>> yes. right now people can receive full disability benefits and unemployment benefits at the same time. there is some ability -- if somebody is on disability they can get permission to work because we want them to be back to work. if they take a job and are eventually laid off from that position they can collect both benefits and we don't think this as a prudent use of the federal government benefits to get full disability and unemployment benefits at the same time. cbo estimated we can save 1.3 billion ever a period of time if the changes are made. >> the chair recognizes the gentlemen from pennsylvania mr. cartwright for five minutes. >> i thank chairman meadows, and thank chairman chaffetz for calling this important hearing. mr. tillotson, one of the issues

goa included in this year's duplication report is dod's storage of occupational and environmental surveillance data. am i correct in that? >> yes, that is correct >> can you explain what the term means occupational and surveillance data? >> certainly. as the department conducts its industrial activities there is a requirement with law and osha standards that we collect information on any conditions that may eventually cause us to have to go back and look at impacts on the worse force or work environment. >> this has an impact on active duty service men, women and veterans. am i correct? >> that is correct. >> dod uses this information to tract biological, chemical and physical health hazards to our service men and women? >> that is correct. >> what benefit does dod get from collecting that type of

information? >> two benefits come out of it. we collect it first of all and if we link environmental issues with impacts on active duty or service members or civilian workers it allows us to take corrective action to allow the condition does want continue and allow ourselves to provide appropriate compensation. i think the department is moving aggressively in the totality of the community to look at how to better manage the medical information across the active duty and civilian force. >> i think you touched on it. the department of veteran's affairs makes use of this environmental and health information to establish disability for veterans. correct? >> that is correct. >> it is critical this information is usable and accurate and to protect service

members and veterans; right? >> yes, sir. >> mr. dodaro, thank you for being here as well and all of your good work. according to goa it is not clear that the quality of the data that is being collected is reliable. in a report issued in may of 2015, goa said and i quote some of the military services have developed their own guidance resulting in inconsistent approaches of level of effort reducing dod's ability to be confidant the data are sufficiently reliable. have i read that correctly? >> that is correct. >> does it concern you dod does not know if the data it is collecting is accurate? >> yes, it does. >> mr. tillotson, goa represented in the 2015 report that dod established clear policies and procedures for performing quality assurance reviews of the data collected. dod responded to goa it would need additional resources to

clarify its policies. is dod taking any actions to improve the quality of the data it is collecting? >> we are doing that. new policies are in draft to be issued this year. we made the resources available to do this because we, like you, felt it was important undertaking to put in place. we have tied that into our broader issues of increasing standardization of medical practices across the department. the establishment of the defense health agency, the establishment of the defense health program appropriati appropriation, have been value-added activities and this congress has acted on that. >> thank you for that. separate from quality is how the information is processed and if that is being done efficiently. according to the report thshgs

data is stored in two databases. did goa identify problems with two separate systems? >> i will ask the head of the health care team to respond. >> yes, sir, we did. as you mentioned there was two cys cyssyste systems where the data is stored and we found problems with reentry of the data but we could not get a reading from all of the issues. >> mr. tillotson, why is dod using two separate systems? >> this is part of the corrective action we have underway. prior to the establishment of the defense health care program and more integration across the department medical practs were run in the military departments. >> it has been more than ten years since goa highlighted the issues with problems of the management of occupational

health data. mr. tillotson, why is it taking so long to fix the problems? >> i cannot give you a satisfactory answer but i can say we are working on it. >> we owe our service members, active duty men and women, and our veterans to correct the information accurately and fix these problems. i urge you to give it your every attention. >> thank you we will. >> the chair recognizes the gentlemen from florida, mr. micha for five minutes. >> some of the waste at the federal government is identified annually by goa and appreciate what you have done mr. dodaro of bringing this to our attention. a couple areas. first, some of dod's -- you probably have one of the biggest hawks in congress.

i voted for the ommi bus because we cut cut cut dod. i sit in the hearings and i am the senior personal on the national foreign subcommittee in the panel and i see more and more waste. i see another report, mr. dodaro, that dod -- in fact the inventory of properties and assets is almost non-existent. is that correct? >> we have been very concerned about the lack of information. >> they don't have good inventory of their properties and assets and this report highlights it again. that is a concern. we have billions of dollars worth of assets both domestically and internationally. we cannot even account for it. so again, i think this is troubling. the or thing, too -- other -- is

i work with some of the folks in the dod authorization committee. we did substantial acquisition reform. you talk about procurement and acquisition being part of the problem. they are outdated, bureaucratic and there is read tape and you don't get the best buy for the taxpayers. >> that is a problem but what is a problem is if you don't know what you have. >> acquiring new assets is just as bad. one of the things that concerns me is we pass these reforms. i know it takes a while to implement. i have one of the biggest acquisitions in the army down in my district. i say to the folks we pass this stuff last year. first, there is no secretary of

army in place, there is no chief of staff, there is no one over the programs, you have these vacancy which is part of the problem. i ask have you implemented the reforms. no no no. maybe mr. tillotson you could tell us what is happening here. >> certainly. let me address all of through your issues. on the inventory. i agree with mr. dodaro. it is not as it should be. it is part of the broader audit part and the folks meeting this afternoon to talk about the progress that include inventory. it is an area -- >> inventory we cannot audit. >> right. we agree. on the issue of acquisition reform, mr. kindle has movaled

moved out with the new guidance to put the new procedures in place. i would respond to mr. dodaro's remarks about strategic portfolio management. we agree. and the deputy security of defense over the last three years led a strategic portfolio review on an annual bases. not only are they done within the military departments but comes to a departmental level where the vice chairman, secretary of defense, and the heads of the security it do a review in plans and week rationalize investments going forward. >> we have a bill dealing with property disposal and management. how many people in the audience own property? would you have the federal government manage that property?

hell no. you would be nuts. the biggest one is dod. you cannot get anyone to make a decision to dispose of property. we have 177,000 acres sitting there and 16,000 next is the airport. i am trying to get 400 acres of surplus property to transfer to do a commercial cargo center next to our port in canaveral. 5,000 jobs it would create. and i have been working on it for four years. you have to get the permits to the military people as well. i am on my third commander. they change them every two years. we need them for three years at least, maybe four. some stability and dealing with incompetent in the past. i get someone competent and then they are gone. how can you manage anything with

the turnover? it drives me batty. just one thing for the members. did you see what the private sector did this last week in landing the booster rocket on the barge? you have to look at that and see what the private sector can do when we unleash them. god forbid we should give them a lease on doing things with private property and moving projec projepr projects. thank you. >> i thank the gentlemen from florida. i know excess property has been a priority for the gentlemen from florida for a long time. >> the bill we are passing doesn't apply to dod. the one everyone has been working on. >> the chair recognizes the gentlelady from illinois. >> thank you. welcome to the witnesses.

dr. conaway, last year the united states spent over a trillion on medicare and health related expenditures. i think we can agree there are opportunities to increase efficiency and reduce waste in spending. i am the chair of the congressional black caucus brain trust. this is something i am interested in and meet with a lot of people concerned about the future of medicare and medicaid. i want to start by clarifying what is covered by the term improper payments. it covers overpayments and underpayments. is that correct? >> that is correct. improper and over payment and under payment. >> and improper payments can be made to fraudulent claims but also mistakes? >> the majority are due to documentation or errors in the submission of the claim that was

on further review a legit medical service. >> one area goa identified for duplication has been health care coverage for people hovering along the poverty line and moving between medicaid and the coverage provided by the affordable care act exchanges. in the report today, hhs conquered with goa's recommend recommendations and highlighted the actions the department has taken to determine medicare eligibility when they do the exchanges. what steps has cms taken to make sure recipients of medicaid or federal subsidies are not receiving duplication in coverage? >> let me describe some of the steps we have taken. the account transfer process. we have accounts transferred from the marketplace and medicaid working with the states and private plans on a daily bases.

we review account transfers on a weekly bases. in terms of duplication in coverage by medicaid and marketplace and the most common reason for this to give a tangible example is someone may have coverage, lose their job and qualify for medicaid. we do data matching and are working with the states doing periodical periodically data matching and continue to work through the access of issues testing systems at the federal and state level, through data matching and using data, we are reducing any people that may have coverage in both the marketplace and medicaid at the same time. >> another area was how cms verified the eligibility of medicare providers and suppliers and found without stronger

controls and better verification cms may be making payments to providers without addresses or who have an expired license or have actually died in some cases. one recommendation was to upgrade the software. >> thank you for that question. we agree the recommendation and are updating the software. we are doing four major actions on this area. one, the software updates for address verification and other verification modalities. two, increase visits so we are visiting sights an increased frequency, three more continuous monitoring of data and checking with postal data and other services in terms of enrollment. we are upgrading systems and using data to address the program integritty iss issues

>> do you have enough people in the right places to carry this out? >> thank you. i have managed the private sector and federal government and it is incredibly challenging. we have in total approximately 6,000 cms employees trying to manage a program of huge scope and complexity. i think whether it is program integrity or marketplace medicaid we have have a staff, and i appreciate comments earlier, is mission driven. when you look at employee viewpoint surveys that comes across. the other feeling is they don't have the resources, training and ability to improve the system as much as they would want. >> and just quickly, mr. dodaro,

any comments about what you heard or anything you want to add? >> no, i am very pleased cms has taken action on a number of recommendations in these areas. there are still outstanding recommendations particularly as it relates to medicaid. i am very concerned we have not had a good oversight over the manage care portion of medicaid at the state level. cms is in the process of instituting a process that will provide more audits of what is going on in the manage care portion of medicaid at that level. i am concerned we have a disagreement about the definition of budget neutrality for demonstration projects. the ones we have looked at we don't believe with budget neutral and it is costing the government tens of billions in additional money.

they made the criteria more transparent but we don't agree with the implementation of criteria we have seen. there were many recommendations we made congress could do to streamline spending in the medicaid program. we have ongoing dialogue with cms and continue to keep up with that and press our outstanding recommendations. >> the chair recognizes the gentlemen from michigan, mr. walberg for five minutes >> thank you, mr. chairman and thank you for the panel for being here and mr. dodaro, thank you for the heavy lifting and pinpointing you continue to do. one man's opinion an over large federal government but nonetheless. one area i am interested in is the unobligated balances that

are out there. some are staggering in nature at least in my opinion. is there any value to allowing agencies to hold access appropriati appropriations for the next fiscal year and i would add quickly at what point does it become a problem. >> i think agencies need, and it depends on the program and activity, so is variable but they need have a little potential buffer depending on the nature of the program. the ones we looked at had set criteria for what they thought they needed and were well above such and that is why we called it ecs"ecstatic nation: confide, crisis, and compromise, 1848-1877" ec -- excess. they should be de-obligated or

resended by a congressman. >> let's good -- get a specific one. one area i was dealing with the district. the council and border security programs. it was $440 million over its target for un-obligated balances in fiscal year 2014. how did that account end up half a billion almost over target? >> as mr. dodaro mentioned, very often these types of programs over at state department or department of energy will have spending obligations that will cross fiscal years. they have had targeted put in place, and the amount of money they need each year to handle that flexibility or understand their spending crosses years. when it is way out of whack as

it was here they need to be able to roll that back or need have greater transparency and understanding as to what money they need, how they will spend it, and be tougher on reporting where they are on that. >> i guess my concern would be if that be the case, they said at 25%, why not next year the same instead of 40%? that doesn't get in touch with trying to live within one's means and truthfully set the standards. >> they could move it each year saying going from 25% to 40% or down beyond that. these are goals they set for themselves. they are based on historically what they think they need to carry over from year to year. they have to justify it and not

at the level there should be. that is the whole point on this. >> there are things we do every year and we scrub accounts and provide information to the appropriations committee. they will not approve additional money in some cases if there is a large carryover balance. >> i see it right around 40% is

where they ended up overtarget. is there any accountability thus far? >> there is typically accountability at an individual level or institutional level but we are talking about management processes that get a better transparency and better management at the time so you don't -- there would be flucuations but what we want to see is if you set your own targets we want you close and if not we need good explanations why this year was an anomaly. >> another problem is in the area of broadband. they explained they had that level of balance develop as broad activity feeds and only broad activities. they didn't have enough -- did they have that problem and -- >> what we found was when we look at all agencies across

government and state there is no difference and there are weaknesses in place and opportunities for agencies to tighten up their anti-fraud activities. we think within the parameters of the 25% is something that state or any other rates will be able to improve internal controls. >> i thank the gentlemen from michigan. the chair recognizes the gentlemen from ohio. >> thank you. you state the irs has made steady progress to the vast majority of budget changes. however in 2013, the treasury and sectary in the wage investment division of the irs referral process --

>> we have people looking at referral programs. >> we will limit the number of organizations that have referrals. in other words, we intend to bring the referral process down to one activity. we will have an opportunity for taxpayers to make referals. we are looking at recommendations and hope the tax administration helps. and i believe we will be

response -- responsive to the issues that have been raised. >> there is a promise of the irs being behind the eight ball on that one. can you explain why the irs is not furthering sharing information? >> lots of the programs change over time. so there is a constant evalua evaluation and ongoing exercise we have not seen. in this particular instance, we have a series of referral programs and each individual is offering a division over a period of time. we are very much focusing on attention and because of that we are taking action.

>> so we can expect results shortly? >> absolutely. mr. dodaro, as you know, fraud is rampant throughout the organization with regard to unemployment benefits why doesn't have irs use data to verify self-reported earnings? >> i am not sure. >> what does the doa need to do the make sure unemployment is filled correctly? >> we will have to get back to you. >> this is critical.

>> we will like to have models to follow. i think they need some parenting. let me bring up another one. i believe in a fair wage for a fair job. but we see a huge change in the number of businesses. >> we haven't looked at the issue in a while. i would have to go back and take

a look. we did a long time ago but it has been a number of years since we would have the resources to look at it. >> as long as it is a transparent schedule, which has been the major complaint for the smaller business, along the lines of my district and in my state i had a lot of cub subcon stra tractors put out of business working with the department of defense. we will take a look at that. >> i understand your concern. >> i appreciate it. >> the chair recognizes mr. walker. >> thank you, gentlemen. thank you others for being here today. i have a couple questions starting with mr. dodaro.

why is the referral process being conducted through the mail? isn't this an archiac process. >> yes, it is. >> one referral office had 87,000 one year. they annually reading them and then when referred to another part of the irs they manually look at it again. i am pleased they are going for the online electronic process but this is outdated. can you talk about the plans to put it online? more specification about what it looks like? >> we are in the planning stages so we cannot give you more about what it is going to look like. we have to engineer the process.

but it is clear our processes have been working for the taxpayers and it is sparking major changes. >> i feel that. >> mr. dodaro, greater coordination between the referral program can save the american taxpayer and the irs. can you talk about that? >> first of all, i think it will increase the time.

this makes the ability for them to move more quickly.

>> they grow over time on a singular bases. one has a referral program and another one does. they were viewed as referral programs rather than an integrated set of initiatives underway. similar to the local governments having a 311 number so you don't know what the problem is. that is what needs to happen with this program.

>> the irs needs to evaluate if the program is going to be successful and meet the needs of the people providing the information. the communication here is really important. the other thing we point out is there are monetary awards and so far the irs is only interested by 31 specific monetary awards. they have to look at whether or not they are providing enough incentives for people in communication and rewards. >> thank you, gentlemen.

the chair recognizes the gentlemen from oklahoma mr. grisham for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you for all of your witnesses that are here today. we do appreciate what you do. this loan program is essentially performing the same function as four other programs. it was setup as a result of the 2010 reauthorization act. congress was directed to avoid duplication. given the existing programs was it inevitable they would overlap with existing programs or more

commerce could have done to allow the programs? >> we think there is more that could be done. we made a recommendation for congress to work with the national institute of standard and technology. i think congress is trying to deal with a niche. it is going to be difficult to find what the niche is going to be and to avoid duplication. i think congress is frustrated with the lack of time limits in meeting these needs. so we recommended commerce work with them to identify with what the capitol -- capital needs. we are going to stay on this. we have a regular requirement to review it. >> as a report also shows the

programs are copying the forms and application process used by the small business administration for its own loan program. how does this contribute to duplication on the issuance of loans? >> it will duplicate it inmy opinion. >> the goa recommended in the report the commerce department create targeted market materials and coordination with the standards and technology so they offer access to people who haven't access to federal loan guarantees. would you recommend the loan guarantee program be consolidated or would one of the

other agencies with the pre-existing program? if not, why not? >> i think it is a possibility that has to be identified once commerce does their historic homework and there is a proper plan. i think someone might ought to reassess. my understanding is commerce talked to other federal departments and agencies about carrying out the program and there have been no takers in that regard. i will be very interested to see what commerce does with that recommendation. once it has the marketing materials and identified potential gaps in the capital market whether or not it could be done by an existing program or need another program. i think the jury is out on that. >> being a true conservative, i will yield back the balance of my time. >> i thank the gentlemen from oklahoma.

the chair recognizes the gentlemen from alabama, mr. palmar, for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. dodaro, i really appreciate the work you guys do. i hate to say it but i enjoy reading your reports. my point here is that we are in a debate over our budget which we are being asked to increase spending by $30 billion.

if we were to reduce the un-obligated balances by 3.5% that would more than cover the increase in spending. does it not make sense to do that? particularly in the context of holding money in balances and having to borrow money to fund other agencies isn't there an interest cost incurred from the spending? >> it is definitely not an efficient way to operate. i don't believe it would be prudent to do an across the board reduction. i think you have to look at targeted areas and agencies. in some cases it may make sense and in others not. in no case should it be in access of what the needs are. >> right.

i just used that in general. not specific. you would have to look at each agencies individually. but it is not sound fiscal management. >> that is correct. >> i want to direct questions to you about the tax gap. the inspector general for the tax administration, treasury inspector general issued a report, and in his report he said there needs to be more timely and more accurate estimates of the tax gap. currently the irs reports this about every five years. has the irs acted on the inspectoral general recomme recommendati recommendations? >> we intend to have a new tax report out later this month so we are acting on it as we speak. can you tell me how much the irs collected and what was the

revenue total collected for the 2015 year? over $3 trillion? >> yes. >> based on the report from the urban institute and brooking institute the tax gap ranges from 16-20 percent. let's say it is 16%. if $3 trillion came into the irs last year that means 16%. that is 84% of what should have been collected. i will not get into the math but i will just give you an idea. that means somewhere in the rage of $500-$550 billion went uncollected. what is the irs to collect the taxes that are owed? >> we have a number of initiatives. the tax gap itself -- one thing it needs to be completely

understood about the tax gap is it is made up of a lot of different committees. i am on the budget committee. this makes me want to pull my hair out and at my age i don't need to be doing that. we do everything in a ten-year window.

if it is $380 billion a year that is 3.8 trillion. we have improper payments. another one of your reports read there. >> the chair recognizes the gentlemen from texas, mr. hurd. >> thank you for saving the best

for second last. i am going talk about internet on tribal lands. there is a lack of coordination and what risk is a result of this? >> thank for the question. one of the challenges we saw was they were not doing coordinated training and a challenge for the tribal group is getting to the training and having the staff to take advantage of the programs >> have the agencies made any progress on increasing coordination? >> we did the report last year. we will follow up this year. they conquered so hopefully it is conceptual.

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>>. >> right now the information services agency manages satellite communication agencies when the findings were rendered icc issues and how coherent of policy should have been issued since that time the proportion has put more and when these are agencies with the commercial backbone kind of work with the strategic command in to establish

that. >> of all those entities of that procurement policy for the satellite communications >> with the establishment some cases we deliberately allowed for the contract to reissue the contract. >> in my remaining 15 seconds with their human-resources what is the next best action?

indicated say case for congressional oversight to find out the current plan. it is a classic case of mismanagement 422 different systems with a lack of tension by management and to focus more on that but congressional oversight is prudent to make sure that they write the ship. >> as a set of the homeland security committee in the gentleman from california is recognized. >> thank you for your good work in a lot of every

agencies don't do well. so with that said with a last comment with oversight with the executive branch implementing your recommendations i am told this is day partisan issue respective of who has control. , the gao has 459 recommendations to be partially completed by your analysis and a contrast with those recommendations by congress to be partially completed over time have you or your predecessors given friendly suggestions' how we

could feet more successful -- be more successful? >> i give friendly suggestions' all the time. [laughter] >> hopefully they are received. i pointed out in my opening statement with those big dollar savings has come from that congress has encouraged in directed the defense authorization bill with a certain actions to implement our recommendations congress has a hand. we have a long list of specific recommendations for congress to act that would save billions of dollars. and i can give you examples now. for example, with medicare.

the number of hospitals do vertical integration to operate as affiliate's in the hospital. the save as a doctor's office barite now they go to the hospital affiliated outpatientfor government reimbursing them the things that ought to be equalized there are certain cancer hospitals originally deemed special rate payment hospitals where there weren't that many that the payments are equalized. did you did say $500 million right there. with medicare a vantage there is the annual adjustment factor that is

supposed to be made for fee-for-service we don't think see a message using the most up-to-date information to make that adjustment in the last time we looked we thought it could be several billion dollars perhaps on an annual basis going forward we are recommending congress take action to lower the requirement from 250 this will help the irs with a better ability to match and prevented it in the theft is a refund fraud which last year the government lost $3 billion in debt could be more in that area. we have recommendations to the congress to eliminate payments where people can

collect unemployment insurance in also ged double benefits we think that has improved. also legislation. >> i will stop you there. that is way beyond my five minutes. >> i think he would agree of all those measures. >> there are no savings to be had. [laughter] >> the way i read your report is a civil grand jury how many of these have been implemented? and i just wonder is there a better measurement to do this in a friendly manner? even though it doesn't become infatuated and signed into law.

it is pretty clear they have for have not. is there another way we can measure that so the public can understand that? >> i will take a look at that. >> the gentleman from iowa. >> thanks to the panel for being here today i appreciate it. to commend you on the works that you do it is pretty impressive a career businessman from the free share what your department does but i share the zest for reading your reports it is extremely important for

the job that you do. thank you very much. >> if we could just go to the 60,000 books level i would appreciate that. in my constituents are interested is it your opinion it has grown so big or so large it cannot effectively be managed i think it is so large it cannot be managed some of these are very large entities hhs is agencies represented there are good

management practices to effectively manage these departments but not consistently applied that should be made that are made and as a result to have as good effective management. >> what needs to change? what needs to happen? in your estimation? part of the issue there needs to be stronger congressional oversight. if you think about it we're ready to have this happen again every change to take off your top 3,000 political appointees with the

vacancies that occur over time. that is part of our democracy but congress has a role for continuity purposes and there has to be more attention in to put into those positions to have the right qualifications and experience. for proper oversight to ensure that they carry out their responsibilities and when they come into place so the notion of management of second-class status is a fundamental problem. >> we will spend nearly

$4 trillion what percentage is wasted due to duplication of those services for waste fraud and abuse? i think it is as high as 30% it is hard to get good good figure but with improper payments was $137 billion they are required to be reported by the congress over $1 trillion. lot of money goes out the door most of that is overpayments. with that tax gap of

$385 billion with the estimate that is a lot of money that should come in in the door and have with the duplication with additional money that could be saved. >> what do we need to do razz of congress to be more effective? >> we need your support to implement our recommendations. isn't work with us more. congress is a great partner we don't have any enforcement authority we cannot compel people to implement our recommendations that congress can. that is the approach. >>.

>> the chair recognizes my good friend. >> just picking up on your last point i don't want you to miss the opportunity but every dollar we invest as a return of that $134 but this one has a return. >> and i joined that gentleman and is the notion we need to invest. >> for god's sake. [laughter] by the way for this

committee in the past has had some awful hearings for the issue of improper payments the largest single chunk of which medicare fraud. the second is money left on the table that is not collected but owed. so theoretically to zero is in the trillions of dollars because that is the low hanging fruit to make the irs more efficient but also has a return is right now we need that.

>> thank you for your thoughtful work. is about identity theft the version of refunds especially is almost epidemic eight or 10 years ago is a part of your portfolio of concern? >> primarily ted years ago -- 10 years ago to refund fraud. and don't have estimates how many people at this point of 1.4 million returns of those

refunds. >> it would have been negligible it is virtually a cost free crime that chances to identify to illegally divert and prosecute or e then punishing you are they not? >> we have prosecuted. >> i did not ask that question. but it pales in comparison. it is still a drop in the bucket in congress has to provide resources. here i am in a transaction with the federal agency and

it will not be. so to what extent is the irs experiencing a function that is the antiquated? >> it is the solution. >> there are benefits is risks associated the idea is to maximize the benefit minimize the risk provide would give congress credit of the recommendation one of the problems that they had it does not have the w-2 information from employers until april so the clerks were filing -- the crux were filing early bet they fix that now irs will get the w-2 at the end of january so

it is a better position to identify this area congress should lower the threshold for electronic filing. with the issue is can the irs change the process to take a vantage of this electronic information available? did it leads to do a better job to authenticate people before they use those lists -- those systems so futile properly it is causing the problems to occur. >> we have talked about this collaborative flee but so much of the itt of the integrated systems received

incompatible with each other think it is codeword to come up with the plan to address that because we will help you address that problem. >> we recognize said justin and from georgia. >> to i want to stir with a view to speak specifically that is listed in the duplication and it is my distending the state department did not have a strategic facility plan nor did they follow the risk mitigation policies is that

true? >>. >> you were telling me they didn't have a strategic plan for cost containment? >> what does that say about their construction and planning in general? is it not very good at all? >> we think there is a planned to be updated periodically to help orient people to come and go but to the point it doesn't look good in kabul with the embassy construction.

>> so all these developments how dangerous it was is they didn't know that in advance? >> but that was not in place >> could you say the state department failure with their own costs mitigation is a good stewardship of taxpayers' money when we talk about the magnitude of 2.$7 billion? >> i would not. in your report that you referenced earlier you stated the cost-containment risk mitigation likely contributed to the cost of the project id will finish three years later than it

was planned? >> would i be correct to say when we talk about a project of this magnitude they don't only follow their own policy what to expect for smaller projects? that is big by our standards. i can only take from the at the that they are wasting money. i have the labor the point to along here is what bothers me at the federal law enforcement training center in georgia. here is a state department needs to build the new facility for embassy personnel and i understand that we understand the happened in benghazi

initially in the report coming in the $260 million and then they wetback and compare both sites. in the chicken ahead for atavistic. and did they said wartime. we have it down that much but it caught on. i was born at night but not last night. [laughter] seriously. so here we are duplicating

we talk about where we wasted money in the past that might problem i have only been here 59 seconal but it go. i cannot see us wasting money. this is keeping me up at night. tell me what i can do. >> congress has power of the purse in the they need to use it when they don't believe the indices are taking appropriate action you have the authority that nobody can spend money without their authority and only spend it on what you tell them to spend that '01. >> i guarantee everything in my pockets will be closer at 965 million and four bridges 65 do you know, that i know

that. use see why i'm frustrated by the eric people are frustrated? >> i will get this across government every day so i share. >> i have got to get some sleep how're you used to that? >>. >> i have never gotten used to it. in to make improvements to make a better subject chair recognizes the ranking member of the full committee >> the defense department has weapons system programs with a total estimated acquisition cost of 1. $4 trillion in august 2015 with the process that says a

the military plan for more weapons than they can afford are you familiar. >> yes and i have the author with meet. >> also to invest in the al weapons to make its own decisions about spending definitive is its investments rather than a piecemeal approach to balance long he and -- near and long term leads.

>> not to the extent that we think they should. >> in the the of a projected cost will be increased by a 21% by $541 billion on the taxpayer dollars to you think the duty could save money rather than their approach is currently using? >> yes. >> what you can do with portfolio management what is the right weapons for the funding to the extent that is possible even up optimizing for individual systems any pay as much as you can the department has

taken some efforts for comments on that dod does the neck up portfolios but each organization looks at them differently they can't integrate the budgeting and acquisitions -- acquisition requirements you are right cbo estimates procurement than maybe will look at 32 percent more money for those programs that already has under way in the joint strike fighter what you don't want to do is to do a system by system and get a haircut. >> it doesn't agree with

most of gao with the deputy secretary of defense with the appropriate the irresponsibility to oversee portfolio management. why is dod not played with those recommendations? >> the department disagrees with the gao -- gao to do a better job so we're not in disagreement i would also states over the last three years to have a portfolio reviews with these very alcon in mind with the rational decision.

the key has been the department recognizes those individual piece parts to integrate this at that department why raid level. we are moving in the direction. >> they also say'' akio d does not plan to require annual enterprise level with those budget process. why not? >> i fink the disagreement is over the specifics over how to do a rather than in the intent it needs to be scrubbed at the portfolio of them -- level we don't want

to make that the centerpiece of what resources we applied with a process that comes back into being. the differences are in the implementation. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from ohio. >> how long had you been at the irs? >> i have had a stint there. >> they include all of the enforcement activities of criminal investigation including telephone services

the tax-exempt division. >> did you have any overlapping? >> i did about three months. 80 report directly to the commissioner? >> there is a tax gap? >> in that figure will be adjusted but it will not change dramatically speaking as 112 recommendations? >>. >> i am not sure are on point with the tax gap.

>>. >> is it true you'll be implemented 50 the you haven't dealt with? >> we have partially addressed. >> still 63% the need to be implemented. solicit have to deal with the tax gap. the you know, anything about the sting ray technology? >> i know it exists and

having played that in certain circumstances. >> that mimics a cellphone tower it takes the cellphone data to give the irs that has targeted people access in the geographic location the irs knows where they're at. >> how many times has used that technology? >> i feet it is about 37 times. >> deal and got a warrant to use that technology? >> did you get a probable cause warrant? >> behalf to get back to you. do they have a nondisclosure with the fbi to not disclose when you employ that did you

disclose to them that technology? to have an agreement with the fbi that we will not disclose to use that technology. >> i'm not certain. >> to of the guide and then i'll outline how they deal with stingray technology? >>. >> so those four things how many or did you get a warrant? that maybe it is sufficient you have a non disclosure it

had you received the jones memo? >> we will get that to you. >> in terms of state grey technology i would like to ask if you have never bifurcated the information if you did not get a warrant was seven your personal household? we recognize the woman from new mexico. >> take you very much. i will go off topic and i will apologize that generally speaking as a chief medical officer in ways to approve -- improve quality in the health care

system that you were aware it denied it is a great place i talk about it in nearly every context that i key and given the situation in our states that wanted to% of behavior were engaged in billing practices with the allocation of fraud so i disagree with that effort with the decision that the executive makes but here is the issue for me that three years later the companies that k bit are now largely:. there is no behavioral

health infrastructure, no continuity of care, no requirement for the government to be accurate or credible data with hhs and in cns have agreed that we have the worst public health outcome in this country with the highest overdose death with complex behavior in the state of new mexico would ruling is incarceration acute institutional care is not right for cost savings or quality and i would guess you are very aware with the highly complex station that

has developed that is now successfully on medication and management that is very hard to achieve it has completely taken away and you see a different site client one dash psychologist or psychiatrist every single time you try to get access would you agree this is not the kind of investment or sound practices of nt medicaid environment? >> they give repression client very aware of the issue of appropriate mental health we have had been working on this issue

summarizing the work. >> talk about that a little that i should mention for the record och they have all been cleared by the attorney general ed has taken three years to require the human services department to paid the providers billions of dollars. so what investments are working enamelware of very little civic we are ensuring it is following guidance. >> how does that get to a new work force? the neck, the medicaid side with access of care issues with proper network.

man working with the state. >> given that three years has gone by and i apologize for interrupting but i was a cabinet secretary for health. can you provide something in writing that talks about the ways in which god forbid it ever occurs in any other state ever again what cms ought to be doing with those acute care dollars? people lost their lives end continue to do so.

>> i agree with the principle of access care and we will provide a response. >> said chair. >> we will do a follow-up on his question but as i understand it is technology that allows law-enforcement to capture sulfone information. >> day is the key should be getting a warrant? >> i am not certain that we didn't. >> day you thank you should have? will you say that is an oversight or we don't need one? >> i am not certain to be

honest of the requirements for use of this technology fit is required or not. >> you said you used it 37 times. >>. >> why did you use this? >> in the course of the investigation. what sort of crisis with a real fact situation. >> we using it in drug cases and counterterrorism work.

>> that is beyond the purview. but not exclusively. how do you have responsibility? >> with counterterrorism work around money laundering and drug cases to affect the tax administration. we have responsibility. >> i have to get back to the committee. >> okay. >> we will move on of

disability benefits with what you are doing with that sort of thing. what do you do about overpayment with an overview? >> not only to prevent the overpayments they permanently waive repayment of over $2 billion over 10 years period a time they're not process work requirements with social security and then take action. and into process of returns very quickly because then they should take them off disability rules.

>> i am sure nobody can figure out why they are disabled but what you doing about that? >> yes we have audits under way to look at the process for the initial disability claims we're supposed to evaluate to make lots of recommendations some have been implemented sarah require legislative action. >> if i have disability for a bad back? >> that depends on the recommendation for better criteria.

to be used on a regular basis but there is a schedule they have a backlog of cases. >> i will talk to later off-camera. >> i recognize myself with the informative dialogue that we have had i would be remiss isn't unbelievable job that our staff does of a regular basis to natalie prepare that members of congress i would recognize a previous colleague obviously

this was part of his brain trust so long pass him leaving the upper chamber we continue to see the fruits of his mission and i will let knowledge that as well. so certainly i will thank you and your staff if gao ain't happy i'm not happy to put it bluntly and then have bipartisan way we're willing to attack that with those differing views of what we should attack first but to be a political instrument we will not do that if we need

to redress this sand that. it is of benefit i have then asked to testify that implementation has fallen short and i say that in a kind way like we are making progress it is like nails on a chalkboard. the matrix of what you will get done. one of the things shared with me is shared services.

with the benefits of shared services to talk about those shared services she is looking a. whose fault in who is ultimately responsible. how can we save money with one agency using services that we don't have to create individual departments? >> one example of benefit there used to be a proliferation one of those taking place of the shared

services we you shares service providers so there is a lot of potential in the area of any internal management services. we haven't done a lot beyond financial minutemen. >> if if you would see a couple of areas to address perhaps we could look at information and technology services that could be shared but if you can get that back to the committee. >> at the top of page three

it says july 2015 in to begin that process if it has received a second stingray? >> i am masher. but according to that letter. >> in but they made. >> i have never heard of stingray before. >> you gave 124 ideas to

deal with a $385 billion tax cut they have implemented less than rand 50% or 37% of the recommendations that you gave them but but the use stingray technology in the second unit to infringe nine their liberties stick that is why raise those questions why he start with those 112 recommendations we are collecting the money we are supposed to collect instead of buying stingray technology it infringing upon the liberties of tax payer americans. >> by reclaiming my time.

i saw you shaking your head yes. we need to make sure in terms of the amount of money and i don't want to put words in your mouth but it isn't linear or fair. is that correct? >> there is a recommendation that would equalize payments for services in congress passed legislation. >> can we get to this committee a plan house cns plans to address that particular recommendation? >> we will work to get back with that information. yes, sir,.

>> so we will have some kind of response in 120 days? >> we will attempt. >> what timeframe is reasonable the person doing the work said you could make a blunder drew 20 days. now we will recognize the ranking member for his closing remarks. >> i will share a concern. want to give our fighting men and women their resources but what we heard with said gao with your particular area also said vera making progress. when i don't want to do is see 40 percent of what you implement has no substantial

impact year after year that would make systemic changes in that is what i am seeing and reading that we are making limited progress for those who try to make those appropriation in decisions then we hear about those gross inefficiencies that they make on a annual basis to implement these. will you be able to report back to this committee within 120 days on the recommendations that is yet to be implemented? >> with that i will

recognize the ranking member >> with three made to the ira's we will make sure the recommendations are cost-effective untypically with the recommendation the agency has flexibility so they have that flexibility to do that we take that into account so some of these

require a little bit of the upfront investment we believe the benefits will exceed the cost of the recommendations for what was implemented last year that his net cost. we can do a lot better. >> is teethirty spending too much? >> they cannot at account for that there really major federal agency that cannot pass the test of unaudited last year alone they have scaled back requirements the only one year budget data

not to get an opinion so i am concerned we have another meeting this afternoon to focus on the areas to make improvements so they promised they would present a comprehensive correction action plan to make changes necessary but right now there is not proper accounting there is not proper oversight for those assets they are in need of significant improvement that is for all kinds of mischief

for lack of a stronger word. >> we say control problems. >> faq very much. >> let me tell you why that only this is important whether it is the highwater mark or low water mark we need to set the standard for each one of you i would hope that next year it isn't the same three agencies that are here because along with that with those improper payments across the same groups for

cms to have a role with that. there is a headline today in the last few hours that encourages social security numbers for taxes you cannot control what is this a the press but my point is it is all about the earned income tax credit and if there is something that doesn't allow all those people to go after those improper payments that where we have this problem of the nothing is either a half let us know i hope this

is the last hearing we're not addressing the problem there is too many stories out there the you can pass the independent audit with the most irresponsible hardest working people it is time to get our house in order. the committee stands adjourned. [inaudible conversations]

and

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>> i will make a statement that i have to run from here to a meeting for a number of issues. forgive me if i dash out of fear. there are some events i am curious about. and then we will wait we

will do some homework particularly pleased we hear for the report of 2015 in the entire team for producing for work and effort it is a continuous effort built without the most widely read to a defective publications and i want to stress of the standards of the compiling of this report then norma's referred to our universal

not so deep that we make up for the arbitrary standard in a universal standards and agreed to by most nations in the world these are the international standards. have paid government has the ability including the united states. the point to make over and over his respecting human rights is a moral obligation but an opportunity to harness the full energy and prosperous society and does not jeopardize the ability

to be artistic increase in an entrepreneurial to make debt difference in the building of the community. that is not a theory but a fact proven every day end countries around the world those that suppress freedom of suppression is less likely to have economies that it ovate and diversify and grow. those that discriminate against women and minorities have trouble competing is those that benefit for public trust. including