called today? >> [inaudible] >> jpmorgan chase. yes, thank you. item, if i click the mouse, it's like terrible. oh, sorry. that one. [inaudible conversations] okay. so i'll end the story just by telling you how cholera vanished from new york city, because i think it's instruct i have. ..

we can do better today in our era of emerging pathogens, but it's really -- as the story to me says, it's not necessarily about our technology. it's really about whether we have the political will to do it. thank you so much for listening. [applause] >> okay. now we'll welcome karen masterson, the author of "the malaria project" and i'm going to switch if you you, sonia, so i can manage the pc.

[inaudible conversations] >> so, i came to global health issues and microbes by extent. i was actually a political reporter. an environmental reporter before that, for the philadelphia inquirer, but i was up at the national archives looking for something completely different and stumbled upon some records that talk about how our researchers in world war ii infected state hospital patients with malaya so they could test new drugs on them. this was shocking to me, and i kind find a whole lot of historical treatment of this, and as i kept pulling threads and searching through boxes in the archives, i realized i was

in uncharted territory and i had to tell the story. i didn't know much.world war ii or malaria, or bioethics. but i got up to speed because this was fascinating story i wanted to tell. i actually wanted these slides tot be deleted because i have 60 slides for 15 minute but i'll whip through them. the boxes looked like this, boxes stamped "top secret." the world is at war and nobody had a good malaria drug, and before normandy, most of the fighting happened in highly malariaous areas so if you had a weapon against the disease you had a leg up on all the battles. so our government, the roosevelt administration, opened the spigot. most of the american drug companies to come together to find a bomb.

it was funded under the same umbrella organization of the wartime science projects, including the manhattan project. there were -- the reports were in blackout, couldn't be published so they were written by the lead investigators and sent to a central clearinghouse like johns hopkins university, and there they meat every month, the scientist so they could compare notes. i figured out how to not be totally judgmental of the scientist's who did the work. i was taught that by this man, bill collins, at the cdc, and i sat next to this man and listened to his stories and dissect mosquitoes. he had been around long enough to infected state hospital behaviors malaria so he could study the disease and test drugs. the problem back then was you couldn't grow malaria in a petri dish. you had have to live infections, and as malaria dried up, in northern europe and the northern

states of the united states, it was hard to come by so if you infect people you can just study it and he called those the good old days. i said you know you're talking to a reporter, right? i'm going to write this. and he was sincere. this good old days. now, at the cdc you have to infect monkeys and day were difficult and expensive and tried to bite him and monkey malaria didn't extrapolate to huma layer ya and had to run the new vaccine study on the monkeys first. so he had a roomful of archives that no one had ever seen before from world war ii and the years immediately following world war 2, and he used the data that was collect it from these infected patients to inform today's vaccine researchers. the data they had on live infections remained valuable to this day. he and one of his colleagues. so, he actually got me thinking

like a ma layerallologist, and feel like i came to the story with objectivity and not so much judgment and tried to let the story speak for itself. this is a blood site taken from an american soldier towards world war ii. the blood stage of malaria. the parasite enters through the mosquito bite, stick shaped. and sonya's called thumb shape shifters. this is a shape-shifting parasite. it immediately gets into your liver and it incubates and it hides from your immune system until it's ready to launch an attack on your red celles, and when it does that, your red cells look like this. when you have trillions of the pair sites you get sicker than you have ever been. a it's terrible, weeks long infection. at some point during the time when you're feeing the most sick, some of these parasites mature and they become sexually

disstink. they emit an aroma that tropics mosquitoeses and then the mosquitoes burst with these stick-like micro -- into the saliva and infect again. i chose to tell the story about the world war ii project through this man for several reasons. i really liked him, one, and i didn't want to spend my whole time researching this book on one of the scientist iowa felt that heir biological thinking dialed up too much without having enough empathy for their patients. coggeshall had the empathy and-afied with them. after the war he was a dean of the university of chicago medical school, the vice president there, and he advised the eisenhower administration on medical education. he said we are teaching our medical students to specialize, to focus on body parts and that

is unsafe for us. we should be folk us can go on the whole body. we as medical professionals, and he was called a communityize for it in the 1950s. -- communist for it in the 18950s. with the war he was a malaria expert. he was part of a large network of of american researchers trying to get a handle on the u.s. -- endemic malaria. in some areas -- leesburg, georgia, the infection rate is were 80%. he work in places like this where the trees were being ripped up and southerners were left with these gaping holes of larva-producing swamps that filled the skies with mosquitoes that carried malaria. so, throughout the course of the 1920s and and 30s, he worked

with -- this is darling, the brains behind the effort to build the panama canal. samuel darling was responsible for lick mag layer -- licking malaria, which almost -- and next to him is paul russell, one of malaria's most favorite sons. through the new deal, antipoverty program, building dams in a way that eliminated mosquito larva instead of producing mosquito larva, bringing electricity to communities in the south because mosquitoes hate fans and air conditioning, and attracted industry, which brought jobs, so people could get out of shacks and into homes with tight eaves and screens and by 1940 most of america's malaria had been completely dried up. while we were working on malaria in this way, this man won a

nobel prize but a he figured out how to give malaria to -- neurosive lettics and cure them on insanity. in 1927 he won a nobel prize because syphilis was rampant. the late stage of syphilis is an infection in the brain and cause erattic behavior, insane behavior, most people end up in the asylums and state hospitals and a year or two later would die. he figured out he could save 30% of them if he gave them malaria. malaria fevers, if you can control them win quinine, would increase the body's immune sim so it could fight off syphilis when it gets into the brain. but because you can't grow parasites, these malaria parasites in a petri dish, he kept two strains of ma layer use going by take bloods from his infected patients and giving them to new patients. this became the new way of

treatment for neurosyphilissic. state hospitals over the world -- it costs money but if you were lucky, you could kick malaria if you hat neurosive -- neurosyphilis. he is only one of two psychiatrists to win the nobel prize in medicine in history. the germans were very clever. the german bear company. who were trying to come up with a synthetic drug for malaria, they said, well, we don't need to go and do our studies in africa and in places where ma layerways endemic. we'll just go and run our drug studies on the patients undergoing moo layer ya therapy. it's a within win. we get to study the disease and test our drugs, behr came up with two potential drugs, one made from a yell low dye. the dye attaches to the

parasite. they add a side chain that is lethal to the parasite, carries the drug to the target, and wipes out the infection. the only problem is that drug -- it's a toxic drug and never broke into the market. quinine made from the bark of a tree that grew on plantations that the dutch had a monopoly on and the world kept using quinine. is this one of the leading malariologists in germany who ran studies for behr, and he said why stop there? why not run these studies on prisons? the war is -- we have to find a drug so he wrote a proposal to do studies on prisoners. let's just give malaria to prisoners and then we can test our drugs on them and him her thought that was a great idea and gave him the prison camp and

he infects thousands. his prisoners got an extra ration of food and they slept on clean sheets and they were given the fever so he could test his drugs and his theories and then give them quinine and cured and sent back into the barracks where they died. a lot of. the. because of typhus and cholera. this is him trying to explain to american lawyers who liberated the camp, he was just doing malaria therapy. this was standard. he one doing anything wrong. and they didn't understand malaria therapy and he hanged. now we're back before the war, and he knows shilling, knows the leading malariaogyist in germany. mow knows they're working with behr and testing the drug on state hospital patients and making progress and building

drugs, and he mastermindses a plan for the american to do the same thing. he temporarily and -- he temporarily sidetracked to africa because an air route we created to supply the british in egypt and the russians with guns and planes, was completely shut down because of malaria in west africa. so that supplies started -- were flown out of miami, down to the elbow of brazil, across the hump of africa, and then, boom, stopped because the airfields there, the workers were all completely infected with malaria, and so the u.s. air command asked if he go go over there and clean it up. he found airfields being carved out of jungle and creating massive mosquito breeding breedd

this was the reason why the pilots and the mechanics and the construction people were all get mag layer -- ma layery. he had quinine but he realized it didn't work. he had the german drug. under these conditions didn't work. so he tried screens. we'll screen up the barracks and you're going to roll down your pants and sleeves and wear netting over your helmets, and to the best of your ability wear bug spray. he had sessions every day. he made education the most important part of what he did. he told them, if you're going to the sex villages you have to go during the day, not at night, ball the malaria carrying mosquito bites at night. and in the course of six months he -- the infection rates in liberia, which war 100%, and -- about 50% in the gold coast, now ghana, went -- were brought down to one percent help was

completely successful without the -- the quinine he used as a backup to save them from this african form of malaria, which can kill you in a day. he brought that back to the u.s. military and said, the war department and said, you have got to -- it's not the drugs you need a multi pronged approach. and they said we don't have time for you. we're training our troops in these pristine camps in the south that we sanitize from mosquitoes and we'll talk to you later. and then came battan. after the japanese attacked pearl harbor the went and attacked the philippines. macarthur's troops were forced out of ma -- ma nilly and down the peninsula and when their quinine ran out they're started falling with malaria. 80% of them had malaria at the time of surrender. commanders said we had rifles and bullets and ammunition but nobody could lift their heads. everybody was sick with malaria.

we had no quinine. that woke up the war department and they opened the spigot for the big plan, and scientists came together to argue for. while 10,000 marines were land only godle canal. the first meeting of the malaria project took place. i they were recruiting top scientist from -- into -- many of these men had never learned about may layer -- malaria but needed for the project. it was the number one priority of the war department. they started working on drugs as the marines ripped up the landscape, the waters pooled, the mosquitoes bred, the camps turned into mud holes. at one point a medical corpsman said to a battle commander, we have got to do something about all the mosquitoes breeding in this landscape because we'll have terrible malaria, and the commander said, we're here to

kill japs and to hell with mosquitoes. the week that was recorded in a report and sent back to headquarters, everybody in malaria knows the quote but that week the first cases of malaria landed in the field hospitals. by january of 1943, the infection rate on the island was 3,000 infections per 1,000 men per annum. they were going to get three times in a year. the scientists are doing their best. they're screening drugs, using bird malaria, which doesn't extrapolate to huma layer ya. they're doing -- human malaria and they're doing toxicity tests on dogs which doesn't translate. they're fighting each could the war department said, stop, and make this yellow drug work so

they did, and they -- the american drug companies started making it. didn't know how to do it. we overdose our troops on the pacific and atlantic side. they were soiling their pass. s in the middle of battles because of uncontrolled diarrhea, vomiting up their rations. some of them had psychological episodes because this is a neurotropic drug and affects certain people that way. and so the men refused to take it. so, the war department turnedden its propaganda machine, which happened to have dr. seuss, and he drew cart to ans and made posters, the guys -- the troops -- these posters were so uquick quit us to the troops standard it calling the mosquito ann. they is that righted to get it, they've listened to their commanders and rolled down their pants and wore they're mosquito repellent and protect emt

themselves from mosquitoes they wouldn't get this disease malaria. they -- the war department was encouraging the men to take this attebrine. they lowered the dose and they could use its as prophylactic. it wasn't great. clear live they thought that would help get the message out. they trained 10,000 men in new orleans to form malaria units that attached to combat units and the learned how to use dip stick so they could study the mosquito larva. you look for the mosquito that carries malaria. once they were attached to combat units they hired thousands of local men to clear the waterways. running water killed larva. stagnant water produces

mosquitoes. they sprayed tire tracks and dumps with kerosene to kill the larva. they studied the problem in their tents. they had their own little locations and would take blood from local people and figure out how seeded the locals were and how large a palama layer ya problem can i they would have. the doctors had to go to school and learn the difference between the malarias. one you can control easily with quinine and it's not deadly, versus the kind that you get in africa which is quite deadly. they had to know the difference between -- a recurrence and a relapse. this is macour their. -- macarthur. he had to go to school. everybody up the chain was educated on what malaria was how it worked. the army air command had to

spray the flooded areas in italy after the germans retreat and destroyed all the pumps so they could flood the landscape and produce mosquito larva and slow the fifth army down with malaria. it was about this time when italy looked like this that the malaria project at home had a major breakthrough. again, they had made almost 7,000 compounds. nothing had been produced that was worth anything. they were fighting, and they ended up with a report on their desk that had been captured in tunisia. it was a report that showed some results from studies that were done in the villages of tunisia using this drug from behr. behr what the most advanced in coupling up with these potential synthetic quinines, and this --

the study showed that it not only worked as a prophylactic and it was a cure and it was nearly 100%. so, the malaria project finally had something to work with but hat used up all their state hospital patients because there weren't that many state hospital patients so they didn't have clinical material. many of them just referred to their patients as clinical material, including james shannon who would become head of the nih. so they decided that they should go into prisons. they could have plenty of known do their research on in the prisons. so, in goldwater memorial hospital where they had been run mag layer ya studies they just -- malaria studies -- this is on welfare island, roosevelt island, the men coming home from the war, they grew them in

goldwater memorial and manhattan state hospital and boston psychopathic hospital and midgeville state hospital in georgia, and the south carolina state hospital, and the blood from them -- of these different kinds kinds of parasites we needed to build arms again were september -- sent to this man. he ran the most successful project in figuring out how to use this drug in the state prison. he said i don't need to go into the state hospitals and use those people at all. i have plenty of prisoners here who will volunteer to be part of my project me. grew is malaria in prisoners and tested his drugs on the prisoners that he infected with miss malaria and he even used prisoners as technicians. among the most famous was nathan leopold, the crime of the century? the foregrounds is clarence dare

dash darrow. he saved leopold from hanging. the two boys were brilliant, from wealthy families and they picked up a neighbor off of their street and killed them just to see if they could get away with it. they thought they were so smart. and they depends. lobe was killed in a shower stall but leopold went ton by a ring leed never prison and was brilliant and worked in the lab and helped turn the drug into -- after the war was used like aspirin in tropics. then before the war, the approach to eliminate mag layer ya was multipronged, long-term, hard, it cost money, it meant creating jobs, maintain pet putting screens on homes. after the car because we that this drug and ddt, suddenly the policymakers said we can use these projects.

we have these magic bullets and the world health organization used them in this global effort to eradicate malaria. in 1957, resistance developed against this -- in the marry layer -- marry layer -- by 1978 it spread throughout africa. young change the dates and replace the drug and the same route would hold true. every drug that has been made since khlorqii noh fight malaria has suffered the same fate, and the last remaining drug, the only drug we use that wasn't created during -- or at least the parent molecule wasn't credit during this wartime project, that is also going down the same route, resistances developed in asia, and it is

spreading. the reason why i find this story so important and why i wanted to tell it is because it is instructive. i think we have these programs that focus on drugs. we need drugs, we need vaccines but we need do the harder work, too, and -- thank you. i think if a got it all. [applause] >> thank you both so much for fantastic presentations. i'll just ask one question and then we'll open up for questions. so, be ready with your questions. so, your final words there, in that pink and green map that shows the development of resistance, almost as soon as the magic bullet is developed, and sonia in your book you talk about the development and

resistance to multiple different kind of pathogens. that's the pattern these pathogens evolve with us and around us, and i'm wondering, it's a political year, what you recommend in terms of the paradigm shift necessary to move between this dominant paradigm that -- of searching for a magic bullet in the context of the germ theory, to wading into the complex intersections of commerce and politics and war and the environment that actually lead to the emergence of these pathogens to their spread, and to their success. so, how should we be thinking about that? >> well, i think -- i know that's a great question. there's a big sort of elephant

in the room that we never get to when we talk about this problem, which is that if we aim our public health goals towards furthering biomedical interventions, that really dovetails with economics's and there's powerful private interests that benefit from that. drug companies and others. when we're talking about public health inventions that social and political changes, they often are going to be in conflict with those same private interests, and we have already seen -- this is something i've been writing about now -- is how a lot of our public health agencies have become really beholding to some of the private interests and partially because they have been underfinanced so so long and we have this mole movement to public-private partnerships and i think is general lay good idea, but when we have companies telling the cdc how they should --

earmarking money for the cdc and say, look into this and that and this is how we'll sell more products and we'll divert research, and w.h.o. gets two-thirds of its bucket from private donors. agencies getting the prom people who can buy control at our premiere public health institutions. so, i think we need to address that before we can -- of course we'll always do the more industry-friendly public health intervention so long as private interests are such a huge influence on our pub health actors so we need to reclaim that. look at the 19th century, sanitary movement, which they didn't know that clean water would make us that much healthier. they had ideas and none was actually true but they fought for clean water and better

housing and sanitation. in the face of a lot of scientific uncertainty and said this what we need. we need to toe reform our public health to protect ourselves and doesn't matter if it disrupt commerce weapon as a public are going to demand that. there was a social movement that did that. i feel like that's the big missing factor now. as a public we're very sanguine to say, well, a new disease, let's throw some money at the drug companies and get some scientists to come up with a magic pill or drug that will fix the problem. what we're finding that's not enough. >> i think it's a matter of perception. we have a certain perception about how to handle anything that has to do with disease. right? so i have -- i'm a swimmer and i have a shoulder thing going on, and it's bugging me so i went to the doctor, and the doctor said, you have bur -- temperature

situs and tendinitis and you should gate cortisone shot. i thought, this the first time i see you and you want to give me a court own shot. then i went to my acupuncturist and he said i'm going to stick a need until your arm for a couple of weeks and you won't have to get that shot. but it that the medicalized, immediate solution to a problem that, needles are going to take longer to get me back in the pool swimming, but it's going to be longer, it's going to be more permanent and i won't have any side effects. i feel like this is what we as consumers are fed in our personal lives so when we take our perception to global health and to these matters of pandemics like ebola, the think the only thing we can do is come up with a drug or vaccine, when what we really need to do is think about poverty, think about surveillance and think about

health systems. they all need to be in countries where they're nonexistence, they need to be built if we're going be to protected from things coming across our boreds we need to care about how well the sufferance system -- surveillance systems are in these other countries. with took a porch the money we spend on global health, much of it come backs to western labs and to scientist' salaries and decided we should spend this on different wives creating a better surveillance system. the products we actually produce in those labs with last longer and they'll work better. so, our perception is off. the solution is always a medicalized one and it's exactly -- the germ theory led us there. we came to understand germs as

the devices that caused illness, and our first response was to come up with ways to prevent those illnesses using first vaccines and then chemistry, but it's more than that. we need to take a broader view. >> thank you very much. i'd like to open up -- does someone have a microphone for questions? okay. i'm going repeat the question in case anyone doesn't hear it. >> hi. thank you for the presentation. i have a question. i have noticed that every time there is an outbreak, whether it's ebola or zika virus, there are -- seems to be a fringe group where there's conspiracy theorists. as somebody who is not seeking out those i was amazes by the number that just popped up on my social media feed. people saying zika virus is

cause bid gmo mosquitoes or gmo crops or something else. so you have a public that is, one, not even taking the threat seriously and claiming it's a big conspiracy, and saying, you know, any vaccine that might be preventive is out of the question for them, and even any preventive measures. my question is, what are public health organizations, ngos and governments doing to try to combat that? even though this is a very fringe group but the power or the internet, these theories are spreading almost like a virus. >> i think you're absolutely right. this is something i go into in the chapter of the book, is why is it that there's so little trust of our public health authorities that when we even have good idea that zika is being carried by mosquitoes, we have good evidence for all these things. why is its, then, that there are these -- groups of people who very fervently believe otherwise

and come up with alternative theories and i think our traditional response is to say, well, they're ignorant, they're not literal scientifically, it has dismiss it emthe same thing we do with people who don't want to take vaccines. they're dumb, backwards, selfish, whatever. that's a real mistake. what i look at in the book is what if we trace that back in where does the mistrust come from? and what -- it does come from something real. that people are miss -- miss trustle for medical science. karen tells the great example. the mistrust of chemical contaminants and environment and the syringe in your body, those are all in my opinion, real concerns. that need to be addressed in an honest way. so we can't just say, dismiss these alternate theories as

conspiracies coming from muddled minds. i think they come from somewhere valley they need to be addressed in a real way, and i don't think we have done yet. >> i agree. i think it's the other side of the coin, where probably the majority of people would assume that a medical response to a health problem is the most appropriate when perhaps it's not. there's a pushback on that because the farm suit industries have -- pharmaceutical industries are perceived -- why shy trust you when your commercial interests aren't in line with my personal interests? so it's exactly what sonia said. i view it as the extremes that are coming from a public that is too trusting of the medicalized

approach tower own health. >> you were talking about basically, i guess, between the public and private interests, getting all mixed in, i'm wondering if you find that -- i know ag laws are usually based on the way animals are treat but do you find that those same laws are hindering getting accurate information about how much waste is on these factory farms and how much -- like, how big the dish thinkow called the lagoons -- the manure lagoons. from looking at that side of things from an animal rights perspective ex-never put it together with perhaps learning where these pathogens are coming from. >> i'm not that familiar with the laws around disclosures

about these things. these are estimates that other people put together that i'm sympathizing in the book and my research. so i don't know. but of course in all of these areas there's a great deal of proprietary secrecy so it's really about -- my research method is looking into the gray lit tour and digging around in unlikely places to find some of this data, and then putting it together into a larger story. >> on the issue of -- [inaudible] -- often say that doctors are casually overprescribes and i'm sure there's valid detroit that and also the case dish lived in the middle east for a long time, and you can buy antibiotics any places. public health official in ohman, which has advanced medical system, said the problem sometimes is not that's doctors -- the doctor may do the right prescription.

the patient, maybe a bedoin, gets the prescription, goes home, after a few days feels better and throws its away, or doesn't feel better and throws them airplane it doesn't work. so no matter what happens, it advances the bacterial resistance. >> i'll take that one as the physician up here. i think it's a good observation. the questions about monitoring of prescription practices for human beings, and i think actually more importantly for animals, the tons of antibiotics actually used in animals are an even greater threat potentially to us and we have seen strong data in european countries, which have bans the prescription of antibiotics as growth enhancer for animals. so i think that access to and

appropriate use of antibiotics is incredibly important in order to try to preserve those that we do have that still function against our most dangerous pathogens. >> first, thank you for coming. a very interesting topic. to get at that original -- that last question, it's interesting that specific issue of patient compliance or adherence is directly informed our approach to tuberculosis, directive therapy is now world standard regarding that specific disease combating drug resistance. i wanted to ask you about mosquito-born illness, this new use of genetically modified mosquitoes or bacterially infected mosquitoes, which is something i hadn't heard of until recently. if you could talk about that as a new disease control approach.

>> we both want to answer that question. >> we were just talking about this before we came on. we talked enough to entomologists that come up with the wonderful technology and it's exciting technology on how you can genetically modify a mosquito, a male mosquito, to prevent pregnancy of female mosquitoes but they stopped there and then everyone else extrapolates and starts talking about using these genetically modified mosquitoes to displace natural mosquitoes -- excuse me -- natural habitat and entomologists say we're pretty sure you can't but we have this technology and we're still working with it. >> i think it's interesting, too, that there's been so much press into these gm mosquitoes and especially with zika coming

now, and yet the -- it's actually a very delicate thing to do to disrupt transmission of these diseases you. luke at malaria or zika you're looking at only female infected mosquitoes who are the problem. that's the subset of the population, on 0 top of which a mosquito has to bite one person, get infected, wait five to seven days before they're infect -- before they're infective to another person. so we're talking about the grandmother of mosquitoes. the only ones you need to kill. >> jeerat crick mosquitoes. >> the old ladies, and we don't -- the whole way we're purchasing mosquito control is very blunt tool for a very delicate task. we don't need to kill all the mosquitoes and we don't know how much mosquito control you would have to do, like would you have to get down 99% control in order to actually reduce transmission?

because who knows, maybe the female grandmother mosquitoes. resilient. we don't know their habitses because we're not studying it in an ecological way. so there's a big push to use the latest technology but huge questions whether it will work. all the mosquito control they've been doing for dengue for years has not worked. to diminish dengue. >> mosquitoes are adaptable in zambia, there is an effort to make sure that a set number of villages were using bed nets properly. so there were a lot of public health -- a lot of american public health experts, living in these villages, working with the villagers. an intense effort to make sure the villages all used their bed nets properly. if they're not used properly and many parts of africa and all

kinds of bad outcomes have developed because of that. especially an excellent story in "the new york times" about this if you want to look it up. in the victims that's entomologist found when there was almost 100% bed net coverage the mosquitoes changed their biting habits and they bit earlier. they find a way. they're adaptable. they're small, and they can change their habits pretty quickly. so africa's main malaria carrier is a rural mosquito, but -- and as africa urbanizes their projections that suggest malaria will not be as large a problem because it's a royal mosquito. well, indiays malaria carrier is an urban mosquito. these mosquitoes will adapt. as africa urbanizes, there's no

reason to believe that the mosquito won't adapt to that and become an urban mosquito. so, the frustrating part of reading the news is seeing a simplistic representation of how these insects operate in nature, knowing -- i know just enough to be dangerous but i know this is a lot harder said than done. if it were easy we would have done it. plenty of diseases before zika that screened for mosquito elimination and it's not do-able. what we can do is work on the conditions that people live in so that they're not exposed to mosquitoes. we know that works. but that's too politically difficult to we don't do and it so we try to eliminate mosquitoes as a species. >> last question. >> in addition to mosquito transmission, how many of the

emerging viruses are sexually transmitted? >> so, the question was, how many of these emerging virus are sexually transmitted in addition to transmission through vectors. >> i think zika is really interesting example of that. as far as i knoll the only mosquito-born virus that is also transmitted sexually. and so that allows it to spread beyond where the mosquitoes are climatically present. so that's going to be an interesting development in how that disease flows. that's the only one that has been able to do that, that we know of. >> well, with reference to mosquito-born, you know ebola also and there's an interesting project going on in south africa right now, looking at the viral population of the prostate, and so i'll be very interested to see because it's a clever place for a virus to hide.

we may learn more. >> i think -- >> i had a question. this is really been fascinating. really fascinating. thank you. my question is, so, we keep on running from one part of the world to another. like, oh, ebola, and then everybody is running to work on ebola. oh, my god, zika. everybody is in brazil. when you look at the world and you look at just where you think we're going next with our next run to the barn after the barn door is left open. where what due doo you think is coming up? >> well, that's that the book is about. i think you're right. the million dollar question. can we track this back so that we can look at the drivers of where these path ogenerals are

coming -- pathogens coming rather than waiting until they erupt and have outbreaks of untreatable disease and then scurrying to come up with drugs and vaccines to throw at it, and i think that's been our model and maybe that would work okay if we didn't have so many new pathogens emerge, but the way we live today, we do. so i think we're going to have to go backward and look at access to health care in poor communities, restoring wildlife habitat, addressing the intensification of agriculture and livestock waste and all these thing knows are drivers. we can predict where it's most likely to happen and emerging disease experts have come up with maps of hot spots of where path jones are most likely to emerge. so we can't track every single microbe but in those places we can do active surveillance to see where are the microbes

changing, getting? let's try to detect these things before they start to cause disease, and that's a technological approach but by doing that, we will learn so much more about the underlying conditions that lead to these, that then we get this huge opportunity to address those. >> thank you so much. thank you all. applause [applause] >> i'd like to thank all of you for four attention. please tomorrow fill out the evaluations. enjoy the rest of the festival, and sonia and karen will be here until 3:30 to answer additional questions and sign books. thank you. that conclude's booktv's coverage of the virginia festival of the book.

you can watch any of the programs we aired this weekend online at booktv.org. >> this is booktv, on c-span 2. television for serious readers. here's our primetime lineup for tonight. starting at 7:00 p.m. eastern, john steele gordon provides a history of the washington monument. then at 8:00, michael waldman, president of nyu's brennan center for justice, explores voting rights in america. on after words at 9:00 p.m. eastern, nancy cohen explores the as vanses women have made in politics and the possibility of a female president. then at 10:00, a look at the relationship between pauly murray, cofounder of the national organization for women, and first lady, eleanor roosevelt. and we wrap up booktv in primetime at 11:15 with jim downs, who chronicles the gay rights movement of the 1970s in his book "stand by me."

that all happens tonight on c-span 2's booktv. >> booktv continues now with peter ross range. in his book, "1924" he takes a look at the year that defineed adolph hitler's ideas and led to his political rise in germany. >> hello and thanks to everybody for coming indoor's an beautiful winter day. you probably had to stop at the girl scout cookie stand on the way in, but at least you're in here. thanks for coming. i handed out a timeline before we started, to give you a little sense ofhy of whysete about 1924. i don't know if there were enough to go around. you can maybe share them. if you look at that you see that we're talking about the early period of hitler's political life, not the third reich, the war and the holocaust but the

years leading up to his seizure of power in 1933678 this period was 14 years long and coincidence -- started a year later than the vymah republic and breaks into two big parts. the first part is the revolutionary part, the first four years leading up to -- 1923 and the second big part is the eight years in 1925, the long march to power, the electoral period. he also referred to as the legal period. the first four years he was trying to gain power illegally through revolution, the last eight years through legal means new orleans, not counting the street fighting. between the two periods lies 1924. in my research, before i even decided to do this book, i noticed that 1924 seemed to me to be a somewhat neglected

period of the hitler saga. and on top of that i noticed it seemed to be a very important period, period when hitler's political arc shifted from being an impetus revolutionary to being a patient political player. he had time in prison to reflect on the error of his ways and on the fact that he was probably not going to be able to persuade the military to join him in a coup, and that he had to figure out some other way to gain power, and he said to one of his friends in prison, outvoting them will take longer than outshooting them but at least the result will be guaranteed by their constitution. he was very clear about using the democratic process to arrive at an undemocratic end. he said at another point, we will participate in parliament for the purpose of taking and it destroying it. these things were not secrets. and when i began this research,

i was spliced by some of the thing is came across. i had no idea, for instance, that he attempted -- was such a close run thing. this was not a comic opera event, not a drunking brawl in a beer hall. beer halls were used for political meetings in bavaria and but for a few tactical errors hitler might haved a least taken back -- or could have taken -- hitler was almost killed. another one of the many what-ifs along the way of the hitler biography that could have changed history, but the man next to him was killed instead. another surprise to me was that hitler hatt -- had threatened suicide three times and another

surprise was he tried suicide even he was being captured two days later. when he got into prison, 38 miles west of munich in the town of lanceberg help went into a suicidal depression. his only recourse at that point wasss -- suicide by starvation and then the began a period of contemplation and reflection and sort of a 40-days and nights in the wilderness period, as i like to think of it. during which he wrote a 60-page document, which is lost to history but we know he did it, through certain things that came out in his trial, which was kind of a run-up of the trial speeches and the writeing of "mein kampf." and during this period of two and a half months of work only the document he regained his mojo, 0 so speak, and that was a

messianic. he was the only one who could save germany and began to regain the confident which had made him a dictatorial leader of an upstart party in the first place. i was at surprised to learn in his trial the whereas allowed to make a nearly four-hour speech which rivetted the courtroom. the judge thought he had to let hitler have the run of the courtroom for a variety of complicated reason considers explained in the book, and then at the end of the trial he made another two and a half hour speech, and in between he was up and down quite a bit in german court procedure, then and now, the defendants are allowed to question witnesses. accomplish hitler did so the point of driving one of the most important witnesses right out of the courtroom, lieutenant general. i was also surprised to learn that hitler had written "mein

kampf," not dictated it as legend has and it he wrote it on a recommendington portable typewriter made one month earlier in new york. and it was given to him by the wife of a piano manufacturers named beckstein. thank you. he had so many patrons and pacetron esses it's hard to keep up. was also surprised to learn he wrote "mein kampf" in four and a half months. this is the first volume. i didn't know until i got into this that there are in fact two volumes, although you usually buy it as a one-volume book. and that another big surprise was that hitler almost blew his early release from prison, which is crucial to his later career, because he lusted so much after a new shiny touring car.

a benz because mercedes and benz had not combined. so a lot of interesting items and that convinced me there was a book to be written here...

>> people sleep late and it would work out great. when he heard thursday night there was a major speech being held in this big beer hall on the east side of munich, we told 3,000 people, and the speech would be by the civilian led of government who was in fact a dictator that point. it is complicated but explained in the book. and along with him would be the two military heads of the government at the time. this is why the french started the beer hall.

tender marches in, crasing the place and takes it by storm and convin convinces these three men to join him and his crew for a march on berlin. it comes from the mussolini model from the march on rome a year earlier and connected to a revolutionary style of fighting from a man who staged his revolution in turkey from outside the capitol. whether than face the government head-on he used this method and it worked. starting a revolution outside of

the capitol was part of the model. the leader goofed, however. he had been taken hostage by hitler but they let him go. these guys soon as they got out they turned coat again. and hitler's crew failed. as they marched through the city, they did get a lot of support. people were cheering and

cheering to police and bavarian state forces who were trying to control them. in the end they came just to the other side of the center of town to the square beside the field marshallal hall memorial and there was a group of bavarian piece who ordered hitler's people to stop and they didn't and the result was four people being killed and hitler's capture two days later and his time in prison. his time in prison was very interesting. we mentioned prisoners hardening their beliefs under hard time but hitler hardened the believes during light times.

there was a picture in the book showing the prison not being a fortress but the name in german meant fortress. the prisoners had rooms more like dorm rooms, open doors all day, four-six hours outdoor time, they could wear their own clothe and got better food than the rest of the prisoners in the prison which held 500 other inmates. hitler had a lot of time to read, talk, and walk around the gardner. you will see him walking around the garden and looking a little porky. this is because hitler got a lot of visitors, more than 350, during this time in prison n,

many women and all of them bearing gifts and they were often a play to his famous sweet tooth and the famous german baked good pastries. he put on, some say, up to ten pounds while in prison. he did use this time for reflection. when he regained his mojo. this is an extremist and what we regard as a crazy guy and that meant conquering the world. finally, after the trial we decided it was time to write this down. several accounts of what may have got him going on the book. one is that one of the fellow prisoners had gotten sick and tired of hitler dominating all

of the conversations. hitler only knew one kind of conversations; him talking. there is another reasonable speculation and that is he needed the money. we know he needed the money. he wrote one letter saying my l lawyers' bills make may hair stand up. but i think the main reason is the guy needed to talk. he had an audience of only 40 guys. fellow people convicted of activities along with him and that is not a big enough audience for a guy like hitler.

this is a guy who dropped out of high school, never got a degree in anything, was rejected from art school, very smart, well-read, quicker mind than anybody in most rooms, and a wi widely eclectic drive of information and a famously strong memory but he had nothing credentially and he unloaded it in this book we wrote for four and a half months. in a letter home, he said i write in the morning. there are other reports of hitler banging away. i clearly wondered how would the other 40 guys put up with that and the answer i got back was remember most of these guys were sold soldiers in world war one.

without world war one there is no hitler i think most historians would tell you. one of the ones i quote in the book has said that they were used to early morning activity as soldiers. then he would often work until midnight for which he had to pay an extra fee to keep the lights turned on since the curfew was at ten o'clock. everybody else had to turn their lights off at ten but he was able to keep it on until 12:00 if he paid a fee. he would read parts of the book to hess from time to time. that is where the rumor arose that said he dictated the book to hess but there has been return showing this would have been impossible and the legend started with one prison guard talking about a time he heard

hitler's voice coming through the closed door of hess' or hitler's cell. they were in the room and he said hitler was dictating to hess and it stuck with us for 65 years before knocked down for better research. what he was doing was reading to hess. hitler made a habit of reading to him. hess was, by comparison to most of the guys in the prison, was an educated man. his father was a big merchant and he came from egypt. he had this back and forth, and then it gets complicated and he and hess have a falling out. that is chapter ten. hitler finished the bock by september and is looking for a publisher. there is a little bitting war. he goes with the nazi publisher

who had no money at the time. turned out to be a good decision. by keeping it in the family so to speak he became a rich man. this book sold 12 million copies before he died. hitler had been looking out the window a lot. he was on the second floor. the bars are the same. you will see a picture of him standing by the window twice in the book. nothing has changed about the cell that way. the inner wall is all gone. it is just a big open room now. but the outer walls and windows are the same and from this window you can see over the prison wall because it is on the second floor. you can see cars going back and forth and you know, a few hundred yards away there was an important road connecting the towns. and he was a sucker for beautiful cars. you know? even though he was anti-modernist he had a weakness for technology and in particularly cars.

he got his heart set on getting a new car and probably a chafer by the time he got out. he started working the local benze dealer who was on the same street as the famous nazi newspaper. and he had them come visit him and talk about what color and horsepower he needed. the guy left and hitler quickly wrote him a letter saying please take this to the top of the benze head quarter and see if you can get me a discount. with the lawyer bills and the marks and $20,000 is too much. here is the future head of the nazi party who is on the same

type writer just wrote "mind comp" he is haggling for a deal for a new benze. he needs to get it to the guy's hands by monday and it was friday. the only way to make it fit was to smuggle the letter out. the mail in europe was delivered on the same say in munich. if he got it into the mail on monday he would have it by monday night. this letter made it but the soert things happened that exposed the smuggling. because of that, hitler's planned release at the end of september was stopped.

the prosecutor and the munich police put together about why hitler shouldn't be released or deported to austria which he should have been for staging the crew. after a three month back and forth, should where give it away? yeah. they let him out. that was another stepping stone that propelled hitler back to the stream of things. he was very much under the mindframe of this.

it stayed circulated that "mind comp" was a best-seller and this is true. my dear wife is passing out documents. there is not enough to go around but maybe every other person keep one but it will help you understand what i am about to explain. the book was published by an academic institution uin german because the publication ran out. the fact it has become a best-seller is taken by many at glance to be a bad sign. does it mean there is nazis support again? what about the backlash against the immigrant wave?

i see it as the opposite and think it is a good thing. i will explain it with a prop here in a second. this is "mind comp" and this as a fairly typical version at the time. there are more than a thousand printings. the cover has changed and a lot has changed but this is a typical looking version of it. this is the one i used in 1943 people's edition.

this is what i call the old "mind comp". this is the new "mind comp" 12 pounds! six pounds each. this is volume one. this is volume two. what this is is it is a totally academically antoted version of "mind comp". the footnotes outnumber hitler's words by a long shot. the way it has been organized it is compared to the tal met. dan nickman first brought that

to my attention a year and a half ago. there is a picturing of an old bible and as you see from the highlighted sections those are hitler's words and the rest are commentary. and that example, posted online, here is an example that has even more footnoting and in some cases it goes over to another full spread. so three and a half pages of footnotes to go with this much text. you will see it is very much like an old bible. just to wrap it up quickly, what this thing has done in my opinion is they destroyed "mind comp". i say this having spent quite a bit of time with this new version. you cannot read the damn thing because you are always getting

int int interrupted. you can't read it because it takes forever. the first two pages, for example, of nation and race, the most notorious chapter in the first volume has 15 footnotes that run up to 150-250 words so this is serious stuff. and the footnotes have footnotes. this is scholarly work. the question remains still no self respecting neo-nazi would buy this thing. you can get the pure hitler for free on the internet as a download. and when you try reading hitler with all of these interruptions and footnotes you don't get hitler. you get this broken up thing

that is totally deconstructed because they show the lives and half truths and things that make it impossible to get with the flow of hitler. i think my time on this stuff has run out. i want to thank you for listening and i am happy to take some questions. it is show time. we are on c-span. do we have curious questions? >> incredible amount of research that had to go into this. i know you mentioned a graduate student who was your research assistant. can you talk about the role of your research student, how you found the grad student, and what

they did for you. >> i started quiry the representation in munich for recommendations on an assistant. this grad student had been working for them for a while so she came through. she was actually a canadian but is totally fluent in german and finishing her masters in german and turned out to be a great find. the best single thing she did for me was reach out through her network to a historian who told us about a book over here that turned out to be a 500 page two volume scrap book of clippings from hitler's trial. it came as a stunning surprise to me nobody has written a book about this trial. it is one of the most important trials in history when you consider the consequences and plenty of people said that at the time. no book in german or english.

and two main sources for this information. one is the trial transcript which thank god somebody put together 20 or 30 years ago. and the other is the clippings. if i had to go find these clippings individually it is very hard. germany is at war. a lot of stuff is lost. somebody made a scrapbook so i have about 500 actual clippings day by day. hitler's trial was over five weeks and 25 trial days so you can imagine the amount of reporting. it was lovely reporting. wonderful and lively lightning and gives you everything the trial transcript doesn't give you. so courtney in munich i give great thanks for that still. yes, sir? >> did you write this book as a cautionary tale in any way?

not to mention any names. >> well, i started two years ago so i could not foresee what would be happening at this stage of the political campaign. but i am happy for to be taken that way. anyone woo does research on hitler, or the third reich, is writing a cautionary tale. >> i read "mind comp" a couple times over the years. one thing that sticks out in my mind is hitler said no political leader has ever reached the heighth of his career except for the spoken word. i had heard, i group in switzerland, i heard him speak years ago and he was mez

merizing. >> he did say no revolution has ever been brought about in writing. he said this in writing. he put it down even as he was doing it. he did say, by the way, i forgot to mention, he called his time in prison my university education at state expense and this was his dissertation. true. he had already, of course, been making speeches for four years when he was in prison.

the first question is why did he get such a short question after being convicted of treason and the answer is he almost didn't even get that. the trial was skewed from the beginning by the choice of the judge who was a known

right-winger who already pardoned someone and gave them soft time and in fact gave hitler parole for an earlier crime, breach of peace, for bashing the head of on opponent in a beer hall one time. he should have been convicted of violating his parole but wasn't. so the fix was in from the beginning by the choice of this judge. at the same time, the bavarian authorities, as you will read, were ringing their hands about how lenient he was being during the trial. they had a so-called people's court in action. this was the next to the last trial they did before going out of business which included three

lay judges. the judge needed four votes to convict. the lay judges were so taken with hitler and his speeches they didn't want to convict at all. the head judge, the right winger, had to convince him we have to do this. we admitted to the deed but denied the crime. he said it is no crime because they are criminals. the whole government was based on a crime which is a proclaiming of a government by social democrats a germany was going down the tubes in the squar the kaiser was gone out of town. they agreed to the five-year sentence, which was the minimum, the span was five years to life is what he could have gotten. the minimum, he was able to get the minimum only by hitler

guaranteeing, parole in six months. hitler lost the try and won the war. he lost the legal battle but won the political battle. he emerged from the trial a political hero. and rogers' other question was had he gotten 10-20 years might he have disappeared from the political landscape and my guess is yes and i base that partly on what many others are written. mark, can you come up, mark? >> 70 years historians have been attempting to determine for some time when hitler's anti semitism became exterminations. if you were a german and bought "mind comp" when it came

out could you have known? >> the answer is no. not the extermination part. that is a huge debated part of the hitler saga. even after the meetings how much did hitler know and control things. if you bought the book, 1925 which it was published, and the second volume in 1926, all you would see is rabid anti semitic behavior. he is talking about world war one and what a mess it was and why it should not have happened or why it was run wrongly by the existing government. he is blaming it on the stab in the back people and he said if only 12-15,000 of these

corrupters of the people had been held under gas at the beginning a million good german lives would have been saved. a lot of people lept from that to the conclusion he was going to do gas chambers but the expe experts will tell you you cannot make that connection. when he became an extermnati extermnationist i don't have the answer. it is way beyond the time i studies, i think. yes? >> what were his favorite books? >> great question, teddy.

there are climes read all of these big names. i read a book called "viena" about his years there and there is a claim by one of his si sidekicks that he read several things in prison but that is subject to scrutiny. hitler claims to have read over 500 books. we don't know. we know he fudged in "mind comp" a lot. we know how convincing sounding stuff was way off or a little off or wrong.

fo hitl it is said only three our four tenant -- ten attributions. when the english version is available, you will see a lot of his statement and ideas can be traced back to certain racist writers and then the classics out there as well of the middle of the 19th-century. there is a very long way of saying there is a kind of a small hitler cannon you can

point to. >> is it a stretch or are there similarities between the things hitler said and what trump is saying now? >> i knew i could count on you to bring that up. i am trying duck and dodge. i am not covering the campaign so i know as much as you do. i recommend peter burgan's piece on this. there was a flurry of comparisons of trump to hitler a month and a half ago and i resisted to get into that fray because it can be dangerous to make comparison to hitler. but the thing that does strike me the most about the similarities between the two is their own self-belief.

hitler's solution for germany was hitler and trump's solution for america is trump. if you look at peter's piece you see a more scientific piece on the science on the great man theory and what this complex includes and it includes that. anymore? thank you very much. [applause] >> we come everyone coming up to the front. copies of "1924" are on sale at the back.

>> when i tune into it on the weekend, it is usually authors sharing new stories. >> watching authors on booktv is the best television for serious readers. >> they can have a longer conversation and dive into the subjects. >> booktv weekend brings you author after author that spotlights the work of fascinating people. >> i love booktv and i am a c-span fan. >> hello and welcome to a panel

with three pulitzer prize winners talking about pig flu. we are live on c-span and i am john nickels. you cannot applaud when you hear things you like and where you will be asking questions soon so be ready for it. let me run down the panel here and talk about our three authors for just a moment and then we will get into conversation. we have to my side here, dave marinas, and dave is a 39 year veteran of the "washington post" which as a survival of the fittest by many measures. he's here to talk about many

things but mainly his relatively new book on top of a long list of great books" once in a great city; a detroit story" which for those who have been following crisis and water issue a book about detroit is a relevant thing. [applause] >> next is michael hill tech and he has been just about forever, although earlier in other places, but about forever at the "los angeles times" and michael has written for a long time about the intersection of science, technology and politics. his new book is titled "big science" and it is an incredible story of how science went from being important, valid and

meaningful to having a lot of money and being very big. gilbert is last on the panel and he is long associated with a number of papers. he was briefly at the "washington post," briefly at the "new york times" and a lot of association with the philadelphia enquirer for many years. his first pulitzer came with the work at the "pottsville republican" and how many awards for that? >> just one. >> his book is "million ball" which is an incredible story about how sports went big. so we have a panel about bigness here. and oddly enough in america, this interesting country -- >> i would say huge. >> it is going to be a huge

panel i was going to say because when america goes big it is very interesting the money and power comes real fast with it. i want to begin with one quick note that i think is important. these three gentlemen all came out of daily newspapers. this country still has daily newspapers. they are the place where you still maintain a newsroom. you try, not also successfully to cover a lot of stuff and you actually try to go deep and tell stories that go beyond the click, the rating of the moment. if we never had a time where we needed three people to go big in journalism this is it. yel start with dave and your book, you chose to write about detroit and dwyou do a remarkab

thing and take lot of personality but i was struck by the reverend lavon clarence franklin. and reverend franklin new smoky robinson and walter ruther and martin luther king junior and mitt romney's dad. tell us about reverend franklin. >> you are right. he is an intersection in the book. i attempted to write about what detroit gave america which is a huge amount. not just cars but the soundtrack of my generation and the labor movement; the heart of the u.s.

labor movements, and civil rights. reverend franklin was the most poplar preacher in detroit in the '50s and '60s. this church was so big that people during good weather would stand outside by the hundreds the too listen to his sermon by the loud speaker. and during the week we traveled with this three taught daughters, one who was aretha franklin and travel to rallies where people called out for his ceremose sermon like we was a rock star. when aretha was starting to rise reverend franklin got interested in being part of the civil

rights movement and brought to detroit that june martin luther king. '63 was the crucial year of birmingham and the summer of civil rights. the united auto workers had been the civil rights bank for that period and they are the ones who provided the bail money to get king and his people out of jail in birmingham. king comes to detroit on june 23 rd 1963 and walks arm and arm with franklin and the progressive police chief who was brought in after years of tension with the african-american community and the police, much like what we see today, sadly it has been there for a long time and hasn't improved much. they walked down woodward avenue, 150,000 people, the largest civil rights rally, to

that point, in american civil history. arrived at cobalt hall and franklin brings king and king delivered the first major version of the "i have a dream speech" it happened in detroit first and it was reverend franklin, this incredibly colorful character who wore flamboyant clothes and was out at the different clubs in town and was the detroit freech preacher of the time but franklin made it happen at a critical time in history. >> in your book, at the closing, the last page is this incredible -- i wish i could hold it up. it is a group of circles with different prominent figures and all arrows of intersection.

>> i drew it myself. >> did you? >> it wasn't that well-drawn. >> much bet drawn on if the book than by desk. the speech that martin luther gave was the first talking speech recorded. all of the threats of the book come together and that is what the diagram shows. >> and mitt romney's dad keeps floating in as a pretty good guy. >> well, since, you know, i consider race the american delima and it certainly was in detroit right at the heart of every problem that detroit had going back to 1943 and a horrible race riot during world

war ii between whites to came up from appalachia and the african-americans coming up. but mitt's dad was very progressive on race and the huge issue of the period was open housing. there were vigilante squads trying to prevent african-americans from moving in in many neighborhoods. and george romney supported open housing laws during that period. in that sense, he was more progressive i would say, his son. >> pretty good guy. we will come back and talk about intersections between the books particularly with regard to money and power.

>> he is a higher achiever and not associated with this anymore but i am. >> it is a wonderful paper. >> at the very close of it there was much to talk about with decay and challenges of detroit but you have this beautiful closing with martha reaves. >> i interviewed her for the book. she was 72 when i talked to her. i have on tape interviews with barack obama, bill clinton, mohammed ali and other people but she describes as a

16-year-old taught classical musical training she sang at ford auditorium and when interviewing her she broke into the sign and hit the high note at the age 72. so, yes, the first motor town review left detroit in 1962 in october right when the cuban missile crisis is breaking out. their first stop was the howard theater in washington, d.c. 50 years later my wife and some friends went to the theater and martha reaves, 72, is up on stage dancing in the streets. a lot of things are afemoral. they come and go. cities rise and fall and there is composition and decomposition but motown is forever. [applause] >> michael, your book looks at

how science went big. you do the most dangerous thing, but yrng i think you pulled it off. you go and look around and find the guy who was the vehicle by which science went big and it is ernest orlando lawrence who we associate with nuclear physics. but you make him an incredibly nuance figure in which he is sitting in eisenhower's office or running with other people. tell us about ernest lawrence. >> as you alluded it would be fair to think of him as the reverend franklin of physics. lawrence during his life was the most famous american-born scientist in the country.

he was on ""time" magazine in 1938 during what we think of as the era of print. he would be interviewed on any specific development of the age and social and economic and political issues as well. if professor lawrence said something, you could take to to the bank. he was the scientific oracle of his time to the degree we don't have anymore and i don't think we could point to anyone in science who had his level of authority and respect. it is arrived by the invention of the cyclotron which was the most efficient atom smasher at time when physics needed new equipment to delve into the world of the natural world and the atomic nucleus.

the early of small scientist who had gone as far as they could with the tools nature gave them. the natural emissions from radium and plutonium. they knew the next tool had to be derived from human energy. and it was said i would like to see someone invent an appear raterous that can give us a thousand electron volts and sit comfortablely in a room. and it was ernest that delivered that. by inventing the cyclotron he brought together governments, universities, and you could not build the equipment he invented

or the latest generations without incorporating industry, the military, government funding, all of these things into science so he really was the god father as i argue of the military industrial complex. it was only three or four years after his death when eisenhower said we are together and they will pursue their own interest and the public will be left behind and that has lasted to today. big science is all around us on the campus. ernest lawrence's first cyc cyclotron cost less than $100 in material and fit in the palm of his hand.

the latest iteration of that invention is a large colliollid that cost $9 billion and sits underground. we are debating on whether we are spending too much on these projects, cheating other needs of society because we are so involved in monumental science of a sort that lawrence began, he continued the process through his role in the manhattan project which is probably the most important scientific figure. more important than his friend and later bitter enemy.

and continuing this after the war. he started off as a scientific hero but ended with a shadow over his legacy. >> i read back over eisenhower's speech in preparation for this and if you haven't done that you should. it is less a speech about the military and more about science. it is really a speech about big science. >> that is true. and in his speech -- and you are right. it was precedent, amazingly if you read it today, you would say this is the world we live in. he was talking about the threat to science and scientist from the big money and military and and industry in what should be the independent, straight forward search for the truth. >> last thing i want to ask you about. your book, only a small session, but you redeem herald stason.

just for the audience -- if you know who he is, he passed away not too long ago and ran for president nine or ten times and became something of a national comic relief but as a young man -- >> he was a remarkable figure and he made himself into a national joke by continually running for president at a point when -- i don't think if it was an expression of vanity or triumph of hope over reality -- but earlier in his career he was a successful governor and brought to washington by dwight eisenhower and put in charge of disarmament at a time we were dancing with the soviet union on how to monitor test of atomic

weapons and how disarm. stason told eisenhower to introduce him to the public as this secretary of peace and he thought about and didn't but stason did go out there saying i am his secretary of peace. his influence did last and led to, in a way, the first advances in disarmorment negotiations. >> and michael's book does a good job of weaving all of these scientist into how we should look at this. this great wrestling over whether we will see where science can go no matter what or maybe put a few contraints --

c constrains on it. >> this is when science became political. they tried to keep it out of the lab but couldn't keep politics out. >> michael hilt? >> [applause]. are >> gilbert -- your book has as much politics and money in it as a book about the auto industry and a book about big science. you are looking at big sports. you correctly point out there are many figures who float through here but i was especially interested in your intellectual and personal interaction with a certain coach at the university of alabama. >> lack of interaction. >> yeah, exactly. scombl >> nick sabin who is getting $7

million a year which is ten times what the president of the united states got and 70 times what a full professor got. you devote a bit of time to this. tell me about that and how we learn. >> this book is a book basically about big football, really. college football. i became interested in the economics of big football and how it became codified over the decades and how the revenue grew here in '85 to up here in 2011-2012 which was the period where was really looking at. i wanted to explain the business model and how it got there. part of that, you cannot help but look at coach's salaries. the salaries for coaches at the major universities have doubled over the years particularly in

the last decade. sabin was interesting to me because i actually got to sit down with sabin way back in 199 when he left michigan state. he was earning $697,000 as the football coach at michigan state. put this on the table right away. sabin is a terrific football coach. he is the bear brian of our era. but he is a guy who is interested in money, too. he was unhappy at michigan state for two reasons. he thought he was underpaid and didn't think he got enough opportunity to augment the salary on the side like the deals where you go out and do car dealerships or commercials. he felt he was being held back. he is more or less in play at that point in time. and lsu had been going through a tough stretch football-wise at the same time period. they had had a couple loosing years or marginally successful

years and fired their coach and are looking for a new coach so nick sake sabin is on the radar. they send out a booster plane to pick up sabin in the light and bring him down to lsu. who is on the plane to bring him back to lsu? the chancellor of the university who is now the president of the ncaa. if you think anyone is going to try camp down the salaries of coaches or raise issues about this? that is not coming from the ncaa. and i think emrit earns about $2 million. sabin goes to lsu, wins the national championship, goes to the pros and does terribly and someone else comes with a plane to pick him up at al bama.

i am interest in the question of how does the marketplace work for coaches? it turns out there is no marketplace for these coaches per se. it is really the coaches and their agents setting their own salaries. the idea is there are only so many guys who can run a major football program which basically means fill up the stands, bring the money in and win a few games. ...