friends, a judge, in a month it won't be talking about this issue. in a month they won't be talking about anything else. he is right. by the end of august he figures it out and starts to tentatively find a way. spends two thirds of his speech talking about silver and a third talking about the issue he wanted to make the campaign about protecting terrorists. >> host: but he is again terrorists. >> guest: he won three gold. one of the first big votes he makes in 1870 after his election

in 1878, one of the first major roads for the passage of the bland allison silver act which reinstitute the currency with silver coin and insufficient for her the free silberman did not buy a to the gold. he tries to straddle it out through the 1880s. he's got a lot of farmers and a lot of people with small-town merchants who think there's too little money. >> host: so is this sudden conviction? >> guest: it is a necessity. he does believe and oppose free silver. but on a lot of controversial questions, they like to emphasize things that unify people. laborers who work gatherers for sheep man and make it into the republican camp where a they split the republican camp.

although western states walk out. montana, utah, nevada, idaho, colorado. one of mckinley's strongest southern supporters, the only republican senator from the south and the cheater prichard north carolina almost walks out because of the free silver issue. so this as a result mckinley wants to stay away from it. he is afraid he named to win but finally realizes they can avoid this issue in late august he begins to tackle the issue but it still takes him two or three weeks to settle on the right kind of language and he does so with the help of the former head of the largest labor union in america and he gives a speech and begins to discover from this crowd at cooper's union life importance of a working man to have a currency backed by gold

rather than a currency backed by silver. >> host: so we have are two nominees into positions. how does each man campaign? >> guest: first of all, brain has one problem he needs to deal with witches the populist party that their prized as they nominated and they have this complicated problem. they've got a million votes in 1892. he wants to take democrats who voted for cleveland in the populist who voted for general weaver and james weaver and thereby sink the republic. cities now got a democratic running mate and a populist running mate and he has to finesse the issue of how do i get that populist running mate off the ticket in battleground states where he can afford to vote. but he decides he is going to turn the country and he will

campaign the country. he has three major trips across the country. the presidential candidate -- this is the first time it's ever happened. the candidate might go on the road with the major ger encampment for a big gathering of some sort. he literally numbered the times they spoke on the road. there has been a front porch campaign in 1888. benjamin harrison basically had 80 speeches that he gave two delegations in indianapolis over a four-month period. but nobody had ever done what brian did which was get on a train and go someplace. it is an amazing testament to his courage because most days in august and september and october 7th, he is generally making his own train

reservations, writing a common car, grabbing a sandwich at a depot someplace and hoping when he got to the end of the line that he would pick them up at the hotel reservation. sometimes he's got a private car. he makes the trip through kentucky and tennessee, virginia and he's got a private rail car provided it is sometimes he's writing in the middle -- the head of the populist campaign committee senator from north carolina writes his compatriot and the democratic national committee and james jones and says you've got to get in a private rail car. i saw this with my own eyes. we took a late train to baltimore in at 8:00 in the morning. we waited until 2:00 a.m. to switch trains, got them on the train and we caught the little train and there were a handful of people there.

you're going to kill them if you keep doing this. you could take the ability of fall asleep. he moved on and the trade would pick them up in the middle of the night. he could wake up refreshed, have a place to have as close, wash his face to make it a meal. until october 17th traveling. >> host: so he is going everywhere. >> guest: he is being pressed to go on the road because once panic set in, it is unstoppable. he is now by late july and early august beginning to believe that better race on our hands and he keeps pressuring mckinley to go on the road. he says he no look, i can't do that. if i go on the road, he's got to get on a trapeze and i will have to mimic him. if i go on the road -- i've been on the road before. i know what it is like. he sends charles g dawes to go talk to them and since my routine character talk to him.

finally, mckinley says i've got to think before his date. people are already showing up in groups to see the majors so somebody and i think that somebody's mckinley says what makes that my routine. let's get it organized the people don't simply show up and say hey, we are here to see you. let's set it up so we know who's coming. let's invite the people we want to have come so it's not just the people who volunteer to com. if it's a critical voter group from a critical state, let's know that they are coming, and have them say what they want to say in advance of the can edit it. each time they show up we will have been made at the station, take them under an arch to the courthouse square. we will have them up there, have banned all kinds of entertainment to keep them occupied. when the moment comes, we know how long it takes them to march up market tree. they then com have an organized program. they can say what they want to say. if i've got time i will shake

everybody's hand them but go on to the next room. this becomes a campaign on industrial scale. 750,000 people come to canton, ohio. on some weekends 100,000 people come in groups of varying sizes and it's like a regimented thing. they show up at the station, go to the town square. the men pick up cigars. they do well in town. sometimes the community takes special groups and feet than at the tabernacle. they have appropriate drinks for the men. they've got a to a and a sandwich and if you are trying to get a cup of coffee and a sandwich. they come to the nature and industrial scale, but is unified, organized and delivered. he knows what he wants to say. it is tailored to the individual audience and repeated by them when they go home. i saw the major and here is what he said. >> host: which of these two men do you think addressed more

people? >> guest: i am convinced by the numbers (-left-parenthesis where people. the estimate is two to 3 million people. he would go everywhere and there were people. he attracted spectators and mckinley attracted supporters. people went to see -- it was targeted. cms has created an army and his campaign was based on the principle. we want to create an army of people who will serve as surrogates and advocates. they organized everybody. they had groups for blacks and germans, women because some women could vote in western states. the organized traveling tales, the commercial club. these are people who traveled widely come as oak while a new lots of people. there was a

politics has changed. but if what you are looking on as a strong principled leader who is able to change politics, those of you that you. >> host: karl rove, this is an entertaining book. it is packed with information. it has wonderful little details. my favorite detail is the question of who is going to give the opening invitation and attention at the association and so is it going to be a catholic priest. how do they finance this point? >> guest: the rabbi sales should give the invocation. a jewish rabbi gives the open indication which is more than anything also assist back but the anti-catholics were also anti-jewish. so it is an enormous signal. i'm in charge. you are no longer in charge. mckinley is the result of this

added to the republican presidential candidate and end they give the invocation. >> host: thank you very much. >> guest: thank you. ..