i love him in a category without sharpton because cornell west is always trotted out that the mainstream media. when i was growing up, my parents never gave me a memo that i had to have black people speak on my behalf because my parents grew up during the segregated south and they were called the. my parents had to sit in the back of the bus in richmond, virginia. they always taught me to speak for myself as a black woman. ..

then i'm trying to dig up what all that means.

this book i started, i was thinking about this book two or three books ago, but i didn't really have an answer. i was getting increasingly concerned about why things were not working out quite like they could be or should be. why was digital technology not yielding the burning man like wave that i'd imagine society becoming in the early '90s. and i couldn't put my finger on exactly what it was. i understood that young developers were taking too much money too early and then having to change their companies in order to deliver what they wanted 100 times return for killing the actual idea and so i started writing about that. i decide when i was going to write this book i understood what the problem was but i

didn't understand what the solution was. i said if i get a year or so to write a book i will figure out not only what's wrong but how to fix it. >> since most people haven't read the book i'm guessing does it come out today, to want to talk about what the problem like what your soundbite for getting people to understand the problem? >> the main problem is that we come in a nutshell, this has got to be unpacked i just come but in a nutshell what we've done is we've optimized the digital economy for the accumulation of capital instead of optimize it for the velocity of money. the velocity of money is much more consonant with the distributed architecture of the internet itself. and would lead to a whole lot more happiness than what we've got. the easiest way to understand the problem is that there's all

these great developers were willing to disrupt one industry or another. they will disrupt publishing or disrupt music but then as soon as they've got the idea down, they run to the equivalent of goldman sachs or morgan stanley and they surrendered the disruptive idea to another operating system that to ac actd as if it isn't even that there. they assume that venture capital an ipo and acquisitions, stockbug and 100 times return but that's just this pre-existing condition of nature. that's the real system that we have to somehow succumb to. so it is something, when i saw, and these are friends of mine. we all have friends who are billionaires which a string -- strange in itself but i saw the founders of twitterers on the cover of "the wall street journal" today the other ipo. and each of their faces was the

number of billion dollars for each of them were worth. i'm thinking, ma i know two different people who are worth over $5 billion each but i found myself feeling sorry for them because i realized these are the guys, they disrupted visa and mastercard with paypal originally. they disrupted journalism with twitter. and now here they were surrendering what they had done and surrendering all the disruption to the biggest, baddest industry on the block. when they let you ring the bell at the nasdaq stock exchange, and clap for you, it's not because you done something disruptive. [laughter] is because you've confirmed the premises of corporate capital to the whole scheme. you've enslaved yourself and your company now to pivoting towards 100 x. or thousand x.

return and away from whatever yoitdid. so now we are here with twitter. one of my favorite apps, twitter 140 character app that makes $500 million a quarter and that's considered an abject failure by wall street. that's a failure in the company us to go become what, video advertising and where those twitter? what i want to do is figure out what they've done and what could we do to have a development path that leads to something other than just magnifying this growth imperative which is driving us off a cliff. >> you talk a little bit about what companies can do and what individuals can do. this role for government to play as well, public policy, so like how do we incentivize change? if the system is in place how are going to start to take down the system? >> i hate to sound libertarian

but i will for a moment, because i'm not, but one thing the government can do nature of the regulations. i'm not saying deregulate the marketplace to wall street can go crazy or deregulate so that you can have rich. what i'm saying is don't right now regulation are not really being made in -- the people to write the regulations on the very largest players in the industry. so when a simple non-tech example would be there was a big lead paint scare in the toy industry a bunch of years ago. a bunch of toys had red paint in a. they were all outsourced from china. they came in, they have lead paint. we are going to form a commission, gave the leaders of industry together, the lives of government and come up with regulation to prevent this from happening again. the regulations they came up with was a testing process the

required $40,000 per point that you can release on the market. what you small toy manufacture spoke to do with the? if you make handcrafted toy change want to sell to a toy store, how do you participate in that? you can't. industry used the own mistake, their own problem of big industry as an excuse to regular to marketplace so that it would advantage and even more. so regulation right now favors the largest players on the block. the reason why gruber commitment in europe is because they have a war chest. the investment in uber is nothing for the at the investment is paying to deregulate the market place in their favor. that's one. the other biggie, and it's a simple tax shift, is, the simple way to say it is right now, i

sound like bernie -- [laughter] right now spirit should people write you in? >> no. are simple public attacks. is that capital gains are taxed much, much less than real earnings, then dividends. so what is that? if you thinking of it as a computer program, people who make money by simply having money don't have to pay taxes but people who make money by earning money have to pay taxes. what are you build into that system? if you want to optimize your economy for the accumulation of capital, for the extraction of poker chips from the playing board into the accounts of shareholders, to optimize it that way. if you want optimize economy for the circulation of capital through the society so people can create and exchange value between each other thing you want to reverse that bias. you what taxes on dividends and earnings to be really low and

taxes on capital accumulation to be high. >> so how do we make that happen? how do we get people to change in what people who are here due in day-to-day choices or in choices with their starters they're working on? >> the easy way to this empower the sitting backs of capital that are there is to try, in some ways, try to ignore them, which is hard to do. you create an application with two friends, and you can build it pretty much on a laptop and then use a scalable server. even go to amazon cloud, i don't care. go do something scalable. you don't need tens of millions of dollars to get to the next level. once you bring those people than now you're in a different game. now you're no longer building a business for the prosperity of

that business. now you're building a business in order to sell it. so if your goal is to create a thriving sustainable business, then think twice about selling it. don't sell it. hold onto it. so that's sort of number one. as individuals each really, as consumers you can make way better choices about how you buy things. if someone buys my book from a local bookseller instead of from amazon, and i mean their local bookseller, now there is money that is circulating in their community. that's a dollar more, a dollar more for that book which we see that don't circulate to your community five times. so you're going to get that dollar five more times than you would if you spent it at amazon that goes into shareprice or spend it at a company that will take a loss on the book so they can hop over to what's called another vertical and take that over.

like, they don't care about the books. they care about the monopoly. it's a very different thing. if you're organizing a company, consider how can your company make everyone who touches your company wealthy. the traditional corporate and daschle tactic is to look at everybody else as a resource to extract value from them. if you are extracting value from your customer base, eventually they get too poor to be your customer. that's the problem wal-mart is happening now. the towns wal-mart has gone into are going bankrupt. now wal-mart is closing stores and the towns are having to figure out how do we rebuild the local infrastructure. how do we create a drugstore and a bookstore and everything else that we need to replace this big vacuum that came to our community and wiped out our connective tissue? companies can start thinking about communicating with their shareholders get early. so instead of being beholden to the growth of the shareprice,

start telling your shareholders they are going to get dividends, they are going to earn real money for owning a portion of your company. create companies as platform cooperatives where your workers are always in the company. there's a confederate of trantwelve, same idea except they pay more and the drivers own 50% of the company. what does that mean? it means that when the company eventually pivots, as they all will, to mechanical cars driven by computers, you haven't and research and development for the thing that will replace you. you've replace you. uganda research and development for the company that you own. so now the drivers are going into in your work, your job has been replaced by to income has been taken away because you own the thing. these are really, they sound complicated but they are really simple things to do. the basic steps yet to think of

things we are in the digital age. if you think of the mechanisms that you are using and the instructor putting into place. get to think of them like programs that are going to keep going, that are going to operating principles and bias of them towards circulation, bison towards making people wealthy. i promise you, if you have a business that's making its customers wealthy, that's making its suppliers wealthy, that's making its competitors wealthy, they will keep you a round. but it's just that the way we think. make other people wealthy? yes, make them wealthy so they can buy stuff from you. it's not rocket science to do that. >> to that point that's another policy discussion, building a ad mechanisms for other types of businesses. cooperative businesses off the bottle are not actually possible in a lot of places. >> likely there's things like the corpse, a lot of alternative

corporate structures you can doctor now that let you value things other than your fiduciary responsible to shareholders. from an economic perspective, it understand that when you take in capital and to let a venture capitalist be in charge of the company, then the only contribution he's going to down to is capital. but if you understand economics, you understand there's three main factors of production. capital is one of them, but land and labor are the other two. this is back to adam smith and any economist, any libertarian will tell you land, labor and capital. how do we value the land and labor i can't? that's by building into the core of the company to understand that there are three kinds of contributions, and all three have to be reported by the company. you can't look at a company as venture capital that's extracting value from land and labor, or you end up with a world that's going to die and

with people with no jobs. >> it's interesting, like you mentioned why, nader earlier and a portion of why people go into them are for the vc funded. it's also the metric model. toshiba know how to do this? i think the answer is probably they don't but if they are not come as some needs to change the visor getting, i can build a better support system for changing the thinking about how business happens? arthur things exists? doesn'destiny to be a special different type of incubator that focuses on this type of model? hype we change the community around -- >> i mean, let's do it. is part of why we are. part of what i wrote this book is that they here's a manual, to begin to understand what went wrong and understand how to do it right. the people around them talk to trevor shaw at the new school who started the whole

organization on a platform cooperatives with nathan schneider. talk to michelle balance at the peer-to-peer foundation. gotye p2p.net, dr. robin and employment, spiral in new zealand. there are a lot of groups out there. a lot of that are looking at block chain, love those folks are so looking at how can we do and a peer-to-peer way. those efforts get sidetracked fast because people invest in them. bitcoins, bitcoins. once you see the link of lost twins, stay way. honestly i feel like a lot of people no in their got what they're doing right. it's not rocket science. the young people when they're in the dorm room in stanford or columbia to come up with that

idea, i feel like so many of them would be better off with $50,000 no mentorship, than $5 million the mentorship they're getting. the mentorship they are getting, they are not done. they are smart people. but they're smart a doing it for particular thing which is bringing something to exit. bringing something to an exit event. i've got friends, david is in you write down with a product called ready which is just gotten away from venture capital and now he's like we can just do this thing, you know? it used to be called bootstrapping. these days about bootstrapping but it used to be just called building a business. you get some revenue, use some of that to live and some to invest back in the company. a slower growth thing but when you grow slower, so much easier to develop a product to customers like because then you can see your customer reaction. you can use good old-fashioned

quarters and semiannual feedback and a just and change. you are not stuck on the clock of 18 months, i've got 18 months to turn this thing around. that's not fair to any business that's in the real world. >> can i think of the initiatives that you just mentioned, how many people in the room know of one of them, have part of one of them? okay, that's about 10 hands. >> you for a lot of them. you've heard of louisville, there's a lot of them you won't hear of. cycle of the best candidates for president you probably never heard of. just because you don't know them doesn't mean they are not great. a lot of them are local. there is nothing wrong with creating a business that doesn't scale up. not everything scales a. scale enough is an artifact of in social age where you've got to become one, the winner, the king of the hill. you can be one of many in your business. that's actually cool.

there used to be these skills. there were many people build bridges and it houses and choose and the ideals and the share technologies and innovations with each other. they understood if advocates better we are all doing better. they built a culture about what to do. the economic term is a genie number. excessive fidgeting number if it's at zero it means everything is toshiba anywhere. if the coast what it means all the money has been scooped up by one player. it feels like the digital economy is structured so that they will be one big winner. i got a poker game at the end about whether one guy gets all the chips. will be jeff bezos, mark zuckerberg, sergei? who's going to get everything? that's because they are so addicted to skew. even in our good lefty progressive world, i have so many kids come up to me and i want, i want to create a platform that can aggregate all

of the websites that are aggregating the people who are doing social change. everybody wants to do that because everyone's got the thing that frames the thing that frames the thing. that's sort of industrial age thinking and it's not as much fun as just doing the thing locally. it's so hard in the world we all want 20,000 twitter followers and we all want the recognition but the satisfaction you get in creating like a green like a bookstore in greenpoint and having a commute of people who love what you do that you're supporting becoming a human scale economies are local. when they are local the necessary respect the land. when their local the necessary respect labor because those are the people who are paying the taxes to put your kids to school. so you need everybody to be participating. it's so much more enjoyable. you can come up with some mechanisms people can model and lots of different places, but in terms of having a satisfying

business, this is part of what we are retreating in the digital age, isn't it almost medieval approach to business. where it's part of my city, part of the place i live and to do something. we make fun of people making art is no beers and heritage games or whatever. one of the wealthiest people do when they retire? they go and make beer and jams and forget since then. it's fun to do. if you can do it in a way that supports your committee and they're doing something that supports you, you start to see not all of it but a larger percentage of economic activity into taking place in this sphere between people on a more local scale. and yeah, you're going to still buy her iphones from apple and multinational conglomerates but it doesn't have to be the entire economy. >> i was on the phone with the night last week and he was

telling me about what started as occupy movement in taiwan and a lot of organizing on tranfour for that group and a lot of them have come together and had a turning point and all right, we do you. we are in. what we need to do. and fired a bunch of them. so what you're seeing is these now activists becoming government employees and starting to do process of change internally. i was listening to him and i was, that sounds awesome. like how does that come had recess see something that happened? their inklings of it, i think some of it still going on but it's less of a narrative we are seeing at the moment, especially today on election day. how do we change that or how do we find those local stories and get people paying attention to the local issues and the sort of local economy questions? is that possible? what needs to be the bridging point i guess it sort of the

question. >> the attention-getting media that we currently employed are not the very best ones for telling the kinds of stories that you are talking about. in other words, donald trump insulting black people is way better than general assembly tool employed for civic engagement in thailand. but the people in thailand where that app is being used in the padding oliver experienced -- lived experience. i'm becoming okay with national global media being the disconnected freak show that it is, as long as i've got a real-life of actual connections

with other people that is something else. the big picture of what we are doing is reasserting the human agenda. that's really what we are doing. my bigger case is to get people to join team human, rather than team computer or team capitalism our team system. we are mistaking the metrics that we put on the wall for the betterment of humanity. and the way to get in touch with what's good for people really is on a local level. there's these good old-fashioned things like making eye contact with people. it's so rich. it's like such a weird thing to do if you that i want for so much of her life. make eye contact with people. sick in spaces with people. see how your town is actually functioning. go to a school board meeting, join a community supported

agriculture group, set up a local currency in your town. there's so many things you can do. and no, you're not going to get, i think you might get some late-night msnbc small business innovation. you might get a little something, but in some ways getting a lot of media attention or something in some ways is a very first indicator. it's the reverse indicated because it means that in some way if they've been able to frame it as part of industrialism as, this is going to scale up, this is going to work for everybody. the fact is things work differently about different places. some of those models can be modeled and shared, but they are always going to between and that's what you want to be able to do. the beauty of the digital age, this is the digits, the thing is, it's a hands-on thing. it can restore the human scale to stop. when you are restoring human scale you start thinking less in terms of let's put this big shopping mall there, and rather

how are we going to create circulation of currency between the business people in our king of the already. i don't mean to not answer the question but i think the object of the game is not to get attention for the ideas. that's my job right now. i wrote this book. i'm going to go out and stump and fight nobly some people read it. that's what books were for, to disseminate. the boy scout manual was one of them. this is another one. it's as easy as pdf. the trap we don't want to get into sort of a trap that obama fell into after the stock market crash is to think that okay, business as usual, what do we do? i've got to get a bank to lend money to build a factory the downside people to get them jobs. that's the thing that just failed. what he should've done was sent a pdf delancey and said here's how you set up a time bank.

here's how you set up her favorite thing. here's i do local currency so that people understand. if the of people with skills in people with needs, that's all you need for an economy. that's all we used to need for an economy that's why in the book like all the way back to lebanon, -- 1100, the last time we had market consist of only good for the day that were biased towards transaction. how to get people to bread to eat, the chicken state, the shoes they need and to invest in the local bridge? that was what they were thinking and optimize their currency for the. the problem was wealthy people were getting less wealthy as a middle-class rose so that made local currencies illegal. you hav had to borrow money froe central bank. they made been in business for so illegal. they created the chart of monopoly which became the corporation today. today's platform monopoly is defended by technology, by. [speaking spanish]

kind of technology, meaning these of when we technologies, once you bring this technology into your business come into your life it's hard to get it out because you come depend on the. they use what's called defensible outcomes. that's the start of term. you want defensible outcomes. that means people use what you've got but then can go do something else. that's not the way to do business. >> some of what you're getting at seems to me like it's just at odds with using technology to solve a problem. want to do things i think about when you look at something like tranfour, the technology isn't super crazy out of their advance. it's a pretty simple tool. what it comes down to is people enforcing the rules of using that tool. it is about human interaction. it's just easy to use tool. >> i'm not a techno solution is. i don't think there's a computer program we write a new offering system that changes everything.

there's not an app to fix this. we can't just do an update overnight and in the economy and the government and everything works. it doesn't happen like that. but we have moved from a broadcast era, an electronic age into a digital age. we are living in what is called a digital media environment. that doesn't mean digital just that we all could use digital tools but it means the way in which we make decisions is going to be informed by a more digital programmatic algorithmic sensibility. and that's one that is without to us. these are simple human solutions. they are not complicated technologies. it's not a matter of better encryption. it's a matter of better listening. it's a matter of better connection, better contact. >> the things i think that's interesting is right now we have to focus on the tool solving the

problem. even when we tell the stories with our good things happen we focus on the technology as opposed to the human interacti interaction. >> the perfect ted talk. >> what it's about, the tools to facilitate will get in the room together. even taking twitter as an example, when people organize online to end up somewhere together to do something. which we still see a lot of but how do you negotiate adequate how does twitter stay running? if you have to figure something out to function. they could ask for donations from people the same way we did. >> disco private, get out from under their shareholders. they are more than profitable. that's kind of an easy win. one. i did this talk along time ago were i quoted timothy leary who is doing these talks at berkeley and a girl had just had her first big psychedelic spend. she got up and she said doctor

leary, the experience and i understand where all connect. now what? what do i do. he said find the others. i gave a talk will explain that and then scott was at that talk in that week he came up with you did to do meet up. the idea was let's do something that's like yahoo! groups except the purpose is to get people connecting and real places off-line. to facilitate the real world rather than replace it. the only people who want the net to replace the real world are people who don't mean it's any good. these are people who want to just market as the death and monetize our social graph and make our behaviors more predictable. that's what they did is for. vegas big data of our past to advertise the future to us that we have not yet realized we're going to live. and turn us from 80% probability of going down to lifestyle path to 90%. they are trying to reduce i'm

not most, strange unique human behavior in order to amp up their return. technology should be for the opposite purpose. technology should just get us together and get out of the way. we are all here for so much time to let's say you've got 100 years, what you want to be without? do you want to do that with google cardboard? or do want to do that with -- its 3-d already. [laughter] [applause] >> i feel like a typical to see if people have questions. i'm seeing there is a hand back there. >> i'm a little bit confused. he began with the argument that velocity of money, superior. you articulated a bunch of ways in which community-based solutions can develop good for

both economic and social and moral and all those sorts of things. but at some point along the way you noted, and you still going to have your iphone that got made and there. so i'm really curious about where is the division between this community-based economy, this prioritization of the velocity of money, and what other things that either must or ought remain in a more industrialized society? >> i'm not the head of the pole broke psychic, -- politburo psyching come up with a specific plan. right now i would guess we are at like a 90%-10% industrial to local balance. in what we do. and what i would encourage is that we make more of our choices on a local scale and then start to see how that balances out.

there will still be wal-marts but i think there could be fewer of them. it's about balance. i don't think it, we don't crash the gates. this is not about the revolution will be go and take down the big companies. they are all going to come. there are some things that industrialism usually good for. making power plants, making cars. there's a lot of stuff that it's good at the thought of stuff it's doing that it doesn't need to do like industrial agriculture which is ultimately less efficient. it's less resource efficient than promote culture or organic farming. it just is but its regular into existence. have you looked at a map lately of the topsail condition of america, much less the world? we screwed it up. we've addicted our crop to industrial agriculture. so unwinding that slow is something i'd like to see. it might mean in some cases

eating food that happens to be available in that season. but then you start to fight out that i'm not getting sick because i'm not eating stuff that my body isn't kind of ready to be eating. when you start doing, youstart reading all your natural happy stuff and whether wt and what season, and that happens to just grow like this. it's not a matter of me saying we've got to stop all this and do all that, but to say that start making some choices, that there's a whole lot of companies that could be structured in ways that promote more eager local activity or promote the velocity of money. so wal-marts biggest competitor now is window. it's a giant supermarket chain. they had these big box stores and they're taking wal-mart down. and the difference is winco is owned by the employees.

winco is a cool. when you talk of efficiencies, wal-marts efficiencies were going to pay these workers as little as possible and whether health care be taken care by welfare because they don't make enough money to even have insurance. that's the way of cutting corners. winco's way of cutting corners say will not have shareholders that we have the money to. we dusted take 90% of our draw -- of our profits. they just want their money. so it is possible. as you do that is going to be less shareholding opportunities for people. then what do we do? then went to start investing locally. invest in the local pizzeria, in the local bookstore. you going to get in at the ground level because you know that guy. you are not buying shares retail 90 layers of investment after. if you're buying a stock, you're at the bottom of the pyramid. that's by definition it is a stock is available to you can't it's too late. it's too late. but if you can actually support

a local business, this is what i've been suggesting to banks is that instead of just linking, if the pizzeria wants to ban and have a couple no bathrooms and another dining room, instead of just giving the pizzeria got $100,000 tha that is going to py back with interest, what did he give him $50,000 contingent on his ability to raise the of the $50,000 from the community and to give them a nice little iphone tools he can raise come $100 from someone, get one at from someone, get one at all from a patron and they get $100 worth of pizza when the new restaurant opens. now the person has got a 20% return in a for sure which is more delicate and a smith barney again. the pizzeria can pay back in a pizza if the bank is a longer seen as the pure extract value from the community but is the facilitator of community reinvestment in that community. with it $100 i've got a bigger pizzeria on my main street, a more thriving main street. my property values go.

tax base goes up, schools get better. what happened? it's really simple. it's a matter of we balance in, not shooting the banks out of the room but helping them participate as partners in a human economy rather than just as the extractors value from human activity. >> thank you for all of us. i am someone who did not read the book. my speed reading skills on up there. i'm really listening to bring up these examples and i'm also reminded that for all the ones you say like they can do this and hav they have done this or whatever, i'm thinking also about the places that of the problems. rei is a member owned co-op and they found some labor problems lately. just being a member owned co-op or just the local to start ensure that all these evils are a way. that's the one point about it. this isn't necessarily a panacea

for all things. the other thing is green light bookstore jim golick richard is in -- >> sorry. >> they're doing the funding model for the second store which is in park slope. i think about as good agenda. of the bookstore and i thought about investing but also occurred to me that they're going to do in park slope it what's the chance of going to get in east new york? they are not. so while it is great local model that spawned out of the comedic of those committees without development the question becomes how do we ensure that they're able to participate? say which will about wal-mart, at least it's bringing to those communities something. maybe it's taking more but at least how do we can ensure commuters and regulation favors the big players, we want regular that. how to put a mechanism in place that ensures equity into this model? >> this is not a phenomenon of

the cultural creators of ithaca. all the stories about local currency, always talk of ithaca or berkeley or somewhere but it's also happening in east lansing. and in the steel belt. look at what carter did in the south bronx. in some ways the people who are experiencing the greatest economic hardship have the least attachment to these bankrupt models and the most willingness to do things. when i think about what's going to happen i feel like either were going to do this by choice, and those of us who have a choice to do it on the best position to do it by choice, oil going to do by necessity the way they did back in the depression. that's when we saw different kinds of community script evolved and all sorts of commie plots. so no, as far as green light,

the popes who came up with the theory of this judaism and subsidiary and is in response to marxism, the popes got asked, what are you guys, communists or capitalists? they said well, kind of both. we believe in the free market, people should have the ability to make money but we also believe in this thing we called this judaism. what they believe was that workers should have access to the means of production -- distributed some. they should own to these other production because honestly can't then you will participate. the other thing argued with something they called subsidiary of some. the principle of subsidiary is in mint at this is shouldn't be bigger than it needs to be in order to do what it does. so they would probably argue look, you probably shouldn't open a second store in park slope it what you should probably do find some in park

slope and teach them how you get what did to show them. if you want to give you a level percent for bringing them a model for bringing them the molotov attack don't you, then fine but don't expand, don't grow for the sake of doing it. trust, it's got to work for itself. and if green light doesn't work at the skillet operate in its own, if it needs to get order to do what it does, it needs to look at how it's operating again. it needs to look out it is creating value in this committee. if it has a growth imperative, if this company needs to grow in order to stay alive, then it either has not found the right size or it hasn't found the right model yet. >> two things. how do you feel your ideas work and work with a look to start a business based against in survival odds trying stand out against large competitors, let's say a new site try to come. they can't afford google add-ons

to make themselves children they can sell good homegrown story but if you can't get the word episode can find them, how do they compete? how do you see this work like that? how do you open a small business in new york? >> the two models you are using our the wrong locations to try to start a small business. so if you're trying to start a small publication, you cannot compete on the generic internet. it's not going to work. there's bigger players of there. say what you like about net neutrality. it's already gone. there is no net neutrality. the net is not new to. it just isn't. enough bandwidth, you've got to find more money. it doesn't work. it already worked, you know more

this about -- you know more about this than me. if you have a publication and yet the target to the human that you can talk to. you can't be in everything. you can't compete with the "new york times." you can't be a new site, but if you are the pizza site, then you can find your community, and it is really good for finding the nonlocal community of people who want to be part of your commute. i wouldn't call it an affinity group. that's what facebook does. those are affinities about we like for torso's. if you want to find us, start a publication it's got to be so targeted that define those people and then build from there. same thing can if you want to start a store, to target in manhattan for the tricky dick is want to open a restaurant in manhattan you pretty much need vc. where are you competing for your

compete in the millionaires row. i'm an author i can't live in manhattan the mass since the bluebird bubble was put around you. i can't imagine how you do that. even this said the call, they got google and china partners feeding into this. they are able to operate at that scale. but no, you can stake out real estate online but it's going to be focused and specific and in a way where you're going to have to address the need that is not being met, and then people will come. >> we had a couple more hands down here. >> a question about the global conversation. for example, wikipedia or sort of decentralized opportunities where the global aspect of it

allows for certain virtues that i think fit with what you're talking about. i'm just wondering how we sort of differentiate between those two. does that make sense? >> not yet. >> okay. how we differentiate between some of the global opportunities that allow us to first find the niche out there, you know, all the weird people we want for that small but also to have the encyclopedia that can beat out the microsoft encyclopedia because we got the whole world, or plot change possibility i don't mean that going to the possible of global voting and things of that nature. and also a conversation about nation-states are probably not going to be the solution to most

of our major climate problems. we are going to have to have some kind of global coalition or initiative. i'm just wondering where you see the virtuous the possibilities? i completely see where you're coming with a local and i completely agree, but i'm just wondering where to be the solution for the virtuous of global opportunity? >> i see the global space to meet this more ip-based than commerce-based. it's easier to disseminate an idea to a lot of different places and then different people can work on that idea and lots of giveaways. sort of the way open source caterpillar trucks and stop indefinite those to a lot of places that let people buildings themselves. i love disseminating plans to a lot of places. that's what i think back to the era when you could start a

national movement by sending out handbooks, mike boyce got handbooks, or his hated and you kind of do it your way. your community is going to decide what is kosher and what's not. you guys eat about? which is sort of the way it went, but it worked. it worked in a decentralized fashion. i think the idea of global commerce is very different than the global idea space. that's interesting, a very interesting switch because in the early in the we thought of everything globally and we want to get government off their because they would put up boundaries. but we didn't realize was that by getting government off we created an open market for corporations to coming. coming. it's sort elected to get rid of all the bacteria, the fungus rises. you need some backdated to fight

the focus of together so that you can just live. let's been battle it out. we should've let them be there instead of decrying this is a government free zone. there's other place we didn't recognize. they took over the thing. now when we see global, so many people back to the wto process mean, things we mean global market. the biotech bust is no more. he recovered we have no poster child for infinite expansion of they said will be in the long move, grow forever. that was just and imperialism by another name. it doesn't negate the fact that the internet is still a global net work. it still has the potential to disseminate ideas and

entrepreneurial ideas if you want to even call them that. entrepreneurial ideas that can spread a global time dollar would be really interesting. how do network a whole bunch of local time dollars bucks is almost a holy grail so i can make money. and it still some of his good over there. i just bought something from turkey, that was kind of weird. what was that? on ebay is evil in its way, but they facilitated commerce between people in a way rather than just extracting value from people. >> we have time for one more question. >> a woman. >> i was trying to see if there were any women. that's specifically what i was looking for. nobody, really? >> a person of color. [laughter] spent next week with a meeting about developing fiber-optic

network. what advice would you have about that for us at the meeting? and i have flyers if anyone is interested. >> she would have better advice than i would. the advice i would have is to look out for the lawsuit that time warner on verizon to our whoever your cable provider is going to pitch against you. you do what they did when people touch great municipal wi-fi on municipal broadband? they companies suing the basis that locals have an unfair advantage, because they are local. that's horse pocky. locals and should have the home-field advantage. that's the one thing we humans have is a home-field advantage on planet earth. corporations are alien. they are abstract. they are not real. they are just computer programs. they are algorithms. so defend your home-field

advantage and argue that in a court of law, which is to adjudicated so far by human judges. and then you stand a chance. this is really all we are doing. then you stand a chance of fighting against the regulation that prevents people from engaging in commerce of equal or better footing than the corporations that use for it. >> i'm also happy to talk about it. the are a lot of good examples to learn from. a lot has to do with how you manage partnerships, about to be owned by the community. i think the municipal ownership aspect of the board. so again, with that i think were going to close which means everyone can come and ask the questions individually. so thank you. >> thank you so much. thank you for having me. [applause] [inaudible conversations]

>> here's a look at some books that are being published this week.

look for these titles in bookstores this coming week and watch for the authors in the near future on booktv. >> when i tune into on the weekends, usually its authors sharing their new releases. >> watching the nonfiction authors on booktv is the best television for serious readers. >> that have a longer conversation and delve into their subjects. >> booktv weekends, they bring you author after author after

author. >> i love booktv and i make c-span fan. >> your silica some authors recently featured on tv.

there's something really surprising and it surprised me as much as anyone when i was doing the research, and that is that voters are not making their decisions based on gender bias. they're thinking about ideology and political party and issues and questions the temperament when they decide who to vote for. ..

did you consult your chairs and melinda dickinson college, and gives you more space to have a

book signing and also be here behind the cash register for sale if you haven't had a chance to get one. once again, welcome to politics & prose. i am one of the events managers here. if you're not familiar with the bookstore, i would definitely buy it for a weekly e-mail or a copy of our march event calendar could reduce 600 best year and it's a really good way to keep up with everything we have going on. so please check it out. now onto why you're all actually here. this evening we are so pleased to have iris bohnet to discuss her new book, "what works: gender equality by design." she is professor public policy at her work and insights from economics and psychology decision making in organizations

and society as a whole. her new book specifically looks at how behavioral design can help counteract around the world to provide interventions like another real impact on what can be done on gender bias. we are pleased to have her here to tell us more. pleased join me in welcoming her to politics & prose. [applause] >> good evening and thank you. i had a particular appreciation for you spending your time inside good it is just amazing. so to tell you a little more about my book, i have to be here tonight with my family who is sitting back there and also students and family. thank you for coming. let me introduce you to hide the

come and venture capitalists in silicon valley. a few years back a colleague of mine wrote a case study about her, the kind of case studies across the world to help students understand business, leadership, management looks like. what you did at the march printer, as a venture capitalist and how she built enterprise in silicon valley. a few years later they have created ideas to have her first name by howard. they give half of their students the case of the protagonists being howard and the other half of the students the same case of a thing absolutely identical. so the students read the case and at the end had to fill out a questionnaire, after they feel

about heidi and howard. and you might not be surprised knowing what the topic of our discussion tonight is that students thought that both heidi and howard did a good job. in fact they are both competent but they did not like haiti. they didn't want a higher haiti and they didn't want to work with heidi. why is that? heidi does not conform to our stereotypes of what a venture capitalist looks like. she is a minority. in the same is of course true for male nurses are male kindergarten teachers. same is true for female engineers. this is how our minds work. if you do not conform, this is what we collectively are up

against. we put people in the boxes that the unit leaving. if you don't see kindergarten teachers come we don't vastly associate that job with men and if you don't see engineers, we don't naturally think that women are made for engineering. so here's the good news in the badness. the good news is this is not about pointing fingers at anyone. but in fact, this is about all of us. this is about well-meaning people who kind of wanted to the right they assigned a hard to always get around to doing it. now here's the bad news. our minds are stubborn piece. they are really hard to change. someone am trying to do in my book at the beginning was to

really learn what works, the title of the book, "what works," would overcome such bias. and i look forward an example that their training program. the diversity training programs for example for frequently used around the world in our organizations. some estimates say we have a about a billion dollars a year in her city training. sadly enough we don't measure whether they work. one of the studies we've try to understand what's going on has done a very simple analysis. they took many different companies and just basically counted whether these companies to have a diversity training program or whether they don't. and then they looked at the diversity of the workforce.

and here is the depressing news. the correlation is basically nonexistent. so whether or not your company has a diversity training program other people have gone into schools to better understand whether diversity training works. they have one of the experiments where they gave some of the classes what we called the treatment, quiet and early cavemen, gave them some training and then they had a control group, which didn't get to training. and then they masher what a difference makes. sadly enough again, the kids have got to training were not more likely after the training to interact or play kids do it different from themselves. so sadly my overarching conclusion at this point is that we either don't know whether the

diversity training programs were or what we do know is not encouraging. so what else can we do? some of the programs have tried to do what we sometimes call pics women. it's not a beautiful turn. at the same time, even though i just use that term, i acknowledge that leadership training program are necessary. when i teach negotiation at harvard, who am i to tell my students, let me not try and fix you but wait another 150 years until we figured it all out. i'm not saying we don't need them. we do need them. but clearly this can't just be about fixing women. yes, helping them navigate a system a bit more successfully certainly is helpful. but again, the evidence doesn't suggest this is actually going to close the gap. then they look at sponsorship

programs, mentorship programs, networking initiatives and they move us closer to where we would like to be at a level playing field where everyone has equal opportunity. i would love to suggest he a slightly different approach tonight. i am proposing an ibook to behavioral design. what i argue is what we really have to do is to make it easier for a biased mind to get sprayed. and that means we have to de-bias our organizations rather than tobias our minds. let me give you an example of what this might look like. it has nothing to do with gender at all, but it is a bit of a method for you to keep in the back of your mind. many of you must have been in a hotel room when you were given a room key card to not only serve

to open the door, but also to turn on the light. and then when you take it off, it turns off the lights automatically. it won't be a surprise to you that this is infinitely more successful than anything that any hotel saying please turn off the light, please use the towels. here is a voucher. go get some coffee. this is more so they should that counts i'm not to be conscious of our very act all the time and not leave the bathroom and the light turned on. a little bit of design, a little bit technology that makes it easier for good people like all of us to care about the environment, but in the heat of the moment might not think of doing the right thing.

so what does that mean for gender equality? the opening story, which in fact it's also based on research in my book is the story of orchestras. major symphony orchestra in the 70s came up with an ingenious design innovation. namely they introduce screens and had musicians audition behind screens. the interesting back story is the orchestra curse were not convinced at the time that this would do any good. they actually about people thought that they cared about the music that was played, the third enough whether somebody looks apart. it turns out that at the time we have roughly 5% to 7% on our major orchestra. now we have almost 4010.

screens increase the likelihood that women will it then by 50%. that is quite powerful. it's powerful for two reasons. it's powerful because i think it demonstrates how deeply how the biases are and how direct there is to clearly must care about the thought that the music couldn't help but be influenced by what they looked like. and secondly, it is an important example for me because it demonstrates the power of design. this is not about changing my set, but it was about a bit of technology really in many cases just occurred. what does that mean for organizations? can we in fact introduced the live to account management and not level with somebody looks like, what your name is, where

it comes from, what color the skin is, whether they submit their application? yes, we can. they in fact do that already. that is quite low-hanging fruit i think. it is a design innovation that companies introduce quite literally tomorrow and we would expect quite tremendous change for a minute. now you'll say gas, maybe at the entry-level, maybe at the beginning, but how about the final. at some point we are down to the five finalists who might want to interview. what are they going to do? i'm a star with combat news. the interviews are probably the most overrated thing we do in terms of trying to evaluate the people's future performance. there's basically no evidence that we are. actors. not everyone -- probably

everyone in this room has been interviewed at some point in your life are you have interviewed others. like i have, i'm sure you've also that you kind of feel it whether a person is a good fit. and as i say this, i hope you feel about open suffice. i used to be a synchronized swimmer. if i need the money has also synchronized number i think this person is going to make a great economist of course. that is what we are up against. it is not conscious that i think synchronized swimming as correlation with economies. but it's unconscious. in my gut and intuition because we shared in common. it's not completely useless, but it's very hard for a two disc so what is just noise from the good information.

much research has been done on the interviews. then they share one particularly helpful study which was an eye-opener for me a piece. a few years back, texas realized that they didn't have enough position in the state of texas. and they asked the medical schools to admit more of the applicants than they had initially intended. in fact, the academic year. and so the medical schools saturday chosen. so now, supplement later they have to go back to the people, go back teeth into the pool and the one universities that is right now has to go back which was 700. and that was their initial class. but they were not asked to add

50 more. they were back to the pool, had the 700 member to people who nobody else wanted. but they saw was a catastrophe from a research point of view and turned into an interesting opportunity. with these bad people, excuse my language, you understand in a sector while you said. initially lower ranked applicant were in fact the worst performers over time compared to the topic be. they found that their evaluation system is not better than flipping a coin. in fact, that is what the committee concluded. maybe the future clearly whatever they are doing is not help old. what were they doing? about half of the rating was

based on more quantitative scores. that included previous grades, letters of recommendation, also included work experience. that's about half. the other half of the rating was a stunt to interviews with faculty. it turns out they could take the interviews complete a a little bit a correlation. what that means is the interviews just make things worse and less precise because all of a sudden these concentrations i just mentioned to you such as your favorite sports club set to play a role when in fact clearly they shouldn't be informative on medical school applicants. the bad the challenge of interviews. and now you're finalists in you to want to interview them, so

what you do? let me suggest three different things. the best to perform this one prize really appeared a few test ahmadinejad that is very similar to the job they will be doing in the future. so when i hire research assistants, that is actually not a difficult problem. i can give them a problem, i said to analyze and do data analysis and then i kind of know. so the second one is always use a structured interview, not an unstructured one. if you want to talk to people, ask the same questions, maybe five, 10, however many you want in the same order and force yourself to stick to it. don't deviate if the person

talks about your shared hobby or other things. so interviews are better predictors of performers and finally i am right in a dead with max and alexander try to debug this internal person who's sitting up here who saw the engineering equals male prekindergarten teacher equals female tries to overcome the little person here. how do you do that? by comparing at least two real people. let me explain to you why. everything is relative. we human beings were unable to make up slow to just been spared whether or not you had to call right now are whether or not you like the coffee that you drink this morning has something to do with the temperatures that you're used to. you have to have that measuring

to help you judge the situation our people. that's exactly what happened when the value at a job candidate. you rely on the stereotype in your mind to calibrate your judgment and have some sense of whether that person belongs or not. but then i give you at least two good we could show that these two are more starting to use your much more likely to focus on individual performance or individual qualifications rather than a group person belongs to. so these are some thought on talent management. one big chunk of the book. let me also talk about two other examples from two very different areas. i've also spent quite a bit of time digging about schools.

not just because my husband and i have two boys and school, but because we do know that it actually starts really early. there's lots we can do in our schools as well. what is happening this month, march 5th is something we haven't done never before appeared we begin to devise the probably most important you ever have to take, the s.a.t. what i mean with that? you probably read about this quite a bit in the news that started this here we have lots of design changes that the college board introduced. a lot of it is related to the topic of our discussion tonight. that is a student of mine came to me about five years ago saying that she wanted to study

and application of gender distances and self-confident and willingness to take risks. there's lots of research showing women are more risk-averse than men and tend to be less self, and it than men. and she feared this might affect lots of things. for example, people would speak up in a meeting. which is hard to study, but also how people take tax. and here is why. in a multiple-choice test dummies typically have a number of options to choose from. five possible answers and it turns out they could exclude based on the old s.a.t. was rational to get. and you would be deducted one

quarter of the point for every wrong answer. and so with just a little bit of not it quite fairly. but if you are less willing to take, the little risk that is involved in casting will loom larger to you. it's not a crazy hypothesis to argue that maybe those going to take risks will answer more questions and though afraid of risk posts get the questions. that's exactly what was found. women were significantly more likely to skip and men were more likely to gas. she brought students into the laboratory where she couldn't disrupt the s.a.t. but could force everyone to answer every

question. she could measure what people would've done had had they given any there. so what i'm telling you is controlling what they would have known. equally able people then you scored higher on the s.a.t. because they were more willing to gas than the female counterpart. so what do you do? a number of things we could've done. but they ended up doing is quite interesting. they did away with the penalty for wrong answers completely. and they're kind of arguing that they now make it legal for 100% of the population to get because now you're willing to take with, but not play a role anymore. so that is quite an achievement for almost a hundred years to literally level the playing

field. that is my second divine intervention i would like for you to remember. guess that's how we evaluate people and we should worry about the valuation that we should also really think hard about how to be organized with work in schools and even tests. let me give you a research example. and what i'm trained to do in the book is not focused on the united states, but look wherever there's good evidence on what works to close gender gaps in whichever part of the world. i am trying to focus in particular what i explained before where we had a treatment group to really know what a difference made.

some went to india to evaluate the experiment that is not as well-known as it should be. one of the very first countries to introduce quota for local villages. in fact, what was beautiful from a research point of view, they mandated that a third have to be female and randomly. not the villages and they want a woman to have a woman available and they have to have a female leader. she doesn't want to be

reelected. even now in the very early evidence suggested that these women provided more than their counterparts. that is not my main point. lots of things happen. that is not after having been exposed to two female leaders and 20 years, mindset started to change. in fact, the recent science study shows that one of the core career aspirations apparent now is for their daughters to become politicians. that's a beautiful story. it's actually quite amazing. 20 years is not such a long time. and it's also a surprising story because of course it's not that there's now millions of new jobs

available. seeing really is believing and role models matter. we can change what people think is possible by changing what they see. and ask him the real people, and the typical people is really helpful. this really helped out for boys to have male teachers in reading and writing and english and is really helpful for girls to have female teachers in stem subjects. but you'd be surprised it even works to change the portraits on your walls. very interesting research showing that test taking his influence by the kinds of images that students see on the wall while they take a test.

one study exposed children to either male or female role models and measure the kind of speeches they get afterward. and again, if girls have just seen angela merkel or hillary clinton said of bill clinton or other male role models gave objectively more powerful speeches have a look at the rules of the hallways and count. sadly enough, we also have encountered and it took a good college incentive of mine, professor at the kennedy school took her quite a while about 10 and a half years ago she realized that after many portraits of leaders at the kennedy school, exactly zero were of women.

now we have to change that. we do have i to be above, the president of liberia, abigail adams, but i did take somebody to actually realize the complaint was broken and 50% of her students were female and we wanted them to succeed and have the same opportunities. so measuring is very helpful. i often argue this is the first step to do anything because you do need to understand what's broken before you try to fix it. next-line the very last chapter i suggest the design can also serve as an acronym. d. for data and everything starts good data, really understanding the young mothers

are more likely to leave. where did they leave to? cpu is for data. e. for experimentation. many organizations just introduced a new facts that comes out of some random business school. don't do that. spare a minute. think about your people management the way you think about financial decision-making. you don't trust your gut when you think about your finance. we have been using experimentation and pilots for many, many years. we have to do more of that. people management as well to really get a sense of what works and what doesn't work. so do for data, e. for experimentation and then turning into a signpost and that really

goes back to the room key cards, which is a signpost. you know not to think about turning off the light, but the little car leads the way. and with that, i wish all of you designing change a world where everyone could drive. thank you very much. [applause] >> would love to hear questions. please use the microphone on the side. >> hi, hello. and that to thank you for your

presentation. however, they took spent on the story you gave about musicians. as you know, they not only put the screen, but they told the women to change their shoes because they came in the room. the judges who were all white male can hear the sound of her shoe and the bias would fit in. so this bias you are alluding to is very, very deep. it is so bad that they are telling the corporations in the area of human rights versus literally to hire someone who doesn't look like you. it seems as you indicated the diversity programs to team to be achieving the intended goal. and it may be a problem of the

fox on the safety committee for the chickens. you can't have the people who are the problem doing these things. so what you're talking about, not just gender bias, but racism is underneath also. i modified the mistake because something of believe whites are genetically disposed to racism. the same problems are being addressed over and over again they can't seem to get it out of their system. when we have people like you come in and mention that i'm bored, which i don't like to use , that could have been a category also. a psychologist from the who did a study. the view on the application for

an am, you have to put your race. why is that necessary? the people making those decisions for the exam don't look like me because i wouldn't want to know what you look like. i simply want to know that you are the right person we are acting to be in the exam room for the exam. so i think that is the issue. >> i actually think we are very online and that we agree that bias is very deep -- runs very deep and it's not just racial bias. you can go to implicit iis.com. it allows you to take a test and measure how biased you are. we can safely predict that 97% in this room will find that ui

spec says anne rice says and that you don't like overweight people and you don't like short men and people of certain religions and certain countries and it goes on and on. so i couldn't agree with you more. one more thing because it's very important. that's why it's so hard to overcome. here's one thing tha i think we disagree. that is we generally find, sadly enough, that these biases are held independent of your demographic characteristics. what i mean by that is women are biased against women as women and minority roles as our men. so i would have to disagree that based on the evidence, just changing with the search committee or a selection committee looks like his going to solve the problem.

no. the evidence is strong that itself is not going to be enough. we have to do more and we have to move those boxes and ties. we have to move them completely or if we need them for some reason till the very end. why would we have students think of their race, city, nationality, gender before they take the test. as you rightly point out, stereotypes are well analyzed. >> it again, is structuring these exams benefit from it. not just for themselves, but other people, too. what race are you? at this point in time if i have to fill out any application and i see that section, i don't believe they can.

so anytime i see it it just that human. but again, i don't like the word minority. by what i want to use that word? the word maturity is to. so why would they use that? we have to think about things like this also. >> you may have noticed i use the word minority today to describe the statistical minority. when women for exemplary engineers, i would call them the minority among the engineers. i think there's a place for minority, to your exact right. and about, for example, i try to stay away from the word minority. i have to give credit for a collaborator of mine who told me about was the right word to use and i trust her judgment there. so yes, i am more optimistic than you are. i think there are more good people out there and i do think

much of this is unconscious. they're racists, exit people out there. absolutely. but the book is for the good people like all of us honestly who want to do the right thing but i've never thought about the test. not because they're bad people, but they weren't aware that it's really to have demographic or six. >> somewhere i read that essentially performative character of naming a precondition or politics and hegemony. so that seems to me has to go so i don't appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you for coming to speak with us today. i'm a student at american university and a question about university is widespread across

our country who see a lot of people in universities trying to link age in the creation of structural things double-sided as more subtle forms of oppression are biased such as trigger warnings, things that we see in the media as attention draws on college campuses and a lot of those attempts to institute more subtle structural things that universities that can help with issues. i've been met with criticism that they create a more coddled generation of university student and as someone who focuses on this area, i was wondering how you feel about it and how you feel universities can try and combat in a way that does not impede on free speech and big people so they cannot express themselves on campus. >> yes, it's a very deep question and certainly something we are very much struggling with at harvard as well.

i have to be very careful here. i'm not american. i am swiss. the concept is free speech isn't quite as dear to me as it is american colleagues. i do think what makes the moral choices in the world of low and we have made those choices before. as a society, we can decide overwrote freeze peach, but the very personal opinion, not much based on research, but just based on morality and we have done it before and we can do it again. i can give you one example where harvard had a speech. so was certainly have real racism going on in our campus and people sprayed the portraits of african-american faculty at the harvard law school. is that free speech?

we clearly felt we needed to overrule that and thought that immediately with the strongest possible terms. i think the reality is also a value that we shared in this country around the world and sometimes overruling free speech. >> i was fascinated with tears tori -- a study of the bias that the s.a.t. and how you went about correct unit. in 1972, i had access to data at the university of michigan moss school, which allowed to figure out what explains good grades in michigan law school. i put and of course the lsat, undergraduate at various things, but also variables in putting whether your father was a voyeur and your gender. i found out after you correct it for everything, women did so

much better than statistically -- significantly better in law school at michigan than men. i was actually used by the admissions office because we went sort of 5% women to 20% to 30, 40, 50% women over the period of a few years. i never imagined that the hard data that i was the event might itself have it own bias and that might've explained at least part of the result the variable pick to. i was wondering if this kind of study has been done in other programs in other disciplines in your comment on whether i was really measuring the bias as

opposed to something else. >> thank you very much for that question. certainly it is true that in recent girls are outperforming voices both, including moscow's good last year the oecd came out with a report showing the agenda gap in math is causing very, very rapidly in many countries completely closed and some scandinavian countries girls are already outperforming boys. they're still a small gap at what is outperforming growth and most astonishing was that 15-year-old boy with a year in reading and writing compared to the 15-year-old girls. so yes, we do have an issue in our schools part of the story's lack of romano, part of the

story is different than teaching. so what awaits you with the information? what is interesting is that women have increasingly outperformed voices school. about the last 10 or 15 years, and surprised at her to have an innate 72. but there also has been kind of going on for quite a while and certainly more girls graduate from college for about 25 years now. not just a u.s. phenomenon. latin america countries with more girls graduating from university from voice. here's the interesting thing. gender gap has closed and sometimes even reverse parts of the world.

that is not trained weighted into the closing of the gender gap. it has led to more women entering the labor force. entry-level, including modern queasiness search of young e-mail associate. but interestingly enough, that somehow doesn't trance late. we also have to increase female partners, but under proportionally compared to the entry-level class. that is what my book is also trying to understand, why i thought it was story that in this particular leadership gap and leadership dies that has been thing to do with our same types of what a good leader looks like. and that is why it equally

powered but don't like her. studies are more optimistic and we have evidence that we could equally appreciate her work and like having a drink with her. sadly that is still how we choose people. >> thank you very much for this very interest in both in discussion. a couple of very brief anecdotes. one is when you talk about conscious bias and the orchestra example, my favorite law professor in moscow had worked at indiana university before. he represented -- he was serving as an arbitrator, a

decision-maker. women were charging that they were not being included in the school of music at indiana university in the -- in the orchestra in band and appropriate members. they were being discriminated up against. when my professor investigated, he was told by some of the bands in orchestra leaders, it takes to play brass. so women could play the violin okay, but so that allowed him the opportunity to turn to the screen, the curtain. and guess what? there were players on trombone players is. the other thing is in about 1988

and i was arguing a case in a state of appellate court in illinois. the judges called lawyer up to the podium to make their arguments. my first thing happens to be susan. when the judges called my case, they said for the plaintiff mr. benson for defendant number one, mr. that a defendant number two, mr. sachs which was my last name. susan is not a gender -- [inaudible] and i stood up in their faces were just appalled. in 1987-1988. and i won the case. i should've won the case anyways. but they certainly didn't ask any questions.

i guess my point up on tread is as you obviously haven't thought to this evening is the thing with their deep rooted and often very overt. i am wondering about the trade-off when you are talking about boys do better if their kindergarten teachers are men and girls do better if they send teachers are women. but women in employment decisions affecting paraphrase what you're saying often have the same sorts of biases. and so how do you control for that? i mean, if all to send teachers are women, the boys don't see the women engineers, it better.

so how do you fix that? >> at the huge question. i don't think i have a very real there. i certainly try to look at interventions, which are basically gender-neutral. these are my favorite. and then i look at interventions which they were, so to speak about one of the sexes. i like that cash transfers in low-income countries to keep your kids in school. so what happens to boys? are they going to fall behind? so desperate to cash a very interesting. they had a big impact on schools not just because the girl scout

money but because all of a sudden nobody paid attention to the school and said the teachers also benefited the boys. i don't give you a real trade-off sometimes you have to let the data speak for itself. maybe something different is happening. the quotas are very interesting examples. there was a corporate or between two to 2000. about 40% of women on the board. that means we have that i. or they're just increasing by the board. there are trade-offs. companies we work with that of introduced senior management have absolutely a lot of

backlash. men who all of a sudden have a 90% were reduced to 50%. so they weren't happy when that did not affect culture in a useful way. i think quotas actually not a design intervention because it's literally regulation. quotas do have behavioral effect in that they change what we see extremely quickly. as the example demonstrates. but they do have costs. i am trying to be transparent about the cost of my boat. in many ways what i am arguing is the designs are another instrument in our toolbox to reach the goals that we want to reach. we as a society have to decide the goals. that is not up to me to impose. that's the best answer i can

give. luscious be open about them. >> quotas have had a very troubled history in the employment found in this century. i think it is the hawthorne effect and if you count it, but you pay attention to it, which is why people wear these to send whatever. there's a lot of trade-off. thank you. >> my husband actually said we did really good today. en masse, without good about ourselves. i'm not sure were going to do that. >> thank you. thanks so much for your work and creativity evidenced in your work. i'm university professor volokh has some of the research on gender inclusiveness in the the academy particularly around within the end of. i have two questions that i

think are related. one is i am interested in your thoughts about the kind of leadership that is needed in our organizations to bring about the kinds of interventions who are speaking out. many of them you are suggesting and i would agree are once individually we can implement in our daily lives are daily work. some of them require, at least would be helped by support from people who have senior leadership roles where they could make organizational decision. i wonder if you might speak about what you see as raven effective leadership in support of the kinds of design issues you're speaking of. related to that, are you seeing any particular organizational care during? you spoke at the academy and the corporate world in your examples. are you seeing organizational qualities that are particularly useful in effect in the kind of

interventions who was begin of? >> i have a very good answer to the last question, but i will start here first and while i speak i think about the second. the first -- yes, absolutely an interesting example you would be familiar with, and i.t. was one of the very early institutions in this country to do something about gender inequity, including stanfield, but including stanfield and a female professor that may be referred to as equally. at m.i.t. they measured how big your office was compared to your male colleagues office, how much laboratory space you have, how many assistants, how many resources, the whole thing.

and it was true. women were discriminated against. women were not given the same kind of opportunities. this is now called support. you are not even allowed to perform because you're never given the same kind of support. m.i.t. had quite a bit of progress in hiring female faculties. still a long way to go. they are still measuring and still countenanced of keeping track. they were actually the academy that at the time to be measured clearly. i'm including the male leadership. i do think evidence is one way for me to speak to economists because that is kind of what we do. we kind of believe in data evidence, implementation. if i can bring the evidence to bear on maybe a softer topic such as gender for diversity

were generally, and often resonate in academia. let me also give you a more personal story that i also talk about in the book. i did actually serve at the kennedy school for a few years. while it took me away from the boat, it was actually a very important experience that for my writings because normally as academics we are observing. we cleverly observe and understand everything. sometimes doing and experiencing is quite useful. i just have to tell you i was surprised by how time-consuming people were. you know, do my data analysis. but then, people take time. ..

they went to the high school. they offered assistance snacks for the next 30 days and had to choose the specs today. they chose 30 snacks now for the next 30 days. lots of stack. then the other half was asked to choose every day of the month what snack they want to have today. it