book tv, since 1998 all the top nonfiction authors and books available at booktv.org. >> afterwards is next. we discuss race and the obama presidency. >> you are ahead of the curve. you created this book. who is barack obama when it comes to race? >> guest: a complicated human being. one of the smartest mende occupy the oval office who thinks about the issues of race. he wrote one of the extraordinary memoirs. he used the n-word profusely , but in context.

show the nitty-gritty of race, grappled with political consequences, talked about shifting between a father from kenya in the white mother from kansas, their heritage, and speaking as a biracial child trying to fit in. he brings all of that to bear on the oval office and is a man who has a brilliant understanding of the political consequences of race but has been reticent to discuss these issues for understandable reasons. the moment he begins to speak about race not only do his numbers tank, but there is quite a bit of grief, consternation, anxiety, and finger-pointing. we can say that's pretty much anything he does because the division is not in society but in his blackbody that has marked

the presidency in a way that will be permanent. never again can the presidency as an institution exist without the history of a black man having graced its roster for two terms. struggling on the issue of race, trying to grapple with the best way to address the nation about some racial crises that prevail. >> host: let's talk about the struggle. you mentioned that his poll numbers tank. the 1st issue, i remember early on in his presidency, the beer summit issue. you address that in this book. >> guest: right, returned from a trip to china, discovered his door was jammed in cambridge, massachusetts, got his driver to help them jimmy opened the door. a passerby saw it and thought something was askew.

call the police. they came. discovered it was professor gates home. there was some tension. professor gates was subsequently lured, if you believe the story, onto his porch and then arrested. the president said, this is my friend and says, people would think the police were acting stupidly. he said, let's not deny that racial profiling is a problem. what he said those words, that caused an entire weeks with of controversy. eventually the arresting officer and professor gates were brought to the white house with vice president biden and president obama for what was dubbed a beer summit to personally resolve

broader issues. that did set the tone for president obama's subsequent engagement with race. >> host: in that moment really, the foreshadowing of things to come, he unknowingly sparked a conversation on racial profiling. toward the end of that 1st term we had trade on martin. he talk about that in the 1st chapter. his trial and hours. talk about the relationship, that link that has gone through your book. talk to me about those issues to the end of the book where you end of the sermon at the church in south carolina. >> guest: you are absolutely right.

contending with racial difference, crisis, black people who are victims of certain forms of violence from individual private citizens like george zimmerman killing mr. martin, the white gentlemen who killed jordan davis because his music was too loud and they got into an argument. and so when we look at what happened and ferguson with michael brown being killed by the policeman, darren wilson when we look at what happened in south carolina in the church, where an armed white racist and white supremacist murdered nine innocent souls. both from the state through the police and their violence toward unarmed by people and in the broader society where white racial

violence had a resurgence ironically and paradoxically enough under the 1st black presidency obama had to contend with the ebb and flow of race. you play a significant role in many instances because us questions that were on the minds of millions of black people. i want to thank you on behalf of black america because your questions were timely and relevant. not necessarily questions the president wanted to address, but he did respond. barack obama determined early on, this is not a kind of argument i conversation unnecessarily want to have. if i can't control the conditions, then i will be hesitant to engage in racial discourse and rhetoric because it will only inflame passions and exacerbate tension.

the problem is when racial crises begin to occur and flair along the trajectory of racial hostility he was slow to the uptake, not really engaged with the issue, wanting and preferring to allow it to slide on the one hand, and when he did address the issue of race occasionally he would chide versus the structural inequities that could be addressed. that presented a problematic situation for him racially. as i argue in the book, his strategy of strategic inadvertence, making explicit his criticisms of black people, that difference in contrast showed us his thinking in the difficulties he confronted. >> host: you are touching on so much.

>> guest: well, the president had these fantasies. why wouldn't be. he has a fantasy. i wish i could say what i really believe. you know, i am sure all presidents two. you can imagine the tensions of living in the skin them barack obama are even more heavy and weighty. so he fantasized about going forward. warren beatty that that movie out.

he was depressed. wanted to give family the money. she had a 2nd lease on life. telling the truth of seaside. i argue in the book there was potential butterworth moments. he was able to prove jokes and humor and signify the things that we know deep

inside he probably believed. for instance, for all of my conspiracy minded figures who think i'm out here trying to control american do things. you are right. it was a way of paying back symbolically the rhetorical investment that have been made and paving the way my other young black people to support this president. a transgender latina immigrant was making noise and saying, do something about the issue.

he is like, no, you have got to go. right now i can't. finally one of the moments when he had this anger translator, the last correspondence dinner command he is so outrageous that the translator himself sigil the crazy. he had a bucket list. funny and humorous, but it was a relief for the deeper tensions surrounding this president and his ability to speak to them. >> host: it is interesting covering the president. i see a clear difference between 1st and 2nd term barack obama. talk to me about those differences.

why do you think that he was not able to do the bull worth moment 1st term? >> guest: the practical considerations were once you get elected, you want to get reelected. he had to overcome certain barriers. he had no record in terms of national politics. but he was a clean slate upon which people could inscribe their hopes, dreams, ambitions, fantasies , and inject their ideals. but now you have done stuff that people either like or don't like. and so now with that history and record weighing on him, and pinching in the public consciousness he had to

negotiate those tensions. and when he won reelection people that often prognosticate, well, he will be a lot more radical. i don't think they thought he would come out speaking swahili and paint the white house black but be more explicit on the subject of race. and he wasn't until he was forced into it. immediately after his reelection martha fudge, then the head of the congressional black caucus said you are talking about diversity. you don't have diversity in terms of race. we are disappointed in you. that may not have been a move that in the 1st term

was made because black people were intolerant of any criticism of president obama, even legitimate criticism. using all manner of foul language. that is not what people were tolerant of or within expected. there is legitimate need for holding any president accountable, and one of the strengths collectively speaking has been the ability to say president must do the right thing. fdr, delano roosevelt, franklin delano roosevelt was in the white house as president, met with the labor leader in the great educational leader and they

put forth a black agenda. franklin delano roosevelt said, i agree with everything you are saying. go on the public sphere and show them your pressing me to do the right thing. that should have happened with barack obama but it didn't. we only had half a brother, so to speak. it is understandable because he was unfairly assaulted by the right wing, vicious obstructionism, so black people were empathetic because it reflected what we feel when we occupy similar spaces, and as a result he was not pushed and told black lives matter rolls up, white reactionary behavior flooded the culture. then barack obama had to make serious speeches, like he did in selma in the

sermon he delivered at mother emanuel church in south carolina. >> host: as you say, african-americans were in a quandary trying to support him but not give republicans or anyone against him fodder to go after him. then there is a chapter want to talk about. you said something about my reporting. talk to me about this chapter. >> guest: i had just finished quoting web do boys who famously talked about the souls of black folks. getting a little goodie. those who are scholars. so what i am suggesting is barack obama has had the tendency to remonstrate morally. you're not doing the right thing.

that is a tradition that goes back to slavery were black people hold each other to account, hold them responsible. don't just tell me about what the white man is doing. tell me what you are doing. use what you have in your disposal to change your life. they also believe in structural impediments being removed. obama has focused on one side of holding black people morally responsible. the problem is when he shapes and frames it in a certain fashion he makes it appear as if black people are uniquely disposed toward pathological behavior, and he throws them before the public in ways that seem to be inappropriate. as the commencement speaker at morehouse college the

president began to ache story eight young people by saying, hey, look -- and this is a black men's college. >> host: and graduates the most african-americans in the country. >> guest: so at that college, you know, president obama said you must get -- you must work hard for everything you get, but no one is going to give you something you didn't earn. they have earned it, graduating from college. the only person who did not earn a degree that day was barack obama busy at an honorary degree. then he said these black men have to make no excuses.

it is curious why he would say those things to that particular audience. i think many black people rightfully were upset by that, and also i was at the 50th anniversary of the march on washington and he made some remarkably dispiriting arguments saying black people in certain fashion were responsible for the stalled progress of race in the civil rights movement, using the excuse of poverty not to rear their children are take care of themselves, in my words and interpretation and unfortunately he scolded black america with poor history, usually an excellent public interpreter, but at that time and during that season he was caught up in the desire to show broader white america that he could hold

black people to account and because he genuinely and honestly believe those ideas. there was not much space in the culture to quibble or argue with him. jesse jackson who although making the unfortunate comment, and black people rightfully responded -- >> host: the moment on fox news before he became president. >> guest: the cameras and microphones or rolling and he made the comment that he wanted to cut his testicles off because he was speaking down the black people. that was the most important thing, he was condescending black people. >> host: there is such love and at that time was so much love for barack obama. there was a joke in the black community, jesus and then barack obama. >> guest: king jesus and barack. >> host: yes.

with that, was he and his right to say it, or should have said it behind closed doors and the lights are off? >> guest: i'm not one to say things behind closed doors. i didn't know. i didn't get no invitation. that is malarkey to a certain degree, but there is something to be said for going to black institutions and engaging people in privacy where you can say rather more stern things. all groups have tough words for each other, sometimes in public and sometimes behind closed doors. what was most offensive is the president took the occasion of a grand celebration for the occasion of my graduation of a historically black college to ache story of those people and the harsh in his demeanor and language that was unnecessary, and as the

president you have got the biggest bully pulpit. when he chooses those targets, he does so willingly, intentionally, and understanding what the consequences might be. was he within his right? of course he was,was, but he was wrong to do so within his right. wrong to exploit the extraordinary support he received. those were impressive numbers. >> host: in this goes to one of your topics in the book. i can't sound like martin. now i wanti want to read a piece from page number 165 from a chapter, the scolded black folks. are you better off? at a press conference in 2014 where it was probably noted the president fielded queries only from women

fearlessly targeting gender to make a point, true to form blackness but not race took a backseat. finally at the end of the conference there was a question forced about the state of black america in light of racial issues. obama replied, better off now than when i came to office. that assertion does not hold up under even cursory examination. so why not? >> guest: only crunch numbers, there is no emotion, no religion. clinically dispassionate, objective, empirically -based estimation of what he said. when you look at all the numbers, black unemployment, black unemployment at one point was in excess of

14 percent which is heinous. and even then chairman of the congressional black caucus said, if that were a white president we would be marching around the white house. when you look at every social index whether it was black kids being expelled from school that early age in greater numbers, look at the housing crisis, the later on in his 2nd term along with the great victories of same-sex marriage in his own trade policy that he got cut, the housing victory that was not quite as much, but it was a significant victory. it does not have to be racial intent to judge housing practices that are unfair. it is the disparate impact.

even if you don't intend for it to be messed up, you have to hold people accountable, and that was a major victory. when you look at every social index, if you are aa white american you ought to be thankful for barack obama. unemployment is down, job growth for an unprecedented amount of months, and the man has single-handedly as a political figure encouraged the nation to do great things. he did extraordinary things, bailing out the automotive industry, bailing out the banks, gave us healthcare and tried to strengthen the economy all in the 1st two years were supposedly he had the support of his own party. the man has always had one hand tied behind his back in a fair fight. and he has done extremely well, except when it comes

to addressing issues of race you and i have been in the white house at meetings where i expressed to him directly my disagreement. and that man is not defensive, at least he was not when you and i were together. >> host: a very practical. >> guest: i told him, i believe the direct approach that is targeted. he said i disagree. and we argued about it. >> host: you are getting ready to bring in amen. >> guest: love him. why are you writing a book on obama, it could hurt his chances. >> host: of the president had to intervene. tom joyner.

>> guest: i don't want to make people think -- he is my friend, too. the president, to his credit, said i don't mind what michael is doing because legitimate criticism i can take. i don't like when people act as if i don't love black people. >> host: tell me this, and be honest. are you critical or balanced? >> guest: that is a great question. it is balanced criticism. i appreciate what the man is up against. there has been no president of the united states that is faced with this menace had to face. the near criminal level of obstruction, the refusal to work with them, the refusal on the day he was

inaugurated, when a group of republicans including newt gingrich got together and committed themselves to obstructing his presidency and turning him into a one term president. so if your end goal is not to govern well, not to help the president, to do the right thing, to obstruct all he does in order to render him a one term president, you're not only undermined democracy but are disloyal to the political ideals that have made this nation great. barack obama to his credit state close to those ideals and tried to work with them for longer than many believe he should have tried to do so. i understand obstructionism, the rise of the tea party,

how 54 percent of republicans now think he is a muslim. if he were muslim that would not be a problem, but it is not. he is a christian. >> host: i have seen him. that is my church. >> guest: it is real to him. >> host: and he preached. >> guest: the 1st there and other places as well. i have seen the extraordinary obstruction, racist resistance, horrible things done, and i acknowledge those, but that does not mean at the same time that president obama has not made miscues or mistakes as i see them, and i will share with the american reading public when i believe my interpretation of those failures are so we can work toward an appreciation for the greatness of his presidency

this presidency but also some of the flaws that may be manifest. >> host: michael dyson, the author of "the black presidency: barack obama and the politics of race in america". when you think of barack hussein obama, race and politics will always follow him. he brought so much to the table, a black family to the white house. >> guest: a beautiful black family. watching them grow up, seeing that brilliant and beautiful wife, a beautiful family, aesthetically pleasing. the beauty of their togetherness gave america a sense of what is achievable only permit the beauty and power in whatever form it takes. >> host: the chapter, page 214, you talk about 1st

lady michelle obama. it is interesting. i want you to elaborate. perhaps no other figure has civilized the complicated status of black women in america and the micro- aggression to which they're are subjected more prominently and first lady michelle obama. many tasks are as the angry black woman. reinforcing black female stereotypes that found sociological sway. talk to me about that. >> guest: i think michelle obama is one of the most remarkable figures in american public life. her husband is an incredibly charismatic and appealing figure. ..

>> guest: then they loved her because she would get after obama for kind of running late and saying these men have scheduled too. i mean, you know michelle obama could put that down -- >> host: she'll tell the president. [laughter] >> guest: come on, these men have scheduled too -- and women. they have schedules too. which is awful, you know -- >> host: she's a very real person. >> guest: oh, very real, right? but they didn't like her for two other reasons, right? first of all, she was hard on the republicans. i know a lot of black people at home went, my lady. and then the white secret service agent, former one, sat in the back of the presidential limousine, the car, that michelle obama said to the president every now and again take the side of black people in these crises. and so on the one hand, people go, man, that's south side, that's blackness, that's a kind of portable blackness that she brought authenticity to the political and presidential game

for barack obama, but also it may suggest if your wife has to tell you that, why is it that you don't already know the need for, the necessity of uchtionally understanding -- situationally understanding when black people's backs are against the wall as american citizens, and you as the president should take their side especially when they are being gunned down in the streets like you would any other citizen, when they are especially vulnerable to racist rebuff. you must use your bully pulpit to amplify their cause and their claims, and you must do so not simply as the first black president. that may be inessential at this point. what is essential, however, is that you as the representative of the state must speak on behalf of all citizens including african-american people. >> host: well, let me ask you this. that just, i mean, that sounds like someone who's in his corner just reaffirming -- i mean, sometimes a wife will reiterate changes that's already known just to say, you know, let's do this.

>> guest: right. >> host: with that do you think that this barack obama was the same barack obama in the first presidency that, i mean, was this -- did this happen during the first administration, i mean, versus now? >> guest: right. >> host: did this secret service agent hear that then versus now? because as you said eloquently, you said that, you know, there were political issues that prohunted him from doing some -- prohibited him from doing some things that he is doing now versus then because he wanted a second term. >> guest: right. no, it's a tricky situation, isn't it? it's a kind of catch-22. >> host: it's cyclical, yeah. >> guest: it is that as well. so on the one hand, without being pushed, he ain't gonna say nothing. not just him, that's any president. no president who's occupied that office has ever on their own merits, alone, done the right thing. they've also got to have support, they have to have cries of justice ringing in the streets, echoing in the halls of justice across this land in

order for significant and substantive change to be enacted. so we've got to admit that on the one hand. on the other hand, barack obama is up against it and, therefore, in the first term was a lot more reticent than he is in the second term. and in the second term, he feels a bit freer. he doesn't necessarily have a bull worth moment, but he does have these episodes where he can use the n-word as he did on a podcast, that church sermon -- i can't call it anything else but a sermon -- >> host: it was a sermon, it was a sermon. he did not take a text, but it was a sermon. >> guest: right. the scripture says, and he laid it out. he talked about amazing grace and the themes of our tradition, and he appealed to black prophetic tradition in very specific fashion. i'm saying all that to say, yes, there are differences, he has evolved, but he has evolved with the help of people who hold him accountable. and we have to hold both of those together.

that's why when you ask the question of me, and unapologetically, i'm not a hater of barack obama. i do not believe in that. that, to me, is a waste of time, it is ill-intended and, quite frankly, it disrespects the incredible work that went into the achievement of this first black presidency. however, it is equally problematic for us to pretend there is no flaw, no problem. no president is perfect. so in that case, we have to gently and lovingly be critical of barack obama because he is the president. as my very dear friend, the great historian robin d.g. kelly said, we have to learn to criticize without hating, and we have to learn to love without being silent. and if we can balance those two ambitions, then i think -- and, hopefully, what i did in this book is to criticize without hate and to love without being silent. >> host: i mean, we don't have all the time in the world, and this is just an amazing conversation. you talked about his first trip

to ghana, you talked about the early trip to africa. >> guest: that's right. >> host: that, one -- he went to sub-saharan africa, one country, and then later on he did the africa tour. you talk about shirley she regard -- >> guest: first of all, thank you for saying that, because a lot of people read the introduction, you realize the entire thing. you know how much is packed -- look -- [laughter] you know how much is packed into that book, and i wanted to deliberately address all those issues; the trip to ghana, the first trip to africa, why he didn't go to condition ya, why he did some of the same scolding he did to black america there and why he told turkey and cairo we feel your pain, but when he got to africa, not so much. he says i don't buy into the argument about neo-colonialism. i think africans are responsible for africa. some tough love some would say, again, the chiding, but all of it is there. the notion of race, the notion of identity, all the things he did, what he -- it's all there

to present as clear and as complete a picture of this complicated, brilliant, beautiful but also flawed black man because he's flawed only because all of us are flawed. all of us make mistakes, all of us fail to live up to our ideals and ambitions. and when we say that about this president, black people are hyper-sensitive. and i understand why. we've only had one black president -- >> host: hyper-sensitive about race. >> guest: extremely, extremely so. >> host: particularly now. >> guest: oh, absolutely. don't want to speak about it, try to hide it, try to fend it off. you know, we live in what gore vidal called the united states of amnesia. so -- and i say barbara streisand supplied the theme song. what's too painful to remember, in the words of paul williams, we simply choose to forget. >> host: memories. >> guest: that's right. there it is. you and i are that generation, we know. barbara streisand?

>> host: i'm a little younger, but -- [laughter] i like the old stuff. >> guest: my point is that we live in a nation that tends to refuse to deal with history when it comes to black people. now look, when it's everything else, they love history, this nation. how many books on abraham lincoln, on the founding fathers, the founding brothers, the founding sisters, but when it comes to black people, stop. we don't want five books, been there, done black, let's get over it. that's why this postracial nirvana was an illusion. we don't live in a post-racial nation, neither should we. i don't want white americans to get over my race. i don't want us to transcend race. i want people to transcend what they think about few race and stop the negative, narrow, nefarious beliefs about blackness or brown or white or red or yellow, you know, poor whites and so on. let's get to a point where we appreciate the broad span of our racial and ethnic identities and don't have to subordinate one to

the other. >> host: you brought up something interesting. i talked to wes moore out of baltimore, you know, i said something about we are not a post-racial society, and he said i cannot wait for there to be a post-racist society. >> guest: that's what i say in the book. >> host: right. but then we have a marker, january 20th at noon, 2017 -- >> guest: right. >> host: at 12:01 we will be a post-obama society. >> guest: yeah, that's right. >> host: post-obama is going to be the term now at that time in 2017. what will this country look like post-obama? >> guest: yeah. it's -- look, we're going to miss him, you know? [laughter] no matter what any of us say, the critics say, the supporters say, even david brooks of the new york times said i miss him already. not that i agree with his policies, some of which were wrong and problematic, but it's his decorum, it's his decency, it's the sense of balance he

brings. when we look at the other side of the aisle right now in this rancorous contest, this bitter dispute for the presidency among republicans, when we look at what donald trump is spewing, when we look at what ted cruz is saying and what marco rubio is manipulating and the sometimes-lethal problems of many of the candidates for the presidency, we become immediately and unalterably nostalgic for a figure like a barack obama who had a sense of humor, who could be self-depracating, who understood the nature of the presidency as an office of gravitas and of seriousness despite the fact that he was being assaulted. a white female governor put her finger in his face on the tarmac in arizona, a white congressman -- before a joint meeting of congress in his first few months in office -- called him a liar from charleston, south carolina. was that a coincidence? a daily caller, i think,

reporter on the white house lawn refused to let obama conduct his press conference without interrupting him -- >> host: not a press conference, he was delivering his statement, and he jumped in -- >> guest: before he could even go to the press conference part. so this, it's not merely rudeness. you know, i was on the late show with stephen colbert, and he said are you saying racism is rather just rudeness? no, it's not just rudeness. when we put that together with the fact that they don't believe he's an american citizen, he's not seen as a legitimate authority to occupy the white house, then in aggregate, together, those beliefs amount to a disturbing and appalling racist pall that has been cast across the horizon of this black presidency. and it is to his credit that he has maintained his dignity and his strength in the face of such overwhelming odds. >> host: wow. this has been a dynamic discussion, and the book is powerful on its own. but you added another element to

the book, eric holder. >> guest: oh, yeah. >> host: you secured an interview with eric holder. talk to us what eric holder said about this president and what he did to fulfill this president's mission when it came to race. >> guest: right. and i wanted eric holder to be prominently featured in this book to show i'm trying to be a balanced argument. eric holder is saying, look, if i was the president, i would behave like barack obama, and if barack obama were the attorney general, he would behave like me. rather remarkable statement. everything holder, who's -- eric holder, who's being given credit for occupying high-level political office with one eye kept on the broader landscape of american society and another eye cast upon how that has impacted some of the most vulnerable minorities in this country including african-american people. and he did that with supplying balance in regard to race, and

so many people applauded him. but, you know, eric holder was not taking that bait, so to speak, and said, no, i would be the kind of president he is now, and he would be the kind of attorney general i am now. look, you've got a husband, you're racial capital. you know, if you spend it too much, then the people don't take you seriously. if you're too cheap or sparse with it, then you're not really effective. and he thought that barack obama struck the right kind of balance. i tried to push him on that, because i disagree. i was saying, you know, i don't think he -- i think he husbanded it too well. he might have wifed it as well. [laughter] he might have thrown the children in there as well. >> host: you make me laugh. >> guest: he refused to use it in ways that i think he might have done so earlier and more efficaciously. but the bottom line is that eric holder defends his guy and says that he is creating an atmosphere and setting a pattern and establishing a template that will have significantly positive results on american culture, and

eric holder himself, i think -- as i talk about him -- was a rather remarkable figure who was able to, you know, speak to the interests of african-american people as a black man who was attorney general and at the same time take care of his broader duties to the larger american public. i thought that was exemplary about what any high ranking black political figure should do and how they should comport themselves. >> host: wow. last june, the end of june 2015, that week, the week of the 20th or so, the 22nd or so, that was an amazing week. >> guest: yeah. >> host: in this nation. >> guest: right. >> host: we had that first day, that monday president obama was -- you spoke of it -- in the garage and speaking to that alternative blogger -- >> guest: right, right. >> host: -- in the garage talking, and he said the n-word. and then the next day you had nikki haley talking about bringing down the flag along

with reince priebus, the head of the republican national committee. >> guest: that's right. and lindsey graham. >> host: yes. south carolina, that flag has been brandishing for a long time -- >> guest: right. >> host: -- on taxpayer-funded property. and then at the end of the week you had that funeral, that beautiful funeral. i was in london that whole week promoting my book. >> guest: right. >> host: and i was watching with baited breath. i listened to people, i listened to members of parliament, house of lords in london, talk about what you write in this book, baltimore, like it was their backyard. talk about charleston like it was their backyard, and they were waiting for that moment. >> guest: right. >> host: they were waiting for that sermon, and i was in my hotel room, i thought i was in a black church. and i was screaming. i was, like -- >> guest: yeah. >> host: as a black person, you have to be true to yourself. >> guest: no doubt. >> host: the human side came in. >> guest: yeah. >> host: but as a journalist, i

saw the news in it, i saw the precedence of that. and you write beautifully, and i love the fact that you ended with that sermon. as someone who calls -- you are a minister as well. let me start. when obama, after electrifying productive silence, launched into the first words of "amazing grace," the bishops and ministers behind him leaped to their feet. he turned his head slightly to acknowledge their approval as they chimed in to help him finish the verse. obama stayed mostly on tune, though he fell flat, a flatness that was both the object and vehicle of the blues that a black folk embrace. as obama finished the verse, he spoke again, speaking after singing, especially if that singing already followed speech has been engaging. and the president didn't disappoint. he called out the names of those who died with pinckney that fateful night. i want you to finish that. >> guest: yeah. yeah, he called out their names. he got what they call in the

black church, a kind of tune, a hoop. and he starts naming them, and he says they kept the faith, they experienced that grace. he was at his rhetorical height, the sun lit summit of his majestic black rhetoric, and he was evoking the spirit of the black church in such powerful fashion. caught up in the spirit, those bishops behind him in their royal purple, the first female african-american bishop, were standing with him. and then, you know, when he broke out, after he had broken out in song and stunned people and then went back from singing to speaking again, the hoop in the black community, the tune, that gentle vibrato of the voice, and obama was tuning up, to so to speak. [laughter] and it was one of the most remarkable displays of black signifying that any president has certainly done, and certainly this black president grasped ahold of his

blackness. and i say in this chapter that he felt free enough to be at his blackest when he was at his best. and to have both of those come together is extremely important. >> host: and do you think barack obama is at his best when he feels his blackness? i mean, i'll never forget before he became president when he was running, when he was then-candidate barack obama for president of the united states -- >> guest: right. >> host: -- he had that significant philadelphia speech on race. >> guest: right. >> host: and many people said, oh, i love him. and that's when -- because a lot of african-americans were on the fence. they were like, we know the clintons. >> guest: right. >> host: he's a new guy. >> guest: that's right. >> host: but when he won iowa, people were like, oh, wait a minute, let me take a look. and then south carolina happened, and they said, no, we're going to go his way. and philadelphia clinched it. is that who he intrinsically is to you versus what we see in the oval office? >> guest: sure. i think he's had to modify, mollify, he's had to alter, as

all presidents have to do, let's just be honest. but for him the burden is even more heavy. the situation more precarious. and, yes, i think when he is free to be himself, that self that is embracing of the tremendous traditions that nurtured him, that inspired him, i mean, if you love obama at charleston, you gotta love jeremiah wright. because jeremiah wright is the man who gave him the keys to the kingdom, so to speak. jeremiah wright led him to jesus -- >> host: but jeremiah wright hurt him intrinsically, hurt his heart. it's sacred. >> guest: he hurt him politically as a liability because people exploited jeremiah wright's language when most black people understood it. the reason most people went sigh, yawn, because we hear this every sunday in the black prophetic church. but black people never mistake the rhetoric that jer ya wright has hating america and not loving the country. they see it as a necessary

prophetic argument against american culture. and the tragedy is -- and i know you'll -- the tragedy is this, that people forced barack obama and his pastor apart as opposed to seeing them as part of a larger whole in black religion. >> host: now, as someone who is a product of the black church, who's attended black church all her life -- >> guest: right. >> host: -- when you have a pastor and a parisianer, that -- parishioner, that relationship is sacred. it's private. >> guest: right. >> host: and there's a trust there. but when the pastor goes out and says i'm going to go after you, you're now the symbol of this country, i will be going after you, was that america pulling them apart, or did -- >> guest: well -- >> host: -- reverend wright put a demarcation line between the both of them. >> >> guest: his job as a prophet is to say this, like when nathan went to david and says who -- >> host: we're talking bible now. >> guest: that's right. [laughter] >> host: the switch. >> guest: theologically. yes, in the bible when the

prophet nathan goes to hold david, who is the king of -- the king, accountable, he tells him a story. oh, my god, he says, you were the man, you're the one! the job of the prophet is different from the job of pharoah. jeremiah wright is moses, is a prophet, is jeremiah, isaiah. barack obama is pharoah. that's not a diss on him, that's his job. his job is to govern the country. he cannot be a prophet. so people who were looking for barack obama to be a prophet were misled. it's what philosophers call a category mistake. that ain't his job. his job is to do what he's doing. and jeremiah wright said his job is to do one thing, my job is to do another. the problem is, april, that they drove a wedge between them in a way that was unnecessary because many black ministers have pastored many black political figures in this country. without having that wedge driven

between them. but the stakes were never this high. and barack obama and jeremiah wright met at a fork that divided them forever, unfortunately. as robert frost said, two roads diverged in the yellow wood, and i took the one less traveled by. there was never a road -- the one less traveled by was the presidential road. we got a million prophets, we ain't got but one potential president, and black people were like this, you know, i know you're a prophet, pastor and mama are real close together. don't be talking about my pastor. and obama got away with it because black people read his quest for the presidency as a divinely ordained one. so he usurped the prophetic prerogative of jeremiah wright, and then it was cast upon him. so jeremiah wright, although working for the end result of black political power, was himself disempowered at the very moment when he should have been

riding gunshot with the so-to-speak barack obama. and barack obama, the pharoah figure, now assumed prophetic power. it was a brilliant and ingenious move, shrewd on many ways but also unfortunate because barack obama would not be who he is without jeremiah wright being who he is. >> host: in the time we have remaining, the black presidency: barack obama and the politics of race in america, eerily familiar to another book title, the presidency in black and white. >> guest: right. >> host: but thank you so much for being controversial and always sparking conversation and making us think. that's who you are. >> guest: thank you. >> host: and what is the takeaway from this book for the american public in the few remaining moments we have left? >> guest: people can feel my love for this man, because i do love him as a human being. i see his greatness, i see his remarkable imprint on this culture, but i also have an obligation to lovingly criticize him and to engage him in a conversation. doesn't mean i'm right because i

will, in turn, be criticized myself. that's the back and forth of what it means to engage in conversation. i'm a teacher, i'm a professor, that's my job. but at the ultimate end of the road, so to speak, i want people to see i gave him a fair shake, i tried to understand what he was working against, i tried to understand what his goals and objectives were and the things he did that were great and the things he did that were not so great. and in the aggregate and in cumulative impact, this book is a measure of one of the most extraordinary figures that has ever darkened the halls of american politics. >> host: author michael eric dyson, the black presidency: barack obama and the politics of race in america." thank you, michael. >> guest: thank you so much. ♪ ♪ >> when itune into it on the weekends, usually it's authors sharing their new releases. >> watching the nonfiction

authors on booktv is the best television for serious readers. >> on c-span they can have a longer conversation and delve into their subjects. >> booktv weekends, they bring you author after author after author that spotlight the work of fascinating people. >> i love booktv, and i'm a c-span fan. >> here's a look at some of the current best selling nonfiction books according to "the new york times." topping the list, the late neurosurgeon paul -- [inaudible] recounts facing mentality in his memoir, when brent becomes air. -- breath becomes air. taan has city coats looks at the current state of black america in "between the world and me." up next, "dark money" in which jane mayer reports on how big money has altered the political system. michael hayden recalls the decisions he made as director of the nsa and cia following the

events of september 11th. "after words" programs respectively which you can watch on our web site. our look at the best selling nonfiction books according to "the new york times" continues now with theoretical physicist carlo rovelli's overview of modern physics in seven brief lessons on physics. and in eviction, matthew desmond, recent recipient of a mac arthur foundation genius grant, explores the rise of help for low income families. ..

sure i peered how big is the u.s. senate? and what do we mean by on? >> it is $14 trillion is made in terms of publicly held debt about 70% of gdp. so that is giving you some respect is. it tells me that if an unprecedented amount, now who is it 02 i would say most of it is owed to other americans. sometimes you can think about it as we are borrowing from