that allowed the government to restrain expenditure of tainted funds? does no that go back a long timr -- >> the whole history of in persona and forfeiture was dormant until 1970 and congress passed a statute that permitted this kind of activity. it improved the statute in 1984 to remedy defects in the pretrial restraint of assets. it was recently developed, targeting basically drug conspiracies and organized criminal activity. >> and the first time that congress ever applied it to non-tainted property was what year? >> well, the substitute assets provision was added to the basic forfeiture statute had been there at least by 1984. i think it a bit earlier. this provision is different, from the basic forfeiture statute in permitting pretrial

restraint on in assets, but i think it reflects the same basic underlying idea. >> just to be clear so that i understood your earlier answer, the consequence, the necessary consequence of their position is that any state in the union can provide for forfeiture or a freeze of assets pending trial in any assault and battery case, spousal abuse case, criminal negligence, date rape cases in order to make the victim whole, to pay for medical costs, to pay for pain and suffering, and can freeze those assets even if the consequences of that is that in most of those cases most people cannot afford counsel. >> is at the conclusion of the case -- >> that's the consequence of your argument? >> i think yes if there is a monitor assessment that will become provable at the conclusion of the case and the government can show a need to

preserve the assets so that they are available. think about the cases you're talking about. that are cases in which victims have been harmed. serious medical cost maybe issue. if the funds are spent on an attorney they will not be available for compensation. >> and their all cases which this event has not been found guilty. all the governments have to do is provide for a fine and argue, well, if we don't freeze the assets they won't be money left to pay a fine. so this could apply, i guess this is the point. this could apply to every crime on the books. >> i do think the court could draw distinctions among the types defined in the purposes of the find that are at issue. >> have you seen the judgments in the fraud on the market case is? i mean, it isn't too tough in cases involving fraud on the market to find judgments of tens or hundreds of millions of dollars.

judgments in fines after convictions, and that's what i think the question is. the principle of constitutional law that you are advocating would, in fact, permit the freezing of what might be paid afterwards and they find which could be huge amount before the person is convicted. am i right? >> i do think that i was trying to say to the chief justice that there could be distinctions that are drawn among various monetary exactions. i think the strongest cases when they can, station is at issue. all the money come in the context of the medicare fraud case like this, although not required by statute, it will be returned to the medicare trust fund. this is a front against the people. $45 million is something we alleged by fraud. >> it goes to the medicaid trust fund? >> medicare trust fund, provided to the medicare trust fund. the medicare trust fund which represent basically the fiscal interest of the people of the

united states is the victim. >> i'm sorry? >> the medicare trust fund is the victim. so the funds will be returned to the victim. that's the purpose of trying to freeze the funds in a health care case so that they can be returned. >> you are saying that your view, your interpretation, your reading of the statute is the only tenable one, but if one took the view that justice breyer's interpretation, that restraining order means a temporary restraining order, or it was another interpretation put forth in the americans for forfeiture reform brief, because if the judge were to take the position that all three are plausible readings of the statute, but we will pick the one that allows the defendant to have counsel. >> justice ginsburg, and we don't think any of the alternative readings are plausible.

for the reasons i explained, the statute doesn't limit the restraining order to temper relief nor would it make any logical sense to do that because the purpose of this statute was to preserve funds so that it would be available at the conclusion of the case. i also think that the amicus are good is not a tenable one because it reads or equivalent value out of the statute and without reference to the context of the statute, which is to try to make the government the able to be made whole at the conclusion of a case if, in fact, it obtains judgment given a very difficult process of segregating out money in banking and financial type crimes. >> if i could go back to justice alito's question about your interpretation of the statute, i think what justice alito was suggesting was that (a)(2) a would be subsumed on your interpretation commander don't think you got around to

answering that question. >> i think that is true but i think this court understands from arguments last week that superfluity is no stranger to congressional statutes. they do have a different focus so i think it was quite reasonable for congress to make clear what the focus is. to a is aimed at the person is doing the dissipating himself to the person who will obtain the proper by fraud. and he spans the out -- >> interesting that you're essentially saying be expensive outcome mean it covers everything that was covered in more. >> it's not that this is a statute that anyone is reading gives off provisions of fact because section 1345 b. permits restraining orders during the course of the case as are needed to protect the united states against substantial injury. that provision would subsume the

reading that my friend gives. >> do you think there's any -- >> go ahead. >> do you think there's any way to read this statute such that it applies to people who wish to retain counsel as opposed to the other expenditures? >> no, i don't think there's any reading of the statute that exempts counsel but it does give discretion to the district court to entertain arguments. those arguments were made here and rejected. >> thank you counsel. tranfour, you have four minutes remaining. >> thank you, mr. chief justice. i think all of us who heard the argument of monsanto and caplin & drysdale when it was delivered in 1989 understood the line was drawn between tainted and untainted assets. was a line, while the defense bar at its brothers, was a line that was accepted by the court. the government proposes now to move the line and it is essential to make the line disappear altogether.

>> i don't want to use up your rebuttal time i do want ask you to put questions about the statute. first is, did you raise anything about this in your certificati certification? the second is, is there a way to limit this stupid the answer to the first question is no. in our search petitions and for constraint and 11th circuit by the interpretation that been given back in 1999, we focus on the constitutional issue in order to suggest to the court that the doctor of constitutional voip should be triggered. the 11th circuit has concluded the statute -- >> you didn't to anything about constitutional avoidance in your position, did you? >> that is correct. we argued the constitution would be violated, because this court in it its its discretion and hed andy rumsfeld versus fair case, looks at a statute even if the interpretation is offered, the

court has considered those competing interpretations in order to avoid the constitutional issue. justice scalia, in response to questions about property can picture senator anyone heard the argument and read the opinions in monsanto and caplin & drysdale that was much about probably. a dusty acted on information, paints a particular subject and that is the tainted acid. that's what it's called the tainted food. it's counterintuitive to suggest that untainted assets should be treated as tainted as it. there must be a coexistence between the taint theory and the right to counsel of choice, monsanto drew the line, caplin & drysdale to caplin & drysdale to the line and said if the government can establish that the asset is tainted, they can be frozen. nothing about monsanto, nothing but caplin & drysdale suggested that acid of which the government has no present property interest, no relation pac-3, no taint there to speak of can then take and sally's money or a client's pension

funds for representation to use those assets to retain counsel. nothing in this court's acid in those cases just the. natural as a member of the defense bar we would welcome a revisiting of monsanto and caplin & drysdale because caplin & drysdale because the parade of horribles is here today. the government says there is a line. is defined as $1 million, the defendant has to ante up $1 million up front in or to exercise his right to counsel. the right to counsel of choice will have a price tag and it is whatever the government says the maximum fine is. whatever the maximum restitution is, that will be the price that the defendant must pay in advance. the defendant must be according to the government in over the table to exercise sixth amendment writes. we ask the court to reject such an interpretation. >> thank you counsel. the case is submitted. >> here's what's ahead next.

at noon california governor jerry brown and former secretary of defense bill perry on new approaches to reducing threats posed by nuclear weapons. and rode to the widest coverage tonight at 7:00 eastern. bernie sanders campaigning in new york without primary set for tuesday april 19. .. for the nuclear summit getting underway today at the white house.

[inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] >> good morning. welcome to the brookings institution for the latest in the series of distinguished speakers that we have while dumbed to our building on this 100th anniversary year of brookings.

i am pleased today to welcome my friend, prime minister bohuslav sobotka, of the czech republic to address us of the challenges in europe and the eu. as we meet this morning, the prime minister is here for the president's nuclear security summit and has agreed to address us. at the prime minister's career parallels the history of the modern czech republic starting with the fall of communism in 1989. he has been a member of the czech social democratic party since december of 1989 when the late president was assuming the leadership of then

czechoslovakia. pre- minister sobotka participated in the renewal of the czech social democratic activities and the district sees the cofounder of the social democrats which he started in 1990. in 1996 he was elected for the first time to the parliament, the chamber of deputies as the social democratic candidate for the bohemian region. he has been reelected to that position in 2002, 2006 and 2010. from 1998 until 2010, he has been a leader of the social democratic movement. he served as the minister of

finance, he served as the deputy prime minister, has been the chairman of the budget committee of the chamber of deputies and the vice chairman. he's headed to the important committees of the parliament and assumed the chairman in march, 2011 as we are in the american political season getting ready for the conventions, i vividly remember while serving as ambassador attending all of the political conventions including the one in which the prime minister was selected to chair in a tough political battle. so she's a graduate of the faculty of law at the university and is now emerged not only as a

leader in the czech republic and central europe but as we will hear from the pre- minister, czech is playing a stabilizing role of challenges confronting the eu and dealing with the challenges the transatlantic alliance and our allies are confronting around the world. with that, i give you the prime minister bohuslav sobotka. [applause] >> translator: ladies and gentlemen, one year and four months ago i had the honor of unveiling a capital building.

it was a symbol of the fall of communism and building a free democratic society in our country. i quoted several times from his famous address to the congress of 1990, february 1990. i believe you won't find if i used the same address later as my inspiration to me as well. he spoke about his vision which should be filled on the foundations of the general respect for human rights, political pluralism and freedom of choice in which the borders play a lesser role until they become needed no more. he saw his fulfillment in the end of his life already. europe gain stability in the central and eastern countries

but also in the balkans which saw a lot of bloodshed in the '90s. the area that makes it possible to travel freely finally spread to the total of 26 member states. unfortunately as i said once before, none of these achievements is a matter of course. recently this fact has been revealed quite clearly. clearly. europe today struggles with problems on many fronts. the debt crisis, illegal annexation of crimea and the destabilization of ukraine by russia. the civil war in th civil war ad islamic state, terrorism inspired by the islamic state and migration in the crisis. all of these impact in a major

way our thinking as well as the political reality. the biggest problem is facing a permanent crisis management, the feeling that we don't have things under control and europe isn't capable of following its own rules too often. a great number of europeans are disappointed today and fear the future developments. there are growing nationalistic tendencies as well as the demand for radical solutions. the result of the situation is not only the presence of dangers but also increasing discussions and the dilution. the example of the above if it comes to pass can become a major turning point following the second world war.

the internal cohesion of europe is truly at stake and has been painstakingly built and negotiated since the 50s of the last centuries and culminated with the european enlargement by the states including the former czech republic. no european country successfully faces the challenges and tasks ahead of us alone on its own and in isolation from the others. we are in an interconnected world and unless we want to see europe marginalized, we must face it together therefore me and my government fully embraced the idea of the integration into the deepening cooperation face to face with a mention of challenges and the cooperation is the only choice conducive to

stability, prosperity, preservation of the role of europe played in the world and the values it is being built. ladies and gentlemen, the brookings institute celebrates its 100th year anniversary. during the 100 years of its existence, you became one of the most significant think tanks in the u.s. and beyond. you have experts in all different areas of today's society, which have changed over time and will continue changing. some of you specialize in international relations and therefore you know much more than me about the reasons behind the offense behind us, therefore it would be better rather than getting thgiving the numbers and statistics regarding the

individual events to focus on the prime minister of a 10 million country in the heart of europe to consider as key areas which we must concentrate and devote our attention to. to stop thit. to stop the migration chaos, we must remember and renew an efficient and functional protection of the heart of the eu borders as well as stabilize the region and its stability. we must never forget the humanitarian dimension of the current situation and the fact of many of those that flee to europe try to escape the terror and it's our duty to help them. europe must be more decisive and more action like. we must realize that if there is no one else to do it for us. we also need to sincerity when

identifying the problems brought about by often times the poorly handled integration of the immigrants from muslim countries to the majority of the societies and sincerity is precisely as required at the beginning of each solution. the root cause of today, the migration crisis and most of all the integrated countries. citizens hope to find prospects if we intend to resolve the crisis, our primary task is to help bring about peace in such countries such as syria, iraq, and socioeconomic nations. what is the key is the direct cooperation in the region. the czech republic is a presiding country of the group formed by poland, slovakia, hungary and the czech republic

itself. and they've been proactive pushing for help and assistance to the countries impacted by the migration crisis but in europe and also in the middle east where the aid is provided to turkey, jordan and lebanon and even the assistance directly is not manageable. the czech republic is the only member states with a functioning embassy and we have values to help organize the humanitarian aid. i'm proud of the czech republic have a historic experience in europe that clearly shows that it intends to play a constructive role in the administration's security. i suppose that you would agree with me that times are difficult

as we experience to maintain our relations with our allies we share common goals and values within a therefore i believe one of the major is the deepening of the trans-atlantic cooperation in the nato. it cannot be imagined without this. the strategic partnership is in the united states and should be evened and impact other areas not only to the security and defense but also the negotiations on the agreement is one more proof of it and i hope to see a very well-balanced text that will be beneficial for both parties. nevertheless, even here it is

valid to say that we consider any regard for a partnership and something that is going to stay here in the future dramatically and i think that this might be rather shortsighted and even for the future it might prove to be on both sides of the atlantic we can hear them undermining the trans-atlantic partnership. i believe the investment indexes that are needed not only for the political capital but also by strengthening the contact we must raise the interest in what is happening on each side of the atlantic to listen to each other and realize the significance of the partnership. that is also why i came on my official visit to the united

states of america and in the course of my speech let me thank you for your invitation. it is my honor to speak with such organizations such as the brookings institute and i would like to congratulate you on your anniversary and wish you another 100 years under the famous slogan of quality from independents and impacts. thank you very much for your attention. [applause]

>> [speaking in native tongue] thank you mr. prem minister for your kind words about bookings and for your incisive analysis of the challenges facing europe and the world. one of the great lessons of the past 100 years of our history is that europe and in particular central europe do not exist in isolation and of the events that have taken place and started in your region in world war i and world war ii, the fall of communism have had a global impacts and we are seeing that now implicate the region. i would like to start a fight made with your strong words

about the czech republic assistance and pushing back on the chaos in the middle east, and i would like to focus, if i may, on daesh, isis. yesterday's information at the czech republic is going to be on the ground helping to support the iraqi military is like capacity including with the l. 159 planes. one of the issues getting them to iraq is one of the issues i was working on serving abroad. can you tell us more about that mission and help the czech republic will push back on daesh?

>> translator: a coalition of more than 16 countries have tried to fight daesh. the czech republic provided a supply of ammunition as well as weapons for the iraq he army and the weapons are to the central iraqi government and provided directly to the kurdish fighters who actually gained victories in the north. i'm very happy that the czech republic allowed or made it possible for the army to fly that jet planes that increased the capacity and trained the pilots of the army. so a few days ago the government proved the presence of the military advisory team that

would be directly deployed in iraq but the direct support for through the weapons and ammunition of training and we must be ready to cooperate in a number of other projects that increase the capacity of the state to fight against daesh. it demonstrates the facts dot there are weaknesses that need to be the further regime in iraq and in order to be able to defeat the daesh, we have to focus to provide military training as well as rejuvenate the economy and stability in the region. we need to be able to countries that disintegrated in a few months or years and it doubled

the missing governmental structure so by rebuilding the country's we would be combating them very efficiently. stomach the czech republic has continued to play a critical role in syria keeping the embassy open. it's one of the great heroes of the global ambassadorial core for hanging in there. are you personally optimistic the cease-fire is going to lead to more stability. the czech republic has eyes on the situation i will say speaking to the ambassador when i served in prod.

we are curious to hear from you the view on the prospects on the improvement. >> i think the issue isn't easy. the problem that we have ourselves is that it's been going for far too long and it's clear there's a great number of individuals that are losing hope in fleeing the country. we've been very active in the union and that we have a network of indices including the mentioned embassy in damascus and we have done great heroic

work for the european union as well. half of the inhabitants are on the run and they left syria today we are trying to provide assistance in the refugee camps as well. we see this as an important way to show solidarity and provide a partial solution to the refugee crisis by the leading aid or what is happening even in europe and a great number of places. a great number of refugees do not want to stay they want to come back. they want their children to get their education and free

education to deliver in a free country they don't want to join the army on either side they just want to have a peaceful prosperous life. it's important to respect the realities that exist and i think in terms of long-term stability it will be required to see the president leaving and it should involve a dialogue of all partners involved. i am not a big optimist as far as the speed that is concerned d however what we saw in the past few month's such as the cease-fire and with a great willingness to really maintain the cease-fire it gives us great hope and now it will require all of the parties to look for a

pragmatic and practical solution and put in place a government to gain the trust and confidence for the people in syria and. can it be cautiously optimistic? i don't think there is any other way to handle the migration crisis than to stop the war and finding a large-scale agreement. it has to have the elements or involve the elements of the political camp or the current it has to be more general as possible otherwise we wouldn't be up to stop the crisis. the people have to trust in the

new peacemaking process. on your poignant anecdote talking to the refugees it is true many of them would like to turned to a homeland that is at peace and however we characterize your description of what's needed in syria. everyone agrees that it is not close enhanced. can you share with us a little bit the attitudes of the people in the czech republic. there has been some strong resistance to welcoming refuge

refugees. can you reflect on that a little bit and explain where that is coming from and share your perspective please? >> [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: if you are in a situation whic in which the bors of europe you have a very active introduction represented today by daesh, you can't leave enough about your security and defense even if we deal with the refugees in the crisis.

so it is a management problem. so, the borders were not ready for this strong type of refugee. first off, and europeans are afraid of being able to hand their crisis. number two, in spirit that my fear of being threatened by serious attacks are inability to integrate immigrants from muslim

countries and certain european countries on translocations. it shows although the first generation of muslim refugees were integrated successfully into the labor market and society. but it usually starts with the second and third generations. the big danger of radicalization of the second north or generation of immigrant in europe and europe has to be ready to his onto it. of course we have to refute the principle guilt damnation e-mail tendency to put on a 10 to one are then labeled them all an approach to an order to be able to discard the principle, we have to do our work and we really have to be able to prosecute any goals for

violating laws and combat terrorism. there are countries such as slovakia where germany was mainly because we put more emphasis on the security and defense aspect. refugees are ready to help. but at the same time, we try to adhere to a high-security halls in order not to give chief ammunition to u.s. nationalists who actually further thought and hamper a successful solution of the problems we are facing. therefore they have to respond to the alleging fear of the european democratic politicians not able to answer and then they will create a space where populous and other extremists. >> and of course it is a problem you describe of alan seen the

parrot heads of human right and political situations as one that has bedeviled europe over the past hundred years. people are speaking before, writing about this cycle now. if we had more time, i would engage you on the president counsels striking this balance. but i want to ask you a different question. and then i'm going to turn to the audience for questions said the idea should be ready with your questions. speaking about the borders of europe, russia of vladimir putin has been responsible in crimea

and ukraine are the most significant intrusion violation of principle of borders and sovereignty in many, many decades. the czech republic has put together with the united states and with europe in sanctioning to 10 -- putin and russia. you alluded to this of course in your remarks, but can you tell us a little bit more about how the sanctions are working, while the european consensus holds and do you have a view on whether the sanctions will be successful what would the definition of success be? exiting ukraine [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: well, i think this is one of the major

questions we talk about factors of a security situation in the facility of the e.u. ukraine is one of those. of course i will come back to ukraine in detail in a short while, but i should not and i don't want to forget one important note. you mentioned some important dates and events with a history of central and eastern europe and over time they are very much intertwined. the czech republic or czechoslovakia i believe it is of paramount importance. i also mentioned in my speech. that is the significant that trans-atlantic corporation and partnership in the e.u. and the united states of america. it is important for the united states of america in spite of their own political challenges, priorities and issues, should not forget what is happening in europe it has one of the 20th

century tip place always had an impact on the global level. whatever happens in central europe and the balkans, it started a first world war. what happened in germany and central europe in 39, it started the second world war. what happened in the 60s and central europe actually enabled by fall of the communist regime later on because this is the first time the regime lost its credibility by invading prague was soviet tanks in 1989. again, another important indication and a kind of lesson for the united states to realize that it's important to pay attention to what is happening in europe. coming back to ukraine, i'm very happy the e.u. so far has been united on this issue. it is important that there's

enough coordination between united tapes of america and the e.u. and apart from the sanctions, we made functional government in place in ukraine. a number of countries provide to the ukrainian government of a political situation. ukraine is very, very stable. there are many changes, replacement of ministers and a lot of attention in parliament. what we need in ukraine is a stable government that will be a vital partner towards russia when talking about the application and implementation of the minsk agreement and also able to execute reform that will improve economic and social situation and people in ukraine and political changes happen in ukraine, the people who demonstrated, they waved the european flags.

for many ukrainians, europe is a place of higher standard of living, lower corruption than what they experienced in ukraine. that is why we thought those europeans like that. however, the question is whether the democratic elected government in ukraine is going to be able to provide a set of changes, economic, social and other to the citizens of ukraine. if they're not able to do that, russia will gain from it because they've been trying to destabilize a long time. as far as the outcome of sanctions, what is important is the sanctions aren't combined with the fulfillment of the minsk agreement. i'm very glad to see the minsk agreement has been started. if the only alternative to disk duration of the war in ukraine because it was very important to stop people from dying in eastern ukraine and we just need to see the process through. unless the minsk agreement

fulfilled in the european union should not unilaterally cancel the sanctions, however, the sanctions and fine-tuning should always correspond to the level of the agreement and i believe europe has to stay unified, should not allow activation and it's not easy for the czech republic because a great number had economic interest in russia and would export a lot and of course this company's complaint. however, europe needs to maintain a unified approach on this matter. >> the united state standing at attention to asia. you yourself have just welcomed a state visit on china and i

think the economic opportunities in asia offers somewhat of a safety valve for you, for europe as you continue to hold strong against the russian aggression. with that, i am welcoming questions. you can ask questions here live in the audience a working and you also can then make questions on twitter@norm eisen and i will try to take a mix of the two. we should have yes, greece with microphones and we will start here on the ohio with this gentleman. another microphone coming from the back. very good. >> mr. prime minister, with the recent e.u. deal with turkey, i was just wondering, do find it

likely that we'll see these of free travel into the e.u. at the june 2016 deadline? [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: well, what they are conduct in an turkey is naturally related to trying to find a solution to the migration solution. but not only limited. in the past few years, as a result of some of the events in turkey, turkey has been getting her there and further apart from europe and we are convinced that turkey really plays an important role for stabilization of the region and therefore there is a need to reinforce their communication with turkey. turkey is a member of the nato and we need to see a closer coordination of our approach.

we are not attacking here about a total piece the lever station. it involves the possibility to cancel a short-term visa, and which actually is a furry. this case. so for those who travel to europe for more than three months would not be required to ask for a visa. of course it all depends on the element of conditions by the turks. the conditions however send a signal that they would like to have it approved so that the three-man short-term visa could be canceled. one of them primary condition is for those asking for asylum without to the european and it

all relates to what i said in the beginning and we also have to make sure that we also provide maximum security. >> i'm going to take the first question now from twitter and then we will have a question over here from the side of the room. mikhail shaq asks to please elaborate on the juxtaposition towards tt. that trans-atlantic trade and investment partnership. the free trade agreement that the e.u. and the united states are now attempting to negotiate. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: based on our knees, the conclusion could be conducive to increasing economic

growth for the e.u. and the u.s. commit beneficial to the growth of our economy and the czech republic. we are convinced that the czech republic is competitive enough that it will be able to use the potential provided. it will not be an easy process. there are some obstacles and concerns both on the european side as well as on the american side that in our public we should not allow ourselves to play it down. in fact, this morning i had american investors in the czech republic mentioned that one of the most important thing between the u.s. and europe and back and forth. making sure protection of the health of the consumer protection, rights of the consumer are important for europeans. all of those things should be

included. however, there is a solution to that. the government tries to play an active role. we would like to see not only progress, the conclusion between the u.s. and the e.u. after all of the major issues have been resolved. >> okay. we have a question over here and then we will take another one from twitter. the questions are flowing non-on twitter@norm eisen. >> i'm robert novak as you know, i and others 21 years ago founded american friends of the czech republic to advocate for the czech republic admission to nato. we believe in the appliance, but right now i would like to channel donald trump. the question is, we here in america, lucky americans get three weeks of vacation and maybe 11 holidays. german scat 24 holidays, six

weeks of vacation. yet we bear the disproportionate burden for defending europe. so you mentioned strengthening the alliance. now is this going to include the european countries stepping up their defense budget and played a larger role in the defense of the western alliance? [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: it is quite strange, but until the year 2013 we have been experienced and i'll optimistic. we have actually witnessed loosening of tension. we are trying to start a partnership with russia. we looked for ways of cooperation or eastern europe partnership in various initiatives.

but then we saw crimea and we realized that europe is not sufficiently prepared for risks of a similar kind. this is the first impulse. the second impulse is that transcend good the implication of the experience for fighting al qaeda and afghanistan. but now i started facing a completely different animal. a political system, but also an editorial kind of presence. therefore i believe nato is a very important security infrastructure. it has its place in today's world and the defense of the period we are also sharing common values in nato related to democracy which are related to impetus on freedom and human

rights. but nato primarily as a defense organization, so it should here in t. i'll are members they collect their defense turned aside other members and i think there is no other way than to increase the defense budget ended member countries. the czech republic is the last on this matter. it is paradoxical because many times it is believed that when there is a government in place, then they are increasing defense budget and when the government comes in, they will start decreasing the budget. i would like to take the czech republic is a completely different way. they always significantly reduce the defense budget. but also related to the overall adverse area in europe to where the first government, must bring central government and we decided to increase the defense budget and the czech republic at

the process will continue even in the next year and we want to really assume a larger piece of responsibility for our own defense as well. i think it's absolutely important in order to keep some kind of balance of nato and understand how to share the costs on the defense which are very high if europe wants to be with nato to try to assume a larger share. all it does have to be really efficient, transparent. likely is transparent to end the idea that we could dramatically increase cost within two to three years and also keep trans. it's an illusion. they don't have an increased budget, but we goes up by staff to make sure the extent is is their costs are efficient, but also trans parent. this is also very important.

>> a follow-up question to that. on twitter, you reference the behavior the right lane government in europe over the past decade. and again a soccer riot national front in france, but not just in europe, globally and are twitter corresponding asks if you have an opinion on trump in the united states. this guide >> translator: okay these are two questions in one. let me address both here a few

days ago as a matter of coincidence i was in paris and i had a chance to make the prime minister and there is the rise of nationalist. it is safe and not let not this election related to the migration and correlated to the problem that arrive at a social problems related to immigration and friends. obviously, we can't ignore this. and for as we saw kind of cooperation in the election. the socialist kind of reduce all their candidate, the candidate of democratic race, which is a partnership and i think this model will be seeing more and more often in europe. we will be actually encountering more figure issues and sure you

can actually see that both countries have enough governing and slovakia. the left wing left wing and the right wing parties joined together to eliminate extremists who actually penetrated the slovak parliament so we can actually see. we'll see more right of mustering coalitions. that will be able to maintain a democratic principles. but from long-term as it's not good. trying to fight extremists, there will be more left and right coalitions. this kind of denies the basic principle of a pendulum which should always go from right to left to right to left from which actually make sure they always find some kind of metal way that democracy represents the ideas of other citizens. a big part qaeda against

extremists and my mind is reducing political plurality in the thread actually characterize two other popular. so obviously, they will be promoting the interest -- and this is a problem of establishment at the time when we try to combat the rise of this treaty. we in europe are following a great interest. the american primaries and the american democratic system and we suppose that will show a lot of resistance at slough. but americans are the ones to choose their own president will respect that as we shed respect the democratic elections in any other european country. >> okay, we'll come back to the questions on twitter.

though we are going to come back to the audience now and the young lady of the way in the back row, please. >> thank you for coming here and speaking, mr. prime minister. he spoke a lot about your value for european integration and cooperation in unification. i was wondering if you could speak more about european ex-ranch in, specifically as it relates to the states come in none of the worst and former u.s. law that a potential independent for catalonia. >> when my wife asks me tonight about the meeting with the prime minister, i will say we discussed donald trump and catalonia. [speaking in native tongue]

>> translator: i would like to thank you for the interesting debate and question because it is a great opportunity to formulate some of my ideas. e.u. enlargement is a very ambitious task and i don't think european union's right side and especially in view of the great number of countries negotiating with their potential joining the european union and in my speech i spoke about the facts in the 90s paris to the 90s without bloodshed in that area of the western balkans and actually in relation to the refugees of the balkan countries. and it is very important to realize they continue to stay stabilized and it is when countries such as albania, serbia become members of the european union. so you should not have the

ambition to integrate european union ultimately. as far as catalonia is concerned . well, look, if it is demonstrated and reference to the referendum deciding yes or no to stay in the u.k. and i'm firmly convinced the u.k. will stay in the e.u. and i think we are doing our best. if they decide to leave the european union, there's a referendum. then we will actually see what will give a lot of hope to nationalize. regions such as catalonia and others thinking about

independents are forms of search into an european union will be very much in the hands of the separatists. why do you think that it will fail and the u.k. will save the e.u.? why are you optimistic? [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: i spoke about what we wish for. sometimes your wishes not granted. i would wish to see the u.k. and a member of the european union. the bristol grant made the wish and when we spoke about that in the european council actually spoke -- you couldn't have chosen the referendum because all of us are dealing with problems in relation to the

refugee crisis and all of that that very much influence the opinion of the people. the other subject as well. they are the issues of security. and the breadth and sure and i'm convinced that they stay apart at the european union, this will really get you more security and also increase the strategic opinion ,-com,-com ma of course a great number of arguments that should be very much strongly reminded. it is of course up to them to weigh pros and cons and their own decision whether they stay or leave. i think i am speaking on behalf of the majority of the chechens as we mostly wish for the u.k. to stay in the eq. >> i'm not optimistic now, i want to thank the prime minister

for joining us at brookings, celebrating their 100th birth date together the past hundred years in the founding of the brookings in to shin. i have seen a lot of ups and downs in your region. if i may say so, as a child of the czech american in our region of central europe, the leadership that your remarks have exemplified are critical to spirit in europe in the transatlantic relationship through the choppy waters.

a. >> i will ask that everyone stay in their place as the prime minister exits, and has depressed exit. the prime minister of the exiting to speak with the press. so if everyone would stay just for a moment to allow that to happen. i appreciated. thank you all for being here with us. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

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[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> coming up in about one hour on c-span2 is the nuclear security summit getting underway in washington.

we will hear from california governor jerry brown and bill perry discussing new approaches to reducing the threat posed by nuclear weapons. this happens at the atlantic council washington live at noon eastern. later on c-span we are back at the atlantic council or a discussion on smart or network homes in the benefits and challenges they present. that's coming up at 4 p.m. eastern. >> this week on c-span where fishing programs on the situation of the current supreme court vacancy. we look at what today's leaders have said in the past concerning the nominating and confirmation process of individuals to the supreme court. >> in my view, confirmation hearings, no matter how long, fruitful, furl, can alone

provide a sufficient basis for determining if a nominee merits a seat on our supreme court. >> a thoughtful senator should realize that any benefits are boring and ideological appellate from the court are not likely to outweigh the damage done to the courts institutional standards. where he even goes on to ideological opposition to a nominee from one end of the political spectrum is likely to generate similar opposition to later nominations from the opposite end. >> finish on the programs featured on c-span. >> americans currently go over $1 trillion in student debt. experts from the education department, the consumer financial protection bureau in the "new york times" sit down next to discuss the crisis. this is a panel hosted by the gerald ford school of public policy of university of michigan. it's about one hour.

>> good afternoon, everybody and welcome. i'm susan collins, the dean at the gerald r. ford school and i'm delighted to see all of you with us here today. before i begin i like to think the education policy initiative and the codirectors, my colleagues are planning our event today which i know you like me have been looking forward to. i would also like to acknowledge the center for the study of higher and postsecondary education whose director is here today as well, and charles h. and susan gessner for their generous support of today's programmer we are grateful for all of those engagements. today we will address a very important question, is there a student debt crisis? many of us are well aware the

ever expanding student loan market, and the latest estimates are that nearly 40 million americans are laden with perhaps $1.3 trillion of student debt. and one in four of the borrowers decide in delinquency or in default. last year's graduating class had an average of $35,000 in student debt. those are striking numbers. the obama administration announced to substantive policy changes and presidential candidates have focused on a variety of alternatives of ways to lower the debt burden. while today's speakers are two of the leading voices on student debt reform, rohit chopra and susan dynarski. rohit chopra was recently named special adviser to the is department of education. he previously served as assistant director of the consumer financial protection bureau where he led the agency's

work on behalf of students and young consumers. the secretary of treasury named him as the agency's first student loan ombudsmen come in the role that was established by the dodd-frank wall street reform and consumer protection act. he has frequently testified before congress on alleviating students debt burdens and private student loan performance. susan dynarski is a member of the ford school of faculty and colleague pictures a professor of education public policy and economics at the university of michigan and also codirector of the policy initiative. she is one of the countries top advocates or accessible higher education. she has testified before congress on education and tax policy and is widely consulted on student aid reform, including at the federal reserve, the whitwhite house, the departmentf education at treasury and with the council of economic advisers. she writes for the "new york times," and if you're on twitter i encourage you to follow her

for a really informative and witty commentary. first, just a word about today's format. each of our panelists begin with susan will kick things off with brief opening remarks. i will then have the pleasure of moderating a conversation with our experts. bible stores a few questions of my own before opening things up to the audience. please write your questions on the note cards you should have received as you came into the room, and was a volunteer circulating to collect them from you during the program. if you're watching online please send us your questions via twitter using hashtag epi student debt. so let's get started. susan, the floor is yours. >> i'm going to start with the data. so i want to start out by talking about if there is indeed a crisis in student debt, where is it? we are at a university, school

of public policy so should be addressing this question with data as opposed to, say, introspect in, thinking about our own experiences are those of our friends or colleagues. and also instead of maybe just reading the latest dramatic piece in the news about a distress barber, but rather by analyzing the data. it has been a problem in this context which means in part and it does have filled the void. if there are not good data on a problem, the rising and anecdotes are going to fill the void. the department of education which is responsible for the loans, federal loans in this country, has not been terribly forthcoming in compiling and releasing to the public information about who borrows, defaults, their experiences. that's changing a bit, and as of this past fall with actual have

excellent data on debt default, for people who borrows basically since the late 90s right up until the present. what i'm going to say it is based on the analysis of those data. so what do those data say? first of all they say you should eraser line, thinking who the face of the student debt crisis is, you should erase from your mind the image of a yale graduate or an nyu graduate or equivalent the graduate or even a u.s. graduate. in fact, anyone who graduates with a ba is relatively unlikely to default. so folks who graduates have quite low default rates. the default rate also drops with school selectivity. the more selective a school is, the lower the rate of default. for schools like u.n. and harvard and columbia, about 5% is what the default rate is. so that's what it was before the

recession. that's what it was during the recession. folks who graduate from elite schools are pretty well buffered from economic distress. not everybody, but we're talking averages and tendencies. so who should you, you should also think of folks who are going to graduate school. the people who graduate, the people of graduate, i know you don't like a debt but the question is whether it's the face of the crisis in the country. nobody likes debt. everybody would rather have stuff free and pay for it. that's an economic principle. you've got your certificate out and economics. so grad students borrow the most other also the least likely to default. because they make good money compared to other folks. graduates, people who borrow for graduate school are unlikely to default. graduates of slick schools like

um mike barr around $30,000 total, typical debt for people graduate but they tend to make good money so they can support a debt of $30,000 take it all. so that's who it is not. one thing to note that i just listed the profiles of the people who are focused on the media. when the media focuses on student debt crises, the people that profile our folks at columbia and nyu and people with graduate degrees. so this week in slate a graduate of connecticut college was a degree from an as experience with $200,000 in debt. so that's an unlikely amount of debt. very few people have that much debt. there is also a lovely article

in the "new york times" that enraged me injuring several upshot posts from a guy who graduate with not one, not two but three degrees from columbia university and subsequent default on all of them and was urging others to follow his example, and said his up a sort of a leader of a student loan revolt. these are not the victims of a student loan crisis. who is? the face of student loan distress is a dropout from a non-selective college. a person who spent a year or two added for profit college, proprietary school like corinthian come university of phoenix or come into college or a non-selective four-year college. is all based on the today. you look at it was defaulting, that's who it is. they are first generation college students. they grew up poor, they entered college late in the 2030s to improve their job market skills. many of them are running away from the weak job market of the

recession and the which one of these schools to try to tool up so they could get a better job. they borrowed a relatively low because they spent relatively little tight in school. they dropped out after a year or even six but. so borrowed by the white house to $10,000 a year. -- 5000 to $10,000 a year. they acted with lower earnings, $20,000 a year. they entered poor, they left for. is a typical loan in default is less than $10,000. more around $5000 is the typical of in default right now. 44% in default are coming from profile but -- for profit or nearly a third of students who entered college in the recession borrowed to attend a committee cause or for-profit college defaulted within five years. as i said for the people attending a selected bea institution its 5%.

so the problems are at the community colleges and that the for-profit institutions. so this is who i have firm in mind when think about victims of a student debt crisis. low income, first generation of students attending come into college for an for-profit college. students of corinthian college who were defrauded into borrowing from what was a nonexistent education. a person laid off from their job who tries to take up some skills at the local community college and borrow to do so and is exiting with very low earnings. in my opinion if there is a crisis of any sort it's a crisis of low earnings in our country, that we have, we lack safety nets. we have a very large number of people who are earning very low earnings and who cannot handle even $5000 in debt as a result. >> so first of thanks for having

me and thanks to all of you for being here. as the dean mentioned i recently joined the department of education and just a few days into the job. we will caveat that, my comments represent my own opinions. the way i often get the question, rohit, why do we have student loans? i always answer it's important remember we have student loans for a very good reason. and that is to ensure that people who might not be able to afford to go to college can make that investment into themselves, which can pay off very, very big when done right. but things have changed so much in the past 10 years that it's helpful to think through the. many people who are concerned about student debt, many of you probably in this room, might come from the education world. i probably come from the other step child of this world, which

is thinking about it from a consumer financial markets perspective. and those of us in, from our lands, were really colored and shaped by the foreclosure crisis that we saw in the past several years. for those of you who are from michigan you probably know very well that problems in the mortgage market absolutely devastated parts of michigan, and this was not unlike other parts of the country. today we have a mortgage market that is very, very different but i think last discuss with some events that really changed the student loan market, too. i think it's worth mentioning some of them. so one again to the financial crisis, there is no question that the financial crisis had to wield big ethics. one effect is that it really eroded family will actually

trillions of dollars of household wealth thing ever in the form of home-equity come in the form of retirement savings. so many families felt more stressed about being able to contribute to their child's education at the same time the financial crisis hit state budgets very hard. and there was very substantial cuts to public higher education to i want to echo something that susan said. when you thi about who goes to college you really want to remember that the biggest group is actually those who attend public colleges. so the mix of families dealing more financially stressed, and higher tuition which, by the way, is not just something that the recent. i understand that 40 years ago, undergraduate tuition at the university of michigan was $800.

now inflation adjusted that's probably about four or five times higher, but the tuition for undergraduates is well more than four or five times higher than $800. i think it really pronounced, the crisis would pronounced the effect that i think we've seen substantial increases in reliance on student loans. the secretary of education has noted that student loans became kind of the norm at a certain point. so what else happened i think it's important context, and i think that we forget there was a lot of talk about the rescue of the financial system due to gambling on wall street. but there was also a huge change in our federal student loan system, which was a law that essentially led to the government for sharing --

purchasing a huge amount of federal student loans. most before 20 originated by financial institutions stand with the government guarantee. and now those loans, much of them are owned by the government. and in 2010 the president got a law passed to essentially end this bank subsidy program. and i went to borrow student loan's it's all directly through the department of education. so all of us put together of more barbers, more students relying on pell grants, on student loans combined with the government taking these unprecedented action really has in some ways created a lot of opportunities that the policymakers and the research community are thinking about all the different tools that can really be used to make improvements to the system. and i think that we are at a place that we need to keep

helping people go to college but we need to remember that the macro environment, as well as some poor performing programs, are leading to people, many people being in very high levels of distress. and i can't tell you enough that, what i would push you to remember is when somebody is delinquent on their student loans, it is often just one side of a broader array of shots that are happening in their life. fighting to keep paying rent, struggling to make payments on their car loans, and thinking through that as a whole consumer about the trauma that they're managing something that we always have to keep top of my. that being said, there's a lot of policies being pursued to not only address the borrowers who are struggling but also to

inoculate the broader structural issue of college being hard to avoid. and just a few that i will mention. there is now no repayment plan, pay as you earn. this is a broad expansion, affordable loan modification repayment plans to all borrowers to pay a reasonable amount of income to manage those types of distress. my understand is that there's about 5000 people enrolling in that per day on average. we have to forget how we can keep him in there to manage do that. there are also new ways for borrowers to get out of default of their federal loans. new rules that have been put in place allow borrowers to get back on their feet through loan rehabilitation, and we need to make sure that borrowers are not hiding, and that they know the our options for them. and, of course, there's been a lot of interest and activity on

enhancements to student loan servicing. student loan servicers are the companies that helped collect payments and manage your loans. there's a lot of work to do to make the process work better. there's been, the president enacted a student aid bill of rights that called for a number of potential improvements to student loan servicing, and that might be an important way and there'there is good work being o help borrowers to navigate through the process. and then going forward we have to think about how to inoculate future generations to be able to afford college and not be deterred by loans and the high sticker price is. i just a few of them, ending some of those bank subsidies for the old federal loan program created money to invest in the pell grant program. a lot of people are taking a

look at the role of a creditor and state oversight agencies. as mentioned, the collapse of corinthian colleges has raised a lot of questions about the role of how we do oversight. and many of you might of heard of the administration gainful employment initiatives, which essentially is a regulatory framework to prevent schools on graduating or even not graduating students with unaffordable levels of debt. there's broader conversations all over society inside and outside of washington about making community college free or more affordable. and i think i would encourage all of you as you think about this issue that there is not one initiative that is going to be a cure-all. it is a series of tools to fight

a discrete set of problems you're focusing on just college affordability will really fix issues for people struggling today. and the reverse -- will not. the reverse is true as well. a lot of hard problems to tackle but big solutions are needed. >> thank you very much for helping to frame this a very complex and nuanced set of issues. that are of vital importance, and i say that both from my perspective as a dean of the policy school and also from my perspective as a parent of two college students. and so there are many, many issues on the table. i asked a couple of questions first to start things off, but i encourage you to use the notecards for us to open things up to the audience participation. perhaps the place to start is to

ask them to get more of a sense of just how worried should we be about this crisis anyway. rohit, you talked about the mortgage loan crisis at the beginning of your remarks, and certainly some have suggested that what's happening with student loans is a bubble that could be as concerned as the mortgage crisis was, as we all well know. how worried should we be about what's happening in student loans and with student debt? >> again, coming from the view of someone who is more of a financial services practitioner, i have a very stringent definition in my mind of what i debt crisis is. a debt crisis like we saw in the mortgage market or as we see in parts of continental europe or puerto rico is a very different animal. it is one where there is an

immediate precipice upon whether will be some systemic change that will cause mass devastation very, very quickly. and the term bobble also connotes an economic term -- bubble -- that something will pop into very quick and dramatic. i do not think what we are seeing in student loan this one that's going to create rapid systemic risk, because there is really not close interconnectedness with big financial institutions that could reverberate through the economy. now, that being said, those are technical terms but there are many people in our country that it is a personal crisis for them that they cannot manage this debt. i will say i totally respect what sue has shared with the data, but i wonder are some of the borrowers who don't borrow very much but are in default, are they actually in debt on a

lot of other instruments? did they finance their education in other ways that may not show up in the student loan data? so how i would answer that is maybe it's not a doomsday that we thought with the collapse of some of the large financial its editions with the subprime mortgages, but on a personal level i think we have to ask ourselves how can somebody who default on a student loan really recover and become someone who can participate in the economy and not be discouraged and, frankly, not to feel like a failure? we've got to do a lot, i do want to debate over the word, what the status is i think we can all agree there's so much we can improve for individual borrowers, and we need to know more about what the potential impacts are on the rest of the economy. there may not be some immediate

but there's more to learn there. >> i think, i agree with everything rohit just said. a bubble emerges when an asset come for example, can get flipped over and over again at its price gets inflated. think of a tulip in holland, the tulip crisis. think of a house that continues to get flipped and the price in place because people have expectations. you can't flip human capital. you can't sell your human capital, so you can't get the same sort of crazy inflationary. we do have is a lot of suffering. i just want to make some concrete observations about what it means with seven the people, 8 million people in default. what does that mean for individualized? so somebody who's in default has an enormous block on their credit record. what does that mean? many landlords now do credit checks before somebody can read.

so they're shut out of part of the housing market. if they want to buy a car to get to work because they're living in a neighborhood that's not what the jobs are, they need to drive to work, they are shut out of getting a reasonably priced low for the car and get to go get and 18-25% interest rate loan which further process on their finances. many employers now check credit record. so they're going to miss out on job opportunities. and then, of course, add to that a psychological stress of somebody calling your cell phone or your home phone, call your relatives on a daily basis to harass you about your debt. there's a lot of suffering and that's bad. i think of that is what the crisis is. we have people who went to school to improve themselves at all encouraged to come especially during the recession, we provided a lot of subsidies, told people the right thing to do, job market is weak, the improve yourself in school. as a result of their suffering

and it is a man-made crisis. that's what i think of as the student debt crisis. >> in terms of the magnitude, the mortgage crisis at the peak, the lending was the magnitude of the debt was close to two-thirds of u.s. gdp. that magnitude is not at that level, is that correct? >> there's approximately come on -- about 14 in the low teens of trillions of outstanding mortgage debt. what i also share is that in the subprime mortgage lending context, there was a set of whiskey features as part of those loans that led to some potential cataclysmic event. and a lot of in finance counterparty transaction, derivatives and other sorts of instruments high to that.

there was, in fact, a subprime private student loan market that really brought something different subprime mortgage lending, generally speaking no most of the land that is occurring is in the federal loan market where fortunately people have access to these income driven repayment plans. i think that understanding of the mortgage market unraveled is important but there are also important differences. and i think one of the important lessons is looking at servicing, you know, how in the old role of the cfpb we regulated both mortgage services and student loan services, and does quite struck particularly with a private student loan servicers at the same types of deficiencies. servicing is a tough business, but when it goes wrong for a borrower it can really be quite devastating.

it can lead to some suffering. i really encourage that there's a lot of interest in doing more to improve that piece of the puzzle. >> so it sounds like both of you agree that this is not in the realm of mortgage crisis in that sense. however, perhaps in addition to concerns about the impact on individuals, there are broader economic impacts in terms of economic growth. certainly some of the things that you were suggesting, each of you, pointed to at least the possibility that there might be more aggregate consequences that we should be concerned about. i wonder if you'd each comment on that before we shifted gears to a different dimension? >> so on that front there's one fact i didn't explicitly put out there, which is that the people who of the largest loans are the least likely to default on their loans.

so it's a straight line relationship with the smallest loans are the ones that are most likely to default. the narrative tends to be low and that is going up. 1 trillion, 1.2, 1.3 trillion. defaults are going up again must be that one leads to the other. it must be that people are borrowing more, because their borrowing more there are more likely to default. after the fact that that's most likely default our $5000. so these are not the numbers we think of when we say okay, people now can't get married or they can't buy homes because of this debt. it's not, people have the most debt of the people are currently the winners in our society people graduate with a b.a. computer graduate with masters degrees, they are the people come the only people attorneys have been growing pretty steadily for the past decades, earnings of other folks have been dropping. or flat.

so it is a set of people, these low-skilled compote income folks with fairly small debts who are suffering. but as you alluded to that other debts as well. we have a set, a very large group of people who have terrible employment prospects. we don't have a sufficient safety net. they are a problem. their problems on the important ones. a student debt may have been a needle that broke the camels back. it's not the burden that is causing the main problems. >> though i think susan dynarski's analysis is right on who's actually hitting the default. but i think there are reasonable people who have asked questions, the extent to which people are graduating with high levels of debt, even if they're not defaulting. many of those graduates may actually be located in metro

areas for cost of living, rents have gone up quite a bit. i think a query as to whether or are they paying higher student loan payments, higher in red, maybe actually not expecting huge amount of wage growth and does the interaction which we don't know too much about, is, does that have an impact on the ability to hit some of the other milestones? some of the survey data of public opinions suggest having a lot of student debt might change what people think about saving for a down payment, buying a home. we don't really know the specifics of it and i think as you have mentioned so many times, having better data about, about student debt i think will help us really understand the publisher but i agree i think mostly about the people who have defaulted. kind of like a think about the people not too far from there

where there was very high levels of foreclosures. people need to recognize that yes, christ an economic term, maybe it's not there. but what's happening come what happened to people in there for close when it lost their homes and what happens to people when they default is, you know, it's a personal tragedy. >> follow up a bit on that. every dollar zone is put into student loan is a dollar they can put into something else. so they can't use it to save or, so in the sense that allows to add up in some way. the new york fed, among others, have been sort of developing, putting on the narrative that really sort of push the idea i thought that loans were reducing homeownership rates, for

example. and from this new data that we've got it really looks like what's been going on is that more and more poor people are taking out loans and, therefore, you see among those people who have loaned the homeownership rate is going to enter this is a compositional effect. people who never could afford homes are not appearing in the wrecks that student loan borrowers. the people to always use to borrow, who the elite schools, their rates have not change. it's a shift in the composition of the borrowers that now includes a lot of poor people as opposed to a causal impact of the student loans on people so many. again, these data have given us a much clearer picture about what's going on. i'm going to throw out a qution. we've got a good snapshot now of what happens like late 1992 the president of how we're going to make sure we keep seeing this information as time goes on and

that this come the door when how will we know if we don't have any data? >> part of the thing many of my colleagues and i are thinking about is how chilly can we be more transparent, the release of information speak with which we do with mortgages very well. >> and, frankly, the college scorecard which refer to which includes, i encourage anybody who's interested in education student loan policy to look at the college scorecard because it gives you a much more detailed view not only about that but also about earnings. naturally the two sides of the equation that can really help us think about what's the next level of analysis beyond not only do i go to college but where do i go and where will that pay off? i think you are right though that there is an increasing need to make data available.

and that scorecard was a big piece of that and i think we will do more. >> so i am always happy to contribute to a plug for the importance of data. but in addition as you are both alluding come to boards of helping people understand what the data are telling them so that they can influence their own decisions in those ways. so a number of your comments have really highlighted the interactions among dimensions of people's lives. the interactions among the different groups who are participating in the low markets is part of the complexity. so in addition to student borrowers and a very slender stock was also have the colleges and universities. some have said, and i believe it is actually researched including by the fed that finds that as

availability of student aid, student loans went up, that colleges simply raise their prices. and so that may be a kind of challenging dimension and i would like to hear from each of you your views about whether that simply is helping things unfold, the support for the student aid went up, but universities simply raise their prices. so that doesn't help us address the challenge. >> i'm not all too familiar with the literature on it but my understand is that there is some disagreement and makes to you about whether the impact of additional aid and loans on the price of college. i will say though that it's important to remember that the published tuition and fees that is out there is not actually what a substantial portion of

low income people pay. and i think with more aid, a net price for several years now has actually stabilized amongst many sectors of higher education. so i don't know the answer to get but is obviously one that you want to know that affect. but i want to make sure it's clear that, what's really the answer we have to kill the programs so that the the policy goals, the policy goal is for people to go to college and events ahead. but i think it goes into the question of the importance of research and analysis is just increasing every single day because frankly sometimes when you release more information, new questions arise. >> so my read of the evidence on this, the best evidence at this point is that for-profit

colleges indeed raise the prices when grant aid and loans go up. so they don't give their own aid to people. they are sticker price is the net price. they are not giving scholarships to people and the prices to go up when aid gets more generous. 80% of students attend public institutions. at those institutions what drives price ask how much money the state to giving the state to giving to them. if you look at how much public institutions are spending per student it's been pretty flat but what's change is less money coming from the states and more from student. looks like costs are going up but really it's who pays for it is now the students rather than the state taxpayers. there is some evidence that schools that provide their own scholarships, when the pogrom goes up, will scale back on your scholarships and shift them to of the people who are eligible for the scholarships. the main action appears to be into for-profits.

>> thank you. let me shift just love it. i think each of you in your remarks talked about some of it either proposals or policy options that have been implemented to try to address some aspects of the student loan crisis. in particular, you've mentioned the income driven repayment plans and those of course allow borrowers to repay in installments and often over longer time period. there have been proposals and i think susan, you have been want to propose this, the man's repayment plan through payroll withholding. and i'd like to ask each of you, how much of the problem to those kinds of policies really fix? >> i personally think that in a world where borrowers can pay as a percentage of their income, it's not a cure-all to college

affordability and student debt that it's an important weapon that a borrower can use to fight delinquency and default. and avoid it by giving them affordable payment. i think that's a pretty good weapons and want to make sure that for anybody who you think is troubling, they should know about that, and it's important able to easily enroll and we enroll each and every day. there have been some, the president has directed agencies to look into multi-year certification of income driven repayment plans but i would say for the purpose of tackling the lynnwood city it is pretty powerful. i urge people to figure out, are they learning about it and give it is about -- telling them

about it and if they are not, like we needed about that so we can fix that. >> i was a 7 million people and default, the ranks continue to grow, indicates the system of income contingents is not working. none of those people should be defaulting. if they are very low income, $18,000 a year, for example, if they were in pay as you earn, that basically would not be paying at all. a lot of this comes back to like where the rubber hits the road. oddly intimate these programs. service in sussex such a boring topic of loan servicing, boring but the fact is the county actually interact with the borrowers. how do you contact them, how do you work with them to get them into a program that works for them? same issue with the mortgages. there's a big push from the fed,

for the mortgage companies to restructure loans to restructure the mortgages of people would have more reasonable payment plans, and where fell apart was the implication, getting the services to do it. that's happening right now as well. frankly, i think the big problem is that department of education owns this enormous portfolio of loans. is one of the biggest banks in the country. but it's a service organization to it's not a financial organization. it's giving the distance and getting people to college and that's what should be day. it should not be in the business of servicing a trillion dollar portfolio of those. who in the government collects money from taxpayers, treasury. it knows how to do that. i don't think ed do that. i kind of think this should be moved out of the department of education and summer else in the