that no one has -- provides a way to think about what takes to change your mind to accept a new idea in science, and i found out there was that richness, had to write. >> interesting. and it's a nice segue into next subject and that is in both book is found a fascinating threat which is the tension between theory and observation. i would say in both books. that comes through really through episode after episode. sometimes theirry and observation are nicely in sync, times they're in tension, and the tension drives science forward. i'd like to talk about that. first to you, tom, some very smart people kept seeing vulcan, a planet inside the ore get of mercury where we now know flows sump planet. how did that happen?

>> the case for vulcan in a new tonan world -- newtonian world is absolute. there was motion that was unexplained. an excess of motion in mercury's orbit. it's referred to as the presession of the -- the movement of the closest point, actually movement of the whole orbit the movement of the closest point that mercury reaches to the sun, and that closest point was going around the sun over centers. and it -- over centuries and doing so slightly faster thank all the gravitational influences suggest, and the lodge gist jibbing was inescapable. neptune was discovered by the same kind of analysis. we have just had a very powerful prediction of planet nine, way outside the bit -- orbits of wreckerry, -- mercury and that's a region where relativity

doesn't have a tug on the world. there's strong recent to believe that planet nine is a plausible prediction wimp haven't discovered it yet. not yet real but people are looking for it. and it's hard to do observations at the edge of instrumental exacter at the edge of your knowledge so if you see anything that -- with such powerful reason to expect it, and a known difficulty in finding it, it's really easy to persuade yourself that what you want to see, what you know you should see, is actually there, and you could see circles going across the face of the sun. the right kind of circumstance wool -- circle would be a planet, and it's really easy to

get caught up in the campaign and all that. and i think the -- the moral of my story, i think, is that the usual justification nor authority of sciences, it is self-correcting because a single root fact is enough to undermine the most beautiful theory. maybe true in the long run but not how human beings actually live and think and work, and this is book is an extended medication on -- meditation. >> there's same tension between theirry and observation and the question for you is, why did it take so lock for scientists to accept the idea of a black hole? >> well, is a was listening to tom i was realizing that my story is a counterpoint to his

story. because they had found neptune. of course they're going to find vulcan because they were spending the cosmos, the universe, the solar system to work just the wayed always had. with the black hole, it was the opposite. here was an idea that you use take a star and collapse it to a point. most astronomers in the very quiet, serene universe of the 1920s and 1930s, this was nonsense the universe did not work like this. no one could imagine any physical way that a star could get itself into this situation. so, most astronomers just pooh-poohed the idea. theorists work it out on paper and they had their doubts. einstein hated the idea.

the idea that you could have matter collapsed to pint -- we're talking infinite density and zero volume -- this sounds absolutely ridiculous. there must be a way. nature must have a way to stop this. but slowly the evidence started sneaking in karl swartz shield, few weeks after einstein came out with this teetherry love general relativity, came up with the first full solution the equation, something einstein didn't think could be possible. all of his calculations were done with approximations. schwartz shield shoveled the equation help -- solved the equation help was trying to determine mathematically the gravitational field around a star and made it easier if he put all the mass into a point, and that is when things went crazy. he realized, as he shot particles towards this point,

there was the boundary in which space stopped, time stopped. like nothing ever seen before. it wasn't the black hole yet but this boundary, they called it the swartz shield sphere, and physic texas the laws of physic stopped, and even swartz shields in his paper said this is obviously physically -- does not mean anything physically. most people assumed it was part over the mathematic. then in the 1930s there was a young astro physicist from -- chan contract. he realize that maybe indeed a star could collapse, the smallest star they knew in the 1930s was a white dwarf star

the size of the earth, and chandra realize it if wow put enough mass on the star, behind a certain point, one and a half solar masses, it would start collapsing. he saw it in the math -- mathematics but very few believed and he was latched at - laughed at when he gave a talk. but some people thought even beyond that, in 1932, they discovered the neutron particle. before that you only knew there was proton and an electron that made up the atom. they discovered the neutron, and a crazy theorist from cal tech, a year later, said, hmm, he was thinking about stars exploding, and in that he very presciently came up with the idea that when a star exploded, the core of it would crush down to just about

ten miles wide, into a pure ball of neutrons that was the beginning of the idea of the neutron star. this was in 1930. and again, people thought this was ridiculous. most astronomers said, nature does not work like this. they had never seen anything like that it. how would you prove it? if you had a little newton star, how would you use a telescope to see it? this was before the era when they had radio telescopes and x-ray telescopes. so, mainly it was the idea that they worked on how the universe looked to them in the past, it's going to look like that in the future to them. robert oppenheimer, worked out the first modern calculation of a back hole. it is -- black hole. it is accurate to this day according to cal tech theirist

kip thorn. 1939. unfortunately, it came out on september 1, 1939. that was the day that hitler marched into germany. -- i mean poland. sorry. thank you. >> before you say sign stain -- einstein that it he used of a black home. he presented the paper at the academy. >> he did but they weren't at -- he was happy with the full solution, and he was not concerned about that little math mat tall thing but other people started talking about and it he felt he had to step in and answer, and in -- after j. oppenheimer wrote his paper, the first modern description of a black hole, week later einstein

had a person in the annals of mathematics in which he proved that such a singularity, as it was called could not possibly exist. and historians over science have called thus einstein's worst scientific paper. he used a lot of hand-waving and bad physics to try to talk away the fact that gravity, at a certain point gravity becomes strongest force in the universe when you have very dense masses. lots of mass. very dense. gravity takes over. it is stronger than electromagnetic forces,ing new clearing forces, gravity takes over and the black hole will form. >> thank you. so, in one case we have people seeing something that wasn't there because theory predicted and it the other case people

rejecting an idea that seems ridiculous. >> they had to await the new technology, x-ray telescopes, finalling energetic objects that could not be explained without general relativity. general relativity came to though rescue to explain pulsars and qasars. >> the other thing that is important to make, one thing that is striking is how many different things you need to know sometimes to make an advance. one of the important elements in the story was the century-long attempt to understand how stars actually work. and that wasn't worked out in detail until after the second world war. until then this doesn't apply super massive black holes but understand thing detail the process of stellar life and

death, helps give narrative components to the story of where black holes come from, and when you have a story to tell that ends up at a black hole it's easier -- one thing i'm most concerned with is not just what science finds out but what scientists do in the -- what they are doing day-by-day, and even though mathematics is determinative. narrative is persuasive and scientist need persuasive narrative to see what is in front of them. and part of the story. >> you're always trying to take the latest information you have and try to stretch, stretch you're explanation 0 little more. in the 1930s, they were finding these very vigorous stars that throw off a lot of mass. much more than our sun ever

does, in its eruptions, and everyone -- the astronomers came to think that at the end of a star's life, and as you said they were still trying to figure out the life of a star -- it throws off enough mass it would never reach the neutron star or black hole stage and all just mathematics and you have too understand when you say that something collapses to a singularity, infinite density, zero volume, the physics no longer works. they have no way of explaining mathematically what is happening in that situation. general relativity can very much explain what is happening outside the event horizon, no one knows what is going on inside. that frightens physicists a lot when thief's seconds breaks down -- when the physics break down and until theyen jamaica quan tim maybe can jims with

relativity and come up with quan tim gravity. there's a lot of speculation, what's going on inside a black hole. they don't know yet. >> that brings us -- you have been talking about general relativity and that brings me to the last question i have before i throw it open to you guys because i'm sure you have questions. in both these books, einstein plays a big part. he is perhaps not the central figure but a central figure in both of these books, and in both instances we learn a lot about einstein before he was albert einstein, before he was the kind of icon of genius and the towering figure of the 20th 20th century. he was just an -- an ordinary dude. a ph.d, two, patent office and no one would have known who he was. >> and he was fairly good looking if you see the wavy dark hair. >> a physicist, you know.

>> what i was going to ask you, so one of the interesting things is we see albert einstein before he is the albert einstein we know, the icon, the terrible violin player and the -- very different kind of person. what want to ask you, if you can give me an answer, what do you think it was that enabled him and don't just say genius because i won't accept that answer. to -- that incredible burst of creativity basically turned our understanding understanding of the physical universe inside-out. he overthrew a paradigm that exited since the 17th under in a commanding and decisive way. work only his own, outside an academic institution, and of course the simple anxious is genius, bus i'd like to know a little more from both of you what could you think enables a person, working on his own, to

undergo that kind of -- to work on his own and to reach those conclusions in that kind of burst of creativity. >> the burst was years -- >> the old joke, john milton shows how you can be an overnight success at 50. einstein didn't produce this work in a month. he started working on general relativity in 1907. and he completed it? -- 1915. he thought waits 1913 but he made a couple of cure shall errors. -- crucial errors. einstein said he can recognize a problem, and he didn't entirely abeen don't hem -- you mean the ability to pick a problem that could be solved? >> right. big enough and important enough and difficult enough that it's worth doing.

he didn't want to do -- nibble at the edges. he was an ambitious man, but a problem that was solvable just and that mattered. he had a good nose for that. and as he said at one point he was stubborn and i spoke to his friend and buying agrapher, and he said that to him the single defining uniqueness of einstein was that his stamina. a normal physicist, a sane person -- that wasn't his words, that was pine -- >> a same person works on something for a year or two, but if after a while, after that long, you can't nail it, you move on to something that you can solve. einstein didn't. he -- if he thought the problem was important, he stayed with ewan -- unified field theory for

13 years and he didn't solve it but general relativity was logically necessary following his special theory of relativity and wouldn't stop doing it. that was his special -- his magic power. >> i think another aspect to this is his great visualization. he didn't get to the mathematics of general relativity right away. you often hear the way theoretical physicists work game their notebook and writing down equation is. he didn't do that. he threw thought experiments, thought fry -- i know this law of nature, how would it apply in this other realm? he thought through meticulously how each process should work and

imagined a clock in an elevator, away from the earth, into space, at an accelerating rate and realized that time would slow down in a gravitational field, and go faster and faster as you're getting away from the strength of the gravitational field. he didn't work that out with mathematics, not fully. he was thinking these through. he really understood the laws of nature in a way i think no other physicist of his era did and he could see the holes. he could see the way it had to be altered. >> i would modify that a little bit or augment hit. not that he knew the laws of fission seconds better than other people. he had -- if he had a particular quality of mind -- i'm deliberately individualing the word genius. i think there are works of genius, very few people of genius, and that's a distinction

i like to tug apart. the thing here is that he was actually very interested in philosophy and the philosophy of science and he had a mind that was honed by reading and thinking about that kind of material. and that made his thought experiments not just kind of hannity -- handy models to jump start his problem but was really very careful to set up a simplified abstract mental space in which very particular properties could be isolated. his thought experiments were not doodles. they were actually very rigorous. and he was frankly -- he was somebody who thought in physical terms, and at the vender when he was producing general relativity in the last burst in 1915 he had spoken with the greatest mathematician in germany, given

seminars the june, and inspiring hilbert to get to the theirry. hilbert said the school boy in the street has more -- knows more mathematics than einstein. einstein knows physics. >> i think the word genius distances us from someone who was very human being, and i wanted to see a little bit about what the human qualities that led him to be able to make these discoveries. so thank you both very much. this has been fascinating. i think you guys would like to get into the conversation, and i encourage you to do so now. there are microphones at the back. if you want to ask a question, please go to the back and get a microphone -- >> the microphone will come to you, as in general relativity, the microphone will come to you.

>> who this mountain and who muhammad. >> the lady in the white. >> is it possible -- is it possible that the infinite mass you describe in the singularity of a black hole could -- if you add those all up for the universe, could that account for dark matter and dark energy? >> no. actually not. because -- people have work that out. the stars start with matter and they know from meticulous calculations and examination of the cosmic microwave background they can calculate exactly how many ordinary particles of matter came out of the big bang, and they can account for it, and anytime a star collapses to form a black hole, that matter is already accounted for in that

calculation. so, the black holes are not the dark matter. >> good question, though. interesting. all right. in the back. >> i was curious how to youtime to science writing per se. not the blockbuster movie. >> we both have probably slightly different -- i will try to condense mine. i actually -- my undergraduate degree was in journalism. i worked 40 years as a tv reporter and anchor woman, i don't know if anybody was in nor folk, virginia,in' 1971 to 1975. i anchored channel 13 news. back, way back. but i always was captivated when went to the nasa langley researcher center in hampton and said if could i do this 24/7 i would be happy, and i just left the tv station, went back to

school, and got a graduate degree in physics, masters degree in this seconds because i wanted to specialize -- in physicsed because i wanted to specialize in writing on physics and astronomy, and once i got the degree i had an internship at science news magazine, on the charter writing staff when discover magazine started in new york city in 1980. i was there for a couple years. and then i was on my way and went from there writing for a lot of other science magazines and started writing books. >> thank you. tom. >> and we were ships passing in the night. >> i arrived tat at discoveryin' 1983 just have she decamped. i'm not sure if there is would cause and effect. i am -- i was fascinated by popular science from -- works of popular science from early on, but when i went to kilning did my degree in east asian studies. early modern and modern japanese

in chinese history, and while i was through got interested in the question of what happened, what it was like to face the scientific revolution down the barrel of a gun, as it were, which describes a lot -- one way of getting into a lot of what happened in east asia from the 17th to the 19th centuries. so i started taking history science classes. but that doesn't tell you why you'd write about science. after i graduate from college i went overseas. i just did that sort of post college wandering, finding myselfed and end up in the philippines and stump belled interest a job writing feature uses for the local reuters bureau and they just fired a couple of people. you have to feed the wire so even a just out of college, complete live clueness, -- the

question was, can you type? and the answer wasow. so i can't want to quote taxi driver asks talk about the traffic on the way in from the airport, and i had the good fortune be asked to cover an international coral reef biology conference. i met a bunch of researches and they were doing really interesting work and had actual data. and that meant that i could ask a question about the politics or the culture or social issues or business, even, that started from something like how do you get coral reef tiles in an airport in the philippinees when it's illegal to mine coral, who who got the mining companies to -- we know the pool is full of toxins, how many howe comp it's there, any anyplace from somebody who could science had found annual data. and every story start with something real and that got me hooked. >> many roads to science

journalism. >> next? the gentleman in the orange. >> i was intrigued by mars should's comment about every galaxy has a black hole and also without -- sound like something oust hindu philosophy but without this immeasurable -- galaxies would not exist. >> maybe. this is something that just came out in the last ten years, in statistically they've now come to see that every major galaxy, spiral galaxy, elliptical galaxy galaxy, has super massive black holes and the size of them seem to be in proforce the size of the -- proportion to the size of the galaxies. the smaller galaxies have

small-under black holes and birth ones have bigger ones and they're just now trying to figure out how did they even form? did they -- third the black holes form first and the galaxy afterwardses? did they form in in unison in this is a big mystery, top question in cosmology from the early universe hundred that happened. >> isn't -- a leading candidate for combining quantum mechanics and relativity. >> it's having problems. it's -- i like your word leading candidate. it is the closest they've come so far, but it is not the definitive answer and still have

a lot of road blocks to try to find this answer. though, by studying -- you have heard the announcement they're getting these gravity waves that are coming from these colliding black holes. by studying these waves and studying the black holes, they may -- it may give them some insight on ways to find a way merge general relativity with quantum mechanics. ...

>> did, of course, get harder and harder to find. one thing that'll be interesting is how much more quantitative work people are going to be able to do on the cosmic background. you probably heard about the failed detection of a certain kind of polarization in the cmb that was, that had it been true would have been very, very strong support for a multiple universe scenario. but refining those kinds of cobs vegases and try -- observations and trying to get more data off potential successors decades from now in space and so on. the next measurements are going to be -- measurements are already really, really hard.

the next measurements are going to be even harder. >> you're going to have to make them. >> i was going to say concern. [laughter] >> you're going to have to make them. >> you become an astrophysicist, and for your dissertation, maybe you'll be figuring that out. >> over here. >> i think you mentioned we could calculate the number of the bits of matter since the big bang. what happens at the singularity of a black hole? does that matter blink out of the known universesome. >> there are many -- universe? >> there are many, some people do. there is a theorist named lis molan, and he has the idea with every birth of a black hole in our universe, it leads to the birth of another universe in another set of dimensions that are apart from ours so that what every universe wants to do is

work out as many black holes as possible, almost like dna, you know? the dna wants to spread, it wants to have its genetic material spread over the world, that the best universe and the most prolific one would be one that has lots of black holes that are building up other universes elsewhere. but it's totally speculation. >> i have this vision of leonard nimoy with a goatee -- [laughter] >> total, total. they really do need to understand what is happening past the event horizon, and that needs a full theory of quantum gravity. right now there's differences. when you look at it classically, yes, all the matter is, you know, almost instantly taken to the center and crushed. but there are people, you know, on the edges of this, these theories of quantum gravity which suggest that you go past the event horizon, and you see

space and time breaking up. you are hitting a firewall of great energy and that space and time itself disintegrates. but, again, they're doing this off approximations. it's all speculation. and for every paper that comes out, there's a counter-paper, so it's all in flux right now. >> watch the last few minutes of 2001, and it'll all become clear. [laughter] >> yes. truly understandable. >> i think we'll have time for about two more, because i want to give tom and marsha time to meet them and sign your books. let's have two more. this gentleman down here has been waiting a little while. >> i think i heard you say that black holes were infinite density and zero volume, and then you talked about large and small black holes -- >> oh, i'm talking about the event horizon, the boundary, the point of no return. yeah. when usually you talk about sizes of black holes, you're

talking about the size of the event horizon. the matter is -- >> that depends on how much mass has gotten compressed? >> yes, exactly. the bigger, the more mass that's compressed, the farther out the event horizon goes. >> yeah. i think this will be the last one.microphone is coming to you. >> so i'd like to take us away from black holes for just a moment and maybe more to your day job and your history with discover magazine and the like. obviously, with all the people in this room there is a huge interest in this topic and science in general within this particular population. but we are also in a country right now where scientific literacy seems to be as an all-time low and actually under attack. and i guess i was hoping the two of you could possibly talk about

maybe a little bit about the program at mit or your general view of how do we work and solve that problem writ large. >> tough question, probably tougher than black holes, but, yeah. [laughter] >> it is tougher than black holes. >> always harder than physics, by far. >> yes. >> number one, it's not altogether clear that science literacy is actually getting worse. science in political discourse is clearly getting worse, but that's not the same thing. and, you know, there are days when -- monday, wednesday and friday i get up and think that the last 30 years i've tried to commune candidate to the public has -- communicate science to the public has made things worse. tuesday, thursday and saturday i think not, and sunday i go fishing. [laughter] what we do at mit is we train a small group of advanced students who have just come out of university or people who have been out in the world for a while doing different things, sometimes going to graduate

school. we've had a couple of ph.d.s in the sciences finish and come to us. and we try and do two things, i think most importantly. teach them the fundamental skills of journalism and reporting accurately on science and all those kinds of things, but at least as importantly, give them a sense of the, i mean i don't want to sound too whoo or too fanciful or too i don't know, but the art, the literary power of stories in which science is the core. so we want them to be great journalists. that's the starting point. but we want them to have the capacity, the rhetorical sensibility, the artfulness to persuade people by the structure and quality of what they write or broad, you know, put in film or whatever, whatever medium they end up working in.

and i think, you know, i think that's important. i think, you know, just creating a strong public culture around any kind of body of ideas and work and sensibility, i mean, i want really important, good writing about technology. i want, you know, great nonfiction about our recent history or our current, you know, circumstances in social circumstances, and i even think it's essential that science be communicated with the same literary intent, the same attempt knowing, again, you know, persuasion and the ability to get in somebody's head and make them hold onto whatever it is we've talked to them about. that's what we're after. >> i think -- oh. >> just to finish up, the reason that's important is political discourse now really is terrible. and you can't persuade somebody of something when their living depends on not knowing what they

in fact, i think much of the current republican leadership knows full well that climate change is happening; that it's manmade and all that sort of stuff. but there is a set of other imperatives that makes it difficult for the political system to respond to it. you can't change that with science journalism or science writing, but you can change the civic life around that politics in hopes that the politics, you know, catches up. >> marsha? >> i was just going to add just emphasizing something you briefly noted. i think science writing has vastly improved over the last few decades because the focus now is on storytelling. the narrative. that's how you get the attention of the populace who are interested in it. i know when i was growing up, yes, we had science books, but they were sort of textbook-y and, you know, only the nerds would be reading them. but now we have wonderful

stories of science, and we are broadening the audience. and i think that is helping. i think that will help. it's entering into our educational system. i know i'm doing more talks now where my narrative books are being used in the school room. and i think that can help as well, is making sure that we see that science writing isn't off to the side here. it's part of the literary experience in storytelling and narrative. >> thank you. and i want to thank both of our guests who are clearly excellent storytellers in science for bringing us this experience and telling us about their books, thank them both for their books and their participation, and their books will be available up here if you'd like to buy them. [applause] [inaudible conversations]

>> watch for more from last weekend's virginia festival of the book tomorrow starting at one p.m. eastern. [inaudible conversations] >> you're watching booktv on c-span2, television for serious readers. here's a look at what's on prime time tonight. we kick off the evening at 7 p.m. eastern with a look at the relationship between polly murray, co-founder of the national organization for women, and first lady eleanor roosevelt. then at 8:15, an exploration of hitler's nine months in prison. at nine, james walsh goes undercover to pull back the curtain on union organizing. and on "after words" at 10 p.m. eastern, nancy cohen explores the advances women have made in politics and the possibility of

a female president. we finish up our prime time programming at 11 with the exploration of gender bias and the need for equality in business. that all happens tonight on c-span2's booktv. >> retired army colonel patrick murray, why'd you write a book? >> guest: peter, i spent 25 years in the army. i was honored to do that. and then i ran for congress afterward, and it scared me straight with the state of our political system. when you look at polls, about three-quarters of americans are unhappy with the direction that their country is going and with government. and i, as a constitutional conservative, count myself as one of those. and i believe that that comes from the fact that our founders set up this system where the individual has the starring role, and government plays a supporting role. but it's sort of flipped on its

head. and that led me to the title of the book, "government is the problem," because i believe both political parties, career politicians on both sides of the aisle, facilitate that. and, actually, you're seeing that play out right now, i believe, in the republican primary and the fact that so much of the conservative base is rallying around someone with no political experience, that's completely outside of the republican establishment. >> host: is that a good thing? >> guest: i think it's a very good thing. i think the republican party needs to have this crucible to go through because i believe, look, we already have one party of big government. that's the democrat party, whether you like it or not. that's what they espouse. the republican party ostensibly is supposed to be the party that is intellectual descendants of our founding fathers. they should be channeling milton friedman, standing for limited government, but they don't. i mean, you can go back to the

two terms of president george w. bush where we had a republican-controlled senate, a republican-controlled house, we doubled the federal debt, we slathered on government regulations, we created a new entitlement, we created a new government agency, we were not -- we're not -- they're not governing as conservatives, and i think that's what's led to this situation now. >> host: when people talk about, colonel murray, constitutional conservative, what exactly does that mean? what's a real-life example of that? >> guest: well, i'm a real-life example of that. so i've stopped calling myself a republican even though i am a conservative, i'm a constitutional conservative. and by that it's very simple. i believe our constitution is something along the lines of our owner's manual for the nation, and you need to adhere to it. when i swore an oath as an army officer to support and defend the constitution, then there's no statute of limitations on that. our politicians do the same thing. and to me, being a

constitutional conservative means adhering to that. that means limited government, individual liberty, especially the tenth amendment. we've gotten way away from that on both sides of the aisle because i think our career politicians have sort of broken the cold that the bigger, the more powerful, the more extensive the federal government is, the better it is more their incouple bicep says. so -- incumbencies. so i really believe they're supporting their incumbencies as opposed to the constitution. >> host: you refer to your book as an after-action report on the 2012 election. >> guest: i do. so i started writing that -- whenever you do any kind of mission or objective in the army, you finish and write an after-action review. you take a look at what you did right, what you did not so to well and how to improve things. the more i researched it, the more i looked into it, the more i realize that i don't believe a political cycle, if you're not happy with the direction the country's going, i don't think a

political cycle fixes that. i don't think electing, you know, the next great person fixes that because i think it's systemic. and so that's where i came up with solutions. whenever you do an after-action review, you can't just complain, you have to provide solutions. and mine, it's right in the constitution. it's article v of the constitution which affords us the ability to call something called a convention of states whereby the states can propose constitutional amendments separate and distinct from congress and the federal government. >> host: what was the self-publishing process like for you? >> guest: well, it was -- i'd never written a book before, but i never ran for congress before either, so i had -- i was blessed with some wise people who have done those things, and so when i found a couple of editors and i found it, this publishing house -- they're sort of a step above self-publishing, and they were helpful.

and so it was, it was about a one-year process to go through the whole thing, to write it, edit it and refine it. but it was terrific to be able to codify your thoughts and get 'em down in the book. >> host: retired army colonel patrick murray. here's the book: "government is the problem." this is booktv on c-span2, and we are at cpac. ♪ ♪ >> went i tune into it on the weekend, usually it's authors sharing their new releases. >> watching the nonfiction authors on booktv is the best television for serious readers. >> on c-span they can have a longer conversation and delve into their subjects. >> booktv weekends, they bring you author after author after author that spotlight the work of fascinating people. >> i love booktv, and i'm a c-span fan. >> host: we're joined by author luther campbell. here's the book, "the book of

luke: my fight for truth, justice and liberty city." mr. campbell, what and where is liberty city? >> guest: liberty city is probably about ten minutes away from here on 58th and tenth avenue right in the heart where i was raised at. 62nd, you know, martin luther king boulevard, right where liberty city is. >> host: what is it? >> guest: what is it? oh, it's a historical black neighborhood like i talk about in my book, it's a neighborhood in which black folks from here when we first moved here, when we first came here, you know, everybody lived in overtown, and we eventually started moving to liberty city when i-95 was cut right through the african-american community here in south florida. so my dad, you know, like i talk about in the book, was one of the first persons to purchase a home there. you know, they didn't know he was a black guy when he came,

showed up, you know? he had already gave a deposit. but at end of day when they saw him show up, it was like, oh, we didn't know we were selling to a black guy. he eventually moved in, one of the first guys to move to liberty city. >> host: and the deposit went from 500 to 2500 overnight, huh? >> guest: exactly. w >> host: what is 2 live crew? >> guest: it's a group that eventually got into after i started out deejaying early on in my career, i was a mobile deejay around here in miami, and the guys came down just like every other band, you know, that was struggling, were not getting paid their royalties, and so eventually they said, look, we want to do songs where we'll get paid. i said, well, i'll help you, i just want you to help me out, because, you know, i want you to do a song of one of my dances that i created.ut and they did this song called " throw the d."

you remember that song? it was a great dance. [laughter] s >> host: called "throw the d." >> guest: eventually it went from that point to us doing an album -- >> host: it was rap music? >> guest: rap music, yes. first hip-hop song done in the south, you know? and from there we started and created hip-hop in the south. >> host: what's the relationship between 2 live crew and the supreme court? >> guest: ah, 2 live crew and the supreme court. 2 live crew ended up getting into the supreme court in my cra case between -- [inaudible] and myself.t you know, it was something thate i think that had to happen, that was destined to happen because hip-hop at that period of time was under attack by, you name it, dan quayle, governor martinez in the state of florida, you know, my friend, judge gonzalez, a federal judge here in broward county. you name it, everybody was after

hip-hop at that time. >> host: was it a first amendment case, that got to theu supreme court? >> guest: yes. yes, it was whether parody was protected by the first amendment. it was a parody case originally. there was two cases that i talk about in the book. one, obviously, the one that went to the supreme court, but i think the most important case was the one that my lawyer, bruce rogo, got overturned in the fourth district court of appeals. no, not the fourth district court, but the court of appeals it was where, the obscenity case, whether this music was considered obscene or not. judge gonzalez originally said that the music was obscene, and we had to go back and get it overturned, because if we didn't, the music you hear today would have been totally different. >> host: luther campbell, at one point you write in your book that you were worth about $100 million. >> guest: yes, yes, yes. >> host: was the money, did it come easy? >> guest: well, did the money come easy? not really. i mean, it was tough. it was tough.

i think, you know, just like biggie smallses' song says, the more money i got, the more problems i got. i tried to do the right things and be smart about it. i tried to hire good, competent people, you know, good attorneys, tax attorneys, general counsel as i built my corporation. but when you're reading the book, most of those people, those intelligent, smart people that i did put around me, theyor stole from me, in my opinion. so it was, it was difficult to make the money, but it was hard to keep the money. >> host: was your work as part of 2 live crew, was it graphic? >> guest: my work, my work was not graphic. i think works of the other members could have been considered as graphic. but i defended their right, you know, to tear artistic -- to their artistic values as well as free speech. you know, when you listen to a record and you listen to the lyrics that i wrote, it was totally different.

but i was the producer, so iel take full responsibility for everything that was put out and given out to the general public. >> host: from your box, "thes book of luke," at the end of the day, there's one simple reason why hip-hop historians and journalists don't give me ther credit i'm due, it's because of uncle luke.na who is uncle luke? >> guest: uncle luke, you know, my mom raised luther campbell, my mom and my dad raised luther campbell, you know, just like she raised all of my other four brothers, you know? all of these guys are pretty much rocket sciences, you name it, who's who, summa cum laude, comptrollers of major with plants, navy pilots. me, you know, i was the young guy, the baby of the family who looked around and heard all those guys call back complaining about money they needed for college or whether they were in the armed services and felt like they were being mistreated because they were black. particularly my third oldest

brother when he was in the navy, i don't think he ever got any leaves because, you know, he was trying to be a pilot. so, you know, and then i ended up from deejaying becoming, you know, uncle luke. uncle luke became -- it wasing u originally luke skywalker -- >> host: with two ys -- >> guest: yeah. then george lucas sued me, and i was the deejay, luke skyywalker. now i'm still uncle luke because i'm everybody's uncle. i look out for my community, and i do, i try and do the right thing for everybody. >> host: so, mr. campbell, was uncle luke a stage persona, in a sense? >> guest: yeah, yeah. no doubt about it. i mean, luke -- you have luther campbell, luke, and then you have uncle luke. so luke on stage was a guy that gave the people what they wanted, you know? if you listen to a record, you

know, we felt it was our responsibility to go out and give people what they want other than going into a concert or a situation and toning it down at that time, at that particular time. and on the records, you know, as more as the government pushed back, we pushed back, and the records got a little more graphic than we wanted them to become, but, you know, we were in this thing called fighting for free speech. >> host: the fight for 2 lives crew's explicit lyrics, you write, was never really about the lyrics. it had been about the principle of fighting for the right to do the same thing white artists did without legal harassment and censorship. >> guest: yeah, yeah.r i mean, when i looked at it at that particular time, again,ing with the first hip-hop label in the south and then owning it and operating it myself, you know, i looked at artists like leroy skill key, you name it, dolomit

everything, then you look at people like andrew dice clay,a those guys were already on records, they were not getting their records taken off the shelf.t so i looked at it from the standpoint of saying i'm a hip-hop artist, i own my own record company, i'm an easy target for the government, and i just said, look, if i gotta take all my money that i earned to fight for free speech for hip-hop, then i will do that. >> host: what are you doing today?t >> guest: what am i doing today? i'm coaching high school football. you know, i still have the record label, luke records, and we do quite a few musical jingles for commercials, whether it's commercials or movies, and i'm just, you know, helping my wife out with her nfl agency i and restaurants -- agency and restaurants and, you know, i'm just happy doing, you know, helping out for the community as well. >> host: how'd you get involved in being a defensive coordinatoh for a miami high school? >> guest: well, my passion has

always been football. you know, i ended up going to miami beach high on a, playing football. so, you know, i always said wheo my career dies down, then i'll go back to my youth program, liberty city optimists, that i founded 25 years ago. and i started coaching, and i did. and i ended up coaching and now got some great players in the energies fl -- nfl whether it's louisiana von today davis, delaware von today freeman who'k going to beat up your redskins and, you know, just having -- duke johnson, you name it.t. we got quite a few kids in the league now. but the most important one is the one that came out of my program, he's a sitting commissioner on one of the most important areas which is this area as well, you know? i'm happy about all of 'em. >> host: so let's bring it all back, luther or campbell, to liberty city, your career, the trajectory, what you went through. what's your role with liberty

city now? >> guest: my role is liberty city is to try and, you know, is to stay here and just do everything i possibly can to help the people, you know, who do not have a voice. i mean, when i look at politics in liberty city and miami in general, other thankey onhardman, all our black officials owned by special interest groups that don't have any interest of thee african-american people here in south florida. so my job is to today here and fight, fight for them, fight for kids in schools, you know, fight for jobs, you know? because the unemployment rate is horrible. you know, fight for blighted communities like overtown and liberty city because every day is a challenge of taking their property and putting condos on their properties every day here. so that's one of the reasons why i'm happy i didn't move to hollywood when i was doing movie is the and happy that i didn't

move to new york when i was, you know, very, very successful in the music industry and justov stayed here and fight for my people. >> host: you talk in your book the fact that you ran for mayor at one point. >> guest: yes, yes. >> host: how'd you do? >> guest: oh, i did good. i came in fourth place. i came in first place with all>> the living voters and fourth place with all the dead voters. see, in south florida you've got dead voters, they call them absentee, you know? they're really absentee. so the living people i came in fist place, and the dead people -- first mace, and the dead people i came in fourth. >> host: you got 11% of the vote overall. >> guest: yes. >> host: you also talk about how you look at it as one miami. >> guest: yes. >> host: has that in any way been achieved? >> guest: it's still a struggle because when you, you know, when -- from the outside looking in, the people of miami want one miami. i mean, it's not a day that goes by that some of my latin friends or jewish friends or anglo

friends, you name it, that comes to me and says what can we do to help these communities, and what can we do to help these schools? there's not a day that goes by that these good folks -- there'm much more to politicians who are controlled by these special interest groups than they are actually putting money into their pockets. they're the ones who try to the create this diversion and separation of you are town. but we have some -- of our town. we have some great people here, and i think that's going to be my slogan going forward, one miami. >> host: in your book, "the book of luke," you talk about theo fact that the explicit lyrics label that's put on, that was put on a lot of albums and cds, you're partially responsible for that, but it wasn't put on until white kids started buying rap music, explicit rap music.ti it was okay, you say, when black kids were buying it.

>> guest: yeah, yeah, yeah. just like i say, you know, in the book i talk about it in detail, because i wanted people to know, you know, what i was going through. i had to really figure out why i was going through all of this controversy, why all these governors and vice presidents and tipper gore and everybody was coming after me. so, you know, as i went on, i just started thinking about it, it was like, okay, well, hip-hop has been around, you know? now that it's crossing over, you know, and rock and roll is being phased out a little bit, you know, a lot of white kids are listening to the music, that's when the controversy came. that's when guys like myself,tr ice-t, nwa, we ended up on tipper gore's list, al gore's wife, you know, of the top ten bad guys. so at that time i really just figured that's what it was all about, all about white kids now getting the music. .. ic. ..

explicitly directs inside here in the book. the book of here is the book, the book of luke, my fight for truth, justice and liberty. luther campbell is the author.

>> ladies and gentlemen, please be seated.

>> good afternoon everybody. welcome to the u.s. institute of peace. my name is nancy lindborg, in the present of usit and i'm absolutely delighted to welcome here this afternoon for her first visit she usit mrs. bush. we are very happy to have you here and i also want to welcome ambassador from the islamic republic of afghanistan and mrs. mrs. motive, delighted to have you here with us and we have many other yes here in iran. thank you for joining us, thank you for coming this afternoon and for those of you who are new to usit we are an independent national institute found by

congress 30 years ago and dedicated to the proposition that peace is possible, peace is practical and peace is essential for u.s. and international security and we pursue a vision of a world without ilec conflict by working in conflict zones with partners equipping them with tools, with knowledge and with training. there is probably no place where usit teams have spent more time than afghanistan working with civil society and government partners to help make peace possible. we are delighted to have today a panel discussion to discuss exactly who are some of the powerful women helping to make peace possible in afghanistan and i have the distinct privilege of introducing our panelists and our moderator. let me know that we will have ushers coming down the aisle to collect your question cards for questions after opening remarks.

if you have a question please write down your name, your affiliation along with the question on the card and we will make sure that gets on stage. so first, let me welcome mrs. laura bush and former first lady of the united states. she has long been an advocate for expanding the rights and the opportunities of women in afghanistan. she traveled to more than 76 countries including two historic solo trips to afghanistan and today is the chair of the women's initiative at the george w. bush institute mrs. bush continue to work on global health care innovation, empowering women in emerging democracies, education reform and supporting the men and women who have served in america's military. we also have with us today ms. mina sherzoy who is a gender activist with more than 25 years of experience in economic

development and advocacy. ms. mina sherzoy has extensive experience in capacity building and ngo building in afghanistan to she has worked with the afghan civil service commission and government counterparts to include women's participation in government and currently she served as afghanistan-based senior gender -- senior gender adviser and featured in a wonderful book we are here to celebrate by mrs. bush. finally i'm delighted to introduce mr. steven hadley, who currently serves as chair of the u.s. ip board of directors, as our wise counsel and champion. previously steve was the assistant to the president at the national security affairs for four years and then president george w. bush and from january 2001 to 2005

assistant to the president and deputy security adviser. please join me in giving a very warm welcome to our three wonderful guests. apopka. >> all right. >> we are delighted that all of you can be with us in course mrs. bush we are delighted to have you here at the u.s. institute of peace and delighted delighted -- you really need to do so. it's a terrific book. what we are going to do this afternoon as we are going to have a conversation among

mrs. bush and myself are 25 minutes or so and then we are going to have a question-and-answer period for you. there are cards that have been distributed. please write your questions on the cards, pass them to the isles and there will be run is coming down and getting them and passing them out to me and we will try to get through as many questions as we can. we will then at the end turn to our panelists if you will and asked for any closing comments and then we will adjourn probably at 5:00 so again we are delighted that you are all with us here for this wonderful event i want to start mrs. bush with usi might. you have a long history of being a real epic it and champion for afghan women. you were the first, first lady to deliver the presidential radio address in november of 2000 when you spoke about the challenges and the strength of afghan women at that time. why is this such a cause for you

, of all the things you could take on his first lady, wide were afghans and women so important to you during your tenure as first lady? >> after september 11 when they spotlight turned on afghan american women including myself saw women who are marginalized, who were left out and the very idea of a government that was for bid of its education from -- population from being educated was shocking to american men and women but a lot of people started calling me to say i want to do something, what can i do to help in one of my best friends are in houston called and said i used to be so glad i wasn't in your shoes but she said now i wish i were. i'm jealous because you can do something and i can't. so right then we formed the u.s. afghan women's council and mary mary -- very many american women out of project to support our

sisters and that was really the beginning of my interest in afghanistan and the women there. all the years that lived in the white house and since i have stayed in contact with many women that i have met through the u.s. women's council and i wanted to write about them. >> you said you wanted to write about them. why this book in this way? by the way if you haven't seen it it has a forward from mrs. bush. it's a wonderful tribulations of afghanistan over the last 25 years and it's wonderfully written. that's why this book in this particular way? p it's called voices of hope and these are the stories of women in afghanistan and because their voices were silenced i thought it was important for all of us to hear what they have to say.

besides that things have changed since september 11 and things have changed since the first time i visited afghanistan. i wanted people to know that. so i think this is a great way for all of us to learn not only about each of these women and one brave man included, his story but also to learn more about the history that in the stand. i think we think we know it all but their lives really show the history of the last 40 years of afghanistan starting with for many of them when the soviets came in in 1979 lead at that point some of these women immigrated to pakistan with their families. some of them ended up in the united states after that but nearly all of them went back after september 11 when they could go back. some lived there the whole time

through the years of the soviet occupation and years with the taliban and are still there. i wanted to tell their stories. i wanted americans to hear their stories and i'm thrilled to have this opportunity to tell their stories with this book. >> you were one of the people in that book. you were born in afghanistan, came to united states, spent most of your young adult life in the united states until 9/11 which was dramatic for all of us september 11, 2000 when he decided to go back to afghanistan. tell us about your decision to return to afghanistan and what you have been doing their end your life there now that you have returned. >> and to tell us why you were in afghanistan when the soviets came in. >> first of all i want to thank you and i'm very privileged to be here with on this day with you mrs. bush and mr. hadley and i want to thank you usip as

always for putting together such a dynamic event and thank everybody for being a part of this were tour here today. i was young. i had just graduated from high school. i went to high school in kabul and my father was a diplomat. he was an ambassador at that time and we heard -- which was a shock and it came in such a fog that at first we didn't know. they invaded the country. i was so young i didn't know the meaning of it. i was raised in the golden ages. we didn't think of war. i've never seen a gun before or a tank or anything else, so to me it was like okay somebody invaded and they will go back. so we slowly emigrated to the

united states. even my father had the attitude that after a few years ago back in the american ambassador in germany gave my father, he was going to give him citizenship, green cards and everything and he said no, no, no i don't want to do that i'm going back in three years. to make a long story short we ended up staying for 25 years. september 11 happened and when september 11 happened of course my father was one of the first people that went to afghanistan and he was the deputy political foreign minister. so i saw the opportunity because a lot of people were telling me don't go, don't go it's dangerous. deep inside all these 25 years i have the passion to go back and i always thought of the afghan people being there and suffering and i always thought of having,

and i'm thankful and grateful for having all the opportunities that i had in the united states. so how could i leave them? so there were three of us, three women. i lived in california and the three of us decided to start doing fund-raising for the afghan women. we did fund-raising before because i used to do a lot of fund-raising and raised 2000, $3000 incentive, the best i could do but this time is different. the fund-raising, the doors had opened so was time to go now, time to go and give, time to go and help and take people's hands whatever the darkness has been in the past let's overcome that. that's why i have always wanted to go back up until september 11 i couldn't because of the war

and the taliban and what was going on. after that i decided to go back, yes. >> what was it like when you went back? what was your first reaction? what was the environment after 2001 and then tell us a little bit about the environment now. >> i think being raised in the golden days, during the golden days in afghanistan and i'm really grateful for living in america and to be honest with you i cherish my life here. america gave me security, peace serenity education opportunity, everything. i went there to be honest with you for three weeks because i had two daughters. i have two daughters and they were going through college at that time. so i said i'm going for three or four weeks and i will get back, which i never returned.

so when i went out one thing that i found that triggered my heart and my mind at the same time because when i landed they took me, the driver and my cousin they took me to the american embassy to register for security reasons. being an american citizen you have to register so i got out of the car and everything was out on the street at that time. i went ahead and started signing the papers and talking to the soldiers and i turned around -- this was actually march 14 when i landed there. so i turned around and i saw this 10-year-old boy or 9-year-old weigh in raggedy close, barefoot and it was kind of chilly. he was polishing my cousin shoes for a dollar. i just saw that and i totally freaked out right there because i started thinking how i was

raised. when i was 10 years old, my nieces, my daughters, my family, my friends, my friends kids. but they are in another world. even when they grow older our parents, they didn't polish our shoes not even now but that broke my heart right there. the next thing i did was after we got through studying everything i went to, i called my daughters. i said look there are people here. there are girls that haven't been to school. they are your age. they can even write their names. so i know you need me, i'm your mother. i will always be there for you but do you mind if i can stay here for a few years and help and take care of these girls and guide them and assist them in whatever way i can? they were so supportive.

i always tease them, you just wanted to do get there overnight from home. they said we heard your passion and we heard you on the phone and when we have time we will come and help you. so i really appreciated that. otherwise i could not been there. >> and word about the situation now. >> the situation now has changed as we all know we see it in the newspapers. i just came back on wednesday. things have changed and in afghanistan drastically if you look at it from 14 or 15 years ago when you look at women empowerment, education, health clinics, hospitals, the judicial system. everything is not 100% perfect but at least the seeds have been planted there. let's put it this way. the only thing that is really a

barrier to delopment of any country or anything you do in life is security. insecurity and corruption, two things. for example violations against women. i will give an example of that. first of all there is a justice system in afghanistan. we have a lot of good laws but there is no way of enforcing them. enforcing it -- i was there for three months. i ended up there for three months or so the security situation had really deteriorated. i knew a lot of businesses were closing and a lot of people were becoming unemployed so this kind of situation adds to the insecurity as well because when something goes wrong you don't know if it was da'ish will or

the person i was hungry, you don't know who did it so right now that's where things are, the security situation but even though it was this way, the security situation has deteriorated but we kept pushing. we don't stop. >> thank you. >> mrs. bush you went to afghanistan in 2005 and again in 2006 and 2008. can you talk a little bit about those trips, what you learned, some of the insights you have and perhaps some of the women that you met during those trips some of whom probably show up in your book now. >> i met the female governor there and bamiyan is the province that had the two huge towering buddhas that were carved into the mountain wall.

they knew what they looked like from photographs but by the time i had gone they had been mistreated and they were just rubble at the bottom of the huge niches that have been there since the sixth century payday been destroyed by the taliban so there was this contrast between the ancient civilization of afghanistan with these old buddhas that had destroyed and then the idea that there was a female governor which was the newer thing, newer since september 11. i remember having to see her and what that was like and have her allow us to be there and see her but then also this big symbol of the destruction of ancient, palimony really of afghanistan to. >> did you meet some of the women at the time that her new book now? >> i met most of the women that are in the book here in the u.s.

through various things. others would stories are here. when i've been on the book tour i have read from these stories. the one she tells us, the story of seeing the little boy without shoes polishing the shoes of someone else and have that picture in her mind and lead want to spend so much time there so that formed a lot of friendships with women in afghanistan and it's been, and some of them are here. some of the women in this book i know now that there are a few that are here as well today. >> i would like to go back to something you started. there are a lot of intermittent press coverage is here in afghanistan, most of it bad read security is getting bad.

the taliban are on the move and all the rest and i think we don't often appreciate how far the country has calmed. he started to talk a little bit about that. could use a little bit more about his really been accomplished here in the last 14 years or so? >> like i said earlier we have accomplished a lot. 15 years ago we didn't have girls going to school. we didn't have clinics for women. we didn't have ministers, we didn't have women in parliament. i can go on and on the come and on, especially business women, advocates. the first year when i was there, let me say to you this way. when i first went there i was looking for women that were doing handicraft. i was looking for them all over the place and you couldn't find them even on the streets.

so i went into hezbollah and i kept asking, i wanted to see 10 or 15 women that i could work with and i could talk to and maybe i could teach them something for empowerment purposes. he said okay when you come on a friday and i will go ahead and show you the women so that you can work with them. i didn't tell anybody where i was going because they knew if i told my dad i was going to this mosque he would have sent 10 guard with me or he would not let me go so i is afraid that i could go with my friends. to be honest with you i walked into that loss could. i saw hundreds and hundreds of women with burkas sitting there. their backs were facing me when i entered and i stood there and said you've got to be kidding me, what am i going to do with these hundreds and hundreds of women? i pretty much gave them a message and talk to them saying

that i'm here to help. i'm here to empower them so that they are not needy, they are not a charity case anymore because i'm very much against becoming a chair gates case for the afghan women. so you have to learn preview have two work and earn your money in order to raise her children and help your family and everyone. that is what encouraged me to put together an ngo so i put together an ngo for widows especially in their registered over 10,000 women with. we did an assessment and to be honest 10,000 women i had only 56 literate women, that's only high school and talking. high school, which some of them were eighth-grade, ninth-grade so they were totally killer of it -- totally it later it.

i was able to get funds from an institution and donors and i did the capacity building and tailoring, sewing and classes so we started expanding. looking today we see a lot of afghan women out there. this is what i try to compare and at that time you couldn't find anybody but now you find hundreds and thousands of women out there in the provinces or in kabul or in the media for example. you see them on television, journalists, the teachers. they are all over the place so it's not that difficult to find afghan women now, thank god. >> one of the things that were in mrs. bush pushes forward their statistics showing progress on education.

when it struck me teenage girls now 36% literacy, 37% of the teachers in afghanistan are now women so really remarkable progress. mrs. bush on the one of the things at the institute and the presidential library you have been very instrumental in the women's initiative that the bush institute continuing to the work he started as first lady. what kinds of at two kitties are going on within the project within the bush institute? >> at the bush institute we have had for classes of women fellowships, two from each of n. two from tunisia and we begin with those two countries because they were the first in the arab spring country so we bring women all from the same countries for fellowship so that when they go home they have each other and they can introduce each other to their colleagues and their

families and their networks. as a new professor who did research that shows your network is as important as your education level to your success. in societies where women are inside more, they build the kinds of networks that we as american women do. we had a chechen classes and tunisian fellows and we will do another group this year of egyptian fellows. i idea is to continue to focus on these two so when they go home they really have a broad network and the two groups and everybody else they have introduce each other to. so that's one of the things we are working on as part of our women's initiative. we have a women's health initiative. in africa we have added to tanzania and treatment for cervical cancer which is the

leading cause of cancer death among african women to do a platform that was set up when george was president, the president emergency plan for aids relief. it has help africans toga health infrastructure with pepfar money treating aids to start with but now adding the testing and treatment and adding cancer cancer to that's a better global health initiative which of course is focused on women as well. we have the first lady's initiative really began with conferences in africa with african first ladies to talk about how they can use their roles in their country's welfare husband to heads of state while working on issues to help them. we have matched them with ngo for corporations that are acting in their countries and talk about good governance. one african woman said willie no

government pay for your clothing and we said no, they didn't. they said no they did not but we do talk about good governance and the way first ladies can help and i would braude to more than just african first ladies. we have a first lady's initiative and first ladies from all around the world. who bears a charity. she's the head of our women's initiative. [applause] and then of course the u.s. i have women's council. we just came from a meeting here afghan first ladies are part of our project as well working with

they are still learning. the whole country knows all the women and their rights but they are still learning. the other thing is they have learned how to advocate. their spirit is high over time. one thing i found about afghan women no matter if it was afghanistan or bad days, doesn't matter. they are, how bad it is, they have a high spirit to their very brave, they are very courageous and they have the strong inner hope that keeps them going all the time. i have seen women that have

really been through a lot of hardship and it just surprises me that how she comes to work the next day with a smile on her face and you don't know what she has been through. it's a mask that she wears i call it. it's the mask she wears in order to look strong, to move on and to convince her children and her family it's okay, that everything would be fine. of course just like everybody else afghan-led men are like the other women in the world to there are not any different than the afghan women and the differences, what kind of opportunities are given to them and what kind of opportunities are given to us, that's the difference. and their security also plays a major role for them. afghan women and overall they

are in high spirits and their dream is to be just like everybody else, and normal mother, a normal life, a normal citizen and they just want to live just like everybody else. even though like i said things are really getting rough these days. i don't know if you've seen the news how they are pushing the case. they are going in there advocating and this is all over the place. this is an example so nothing stops them. >> we are going to turn shortly to questions from the audience. we will try to get to as many as we can. i have a question for both of you before we do that. one is to on balance are you hopeful for the future of afghanistan and what can be the international community and we

as americans do to try to sustain the gains that have been made? >> i'm hopeful and i'm hopeful because of what mina said. i do know the spirits in afghan women and i think that comes across in the book and the stories of women who were interviewed in the book. so tt makes me hopeful. i also think the whole international community, we in the united states as well as the whole international community need to continue to do whatever we can to support women in afghanistan and support the afghan people. we need to help them build an economy so people can have jobs, so people can make money, so people can become independent. those are the things that we need to continue to do but i also was -- when president obama chose to keep our troops there. i think we need to keep the troops there we needed to make sure that afghanistan has the

security to be able to build the stability to form their government and continue to work on what they are working on. i know mrs. ghani the first lady of afghanistan. she's a member of our u.s. women's afghan council and she sent a message to us. she is hoping to build a women's university with women professors so when the traditional father still want their daughters to go to university because they are going with men or having them professors that there would be an option for women. i think that's a good way that americans can support her and that is to try to help in that way to build a women's university. obviously the most important thing is the security. the chips can help on that. >> mina same question to you. are you hopeful? >> i knowledged this is both --

i acknowledge mrs. bush. security is the number one thing. without security you cannot move forward. everything starts collapsing around you. and we don't want the international community. we have started something at that the international community and we have to continue and make it solidified, make it happen and show the world that we were there not 15 or 20 or 30 years and it happen. you don't just want to leave a country in chaos, when it's in chaos. that shows failure of the international community so we have to continue what we are doing and we have to pour more money into development of the military. if we have capable people and people have food on the table and they have jobs why would you need a military?

this is a question for me because i'm not a politician to that i'm an activist so this question comes to me all the time. so for me first comes the development. yes we do have to train our military because of our neighbors but if you have good citizens and if you don't have hungry citizens who can be bought by your neighbors or by any politician or anybody, i mean you would have a civil country but unfortunately for the past 14 or 15 years a lot of money has been given but it hasn't been poured into the development side of it. the military and police have not been very fact of either save and now the money, a lot of money has been allocated to the defense military but i think if

we could just add to that and add more money to develop people to give them jobs to. jobs. the other thing that has happened with the training, we train so we don't follow. we can train all we want. there should have follow-up follow up role now, maybe up to a year, not short-term but long-term. we can do the training one month, two months or everybody leaves so we have so my men and done. we have to follow up with. if this training was effective rate if it wasn't effective which we do to make it effective because we have party given a lot of money and we want to see a result that successful to everybody, to the donor, to the afghan people, to everyone. that's where i'm coming from.

i don't want anybody to leave but to get more money added to the development side of it. >> it is a security issue as well and in fact i think one of the reasons the taliban that the little boys were put in these madrasahs, their parents put them there because they were hungry and they got fed. so food does end up being a security issue as well. i've been reading this one part of the book that i think it's what we are talking about right now. the rest of the world we live in a fast-paced life. want everything to happen in front of our eyes. we don't think about the future. we don't invest in the future unfortunately and that needs to change. i'm sure other nations have done through the societal change probably hundreds of years ago. i think it will happen in afghanistan. we just have to be patient and not give up because once you

give up your have to start from scratch all over again. >> talking about the nonsecurity side and an issue that is very dear to the heart of usip, this is a question from barbara from pae for both of you. the u.s. government is implementing the largest rule of law program of its kind in the world and afghanistan. what should be its focus in the next five to 10 years particularly as it pertains to women and girls? mina do you want to take a shot at that one? >> sure. like i mentioned earlier the rule of law, we have laws. we have many laws that need to be enforced. we have to learn how to enforce laws and how to use laws. i remember i did have in my ngo for two months i had training

for lawyers. this was probably 10 years ago and it was very interesting for me to find out that one of the lawyers was being abused by her husband at home but then she would get out and go to court and try to defend everybody else. when i found that out i sat her down. i said if you cannot defend yourself how can you defend others? she started crying. she goes even when i'm standing there trying to defend others i'm not making it because the judges that are there are they have party been paid or they are stronger than me or the one who is across the table from me the other judge, their opponent or the lawyer is stronger than me and i always get defeated. this is why any this training. we need to really focus on women and judges and the attorneys

starting from the university. that's where we need to start working. we need second and third year of the law university to start taxing with them in advocating for them and teaching them how to defend themselves first. in the house if you cannot defend yourself within your own circle then you cannot defend yourself outside or defend anybody else. i also know lawyers and attorneys in afghanistan that are women who are very tough but there are just a few. there are that many. i think we need to focus on the other generation that are going to be the next lawyers because the lawyers that are there are from the past, maybe 45 or 50 at that age. i'm not trying to discriminate or anything, it's really hard for them to change their way of work and their way of limitation

and attitudes. one thing we can focus on is the younger generation and teach them to be the real lawyers to be in that court to when to go with an attitude that i can when that's what i think he. >> good job. >> they are all hard. there are two that are related. one comes from marissa at georgetown university and there's a question for sub five. i would like to first ask this one with and again for both of you. this is from the afghan news. i probably mispronounced it and i apologize. there is then on-again off-again peace talks with the taliban,

on-again off-again. who do the women mrs. bush that you work with and some of the women in the book that you know and have talked to him apu as well are their fears about a peace agreement between the afghan government and the taliban about what it will mean for women and what it will mean to the progress that women have achieved since 2001? >> it depends on what you give up. the latest i read is they left the table. did they come back or does anybody know here back. >> the taliban has left the table recently in the last couple of days. heck mati are has indicated he is willing to participate in the

afghan peace process. so it's still on-again off-again but the question is really there are some anxieties. >> there are a lot of anxieties especially among women in this peace process. if you look at the whole picture the overall picture, you have a peace council that was created years ago. we have 70 men and five women who were six women how do you arrive at peace tax. >> they were five or six women that were select did. they also cater to whatever that 65 or 70 men are saying. women are a minority and women are scared. they have anxiety and again they are fighting this and everywhere

they -- every way they can than they are. so they aren't sacrificed during the peace process. during the taliban times when women were secluded from everything and we don't want that had happen again. we have gained so much for the past 14 years and there is no way we will sacrifice that, no way. i could tell you this because i come from, i always have these gatherings of women and when they come for these meetings you should see their faces. over my dead body. that is how they speak. there is no way i'm going to give up what i have gained in 14 years as politicians, i'm sorry. sacrifice my right in order to bring peace. that is not peace at the end of

the day. we are isolating half of the population so i don't think it will happen. it's just an ongoing thing. there is a lot more involved with it. it is what our neighbor country is asking for. they're asking for a lot of things that the afghan people are not going to give up so that's my understanding of the peace council. >> we have talked a lot about women and girls an important role they have in afghan society and the important role in peacebuilding. one of the things that came up at a meeting earlier today was related to this question that is unsigned if you will. how important our efforts to reach men and boys in addition to women and girls if we are to change the culture and values of society?

>> it is important to reach men and boys. i said earlier at a women's council meeting one of my friend said to to me about the why you were working with the women, it's the men that need the work. [laughter] and there are efforts and we did hear that a meeting earlier to work with men and boys especially to talk about peace and conflict resolution. i think what happens is these boys were parented the ones that are grown up now that her terrorists are in the taliban. they didn't have parents to teach them how to be men and taught them how to live. instead they were sent to these madrasahs and they were brainwashed and they were not taught about how to get along with people. that is what is good family does , a mother and a father and

that is teach all the children the boys and the girls how to get along with other people and other people's lives matter. >> mina or it's. >> i agree with mrs. bush but there's one thing about being in afghanistan for the past 14 years that i recognize. it's important to work with the boy with the boys and with the men because of the men and the boys are brought up they don't have any problems in the meantime what have they done to this -- these men and it's because the boy that was born 30 years ago he was born during the war and you have to be protective of the women and children and the girls during the war. so then the taliban came and that was like icing on the cake

for this whole thing. that boy has been raised with that type of mentality. don't show your woman, don't show the girls and right now we are going through social change. it's going to take time. it's probably going to take another generation or two for men to come out and say yeah it's okay in a very normal way that we are doing it here. it's okay if my daughter goes to work. it's okay if my daughter goes to the movies. it's okay if my wife does this or that or my wife. right now we see the challenges because of the war. the war has brainwashed the men and afghanistan. that generation is still there and are going to be there for another 30 years but it's going to take a long time, maybe two or three generations until we really see the change.

>> this is a related question from a student at george mason university. it's a long but it's a good one. as a first-generation afghan american i've been raised to learn how to balance my afghan heritage and my western surroundings. given that afghanistan has a patriarchal structured society what clashes are complex have you seen arise in resistance to women's equality that some may view as a western idea rather than afghan idea and how is balance created with tradition and the so-called western idea of women's equality and empowerment? >> go ahead. >> the first thing that is very common is the word gender. the word gender in afghanistan,

gender is equality and empowerment between men and women. they know what it means. it includes male and female but when you talk about gender in afghanistan they all think women they think it's a western thing to have equal rights for women well to be honest with you in islam we do have equal rights for women. there are rights for women. there are good rights for women and what happened in the beginning only offers went everybody went and without doing their homework. everybody brought in the western ideas and unloaded in afghanistan without thinking. what is the culture what is the acceptance of all of these things. how would people take this so when we started with this gender training it didn't go very well.

so you had to rename these things and really let people know what it really means and as an afghan american when i've been there i have watched. they would perceive you as an afghan, no problem but later in the day they would say okay, you are here, i know you are helping me. i know you did this for me but you have a passport and you were going to leave. you have that option and i always tell them yes i have that option but i'm here no matter what. that's one of the reasons for the perceptions. afghan people, they really have to trust you. i don't blame them for not trusting anybody because to be honest everybody has come in and left in ruin and took so they

don't trust anybody. it has to do with the war and the way they have achieved it. now for the past 14 years thanks to international communities, thanks to all the donors. they have been there and it pushed these issues for women with politically to be in the senate, to be in the parliament, to be in the government. but still they have these doubts and until you overcome these doubts with western issues anything you put forward they will think twice whether it comes from germany, it comes from egypt where it comes from america, doesn't matter as long as it's from a foreign entity they think twice. they just don't want to go for anything anymore. or will think twice and say yes

or no. >> thank you very much. regrettably we have come to the end of our time and i want to thank everyone who has submitted questions he might apologies to those who submitted questions that we didn't get to. i would like to turn to our panelists and ask for a last word. >> that would like to introduce the women who are in this book. could you all stand? the women who have come that are in the book. [applause] i also want to say i think we have left to pick up a picture. it's not as bad as we'd made it sound today. it is important that we all stay involved as americans in afghanistan. it's important that we keep our troops there and to try to get get -- give afghans the security

and for security as they continue to build their country and all the international community to continue to do the things they are doing. our meeting earlier with u.s. afghan women's council one of the things we saw were so many non-profits have gone in. maybe we have to figure out how to get the for-profits in afghanistan. [applause] so people can be employed and make money and try to figure out how to develop the country so that the afghan government can stand up and be the ones that take care of things in afghanistan. >> mina. >> i just want to add something to all of this. when i saw the book mrs. bush i am really honored as always to be around you and i am thankful to the u.s. afghan council. they have done an incredible job when i saw the book he reminded

me, it took me back to 14 years ago so i want to read something to you. the honorable mrs. bush i would like to thank you on behalf of of afghan men and women for all the work you have been supporting and the care you have given to the afghan women and children. i gave my first -- in chicago in 2004 in front of 400 american businessmen and women. i have to convince many leaders with my speech to believe than afghan women's capacity and to fund the projects. after a long speech i ended up with the following sentence with a lot of hope. this is what the afghan woman says.

still after her pain she says i feel like the thunder, the dark days and the storm have left. the sun is out now. i just started blooming like euros. this rose needs tender loving care to fully bloom. i do not want to die again. mrs. bush, who through your leadership you haven't played a major role in watering the seeds by building capacity and today you have recognized that blooming flowers in your book because 14 years ago was not possible and i thank you from my heart. >> thank you mina. thank you so muc thank you very much. [applause] thanks everybody.