[applause] .. i've been waiting for this moment until i could interrogate you.

i've known you for long time. when i was at the what house and a minute box and colleagues. we are also readers and authors of this is a real joy for me. i have loved your writing. what you put together in chaining 101, i spent an entire weekend thinking i knew everything i need everything i need to know about dick cheney because i worked under him for eight years. what you help provide is peeling back the curtain of what you call america's most controversial statesman. i wanted to start there. you think dick cheney, as dick cheney, as his role as vice president, even after the administration, do you think is the most controversial statesmen? >> guest: , first of all it is great to be with you. i think a fair case could be made for that. as i write in the book, no one on the right has attracted more vitriol than the left then dick cheney.

i think there is very logical reasons for that and a sense, here's a man who stood at or kneel the pinnacle of power at this country for nearly four decades, rather uniquely. from watergate up to 911 and beyond. you don't stick around it those levels unless you are really good and effective. i think that is why the left has had such an obsession with dick cheney. you see this in barack obama's comments today, he called dick cheney in response to this interview a bit. there's a joke there but it speaks to a, dick cheney's extraordinary influence in our time, b, the, be, the central role that he occupies an intellectual into reeves of barack obama. >> host: dick cheney is in the left head. >> and under their skin for sure. >> host: so tell me about getting the interview. haven't been this a second or at the, at the end dick cheney was a reluctant interviewer.

how did this come about that you got in chance to spend several hours with him, even longer than he had agreed to and he opens up about everything. >> guest: there is a back story here, as you know from our dealings with back when, i covered the bush, cheney white house for fox news in real-time. i traveled the world with dick cheney on the air force one, we went to europe together, the middle east, their situations where hitting ten countries and eight days. we also went to iraq. on the last of those trips i did in 2005 to pakistan, as is the custom fox news was supposed to get in interview with the vice president on the ground somewhere on the trip. cnn got there interview, she was upset at the end because she felt the setting was not right. then, steve schmidt, who is with

dick cheney at the time announced they're cutting the trips short because it was believed the vice president, and his role as president of the senate needed to cast a tie-breaking tie-breaking vote in what was a 5050 set it. schmidt and the others assured me, we get back to washington we promise you'll get this interview with the vice president. we won't forget, you will get it. as soon as the wheels of air force to touch down outside about washington, everybody not named me forgot about it. this did not involve you, regrettably. the next time the vice president set down with fox news was in february 2006. a very dramatic sitdown for the purpose of explaining how and why the vice president had come to shoot his friend in the face

up in a hunting trip in texas. as i watch that i thought it's going to be a long time before you get to sit down with this man if ever. fast forward nine years. i ran into the cheney's at a party in washington. a party washington. after during some good-natured ribbing from the vice president about my recent notoriety of a subject of an fbi investigation, i said i have a bone to pick with you. i said the pakistan interview from 2005. i'm still waiting. he remember. i said sir, if we were to amortize that i think today we would be up to about 28 hours. he said will talk to liz, let's do something. that turned out to be lunch for the two of us, two hours where we sketched out the history of what dick cheney might look like. integrate we agree to do six hours. no subject was off-limits, he, he sought no control of the editorial, no any reward. in the income instead, instead of six hours we had close to ten.

>> host: let's go back to the beginning. one of the things i've admired about dick cheney, a lot of the people think that because i was born in wyoming that i knew the cheney's growing up, i didn't. i did not have a chance to meet him until i worked at the white house. i have always appreciated what i consider his western sensibility. he talks about growing up out west, i wonder if you -- of all the people you have interview, there have been many, do you see a difference in someone who grew up in a setting that he did compared to others who may have grown up on the coast? >> guest: this is an important point that you brought up. to the extent that dick cheney has been depicted as withholding , elusive, maybe even medicine, i think a lot of it has to do with, by and large who does the writing about dick cheney question market tends to be easterners. to the easter near the the way that westerners like dick cheney talk, alien or

short somehow as if they are being withholding. in fact, what has been my experience of nick cheney tells you exactly what he thinks. he does it with a westerners classic words. he hides hides in plain sight in a sense. as a congressman, he amassed one of the most conservative voting records in the house. he knows that today. he says. he says even today it would be thusly regarded. but, he he had a low-key style, he is not a bomb thrower. that has allowed dick cheney to talk to the various sides of the aisles. part of it has to do with that western style of his which is low-key, not attention attention seeking, but direct and clear. >> host: one of my favorite things about being in meetings of the vice president was how he would be very quiet. in fact it can be be intimidating with someone is quiet, you think well you don't know what he is thinking or doing.

i saw an interview with him where he learned when you work for ford, he learned learned that it is better for the principals not to weigh-in in the middle of a discussion when you have a policy time meeting with lots of different staffers are giving their opinion, because as soon as the principal says something that will shut down conversation and people will not offer their opinion. back at me a different viewpoint as to why he kept silence. it was not that he was being secretive, think he was listening. >> guest: he is a good listener. he also understands that the oxygen sometimes does not take place in the interagency debate session but in the oval office afterward. also as we have noted he is an avid hunter. i think he knows when -- >> host: yesterday was talking with someone to prep ration of this is and how much i enjoyed the book. he was saying that back in the day on capitol hill, when the

wyoming delegation of the chaining, wallop and simpson were there, they were the most powerful delegation in the congress at the time. i do not think a small state like wyoming has had something like that ever sense. >> guest: there probably ready well knitted up better than most delegations. for for more than ten years he was the sole congress from wyoming. >> host: could you talk to me about his career is a remarkable before the age of 40, in the late 30s he has his first heart attack. from the age of 19, when when he is kind of a admitted screwup, he is not really knuckle down like his wife lynn cheney was. tell me about how he gets from the age of 19 until 34. that projector is that projector is quite amazing. >> guest: very few american stories like it. your reference to lynn cheney,

her studious this brings up a fun thing. i interviewed her in 2000 for an oral history project i did for the talk magazine, then edited by tina brown. they want me to prepare an oral history of dick cheney flies culminated with his vice presidency. i interviewed lynn cheney, gerald ford, and i asked mrs. cheney and i said, it has been suggested of the tribute you are you are the brains of the operation, set true? she said well i am the more academic. which is sort of a linking reference of the vice president's undistinguished beginnings in terms of his schooling. he actually secured a full scholarship to yale university. >> host: remarkable. >> guest: from a kid from wyoming.

born in nebraska come out raised in wyoming. he had never been further east than chicago. he had a brief stay at midwestern in high school. one of the things that disappointed him about yale was there is no big sky over his head anymore. he just felt ill at ease with the physical surroundings and the people to some extent. he he fell in with a high-spirited group of people as he will come to say. he he tells me and cheney one oh one, as how he and his roommates have had an apartment where all of the doors open up is a common area but they decided to use one is a bar. he drank too much beer and racked up two duis by the time he was 19 years old. the second of which found him in jail in wyoming. he tells me the book, this is the wake-up call. he did not have to completely give up drinking but he knew he had to set his path right. he flunked out of yale, goes back to wyoming, his alignment

for the county and is paying his own way no to the university of wyoming. ninety-six dollars a semester at the time. and he finds guess what, when he pays his own way he's invested in it, i'm a i'm a good student, he got straight a's. through a succession of internships and other visits to the capital, he eventually found himself working for a congressman who later went to work for the nixon administration. that is the beginning of his path, the power, by the time his 34 you mention this guy who is 19 woke up in the jail in wyoming, was the chief of staff to the president of the united states. it really is a remarkable story story. >> host: did he form his political ideology before it yell or after when he comes back westmark.

>> guest: as of his time at yell, he had not really devoted to much thought to politics at all. i think he probably shared some of the ingrained conservative is a moped westerners, i think his father worked for the soil conservation service which is a federal agency. he did not start off with hostility to the state. his interest in politics started to accelerate once he met lynn cheney and high school and dated her throughout college and after college he majored in political science. as a matter fact, he only quads i regret dick cheney other in three days of interviews, he said that he wish instead of political science and college that he had studied history because he is a deep lover of

history and the all the books that he has read, biography, it. >> host: is he trying to catch up with when. >> guest: he will not assuredly. he wish he studied history because in his experience, this is someone who is at or near the center power for 40 years, the government really is not a science, it's art. it is the application of lessons from history from past case studies of contemporary problems. so so the only real regret i heard him express was that he had not been a history. >> host: that struck me too because i worked with charles when he did his collection, things that matter. when he was asked by students, if i want to i want to become a political pundit or columnists one day, what should i study in journalism school. they said don't go to journalism school, you should study history. the vice president even to this day sounds like his reading

history books and seen the parallels. we talk a lot about marshall actually. >> guest: the interesting thing about that is that i sensed a touch of despair and dick cheney , by virtue of the fact that it's getting a bit harder, given the circumstances of the 21st century to find useful lessons from the past to be applied today. because of the unique problems we face, not only the nuclear age but unique 21st century features such as names actors, its symmetric warfare and so on. >> host: that caught me because we're talking a lot about how to deal with lone wolf terrorists who might be radicalized by the internet and using encryption devices in order to communicate. if you're looking to history to guide you there is very little, except for being sure to act.

that i thought was variously thinking. >> guest: the fact is that even when we set aside domestic attacks like we saw in san bernardino, when we become embroiled in overseas conflict like the iraq war, again we are having asymmetric warfare against our forces. i think, and i would but the vice president would agree although i should not speak for him that the united states has yet to demonstrate that we can win an asymmetrical where. >> host: one of the reasons he is controversial is because after 911, the country after intelligence community to do different call things to protect us. i know he doesn't have regrets, does he know how controversial he is? is a bother him. >> guest: yes and no, he knows. the last question i asked him at

the end of the interviews, i finally allowed the word darth vader to escape my lips. i asked him if he believed that character sure of him is going to prevail in his oracle memory of him such that he is widely misunderstood. he said in essence that he feels very grateful and privileged to have taken part in so many historic events and that he does not feel sorry for himself about the way people view him a generally he does not spend a lot of time dwelling on how people view him. >> host: there's a part in the book when he talks about. >> is on page nine in your introduction. the question you ask is is it fair to say that your influence on bush's decision-making waned in the second term? i? i really appreciate his answer because i thought it showed humility. by the time there's a second term a president is more surefooted and that his experience that he brought to

the table may be even more necessary in the first in the second term, that how you took it. >> guest: yes but it raises another question which i posed to him which is well, here now than if we accept your version of things, we have a president who have a president who in the second term as greater confidence inform policy and national security decision-making, why, why should that greater confidence and part of the president lead him to reject your counsel more frequently rather than accept it more frequently. he said look in essence there is no guarantee that he would do what i wanted him to do. the string between him can be most overstated that is -- but for example as he points out cheney 101, here one, here in the he and the president were on the same page with a surgeon iraq was conserved even though cheney and rumsfeld and the

joint chiefs of staff's were were not on the same page. cheney's advice prevailed with president bush. >> host: the white house was a lonely place at the time. he is pretty open about his difference of opinion with secretary condoleezza rice. i do not see it as personal. that is what i took away from one on one. >> guest: in all administration, as you know there'll be conflicts of personality, conflicts of ideology, interagency dispute and it is actually a healthy part of the process. there is no question that dick cheney clashed with condoleezza rice and with cole apollo. the difference as he tells me in the book is that with condoleezza rice he never felt it became personal.

i think they still have a cordial relationship today. with powell, it did become personal and there is no relationship today. i think i sent some regret on his part that it turned out that way. the irony is that a decade earlier when cheney was defense secretary him hollow was chairman of joint chief of staff, the two served well together and helping leave the country to victory in the gulf war. in a decade later that relationship did not survive. >> host: does he express regret about the first gulf war and how that ended. >> guest: no filling up. he regards it is perhaps one of the less clear-cut victories for the united states victory. one of the things he talked about in the book is that there was a culture within the top of the pentagon in the early 1990s were so many the officers cut their teeth during vietnam when civilian leadership did not backup the military the way it should have, so there's great hesitation on the part of the military amongst the senior ranks of officers in the early 90s. one of the things cheney of

george hw bush worked on doing was assuring military officers they would have their men in the field would have the support they needed. >> host: what about on the personal side of things with his family? some politicians go through their entire career and keep themselves, they keep their families at a distance. i think that was true for a speaker like paul ryan a lot of people don't know that his wife is jana, their kids, but lives, will live and we have about and is a mary were very active in not only the campaign but lives in the administration. i have have always admired how close he is to his daughters, did you talk about that in the book. >> guest: when i was writing this book someone said there's only three people dick cheney is really tight within there'll cheney's. again that may be a function of their western roots.

list cheney served in the bush cheney administration of the state department she has been a co-author on two of his book, his memoir in his most recent one. i think he drives comfort from having his family around him. i think it is a source of anguish for him, quite understandably that occasionally difference of opinion about different things between his daughters has seeped out into public view. one of the most personal subjects we talk about is his daughter marries decision to come out to him in an airport. this struck me as fascinating because i know a be sensitive to ask about it, he had been asked about before it had been quite the popular campaign issue. quite improperly.

in his own memoir which he the subtitle is a personal and political memoir. so i felt free to ask about personal thing. i said there only two sentences in that whole book about this moment when your daughter comes out too and she tells you this and you responsibly to the fact of you love her and whatever makes her happy makes you happy. now that seem to be of place of great equanimity. i read between the lines of this is not exactly exactly a surprise to you when mary said that. that somehow and thinking about it before that moment you had major place so you could respond the way you did. parents out there might not be in that place what advice would you have for them to get there. he first said that he did not intend to write a book on advice to parents with gay children.

he said actually was a surprise, it wasn't something that we all knew about and didn't talk about. i found that striking because even in the 80s when discussion of gay and lesbian issues were not as prominent in everyday life as it is today, chances are if your daughter is a lesbian you probably have some inkling of that. the fact that he really did not strikes me that he was at that time, someone who is deeply immersed in his career. elsewhere in the book i propose something else and he says there's a time in my life where i thought that how will you did it something was a direct function of how many hours you put into it or how many cups of coffee you drink will doing it. i've a feeling he was putting a lot of hours and is working to get a of coffee. so he was surprised by this. >> host: also if we could touch a little on his health. this is a person who has an amazing career in politics,

another in the private sector, gets recruited back into politics and he really,*as i know never intended to be the vice president of the united states. he tells jokes about the best way to be the vice president is to run the search committee. >> guest: because he led the search committee for.george w. bush nominee in 2000 a lot of people thought fit to describe some sort of purpose through dick cheney in that matter. the fact is, george w. bush backed them up on this, he twice said no before and exceeding on the for third try. to go back back to your question which was not about -- health, in addition to having a truly singular political career were for decades, this man has exercised

tremendous impact on the way we live our lives as americans today, particularly after 9/11. it's also the fact that dick cheney is a singular creature. doctors can point to other people walking around planet earth today who have had five heart attacks and heart transplants. doctors cannot point to anyone else besides dick cheney who had his first cardiac event in the 1970s and is still around. so every advance that has been made in cardiac medicine over the years, somehow in a weird way dick cheney was there kneading that advance very badly and benefiting from it. anything you can have done to a heart patient dick cheney has had done. >> host: speaking of the heart, not the physical heart, one of one of the things is a press secretary you're frustrated with a political figure or bath that is reluctant to talk about themselves is that i always knew that the cheney's were very generous people. they do not talk about it. one of of the things i knew they did was provide the heart

defibrillators to all the places of worship in washington d.c. no one knew about that. i was felt that he was a lot more generous than anyone gives them credit for being. >> guest: you mention his business career, he was ceo, very well at halliburton. that has given rise to just decades of baseless speculation about a vice president be in a profiteer somehow. it is worth pointing out that a book about dick cheney called angular published in 2009, the kennebunk that takes every sequence of events and draws the darkest conclusions about cheney's role as it proceeds. it is well reported book but it is very contentious. even martin galan came to the conclusion after the man's grant

document that there's no reason ever, no evidence to support that dick cheney ever did anything it's political career to profit. as a matter of fact, he took a substantial loss to leave halliburton and go back. >> host: you talk to him and maybe you can explain his decision, it's been quite different from george w bush post- presidency to be vocal and be a critic of the successor. why does he do that? >> guest: i think he is a fighter by nature, dick cheney. also he is in a setting where the man he served who was at the top of the ticket, the top of the hierarchy of the white house has followed his own father's admirable practice of abstaining from criticism of the oval office. that leaves dick cheney to

venture into the arena time and again to serve as the chief defender of the bush, cheney legacy. it. it is not simply the case that barack obama has in some cases deviated sharply from the policies of the bush, cheney administration, he has continually asserted that the problem he faces as commander in chief are byproducts of bush and cheney's decision. so, that calls out for a defense from from someone in that administration. cheney knows he carries unique stature. so i think he feels comfortable in that role. >> host: and talking with him, what you he think he wants his legacy to be a does he not worry about it? spee2. >> guest: i had the privilege of attending the unveiling of dick cheney's marble bust at the capital. a ceremony that was attended by the press vice president biden,

former president george w. bush, speaker of the house, the senate majority leader, and others, and cheney spoke last after the bust which is a pretty good likeness have been unveiled. at the end of his remarks, cheney said if anyone walking through statuary hall and the capitol grounds should ever pause to linger in front of this busted me for more than five seconds, i would hope they will come away knowing that at least this much, that here was a believer in the united states of america. so that is our surest indication of how he wishes to be viewed. >> host: does he worry about his legacy? >> guest: know. i think 11 of the reasons he has been so effective over the year is because he never had his index finger to the wind. he has never politician who will change his views just because suddenly public opinion has shifted and it is convenient for

him to do so. >> host: loyalty was an important part of any administration, of course in the bush, cheney white house was prized. one thing thing i always think about politicians is that if you see people who have worked for them for decades, you know there's a strong amount of loyalty there and loyalty goes both ways. did you talk to anybody outside, that had worked with him? >> guest: i just signed a bunch of books for someone who bought 32 of them. that is a model for you all to follow. this is a former staffer of cheney's, he is one of four people who were called the old staff. that is to say they work for dick cheney and the house of representatives, in the department of defense, and the office of the vice president. i think there are four of those people left today. he doesn't buy a great loyalty among his staff. in terms of the relationship between him and george w bush,

you talk talk about how much loyalty is prized by the president of the united states, in cheney 101, cheney tells me that quote, this is what he is, central to the's relationship to george w. bush is the fact that cheney had four sworn any attempt to run for presidency and himself. so the president always understood that any advice that cheney was given was not because he had any i on being president in the future. he said most of the reason people beat come and take the job of becoming vice president is because it gives them a leg up on becoming president sometime in the future. but he never had to worry about a political tinge. >> host: how much did watergate affect his thinking? >> guest: more than he understood. i think one of the aspects of our interview where he come away understanding himself a little

better was how profound watergate shapes his thinking and his future career. dick cheney made it his personal project when he was vice president to do everything he could to restore the powers of the presidency, of the executive. he saw it being eroded during vietnam and water great. it was various other encroachments by congress onto the powers of the executive, whether it was his legal posture in the fight over the notes from his energy or powers after 911. dick cheney always approached it from the point of view that the executive has to be strengthened, has to be restored or the crises and challenges that they were facing. >> host: what about the day of

911, i was interested to hear all of the different viewpoints of the different people that were there, living in new york i met a lot of people who are here that day. one of my friends on the bar at the time and stayed open continuously for several days just to make sure that everybody had what they needed. back at the white house the president of the united states was traveling. cheney was there in the situation room, what did he tell you about that? >> guest: he really narrates his day of 9/11 really buy a minute by minute basis. you have to understand that all of us as americans shared a 911 in some way. my parents were bombed out of their apartment building in manhattan. we all felt a sense of grief, shock, anxiety, we felt terrified. but only one american that day

had it thrust on his shoulders to run the federal government in these hours of crisis while president bush was hopscotch in around the country looking for a secure place to land. that was dick cheney. it tells in the book how he is sitting in his office, the vice president of the united states, on a tuesday, his secret service bust into the office drag them out of their down to the presidential emergency operations center which is a bunker below the white house. cheney was done, the entire senior staff was done. he used a very interesting phrase, he out we all felt a sense of shock and all. which is what we normally say about iraq war. weapons were being passed around, they have a ton of

things in their hands like trying to ground all the flights in the air, just get their arms are on this thing. they are operating under terrible conditions. they're getting false reports about pipe bombs going off at the state department, being six planes not for planes involved in the attack and so on. cheney kicked in immediately. if you look at the photographs that were taken in the bunker that day, there are important people in there like condoleezza rice was the national security adviser at the time, karen hughes, senior advisor president, the body president, the body language in the photograph is on the stackable. the lead person in the room, the on the muted authority is dick cheney. what kicked him for him was classified training. when it is contemplated that the united states might pay something like an all-out nuclear exchange with the soviet union, he took classified training session for something called continuity of government. the first precept of which when you want to keep the continuity of the government keep it operating, is to preserve a line

of succession. the president, vice president and speaker of the house. so the very first piece of advice that dick cheney gives george w. bush on 9/11, and he tells me the book, the president book, the president did not like it, he resisted it, but ultimately he listened to it was a stay out of washington. do not come back here till we know it we are dealing with. >> host: some people think that because dick cheney wanted to assume the power of the day what you're explaining this no you you want to make sure we had a president to look to. >> guest: and he kept in's contact is best as he could. one of the most sensitive things you cannot stick cheney about and i went into some detail about this is the shoot down order of 911. this is something i don't even think dick had asked about with exception of the commissioners on 911. he conveyed in order to the secretary of defense in those

early hours, authorizing and instructing the military to shoot down the airline that eventually crashed in pennsylvania but was thought to be heading to the white house and capital. there there's a tape recording of that conversation. a fairly stunned donald rumsfeld was like under whose authority dick? after all the vice president does not stand in the military chain of command. he tells them, from the president. the president of the united states gave me that authority and a phone call. the problem is in the eight sets of the official log that were captive all the principal discussions from that prolific day, none of them record in the appropriate timeline for the chronology any such conversation between george w. bush and dick cheney. in an interview in 2001 cheney shifted his story about a size determine task about it. so i said to him sir, do you understand why? even people who are supporters of yours have a

problem with this because it places you in a very unusual position which is asserting something for which there's no record. he said no. this is the one time he gave me the cheney treatment. he said that, there's been confusion, we've never been able to pin down all the calls in the exact times. this is one of the reasons why he said the president and i were interviewed jointly by a 911 commission. >> host: password than to iraq. what does he say about the accusation that he lied or was complicit an ally about the intelligence. >> guest: one of the harshest assessments of dick cheney's role in the iraq war came from

condoleezza rice and her memoir. we have staggered our conversations these three days such that the last day would be reserved for 911, iraq, and something i called cheney addresses his critics in history. i simply read to him some of the harshest things that were written about him. he disputed what condoleezza rice said about his handling of intelligence and wmd. he then responded in kind and talk at some great length about an instance where he felt that condoleezza rice had mishandled classified information. he also wants people to be reminded of the work of the silverman rob commission which was established in 2004 to investigate how the intelligence community had got it so wrong about wmd stockpile in iraq. that report concluded that there is not a single instance where senior policymakers had

pressured intelligence analyst to come up with a right conclusion on it iraq. that's a very important conclusion of this blue-ribbon panel. bipartisan and respected. i think it is fair to contrast the panel with what we see going on today with the pentagon inspector general actively investigating claims up to 50 intelligence analysts that their intelligence reporting on isis has been routinely sanitized. that is a far more serious problem with the manipulation of intelligence and the national security area than anything we have seen in the bush cheney era. >> host: one of the things both bush and cheney were determined not to do was to blame the intelligence community for anything. i think that was the right thing to do. as you talk about how they

decide to stand in front of that bus for them. >> guest: he did not put it in those terms. he is a westerner. although you are as well. >> host: yes. >> guest: one of the things i did with cheney was on day two, i was very determined that we should spend some time just talking about the intelligence community, the intelligence product, because product, because not only is dick cheney famously associated with the intelligence failure surrounding iraq and wmd as a senior policymaker, but he is probably one of the longest running consumers of american intelligence product ever. his first classified intelligence briefing began for him when he was deputy chief of staff to gerald ford in the 19 seventies, and it continued for the next 35 years. i asked him i asked him wasn't their point along the way where you can observe where the intelligence product became politicized westmark we hear about the latest of intelligence, was

there an error episode where that came into being? he talked about the evolution of the intelligence community and the product that he had the opportunity to review for so long. so it change when the world chain, after the fall of the soviet union the intelligence community found that it was very good at counting missile silos and that's her to thing but not at tracking nonstate actors using disposable cell phones. so when we did talk about the a month before the 911 attacks and the claims by richard clark and others that key warnings were overlooked by bush and cheney, one of of the things he said there was no action intelligence that an attack was going to occur. yes at the time how is the intelligence community configured? how many people do they have on the problem of al qaeda? so we talked a great length at his consumption of intelligence and the reference in which he

holds the men and women, the patriots that work in the field. >> host: and vice versa i think. switching gears. what do you think, or did he think -- what brings dick cheney joy? >> guest: his grandchildren. there were times somewhere in between tapings and he would get in updates from someone whether his wife or assistant same that a gift had been delivered to the granddaughter. he would say yeah, did he she like it? he wanted to know. i would say that he is very and vault with his grandchildren. >> host: i know one of them is involved, one of is involved, one of the girls is involved with her local rodeo scene and he is the driver. yeah he would hitch the horse and the vehicle that carried the horse. >> guest: the vehicle that carried the horse.

he dries with that hitch up to his truck, i think from washington to wyoming. as we talked about earlier he is a voracious reader. there's probably an aspect to dick cheney that likes being in the arena from time to time. i think he is made his peace with his legacy. >> host: were there some favorite behind the scene, personal stories that he told you that you like. >> guest: just think that that happened in the course of the taping. one of my chief aims in writing the book was to look at this man from caricature of darth bader, he's too important for that. here is a man who had a profound impact on the way we live as americans and to caricature him to do a disservice to everyone who needs to understand his

service. there were several hours during the ten hours we spent together where he had this gorgeous yellow lab named nelson, who sat in on the floor and of the recordings. you can occasionally hear his heavy panties. and i one point he rises and has to pause the recording because he has to get a stock to doggie daycare. >> host: i thought that was hilarious that he would talk a stock to doggie daycare no one would believe it. >> guest: even just using the term doggie, just doggie alone. it was a real flesh and blood person. he will have a drink with you, he is quite good if you know how to get him talking. at the the initial lunch we were at steakhouse, and northern

virginia, mindful of his epic cardiac profile said let's be clear at the outset, i'm going to be ordering mistake on the steak on the side of the table, it's good to be cooked in butter. he said he what you want and he's had a salad with salmon on top of it. >> host: did you feel bad about that? >> guest: i did a little bit. one strain mention of me of gerard ford launched him into a 15 minute disposition on the new class of gerald r ford aircraft carriers, the the new suspension systems they have. he delved into the technicalities of it. but i was struck by how engaging he can be. he does have a sense of of humor. again is this clips, western, dry wit. sometimes his eyes will tell you as much as his mouth the. >> host: i was felt like he was looking out for me. people might not understand dining, maybe it is a western thing, but my grandfather, i

didn't grow up knowing the cheney's, my families from the other side of the state in the black hills. my grandfather was who is very important to me in my life was a republican commissioner, growing up in wyoming like everyone is republican for the most part. when you leave them for the first time if you go east of the mississippi your eyes are awakened to a different line of thinking and thoughts. so when i get to the white house, i'm junior bird man, deputy press secretary, fairly intimidated, fairly intimidated but trying to put a brave face on it, i'll never forget that dick cheney and the meeting turned to me and said, i would love to hear more about your ranch, it's in western county right. what about highway 16 which is where you get a great burger in wyoming. from there, just like i had a

really good personal relationship with him. i. i don't think you knows that. >> guest: well we will circulate this. >> host: i think there is a reverence for dick cheney in conservative circles that only maybe now is starting to service and people are being even willing to say yes, i'm a fan of dick cheney and i'm not afraid to announce it. >> guest: that is true also, the political class that he is regularly doing fundraisers, headlining fundraisers for the national republican campaign committee and so on. again the frequency with which barack obama, sometimes unsolicited, evokes dick cheney. there is a time in june when the president went on the daily show to pay his respects to the outgoing host, jon stewart. he was trying to sell the iran deal at the time and he said you know folks i think if only dick cheney had been sitting there we would have been gotten a better deal, that's crazy.

i asked josh earnest, the white house press secretary, why did he bring up dick cheney unsolicited? does he see himself as the anti-dick cheney? and of course he said that's not how the president would characterize himself, but i think obama sees himself as delivered by providence of the oval office to undo the work of dick cheney. it is been dick cheney who is been his chief critic in the obama era. there's a very memorable occasion in may 2009 where the two men gave dueling speeches on national security subjects. that served in a way that president obama cannot be pleased by to assert the kind of parity between the two of them. >> host: i remember that well. you gave an interview and i wonder if you could talk more about it here which is something i'm interested in, why should millennial's care about dick cheney learning about him, outside of the caricature? >> guest: we will assume, and and it may not be a safe

assumption that millennial students are receiving a fair and balanced portrait of people like george bush and dick cheney. not a character teacher. simply answer, the broad answer is that history always matters. you can can away going unless you know where you been. specifically, george w. bush and dick cheney had such a consequential presidency, the effects of it are still being felt, perhaps not as profoundly as the two men that would like. they felt that brock obama has on done a lot of the good work they did. they feel the current state of syria and iraq is attributable not to the original invasion of iraq in 2003, but to the failure of the current president to hold the line at some of theolicy such as the search, the withdrawal of american troops and so on. so if you care about the middle east as it exists today, how the

threats from the middle east are seeping into our country as residents of san bernardino know so well, as reading cheney one oh one you can learn about how the mind of this man works. >> host: what about his reputation overseas especially with world leaders overseas? >> guest: dick cheney is still in contact with world leaders overseas. he still travels to the middle east from time to time. especially in the middle east, monks or arab golf allies like saudi arabia, jordan, uae, egypt, cutter, dick cheney is a still very well-regarded and seen as the kind of leader that those allies which were still in power. >> host: this interview originally ran in play by mixing, which i know most people pick up for the articles of course. it packed a big punch. were you surprised by the reaction?

>> guest: a bit, very pleased by. when i left his house for the last of the three days he gave me very high praise. i set i hope you enjoy this and he said it was time well spent. at that moment i had on my hand 80,000 words of transcript which is what this book is. it is the transcript of our ten hours in oral history covering his entire life with an overview by me. i took a small fraction, about 77 or 8000 words pulled from different parts of the interview and published it as the playboy interview with dick showing me. the the playboy interview is one of the most venerated journalistic formats in years. you had jimmy carter, fidel castro, martin luther king, the beatles, the, the beatles, the founders of google, you can go on and on. we are now even talking about the stars and the comedians. playboy was very pleased to have

this. they even created a special letter letter bound addition of just that month's issue which was completely brown with a golden boss letters that said dick cheney. playboy has a department that tablets how frequently its content is being picked up in other media, they tabulated the playboy interview with dick cheney have picked up 650,000,000 hits around the world. i was in the audience at the washington hilton in april april 2015 when president obama himself commented on it. he made the wisecrack that we talked about earlier which was, to the where dick cheney thinks i'm the worst president of the left my lifetime -- >> host: probably intended to hurt her president bush.

>> guest: in some respects. but it goes to show that they thought dick cheney was the power behind it. nobody knows knows the falsity of that with greater, more painful first and express and dick cheney,. >> host: i will ask you to wrap up with something that dick cheney had not talked about before really at any length in public. that was his faith and his religion. if you could tell us about that. >> guest: the one subject that dick cheney told me in advance that he does not like to's pursuing any depth and introduces religion. yet even there, we covered the subject and greater death than he had anywhere else. he talked to me about his sunday school experiences, and a methodist church in wyoming where he grew up. his denominational migrations over the years. his inter-most beliefs about his faith and to sit and dick cheney study, surrounded by all of those books, as the man said

before having survived five heart attacks and a heart transplant to hear him say to me i'm a christian. i believe in life hereafter, is very powerful. whether you love dick cheney or hayden, or a millennial and just need to learn about them, read cheney 101, you one, you will learn how this man's mind and heart really worked. >> host: i love the book. congratulations on this great interview and being able to put it together, just an import piece of history. i'm glad glad you had a chance to do it. >> guest: i'm glad to have done it. thank you. >> house afterwards, book tb signature program in which authors of the latest nonfiction books are interview. watch past afterward programs online apple tv.org. >> he was critical of the u.s.

invasion of afghanistan after 911 but he was very much within mainstream of islam, mainstream of politics. that changed and it is sort of a long story but one of the things, a core reason why i wrote this book is to understand that. i will just say that what struck me is that there is a personal element, very personal element in this case emma there is an ideological element and an external element. so the personal element in this case was that he was on this, he was on a roll. he was the right guy and i think he was quite happy and would have been quite happy to stay in this country to become a public figure even better known than he was at the time. i can easily

imagine that he would have been very successful at that, perhaps we would have all been tired of seeing him appear on meet the press on sunday. it would have been a very useful role because there was never really been in the 14 years, never really a truly national voice represented muslims in this country. i think he could have played a very useful role. when the personal front what happened was he discovered that the fbi, which had been following him around had discovered that he regularly visited prostitutes and hotels around the d.c. area. they had a file on this. when he learned this, the manager of an escort service called him to say the fbi just call paid me a visit and they know about this. he panicked. he was essentially a conservative preacher to a conservative congregation, he is no different than a southern baptist preacher with a conservative take on things and some off the record hobbies. he he panics, he thought this was the end of his career and a few

days after he learned of this he flew off to the u.k. and returned only for one short visit. that was the personal side, the ideological side, i think he began to -- he was always aware of the jihadist school it per se. he had rejected it, it, he became gradually more interested in it and that was really in part because things were happening in the outside world. >> ..

>> when you have an event on of the most miserable days of the year coming to get nervous. but it's great to see so many people here on what is a truly awful evening. we didn't worry too much about it. can you hear me better? okay we didn't worry much about it because we have a great drop. i'm a professor of sociology