thank you so much. when i first came up here, fill this out over there. ..

einstein >> for a complete television schedule booktv.org. booktv, 48 hours of non-fiction books and authors. television for serious readers. >> this weekend, we bring you the 22nd annual virginia festival of the book. we kick off with bruce hillman. author of "the man who stalked einstein" followed by panels on u.s. naval history, the civil war, and astronomy. here is mr. hillman on the life of nazi scientist phillipp lenard.

>> i welcome, evered, and thank you. this broadcast will be available online at charlottesville's website and when we get to the q&a later, i will call on you and, please, wait for the mike to be handed to you. our friends at booktv are recording us to be broadcast at a later date. remember the festival is free to

attend but not free to put on so please feel free to donate what you can. please fill out the paper evaluations before you leave or complete them online. do support festival authors and our local booksellers by purchasing a book today and our author will be available were a book signing after the program. our program this morning is titled modern science, obsection, paranoia and einstein. bruce hillman has published a number of short stories, journal articles, and a book on medical imaging for lay people. let's welcome bruce hillman. [applause] >> thanks. great to be here.

>> with this whole background how is it you are not a creative non-fiction writer? >> if you look at the program i look different than the average first time writer. i'm a little older and hopefully i learned something in the 68 years i have been around. i owe my writing career to someone who is an associate dean at the university of virginia medical school. a woman named sharon hoser. i thought she might be here today but she is elsewhere. sharon ran a two-hour writing class for physicians in their spare time. i went and at the end there was an exercise where they gave a sentence and all of us were supposed to write a paragraph or

two of a story based on the sentence. i did that, turned it in, and a week later i got a call from sharon and she said really liked your paragraph. i have been running a critique group of about six or seven women here in town and we need a man. she wanted to know whether i wanted to try out. i wrote a story, remember the story still -- it was called the lemon. they took me in. i was rough but they work on it and made me enjoy creative writing again but i learned so much about what better writing was than i could have originally done. i owe this to them. they still meet. i met with them a couple days

ago. this book -- why creative non-fiction? i was doing lecturing out in australia and it turns out it is cheaper -- australia is about the most expensive trip you can take from the east coast of the united states but it is cheaper if you just keep going. my wife and i out went to perth and i lectured a little, started writing a novel and i wrote it and finished it just about after the 28 days of going around the world finished. i haven't found a publisher for that. it is a medical murder mystery taking place out in arizona where i lived. i went to princeton for undergrad and somebody was

writing my website, and i asked for his advice and he referred me to writer in tucson and she said i don't do fiction anymore but if you get a non-fiction idea i would love to see it. i went to cambridge, england which is a long trip and i could not go just for a lecture and come back. so i got on a train and went to scotland, got off the train and played a famous golf course, and they hooked me up with a couple canadians who told me a story about their father who was a top ranking general in the canadian army during world war ii and attached to nuclear testing in new mexico. he had been very fit and led a dprat life but at age 70 he caught a severe neuro disease

and died within a year. i asked them a few question and they said protection? and they said our dad said there was no protection. a chase lounge, dark glasses and said watch this. i thought this might be an interesting thing to write about and started researching it. it shows you how luck can come into play in any phase in life certainly in science which we might get into later on. i was going through stuff related to nuclear testing and i have no idea why it was there but there was an article from 1946, crumpled yellow pages, and read it. it was about a man named phillipp lenard -- an american colonel. there is sharon. i just mentioned you. at any rate, there was this man phillipp lenard, he had been

captured by the allies and someone who was going to be a neurologist asked to interview him because of his relationship with the man who discovered the x ray. this man said in reality i am the true mother of the x-ray. this man had paranoid delusions and extreme narcissistic behavior. he was so evil. i called the agent and wrote up this two-pager and she went it to publishers and said nobody has heard of renton. isn't that an amazing thing? talk about literacy. so i did a little more research and found that renton was a

sidelight. the guy he really had it out for for many years had been albert einstein. i called her back and said anyone heard of einstein? there were a couple publishers who bid on it in the end and i wrote the book. >> would you like to give us a taste? >> all right. let me read a little from chapter one. the man's cry found an echo in a thousand others on the clear cool evening of may 11th, 1933 the crowd repeated the familiar nazi greeting as ranks of university students marched past encouraging spectators into the vast expanse of berlin's opera square. the students surrounded the nazi who set and stoked an inferno earlier in the evening. sparks shot into the night with

explosive barks drowned out by the cheers of 40,000 onlookers. young faces reflected the heat of the bon fire and their excitement. at a signal the front row of the students moved forward, arms full of books, and tossed them into the flames. they gave way to the students behind them reciting the prescribed verses each committed to memory against class warfare and materialism. for the people in the community, against decadence, were decency and family custom and government. the ritual was repeated until the flames had consumed 25,000 books. among the authors who had been tucked from the library earlier in the day were socialist like carl max, social activist like helen keller, and humanist.

organizers removed every copy of the works of a number of jewish scientists. their discovries helped them reach world remnition but under the new nazi regime they had fallen out of favor. as the blaze settled to embers a lone figured went up several steps, the chief of nazi propaganda, the minister, surveyed his audience. his sweating face gleamed in the shining light. when he sensed the crowd's anticipation grow as hot as it could bear he began to speak. the age of jewish intellectualism is ending and the road is clear for the german character. in the past 14 years, you have been forced into silent shame to

suffer humilitations of the november republic. the libraries became filled with trash and filth from jewish literatures writers. you do well in the midnight hours to assign the unclean spirit of the past to the flames. let this be on oath to many flames, hail to the reich, and the nation, and our leader adolf hitler. he shoot the absolute, fingers straight, as the deafening applause settled down he began to sing the anthem of the nazi party. the tune was picked up by other students and soon the surrounding thousands and the celebration was just beginning and it could continue long into the night. >> tell us a little bit more about phillipp lenard. >> yeah.

has anybody here heard of phillipp lenard? there is a gentlemen. extraordinary. hardly anybody has heard of this man despite the fact he was a nobel peace prize winner for physics in 1905. he was an arch experimentalist. he was very famous. he made a modification of the ray tube that was used perhaps that night that allow him to know about the x-ray. but he had some problems. this lenard fellow. einstein at one point talks to his students about how twisted lenard seemed to him. he had a severe nar na narcissistic peterson but everything started out right.

einstein was 17 years his senior. epa einstein had done with some work the photo electric effect which lenard first described. einstein's law of the photo electric effect is what he was awarded the nobel peace prize for. that began to degenerate first because of one of lenard's students who started out thinking he was quite the fellope but over time he realized he had odd quirks. he was a habitually difficult person who made students work on things they didn't believe in. over time, things between einstein and lenard desinigrated.

as i said, lenard was an arch experimentalist and einstein was the best known every theortician. lenard came to believe physics was a hoax and in fact a jewish hoax and something that had no rounding in real life. he thought perhaps the jews who were the foremost in the field didn't intend it to be true but use it to get jobs or fame. we can stop there if you have other questions? >> no, go ahead. >> things fell apart after the first world war when the treaty of versailles was formed and

germany was penalized for, in the belief of the allies, starting the war. the treaty of versailles called for a big penalty. it went from four to the dollar to over a billion marks to thedler and people were suffering. lenard had terrible finance issues and his son died during the war. he was a sickly child and it was a terrible disappointment to lenard who was an arch nationalist because his son was not able to participate in the war but died during it because of a kidney disease.

lenard was easy pickings for the extreme right-wingers and the right-wingers believed the jews were at fault and that the juz controlled the international money market and lenard picked up on this as well. over time what became a concern about science became very personal. lenard personalized his anger at the jews in the form of einstein. einstein was the jew he knew, the jew who was becoming very poplar in germany, envy was an important factor, but things broke down between them and there was no correspondence following the last letter sent prior to the war. >> was einstein the first scientist who was what we would

call today a rock scientist? >> i mentioned lenard won the noe nobel peace prize prize in 1905 and that wasn't a bad year for einstein either. it is known as his miracle year. this clerk who had a ph.d but first-degree was to be able to teach physics in mathematics. he earned his ph.d in 1905 after some difficulties but out of nowhere he published these five remarkable papers. the law of the photo electric effect. he explained brown in foundation which founded colloidal chemistry. and he talked about the relationship between time and space and the special theory of relati relativety. overnight he climbed the ladder.

he started to move around and went to prague and he was recruited to be the head of the kaiser institute in berlin and professor at berlin university and with a lot of other perks others didn't. lenard hated this. when asked to allow him into the kaiser society, he knew lenard might be a problem here, the response was simply because a goat resides in a stable doesn't make him a thoroughbred race horse. in 1919, important things happen. einstein had finished working on

his general theory of reltivity, delivered a series of lectures that were quite convincing and germans were coming to this jewish man's side. the term for people like einstein is he is ungerman. in 1915 he gave these lectures, wrote the general theory and wrote a book that you and i can read. that i actually read in fact called "the theory of r relativity" and he predicted that light would bend by gravity. light from distant stars would bend and arrive at a different point than when they were not aligned with our sun. he also predicted how the course

of mercury would alter from kepler's version. he originally described the planets going around the sun but it was supposed to be even where every point the closest to the sun appeared that way. but mercury was different and he talk about how that occurred. and he predicted a shift in the light spectrum. the light of the sun versus the way the light earrives on earth. in 1919 that came true. this gentlemen, what do you do for a living? there you go. >> retired engineer. >> good. others know as well. there was an eclipse of the sun in 1919.

engla england, the royal society, sent parties to brazil and they validated the sun did bend light from stars that were adjacent to it. the crowds went wild. the newspapers said everything had been turned on its head. old newtonian physics didn't hold and einstein was a rising star. overnight he became famous and lenard hated this. he was an arch newtonian and wasn't about to give up on his german stars. here is this man getting much more publicity than he thought, publicity he was due, of course. and he posted this was unworthy of people in science.

so that was added to all of the other of einstein's failings plus the fact he was growing increasingly radical and anti symmetic. >> continuing the background here what is the working society of german scientist? >> this was the reaction of lenard and maybe 10-12 other german scientists. they were going to take down einstein and show him for a fraud and the theory of relativity as false. lenard trying to stay in the background, talking to the man who they hired to take on this task a man named paul violin who called himself an engineer but couldn't produce any credentials -- no offense, sir.

he was more of a crowd rouser. he developed 20 lectures, two per night, held over 20 nights in a large hall over a period of a month of two. it was called the working society -- i cannot remember exactly but the working society of german scientist for the purity of science. the notion was these lectures would take down einstein and that would be that. the very first pair of lectures the nazi's surrounded the hall, they were selling their pamphlets and pens and so forth and einstein attended, too. he sat up in the crowd and listened to this. his step-daughter margo beside him and made fun of it, made light of it, made jokes about

what was going on as it started and they continued to bring out another scientist. he wasn't as amused as he appeared. he thought about it for a few days and wrote an article on what he called scientist incorporated. he published it in one of the german dailys. the one that happened to be jewish owned. it raised an enormous fuss because not only did he pick on the people who publically participated and were scheduled to participate he picked on lenard and said lenard is behind this with no real proof to the effect. it raised an enormous ruckus. lenard accused einstein of slander. and eventually einstein recanted but only through friends's

voices and other's voices. he didn't recant to a large extent. within a month and a half of that, the german scientist, the physics, chemist, mathematicians, were getting together for their first meeting tfr after the first world war. it was an especially important meeting because the german scientist were banned from all of the european meetings. there were enormous hard feelings they backed certain episodes that occurred in the first world war. so this meeting was really all they had. einstein threw out a challenge. he said he was willing to debate anyone who felt the theory of relativity was false and of course nobody came forward immediately but there was plotting in the background and lenard was the ring leader. they were originally going to meet in frankfurt but there was a great deal of political unrest

there so they bet in a tiny bath town. this went on for three our or four days and it was very calm. on the final day, the powers at be scheduled the debate of einstein versus everybody else. there were two burly guys with the physics and the chemist were

the special people who got in first and then anybody from the media or what else and paul vio lin was there. it quickly turned to name calling between lenard and einstein. first some science, then degeneration of name calling, finally two children bickering over a toy is how i would describe it. at the end, nothing was settled, at the end, einstein chased after lenard, he said it was too late, and they never spoke personally every again. it would have been fine and maybe the thing would have been buried under but from that moment on the anti-simetic quotes were enough. >> didn't einstein's personal life factor into criticism of this? >> lenard treated people poorly but some were treated very poorly. einstein was an extroidinary wit. when the solar eclipse hoe showed him to be right once at least. he was asked by a newspaper when you explain what relativity is about. and he said if you are with a pretty girl an hour seems like a second. but if you are sitting on a hot

sexist way. he once referred to american husbands as the lap dogs of their wives and referred to marriage as an unsuccessful attempt to turn an incident into a permanent relationship. he cheated on his first wife. he also cheated on his second wife. and he told them about it. einstein's approach to r relativity was compared to moralism and that didn't sit well. >> one had nothing to do with the other. but the anti-einstein forces took advantage of the relattivismt that was occurring in the german society. post world war one was held up during the day but at night it was like the world was about it end and maybe it was. relativism had nothing to do with relativity but they were trying to take einstein down.

i remember one quote where lenard compared einstein and by einstein he meant all of the theorist to the earlier 20th century painters like the picaspica picas picassos saying they could not paint so they made us something we could paint and einstein and his group don't understand science so they made up something they could live with. it was that kind of bickering. einstein tried to stay out of it. he was poplar in society. what took him down was the hammeri hammering way of the forces. he was different than the rest of the german scientists. they german scientist were strongly nationalistic following the war.

einstein was an internationalist. he once called the human of humanity. he was a pacifist and very much against the rearming of germany. he slowly but surely public opinion began it turn on him. >> lenard was supported at the highest levels of the nazi regime. >> yes. >> even to being able to met with hitler on one or more occasions. why were these issues of science so important to the nazi's? >> well it meshed so well with their philosophy: their broader philosophy. if you can read pieces of "mind comp" which is very hard to read it matches einstein's idea of culture and science in germany,

excuse me a moment, i have to tell you i forgot to take some medication. i have to do it. i am trying to work it out of my pocket while i continue talking. i am going to stand up for a second if you don't mind. c-span, i don't know about this. we didn't work this out ahead of time. at any rate, lenard developed a philosophy he called aryan physics. in 1933, just about the time hitler was consolidating his power and was appointed chancellor the year before the burning of the reich occurred earlier on and he managed to get the parliament to expand itself. the book goes into detail why he did that. it all fit so well with the

hitler philosophy. this idea poised there were differences in the way different people thought about science. and that they it was related to their ethnicity and their nationalism and that really all great physics derived from, you guessed it, aryan physics. excuse me a moment. he said negro physics isn't known yet. arabian physics used to be important but that was centuries ago. and finally he got to jewish physics and decided it was bad

for physics and the culture of germany because einstein made sense to younger people, a younger physic students who could understand. lenard didn't have it mathematical background, didn't want it and thought it was a hoax. but what really got him wasn't just that einstein was getting more and more prominent and more and more people were accepting his notion of physics but it was the german, his people, coming over to einstein's side. he hooked his book, the introduction to which was again a rambling that is almost unreadable cursing of jews and theoreticle physic and three other volumes that were a recounting of the lectures he had given. he was a fabulous physics electr lecturer by all accounts.

einstein receive a letter bum from one of his wifes who saw him before he even knew about him regarding what a great lecturer he was. so in the later years he became identical to hitler and the nazis. >> having thought about this a lot, is there any validity to the concept that different ethnic groups have different scientific mindsets? >> i think it is unquestionable when you talk about subjects like language or culture that there are enormous differences. not to say one is better than the other, which of course he did. but in science i like to thing

think of science as something that is more international. international in the sense that, and this is an example for instance for, let's say, in germany somebody comes with a new experimental finding and that finding is sent by journals, even then, journals and speaking engagements around the world. in japan, someone shows up and presents this material and the japanese who have been working very hard on something, but to no avail, plug in this new piece of information, and suddenly the experiment works and we all learn a little more about how the universe operates. do i think it is possible there are cultural influences in science? i guess i do. but much less so than they are in cultural subjects. that was quite the opposite of what lenard told us.

>> so lenard and various colleagues came to a position of power and that and just the general situation with the jews in germany forced a lot of scientist out and that created a shift in the world's balance of scientific intellect away from germany to its enemies. >> that is the subtitle. lenard did have hitler's ear. he was quite advanced in age but had the foresight to take on a younge

younger person. he returned his career when he complained he lost a job. he wrote a long diatribe that said this physicist throughout yup. suddenly when the nazi's came to power stark was in because he had been helping lenard all along. he had been an a supporter to lenard hfs claim to the disclofsh -- discovery of the x-ray. they did keep einstein from finally returning to germany and probably saved his life. stark and lenard were suddenly poplar with the nazis and they were empowered.

stark had two powerful positions in german sciences and lenard had no pretension to such positions he just wanted to ban einstein. when the law for the reconstruction of the german civil service came about they pounced. that was the law that said basically if you were jewish, this is really cutting through a lot to get to the bottom line, but if you were jewish or a communist you could not work in the german civil service. and you know who are civil servetants? -- servants? all of the professors at the universities.

i will read a page here. at 10:45 on may 6th, 1933, the driver who was the most advanced revered helped the german physicist from the car. despite a cold gusting wind tickling his memory of what had been a harsh memory, he stood moti motionless for a moment soaking in the surrounding. he once thought the sharmonious example was beautiful but no longer the case since the wreck of the south wing and the stain that was in possible to ignore. for better or worse, change was inevitable. as president of the most highest

position he was going to meet hitler on plans for the new society. he made certain to arrive at the chancellor's office a few minutes early so he could settle his nerves and think about several issues that had risen since hitler took office. his concern was the 1933 law that mandated non aryan civil servants. the word non-aryan meant jewish. since all professors were civil servants the law threatened employment for all jewish frofessors. it would result in many of germany's elite scientist and professors. this was his only chance to reason with hitler.

he would need to keep his wit if he had any chance of getting through. as a secretary ushered him to hitler's office he considers how he might address the concerns in a way that hitler would understand. he decided to use as an example his jewish colleague fritz hopper. anybody know about him? good. the nobel lorerate resigned from the new law. he produced poisonous gases during the great war without which germany would have last. hitler was on the alert immediately. i have nothing against jews but all jews are the communist and it is thlatter who are my enemies. it is against them my fight is directed. there are different types of

jews both the worthy and the worthless kind and suggested a distinction should be made. that is not right. a jew is a new hitler said. all jews stick like burrs and when there is a jew all kinds of jews gather. it should have been the duty of the jews to draw the dividing line between the various types. they didn't do this and that is why i must act equally among all jews. he said forcing jews to immigrate would be equivalent lnt to mutilating ourselves because we need their work and their effort will benefit the foreign countries. the chancellor ignored the comment and after an uncomfortable minute hitler said people say i suffer from nervous disability. this is slander.

i have nerves of steal. to prove how sturdy he was he banged his wrist on his knee. stalk was left with nothing to do but stay silent. he is right. roughly 2,000 jewish scientist, chemist, mathematicians, were forced out of their jobs and that included 14 nobel prize winners. the ones that could get out all went to places like the united states, england, and russia. all enemies of germany in the second world war and had a very great affect. >> lots of loathing politics ego there. but you never had that in

science since. >> exactly. >> this is why i write this kind of work and maybe you are the exception and you are saying you are the exception. maybe you can pick up a science book and read it but very few people want to to that anymore. i see this work, putting science in the context of an interesting, instructive story as a way to get people to be interested in learning science. and has it happened again? well there is enormous, of course people are familiar with the line that academic politics are the most vicious because there is so little at stake? it goes on and on. my next book, one i hope will be out this fall, sort of in the proof stage right now, goes into the many of the same themes about academic politics and how they bring down even very talented individuals. so no it is nothing novel just

on a grander scale. >> you have had some reactions to this book that really ballster your reading about science. i know you have one you want to share >> amazingly this came yesterday. i hope i can find it quickly on my cellphone. yeah. i have some hobbies in addition to writing one of which is playing golf. i play in in durham or used to. i live in wake forest, north carolina now. one of my playing partners bought a book. this is why nobody can live off this is because they keep lending it out. you cannot live on the income people are not buying it. at any rate, one friend they gave it to wrote book to say the following: thank you so much for sharing the einstein book.

i am hoping i can hold on to it a bit longer for richard, her husband, to read it to. richard's mother earned her degree under white jews and that was people who were not jewish but sympathized with theoretical physics. by some error, she and edward keller, father of the hydrogen bomb, were assigned the same dissertation topic to solve. i have never seen dr. strangelove, but i am hoping to stream it and talks about how keller is thought to be the model for the mad scientist in that movie. when richard's parents immigrated to the united states in 1937 she had a job at duke

who had been her lab instructor. she later married james franc and many recognize that name of the manhattan project and the franc report which recommended not dropping the atomic bomb. richard's parents left durham because his father was unable to get a medical license in north carolina. that is a separate story how the use treated immigrant jews and whether they allowed them to immigrate even. his mom died when he was 16 and you would think she was happy. i am not sure. unless she thought see saw too much from the war and wanted to hide away. you can never guess how exciting bruce's book was to us. out of nowhere and this is why i write and i suspect most people write and publish is because you

don't know who is out there and occasionally you can change thought or change lives. this was just wonderful to receive. so thank you for allowing me to read that. >> thanks. we have time for questions from the audience. if there are any, please raise your hand, i will call on you and wait for your volunteer with the mike. this gentlemen over here. >> can you talk a little bit about the research process you went through? do you speak german? did you travel to germany? [speaking in german] >> j speak a little german but many of einstein's papers have been translated. about half of them. an enormous international project to do. but if you look at the book's cover and you can tell a lot by a cover sometimes there are two german co-authors. one is a radiologist in munich

and her husband who was a historian but now in business. they are good friends. he w-- she was a fellow for me for two months and we have been friends ever since so they did translating and editing and a lot of other things. >> anybody else? this lady over here. wait for the mike, please. >> could you tell us a little bit about renton and lenard? >> yeah. that is a really interesting story. chapter six in the book. what happens was lenard, as i mentioned, a younger man than renton was working in the same area and he had certainly seen sign

signs of the x-ray but like so many people in science they saw what they expected to see. they didn't take, and this is a big theme in the next book called "the plague on all of houses" everybody sees what they expect except somebody who sees something knew and didn't make that discovery. so when they did see and recognize it wasn't the raise making the board light up he missed an enormous opportunity and was very resentful. when he son the nobel peace prize in 1905, his is lenard. renton won the first won which he thought was very unfair. when lenard won in 1905 he took down renton hard saying he is

not the man who should be credited with the discovery of the x-ray and it was him. during the last time, renton ordered all of his papers be burned except a letter he received from lenard many years later crediting him with the power of the x-ray. when the nazis came to power the folks photo copied it and had many copies spread around so lenard would never have the sole copy of that. that is a great story, too, with one of my favorite chapters in the book. >> other questions? this is a fascinating book. thank you. >> i don't believe in comparisons but it makes me very

concerned when there is a distrust of science by a society and a slander of it and it seems currently in our country certain people say there is a real america and another america and that who would want a harvard professor helping them if their car broke down -- >> i no idea what you are talking about. >> and that global warming is climate change is a hoax because it feeds so many saleries people are saying. what can we help do to support our science and intellectual community? >> first, you can become scientific literary yourself. the level of literacy in this

country is poor and scientific literacy is worse than that. before you can debate or challenge the naysayers you have understand a little of the science yourself or understand at a level where you can communicate and work with others who also can -- who think similarly and can communicate it as well. i think that is the biggest leap to be perfectly honest in combating so that ordinary folk like you and me, we can understand and combat it. >> good. >> einstein is rightly highly regarded for this theoretical contributions but grew up in a

family of what we would probably call electrical engineers. they produced power, they made motors. >> yup. >> and he probably did well as a patent clerk because he understood the practical aspects of the technology of that age. did this facet of his background enter into this interactions with the rest of the community? >> i have no doubt it did. but i think really the patent clerk -- he was a patent clerk because he could not get a job at a university even though it would pay less. he was married by that time and they had had a girl actually but nobody knows what happened to her, whether she died young, she was born of out wedlock back in

serbia so nobody knew about her except it was found in one of einstein's letters many years after his death. his family is another story. they left germany and went to italy and formed an engineering firm that was fairly successful for a while. einstein gave up his german citizenship and finished high school in switzerland and got all of his education there. he was never a student of engineering but a student of teaching math and physics. so was maric but she got her degree to finish completely. thank you very much. i have enjoyed this. >> thanks to bruce hillman.

thank you for coming as well. please complete the evaluation forms as opposed to a certain university you have heard of there is no pressure to be nice on the evaluation form. i wasn't talking about the uva. you have an opportunity to buy a book and have it signed and meet our author. thanks again. ...

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please join me in incoming charlie niemeyer. [applause] >> to keep us on track i'll get right to it there are few places in america more affected by warfare an the chesapeake bay during the war of 1812. one of the last places where a foreign invader, not counting the civil war, had actually laid a pretty heavy hand on americans and american wherewithal and buildings and that happened in chesapeake. why did it happen during the war of 1812? and why did the government let it happen? what the madisoned a -- was to default to the -- the issue that got abuse the war in the first place dish love these cartoons from his time. always pretty and stuff. free trade and sailor's rights. if you see that moniker on

pamphlets on publics, wasn't anything about anything else but the fact that enut was feeling the pressure of napoleonic wars between france and at the britain and the british clamping down on the americans' able to be neutral traders. this a man being -- you see his wife kneeling, begging for his release, and other guys willingly taking the king's shilling to be in the royal navy. to be in the royal navy was bad. almost a virtual death sentence. most sailors didn't see their 30th birthday and didn't die from combat action. died from disease on shiftboard

action, falling from the rigging or hit bay block and tack until the head or moving that nature, and they would pass away and be buried at sea and never heard from again. so free trade and sailor rights is the theme the united states used to go to war against great britain in 1812. this is a great cartoon. i love it because you can see the devil off to the right there, and dancing around, and madison is complaining to napoleon who has his harm in -- 'tis you, that got me into this mess, and nap pollonning says, not worry, the devil will help us. but my favorite the angel gabe gabriel blowing the horn. and the united states took on a super power and they were saying now that you have us aroused, stand by.

there were problems from the beginning because the united states of america, in 1812, was very similar politically to what we kind of have today, which is a very split country. they had the federalist opposing madison's republicans and when madison went to wore it was seen as his war or a republican war, and this is a cartoon done of a riot that took place and a anybody of gentlemen from says problems in baltimore are the montgomery yack wore dance and they're holding hatchets in their hand, dancing in a surge like a -- circle while others plot the downfall of the government. so, riot that occurs in baltimore right after the war began is going to set the stage and the tone for the war in the cheese -- chesapeake. we -- we had the uss constitutin

versus other few others. a three frigate victory that occurred that were significant. the british royal memory could not remember losing a ship-to-ship engagement. but once they lost the frigates the british decide to come to the chesapeake in full force to drive the u.s. navy and other sailing vessels off the seas. what is their strategy in 1813? they're going to break into the behave with an amphibious task force, and this is significant because we don't have a navy per se. we have a single frigate guarding the chesapeake bay, the uss constitution, and it is blockaded in norfolk, so british decide to conduct raids up the length and breadth of the back in a billant maneuver of using the sea an avenue of porch.

the second benefit is they get to kill off the american privateer fleet, caughts the americans, their word to feel the hard hard of war. they wanted to change the venue of fighting from the canadian frontier to the american middle stage conduct a punitive campaign, meaning if they were able to get their hands on any sort of american military stores or even if they don't they can could raid towns and villages and burn them to at the grounds, which they do. sack the tajer towns of for no, annapolis, and baltimore -- norfolk, and annapolis and baltimore. here's he other side. a modern day shot of the pride of baltimore, the usschaucier and the other vessel is the -- these two ship replicas still

exist today and will be re-enacting a battle in a few weeks. this is the guy leading the attack, named sir john warren, and he is at years old, has some -- 59 years old, form minister to russia, and now comes to the united states and is told to end the war quickly as you can. given the charge of the north american station and is going to break into the chesapeake in order to make the madison administration realize they cannot continue the war and risk the loss of these large cities that are very valuable to the cause. here's the second in command. this made things tough for the, americans. rear admiral sir george coburn. and so he is portrayed her and you can see buildings on fire in the background. that's supposed to represent the washington, dc city itself being

burned to the ground by cockburn. upper bay raids are nsay and tough and demonstrate what i called the mod does on plan die for the conduct of the campaign. they're going 0 attack any towns that have the temerity to stand up to british landing parties. so what they're going to do is the militia shows up and fires back they have the right to burn towns to the ground and that do that to two towns including george town and fred ricktown. owl three towns sacked and damaged. the active on the lower bay meets with less discuss but they're moving up and down. this approach freezes the militia in place. every time the british make a landing, blue jackets outnumber the local ma -- militias. and there was a statement made

by one british commander and one ised and who he facing in the next town, he said it's mostly militia, and he said i don't care if it rains militia. so whether or not he said that or not is beside the point. their attitude towards the militiaas low but the militia was outnumbered and the british royal marines and blue jackets would get there and new never knew where they would end up next. so these are the sorts of problem the militia had but cockburn understand how warfare was supposed to work and used it to great effect. here's one town getting burned to the ground. they're raiding baby cribs and throwing out blankets blankets d burning things. and the town loses 60% of the town, burned to the ground and

end up in ashes. norfolk is the big price in the 1813 campaign and the send the 102nd regiment, the new souther wales corps. that's really australia, and if australia was the penal colony for great britain -- awe then guys court-martials, gotten in trouble, were put in the regiment so they'll be tough to happen that expose guys do a good number on the stiff of hampton, virginia, burning it to the ground and mitting a number of -- committing atrocities. the americans win a close engagement and preserve nor fork for the american cause and also preserve the constellation, the sailors and marines play a key roll in the defense of the island and the british are defeated.

there's the map itself. there's only one last hope, though, once the british do continue their raids up and down the chesapeake, and this guy, joshua barney, is the last best hope. a former revolutionary war commander, fearless, tower fighter. he served for a brief time in trench navy while the french war fighting the quasi-war against the united states, but nonetheless he gets out the the french navy. he did what john paul jones did, serve his services to the next higher bed better and he said the best way to take the british on is not build ships. he decided to build a flow flotilla and they can move in inlets and they're not dependent on win pour so they can do a swarm attack on the british vessels in the shallow waters,

and he will hire flotillamen. an african-american citizen, named charles ball, and they were neither army nor navy. they were their own spree separate service and the flotilla was the way to stop the british raiding capacity, and at first the british take notice. they're going to focus on barney and his flotilla for the next six to 12 months of the two-year campaign. they did some other experiments in how to defend the bay and this is a british cartoon, the stuff out of the fishes mouth is junk, a skeleton, scissors, ball and chain, anything they can stick in there but a floating mine, and the idea was a guy was going to float one up against a british man of war that was stationary and set it off and almost pulled it off. he pots a 74-gun vessel, and

instincts inon it in the middle of the night, lets ther to speed go go. unfortunately it detonates ten feet too son and just sends a huge column of water over the deck and the torpedo is a failure so the british aren't impressed but there is a future as we'll find out. warren is relieved from the 1814 campaign and replaced by this guy, vice admiral alexander cochran. he will keep cocdkburn in as his second in command, and they utilize his advice to great effect. the idea is that we have -- the british are saying they have to basically embarrass the mad sisson administration so once the kill the flotilla they will take washington, dc and baltimore from the rear. he wants to liberate slaves,

going to create a corps of liberated slaves called colonial marines, and their objective was talked's as rhode island, but cockburn convinces cochran to stick around, and they wanted baltimore. so, these are the colonial marines. southern maryland raids. and they decide to go after barney's flotilla and fight in st. hours career, and bashey gets away by driving off the british blockading forces in a night engagement just at the head of st. leonard's creek but only gets a temporary retrieve. allows barney to escape the smaller shriek get up the larger pawtuxet river. so, as a result this three-pronged attack is going do work out really well for

cochran. he is going to kill barney's fleet, attack the upper bay with a squadron of british ships, under sir peter parker no relation to spider-man. and that's going land in maryland. kill bashey and go up the potomac river and attack alex san dry gentleman and virginia. then they wreck barney's flow till to and they go to bladensburg. with four regiments of british troops, running into a maryland militia and the u.s. army but barney and u.s. army fore are utilized in a third line a mile and a half back from the

crossing point but it is a poorly planned operation from start to finish and once the british dispose of the americans, the way to washington, is washington, dc is open and they march into washington, dc and burn the public buildings. so, i always say what happened in washington, dc is they burned the capitol, they burned the -- actually they don't -- the americans burn in the navy regards. there was frigate almost ready to be launched and is burned to its hull. the burned the white house and few homes where sharpshooters were shooting at british, and american militiaman tried to assassinate the commanding general of the british forces by shooting from the win deof the home of the secretary of the treasury so his home went up to the torch as well.

within 25 hours to the british are out of town. the amazing part is remarkable little damage is done to the private sector at all. so, the third body that went up the river, under james gordon. we think they patterned the character and patrick o'bryan's sailing series master and commander, they think he is the real mast her and commander and he literally takes alexandria without firing a shot and gets away scot-free. the british now move on baltimore. they're going to basically land on the eastern side of the city and move up their naval forces a place within two miles of their main fortification, fort mchenry, which guards the entrance to the harbor and the -- they're going to fight a large reconnaissance force commanded by john industry. the british are going to drive

the americans off with heavy casualties to their own forces and they believe this might possibly be the american main effort. when they break through and look up on the hill and see 15,000 americans with cannon and dug-in positions and rifle pits the british commander on the ground, who is now a colonel, since ross was shot by a sharpshooter in this badle. the colonel says there's no way we can take this town unless the navy breaks into the fort. so the bomb board fort mchenry for 24 hours, and this guy is killed at north point. he was from northern island. i visited his home last summer. he was a well-known commanding officer and a professional soldier when he got killed. shot through the chest and died. john rogers, united states navy is going to guard modern day

patterson park anding this is the guy defending the fort. from the armistad family. does a great job of defending the fort. unfortunately the fortes out of range they have bomb ships that can flow a 200-pound carcass as they called the shells in those days, into the fort without getting hit back, so for 24 hours he has to take and it remarkly only loses four casualties when a round hits a gun that soldiers are standing by. general samuel smith will be the commanding general in charge and he is good because during the american revolution he garolded another fort, in philadelphia, the 24-year-old lieutenant colonel so he knows his business

and does quite well at fort mchenry and here's the fort itself. a lot of people don't understand that the fort itself does not happen a bomb proof magazine, only armisstead new that it was not protected. he rolls out all the powder behind the fort and spreads it out so if a barrel goes up, only destroys that. and of course the end of the campaign, the americans withstand the bombardment, and the next morning at 7:00 a.m., the flag is still there, francis scott key, writes it down, and composes the star spangled banner on the spot. sitting in the harbor negotiating release of american prisoners, and as a result we have this wonderful national anthem, and it's a remarkable song and he did it with really little changes to the words and puts it to a tune that is hardly anyone can sing. so, that's all i have.

thank you very much. [applause] >> our next panelist is author of a confederate biography. the cruise of the css shenandoah. he graduated from the u.s. naval academy, served 20 yours as navy surface warfare officer on oceans. build along lifetime of naval study and history he lives in -- join me in welcoming dwight hughes. [applause] >> thank you very much. raf feel sams former captain of the css bam introduces his memoirs. the cruise of a ship is a buying agraph. the ship becomes a person fixation, she walks the waters like a thing of life but speaks

in moving accents to those capable of interpreting her. a ship can be a central character in a life's story through to which we view the past more clearly. following in the wake of her sisters, the css shenandoah was the last of the confederate raters. her mission to continue destruction of union commerce, now on the bottom of the english channel after her clash in june 18 64. from october 1864 until november 865. shenandoah carried the conflict around the globe to the ends of the earth. through every extreme of sea and storm. she was purchased from british owners, armed and commissioned. at almost the same moment, and an ocean away, as autumn blazed

in virginia, general share don route -- sheridan routed the rebels. a bloody ending to the campaign. the day ross lost, saw the birth of another. shenandoah has a clipper with a staple steam engine, the last of the type. she was the epitomy of the ancient art of tall ship construction, and a prime example of the new technology of the machine age. she could overtake almost any victim and outrun fry. the shenandoah's officers represented a cross-section of thephone feds was sunday. from the -- to a middle class missourians, clawing nephew of

robert e. lee, a grand me few of george made son, grandsons granf men fought at george george washington's side and an uncle of theodore roosevelt. these men considered themselves americans, southerners, rebels and warriors, embarking of the voyages of their lives. all except the captains and the ship's surgeon were under the age of 25. they were defending their country as they flood and it pursuing a difficult and dangerous mission, in which they succeeded spectacularly after it lo longer mattered. but the memory -- assemblage of merchant sailors enthrust foreign ports or from captureed

ships. these sailors were nearly every nation and color. mostly english, irish, scan navan and german and ought souths asia and pacific islanders and few born and raid yankees and several african-americans. most had never set foot on american soil. the officers strove to earn the sailors' loyalty and to balance discipline with humanity and they succeeded. most soars served loyally and energetic lou a difficult and dangerous cruise. shenandoah destroyed eight yankees vessels on the way around the cape of good hope and across the stormy indian ocean. in melbourne, she caused a sensation. the people were fascinated by, if not entirely informed about, their that are away accuse sins' conflict. as -- cousins' conflict. as word set of the festival

sightsees were on the shore. boats descended from every direction to view their first and only confederate visitor. the shape was besieged by sight sears, traveling as far as 300 miles, evoking a carnival atmosphere, and an estimated 10,000 came aboard in one day. the people of melbourne split into contentious political camps, one welcomed and celebrated their guestes, the other demanded her immediate departure. this was the war down under. william blanchard, u.s. consul in melbourne, carried on a fierce diplomatic war. a barrage of protests. it must be evidence, blanchard contend, that all presumptions of fact and law were against the legal character of the vessel which had no legitimacy as a commissioned warship of a recognized nation. vessel and men should be seized

for piracy. but upon the advice of crown law officers, the governor responded to consul blanchard. there was no evidence of piratical acts and whenever the previous history of the ship, the government was bound to treat her as a ship of war belonging to a belligerent power. the people of melbourne, like their english counterparts did not comprehend the comeplexty's the war but with romantic notions of honor and valor they related to her famous predecessor. the css alabama had been a tangible manifestation of the confess was si. her exploits brought the contest to them and the language of ocean commerce and ocean conflict, which they understood very well. have nothing particular stake in the success of the union or understand offering the concept, many looked on the men of alabama as valiant heroes, fighting great odds. captain semmes was an

international celebrity. at least at much as lincoln, grant and level despite vehement protests from the united states, confederate cruisers have been welcomed in colonial parts sum such as tra gentleman make car trine dad and gibraltar. the alabama caused a stir in capetown in august 1863 with parties and balancings in her honor. later, just the rumors of her appearance off hobson's bay created a fluoroy of excitement in melbourne. much of the glamor transferred to shenandoah which is what the confederates intended. a significant none of influential people in melbourne, however, were acutely worried about the visitors. there appeared to be little discussion or public debate of the central issues. union, succession, states rights, slavery. pro union sentiment focuses on

repugnance for economy raiding, dangerous for the umbilical cords of train with europe and america, and local issues such as land reform. the civil war generated economic unterritority even in australia with other widely fluctuating prices and availability affects huge quantities of imports. despite these concerns the preponderance of sympathy was for the south and officers were approached on the streets, showered with social invitations, presented free, open tickets by the railway company, voted members of the cricket club and of the melbourne club, and attended the theater gratis. repairs completed, shenandoah once more attained her natural element, cheered by a crowd of spectators.

the colonial steamer of war victorior and a few other vessels depend their flags in salute. the last international recognition the confederate banner would receive. the melbourne herald proclaimed, peace is what the southerners ask for. peace, meaning recognition and a new empire. the federals declared there shall be no peace without commission and their dictatorship. the south is engaged in a war of independence. the north has no more chance to conquer them than had corn wallace. europe acknowledged the confederate states of bell ledge rants and ought to have declared the south an empire. it is ironic that sympathy for the confederacy in great britain was concentrated in ruling elites of title and wealth, fight with aristocratic southerners and fearing yankee democracy, the tyranny of the mob. while many subjects of the queen

in colonial melbourne more in tune with radical politics and the expand franchise, favored the south, as champion opposing tyrannical central government. these melbourneans were on the wrong side of the war and the right side of history. 19 february 1865. confederate troops evacuated the cradle of the confess rads si, charleston, south carolina, to jensenan on the same day the shenandoah sailed from melbourne, repairs, replied and with 45 new crewmen. living melbourne, shenandoah sailed into the vast pacific and on april fool's day, 1865, approached the island of ponapaiy she captured four american whalers, burning yankee vessels, illuminated alien

surroundings while richmond went up in flames. this flared at both ended of the earth simultaneously. the young officers of shenandoah were fascinate by the island and its people. one of them marveled at the mingling of green and bright aqua marine which gave a cool and refreshing appearance to the harbor. their pie lot and translaterror an englishman who had been on the island for 13 years after escaping from sidney as a convict. he claimed to have read of the war in newspapers brought by visiting ships and to have informed the chiefs about it. they were, according to him, great admirers of jefferson davis. captain waddle -- electrified the men, it's heroism and dash were born upon the wings of

morning and waste by wafted by the breezes. waddle invited the local chief to visit shenandoah; they shared a pipe in the captain's cabin which put the chief at ease and and then toward the ship. they were amazed by the big guns, steam envein and fresh water condenser but seemed to comprehend their functions without confusion or fear. meanwhile, a plate of canoes surrounded them, mean holding up large green leaves as umbrellas. the chief departy in the best of spirits, inviting all ashore with a hearty welcome. the chev received quantities of coconuts, pine names --

pineappleles, giving tobacco in -- the chief was leader of one most powerful clans. the row royal reception and tour of the ship, a frif whats and trader did not extend was an enhancement of the chiefs prestige. the people were constantly around the ship, bartering fruits, shells and curiosities as well as pigs and chickens. shenandoah officers amused this. e themselves touring, huroning, sailing, swimming and trading tobacco or cloth for native curios, all, unbeknownst to them, the guns fell silents at appomattox. one of the lieutenants was particularly entrend by a young girl. so small, so sweet, so innocent. she had an open and intelligence encounters in, he dark face lit

up with joy, and such eyes, words cannot picture them. i looked upon this poor innocent beautiful little savage withs a mr. -- -- admiration. the captain presented the chief with a silk scarf which received in turn an artfully woven belt of coconut fibers and wool. the chief bestowed two dead chickened and a dozen coconuts as gifts for president davis. the host responded. tell jeff davis he is my brother, and a great warrior, and that i am very poor, and that our tribes are friends, and if he will send your vessel for me i will go see him in his country. waddle preserved the coconut as

a memento. it could be noted that the confederacy had finally, three days after appomattox, achieved its primary foreign policy octobertive, recognition from and offer of assistance by a foreign power. with morale restored by rest, recreation and destruction, shenandoah sailed, leaving an enduring legacy. 120 sailors left behind from the whalers, hawai'ians, other pacific islanders and few new englandersed were caught up in island politics and war. the descendents are still there today. while the war struggled to conclusion and the nation began to mind its wounds send anyone dough would invaded the north.

the deep cold of the bering sea. she fired the last gun in the civil war, ten weeks after appomattox, and set the land of the midnight sun aglow with flaming yankee whalers. capturing 24 vessels in one week, unprecedented accomplishment that few months before would have been greet with jubilation in the south and despair in the north in the next four years eight raiders de1 thon thousand tons of join shipping worth $17 million but the major impact was psychological. fear of capture. 800,000 tons, about a thousand ships, were sold into foreign ownership, to sail under the production of a neutral flag. primarily great britain's.

this was called the flight from the flag. it was a blow from which the united states merchant service never recovered. despite these losses, however, rebel cruisers put not a dent in the industrial war machine of the united states or the burgeoning trade that supported it. commerce just shifted to neutral ships and whaling was ebbing anyway, while the blockade followed the south. most confederate raters were in neutral ports, confiscated or decommissioned after unproductive cruises. fending off howls of protest from northern ship owners and shipper, bogey secretary of the navy, gideon wells, diverted only a few worship wereships.

another ship took the florida, only by an egregious violation of brazilian neutrality. shenandoah encircle wed world without being caught at all. in the fall of 1864, when shenandoah ban her cruise, northerners were pessimistic about victory. union desertion serged and the government was deep in debt. blood baths at the wilderness and stalemate in the trends around st. petersburg but a condemnation on president lincoln and general grant. pressured for peace was intense. the president despaired of winning re-election in november. what if shenandoah had cruised a

year earlier? achieving the same results on top of the destruction wrought by her sisters. how would news of another alabama losen the pacific during the summer doldrums of 1864 have contributed to northern malaise and to lincoln's re-election prospects. the confederacy might have been as close to independence that form are as at any timing their war. this is not an irrational strategy. by the spring of 1865, when shenandoah reached the bering strait, there could be no such hope. after destroying a good portion of the whaling fleet and scattering the rest, shenandoah headed south. awful the coast of california -- off the coast of california, passing british vessel delivered news of the war. con fed rates were men without a country, a profession, for oar future, presumably subject to imprisonment or hanging as pirates.

their fears amplified with great distance, the southerners could only imagine homes destroyed, families destitute and starving, men folk imprisoned, dead or executed. on 6 november 1865, shenandoah limped into liverpool. the captain lured the last confederates banner without defeat or surrender abandoned his tired vessel to the british. he and his officers went ashore to reconstitute their live. a over every obstacle, and for myself, i claim having done my duty, wrote captain waddle. the shenandoah as was the emit my of a maritime heritage and represented a new concept and an old strategy of naval war far and was a good exam of what a weaker, naval power can

accomplish in what we today call asymmetric warfare. the men on sentence dough would he'dded the call of their leaders, putting their lives, for and honor on the line. they sought to serve in the best traditions of the united states navy from which several came and which the took at their model. judging by their accomplishments they succeeded. the confederates navy was a paradigm of innovated -- the shenandoah and her men deserve to be remembered. they have much to teach us. this is, as admiral semmes describes biography of a cruise and a microcosm the confederates american experience. thank you. [applause]

>> charlie, talk about my favorite guy, joshua barney, how he got there and how did he and his flotilla men fare? >> barney almost missed the battle. after his flotilla was destroyed he brought his men back to the navy yard where he was assigned to guard the navy yard bridge, which goes over the rein, known as eastern branch of the pot tome -- potomac. guarding the bridge and the british had decided at this point to attack and do an end-around on the lower bridges by literally crossing the river at bladensburg. there was no other place to cross. you could burn bridges and never

get across, so i was almost obvious they would go up there, but nonetheless, barney's men are guarding the bridge when winder rides off to the battle an hour north by horseback, but very close to where the navy yard is, and as result what happens is to cut the chase quickly, james madison is riding by, ceases this tiny guy, 5'4", these two massive horse pistols on his waist, some people said he looked like a kid playing at war. and barney says, look, the -- why don't you allow us to come and be at the battle, and president says, sure, and he allows him to do that and barney then gathers up his flotillamen and sailors and n marine company in washington, dc, still there to this days, oldest post in the corps.

had to get that plug in and survive this burning of washington which ice start. they gene into the battle. that's one reason why they're in the third line, they literally get to the hour a british -- an hour before the british arrive. >> how did they do in the battle. >> the only troops that turned a credible performance. the army was ordered by winder to leave the field without firing a shot. dave navy and marines were stuck and guarding the road into capitol hill. it is estimated maybe they stayed there because kinder didn't believe -- winder didn't i believe it was in heir purview to give orders to the navy, and barney received none and is lefts alone to guard the road on his own. they do fairly well. the only repulse of british troops of the batfield that day is by the u.s. marines and navy flotillamen at the battle.

>> wow. dwight, i was taking notes and i found particularly interesting some of the crew and you mentioned african-americans and men who were descendent -- descend from people who fought with george washington. we talk about those? >> well, one of -- concerning the crewmen, one of captain waddles most vexing concerns was getting a full crew. he needed over 120 men to fully man the ship and the guns, and he tried to recruit from -- when he bought the ship he tried to recruit from the original crew and from the crew that was from the supply ship that brought their guns to them. and he didn't get nearly as many as he wanted and also recruited from captured vessels and recruited in milbourn, illegally, by the way buhe would take anybody who would

come onboard, and he had some goaled. he -- he some gold and offered them prize money which they never got. but he recruited at least three, and maybe a couple more african-americans, and one of them, ate least one, he paid as an ordinary seaman, and he also recruited many other nationalities and this was a long-stand tragedy digs of the united states navy -- tradition of the united states navy, since the rev louisville much more integrated and cosmopolitan diverse and of necessity because a sailor is a sailor is a sailor and doesn't matter where he comes from if he has the skills. so, there were no -- was no issue of -- or slavery onboard ship. >> a person could do the job, they can do the job. >> yes, and although being a sailor wasn't that far different

from being a slave anyway because of the labor involved and the authoritarian structure, but the authoritarian structure of shipboard life had evolved over centuries in the british navy and picked bin the united states navy. i was struck in the wildfires were, of course, all americans, i was struck by their -- the widespread representation of. sid? i lee was 1/2 few of robert e. lee, brother of fit hugh lee, and mason was grandson of founder george mason, and there were other connections there that were just fascinating. one fellow was an anomaly. a middle class brazilian, he actually had been a drug store clerk and got enam norred rom othese from the midwest.

but he managed to get an appointment to the naval academy. he didn't report because the war started so he reported to the confederate navy and worked his way up, but being from the midwest, and he didn't quite relate to the the aristocratic milieu of his southern and deep southern come patriots -- compatriots. interesting. questions? >> okay. charlie. what was the fate -- what happened to the colonial marines you mentioned? you can tell i'm interested -- >> they only were able to recruit 300 to 400 of them and did serve with distinction in the 1814 campaign in particular, but cochran allowed them to be transported to the island within -- the british caribbean of their choice or could go to bermuda or canada.

many ended up in nova scotia cochran made it clear when you escaped to his lines, if you were a slave, you were not required to serve in the colonial marines you were an african-american male. you could opt out and say i'd like to go to trinidad or jamaica and he would take them there. these are the folks the colonial marines that volunteered to stay. they were paid a wage of a rail marine, the same wage of the royal marines. got the red coat and training and were used against thens. >> actually saw bomb cat. >> they did, on the easternshow or virginia. so they would make landings, often times they would make these long raid up the tribute -- tributaries. they knew how to bet back. >> a question. >> -- were whalers civilians

and what happened to them? >> the crews -- yes. these were entirely either merchant trading vessels or whalers chap temperatured by the shenandoah and were removed from the shifts and that week the old slowseest and oldest of the captured vessels and put it on what they called bond, which is an agreement signed by the captain in the name of thers that at the end of the war the owns would pay the confederacy the value of ship and cargo, and this was a legitimate item of international debt, assuming the confederacy has gained independence which it didn't, but there were no casualties during the entire crew of the shenandoah except two sailors died late in the cruise from natural causes, but they removed the sailors and effects.

a few things slipped away. but they were all either put ashore in melbourne or put on ships and sent on their way. >> wait from the microphone. >> james monroe had an important role going from armstrong or from the secretary of war and -- i was unclear as to exactly what his role is. >> that's a great question. james monroe was present on the battlefield in bladensburg and played a significant role in fouling up the bowedle. without consulting general winder, monroe maneuvered militia placing them 500 yards behind where winder thought they should be and he did this based on the fact he was an army officer during the american

revolution and he believed he was as capable a general as anybody else on the battlefield but as a result deback call, the ire of the country was on john armstrong, the secretary of war. he had an unfortunate habit of saying what the thought and wrote a very condemning letter against the president of the united states for the problems that bladensburg and rather than take the hit he blamed madison. very quickly, madison and monroe got together and decided that armstrong had to go. and within two weeks after bladensburg, armstrong is move ought the door and has to return to new york, his home state, never to be seen in american public office again. but monroe then assume this job of both secretary of state, which is job was, he then takes over as secretary of war.

so he is in both departmentize. >> the only time that happened in american history. >> i know henry kissinger at one time was national security adviser of and secretary of state. >> dwight, describe the ship, how long, how fast? >> well, the ship is fascinating because it was a clipper ship, and it was the british tea clipper, which many consider -- and i tend to agree -- the epitomy of the clipper ship era and it was beautiful but also a had a steam engine, and it is what they call an auxiliary steamer. the steam engine was intended to help it through contrary winds on its cruises when it was going to china to pick up cargoes of tea. there were only a few clipper ships built with seem engines --

steam engines because they were not successful. the advantage gained from having a steam engine did not compensate for the loss of cargo space and the expense of coal spending nearing crewmen but it was a perfect combination as a commerce raider. the alabama was built from the keel up as ameter raider, and so it was ideally suited. the shenandoah was very close to the alabama in terms of its capabilities. it had -- shenandoah had six main gunsers two nine-inch rifle cannon and four -- 30-pound -- 60-pound -- irgoing get -- smooth bores. and actually was as well armed or close to as well armed as any of the opponentsed might have confronted, but they really didn't want to do that because the crew were not men of war and

not well trained at the guns, and they were not interested really in fighting another ship, ship of war. if there was one yankee ship, the iroquois, came closest to catching her, cased her around the cape of good hope, was a couple weeks behind. if they had met up, it could have been a similar engagement to the alabama. the kearsarge but captain waddell had no interest in doing that if he could avoid it. >> i see. the weaponry was just to scare the merchants. >> yes. the weaponry was to bring to the merchant vessels under anywhere national law if a commission warship under --... emeritus