well as weiss chairman for holding today's hearing. i like to welcome and thank our distinguished panel of experts this morning for helping our task force to this important work. today's hearing will focus on how the united states can counter the plunder and sale of priceless antiquities buys the islamic state and others the relevant themes of today's hearing while focused on antiquities are analogous to what we have seen throughout our task force hearings especially those concerns related to trade base money laundering. to cut off the floor financing to terrorist organizations we need better information sharing on all fronts. this includes includes improvement and information sharing between government agencies between countries and with the private sectors we also need to be of the track the true owners of property whether that's an agent artifact or a high-rise apartment building.

we need to cut off trade routes that terrorist organizations use to finalize goods. the same strategies we need to combat antiquities trafficking can be used in a broader strategy to combat isis. this task force discussed the roots that isis used to smuggle cash, we learn many of these routes run through turkey and jordan and has prepared marks for for today's hearing it was indicated that isis is using similar routes to smuggle antiquities of its territories. in addition he notes lebanon as was the volken route through greece and bulgaria are being used to smuggle illicit commodities. currently there's ample opportunities for terrorist groups with a low risk of being caught. we need to do a better job police in these routes isis can

no longer smuggle antiquities out of the territory that it controls. for the more we must curtail the laundering of antiquities that make it out of isis control of territory so these goods cannot be integrated into legitimate markets. as lawrence and mentioned in their prepared marks as well isis ability to profit from the sale is only possible because of a systematic problem of trade base money laundering in the art industry. we need to bring together greater rules of transparency to this so trafficking is no longer profitable. as doctor suggests, to better track art and antiquities that enter the united states we should request export papers for anything that's more than 10,000 dollars and require tariff on these items. i look forward to a testimony so we can further look at this

issue in greater detail. >> i now recognize when opening statement the vice president of the task force, mr. pitt injure for north carolina for two minutes. >> thank you for your dedication and hard work of these important issues. i i like to also thank ranking member lynch as well as our professional staff for assembling such an esteemed group of witnesses here today. over the last year we have gain important insight into the threats facing our nation, how they are funding and that monday obstacles we face with these funds. recently recently i had the opportunity to travel to south america and i witnessed firsthand the problems they face with regard to illicit financing operations in iran, has led another. while the palms are great i was inspired the officials in argentina, panama, colombia paraguay who are test with a heavy burden of combating these

networks. we must continue working with these countries and sharing our own resources and expertise to ensure these countries do not become overrun by well financed criminal and organizations. today we look at isis. it remains the world's most dominant and barbaric terrorist organization. according to national security strategy it is the objective of the united states to degrade and defeat isis. while this administration overall strategy remains questionable, both parties can agree that preventing the flow of dollars to fund isis and its caliphate must remain a top priority priority of our government. with this hearing, congress is signaling the importance of identifying their financing. whether be cross-border cross smuggling or antiquities in sales. thank you mr. chairman for holding this in hearing.

ideal back. >> i recognize the general lady from arizona for one minute. >> thank you. terrorism is an undeniable threat to our country security and global stability. networks constantly develop new ways to finance their deadly operations and threaten america. the islamic state is one of the world's most violent, dangerous and well-financed terrorist group. within the past year they put greater pressure on other financial resources, they have gone to the sale of antiquities to fund. funds are raised from direct looting as well as through imposing taxes and required permits for criminal smugglers who operate in controlled territory. the impact of the actions go beyond's. the destruction of sale of the antiquities is also part of their a pop lick dick worldview in which anything outside of their vision of islam must be destroyed.

but these historical's treasures is a tragedy. we we must be one step ahead cutting off its funding. i appreciate hearing from our witnesses about addressing this threat. ideal back. >> we now welcome our witnesses mr. robert is our first witness today, he he is the author of several nonfiction books including rescuing dimension, the monuments meant, allied heroes, nazi thieves, and the thieves, and the greatest treasury hunt in history as well as saving italy, the race to rescue treasure from the nazis. he is coproducer coproducer of the documentary film, the rape of europa founder and president of men's foundation for the preservation of our. most famously academy award winner george clooney directed and starred in the film the monuments men which was released in 2014. raised in texas he graduated from st. mark's school of texas and southern methodist university. he has been several awards both

for humanity award, presented by the dallas museum in 2014 he was presented with the records achievement award from the foundation archives which recognizes an individual whose work has fostered a broader national awareness of the history and identity of the united states through the use of original records. his trustee of the world war ii museum in new new orleans. our next guest spent seven years as of both an economic and counterterrorism in that cia where he briefed white house level policymakers, u.s. military personnel and federal law-enforcement. after government service he worked in a small consulting firm where he led a team of analysts on a

multibillion-dollar recovery effort involving a corruption ring. he operated his own consulting practice specializing in strategic analysis and business to diligence. he received he received an ma in national affairs from columbia university school of international public affairs and a ba in economics from uc berkeley. doctor patty is an distinguished professor at the depaul university school of law. patty is a distinguished research professor and director of center for art, museum and cultural heritage law. she is founding president of the lawyers committee for preservation, a director of of the u.s. committee of the blue shield, and senior advisor to the arts and cultural law committee. in 2011, she was appointed by resident obama to serve as the chair of the presence cultural property advisory committee of the u.s. department of state. previously she was editor-in-chief of the journal of cultural properly. she received her bachelor's and

phd phd in art history and anthropology from harvard university. doctor armer is a professor at shawnee state university. a his associate position he was educated in the u.k. >> he graduated with a doctoral degree in 1991. he was the director of scientific and conservation laboratories at the department of general antiquities department syria. he taught at the university of damascus until 2006 from 2006 through 2009 he 2009 he was visiting assistant professor at brigham young university. he's an active member of the syrian opposition and serves on the executive committee of the day after project. mr. schendel is chairman of the u.s., new york headquarters rs insurance corporation, division of the

nasdaq trade-in group. the title insurance corporation is the world leader in securing legal ownership through non- from multiple industry sectors. he regularly advises, speaks, speaks and writes internationally on the legal title risk inherent in the global markets. >> he should holds a bachelors the university of wisconsin, madison and a doctorate from emory university school of law. witnesses will not be recognized for five minutes each to give an oral presentation of your written remarks. without objection written statements will be made part of the record following their oral remarks. once each of the witnesses have spanish presenting testimony members of the task force will have five minutes within which test questions each. on your table there are three lights, one green, yellow, red, yellow means you have one minute remaining, red means your time is up.

we would ask the witnesses to please speak directly into the microphone. with with that, you're recognized for five minutes. >> turn the microphone on play. >> i like to extend my thanks to chairman fix patrick, ranking members and staff of the task force for including me in these important deliberations. evidence that isis has sanctions looting and sale of antiquities to generate revenues for terrorism is a game changer. it compels us to think about the ownership of arts, the responsibility of the art trade and collectors, and the role of the federal government differently than ever before. we before. we cannot say that we were not warned. as recently as 1981, monuments man, the only monuments officer to see duty in italy and germany

and are part and adviser to general eisenhower staff urged all those willing to listen quote planners for future hostilities tend to think in terms of the last conflicts but any consideration of different ways in which the first and second world wars are fought demonstrates the fallacy of such an approach. this generation wishes to leave to its children the culture treasures that it has enjoyed, such planning should be encouraged. the warning one unheeded and in iraq in 2003 and more recently in syria has painfully demonstrated that he was right. the monuments men saw firsthand that the destruction of church, artistic and religious treasures as the starter gun that precedes genocide in the human suffering that follows. it it proved true in nazi germany, and al qaeda -controlled areas afghanistan and n it isis administer portions of syria and iraq. ignoring this early warning sign

denies our nation the chance to act. we can only react. organizations that are charged with preserving our cultural heritage are instead relegated to bearing witness to its destruction. steps we as a nation have taken to protect our homeland following september 11 have not kept pace with developments in the art world. nowhere near. today artists with money, the global explosion of wealth this past 20 years has created more buyers with greater resources chasing priced objects. prices have skyrocketed, considered a painting for a picasso that sold for less than $200,000 in 1956 recently sold for 180,000,000 dollars. a sculpture for dollars. a sculpture for 140 million. a drawing for 150 million. the sons are staggering yet regulatory authorities have not created and applied the same level of control procedures in

the art market as we had in other areas of commerce involving similar sums of money. this creates a weakness that isis and others tax cheat. those in possession of looted paintings can exploit. the very profitability and sometimes they're relatively small size facilitate movement, sometimes it's into hiding places outside of you by tax authority. for example just last week the panama papers lake revealed that a nazi looted painting was worth upwards to 25,000,000 dollars million dollars it was among thousands of works of art stored in special tax cells known as reports. while this art does privacy, the lack of transparency also has tax cheats, thieves and those aiding isis' business operations of converting cultural treasures

to cash to fund terrorism. they are treated as a largely self regulated antiquated business model operating in a digitized, near invisible world. until the internet in the 1990s, few in the art will pay attention to providence, a fancy word for who own something in the past unless it enhances the value of the object. looted are traded hands, some of it openly. although there has been improvement in the scrutiny of objects sold to public option there remains a high degree of willful ignorance by some collectors eager to add to their collections. worse still is their lack of knowledge about what they already own. some don't want to know. who can be against increased transparency? text chiefs, those who possess stolen works of art, smugglers, terrorism networks? because privacy alone cannot be an argument for doing nothing when the stakes for the common good are so high.

in closing, the policy is established a high bar during times of conflict. it was a source of pride for general eisenhower who said it is our privilege to pass on to the coming centuries treasures of past ages. what then will be the art legacy? >> you are now recognized for minutes. >> thank you, good money. members of the task force come on behalf of the foundation of defensive democracies and centers on sanctions thank you for the opportunity to testify. before delving into into the issue of islamic state antiquities trafficking it's important to clarify how the trait fits into isis overall economic goals. one way to understand is to look at the strategies guiding the actions. one of isis aims is to win over locals who may be on the fence regarding committing to jihadist rule. this approach give context to

the trade-in isis territory. how much they earn is difficult to assess, they encourages and facilitates the tray. it appears to be part of isis economic strategy, not just for fun in the group itself but for creative ways to bring roads to a subjective population. isis has been dubbed the world's richest terrorist army. illegal antiquities trade is one income stream that gives an advantage against existing counterterrorism efforts. the trade's main target buyers are ironically history enthusiasts and art aficionados in the united states and europe. representatives of the society which isis has pledged to destroy. this poses several challenges to policymakers but there may be opportunities worse as well. isis has access to roughly 5000 archaeological sites and has

earned several millions dollars from antiquities trafficking. some looting appears to happen in local communities where isis confiscates other professions. the importance of the trade for isis night lights not just in the funny but in the market strategic and operational benefits. the illegal trade of artifacts generally doesn't risk provoking outside military attacks. it's not likely the excavation sites are going to be bombs or -- the pipelines that move antiquities to market invariably transit sates boarding syria and iraq. turkey and lebanon of the best documented. these pipelines are well-known for other illicit commodities but less understood in the context of antiquities. the volken route into europe is a notepad for drugs and migrants are probably pays plays a role.

the global annual trade in illicit art and antiquities is hard to stop. there are hidden away for long periods. whilst documentation. false documentation is routine and transactions are proven difficult to track. the challenges are great and necessitating new means to counter them. the following are some recommendations to help address this. one, the posting terrace sanctions on artifacts smugglers and dealers. even a handful of strategic terror financing imposed on the worst offenders would likely have a chilling effect on both sellers and buyers given the financial risk and fines associated with sanctions area to, making antiquities looting and intelligence law-enforcement a priority. at present, it's unclear who in the u.s. government is responsible for countering antiquities trafficking. reform can only come about by declaring this issue a national security priority. u.s. government must designate a lead organization and provide resources. three : incorporating cultural

crime awareness into intelligence community and u.s. special forces training. finances already emphasize the course is taught at joint special operations university but they do not appear to highlight antiquities despite their role in terror finance. it should be included in future coursework. for, expanding registries. new technology makes it possible for art and artifacts to be tagged and tracked in real-time. even using using to it dna markers. over time, by taking a large number better tracking can be created. these are just a few steps that can undoubtedly be a long battle. long enforcement intelligent officials should pay close attention emanating from syria and iraq.

what is important is the trait itself reveal something about islamic states operational infrastructure. its links with partners and middlemen, and how the group is exploiting the local civilian population. all critical to understand how the u.s. and allies may defeat the group. militarily, financially, and ideologically. thank you. >> chairman fitzpatrick, ranking member lynch and members of the test force, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you. as mentioned i service the chair of the cultural property advisory committee and state department. however, i'm speaking to today and my personal capacity and on behalf of the u.s. committee of the blue shield. it is a cultural equivalent of the red cross. it is used to mark protective cultural sites. among the current activities of our organization is the creation of no strike list of cultural sites or repositories. we liaise with the department to

assist in fulfilling our obligation to protect cultural heritage during armed conflict. syria and northern iraq are rich in historic remains stretching over millennia. this is where the canadian king ruled and the where the hebrew prophet, jonah preached successfully 1000 years earlier. and as many faiths including judaism, christianity and and islam. minority groups such as the yazidi's, and others. it's been home to six world heritage sites. when an an archaeological site is alluded the relationship among the other remains is destroyed. thereby permanently preventing preventing us from fully understanding and reconstructing our past. unfortunately the leading looting is big business. often carried out and organized industrialized scale.

in response to market demand. in many of these sites are unknown before they are looted. as cultural objects move from source, transit and transit and destination countries, different legal systems create obstacles and prosecution of crime. they allow allowed the laundering of titles to these artifacts. united states is the single largest market for arts in the world. is 43% of market share. because of the availability of the charitable tax deduction, the ability to part works of art and artifact without payments and because of artistic preference the united states is the largest market for antiquities. antiquities freshly looted from the grounds have no established value. no documented history. they can be mined from the ground as new commodity. therefore they had the perfect vehicle for moving funds in value around the world

and supporting illegal activity such as trade base money laundering, purchase of drugs and weapons, organized crime, and terrorism. because of the unknown nature of recently looted antiquities, databases databases have stolen art, there for the most part useless for regulating the tray. technology that would tag cultural objects would in my opinion be similarly ineffective. both isil and the assad regime are realizing income from the sale of antiquities. satellite images show historic patterns of looting conflict. in this image of the site of mari, and that's located in eastern syria and fell under isil control in the summer 2014, pre-conflict you you can see some looter pics but not many. in the fall of 2014, i hope i hope you can see the large number of looters many of which with the red circles around them but there are additional ones as well.

we know isil earns income at several points of intersection with the channels through which they are to fix move. we also know that for propaganda purposes isil destroys on a larger public stage a movable structure such as ancient temples, churches and shrines. they also destroy artifacts that are documented in museum collections on our well to well-known to sell or too large to move. away from from public view it orchestrates the looting of antiquities taxing the strugglers. you will hear more about this later. there are steps the united states can take to impose little cost and no risk to american citizens because these are states we can take in the united states. it would also reduce the economic rewards. first well, returning to the house next week i hope will be hr 1493, it will impose import restrictions on cultural materials illegally removed from syria after the beginning removed from syria

after the beginning of the rebellion in march 2011. second, take up hr 2485 for improved customs. third, encourage law-enforcement to refocus attention away from forfeiture and reap penetration of objects and dismantle the criminal networks. for, foster greater transparency and accountability in the market. among other things required documentation of ownership history upon sale, donation to charitable institutions. finally look prospectively for places were isil's movies such as libya which is also home to many archaeological sites. we sites. we need to develop proactive rather than reactive way of dealing with the problem of antiquities, looting and marketing. thank you for the opportunity, i look for to answering your question. >> thank you. >> i like to begin by thanking the finance committee and its

test force to invite me to testify on such an important subject. i'll focus my remote marks on three key points. one when isis took over territory in 2014 it essentially took over pre-existing situation of looting. isis did not start the looting, just carried it on. moreover, it actually institutionalize the process and intensified it to a great degree. in fact what we can say is isis sees cultural heritage as a resource to be exploited like any other. we know know this because isis has a dedicated department for the administration of the looting of antiquities. you can see her for example this is one of the offices and it is placed under the office of resources which also manages oil revenue, taxation and any other source of revenue that isis wants to use.

licenses are issued to looters which allow them and gives them permission to loot an article archaeological site. in fact it's a source of revenue as our extension says using this case here. this looter having dug up the site decided he needed an extension so he purchases an extension and then needed to use heavy machinery. the second image on the right you can see that he purchases an actual extension to his license allowing him to use heavy machinery. the heavy machinery is being used together to chunks of earth. if you don't think this is producing good material, here are some of the fines that came out of this one license site has been looted. not only these pieces of pottery but also as you can see these

metal items all dating and coming from a bronze age too complex. we also know that when isis licensees these sites it also requires the looter to sell the items. if he fails to sell them that isis will take them back and they will use their main auction in the city of raqqa. we know there's a major sale eyes often is three times a week when necessary. these two items where looted just before isis was forced to out of the city. they were sold sold about three weeks ago in the raqqa ocean auction. i believe it is 150,000 dollars. i cannot confirm that was the price achieved but that was the asking price. isis having mentioned also

destroys cultural heritage. it does so for propaganda purposes. it loots what it can sell, it destroys what it cannot. large monuments like these are being destroyed because they allow isis to act with impunity and the impotence of the international community to do anything about it. it's a powerful propaganda. >> .. >>

>> therefore falls on the non-state actors the curators are archaeologists to do something in the the ngos the day after with the initiative which try to do a leaky into monitor the damage and destruction but then try to document any activity that occurs related to this but at the end of the day we are just civilians. we don't have institutional support from organizations in the united states with the cultural heritage center as the antiquities collection but this support is limited and hardly addresses the scale of the catastrophe we're facing. i would also touch upon the importance of this cultural

heritage i about of time i am happy to answer questions. >> to the ranking member before writing me to testify and the task force itself with those news clips by submitted a lot more detailed testimony to the conflict zone of cultural objects relates to the broader problem of the industry as representative lynch you accurately pointed out that could only happen at the intersection of the art and financial industries.

and to remove the economic motive to cut off a key source of terrorism financing to make great strides of the cultural legacy. effective solutions are now within reach. reviewing with the financial regulators information based technology and solutions for transparency for the trip antiquaries transaction. believing that simpson has the ability to use its authority to bring greater transparency and information sharing to the department of approaches to the u.s. treasury to detect and share information on the patterns of behavior for the sector transaction these have been identified through cultural

objects as well as trade based money laundering. this stems from its role as the legal -- leading title insurer with a broad range of stakeholders of the financial markets ended testing is that asset class as well as the trade. the problem is as you have heard with a lack of record-keeping all of which obscures legal standish and beneficial ownership. it prevents market participants to identify patterns when identifying those is the core of the enforcement and compliance. compound in those problems as you have heard is a tax-free zone designed to

serve as a way station so the task assigned is levied at the final destination of the object. locations to store to add to the ups vacation of the art industry. and then to identify the problem as early as 2010 with those well intended operators as the market as whole so attacking terrorism is impeded the ability for the pieces of the intermission of the use for

more accurate and timely information with the use of technology with the information gaps. we believe since we have the authority to place title insurance companies and for information sharing to ignite this type of solution in the industry to enable them to detect defective patterns to adjust the accurate information leaked to artistic and cultural objects as the campus in albany from the global center of innovation standards based solutions to enable technologies the equivalent of the national

scale is now within reach so the information can be generated to provide reliable information. thank you. >> the key to all the witnesses for their testimony as a move to the member's questions. first we recognize the lady from missouri who previously served as embassador that give us a perspective on this subject. >> the spee your courtesy to let me jump ahead and appearing before the task force today to discuss the elements that terrorists are using to obtain financing and typically the sale of cultural artifacts has been occurring since the '80s and '90s under the regime of

saddam hussein to avoid international sanctions. and to fuel their operations to expand here is some worldwide. and how this intersects with our financial institutions is critical with the efforts to eliminate isis. it is great to see you again. at the beginning of 2015 that any money laundering and it is limited to the trade of cultural property because they are not covered did through those standards.

>> it comes back to organizing the information. so what on the ground means to prevent the looting of the objects it is alaska's of systemic system for what is happening to the object between the gaps of information with the a reliability of information to x by that -- exports the document so what happens there is the specific strategy to move up the ladder from the less important trade sources with each step of the way to create a new credibility so it gets to the good faith market everything is out of control so it means that

information every step of the way will shut down the problem. >> fame sure you're keeping up with current events was there an issue with a stolen art with their recent panama papers can you discuss the details of that? >> that situation highlights what effectively is the black called of the industry because of lack of transparency. so far many objects the real problem that you don't know because of the lack of transparency. so yes they may end up in tax driven facilities which enables hiding that type of information. >>, so that is across the board what is necessary in the space? you mentioned briefly that your company submitted a

request of intent that title insurance be subject to the secrecy act. why did you make the request ? >> it is a means to create information sharing so one of the large banks is offered a basket of arch -- aren't objects or a loan transaction for $50 million. right now because of a lack of information sharing it would have no way of knowing if that same basket of assets in each of which with different information and of which is accurate it is limited to the transaction in front of them. because of the title in sharers role the keystone to africa and integrity it

becomes the of cortex to organized disinformation to turn it into reliable their privacy protected information that can be deployed back. >> the financial action task force recommended the financial institutions should improve efforts of those transactions what progress has been made and the private sector take to improve these efforts. >> i would like 2.0 at the moment it is not necessarily illegal to bring antiquities from syria into the united states it is not in the sanctions were general legal principle.

>> that is a huge hole. >> yes. [laughter] we hope that would be plugged very soon and that is that even a criminal provision just something for civil forfeiture. >> i yield back none of my time and i hope my colleagues will explore the further. >> mr. lynch. >> following up on the line of questioning what is possible to look at the panama papers and some suggested legislation of terrorist financing we have gone to jordan and morocco and other places asking the leadership to adopt

money-laundering of terrorist financing legislation. >> i have a question the committee regularly travels to iraq from the anbar province in respect some time numerous times in southern turkey on the syrian border. to me with the rebel groups operating in syria against assad a lot of those groups are using the social media platform. just going back to the question with a chain of custody on these artifacts

coming out of syria and iraq. is there a way? and though they are marketing and selling these antiquities is there any way for us to interject? >>. >> this is what we do. we track the sales we have people on the ground that i regularly have and that i receive every day dozens of these photos. we receive this information

but what happens next is the big hole and i agreed that we have no means of them moving this information on. not in a meaningful way and then it goes down the rabbit hole. so there is a complete breakdown in terms of how this information is used. i collect that every day but it is collected by people on the ground so then what happens afterwards. >>. >> one is the means to anchor the object so everybody knows this is the exact top -- object. 2-acre there verified information so one knows the

object that belongs in then the third is a means to organize information to identify the anomalies. in those stains to be generated with a different time line in a different part of the world. >> i will just add and with law enforcement and social media to go after criminals and smugglers outside of antiquities.

the introduction comes from law-enforcement with their platform of choice. and i should have said this in the beginning and then to the benefit did greatly by your expertise. >> thank you for your work on this issue. i was honored to speak about the need to counter isis trafficking with antiquities. is to realize just as a

third reich tried to destroy history with book birding and tried to restart by destroying evidence, here you have the taliban and isis are united in the concept to destroy all evidence of this serious civilization, babylonia. the appalling aspect of it when they talk about taking the pyramids down brick by brick they talk about this in all stowe -- afghanistan they mean it.

with those smaller antiquities and i was going to ask what we have. i know how much you have worked on this over the years in trying to address this coming back from the senate through this type of legislation. as i mentioned before there is no legal mechanism in place to prohibit the deportation into the united states. and where they seem to be

moving next. it from coming to united states to the middleman along the way to sell the new united states. and they will not be a market it to cut down from market demand to earn less money or no money. and if these are not available then isil will earn less money from the antiquities looting. live with that attack their it is isis that comes over the border to carry out

attacks specifically. and through those hellenic periods. can you expand why they are so attracted to antiquities smuggling? in the process on the legislation iran affair is for the first part of your question if you look at isil revenue much of what they have gotten they got early on end to dispossess the people that the takeover but

antiquities provides this opportunity as they continue to get new resources but a flowing resources of revenue traveling partners or people. that is a strategic benefit and in terms of blood diamond of parallel is the have the ability to change the conversation. to understand where diamonds are produced. and with the blood diamonds' issue with the accountability with lessons learned. >> and to discuss the need

to act quickly. >> said gentleman from michigan. >> they keep it to the panel for a very interesting and important presentation. spend a minute or two the use of freeport's as relates to entities. so to what extent and related to a antiquities are we seeking multiple transactions taking place making it more difficult to

track? what other difficulties to uc in the context of this question? >> with the category of free ports there are those of the written testimony and several thousand free zones around the world. they are always stations with the movement of these assets. most industries are correct for legitimate purposes but the nature of the industry and the rapidity with which it moves make it difficult for officials around the world to make sure if the information provided is valid than the movement of

cultural artifacts as well. i ask the use of the free ports right now are on the rise because they become challenging with the lack of clarity that enables the movement of the asset. >> what about those changes to mitigate against the use in order to execute transactions? for example, extending safe harbor protections to brokers or dealers for those involved to provide information that could be helpful to law enforcement authorities? to make their real problem

is then had real information to associate with anything else. it becomes noise and that is why we focus on the global initiative to create ways to recognize this and that information so they have good pieces but until you can organize it stylistically it is very complex with the market to become the alternate obstacle that has to be overcome. to what extent of satellite imagery and to to be currently under the control of isis or others.

are you able to gain access to satellite imagery? >> with the american association of events meant of science to the government with satellite imagery. they should -- they have not been made public but that condition just before the offensive was taken over so it is difficult to assess how much damage was done by the russians or the regime as they took the side as opposed to what was done earlier by isil. obviously people cannot go in on the ground and there

is a group at the university of chicago working to quantify with thousands and thousands with those reports over periods of time to come up with an actual assessment because what has been looted under control so as to look at that realistic number how much money every talking about? >> my time has expired. thanks for your important testimony. >>.

>> ag mr. chairman. what are the illegal privacy laws dealing with the art dealers with a chance for a of information what can we do not regard? >> don't think the problem is the current stage of the privacy laws but rather getting the core information it to provide with day you would refer to information. you can go back to have put

with the sistine rules said regulation instead don't think we need a change with what is private or not better dizzying the reformation and then have access stick into have

access but the middle men inherit -- private collectors pro but people are sold through the

internet run hello to instead old. when. >> did serious his so most of this when it comes to this to under a confidentiality provisions we need to have that

transparency to do our job. hat hough ahead with those reasons it may or not to the front of our fish and and and what can begin to redress but if we documented

as much as possible and is a huge task and what we're focused on. and henry will used to proceed and huge floral and an but maybe my doctors him into this question put into

cadiz because they're not documented proving what is legal and illegal is extremely difficult. fisa they have to go on a to

fill but then the dollar value of the it to increase.

will we have tests ahead year and and with those legal purchases coming in from elsewhere that is coming into the united states that they have half. >> brother any obligations said dealer has to know who

the seller is? even though it is the private transaction soon but without legal obligation of the part smooth as though an unwritten but the illegal antiquities travel all the

way through the market. >> what can we do read to require these documents be maintained and the law-enforcement parade now needs a search warrant. >> even if he declares

something of the very local. the attorney is repeaters 45 lahood to info but your

contribution can be interested. could you elaborate it you believe this saving is true if we are better able to do the debt of this is here to find because so much of the

damage that to place in europe was a result of the allied bargaining in did this time in his head hit

put those who have leave organization did hit hands wave reaches the had 3 million troops did europe but to say because we cannot put troops on the ground we cannot do anything is ridiculous. the united states as a leader of technology we're now larry but to realities about collectors going back

to those works of art than the mr. lynch purchase

bluetooth davis is to read the elias to save 5 billion objects. the and not interested in into the the irs will get

more than double take a burden off of taxpayers there is the emergence head

bill the church bells to the statues was extraordinary. isis will not have those resources but there is a strong incentive to do it and they certainly those are

a grave risk of being destroyed. we see that the evolving why destroy them when we can sell them and convert to cash? >> a cultural genocide in the middle east. it came through multiple years and i am also interested why limit this to more than syria? fr other countries how do we determine their recent years is something that is out of the marketplace? are we hurting the

legitimate antiquities trade? and finally aren't we enabling the assad regime? and their to institutionalize their control. and then to be an sellable in the united states to be forfeited at the border they would not go back in the u.s. government would decide when to reach her and then bin dido think that will happen so who knows what to government will emerge at the end of the day but i imagine when relations are normalized until see this as helping out the assad regime

is a normal process in place to import restrictions from countries at ask for our assistance. pass to start with the request from the country syria had not done that none of them there all their arrests to bypass the requirement of the request and did 1493 is written betrayed the united states in the syrian government to bring the request under.

so vice show up at of border with an object that have come from syria once it matches with a designated list now i have to show it left before march 2011 so that helps significantly. because showing where it was in other ways to show documentation but it would be in portable into the united states and with deicide government.

>> they give for your leadership with this important hearing. >> it describes the largest scale of mass destruction with the second world war the scientific and cultural organization director with the destruction of dirt -- of the sites to be the international war crimes. and with the value of the property may range between 3.four and 6 billion

annually. so my question to you with those individual islamic state that those islamic state fighters are pillaging of those antiquity sites take 1% off the top than most of the profits of that trade is to the benefit of the middle man. this is some source of revenue. is it more a matter of wiping out the cultural and religious artifacts with us

twisted ideology. >> are they equal motives or is one predominant? >> in to see what is going on inside their head if we can find a way with that opportunities we are cutting down on one of the main reasons to address those ideological motivations and i emphasize people all the time say why do we have monument and/or blue shield people? that would be suicide the can't send them into harm's

way without protection but the world has changed. and with non-military weapons that either of -- i should say are evolving with the use of aerial photography to the developments on the ground with the 3d technology people think about these things. did both manchin and potential ways to disrupt the trade of antiquities. also with import restrictions.

and for those loaded into equities in to make quite a few recommendations. and that what we're trying to get out. there is the threat of prosecution to have their assets seized. into be a bold move with the potentially greater incentive is a tool that we use you can debate how effective but in the remaining time. >> and in to support the

right legislation but because it is entirely profit driven ultimately the only way we can protect the antiquities is to take back the territory and that will have to happen to preserve and protect the sacred sites. i yield back. >> as more and more pressure is put on isis. to stop this horrible pillaging of human history?

that there are different to loot and sold the antiquities? >> different than now? >> if you extrapolate for us what the reaction will be with terrorist activities and the focus should not be on what to do now because the seated that opportunity away once isis took control of the areas. and what about we do next?

they will go and if there is oil revenue it is the simple fungible immediately profitable way to generate revenue. with that maturity it goes to isis we should know about the treasures and how to get along of the cultural treasures. if we want to curry favor and with the other countries

and to go away my opinion. >> and now over to libya to be much more active. >> that is not a question i am qualified to answer. >> we do know the archaeological sites. and added that a satellite imagery. is a dead few have been a real or getting revenue you can bomb it.

>> talk about the war going around the area of concern that the very first monument stickman's started so we're back to where we begin. >> anybody else? i am specifically looking it

it has not been obtained through illegal activity. the good faith market tries as hard as they can to acquire or sell to take a gift of implicated assets.

but to make sure it is supported. >> i really think it is the answer looking at the pharmaceutical industry that 20 years ago problems of adulterated drugs but it is far better than there was. not in tell the entire distribution chain as to use different words in the art world came together with sustained the integrity of the object so we had these dynamics of the ideological motivations that try to eradicate identity at the same time we destroy it with

that terrorism takes into the trade. a lot of the ideas are multidimensional or at this site to prevent the destruction that the incentivize everyone from monetizing around that asset >> the gentleman from ohio is recognized. >> a lot of great questions have already been asked i would like to follow-up to some of those questions. you said in your statement that of making the data

national-security priority we could start to reform to make it intelligence and law-enforcement priority. how? is that an executive action? how low do you make that happen quickly? >> there are already institutions and agencies operating on this issue but we should have greater resources like the state department has a huge role in this. with the cultural diplomacy that we could leverage more talked-about public perception to emphasize and highlight this issue if you

think about blood diamonds and about life trafficking trafficking, these are industries if you have an animal something that they deal with every day but we don't have that in the same sense as antiquities i would also say that you already have you considered dedicated to find those so that is a structure to elevate to diligence to bring antiquities within the government but at the national security council there is an opportunity

there i know we have spoken about the legislation but as the former government to cease out as and about the legislation that is pending to be in the importation of certain antiquities from the perspective of the panel would other legislative proposals you talked about pedigree for lack of a bedouin dash better word of recent ownership of the antiquities so what other legislative proposals should be pursued if we get at this problem? >> we already have the out of the homeland security

committee with no new law and would require the parts of plants security customs border protection and the enforcement agency to work together and for instance they have not read the directive since a 1990 which is out of date so there are several steps that can be taken but not legislatively the number of ports that it could be imported could be restricted so to recognize and know the laws. it is a very narrow area of the law if their trade as agents it should be limited in we can concentrate the expertise to have better

outcomes of lawsuits and criminal prosecution and. >> are there any ports today of what is more active? >> but because of that that until you declare something they don't respect that so there are some other ports in particular in the south like houston and santa fe sometimes those a don't have a lot of integrity to be picked up through alaska where geographically and make sense so we kayhan

concentrate to have trained experts who would take on these cases that could use more resources. but i don't think we have the same level of the there when they have promised southern district and when there is a criminal conviction if they knew there is a resource guide line in place 12 years did not raise to half. consolidation of resources for more effective law enforcement and criminal sentencing outcome but maybe

it will ask you a little more detail to explain that sideline dash slighted what we're looking at. the second one. but first a quick question.

but what about investigations in the anecdotal evidence? >> i don't except i know in the bulletin is states it is rare that people have been approached. i would assume there should be investigations that is worth investigation. >> so even though the bureau does have a good team then think of all of the agents

but then to be returned to the orders with no prosecution but if this is my agent syria in antiquity by looking at it as far as

we know what the cases that we have either through undercover investigation, or somebody who flipped like my bookkeeper. it takes time to develop but one way to get the criminal is through the sanctions but then knowledge factor is still a problem.

>> can you go into more detail what we're looking at? as a response to a question are we doing enough in the united states? >> is a first life easier? >> shows the of the king the right structure but all of those around it are luted. with those were only two or three months to for the redress taken.

>> if you drop that often add to that? >> basically but this was before the conflict started. and when i says to a covert and he is a in reno but controlled by this one village to the highest bidder now and isis took

over they came upon the pre-existing situation say a half to work through us so now we issue a the licenses but now what has to go through us and we have to take every step of the process. it is repeated in slide after slide. this is a combat zone does anyone want to predict of the next potential site insider outside? >> the whole world. >> libya without question. >> i concur. >> it essentially does the

78 day have a whole laky he was the beach -- we have five fisker of a bite to get action points what would you do if you were in our seat? legislation and to work.

but we have to give people their collecting too understated is a responsibility on their part to us a consequence that allows us to go after those who are involved in now we

have this here to. to require importers to declare war and vice they've waited is i can go into our huge and and then they receive a tax deduction and at the moment under that cyrus.

but on the supply end increase support organization setter on the ground in syria to help prevent looting. but there is the number on the car you cannot sell it without that and say with objects. it is very simple but to be a sort of responsibility but

for that accurate information had to a unit no it is real or fake but with the many of these subjects be acknowledging the solutions to put the numbers in effect but they must be in place over decades of the centuries for the technology

to do that today. that has to do with the transparency to make. >> you are extremely but there will be days to submit additional questions and now the here is adjourned. [inaudible conversations]

>>. >> host: is reading your book gone vacation in then he started to say that hamilton's life had the hip-hop narrative i thought what is this guy talking about? the he was though world class ignoramus.

and to tell them to this large and complex story. i guess it is very dense and rapid to talk about the fact not only it ended shipped

the nation into its corporate go to for. . .