>> recently campaign 2016 made a visit to pennsylvania during her primary. liberty rock university, washington and jefferson college and harrison college where students, professors and locals talked about coverage. visitors were also able to share their thoughts about the upcoming election. we ended the week in warrington, pennsylvania where a large 79th graders special thanks to our cable card -- cable partners are helping coordinating community visits. you can view the documentaries@student cam .org.

>> host: welcome to afterwards again. i interviewed you for crisis in command, a rich history of five presidents. i love leading you to prepare,prepare, interviewing you, and read it again after the interview. >> i hope you bought two copies. >> that i did not do. i jumped at it. i found he did not write the book.

but there is good news. it is a compilation of legal essays by 26 legal scholars talking about various areas of the executive branch, again the executive branch. liberty nemesis car really liberties downfall. a pretty dire time. tell me how it came about. >> first, thank you so much for interviewing me again. you have renewed my desire to write more books faster so that it is not once every six years. this book came together because i was trying to think about what characterize the obama administration over the last seven years. i wrote this about foreign-policy crisis in command and presidential power directed and national security threat. the growth of the presidency , the story has

been untraveled expansion of administrative state, agencies, the federal government command we look at the media sometimes we see corruption, tiny signs of it here and there. a lot of cases are collected in this book, but the real story is how large government has grown over the last years. we might see it in cases like the obama care statute, the bailout, but it is a story that is an almost every subject area. >> how do you decide who was going to be part of it.

some of the great criminal lawyers our country. we picked michael e-uppercase-letter for the attorney general. he couldn't think of a better person. past the former congressman, libertarian party candidate. >> probably still libertarian. >> crisis in command. he talk about strong executives and discussed how the founding fathers debated. a strong executive. back in that time there weren't any agencies. george washington did never campaign. serrated now cries.

the whole federal government was never large than 300 people, mostly customs collectors and support under the command of alexander hamilton, there was this great quote that thomas jefferson once said, john f. kennedy never have so much brilliance has been brought in. so much capability and intelligence brought since alexander hamilton set by himself for the treasury department. he was the one who got the government up and running. washington was a general who a general who came and office and organize this initially like a military command. cabinet officers, state

comeau what we would now call justice, treasury, he had the mall report to him, and he gave orders directly to them. they carry them out right away, and that structure was the one we basically had for much of our history and televising this other kind of government, i would say, this knew administrative state. >> host: and i want to get to that, but 1st we ought to give you as an example of some kind of agency misbehavior. i want to talk about a book written by chuck cooper. he actually hesitate. he knows all about it. a brilliant supreme court advocate. the reagan justice department. go back many years. what is operation choke point. >> this is a very disturbing program in the federal

government, but one that exemplified a lot of the problems that are rising in other places. this is an area where the federal government is trying to prevent access to banking by disfavored businesses, businesses that are perfectly legal, and he talks about this, but he focuses on payday lenders. people who will -- companies, small businesses who will give people in advance loan before the paycheck. >> i want to talk about payday lenders, but i want the viewers to know the list of these bailout organizations. they haven't listed right here. as to the messaging on this issue, the fdic then published a list of high-risk industries in which this -- disreputable merchants are to be found. mission sales, lottery sales

, coin dealers. ii represented a bunch of coin dealers before the irs. it was a regulatory issue. a nice store. they barely make a living. it is regulation requiring them to spend about $5. but firearm sales, gun dealers, pharmaceutical sales, tobacco sales command the payday loans. >> this is the disturbing thing about this and other areas of the state, there is no statute congress ever passed going after different businesses. congress businesses. congress could ban some of them out of existence, but they have not. >> purposefully allowing payday loans. >> generally the criminal law,, extinguish a line of

business unless it clearly says so. instead, administrators, the fdic engage with other agencies and ultimately the justice department reads a very vague law about protecting the reputation of the banking industry. >> what reputation risk was originally. >> the idea was you did not want banks listing the reputation a way that might harm the stability of the financial system, the whole idea is to protect the financial system. thanks start lending the industry's which are high-risk. i'm not sure. even if it is, the government through this interpretation that does not have grounding in whatever congress wanted to do says we can stop banks from regulating the industry's which we think have bad reputations like gun sales,

tobacco sales, illicit coin dealers. >> the depositor gets to that person and earns the bank circulation. >> by borrowing money. reputation is the standard. it gives the regulator's the freedom to pick and choose the people they don't like. that is the story, selecting certain individuals, groups, businesses, points of view for disfavored and almost prosecutorial treatment using the powers of government. >> tell the techniques that these banking people use. how do they squeeze the banks to go along? >> again, this is just like what is going on with areas i think the regulators prefer they never have to do anything formal. these the regulatory process of reviewing banks, having to give them the necessary approvals they need to do

there own business. they nudge them without having to formally pursue the bank. >> listen, if you don't get rid of these people have trouble. >> we might have to look at you again. >> difficulties moving. >> there is no formal action ever. the obama administration, and what they do is threatened to cut off of funds or something serious, more regulatory reviews, something expensive on businesses to coerce them, persuade them they would probably say, but course them and what they want them to do. >> so then we have the court and congress. who can fix it? those are the only two places. they have to go to the court which is what texas is doing on behalf of a group of

payday lenders. washington dc undue process ground. >> here we go. >> i have not done the reading yet. >> well, it's not included on the bad boy list. marijuana. my gosh. federal law, and it is not only not included on the list that the obama treasury department and 2014 issue guidance to enhance financial services from marijuana and salad. you can't make this up. so wouldn't it be an equal protection? >> it does show that prosecutorial discretion because the obama administration is not enforcing federal law for having marijuana in states like california and colorado

now where those days half, by state law, said marijuana usage is medicinally okay or recreationally okay, but federal law does not create such an exception. this is an example of this administration, criminal more -- this may seem strangely pro- marijuana legalization, and so since they favor that they are using operation choke.to get it agencies they don't like like gun sales of payday lenders and not after industries that actually are illegal but within the state favored which is marijuana use. >> this observation, whatever there right to congress they say payday lenders and pornography dealers, they lumpdealers, they lump them together. we are changing the structure within the financial system that allows this fraudulent businesses. he says comeau we had choking them out from a very

other need to survive. what is government doing in that kind of business? >> i agree. it goes the other agencies as well, government could prosecute them directly, but instead it is using the expense, the burdens, the demands of the regulatory state which regulates almost all businesses in the country of any size, using the threat of that,that, the threat of administrative action to coerce people to get its way, and i think it is not what the framers had in mind. ..

>> >> executive power really experienced during crisis. headwind they would pass the executive privilege would and shrink. but woodrow wilson is the intellectual father figure that we have today and saw the expansion in the agencies of government power during wartime to make it permanent to last beyond war that was the efficient government he is from germany where he came from the oppression system and the administration.

to be very influential political scientist before he was president but fdr made it permanent end to wilson's ideas to make it permanent and then to be supercharged by lbj with the great society programs. with the last version of the great expansion. >> they are all democrats. >> what were the republicans doing? now with the philosophy but eisenhower would pray to dixon because that worked

a.m. he gave us the epa. what were they doing all this tide to expand government? >> because they tried to make peace with a giant welfare state that fdr it lbj created by the president comes along end some of the theories have come back around by conservatives in the end because he wanted regulations to be lifted for the economy to grow faster but in order to do that he had to demand the other bridges defer to what they we're doing to give a free hand so the reagan

administration calls it the chevron doctor and so the court should defer to the agency so reagan could you regulate. >> host: let's talk about the chevron case in the '80s and the rate given bureaucracy with the people love the epa abided by his philosophy, had the regulations and said it is easier? then the bear but analysts say you cannot do that. sold them that goes to court. >> it is interesting the clean air act gives the epa the authority to issue regulations to make the air cleaner consistent with economic growth.

a --. so when i started to loosen some of the burdens to allow for faster economic growth to say you are disregarding the statue by deregulating. so the court would agree with the reagan administration to say we will up pulled the deregulatory rule because agencies are more expert than the court they have more scientific expertise the court said we should defer to the agency's their part of the elected three a challenge more responsible but the courts are not elected and we have our jobs for life so there is no accountability for policy decisions of this nature. from the early '80s the federal courts have fought

at the margins but generally will defer to the agency rules taken in this area where there is a large amount of power in. >> but the law is clear? it is not clear. you would think the most foldable place and to tell congress to get back. >> so it does not apply in the statutes and dsc in some high-profile cases where the courts are willing to say the most recent the cut -- most recent example with those individuals and don't have the exchange but generally most of the statutes with the securities

markets and the environment are ridiculous and if you think if that will do most of the work that is where they have the push back. >> what about congress for giving up power? i have not always observed people say i want this or that but the debate still look like you have this said that at the same time each side tries to write to it does and to read anything. >> during the reagan

years, for the most part it is partially congress this fall its fate would to its those of the different systems of represents a boon dash best lists and is suited to an adult to put the combats but they constantly make though all the time but now they stop the lot the key which was supposed to be the status quo now has to go through all the hoops to stand up and so it is complete and

send this back today half see if it is reasonable. >> struggle in the conservative world of jurisprudence and leg it as they have question to. >> so he is beginning to have his doubts. >> great to -- to was raised in dallas who but nixon and

endeavoring to put there is no doubt deal but registration with the big

premium was 2,002. but it and it was the provision 10 days to enact such to be flown for. >> was very constitutional under the free-speech clause

>> host: but then talk about teesixteen but with a huge expansion it used to be the ada you had a certain state of mind, mens rea, a state of mind you intended to carry out a crime. if you kill someone that they died because you have an accident, then in the law with his regulatory areas it is criminal law and it

doesn't matter just that the act resulted you will be held guilty of of a criminal act and that is another revelation it is a the system we started off with but a key underpinning. >> host: there is one other factor that is the doctrine. tell us about that. >> guest: is passed to be the criminal defense attorney f. favorite part. [laughter] the ideas that goes back there were supposed to be few and clear and we could understand but the role of all with moody's in match with cruel losses but do they clearly tell you what is a legal?

it is ambiguous or it isn't clear. the courts and even those things then should be counted as close issue anomalies' it to be expansive because they cut the idea we should. >> exactly. but just like justice scalia and justice thomas is that the addition applied to promote the island.

>> but he should have been proud of the descent. it is will somewhere he said the dependent counsel is unconstitutional eight / one but he said this is a wolf just like a wolf. [laughter] hand was so right that requires the interpreters to resolve it in favor of the defendant. but we have to do so to determine the normal

construction and and in but how to approach reading the vague statutes. i totally agree a makes no sense with criminal where the ada is not that the courts should defer to agencies but a moral values that to a process to acquire citizens with that ability. but it goes back to the point you raised earlier there are conservatives questioning their chevron was a good idea.

but before the court would even think of that. >> also just as prior is most on the other side and thinks of the a demonstrators but the agency and the executive branch and the government and everything with the efficient regulation. to say we should have that for everything they will make it of all.

>> host: maybe i will be influenced. [laughter] >> growing up in the washington d.c. projects started off fast nor would it is the 50 years of the house for those military spouses there were a lot to an end. >> and he didn't know where

he was doing? period that is one of thousands with the government is overreacting. this is something you should solve by common-sense you made of mistaken to sit --. [laughter] i'll like it when you tell it better. >> cry was is but it is

around the world with the plant that is in violation of another country's lot if you talk about the three men and women because that is fascinating. >> it is interesting and has to do if you can import certain kinds into the united states and this turned out to be illegal under the laws but this was according to the regulators illegal under american laws so basically of importing the wrong kind of seafood.

>> this is the other thing that pat are so many things to get government attention why is it sending its prosecutors just because and we get to face mankind. >> but if you have to buy a bank and then you use the

word did you are in violation. >> it isn't even clear if. >> so why does the government have used the power of criminal sanctions? but almost arbitrarily by the ways that are so against common sense to show the administrative states when it is routine.

>> what happened? >> here is a cold i am sure the government house to play him. [laughter] >> we got the wood back the analysis though one ingredient to leave you scratching your head. >>, dean pharmacies. day you know, what they are? >> no, no, no. it is an important niche so

we need it for the old pharmacy. of very important but with the compound in pharmacy he said that i took them for her friend.

>> said he a cave in to take documents. >> that is one reason you have this and not the patient. as a result is a controlled substance like me. bettencourt thinks they will give them back the leases. this is a problem but we will work it out and we were happy with that. no go powless sandy will go to the administrative hearing.

>> after the hearing said jed had not ruled because administrative judges are like that lot. >> i just finished a quartet the supreme court about this. >> and guess what? the client got their license back. we said we will file it next week. >> so it goes back to the original famous case of marbury various matters and where -- madison and but it is an order by the court to given to the judge that when did he realize you were in the right in the we're

giving you a hard time as we sought to slow things down without formally doing anything in this case there were supposed to be clear and they stated every day you don't get a license like that. >> but many people don't have the fortitude and the resources to fight it in court they say please tell me whenever we have to do to keep my business going so there is dozens of cases the people that never see the light of day that suffer and that is a great example the you cannot just carry out. and that doesn't fit the

priorities of this government. >> forgot to mention. >> but then if you have a conservative judge? but it was said he was taken textualist the time may now like us -- the flag byte it is sacred rule case that you

have to examinations but we wish you put up shields in front of people will you hinge on but with criminal law with the case where the jury has to be able to make its decision and all facts dealing with the conviction for crime. judges cannot do that and it has the effect to potentially but we have to

try because the judges are getting to a fault. and i don't know what you think about apple but justice scalia and conservatives are much more concerned about privacy rights that people might tad expected. in the two cases i would point to is the police officer with the heat detection device to find marijuana.

the dead and know-how they would come now with the apple case. concede justice bill yet to go to of the apple side but they have a better argument.

>> you are not too far off but. >> this would be better handled on another set of facts. >> this is not to an agency remember. to say i am not the error. des lecter just suspend deportation with the executive order?

>> i see that two dozen times. but that others think we will have a better send it to. but to president obama has the plan made read after the elections but this is a

different kind of case is the president at the top end constitutional legacy may not be what you wanted but it has the major effected of superpower and when he disagrees.

>> cavity people's day or go or the criteria is the legal term not deportation. obama said i don't agree with the statute as written dash bush but to say i will achieve this by saying there want more people in the country so i will not remove dead even president reagan who was the most expansive use he never went that far. but that is the unprecedented a fact.

>> you are in the 34% bracket? the about what presidents can do. they cannot rewrite the law of u.s. >> but a net immigration area the president has gone out on a limb it would be at the of practice law.

>> dan did not write to doubt in a formal order but they port -- put more resources and also said those could be released but i would tell them and the child is american in the heart is in san.

>> no exceptions. >> wish people of both classes were allowed to stay but it is of the president's job to decide you gets to state the country. >> thinking of obama 10 years from now.

but the courts did not like that. >> it is time to turn over the electronic surveillance. i thought. >> but in the face of foreign threats and congress that they could not anticipate. the purpose is into for fares because congress can write and the states are there but you can write the laws to participate but his

life has been turned upside down. you can see the president withdraw even more even defended against u.n. agencies but with domestic affairs he uses all that power that they wanted the president to have keeps it on domestic matters and the administration is pursuing all these little people where common sense should prevail but he would rather have a rate of the tory state. and know how that gets turned around. >> that is sure next book. [laughter]

>> i enjoyed your book $5 in the pork chops in which. adjusted terms to open its up what is that about? >> the