>> is the water now save? >> we cannot guarantee at this point time that the water safe to drink. if you can and i elaborate just little bit. >> the gentlewoman's time is expired but please answer. >> we have match the parcels in flint that we know of, there's there's 56000 parcels, we have put them on a gis database if you will to doctor edwards point. there is uncertainty uncertainty as to where there is lead service lines, out of

30,000 knowns there's reportedly to be 5200 of those. we are overlaying that information and the information i was going door to door talking to individuals to those who would be willing to be part of a sample. putting three-person teams in those homes with a plumber, someone who can actually address how do you take a sample so you do not pre-flush, it's, it's a widemouth bottle see pick it up on a routine basis so we can pick it up and tested. we are working with the epa task force to see what type of interval make sense. >> will now recognize the gentleman from florida. >> thank you mr. chairman. it's good to follow the young lady from the district because i was here in 95 when we took over the district, put in the control board, at that time if you think flint is bad, the district had

hundreds of bodies of indigenous that were stacked like court, they couldn't bury, the kids were getting from a vendor only chicken and rice that were in the district's care. there 60000 people employed by the district, we have a crack smoking mayor, we had about half a billion dollar deficit, you don't have a federal government in flint to take that up. i remember when you had to boil the water. i remember what the lady said, the water was not safe to drink in this building, they tape the water fountains up. they tell people to boil the water. in government we have a fundamental responsibility and that is, this glass of water, that's our responsibility to

make sure that waters pure and trackable. just remember the information, we call the superintendent's office to office to see if this is safe, they would not release the test in the district, the committee just asked the superintendent to give us the information from the last 15 or 20 years. i think we have a right to know if it's safe here in the nation's capital. so you not being picked on alone. but when you look at this and the district was taken over by a control board, there wasn't even a local, representative said there is no local decision, there was a a seven-one vote to let this happen. there's really nothing wrong with that river from the flint river was there mr. mr. edwards if he was properly treated.

>> and the water testimony came out of the plant was fine, what happened was and the gentleman from michigan said for lack of 80 - $100 per day that's what you said which is about 30,000 dollars per year, and it was $50 million being cut for that much money, we we poison the kids in flint, didn't we? that's what we did. when she was properly termed a citizen, she is a citizen hero. she stepped up, thank god that you stepped up and you persisted, look at the timeframe though. they had the opportunity to ask her put the phosphate in to control the degradation of the pipes, that wasn't done, she alerted them and that was back in -- what did you do that? what

month? >> that was in march of 2015. >> 2015 and it went on and on. >> you know why the phosphates were not added? because they did not have the equipment at the treatment plant at the equipment at the treatment plant at the phosphate. >> again, it's a simple solution that should have been in place, the state or the federal government and you got blown off by the locals, right. >> yes, sir. >> you got blown up by the state right. >> yes, sir. >> and the federal government failed due to. >> yes or. >> this is unacceptable. we haven't responsibility for these kids. everyone is talking about blame and accountability we should hold these people accountable. now we have the kids who drink this this water and were bathed in this water. every kid in that community should be tested. then if there is residual results do you think that

someone should be responsible, should be the state cap government, the state government, the local government should be responsible to make sure those kids now and in the future. first we need to test them is that underway? >> yes, sir. there's testing available. >> and then we should set aside a fund because that we should make certain that these kids are taken care of. then, this is going on not just in flint, it's gone on in dc, is, is gone in durham, we heard testimony today and we need to stop and we need to make certain the system works. right mr. edwards? >> that is correct. >> right. >> yes, sir. >> and you are new on the black. >> yes, sir. >> thank you we appreciate what you did. thank you. >> the audiences reminded to hold their applause please. >> will now recognize the

gentleman from his or. >> thank you mr. chairman. we ought to be clear about flint. arguably one of the worst municipal environmental tragedies in the modern era in the united states. it was man-made. it is the consequence actually of implementing a political philosophy, a smaller government of rabid anti- regulation of attacked, after after attack, after attack on the epa because our financiers don't like it. let's be very clear about how flint happen. it it did not happen by accident.

it was not a seven - one vote to switch the source of water. that was not a boat to switch water. they. they did not vote on going to the river. those who want to argue with us there's nothing wrong with the water just at some phosphate to it, will send a my colic to that and watch them drink it. this is a consequence of putting ideology ahead of human beings and their needs, and their welfare. the difference in political philosophy matters, political choices have consequences and flint is the most rheumatic in our generation. i do not choose, i do lay this at the doorstep of those whose show that philosophy. i want to see the governor at this table. if you are so passionate about

holding people accountable and god knows we have done that then let's have the governor schneider at this table explaining himself. in october of last year the governor appointed a task force the flint water advisory task force misses their report is that correct? >> they have issued some interim letters to the governor. >> is the governor's appointed task forces a crack a crack. >> yes, sir. >> on december 29 that interim letter you refer says and i quote, we believe the primary responsibility for what happened in flint rest with your department, the deq, although many of the state local levels contributed to creating and prolonging the problem the michigan department of environment equality has a responsibility to ensure safe

drinking water. it failed and and that responsibility must be held accountable. are you aware of that finding, that return finding? >> i read the letter and met with the committed. >> do take issue with it? >> i do not. >> do you agree. >> in retrospect, i agree. >> okay, they then then said they actually characterize your agency's response quote in a dismal public response to the crisis on quote, do you agree with that characterization. >> in retrospect, i think the auditor general agrees with that also that we were minimalistic in legalistic in our behavior. >> mr. edwards, is the primary responsibility here epa's are deq's? how does it work. >> without question the primary responsibility those to protect michigan citizens from lead and water, that's their job and that my six aggressively with the

deq. >> just for the record, we are hearing a little machine machine is about that. let's blame the pa, the epa has some here in terms of water quality isn't that how it works, the epa relies on state deq's to carry out the oversight of water quality is that not the case. >> that is correct. >> in this case where the warnings like that all for michigan deq about switching the source of water, before they did it? >> well if they were not before they did it come as soon as they made their switch there is warning sign after one inside. >> and what did they do with those when inside. >> they denied, denied, and denied that there is a problem. >> and that put ms. walters and the people at risk is that true? >> i give you the last word on how this happen.

>> yes it did put us at risk. it was not my job to figure out there is no corrosion control the water. they should have known that from the start. >> you had a reasonable expectation to did you not that you could rely on the government to protect you and your family. >> yes, i did. >> thank you you'll back. >> i recognize the the gentleman from arizona for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman. mr. administrator, thank you for appearing today. when did the epa first hear of the high lead levels influence water? >> i think think there is indication in spring of 2015 with the testing of ms. walters house and some neighboring houses. very high lead levels are being found. >> i understand the concept of a deal a lot with water that epa, the environmental quality, but it is set up as a checks and

balances would you agree? >> epa has an oversight responsibility. >> would you agree mr. edwards? >> yes, i do. >> so something failed. there is another line that should come about. i'm going to go along the line of the pa. when did epa administrator mccarthy's first visit with flint about this crisis? >> i believe yesterday with mr. it was yesterday. >> it wasn't until yesterday that you visited for the first time. so the day before this hearing. said mr. mccarthy knew about this for eight months but didn't visit flint until the day before congressional hearing. >> i do not believe he knew about the crisis rate month. >> really? something as dynamic as this and you didn't relay that up the chain? >> i came into this job in november 2015 so i don't have personal knowledge. >> what is today? >> today is february 2016. i'm a healthcare provider, i'm a tennis due triage things like this. this this is something

that is a dynamic tragedy. it's an ongoing problem. wouldn't you agree? >> i agree. >> so what you put the highest priority on that application to figure out what went wrong and accept some of the blame and try to go forward, which do not. >> this absolutely is our highest priority. >> us or doesn't show because of chino in november it's february. >> the pa has been in the situation. >> at the same old thing. you have to remember that this is the same epa that knew about what was going to happen when the mind blew out colorado and now has a lot of people all the way down from colorado, utah, california and arizona all at risk because of their actions. so yes, everybody desires or should take some of the blame. some of that blame goes to the epa. it goes to the head honcho. just like for me in my office. someone comes into my office and something goes wrong, i'm accountable for that. i found it despicable that the administrator shows up in flint

yesterday instead of going there immediately. particularly when see the outrage from the other side and from the people in this audience in regard to children. the lead poisoning that occurs, that is just despicable. administrator, and epa employee they tried to discuss the seriousness of this memo in an email of july 2015 by saying it was a traffic. stay in the memo should not of been released and the memo never had primal approval from the epa hierarchy. they have since resigned. >> yes. >> why. >> my understanding is that she was find in order to make sure the region and epa could be fully focused on a response. >> was she fire? >> i can answer that question. she testified in in order to make sure we could focus our attention. >> make sure the administrator asked that question because we are going to asked that when the administrators here.

why wasn't she fire? >> the initial memo was sent in june 24, there's a final memo and was that ever really. >> i believe it was released in october. >> november. was it a comprehensive memo that describes the what happen. >> this particular memo what it did was focus on the testing of lead and mrs. walters house in the neighboring homes. >> this memo i understand is not even nearly as comprehensive aspect and would be considered a shell. >> the memo was focus on the specific testing that was done at mrs. walters house and the neighboring homes and to look at that situation. it is not the entirety of epa's review of the situation. >> director, i appreciate your testimony today. you are one you are one person today that has accepted some responsibility.

your governor has been the same to the crisis even though there's fault all the way across. that is commendable. commendable. do believe this incident could have occurred had the flint city council not voted to change their water source? >> i think this incident occurred because of the lack of the phosphate being added. >> by you and if you never made the chains you would never had this catastrophic event right? >> that the true statement. >> what would've happened if the city follow the directions of the consultant question asked. >> there was a couple different consultants and to minimize the problem. >> what would've happened if this city would've all the corrosive treatment? >> as doctor edwards stated, we would not have had this problem. >> so. >> so a series of checks and balances. everybody pointing the finger and nobody wanting to take the blame except for yourself and the governor. i find it very humbling that the

government is not being part of the solution here. without a a you'll back. >> thank you. i now recognize ranking member mr. cummings. >> mr. chairman i was going to -- well i'm getting very concerned about your testimony. i want you to remind you that you are sworn to tell the truth, the whole whole truth and nothing but the truth. so let's go over what you just said. and i have to get it right in here because i'm kind of concern. i do not want the public to not see this for the accurate truth. governor schneider recently named you as the new head of the michigan department of environmental quality last month. i'm hoping he is watching by the way.

give this 2016 state of address in his speech governor schneider seemed to take take responsibility for the flint crisis. stating that nyquil, the buck stops here, with me. and that i take full responsibility to fix the problem so that it will never happen again. however, in the same breath governor schneider also try to blame the city of flint, it sounds like you are doing right now and he says this and i quote. this crisis that began in the spring of 2013 when the flint city council voted seven-one to buy water from the water authority. do you agree with governor schneider statement? >> the question i responded to serve was if they would have never change their water source with this issue have happened?

i believe that is a true statement because they were on detroit water and sewer, department water which was phosphate it and they had a 30 year history. so i apologize if i miss represented. >> i'm not finished. we reviewed the resolution passed by the city council and the minutes from the meeting and at no point during the meeting to the city council vote to allow the flint river to be used for drinking water. is that correct? >> i have not review those personally but that is my understanding. >> mr. chairman i would like to introduce you to the record, a letter we just received yesterday from sheldon who survived city council onto thousand five-2014, he was actually there. in his letter he said to the city council did not. >> where's the letter?

okay in his letter he explains that the city council did not make the decision to use the flint river because quote the flint city council had no power to enact any laws for the community, everything went through the emergency manager and of quote. who was appointed by the governor, he also says and i quote, will -- will enter the the record without objection -- this is what he said, it was the emergency manager who made the decision to use the flint river as a primary source of drinking water for the city of flint. are you of where of his actions? >> no sir i was not in the seat

at the time. >> and mr. craig, so mr. neely also wrote that quote governor schneider's account of the events leading to this crisis are completely wrong. why would governor schneider tried to blame the city council for this decision when it was his own appointee who made it and you have a city council that has no authority? there's something wrong with that. that's why i interjected here because i want the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. now let me ask you, i'm not finished, do you have any reason to believe that mr. neely is not telling the truth? >> i have no reason to believe. >> now mr. neely's letters supported by statements of flint, former mayor on january january 22, 2016 he said after city council and i supported new water supply the emergency manager when behind closed doors

with the department of environment equality and decided to use the flint river as an interim source made to busted changes and put that in place, where you are aware of that statement? >> i am not. >> based on the evidence it seems like governor schneider was trying to blame the city of flint for actions of his own appointee. he did this in the state address to the entire population of flint. let me ask you something else. are the people paying right now in flint for water they cannot wash in, they cannot use, they cannot drink, they pay and water bills? is it part of the recovery? you said you want to make it whole is that part of it, why would they be paying for water that they cannot even use that is poisoning them? that is not american. this is not a third world country.

are they paying those bills? are you going to relieve them of that? >> everyone deserves safe drinking water and that is the expectation and yesterday the governor introduced a supplemental for $30 million to help with that issue. the number one issue as we have spoken with the mayor is to make sure the utility remains solvent and the billing is more of a city issue but we understand and respect that. everyone deserves everyone deserves water that a say. >> these are people who are struggling. they're struggling. they have come over here all the way here from flint, i don't how they got here. i guess on a bus. but the fact that they are here. you know what, they're also

americans just like you and just like your children. and i want to be real clear and the chairman will hear me out on this, i don't care whether it is epa, whether it is local, whether it is state, i want i want everybody who is responsible for this yes go to be held accountable. i am not protecting anybody. that is not our job. we are the last line of defense and if we don't do it, nobody's going to do it. >> i yelled back. >> thank you chairman i now recognize gentleman from north carolina. >> thank you mr. chairman. thank you this walters for your testimony, truly it has made a profound difference. in such a way, i am from north carolina, a long way away from

flint michigan and in a way we are connected. i got a text this morning from people have been affected by region for not region five but with water quality issues for years and the epa failure to address them. the troubling thing for me is that what i hear from our water quality epa official is that they are going to just let the office of inspector general do their work. the problem with that is, and i have high regard for that particular inspector general, fact i can tell you ms. walters that they will continue to look at it in a very detailed way. it will not be enough. there is more than enough blame to go around, the problem problem is there's not enough answers to be shared.

so i'm going to come to the epa and ask you, since foia is under my subcommittee and the foia request allows the public to look at documents often use in a regular basis by reporters, i am troubled to hear that the foia request that doctor edwards has made actual you have not complied with the law. what you say to that? >> my understanding is that we are actively working. >> active is not now. we have families that are suffering and there is a law that says you have to respond within 21 days. so what do you say to doctor edwards who has been requesting information because as i understand and if you will help me with this that you have made request both of the state and of

the feds, who has been more responsive to you? >> the state of michigan has been very responsive. >> so how many documents of what you requested from the epa have you received today? >> i would have to check but i still have foia's' outstanding from nine years ago in washington, d.c. that i appealed in 2005 and the epa just contacted me one month ago about. >> nine years. let me tell you the trouble i have with this. we have a site in western north carolina called cts, you're familiar with that i'm sure. >> i have heard about the site, i don't have direct personal knowledge about it. >> i would ask you since you're new to the job that you get some personal knowledge. >> s, search. >> we have a reoccurring theme here. we have on believable regulations that come down and then the epa does not enforce their own regulations.

there is a problem with that don't you think? >> it is important for epa to enforce its regulation. >> can you share with me your rationale why it would take nine years to answer foia request? >> i have no idea, i'm not familiar with the specific request. >> what commitment do we have from you today to get those foia responses answered as it relates to the flint, michigan issue? >> i will take that back and make sure. >> okay when can this committee and doctor edwards expect a response? is the law clear? >> i believe the law is clear on the timeframe for a response, i will take that back and ensure high priority. >> savvy sleep you prepare for the searing this morning. when you were talking about the information that needed to be shared with the people of flint, what was your own internal guidance, what did they recommend that you share?

>> what happens as everybody gets lawyered up and then they do nothing. i can tell you from a bipartisan standpoint, this republican from western north carolina is going to work with democrats from michigan to make sure that not only you are held accountable but the state is held accountable and all of those who have been involved are held accountable. we have children, it could have been my children in flynn, michigan, and i am not going to forget that. it could have been your children. so what kind of commitment do we have to get the documents to this committee so that we can figure out who is to blame? >> my understanding is there have been discussions between the committee staff and the agency and that commitment has been made to work expeditiously to get the documents as well as

documents related to the committee. >> so do you think 60 days is enough time? >> my understanding is the agency has agreed to provide some documents that we can provide by the end of this week. >> very good, you'll back. >> thank you will now recognize the gentleman from pennsylvania. >> thank you mr. chairman. i would like to associate myself with remarks of the ranking member mr. cummings. not to put too fine a point on it, we we have what we see here is the responsible parties been caught red handed, so red-handed that he had to admit his blame and apologize to the nation and to flint, the governor of michigan and his emergency manager hand-picked to save money. in keeping with his philosophy of government to save money on infrastructure at the expense of public safety, he got caught red

handed poisoning children in flint. the residents of flint, there is no two ways about it. that is the headline here, but you know criminals when they get caught red-handed you know know they start to do right away, they start to try to spread the blame. oh there is plenty of blame to go around i hear. there's plenty around so let's just put aside the fact that the governor of michigan got caught red handed poisoning his citizens. let's forget about that. let's also try to blame the michigan, the flint local official. representative kildee from flint data. testified it made it very point that there is an attempt to create an equivalency of blame, that is what i say, they they are spreading the blame out. anytime somebody says something about a seven-one boat in flint,

that is exactly what dan kildee is talking about. people trying to put the blame on local officials in flint, blame that has no place with local officials in flint. this is the governor of michigan at fall. his amused agency managers and i was saddened to hear that mike coley from florida say out loud and talk about the seven-one boat. they voted seven - one not to switch to flint river, they voted voted seven-one is something completely different. it's a reprehensible attempt to achieve what dan kildee calls the equivalency of blame and something that criminal defendants always do when they get caught red-handed. i want to talk about what the state did and made a decision not to use the flint river and then it reversed that decision, am i correct in that?

>> i was not party to the decision. >> you are not there. according to press results in one of the emergency managers for flank, mr. mr. jerry ambrose, is he here today? can anybody tell me why jerry ambrose is not here today? can anybody tell me why the governor of michigan is not here today? because he is hiding. that's what's happening. an breast testified in a sworn deposition that in 2012 the governor's previous emergency manager in flint, ed had rejected a previous proposal to use flint river water is a primary source of drinking water. are you are you aware of that decision? >> i am not. >> let me read it to you and i quote. it was was a collective decision of the emergency management team, based on conversations with the deq that indicated they would not be supportive of the use of flint river on a long-term basis as a primary source of water.

mr. ambrose was asked why your department made that recommendation he replied and i quote, you'll have to ask them. so i am asking you as the head of the and deq, why did your department previously oppose the use of flint river water as a primary source back in 2012 question mike. >> i don't have knowledge to that. >> you don't know. your predecessor was dan wyatt and that's why we have called for his deposition mr. chairman. a press that request. i'm trying to figure out what happened between 2012 when your department opposed using the flint river and 2014 when you reversed course and signed off

on permits to allow it. you cannot explain it to us because you are not there at the time, right? >> that is correct. >> we're having a hearing in washington, d.c. with witnesses who do not have personal knowledge of the subject, how crazy is that? how interested are we in getting the we getting the facts when they bring here witnesses that don't know what on. in a press release stated 2015 date stated the quality of the water being put out meets all of our junk and water and flint water is safe to drink. he said that, you know that right? >> it was a lie was in it. >> his comment was in relation to the water leaving the plant and make sure it met safe drinking water standards and that is what he based that, on. >> mr. chairman, i'm out of time, i hope you'll designate a hearing as soon as possible so that we can have witnesses who actually know what the facts were at the time. i yelled back. >> the gentleman from george's now recognize. >> thank you mr. chairman. the survey i want to begin with you. the lead may not be as protected

as previously considered. the safe drinking water act requires that the lead and copper role be updated every six years, are you aware of that? >> there is a provision requiring a review of the regulation. >> when was the last time it was updated? >> 2007 was less time it was updated. >> wise the epa so far behind? >> we been working actively, we want to get advice from our advisory council from our advisor counsel with regards to the revisions that will be propose. we also received. >> how many years does it take to get the information in order to abide by what you are required to do? >> this is a high-priority forest and its essential we move forward with provision. >> is at a high priority for all of? i don't know mr. chairman if there's been more of a catastrophe in government handling of an issue since hurricane katrina. this is absolutely a train wreck are in every and epa so far behind not doing the job, when

will the updated version be ready? >> the current schedule for proposing has a committed 2017. it's important we take action in advance of completing revisions to the rule to review how the current rule is being implemented. doctor edwards and others have raised a number of important issues regarding the implementation of the current rule. >> my question is when will it be ready? >> my expectation is that it will be proposed in 2017. >> do we have your commitment that it will be early 2017? >> i certainly would hope the agency. >> you realize that's yet another year. >> i do. >> to get something that should've been done four years ago. do we have your commitment to have it done early's 2017. >> i can agree that it will be one of the highest priorities in my office as well as to implement the current rule.

>> when mr. del toro presented his memo about the high levels of lead in the drinking water in june, where did that memo go? >> my understanding is that mr. del toro gave the memo to ms. walters whose home was the subject of the testing. i understand that was provided to her a reporter and it went into the public. >> at some point mr. del toro was on leave of absence, who worked on this issue? >> i'm not aware that his place and leave of absence. >> okay, mr. edwards will be go to. do you believe in any way that the epa's management of this whole thing hindered its employees from having the ability to do their job in flint? >> absolutely. >> do you believe the pa management made the lead crisis in flint worse? >> absolutely.

>> who at the epa do you? >> miss susan hedman who had the memo buried, covered up as mr. del toro was publicly discredited for his work. when she was questioned by politicians from all parties, through september of this year she discounted that there is anything of concern and flint occurring at all, and that includes mayor, the people from the state government as well as democratic congressional staff. >> okay. mr. chairman, has the letter from john o'grady, the pa union representative yet been entered into the records? >> which letter. >> from john o'grady. >> if it has not we will enter it without objection, sorted. >> inc. you. let me go back to you.

are you aware of any other situation in region five where there are, where there may be potential of contaminated water? >> there's been a concern with high lead levels in the drinking system in which they have been made aware of and that last week. my understanding is action is being taken care of in that situation. i believe epa staff has been on the ground as of yesterday looking at that situation. what about other regions throughout the country? there are drinking water issues throughout the country that we are monitoring actively and working with our state partners to address. >> mr. chairman my time has expired. i think you and yelled back.

>> i think the gentleman and now recognize ms. kelly for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chaired i want to thank you members for having this hearing, i also want to thank for the leadership on this issue. i also associate myself with the remarks and ranking member cummings. we need to get the folks here who can answer the question of why this happened. i hope when we have another hearing that mr. del toro will be here as well as the governor and other people that we deem necessary. want to thank the residents of flint for being here and this walters, thank you so much for all of your efforts and for your testimony. on november 20, 2015 the epa flint drinking water test worse commented on the lead and copper sampling. the task force made several recommendations including removing pre-flashing from the sample collection process.

the task force concluded", these changes should be made to all of the sampling recommendations or instructions from mde q2 all systems, not just flint. mr. craig do you agree that these changes should be made statewide? >> i agree and those changes have been made. >> that have been may? >> yes. >> okay so across michigan. doctor edwards do you feel the recommendations by the epa task where should a ply across the nation? >> absolutely. >> would you include anything else in the recommendation? >> well obviously the utility should be following the protocol for identifying the high risk sampling pool. all across the united states they're supposed to be sampling from the homes that are highs chris for lead and water. there is the real reason to believe that is not occurring in the whole effectiveness of the rule is based on that for stuff as well. >> what are the barriers to epa applying these recommendations

across the country? >> my understanding is that we can move forward with making these recommendations across the country and we are actively working on that. in terms of regulatory requirements those issues will be taking up in the revisions of the role. >> i think this change should be pursued if it means we'll get a more accurate picture of lead contamination in our drinking water across the nation and stop future lead water crisis from happening. we must stop the problems that the most basic level of detection and ensuring we are getting accurate information. we also must stop lane with people's lives and practicing government on the cheap as well as systemic and environmental discrimination. i yelled the rest of my time. >> thank you. i wanted to just and emphasize something and we can said enough. when we say we are pointing fingers there is the federal government epa, and there's the

the state government. under the emergency manager in michigan, the local government, the city the city of flint has no government authority. so the decisions that were made on the actions that were taken we can look at the state level and we can look at the federal level. i want to be clear about that. all of us who live in michigan clearly understand the emergency manager act. it comes. it comes in and it dissolves home rules. the emergency manager reports only, only to the state government and that is our governor. i also want to say that when we're saying the epa had not showed up until this last week when the new secretary showed up i want to enter this into the record, january 21,

there is a united states epa office of enforcement and compliance assurance letter submitted to the city saying that as a result, the epa is issuing s -- order to make sure the necessary actions to protect public health happen immediately. in addition, because of the failure of the state the state no longer has the responsibility of testing the water in flint. just this last week it was taken over, this week it was taken over by epa because of the failure of the state to comply with this order. so it may have come late. but to say nothing had happened from the epa to that point, again, there is documented failure for on the states part two actually collected test the water. we have again the state in the

federal government. if were talking about pointing fingers that's not why i'm here. i'm not pointing fingers, i want the truth and i want this corrected. thank you. i yelled back. >> as to the document will enter that into the record, unless there's an objection. so ordered. >> thank you mr. chairman. doctor edwards, ms. walters, thank you for your courage on this issue. also for exposing for the nation when things failed. what is the fundamental core mission of the epa? >> to protect the public health and the environment. >> i see. you stated the lead copper rule was updated in 2007 yet from our fax we see the lead copper rule has not been finalized in any

long-term for 25 years, why is that? >> there has been efforts to update the row periodically over time, it it was updated most recently in 2007. the long-term revision to the rule is what we are working on now. >> what we're working on, so for 25 years we've been working on. in the last decade the epa has issued about 1000 rules per year, yet the lead copper rule has not been finalized in 25. when to expect that will be done. >> as i said before, my expectation is will propose the rule in 2017. >> according to epa's agenda that was released last wallet stated that was released last wallace stated that the agency hopes to finalize the rule in 2018. so once again we see a moving target. we got it, we'll take it back, we'll get back to you, we're working on it, that is not the core mission of protecting the health of people where they

live, where where they were, and where they recreate. in fact, we've seen in places in flint that it was unfit for a work environment yet we've seen procedures that are moved on and made the community more risk over time. doctor edwards, do you believe the epa is violated the law and its statute? >> yes i do. i don't think they're following or enforcing the law. >> what you believe has created the shift away from the epa core mission? >> well, they have a very cozy relationship with utilities. an example of predatory capture i think. they are not listening to voices of people have been harmed by this regulation in washington

d.c., durham, and flints. that is what happens when you listen to one group and ignore the people who arbitrate this rule. >> 25 years lead copper rule has been a problem. communities don't really have certainty, they don't have finalization, so, so now a patchwork of requirements exist nationwide. how do we fix it? >> for starters who could enforce the existing law. the law would have stopped flint, what a stop washington, dc. if it wasn't for these instructions been added to the rule allowing people to throw out samples for eight different reasons, none none of these things would have happened. all i want is for them to enforce the existing law. that's all i have been requesting.

and my colleagues have been working on this for the last ten years washington, d.c. >> there has been a statutory requirement to do updates the mandates in it by your testimony we see dates all around that do not sink with previous statements from the epa as far as when this lead copper rule will be mandated. we have heard testimony that not only is it convincing but it is condemning to the priorities of the epa. what is your answer to this. >> i want to emphasize that it epa's position and it has been throughout the situation that the water system in flint was required to apply corrosion control upon making the transition to the flint river. that that is something that they resisted throughout the process

and if that role had been observed here and corrosion control have been applied, the situation would not have occurred. >> yet we have a trail of emails where your own agency and region five tried to belittle, obstruct , and pretty much eliminate the voices from the community. yet now now you're going to shift that to the michigan deq, is that what i'm hearing you say? >> when we look back on the situation, knowing what we know now, everyone should have done everything humanly possible to avoid the situation. at epa we need to go back and understand what happened and understand that it never happens again. support and to remember how we got the situation. >> 1991, 2004, 2007, what is it going to be again, how many more ms. walters are we going to have to here? which city is next? get the rule finalize.

you oh it to the american people. we have certain expectations. while we all have different opinions about the thousands of rules that get passed in the last decade, i think this one with lead copper in drinking water's pretty important. with that mr. chairman i you'll back. >> thank you we now recognize the gentleman from california. >> thank you mr. chair. let's call what happen in flint what it is, a crime of epic proportions. we have tens of thousands of women, men, children poisoned by lead when it leaked from the metal pipes. those responsible know who they are, they should resign as some of them should be prosecuted. i would like to focus today my comments and questions about how do we make this right for the residents of flint. i believe we help make it right i giving them a permanent solution. that means replacing their lead

pipes. i want to enter for solid to the record dated january 5,. >> without objection so ordered. i remind the audience know of plots, billing or any reaction would be appropriate for this. >> i would like to read a few cents from articles. it says the safe drinking water act requires the pa to set set standards for the concentration of lead in public pipes with the push for leadfree. this turn the country on a road of old water pipes with pvc also known as plastic pipes as an eco- friendly alternative. however many poor municipalities instead turn to anticorruption agents as a cheaper and faster solution. had flint had plastic pipes we are not be sitting here today, correct? >> that is correct. >> even if anticorruption agents

over time, the metal pipe still crow, sacra question? >> yes, sir. can i mmi earlier answer. even with past steak pipes you'd still have to look at the fixtures within the various facility and so i just want to put a sharper point on that. >> thank you. we have over 850 water main breaks per day in america caused by corrosion even with anticorruption agents in the water. is that roughly correct? >> i do not know that number. we have a lot of water main breaks, that is a true statement. >> so i want to enter into the record and article that flint water crisis says lead pipes have got to go, nbc news. would you agree that there needs to be a rapid removal of lead pipes now and to be replaced

with a nonlead alternative? instead of the band-aid solution of just antichrist of agents agents or simply recoding these lead pipes. >> i think it is a complicated issue as congresswoman norton had pointed out that partial replacement may cause additional problems. that's the reason we are working with the experts to make sure that whatever happens. >> what about full replacement with plastic pipes or other nonlead pipes? >> that that would be one solution. >> okay. i would ask another question. are you aware that many newer, wealthier cities in america and canada have switched to plastic pipes as alternatives lead pipes? >> i think there is a prohibition that was in the building codes to prohibit the continued use of lead pipes. >> so let me switch to the epa.

i liked entered to the record mr. chair report from the natural resource of defense counsel, says the study finds safety drinking water at risk, and a report on the 19 cities. >> without objection, so ordered. >> we really have a national national problem don't way of lead pipes all around america that bleach letter to the water system, correct? >> there millions of lead service lines across the country's and thousands of systems. it is a challenge is a challenge first nationwide. >> we have hundreds of water main breaks because those pipes are being corroded, correct. >> yes we have significant water main breaks. >> there. >> there nonlead alternative such as plastic piping or the pipes that would not leak lead into the water supply, correct. >> yes.

>> is there an epa rule on plastic pipes? >> i'm not aware of a specific role of specific bite. >> does the epa rule on letting copper because those are toxic? >> that's a creek. >> is there any reason the epa does not look at have a municipality switch to plastic pipes or other nonlead alternatives? >> there actually are lead service line replacement requirements that can be triggered under the letting copper role that exist today. that's when certain action levels are exceeded. this will be a major subject of engagement and analysis in the letting copper role revision. we have advice from national drinking water buys her counsel and from other stakeholders on these issues. it is important to remember even as we look at issues of full lead service line replacement, i believe doctor edwards and others it has to be done and

done correctly in order not to create bigger problems. >> thank you. i will make a request and then you'll back. if you have another hearing i do ask that we have a witness that can talk about how we can sell this on an ongoing basis. >> ..

>> >> that was read the rest

which was iron. >> i think he said it was the city's responsibility to certify that the standards had been met? how often are they supposed to do that? >> it is in a dual basis. >> -- in a new basis so when is the most relevant cert? >> i believe that there is a and 80 will review. >> they're sending the results to you of though water quality? >> so to still speak to that >> you can see what i am

trying to get to. >> to do that move the report in april 2014 showed no water quality was a problem? >> it met the safe to - - the safe to drink the water act parameters. >> did the city ever send a report that said it did not meet the standards ever? >> that is a different question. so though water quality parameters don't necessarily ask for lead to be tested at that point in time. >> while. is that true? the epa doesn't require that? >> i believe you baby talking about two different

things with the low water quality parameter to be compliance with lead and copper is monitored from this service system because the lead leaches into the system isn't taken at the treatment plant but in 2014 the flint system had multiple violations including the disinfection byproducts rule. >> is unfortunate i only have five minutes and can not only do a proper disposition -- deposition so my state does not report on the limited water did they report to the epa? >> that is the primary

agency. >> those results are reported through the system. >> they may talk about the of quality of water. >> ultimately yes. >> my time is the. >> mr. chairman listing to this entire panel discussion , my questions will be directed that it is clear to be the responsibility is and with bill local officials because they were as much victims as the elected local

residents, as the director of the department of environmental quality at that level you are primarily responsible. you am the governor of the status of some of live dash the state of michigan to place those individuals in that responsibility over the city of flint michigan then taking all party away to and from the elected officials in the city of michigan, you have primary responsibility and an apology rings hollow after the fact. your boss appointed emergency managers to the city of flint 2011 through 2015. based on the block, the governor in 2011 and the

emergency villagers took over all the powers exercised by the flint city council and mayor. is that something be elected representatives did not like? there is nothing they could do about it. on march 23rd the city council attempted to reverse a decision to use the flint river water and adopted a resolution of the vote seven / one and i quote, to return to the detroit water and sewage department for the purchase of water. are you aware of that resolution? >> i have not seen the spirit of the problem is that flint was still under control zero under the emergency manager so the next day on march 24 coming he overruled the city council vote in this is what he said paul mack flint

water today is saved by all epa standards in the city is working delete tool improve quality. water from detroit is no safer than flint. are you aware of that statement? >> cannot as. >> i am not. >> d you agree that his actions was a horrible decision for the people of flint? >> i cannot address his actions. but i can say the plant in flint had been used historically as a backup water supply utilizing the flint river and past performance standards event had been tested on a quarterly basis.

>> that is interesting that i am looking now water held that bin baby bottles that looks like lemonade and iced tea. if he led this city council's decision is that not so? can you say yes or no? >> if he let the city council resolution to return to the detroit system as a choice of water coming with the actual amount of lead exposure in flint been reduced. >> i believe it is a true statement. >> this decision by the governor emergency management came about the extremely high levels of lead in your house. >> correct february and march. >> i am so very sorry and

for you and the residents and the children. it seems thus it decision of the emergency manager was one of the worst actions and the entire to bolick calls. >> how long have you been involved at the director level? >> from january 2010 to spur the michigan department of natural resources are you a member of his team? >> i a member of the cabinet >> who owns the deep water authority and is there any relationship of that authority to the governor to his campaign or the party that is represented by the governor in the state? >> i have no such knowledge. >> finally, what is the most

you could have done a department to correct this problem had responded in a timely manner? what could you have done? >> congresswoman that is what we need to take a look at. the epa needs to look at it to do the right bait but the questions we need to ask at what point in time should the epa force them were provide the public directly with information. >> that is my question. what do you mean should the epa have forced the situation? what could it do within its authority? >> i don't want to use speculate but i do recognize

cpi has the emergency response authority under the safe drinking water act. >> want it noted you didn't answer my question for the record. >> duly noted. mr. palmer. >> the epa point out it known page 41 is is there is no demonstrated safe concentration of lead in the blood. is that still the opinion about the lead and then to copper rule.

last date it was updated was kidney to explain why we are delaying through 2018? >> with that advice from our revisory council and with the epa official about what to is:space haven't you don't need to solicit bin now the people who have been impacted end with those provisions are not the issue of the flint and those in of

the elevated levels but don't know of anything but does the epa get that data from the cdc? >> with respect they have data. >> i did not ask you that. including lead in paint and a foil of the program has addressed all these issues

it. >> the eric tate said the in georgia day had a toxic spill and another epa whistle-blower and reveal the epa was involved with vitter recent and going into the groundwater what do you know, about that? >> hi aid to newness pacific's dell led its hue would he care and five haitian and. -- shadow and those affected

into adulthood. not just a friend problem. i cannot remember but it has lost credibility in this goes beyond, not just apa the problems that the state couple but with people coming in here with their children in front of this committee to try to give the

governor in what is supposed to do. i yield back the balance. >> the woman from the virgin islands is recognized. >> thank you for the opportunity to speak with these witnesses. you have my in my constituents heartfelt condolences in us devastation that will ocher with the years moving forward. a few days ago "the boston globe" ran an article to epitomize the worst kind of environment for racism. that conclusion made be true but what has happened is symptomatic of economically disadvantaged neighborhoods all across america regardless of the race and it continues to happen because america tolerates

environmental hazards. >> it is just one kind of aneurin for other challenge communities, a toxic chemicals are stored in a nearby facilities or use to the manufacturing plants. you seem to be shocked and surprised. unfortunately that i am not shocked at all. i am not shocked because it is par for their courses and it is unfortunate we have a crisis like this occur around the country every day whether toxic drinking water, land, for in the most part of the common denominator is low income

stick that is the common factor and the common denominator in flint with other places that is talked about in washington d.c.. search americans don't count for much governors, a federal agencies will lag their figures at the town to tell them if they don't manage their money properly to bring those overseers and you don't want to spend the money to support those. we create select committees and drive people to testify over issues that they think are important. that they think are important to. not to disparage or bakelite

they have looked at that but we cannot get the governor for responsive action that will affect 9,000 children. that is a shame. that is business as usual. but i want to talk about the money and where it was spent. many people in the michigan state every could have stopped this tragedy from occurring despite the fact they contributed governor schneider puts in the positions of increasing responsibility. take the emergency manager as an example did you know, he was paid $180,000 for doing his job? >> i did not. >> i have an article here that talks about that.

during his tenure tens of thousands of men women and children were exposed to extremely unhealthy levels of lead. that governor schneider rewarded him with a new position of emergency manager in detroit public-school system. did you know, he received a salary of that job? >> i am not aware. >> fema he received a salary of 221,000 and the promotion and a $41,000 raise? you think governor schneider was exercising good judgment to provoke mr. early from the flint water crisis? >> mr. early salary is between him and himself. >> i asked whether it was good judgment to promote him to that position. >> i am not in a position to refer to the governor's judgment. >> eight think others here would believe that it is the

dismal performance in flint does he deserve to be appointed to another job taking care of health and safety of thousands of children? >> are you aware that the salary was paid for by the town of flint not the state of michigan? >> know why was not your tax dollars paying for him to do the job he did on those children. so governor schneider rewarded him with another job that paid 221,000. they give for your attempt to subpoena mr. early and continue to enforce the subpoena that he along with the governor will appear in short order. >> i recognize myself.

we have kief jurisdiction on the federal government epa in a more limited role by the very nature of tax dollars and accountability at the state level. still able but it is less. our focus many times is primarily of jurisdiction dollars it is not to excuse but the remedy at this is the county or state level. that there were dramatic failures at the city and state level and a complete

case to be made about the need to look at the state emergency manager i understand that. but we will be because of the federal entity and the united states congress. we have had something festering for a long period of time. often if there is smoke there is a bigger fire for: the administrator who oversaw a lift with if you times he prosecuted and had to serve jail time for fraud. she got a promotion. now she is in charge of the epa.

you say it is a high priority but what evidence to support. in july of last your we highlighted the problems of regional five and the three people who stepped up to say was anything done? >> i am not privy to those discussions. >> she just retired with no consequence. on monday for:but guess what? said retaliation bleeds over

there in you have a good person who steps up. what is the lesson that is learned? to make a think he is representative of the vast majority of the epa employs who are dedicated. >> you are testifying a high priority but go into the house in february? nine tel jean-marie. >> said epa is working with them to do the right saying. >> with hebert where they're trying to do that or suppress the evidence 80 his >> how do you respond? to meet the specific facts ought to be looked at.

>> we're looking today. you are in charge of water quality. he is telling you they would aid and abet that that information did nine get out. why? to make a word were keying it we in the u.s. should rely on the data. liggett. absolutely. >> the for those statements that were made in his communications maya understanding that epa was working closely and that it needed to be applied.

>> what is the number-one thing you should let them know? to read with the right questions to ask am glad to agree. >> is a borage juice to and. >> know it's not. it is important. >> i agree. >> why didn't they do that? they sat on it for almost one year. >> to issue the elevation impossible. >> january? they have added nearly one year. spirit they had been since. >> i can just say. >> then fire the whole lot what good is epa? if you do in is an moving

and but the lead is in the water they will not tell those kids? that is exactly what happened. he knew that. when? >> he did testing in early 2015 and a new the lead levels were incredibly high. i believe if spinach you cannot come to a hearing before congress in be in charge of water quality in know the answer to that question. you have got to know why that is. >> the cry in shaving is

when they knew there was a problem. if it they used this there would stop using the water but the families don't have the resources of general motors. wendy you think they knew. >> i think they should have made it public as soon as that when he put his professional career on the line and they started to cover up at that point i personally believe it was criminal. >> that is why we will continue to investigate.

>> why has the epa failed to fulfill the folia request -- foia request. his whole life he studies water we need good people like mr. edwards fluoridated information at the epa. why can't we filled these foia requested is bin nine years when will he get that information? >> i don't know the specifics with regard to the foia request but i will let them know this is a fair run as high priority. >> that is fair in a timely manner but we have to know the answer to that question.

i have gone way past my time but i will yield back with the water to be toxic would you have denied it it or watch him so water while those children were poisoned with a narrower deficits?

event through his mind but it is the pattern in michigan in the pattern all over this country. communities of color as well as low and moderate-income communities. of the environmental injustice. i represent say lewis so there are examples of how the environmental racism plays out. next to a boy is in bin gloves in lead by the native fracturing of plants but

blood dash acre then i felt when my own daughter tested positive for the lead and a very young age. i know that is a long time ago and she is doing fine today. but. >> my children are dealing with health issues with a compromised immune system. >> so you believe they have suffered serious impair spee mickey is developing speech

issues and has a nemea. >> to repair the with the club closed negligence to protect the citizens. we had to repair to you? we will start here and i want to go down the table. >> every change though lot that the epa gets their beds from to protect utilities right now. >> only one person is fighting against what is represented there. if it is adopted what will happen in flint and there

are taking care of fells - - health wise. and not just children that our sick. of 15 year-old has to be your little - - level issues. 44 year-old man who had and i stroke because of problems with his blood pressure. to it does right for the people to be sure that the take care of to get the pipes replaced to see what we need to do. >> in to repair the damage it with pride very prevention and to ameliorate

the harm in to support those recommendations is wholeheartedly. and it will take up a lot longer to repair because fundamentally be trade buying the agencies to paid to protect them to get trustworthy people doing their job of before we could talking when i initially to help the people of flint. >> we have to except so it doesn't have to begin where were when and because this

is the crisis and a tragedy if it was my child they would be an acceptable. >> i agree it is critical that first of all, we do all snicking into an to meet those recommendations and is going forward ruth of what we discussed with regard to strengthening it and implementation in we will listen to all stakeholders with that process. >> i know my time is up but they should never happen again in this country. it into this is tragic. i yield back.

>> recognizing the man from wisconsin. >> and we have had previous the with their fellow employees still in a key ring the alarm so verbally year ago re your that the children were being poisoned ? >> cry dollar for rationed basin the have live dash in

this walter's 84 we have done. to you have any special training the in the neck of the battalion's to get around to expose? >> the distorted to research and educate myself and figure out after our was publicly set up things for what you have done. next question but the state

of michigan epa physically presumably they test the water regularly? how often? >> once every six months. when was the first time that was available? early 2015 in my opinion they took steps to cover up the high lead has national guard's people walk the streets to distribute bottled water there is never an admission that the lead and copper rule so with the invalidated samples it shows

a joke with this regulation is. >> with the city manager have known the problem do they all know by that time? >> there are many employees that they were not following the federal corrosion control lot. you wouldn't think you'd have to wait to a round for lead in children's blood to spike before anything is done. >> okay they should have ring the alarm over one year ago. it's not in my city so wide right care -- why do i care? >> the chair recognizes the

woman from new mexico. >> event in addition to the disturbing nature that we tried to identify but i will go back to focus on the state. as a former secretary of health in new mexico we had in our stick problem bin to the second we knew there were elevated levels we

provide that information to set up health protocols to major are clearly doing the eric javits the accord job is public health. >> host: -- health end. i want to talk about the pediatrician who sought elevated levels but the flint strike isn't that states to reach your you can correlate data in there is a plan of action to protect everybody else is exactly what you need to do.

sold this pediatrician read to the department of health and wanted their day dash and in fact, i have emails from the department of health as part of the record. with e mail communication from the governor's office and public health employees is not to share any data which looks to me that they are making political decisions before they make appropriate decisions for the public health how many more kids were drinking water how many pediatricians are without enough

submission and there was also tell you that it and what it states specifically as a communication plan do not share information to the press conference starts at 1:30 p.m.. the co-workers responded they will wait to everybody was waiting for permission to give the data. can you explain why the governor's office to refrain

>> i can say she did some great work to zeroing in on some areas and that throws that decision making to identify the problem. >> isn't it true you have the team epidemiologists whose job it is to identify issues of this nature there in these communities and working together. or we helped find initiative and we have a political communication every it:dash every 80 it turns out to. >> why did the governor's office demand is the chief.

>> but to be a guest is the protocol for allstate civic michigan has very similar protocols with the exception to the health care professionals. >> how low do you rebut that purposeful nature given the fact that those protocols without being and we have the resources. >> bin we should not prevent any other harm or dear rich. >> without objection so ordered.

>> your question mr. edwards will come lasted very open-ended. but i want to talk about. >> and then in april 2015. >> what happened at that meeting? >> he was told my planning was the problem so she came to verify my plumbing was plastic to check out the home in the area and take pictures and that discussion and thereafter.

and after the report with his view of the situation credited and action taken. >> everything in the report told him what was going on plus his findings with him and being an expert in his field when he asked if he can use my information and i said yes and i asked for a copy. when i sought him blackett right -- black-and-white there is a difference that is why it was made public that these people did have a right to know and from that point he was no longer to have association with me or anyone else in flint. >> by a few? >> the fda -- the epa. >> you just have to ask what i have been told.

>> how do you gain access i first found out read told there was a problem. but he asserted me to their health issues. >> sold provided by david i thought it was best if epa handle this as the foremost expert on the lead and copper rule in one would state it there is a home is there something done about it? i gave him my data.

>> when you didn't act? >> i did that tell what happened intel the nurses reported back that he had been handled. then it was very clear in agreement had been reached between the epa to let them have their way with the flints children. >> perhaps in which way? and waiting until the new pipeline cannot mix your thinking it is of waste of time to do anything to treat the water.

and the emails said say don't bother wasting your time on this issue? >> i find this so astounding but this is referred to as a racial issue. in my own state there was an administrative order for 17 years in the refinery that i live right next to to protect the water the cattle were drinking and the epa made them. this is not unique but a situation that occurs time in but listen to people.

not just companies. my time is expired. >> thanks to the chair in the ranking member for again up folding their authority in bin to with their bipartisan approach i sit on the house judiciary committee bin i cannot be anything but a greek. as a mother and an american. to the mother that is year we already called you a hero

because you have a child impacted. to give fe poison concoction that there is a jim jones to children and their families. if they should demand accountability we should. you have given a recounting bin as of may and who believes in the constitution was their criminal activities or results? to rectify this and criminal i don't know what is. >> i join you.

and i have asked the department of justice to investigate individuals that may being gauged criminally to hold them responsible for the actions. >> is editor statement you claim regardless of that testing some digital so the of the levels begin to read that again this is your quotation. the rather than taking responsibility you criticized the epa for failing to provide a legal interpretation of the lead and copper ruled through 2015. that they did not display a underscored by conversation. regarding implementation

with multiple exchanges said conference calls that win the parties cannot come to a consensus that epa failed to provide a legal opinion. as i present this question let me think the former mayor flowerer her leadership into the new mayor let me applaud the hero we are committed to fix will come on your watch. are you telling this committee and the reason it failed to require corrosion was because epa did not give you a legal interpretation that you had to do that? where is your own moral responsibility?

>> i am not stating the only reason was lack of the legal opinion. my testimony said we should have at the latest one is the sixth round testing came we should have had action. >> so you are not taking the position you could not act as an independent state? i hate assume you are concerned about those in michigan. >> event was a malfeasance in not doing what was supposed to be done. >> we always share in the responsibility. >> it is a strange belief with the testimony so i just

want to hear again. >> i believe we all share responsibility. >> now we all say we want to help. also rachel maddow to occur show to a flint michigan to give as an added inspiration. in those actors use are eager to be there but in their needs to be a change this bin mcfadyen as the lead to give a response that you would said engaged for

the lead governor this not here, there should be an empty chair but to complete the zero her - - overhaul the city of flint? will lead you agree? from state government we are in it for though long haul and well. >> you are the expert. >> now we will move on and to reach out for help, everybody in southwest virginia a end free louis

to a - - before the hearing started in the hallway, going over your resume may to say his resume is great. . .