the affects of chinese recently discontinued one child policy. fox news correspondent james rosen looked up former vice president dick cheney time in the bush and ministration. karl rove discussed the important and what a mckinley 1896 presidential campaign. in the coming weeks on afterwards, geoffrey cowan will explore theater roosevelt on successful campaign for the 1912 republican party nomination. christian university professor at eagle claude will argue american continues to suffer from racial inequalities. also coming up, for-- former nsa director michael hayden will discuss the decisions he made as director of both agencies following the events of september 11. this weekend, former senator tom daschle and trent lott over their solutions to resolve the current state of partisanship in washington seem at doing things to socialize, bringing spouses together and opportunities to know one another and more informal basis is the way they used to do things in a major

difference. we don't have any of those things anymore. none of the happens today and i think that is one of the problems. >> several times with a state crisis of how he would act in the senate we would have a joint conference meeting of republicans and democrats in the old senate chamber and sometimes it was to have a cia briefing, sometimes to see if we could find a way of how to proceed with the impeachment trial. every time we had those joint meetings, marvelous things happen to. we heard each other out and we moved forward to. >> afterwards airs on book tv every saturday at 10:00 p.m. and sunday at 9:00 p.m. eastern. you can watch all previous afterwards programs on our website, book tv.org. >> book tv is on location at the

university of wisconsin in madison and we are talking with professors who are also authors. we are pleased to be joining out by a emeritus professor, jerry apps, his book is called: "limping through life: a farm boy's polio memoir". what is polio? >> guest: it's not something we know a whole lot about these days because in 1955 we had a vaccine and that pretty much eliminated it in this country. it still in the world. infantile paralysis as it was one's nose and it's a paralytic disease for some of the people who haven't and it's also affects the respiratory system, so there are two major kinds. i happen to have had paralytic. >> host: how do you get it? >> guest: will, that was a good question because i cut it 1947. 1918, we had a tremendous flu epidemic in the world, killed thousands of people and people that that polio was transmitted

through the area. it's not. it's a virus transmitted through badwater and poor sanitation. people did not know it at the time and they were just frightened to death. they closed the swimming pools, county fairs, parks, all of this after world war ii when it was on a rampage in this country. >> host: for polio, even? >> guest: polio. >> host: what was the connection with the flu epidemic in 1918? >> guest: only the people in 1918 when they experienced the flu, they knew it was airborne and polio was not airborne and thus people polio would be airborne as well, but it's not. >> host: how much when epidemic was in the states and how and when did it begin? >> guest: no one seems to know exactly when it began most of us remember fdr, franklin delano roosevelt had polio and it was on the east coast very early in

the 30s-- 20s and 30s, 1920s and 30s. it went on a rampage as i mentioned earlier after world war ii, 1945. from 45 to 55, those 10 years we had it tremendous epidemic across this country. here in wisconsin it just reward of the fox river valley up to green bay. thousands of cases, many deaths. it was a terrible disease. >> host: jerry apps, generally 1947, or you, what happened that day? >> guest: in 1947, i was in eighth grade in a one-room country school living on a little farm, central wisconsin where we had no electricity, no indoor plumbing, heated our home with a wood stove. coming home from the country school that day,-- >> host: perfectly healthy? >> guest: not really, i had been healthy before that, but on my way home i had-- i was tremendously tired, more tired

than i could remember and we had been sliding downhill that day on a littlefield west of the school. the country school was on 1 acre of land. was a hamlin was a farmer that lived next door and she gave us permission to slide down the field, so we did that. i was dragging my sled home and my two brothers were dragging behind me. i got home and told my mother i can't believe how tired i am and she said jerry-- gerald, she would've called me then and she said you don't have to do the chores. i will get your brothers to do your chores, so the expectation was as a farm kid i should be on the farm helping my dad with the chores. by suppertime, it was getting worse. i was developing a tremendous headache, sore throat and we did not put to the doctor. farm people did not go to the doctor. you had to be near death to go to the doctor. my mother said you are probably coming down with a cold, so she treated me for a cold and i went

up to my cold bedroom to read the stove pipe and up through the floor and was supposed to warm us upstairs room. the idea was-- she gave me what is called a whiskey sling, which sounds interesting, it's a glass of water with a jiggled with screen a bit of honey and you drink that and i can't stand the smell of whiskey to this day. it was terrible. we drink that. she rubbed my chest with skunk grease, rendered skunk grease because we cannot afford stuff like vapor rub. that was supposed to draw out whatever problem you had and the whiskey sling was to make you perspire and sweating was the cure to everything in those days. if you didn't get pneumonia that you were cured. one of the other usually happen. in my case here happened because i came downstairs next morning

and my right leg wasn't working. i said, mom, this right leg doesn't work and she said how cannot be. it was bent like this, frozen, paralyzed. she said i think we probably ought to go to the doctor and she loaded me up in our old 1936 plymouth, which we had had all through the war, worn-out old car. took me down to the wild rose hospital, which was built in 1941 by a doctor in chicago. cooperative hospital. doctor head was the doctor in charge of all this and he took one look at me and he said, to my folks he said i think jerry has polio. my dad took one look at this doctor, looked up my knee and he stood there holding his, farmer, longtime farmer, six grade education and the look on his face was the look of someone who

had just lost their best cow. if you are a found person you would appreciate that more than folks who aren't familiar with cattle and my mother said what should we do for him. he said because the hospital was full. iron lungs lined the halls. iron longs helping them brief. he said take him home. keep him warm. give him lots of liquids. i think he thought i had it because the neighbor kid and i did before that and he was losing about one candidate. one kid a day. terrible time to be an md and have anything to do with the medical profession. so, i am home now, miserable kid. i monocot by the stove in the dining room. they moved me downstairs and there i stayed for a month, five weeks or so. trying to get over this thing and the headache finally did

disappear. the sore throat love, but the paralysis did not leave. i couldn't walk. couldn't stand up. lost weight. i was on rin miserable in the previous year, quick story. farm kids were all active and there was a little lake on the fourth of july we took off from farm work and my dad said, let's go to silver lake and we would go to silverlake on the afternoon of the fourth of july. we would have a picnic and my mother would spread food under the pine trees and we would go swimming. i noticed off to the side there were a bunch of kids lining up, city kids he read they were short pants. farm kids never wore short pants. all of the city kids were lined up and i went over there and joined them and said what-- and he said come on and we are going to have a foot race and i joined that foot raised-- race ibd city kids. aires right past them.

so, now they awarded me as cousy as it sounds, but first place for winning that foot race was a can of asparagus. asparagus canned must have been a big deal in 1946. i came back to the table where my dad and mother and two brothers were nice said look at this. i just won a foot race over there and i got this can of asparagus. my mother said you were in that foot race, do you know those kids are catholic. it was the knights of columbus footrace for kids and we were lutheran, of course, and she said that's the knights of columbus. of kids are catholic. well, i didn't know the knights of qantas from the queen of england and i was clutching this can of asparagus.

you had to take that can of asparagus and give that back to those people. my dad said he won the race, he keeps the asparagus. that is the kind of contrast i was facing at the time. i was remembering as i was on this caught by the old wood stove in the dining room trying to keep form. i could remember the days when i could run and walk and do all of the things that farm kids could and i could do that anymore. there were no physical therapist and those days, certainly not wild rose, wisconsin my dad said to me, we can't-- this is april now in the snow is melting and i was able to be up a bit. he said you got-- we got to do something. we-- the doctor said you would probably never walk again and in those days unfortunately, if you had some kind of physical disability, you are immediately declared mentally incompetent,

so you did not anyone even what know that. it was a terrible thing, but it was fairly common. so, what we just-- i had just gotten a new tractor and we farm forces all the way through the depression enter world war ii. we had this brand-new farm, all age international tractor. we had gotten it just before, two years before, 1945 and my dad said it's spring work and you can drive that tractor, can't you. my arms were pretty well, but this late does not work and to drive that tractor you had to work to break pedals in order to turn. if you want to go to the left to push the left pedal and if you want to go to the right between the right. i could not work to brake pedals at all and he puts me on this tractor.

we had a sandy field and if you couldn't work the brake pedals it would not turn. i'm going across the field pulling the disk and it's a beautiful day in the birds are singing in the sun is on my back end of the first time i had been outdoors and i'm going along the tractor and pulling this disc and i could see at the head this fence, this new fence that we just built the previous year with brand-new fence post, expensive, poor lines, barbed wire fence across and i could see that fence coming closer and closer and this leg won't even get near the brake pedal. unscrewing on the steering will and the next thing i knew there was water fence line and my dad is telling me we still had horses and he's says to me i thought he was going move load me up and take me home and that was the end of it. first thing he said was are you okay. i said i'm okay, but the fence

is it that he said i can see that. he said, let me turn the tractor around. you get back on their. you figure out when you get pours the fence, you will either shut the damn thing off, slow down or start to-- he didn't say about the knee, but that was pretty obvious. was so angry with him because every night now, for about two weeks i would buy that tractor. he would rub this knee for course. he would rub this knee with horse limited and pull on it until the end of april i could not stand up and begin to walk a little. if you look at the cover of this book and you see this, which was my 4h and that summer i am trying to prepare for the county fair. trying to teach this calf how to lead. that became my second physical

therapists. because, as i was teaching this to lead, it was teaching me how to walk. by the end of summer i could walk well enough to do the kind of work i needed to do. i never could run. but, i could walk and i always lived. there's a lot more to the story, obviously, but that is the beginning. >> host: jerry apps, now in your early '80s. >> guest: eighty-one. >> host: you are still walking. >> guest: im. >> host: is that a rarity for people who had polio? >> guest: it was and i give so much credit to a whole bunch of folks starting with my father with whom i was so angry at the time. then, just the fact that i was working with this animal. of both of us-- i am german. we are both terribly bullheaded. he is able and has a right to be bullheaded and my dad would

claim we will work this way through. there were lots of people helping me that i'd to realize at the time. my schoolteacher came out to the farm and brought me lessons every day and then the following day she would sit down with me and we would go for the lesson because i had to pass a county examination in order to be admitted to wildrose high school. that was the way it worked no space and i was scared to death i was not going to make it, not pass the exam. but, i did and thanks to my teacher who came out every day to help me. when i got to high school, a little bit of that story. all of the freshman boys were expected to go out for baseball. baseball was a big deal. there were 100 kids in the whole high school. i graduating class had 15. we are expected to go out for

baseball and we are standing at the plate and cliff simpson is a junior, never forgotten cliff symington and hit a fastball. he had a fastball that you cannot believe he and his kind of fame was when the freshman stood up there, he could send that ball within 6 inches of your nose. the idea being the kid would jump back. i did not have enough strength to stay back and it hit me right alongside the head. knocked me cold. there were no emts or anything like that. i come to in the coach, paul wright, says to me are you okay and i said i am not. i have a terrible headache and then he said words that were unbelievably true, but harsh. jerry, i don't think you are going to make the baseball team. it was pretty obvious, i would say because there i was knocked

out and could not even get away from the fastball, but then he said something else, which was terribly profound. he said, you should take typewriting. i said typewriting, typewriting is for girls. on the 47. in 1947 it was true. they took typewriting to get into business jobs, so here i am in this class with 15 girls. as it turned out, what freshman has the opportunity to sit with 15 girls. we had manual typewriters. most people don't even remember what they were. these girls had beautiful long fingers and i said how can i compete with my stubby fingers. after the first couple of weeks they began typing tests. i was smoking the girls because

there pinkies did not have a strength and so they couldn't get the a to work. of course, no one knew what to do with the; anyway. in the eyes was that the typewriting class was also the newspaper staff. the newspaper staff with a wonderfully evocative rosebud, which was the name of our newspaper. the basketball team was called the route rose rosie. would not put interpretation-- now i'm a reporter for the newspaper because we could tie. i could type. the assistant editor and then i am the editor of the newspaper writing editorials. i did not know what plagiarism

meant in those days, so i borrowed from readers digest, from the wisconsin agricultural, from the milwaukee journal, anything i could get my hands on i would pull out and people would say that newspaper has really gotten good. that's how i got into writing. so, i have always had a second career as a writer. paul wright did something else for me. he said we need someone to announce the basket ballgames. at age 14, i had a microphone. i'm announcing the basketball games. it was hilarious because one of my colleagues, pollen walters was a pretty good basketball player and i'm sitting there. and it's now owl and walters coming down the floor. our walters, two more points for alan walters and the kid sitting next to me said we know that's

alan walters, but i was having fun. i was in public speaking and all that kind of stuff. >> host: jerry apps, were you the only person in your peer group who had polio and was there a ostracization? >> guest: was there a what? >> host: did you feel ostracized >> guest: no one knew it. this kid is limping, maybe he got hurt in some farm accident. i would not tell anyone ever. when my wife and i were married, she did not know i had polio. i spent 10 years in the army reserves and no doctor ever asked me if i had polio. i was smart enough to join the transportation corps because we usually got a ride, but i was a captain in the army reserve. people find that unbelievable because i was always limping and people don't buy a guy who has been an accident. i never told anyone about my

polio and to my editor to me one day when she heard that about that she said you should write a book about this. so, i did. tough book to write anger? >> guest: no, sorrow. missed opportunities. a sense of worthlessness. i have lived a life of worthlessness because once you cannot do it everyone else can do, meaning what 12 and 13 -year-olds could do, play basketball, baseball, run track, do all of those things, you feel worthless. the fact that i was writing did not cut it. that was sort of a sissy job, not real. so, he spent a life feeling worthless and people say to me, what's it like to have had polio and i have now spoken to a lot of polio survivor groups who will agree with me, once you have polio you always have polio. that sense of worthlessness,

that psychological impact of the disease is far-- for me at least-- are more devastating than the fact that i am limping today and i am experiencing a post polio syndrome. that psychological worthlessness just prevailed and how does one react to it cracks there are two ways as i met with polio survivors. you either become a drug addict or an alcoholic or you were on overachiever because you wanted to constantly show people i am not worthless. i'm not worthless. i am the only kid in my extended family to go to college, unheard-of. my uncle one time, my dad's brother said to my dad, herman, where did you go wrong when he heard i was going to college and my dad said what are you talking about. he said the only reason anyone goes to college is to get out of work.

now i have a masters degree. my uncle said i did not know that jerry could get out of any more work. and i got a phd degree he was completely flustered. he had no idea what that meant. >> host: did your family avoid you when you first have polio? >> guest: on purpose. they kept my brothers especially away from a. that was a good thing because at that time we did not know how it was transmitted. i have no idea how i got it, not the first clue. other than it was everywhere and it was bad sanitation. no one in our community had indoor plumbing, so it was pretty iffy. >> host: you are the only one in the wild rose area speech you know, there were many. >> host: in your family. >> guest: in the family, yes. there were a lot of kids in the area. as i mentioned, the neighbor kid died a. >> host: what is an iron long? >> guest: on iron along that was a gruesome piece of equipment

that was probably eight, 10 feet long about this big around and you were put into that thing to assist you in breathing. for those who had polio. that's what was called in iron lung, to help you breathe and most of the kids and most people that had polio in those days did not make it. i was fortunate. as i have met a lot of polio survivors. there are those in my age that are in terrible chait i'm a wheelchairs and walkers. it affects all kinds of things. it can later affect you mentally. it hasn't bothered me so far. >> host: 8055-- 1955, what happened? >> guest: they had been researching vaccines for polio for some while. jonas was one who came up with

the vaccination that was so effective that where there had been thousands of cases all of a sudden there were none. i mean, it's unbelievably effective. one of my crusades, if this is the right word, is to make sure and i hear this all the time, especially from some young mothers who don't want to vaccinate their children. my crusade is get your children vaccinated especially for polio and if you have problems understanding i would like to talk to you. i would like to share with you what it's like to live a life of having had polio. no kid should have to do that. especially now. there is no reason in the world to have a kid go through life feeling worthless because of some deformity of polio.

>> host: jerry apps, are you still suffering from post polio syndrome? >> guest: yes, i am. i am walking for cain. for years i did not. the last 10 years it has come back to visit me. so far, it is still here. people say why don't you get a knee replacement. it affects all the ligaments and muscles around it. >> host: are you suffering mentally today? >> guest: no. welcome i don't think so, but you might speak with my wife and some of my friends. [laughter] >> host: when did you let it go? when did you get over the fact that you had polio as a kid? >> guest: i have never gotten over it. as a mentioned earlier, once you polio, you always have polio. i have never gotten over it. >> host: what about the sorrow park or what you call in your book the sorrow that you had?

>> guest: i have written 40 books and i spent 38 years at the university. people remind me, you have done some things. may be. one all kinds of awards. done three hour-long documentaries for public television. so, i have done a few things, which helped to get past feeling of worthlessness, but not really. but, not really. it just hangs there and people say why are you still writing your 811 years old. because as you well know it takes 20, 30 hours to do on hour-long documentary. my smart answer is i am trying to figure out how to do it and if i ever get it figured out i will probably quick. but, the real answer is there is this worthlessness, a compulsion that i have to keep doing this.

>> host: you talked about the tractor. are you able to drive today? >> guest: sure, no problem at all. i still run a farm. i was on my tractor the other day. it has power steering. >> host: what was your role here at the university of wisconsin? >> guest: i was a professional of agricultural education and prior to that i was a county extension agent. i moved to madison, in 1962, to be a publications editor going back to my newspaper work and all that stuff, so i have always run this double career where i have been freelance writing. i wrote freelance columns for newspapers were 10 years and i'm still writing columns for newspapers. >> host: how many polio survivors are there in the us? >> guest: i have no idea. thousands and it's tricky because my doctor, young fellow,

just out of med school-- anyway, i said i had polio and what kind of research is going on to help guys like me and he was pretty honest. ..