[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> tonight on c-span2, a congressional hearing on alengthalengtleged misconduct by john holocaust -- john koskinen. and then an update from the pentagon for the u.s. strategy for combating isis. >> house oversight committee chair representative jason chaffetz testified on the alleged misconduct of irs commissioner john koskinen regarding the investigation of

the irs targeting of political groups. in october, chaffetz introduced legislation to impeach koskinen. >> without objection the chair is authorized to declare recess of the committee at any time. we welcome everyone to the hearing on examining allegations of misconduct on irs commissioner john koskinen part one. i begin with myself. the constitution sets forth a system of checks and balances and grants each branch of government tools to shake sure no one gets too much power. the power to write the laws, power of the purse, impeachment power and other powers. they allow congress to expert oversight over branches including rooting up corruption, fraud and abuse by government

officials and taking further disciplinary action on behalf of the american people when warranted. the duty to serve as a check on the other branches including against corruption and abuse is a solemn one and congress does not and must not take this responsibility lightly. that is why this committee scheduled a hearing today. in 2013, the american people first learned their own government had been singling out conservative groups as they applied for tax exempt status. it was nothing short of shocking and a plan to silence the voice of groups of conservative groups across the nation resulting in lengthy paperwork requirements, overly burdensome requests and long delays in their applications.

lois learner stepped down from her position in the wake of the news but allegations remain. the allegations against koskinen are serious and include the following. on his watch, volumes of information crucial to the investigation into the irs' tarsting scandal were destroyed. before they were destroyed, congressional demands, including subpoenas, went unanswered. koskinen provided misleading testimony before the house oversight and government reform committee concerning irs efforts to provide information to congress. these are very serious allegati allegations of misconduct and this committee has taken these allegations seriously. over the past several months, this committee has poured through thousands of pages of information produced by the investigation in this matter resulting in isthe hearing that

gives the house oversight and government reform committee the opportunity to formally present its findings and evidences to the member of the committee. we will hear from representative chaffetz and desantos. they will have ten minutes to discuss the evidence their committee investigation has uncuru uncovered. chairman chaffetz will present a video as well. is worth noting commissioner koskinen was invited to the hearing but denieded the invitation. following the opening testimony each member will have five minutes of questions. >> thank you, chairman, goodlatte.

before beginning my statement, i ask consent to enter the statements of irs commissioner john andrew koskinen and the gentlemen from maryland, ranking member cummings. >> i reserve the right to object. >> the gentlemen -- >> i object. >> i wish to be recognized >> objection is noted. >> if the gentlemen would yield? >> point of inquiry related to my objection. the witness was invited to come and delivered a self-serving written statement telling us he respects the committee but he is refusing to be here for his own government inquiry. on what bases would we allow unsworn testimony for what should have been a sworn witness under the penalty of perjury?

>> may i? >> of course. >> may i tell my colleague that first of all, the gentlemen, who is the subject of this, this is not an impeachment inquiry. >> it is an inquiry in the recommendation for impeachment. >> the title of the hearing is examining the allegations of misconduct against irs commissioner john koskinen part i. >> i appreciate that. but he is in fact the subject of a referral from another committee with specificity and was called as a witness who have an opportunity under oath to clear that up. i guess my question is where would we normally accept from a witness who declined an unsworn

statement, one that would be self-serving, and ranking member conyers, this is lois learner again. this seems to be inappropriate from a witness who has declined being here. obviously, this question is that the allegation of misconduct and it is pursuant from a serious referral. >> absolutely. i don't choral with that. all i am saying, given the customary two weeks notice, this came back from china last week. i am not making excuses for his

absence. all i am saying is that since he is not here, and he has a statement, i would like to put it in the record and if you think that is something that he doesn't deserve, i am bound by the statement to the record and it will be placed with a provision he declined and the letter has to be taken as not witness evidence and self serving of being here. i don't want it to be seen as an opening statement.

this written statement is -- should not have the same credibility. >> the gentlemen has the right to object. the gentlemen can ask consent to for the record. >> we would ask that the pairing could be placed in the record as the wishes of the ranking member. >> for what purpose does the gentlemen seek recognition? >> mr. chairman, i object to the consent that john koskinen's statement be put in the record. however the ranking member asked unanimous consent to have the statement of mr. cummings in the record. i do not object to that being part of the record.

only the statement of the irs commissioner without provisions of what should be attached. >> ranking member cummings' statement will be part of the record. there is objection to placing the written word of koskinen in the record and it will not be placed in the record. if there are further discussions regarding what conditions it might be part of the record the chair will be happy to entertain that. the gentlemen may continue with his opening statement. >> thank you. in the history of our problem,

the house of representatives has voted to impeach a federal official only 19 times. as a matter of note, i voted in favor of five of them. i drafted them with then senator nixon and joined with democrats and republicans to send three of those articles to the house floor. the lessons i draw from these experiences are hard earned. to begin with the power of impeachment is a solemn responsibility entrusted to the house of representatives by the

constitution and to this committee by our peers. the formal impeachment process is not to be rushed into for short-term political gain. before we can improve any such resolution it is our responsibility to improve the allegations beyond a reasonable doubt. i suspect that is why this hearing is titled the way it is and moving in that direction. it is our responsibility to prove underlying allegations of

misconduct with the great seriousness and i think beyond a reasonable doubt. once the house authorizes us to so, we must review the efrdz even it has been analyzed. we can only address allegations supported by the record. finally a successful process must transcend party lines. the framers of the constitution knew this. article i of the constitution requires two thirds of the senate to convict on any article

suggesting impeachment. many in the public know this, too. when this committee comes together and decides to remove someone from office we take the job seriously. when a vote like this is divided on party lines as it was in my one occasion for the service on the committee, we undermine our credibility and make it all but impossible to secure con vision in the senate. we are here because a small group of members want us to take

up house resolution 494, a resolution to impeach irs commissioner john koskinen. this resolution fails by every measure i have seen. it has no chance of survibeing in the senate. commissioner koskinen, from what i can see, this took months

after the so-called targeting scandal concluded. we are here today to consider the allegations that the commissioner deliberately misled congress as a part of those efforts. the claim is not that we disagree with the decisions or we question the speed which the agency provided answers.

an investigation was made of these allegations and it was concluded, i quote, no evidence was shown any irs employees were directed to hide or destroy information from congress, the department of justice, or the inspector general end quotation marks. in addition, career investigators at the department of justice also looked into these claims. they also found, and i quote again, no evidence that any official involved in the handling of the tax exempt applications, or irs' leaders p

leadership. we are doing our best to make sure this measure never reaches the floor of the house as speak boehner was doing before hand. it is not a surprise many in the republican conference rehabilitation critical of the tactic -- has been -- of this hearing. the representative from the subcommittee on board said this hearing is a waste of time. senator hatch, the chairman of the sen ate finance committee

said there is no interest of impeachment where a two thirds vote would be required for conviction. we can have disagreements with him senator hatch said but it doesn't mean there is an impeachable offense and added for the most part he has been cooperative with us. to summarize, the proposed articles have been debunked. the investigation itself by independent investigators. the resolution faces stiff bipartisan opposition in the house, and even worse odds in the united states senate. they are pressures view working days left in this congress.

an additional measure, would allow this more time >> we welcome our distinguished witnesses today. we will swear you in. do you swear that the testimony

you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god? thank you very much. let the record reflect both witnesses responded in the affirmative. the first witness is the honorable jason chaffetz. representing the third district of utah he is a member of the court property and internet and the subcommittee on crime, terrorism, homeland and investigations. since 2015, mr. chafrt was chairman of the house and government oversight. representative desantos is next up. he is the chairman of the oversight committee's national subcommittee and the vice chairman of the subcommittee on

the constitution and civil justice. welcome to you both. your written testimony will be entered into the record and i ask each of you summarize your testimony in the time you are allotted. >> thank you. i appreciate you holding this hearing. ranking member conyers, i note our good relationship. through this good work, and

tenacious approach to this, it was an important step, and it would not be here today quite frankly without the good work and leadership of darryl isa. this is really a simple case. when congress asks you a question you are expected to give a truthful answer. when congress issues a subpoena compliance is not optional. if you are expected to reproduce to materials you have to do so. the irs target scandal unamerican. the first amendment rights of citizens were trampled upon. from my perspective, he didn't fix the problem.

he made it worse. there have been numerous hearings, letters and subpoenas issued by a variety of committees. the irs is no stranger to a subpoena or summons. they know how this work. they issue about 66,000 summons and subpoenas per year and they have since 2010. failure to obey an irs summons is a criminal violation under 26 us temperatured section 7210 and carries a $1,000 fine and a year in prison. they do prosecute. they prevailed in 95% of the cases. compliance with the subpoena is not optional. providing false testimony before congress is a crime. mr. koskinen provided false testimony and failed to comply

with the subpoena. he could have prevented evidence from being destroyed but didn't and didn't tell the truth. the case before us is about mr. koskinen and what he did, and didn't do, which deprived the american people of understanding what went wrong with their government. it also prevents us, congress, from fully fixing the problem and holding people accountable. there couldn't be full accou accountability because the evidence was destroyed on mr. koskinen's watch. the remedy in the constitution impeachment. it a remedy for co-equal voice. the senate gives consent on confirming appointments. our founders in the constitution give us the opportunity to remove somebody if they are not serving the best interest of the

united states of america. those with the safety valve to pull people out is impeachment. i think we must stand up for ourselves. i will show a video to give background. it is about ten minutes and we will get into the specifics of where i think mr. koskinen lied. >> from the woman at the center of the irs scandal. >> scandal involving irs targeting groups. where is lois learner. >> let the record indicate the witness did answer tin the aff m affirm. >> the irs and lois learner? what does it look like all pieced together? in 2013, the irs admitted to the selective intentional targeting of american taxpayers based on

their political beliefs. this is lois learner. she was the irs employee with the most knowledge of the targeting but when called to testify refused. congress had to obtain and review documents and an obstruction and destruction of evidence followed by the irs which left the american people with no real answers to why their first amendment rights were violated. with roomers of targeting percolating in june of 2011, waz and means chairman dave camp sent the first letter to the irs related to the allegations of the irs' mistreatment of conservative groups. nine months later in march of 2012 chairman darryl isa and jim jordan of the house oversight committee send a letter to the irs requesting information. in may of 2013, the irs admitted

to target and another letter is sent. the president acknowledges wrongdoing and pledges cooperation. >> it is not excusable and americans have a right to be angry. our administration has to be sure we are working hand and hand with congress to get this fixed. >> by august the oversight committee issued their first supeeny and sent a letter to the treasury secretary reminding him of the obligation to preserve the e-mails. after condemning the target, president obama states in a 2014 interview there is not a smidge of corruption. >> not even mass corruption or a smidge. >> all of these investigations are still open. even the investigation he ordered was not complete. how did the president arrive at this conclusion? what did he become aware of in

those nine months? irs commissioner koskinen appears before multiple congressional panels promising to deliver the e-mails >> are you going to provide the documents for lois lerner that were subpoenaed? >> yes, we are working hard to get you the lerner e-mails. >> are you sure? >> there is thousands of pages. and in june he tells lerner they cannot be recovered. >> was it physically destroyed? >> what could have happened for the commissioner to make such a

statement? >> remember the first letter from chairman camp to the irs in june of 2011, coincidentally lerner's hard drive crashes eight days later. what are the odds? her hard drive crashing within a week of inquiry defies all odds. in april of 2013, a month before admitting to the targeting, lerner reminds colleagues to be cautious about what we say in e-mail and asks if the internal messaging system is archived and when told know nerner says no. ...

a gap in the list learners e-mails. thousands of e-mails are missing from around the critical period in the targeting of 2011. remember her hard drive crash. that is the need to collect backup tapes that might contain relevant timeframes. due to the subpoena from congress ordering the preservation of documents but on march 4, 2014, 4 to 22 backup tapes containing e-mails from the relevant timeframe are destroyed. this is 30 days after realizing there's a gap of eight months after the nondestructive order

and the subpoena. how do something like this happen? the i.d. testified is truly an unbelievable set of circumstances. >> how would a preservation order and the subpoena be destroyed board and 22 pages? >> it's an unbelievable set of circumstances that would allow that to happen. >> wasn't commissioner koskinen assuring members of the irs would turn over all e-mails? to the commissioner intentionally mislead congress? testimonies adjust the irs knew that lois lerner's immelt had been destroyed at the time of the commissioners march testimony pyramid probably opening investigations? besides covers in the gog -- the ij was investigating the they started looking into lois learners e-mails in june of 2014. here's their story. in june of 2014, the ig opened its investigations into missing lois lerner e-mails. commissioner koskinen confirmed that lois learners e-mails cannot be recovered and

describes in great think the irs is trying to find them. >> we spent as i noted the last $18 million responding. we have had over 250 employees at various times get involved and over 120,000 hours devoted to it. >> we have gone to great lengths and retrace the process for producing or e-mail twice just to make sure that none e-mail was missing. we understand the importance of this investigation. we have gone to great lengths and a significant amount of money kind of made sure there is no e-mail that is required that has not been produced. >> meanwhile the ig is looking for backup teams pay just 15 days into their best occasion the ig drives one and a half hours to an irs facility in west virginia and ask for backup tapes used to backup lois learners e-mail accounts. they are handed 744 tapes. >> we have identified the 744 tapes that meet this criteria to

session of all the identified 744 tapes. >> in attendance at no one asked for the tapes that they had been there all along. >> the irs and testimony letter stated that a left and i quote no stone unturned end quote end quote to recovered e-mails. was that true? >> we were able to uncover enough so it appears that statement was not true. >> july 2014 irs testified that quote confirmed the e-mails were unrecoverable end quote. given recoverable data existed on the tapes was that statement true? >> it would not appear to be true. and i quote no way" to be recovered. is that true? that would not appear to be true. >> we have established here today multiple incidents where the irs did not tell the truth. throughout the course of investigation which went into the summer of 2015, the ig recovered 1000 unique e-mails that were never turned over by the irs.

>> what did they do at these e-mails? >> the best we can determine through the investigation they simply didn't look for those so the over 1000 e-mails we found in the backup tapes we found them because we look for them. >> they were under subpoena, what a coincidence. >> remember those 422 tapes destroyed after the irs knew they were missing e-mails and after the nondescript order was in place and eight months after the subpoena, it doesn't been properly preserved an additional 24,000 e-mails may have been recovered and maybe there would be answers. but the american people will never know because the irs didn't do its job of preserving information the way was obligated to do. the ig also concluded in its investigations at the irs neglected beyond lois lerner's hard drive for e-mails. >> comedy potential sources existed for the irs? >> we have leave there were six. the hard drive would have been the source blackberry backup tape server drives the backup tapes for the server drives and

finally the loaner laptops. >> how many of the sixth of the irs search? >> we are not aware. >> they look for backup tapes. they didn't look at her blackberry. they didn't look at the server or backup server or the loaner laptops so what great links today really go to? >> on the advice of my counsel i respectfully exercise my fifth amendment right and declined to answer that question. >> the bottom line i arrested and fulfill its legal operation to respond to congress. they didn't preserve information. they didn't try to find information. they misled congress for years. their failings at the american people in the dark about how their first amendment rights were trampled upon. there must be accountability. >> mr. chairman thank you for allowing us to show that video. i want to drill down a little bit further on mr. koskinen's customized essays on the statements made to congress in june and july of 2014 and when

he came to explain why the irs wouldn't be able to produce thousands of lois lerner's e-mails at that point a subpoena had been in place since august of 2013. the subpoena was reissued to mr. koskinen after he was confirmed so by then the subpoena had had his name on it for more than five months. on february 2nd, 2014 super bowl sunday, kate duvall realized there was a problem with ms. lerner's e-mails and some of them are missing from the irs production to congress. ms. duvall was counseled to the commissioner at the time and basically managing the irs production to congress. the next day on february 3 ms. duvall told her colleagues at the irs about the problems she had found. she told the ig people, she talked of the people in the office of chief counsel, she talked to the deputy associate chief counsel thomas kaine and by the next day february 4, scan it figured out that lois lerner's hard drive had crashed back in 2011 and that was why many of her e-mails were missing

the irs knew in early february that there was a problem with ms. lerner's e-mails and mr. koskinen testified that he knew in february that this is his quote on july 23, 2014 hearing quote what i was advised anew in february was that when you look at these e-mails that have already been provided to the committee and other investigations and instead of looking at them by search terms looked at them by date was clear there were fewer e-mails than than that. matthew 20 lebanon subsequently. there was also island was told there had there had been a problem with ms. lerner's computer. the question is what did mr. koskinen under subpoena do about it? after all he had the subpoena. he just learned the most crucial evidence covered by the subpoena was missing so you'd expect him to spring into action but let's start with what he did not do. according to the treasury inspector general he failed to look in five of the six places ms. lerner's e-mails could exist in the backup tapes, her blackberry, the server, the

backup server and the loaner laptop. in fact the irs barely looked for missing e-mails at all according to take that. let's talk about what mr. koskinen did do. in aprilis agency notified the treasury department and the white house that ms. lerner's e-mails were missing and he waited and he waited some more until june when the irs levy told congress eye bearing a couple of sentences in the fifth age of an attachment to the letter to the finance committee on june 13, 2014. that triggered a theory -- a flurry of hearings to congress and mr. koskinen came up and testified to explain what he said and then he lied. we have three quotes i want to share with you on many. look what he told us on june 20 of 2014. seven days after family telling congress after the start of

investigation every e-mail has been preserved nothing has been lost, nothing has been destroyed that's not true. the investigation began in may of 2012. inspector general found the irs destroyed evidence, 422 backup tapes that contained as many as 24,000 e-mails to and from ms. lerner and that happened on march 4 of 2014 which was discovered after they discovered there was a problem. and the second quote if i could, this is on the same day june 20, 2014 mr. koskinen testified before congress quote we confirm backup tapes from 2011 no longer existed end quote. that wasn't true either. the backup tapes were intact until march 4 of 2014, almost two years after the congressional investigations began and nearly one month after

the irs knew there was a problem with lois lerner's e-mails. at best this is gross negligence. and the third quote, to me this is one of the most troubling. this is july 23rd, another full month afterwards, july 23 of 2014. he was asked what was meant by the word confirmed. he said confirmed mean somebody went back and looked and made sure that in fact any backup tapes that existed have been recycled end quote. that was completely and totally false. nobody at the irs went back and confirmed the tapes have been destroyed take inspector general interviewed the people who were responsible and they said that nobody had ever asked for the backup tapes. in fact all told inspector general 15 day start to finish to find these and they did recover 1000 e-mails. >> thanks, you can take that down. >> if they had guns after learning some of mrs. lerner's

tapes are missing they could have found the backup tapes before they were destroyed. we know this because again inspector general, took them 15 days. the deputy inspector for investigations at tayga summed it up by testifying quote the best we can determine through the investigation, they just simply didn't look for those e-mails so for the over 1000 e-mails we found on the backup tapes we found them because we looked for them and quote. we are here today because mr. koskinen provided false testimony. he failed to comply with a duly issued subpoena and we knew there was a problem he failed to properly inform congress in a timely manner. fact i would argue he actively misled congress. nor has mr. koskinen never made an attempt to clarify or made any prior statements. he continues to stand by all of the statements. they are not true.

he said i stand by ready with regard to any action deemed appropriate but i notice he didn't show up at hearing today even though he was invited in for him to say later on page four i testified truthfully and to the best of my knowledge and answering questions the search for production of e-mails related to investigation he still doesn't get it because that's not true. >> mr. chairman. >> regular order, sir. >> that was my concluding comment. >> the chair thanks the chairman of the oversight and government reform committee and is now pleased to recognize and welcome congressman desantis. >> yankee mr. chairman ranking member conyers. although i did notice the time the first exposure i had to the irs occurred long before that day in may of 2013 when lois lerner publicly revealed the existence of improper targeting by the irs, she did this by

planning to question an illegal congress was a clear indication that the irs had improperly vetted american citizens who were doing nothing more than seeking their first amendment right once this news broke i immediately got back to the previous year. i was running for office for the first time and it's a customary campaign i made a point to speak to as many groups as i could find. in one instance the leaders of one group dedicated to educating fellow americans on the institutional government or -- grew apprehensive am i showed up to speak. the candidate for office explain my speaking before the group cause problems for the irs and agency they felt mistreated their group are refusing to grant can -- tax-exempt status. it seems to me these folks are being paranoid. why would iris care about a small group seeking tax-exempt status? it turns status? it turns out my reaction was run and there was good reason to be concerned about the behavior of the irs. i've always thought about that as we have done this investigation.

as a member of the oversight committee adjourned my colleagues in seeking to ascertain the truth about the conduct of the irs and its employees like lois lerner. chairman chaffetz has done a good to job outlining the stand under irs under commissioner koskinen has stonewalled attempts to find out the truth about misconduct of the irs. koskinen pledge to be transferring an alert congress and american people about problems with the investigation as soon as he knew about them and he failed to alert the congress about the gap in ms. lerner's e-mails performance. koskinen testified every e-mail had been preserved since the start of the investigation and the irs destroyed over 400 backup tapes containing as many as 24,000 of lois lerner's e-mails and march of 2014 through these e-mails were the subject of an internal preservation order and to congressional subpoenas. koskinen testified the backup tapes from 2011 had been recycled or soon to normal irs policy the backup tapes were

destroyed until march of 2014 and moreover the inspector general was able by doing a cursory investigation to identify some backup tapes that have not been recycled. koskinen testified the irs had gone to great links to make sure that all e-mails were produced but as the chairman pointed out he failed to look at lerner's mobile device the e-mail server backup server loaner laptops and irs backup tapes all of which were examined by the inspector general so this matter there's no dispute about the fact the irs destroyed up to 24,000 of lois lerner's e-mails commissioner koskinen testified. they are still to produce all the e-mails in his possession as well as feeling due to oceans by not looking in obvious places for lerner's e-mails. this is cut and dried so it's a false statement and dereliction of duty represents an affront to the authority of his house. the american people had a right to get the facts regarding the irs target. the irs had a duty to comply with congressional investigation

and instead the irs stonewalled us thousands of females have been destroyed. the american people may very well never get the entire truth as it relates to the scandal. it would be unthinkable for a taxpayer to treat an irs audit the way the irs has treated the congressional investigation. the taxpayer would be in a world of hurt. the taxpayer made false statements to the irs in response to investigation is safe to say the taxpayer would not get away with it. it's a good bet the investigation will not end. that which is applied to the taxpayers and the commissioner charged with outing. not a single individuals and held accountable anyway for what

happened with the irs and commissioner koskinen can get away with this con misconduct another branch agencies have a blueprint of how to stymie congress would conduct legitimate oversight this will further erode the power of the congress which is arguably at its historical nadir. the constitution contains mechanisms which can be used as checks abuses by civil officers of the executive branch. we in this body should use them as a matter of fairness to the american people accountability for the executive ranch and self-respect of this institution. i thank the chairman. >> the chair thanks the gentleman. we will map proceed in the five-minute rule for questions is by witnesses and i recognize myself. >> a reported investigation by the treasury inspector general for tigta concluded in his 2015 report as follows in that quote.

responsible for handling and disposing of e-mail backup media end quote. my understanding is that commissioner koskinen was brought in, appointed commissioner for the purpose of restoring the credibility of the irs following this horrific scandal, and part of restoring that credibility would be coming clean, making sure that the investigation is conducted by various committees here in the house of representatives where response to properly with the information they requested and that in doing so one would follow all the evidence within one's organization that he is now the head of to find where that might go and then send

people there and say what do you have? according to the evidence that you brought forward today that was never done so i would like to hear from each of you your understanding that commissioner koskinen is responsible. >> thank you. he has the duty and obligation, although legal obligation under its subpoena to comply with that subpoena and do everything he can in his power to make sure he's doing that. he testified before multiple committees and multiple times in addition to i believe letters saying that he was making every effort that he spent $18 million >> did he ever break that down for you? did he ever say i did this and i did this and i did this and we spent the money for this andd we spent the money for this and this and this? >> we can't find nor can tigta

find proactive evidence that the commissioner did anything proactively to actually recover those tapes from the source of which they were destroyed. it took the inspector, guess the comparison is the inspector general took him start to finish 15 days to find them and the commissioner had years and millions of dollars in resources he didn't ask for the basic source. >> what really does it for me as you have these backup tapes in west virginia and the inspector general testified about what he did. >> he got this for an intro to west virginia and he asked for the backup tapes. what does it cost for gas to get to west virginia and back, 50 bucks? he goes there and is able to recover some of the tapes and of course others were destroyed but the people at the backup tape facilities have the irs never even requested any of the backup

tapes so i think that says a lot about his leadership and it shows it undercuts the claim that they went to great length to get the information. >> very specifically with regard to that facility to further quote from a tigta report although they existed until march of 2014 the backup tapes in ms. lerner's details were changed and the server hard drives another santa responsibility to comply with chief technology officers and 2013 imo directives to preserve electronic rack up and the employees who destroy the backup tapes on arch of 2014 misinterpreted the directive. as you understand it he was responsible for making sure irs employees understood that may 23 directive. >> the commissioner of the irs. the two commission to subpoena. >> mr. de santos.

>> i recognize the gentleman from michigan mr. conyers. >> may i thank my two colleagues for their testimony and their concern about this matter? is there any way mr. chaffetz that we can determine who was on the tape that you received consent to play for 10 minutes? >> i'm sorry the question who was on the tape? >> yeah, who was the woman on the tape that was interpreting it? >> a staff number for the oversight and government reform committee. do you mean the voiceover? >> yes. >> she was a staff person for the oversight committee.

>> well, i didn't know that before just now and i'm sorry, don't want to raise anymore objections that have already been raised this morning but it seems a little bit unusual that this was a tape that you didn't identify who it was before it started playing. so what i'm concerned with is are we talking about issues in the irs which is under the usual criticism and in these recent circumstances even more than

normal criticism than they usually receive? are we talking about, we don't like the way they are doing business and we think that they have made some mistakes and they may have made misstatements or the prison commissioner have made statements that should be be -- we should be questioning or challenging as we normally do in this committee and that seems to me to be the just of the comments that i have received from my too learned colleagues on the committee that have testified here today. we don't like what happened.

>> can i -- can i? the first part it's important to understand the context of why these e-mails are so important because the targeting of americans, the suppression of their first amendment rights is something i know in a bipartisan way we sing -- think very seriously. the impeachment goes solely to mr. koskinen did and did not do when he was under subpoena and he provided, there was a lot of gross negligence. there were things that he should have done that he could have done,. >> is gross negligence and impeachable offense? >> i think that is part of that, yes i do. in 1974 the house judiciary committee came up with a report and it talks about the standards by which an impeachable should be held in a happen to concur with that. >> i have made, haven't recalled

it but i was for that. >> you were the only one. >> that's right. >> i was seven. i was playing soccer. >> well your excuse for not knowing about it until much later but the whole idea of one, 19 impeachment hearings have been held in almost a couple hundred years. is this being a little heavy handed about this matter? i probably disagree with some of the irs commissioners views and conduct themselves but that we are examining allegations of

misconduct against the irs commissioner and afield if we are talking about another hearing on this same subject, it seems to me a little bit overbroad and i think we ought to move a little bit more carefully on this. i'm going to have to examine all of the statements here today. and it seems to me we really ought move with a little more discretion. there have been statements have hearsay of allegations whether they are proven or whether they

are provable or not i just don't know and i'm trying to find out and i give you the benefit of the doubt because your passion and the great work you have done on it since you were seven in this area. >> i can understand and respect that we may disagree on the remedy but i think what we would find is in fact we were lied to in congress. we were misledn congress that there was gross negligence, there was a duty and obligation that the irs as much as anybody with 60,000 subpoenas and summons for a year they know how this works and that i think we can come to an agreement on. >> i agree with you that we ought to look at these much more carefully. it's sort of hard at this point

for me to accept them or to say that they are probably right or mistakes were made. i'm sure they were made, but there seems to be an anti-irs commissioner environment here that makes it very difficult for me to go forward without an investigation of all that has been said this morning. i thank the gentleman. >> the chair thanks the german recognizes the gentleman from california mr. issa for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman. chairman chaffetz remember the 2007 staff report.

i would have said that the place in the record. >> without objection will be made part of the record. >> april 7, 2014 extensive documentation about the not cover-up but what we have are discovered and in june 20, 2014 since the start of this investigation every e-mail has been preserved. that's a quote under oath by the commission, correct? >> yes. >> you and i are not lawyers so we will tax each other on the constitutional question. according to wikipedia at least the definition of high crimes and misdemeanors constitution says it covers allegations of ms. conduct particularly of officials such as perjury of oath, abuse of authority bribery intimidation this use of assets, failure to supervise dereliction

of duties, conduct unbecoming refusal to obey a lawful order/subpoena so i want to go through the last several there. is it your understanding that high crimes and misdemeanors include failure to supervise, dereliction of duty, conduct unbecoming, refusal to obey lawful order? >> yes. >> under your chairmanship in my chairmanship did we issue subpoenas that were in fact not obeyed? >> as august of 2013 and february 14 of 2014. >> just before leaving office they issued a december 23, 2014 staff report. i've asked that be placed in the record. >> without objection that will be made part of the record paid. >> at that time had we as a committee already wreck ignites that there had been failure to preserve and the failure to obey the subpoena under lawful order. have we determined had merely

figured that the commissioner and his political appointed subordinates have failed to supervise them are guilty of dereliction of duty? in july of last year didn't you call on the commissioner to resign? >> yes. >> and the ranking member aptly mentioned that we have only had 19 impeachment in the history of this great republic and he had participated in many of them but the history of impeachment, haven't we threatened impeachment or called on the resignation of his cabinet and subcabinet officers hundreds and hundreds of times on judges, hundreds of hundreds of times and haven't they been fired or quit? >> that's happened many times. >> you are here today because almost a year ago after multiple

very lengthy documents, after millions of dollars and countless thousands of hours you have determined that one, they had targeted conservatives who they believe to be irs and the commissioner had come in and he has been guilty of failure to properly supervise giving a statements that he he knew were false or he was too lazy and too negligent to verify? >> yes. >> if i understand correctly you are here because you have exhausted other -- remedies. >> providing false testament to congress and congress complaining about the lack of an action executive branch the founders gave us tools and they gave us tools to defend ourselves and take care of ourselves and to provide a consequence. >> mr. chairman, are you familiar with the criminal referral by the ways & means committee of close learner? under that as i understand the

law said the u.s. attorney for the district of columbia shall present to a grand jury those criminal articles against lois lerner. what happened to those? >> there was no criminal referral. 10 months of reviews they decided not to present those to the grand jury. >> even though the ways & means committee under statute had delivered a document that ordered the u.s. attorney to form an act -- perform an act under this president they chose to not obey that law come is it that correct? >> that's my understanding. >> if you were two similarly referred the irs commissioner specifically for his false statements and if you found it for criminal purposes you would expect the same thing to have been that it would not be presented? >> perhaps in different members have different views on this. i look at this as the remedy that the founders gave us. that hasn't an exercise in a while but that is the tool that they gave us. >> and you were here today just

after the general accountability office at nonpartisan part of congress found the conservative groups are still being targeted as we speak. is that correct? >> that is correct and in fact that quote could organizations examine an unfair manner and ago some say based on an organization's religious political and other views. >> commissioner koskinen did not resolve a problem and it continues today in based on the latest comments he doesn't think he has misspoken in any way shape or form. >> you are here today because you have exhausted the remedies and because the remedy for someone who has lost the confidence of congress lost the confidence of the american people fail to fix the problem after more than two years or if you will failure to supervise dereliction of duty conduct unbecoming in a refusal of lawful orders. that is why you are here come is that? >> it is pretty produced important to note that most members are run is we believe that when president steps down

that the commissioner would actually do that as well. that's not true. when he was confirmed in december of 2013, the commission , the commissioner continues until november 2017 so the remedy is i think urgent. we have 90,000 hard-working people at the irs but they are mismanaged and they are being led by someone who is lying to congress. >> final question, kate duvall discovered on super bowl sunday more than a month for the documents or the tapes were destroyed that they have this gap. was she not confirmed but a political appointee, and appointed directly of this commissioner? >> yes, she was. >> i thank the chairman and i yield back. >> the chair thanks the gentleman and recognizes the gentlelady from texas, ms. jackson-lee for five minutes. >> i think that colleagues for their presentation in their

service to this nation. i hold the responsibility however of the judiciary committee sack was thanked and a great moment in great responsibility. they are the protectors of the constitution and as the authority given to us, and the house having the sole authority to impeach, though i know very clearly that this is not an impeachment hearing i'd take the responsibility very seriously. mr. conyers let me say i associate myself with your line of reasoning and i promise not to hold your wisdom experience in legal scholar against you but i thank you so very much for all that you have offered to us. bad behavior, inappropriate answering of questions, to my very fine witnesses would be

grounds for being in contempt of congress and any other admonition that we want to give. i hope to points that you have made and that is that there must be a relationship between witnesses from the administration no matter which administration does and the congress of forthrightness. i also hold to the point that the first amendment freedom of speech and thought are again very high callings of this nation. probably why so many are trying to immigrate to this nation because of the freedom that we give. i also think it's the responsibility of congress to be factual. that may. this letter to you something from the department of justice recently. that is in collaboration with the fbi and inspector general administration the department's criminal and civil rights division conducted exhaustive probes and by the way the

$20 million spent in the 60,000 hours. we conducted more than 100 witness interviews, by the irs collected more than 1 million pages of irs documents analyzed almost 500 tax exemption applications examined the role and the culpability of scores of virus employees and took a civil rights administration of obstruction statute. our investigation uncovered substantial evidence of mismanagement poor judgment leading to the belief by many applicants direst the senate viewpoint that poor management is not a crime and we found no evidence of irs acted in inappropriate motives for criminal prosecution. we also found no evidence of any official involved in the handling of a tax-exempt application attempting to obstruct justice. based on the evidence of our investigation career prosecutors and supervisors at the

department justice wear clothing investigation will not seek criminal charges. i realize it's not impeachment but let me say this. no evidence was uncovered that any irs employees have been directed to destroy any information by congress. do you want to quarrel with that investigation? >> i think you are conflating two different topics. what we are most concerned about and mr. koskinen's action under the subpoena that is not what the fbi. >> but the actions are dealing with a whole litany of issues. >> just answer yes or no. the premises all the information and charges made about discriminating against certain groups, are they not? >> the underlying concern --. >> through all of that. >> yes. >> the basis for which the tigta

at doj and desiccated they found no evidence to suggest in a crime so with respect to the commissioner his answers cannot be part of a crime if they found no basis for such crime and if these answering to the best of his knowledge that he cannot need -- may be bad behavior but cannot be guilty to an impeachable offense. >> i would disagree with that by the way. >> that's where we have that right and this is the impeachment committee. mr. issa asked if we threatened the impeachment of cabinet officers and he said yes. if that turns out to be entered have you given us yourself false testimony and should you be removed from office? >> i hope i have given everything accurate but if i find something and accurate i have an obligation as swiftly as possible to correct the record spree in this case mr. koskinen stands by all those statements i

showed you. he doesn't believe he has made any misstatements to date and i think that's the difference. >> i respect your work, i respect you and i respect mr. desantis as well. i don't want to see any single group conservative or otherwise be discriminated against. as we review these materials i believe even though this is not an impeachment proceeding i would also say the irs commissioner there is no definitive proof about him being connected to the underlying premise and to the best of his ability all the materials that we have including even though the doj at that point directed to subpoena suggests he answered it as effectively and cheerfully as he can? >> with the gentlelady yields back i would be happy to yield to. >> in the time that the gentlelady has it she would

yield to the german from california. >> in the case of the scooter libby conviction my understanding was he was alleged to give a truthful statement about what was ultimately determined not to be a crime. he had no part in revealing the valerie plame identity and yet he still was disbarred and criminally indicted. so my understanding is all testimony or dereliction of duty is still impeachable whether or not the justice department term as there's a crime, think mr. conyers would confirm that i believe that's the question before us as to the commissioner's possibility of being found to have failed to meet his obligations which is the allegation that underlies the chairman. >> if i may in a moment -- and the mom left over video personal

knowledge to the underlying fact? as was the point i was making. i did not see any group including the ten-minute presentation to mr. koskinen had any personal knowledge of the facts in the occurrences. he directed the 160,000 hours, $20 million and represented that he presented what he could find in previously the doj and the treasury inspector general found nothing that said that the irs was discriminating against certain groups and liberal groups. i stand with the president who says. >> the time for the gentlewoman has expired. >> the gentleman is not impeachable at this time vidale back. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from iowa mr. king for five minutes. >> i think the witnesses for not only your testimony but your due effort on this and also chairman

issa leading on this. this goes so deep as i listen to this testimony here today and try to make sense of this timeline. i've like to backup a little bit and ask you chairman chaffetz what was the first day the public became aware or you became aware that there was a problem with the irs potentially targeting conservative organizations? >> i think that goes back to 2011 if i recall in the ways & means committee. >> it would be the first formal letter to the irs. are we working with the date that is half a year ahead at that time? >> at our call when the first complaint start a command that they were groups complaining their applications were being held for unknown reasons. >> this was under the irs commissioner doug shoeman? >> there have been a couple of different irs emission or save process. >> i would turn to this the tapes were destroyed, do we know the exact dates that they were

destroyed? >> yes we do. it was march 4 if i were call, 2014. >> if we know the exact date than we know the name of the individual that destroyed them? >> the inspector general did interview some people who work there. i don't have that name at my fingertips but i believe -- i would have to confirm that but they were relying on inspector general who interviewed the people. >> we do know the name of the individual and the inspector general knows the name of that individual. would you have any knowledge as to whether commissioner koskinen had confronted that individual to ascertain the truth as you would if you were a manager? >> i believe the inspector general testified as i recall that based on -- we found no evidence that there was any attempt or communication with them to confirm the existence of

these tapes and again the inspector general found it in 15 days. >> we are dealing with among other allegations here perjury and obstruction of justice and i would ask if you have speculated as to why one would leave themselves honorable for such charges? what could be more imposing than such charges and either witness i'd be happy to hear. >> it's hard to understand or definitively identify the motive but i also think there's an underlying belief the executive branch come the legislative branch isn't going to stand up for itself pretty think that permeates far beyond this. they can provide or not provide and just ignore them. the commission was invited to testify and he just said no.

>> i just believe it would be completely possible to impeach him without inviting them back again and i would encourage that if you were to invite himself we should consider his request. mr. desantis do you have anything to add to this that i've left out? >> i think it's frustrating because if a taxpayer treated the irs the way the irs treated a congress that just wouldn't fly. i think we all know that and you've talked people have had dealing with the irs and the private sector and they laugh when you say, could you allow evidence to be destroyed that was the subject of a summons or would if he made false statements, as that fine or what if asu to do certain things and decided not to do it. i have yet to find somebody who think that's acceptable. >> are we addressing the real central point because i think there's another point that i think it is or must have been the motive. if the irs comes to me and insist that they have my documents and i'm going to provide them because it's easier

to do so than to face the wrath of the irs. when you are pointed to cleanup the agency of the irs is their commissioner you know there's a problem that you have inherited and there are 24,000 missing e-mails and that, is it possible that those e-mails could trace back to the highest reaches of government at the most famous address of united states of america perhaps? >> i have seen no evidence of that but i will tell you that you look at what happened with lois lerner, that was her constitutional right and i respect that but you could also see correspondence where it was quote unquote perfect that they couldn't search her text messages and within days of the letter going to the irs or hard drive crash. what a coincidence but i have seen no direct evidence that i can point to nor is his central

to the impeachment resolution which goes directly to what mr. koskinen did and did not do under subpoena before congress. >> in conclusion with the statute of limitations on these charges? >> i have no idea. >> think you witnesses, thank you mr. chairman i yield back the balance of my time. >> i recognizes the gentleman from georgia for five minutes. >> think mr. chairman. i found this video to be very artistic. >> thank you. i take that as a huge compliment. i would say was professionally produced. what staffer was it that was responsible for the production of the city of? >> i will be the name. we have a number of people on our staff. you can come with me and i will

show you. >> who is primarily responsible for the production of that video? >> rebecca edgars the head of the comedic asians grew. we have and j. hinshaw who is very involved. we have had a number of people and right after this hearing if you want i will walk back and introduce you to them or you'd. >> those names that you just mentioned, all of those people are on congressional staff. >> if the question is did we produce it internally? >> my question is all of the people who you just named are on congressional staff. they were the ones responsible. >> i believe there was one person who worked on it to no longer works for congress but when he worked on it he'd did work for congress. >> was there anyone who is not a member of congressional staff? >> i don't believe so. the voiceover was alex and i will introduce you to her if you would like. >> okay and was that video

produced by those congressional employees while they were on congressional time? >> absolutely. >> plus any that produced outside of congressional time? >> i don't believe so. >> what equipment was used to produce that video? >> we have a lot of apple products and i can show them to you. i can't name them off the top of my head. >> with a congressionally owned equipment? >> yale. >> how has that video been used outside of congress? >> we have made public a few months ago. available on our web site. facebook an instagram, it's out there far and wide. >> all of that is on on congressional social media, is that correct? >> i believe so.

>> go to oversight.house.gov and you will see yourself or you'd. >> the video under the direction of congressional employees ever been used for a non-congressional purpose to your knowledge? >> i couldn't testified about that. there are untold number of people who can cite that link. >> was any of the footage that was edited been used in this production derived from congressional sources? or was a solely non-congressional sources? >> there were clips from the beginning of news media. >> those were obviously not

congressional video. >> correct. >> were there any video that was used or were there any clips of congressional video that was used in the production of this video that we saw today? >> i would have to go look. there are an awful lot of clips in there but i would have to go look. >> let me ask you this question. the senate finance committee investigated this irs issue, correct? >> yale. >> and the treasury inspector general, the treasury department inspector general ultimately investigated, isn't that correct? >> let me amend the previous answer and tell you that what we looked at was what mr. koskinen did.

if you want clarity i will give it to you. >> i just want you to answer my question. is it a fact that doj, the department just as investigated this irs issue? >> yes or no. >> there are two parts to this. >> you don't want to answer my question. >> i want to give you a complete answer. >> doj and the treasury inspector general all three of those entities investigated this so-called scandal involving the irs. >> that's not true. >> each came to the conclusion that there was no criminal intent on anyone's part. >> disagree. >> and we have regular order please? the gentleman is it's over is time. the time of the gentleman has expired. >> i asked the chairman for additional one minute to finish eliciting responses to the questions that i asked. >> will you let him answer?

>> i would love for him to answer the question that i asked. >> the gentleman is recognized for additional minute with the understanding that gentleman will yield to the witnesses so they can answer their questions. >> i will restate my question then. i thank you mr. chairman. it is a fact that the senate finance committee, the department of justice and the treasury inspector general all investigated this alleged irs scandal that is the subject of this hearing today and each one of those interviews found that there is no evidence whatsoever that anyone acted with criminal intent. isn't that a fact? >> no. with the senate finance committee said quote there was bipartisan agreement that the irs showed a lack of candor end quote. >> you didn't answer my question. >> give me time to answer the

question. >> it requires a yes or no. >> it requires a complete answer because you're conflating two issues. one issues the investigation to lois lerner and her actions on her e-mails. this impeachment resolution we put forward deals with mr. koskinen and his actions in his ability to tell the truth and how he misled congress. that's not something the fbi lookout in fact it would be duly noted the fbi never interviewed mr. koskinen, never interviewed him. >> you didn't mention the fbi. >> he said the department just is. >> issa doj. >> the time of the gentleman has expired. the chair recognizes the dauman from texas mr. gohmert for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chair. appreciate the witnesses being here today because this is important since the internal revenue service is the only entity of which i'm aware the

federal government that can ignore the constitution as part of its job. nobody else ignores the constitution but they can take people's money without due process, they can take their property, they can move in and destroy take a business that they take a lifetime to build and they have done that so it is particularly important that such an agency they should ignore the constitution must itself be completely overwhelmed with integrity. .. bene

>> until you get to the supervisors and above and that is where the rot is occurring and the stink is getting overwhelming. one of the judges in tyler texas, legislated from the bench and had an incredible sense of integrity and had he been listening to koskinen, he had no

use for people that came in and obfuscated as this man has done. now, back under the bush administration, in this committee we had an attorney general coming in here and under questions about the national security letters he testified from the table our witnesses are sitting at that there were no known abuses of the national security letters. they were something like the irs might use demanding production of documents without going through a judge. he testified similarly in front of chuck schumer's committee and it was later found, and i watched the replay of the testimony late one night, where we testified well it turns out he had an i g report on this desk three days before he

testified before the senate that indicated there were thousands of abuses of the magzal security letter. and that he didn't know that and under very tough questioning from senator schumer he said look, it was on my desk for three days, that is true. but i never looked at it and didn't know. i wasn't lying. where -- where was outraged at the lack of competence and i called the white house chief of staff and said you have to get rid of this guy. he cannot be defended by republicans again. this is outrageous. and my question, not just to the witnesses, but all my colleagues across the aisle, where is the democrat with the rightish indignation that will call the white house and say, as i did,

affon attorney general, this man -- of an -- has to go and within a month that attorney general was gone. i would love to see the democrat to stand up and call it as it is without regard to party. >> i yield back. the chair thanks the gentlemen and recognizes gentlewoman from washington, mr. delbene. >> thank you. the house was told they would be better to spend their time investigating people seeking tax exemption status. this isn't an impeachment hearing. i agree with our colleague from louisiana.

you can think whatever you would like about commissioner koskinen, but what we are doing today does nothing to bring the truth to light. i think senator hatch summed it up well saying quote we can have our disagreements with him but that doesn't mean there is an impeachable offense end quote. the real elephant in the room is the irs does have significant issues that congress should be talking about. i hear from people who are worried about identify theft and others who have to pay money to an expert just to file their taxes because the tax code is complicated. and worth is people who can not get through to the irs through the phone because the agency is so under funded it can barely serve the american taxpayers. if we want to improve government

accountability for the benefit of the american people let's start talking about getting a good return on investment, let's commit in ernest to solving some of these issues and let's stop wasting time on scircuses like this. the evidence is not there and i think it is time to move on from these games and do some real work. i yield back. >> the chair recognizes the gentlemen from ohio, mr. jordan, for five minutes. >> i thank the chairman and thank you for having this important hearing. john koskinen had several duties and breached every one of them. he had a duty to preserve documents under subpoena and produce those documents and a duty to disclose to congress if he cannot present the documents, he had a duty to testify

accurately, and correct the record if he testified in an unaccurate manner. he breached all of these. no wonder the guy didn't show up. if i had that record i would not show up either. never forget what happened here. the internal revenue service and the power it has over american's lives systematically targeted fellow citizens for their political believes doing it for a sustained period of time and got got. when they got caught, they did not a lot of people do when getting caught, they lied about it. may 10th, three years ago this month lois lerner, trying to get ahead of the story and before the first report was released, not the one we are talking about, trying to get ahead of the story, the central figure at

a bar association meeting has a friend ask a planted question and lerner says it wasn't me, it wasn't washington, it was those folks in cincinnati. complete lie. 12 days later, may 22nd, she takes the fifth. the same day the irs says preserve all documents. may 22nd of 2013. when the central figure lies and takes the fifth it sort of puts a premium on getting the documents and information and all of her communications, right? then comes in mr. koskinen. when he is hired, when he is confirmed here is what the president said we need quote new leadership that can help restore confidant -- confidence going forward. and i would argue breaching all duties he had marino he has done

anything but restore confidence. under his watch we learned what happened today and he allowed 422 backup tapes to be destroyed. when he learns about it he waits four months to tell us. he doesn't even check on any backup tapes that exist because he found out there were 700 others that were not destroyed that could have helped us. he didn't check when he told us some had been destroyed which leads to the one question i have. i want to thank the chairman for this hearing and the second hearing that is coming. is the standard, in your judgment, for impeachment criminal intent standard? >> no, i can it is clear if you look at alexander hamilton he said it is about the violation of public trust and those offenses are inherently political as they relate more to injuries done to society.

and joseph story's comments on the constitution several decades later said they need to be thought of as political offenses growing out of misconduct or disregard for the public interest. he said they must be examined upon very prod and comprehensive policies of duty. >> gross negligence, brief of public trust, right? >> sure. >> mr. chaffetz, do you think mr. koskinen had gross misconduct over the several months trying to help us get to the bottom? >> yes. >> do you think a duration of duty. his chief counsel new in february of 2014 there were problems and a gap in lerner's e-mail and he didn't tell us until june. the reason he told us he waited

four months is because he was doing his due diligence to make sure it happened. part of that wasn't checking to see if there were backup tapes available. i think that is duration of duty. and breach of public trust, oh, my, goodness. we heard the democrats talk about problems at the irs. they talked about the security breach. 385 billion and their duty is to collect revenue but they cannot fulfill that but have time to target people and destroy tapes? this is breach of public trust and negligence in gross form. i want to thank you for the first hearing and look forward to the second one where we will have experts come in to talk about the standards that must be done to get rid of someone with the conduct mr. koskinen has.

>> the chair recognizes the gentlemen from new york, mr. jeffers. >> i have had the opportunity to serve in congress for about three and a half years now. i think the greatest evidence of gross negligence and brief of public trust was when members of this body in october of 2013 decided for purely political reasons you were going to shutdown the government for 16 days and cost the economy $24 billion in loss economic activity. yet we have to sit here at this hearing and be lectured about alleged gross negligence and breach of trust. people need to look at their own conduct and behavior and how that has impacted the american people and their bottom line rather than subject us to this tax taxpayer funded fishing

expidatiexp expedition because there is an addiction that some have in this body to impeachment. let me ask mr. desantos a question. do you think president obama has created an impeachable offense? >> i never argued that. this is in the context of the irs. >> the chairman of the finance committee is orin hatch who has jurisdiction over the irs as chairman of the finance committee is that right? >> yes >> he is a well-respected member of congress. >> yes. >> man of integrity? >> yes. >> he stated we can have disagreements with the irs commissioner but it doesn't make it an impeachable offense. is that correct?

>> i think what senator hatch and the senate finance committee are looking at might be different than what we are looking at. many of the statements i believe are false and misleading happened in the house of representatives and i would note the senate finance committee came to a conclusion that vote bipartisan agreement that irs showed a lack of candor. end quote. >> the essencef of this controversy as i understand it relates to the possible destruction of documents. do you believe that destruction was intentional? was it incompetent? >> the irs argues it was accidental. let's take their word; that is not acceptable. when there is a subpoena they have a legal obligation to protect and preserve and didn't do that. >> in terms of what the irs may have said, let's put that to the side for a second, jay russell

george is the treasury department of the secretary jeperal and man of integrity and well-respected, bush appointee? >> yes. i think he worked for the oversight government committee and reform committee. >> okay. republican appointee. did the report issued uncover any evidence of intentional destruction of evidence? >> i was careful in my comment to separate out what happened with lois lerner's e-mails and the actions by mr. koskinen himself. the inspector general didn't look and investigate the totality of what is in our resolution. >> the inspector general's report concluded quote the investigation did not uncover

evidence that the irs, and its employees purpose leo raced the tapes in order to conceal responsive e-mails from the dodge or inspector general. that the correct? page three, paragraph two? >> i believe now stated that accurate. >> so what i am trying to understand is we are here considering an impeachment proceeding. perhaps the more severe remedy available to congress as it relates to a separate but co-equal branch of government, where a republican appointed, inspector general concluded that the underlying act that we should all be concerned about accidental and not intentional. but we have a theory, even though the republican appointed inspector general concluded the

underlying acts, if anything was based on being incompetent it wasn't intentional, and we are claiming he came before congress to conceal something while incompetent wasn't criminal. i think this is respectfully a remedy in search of a problem and we have better things we could be doing with our taxpayer dollars to put the american people to a better quality of time. >> the time of the gentlemen has expired but the witnesses will be allowed to respond briefly. >> the first question is dd they destroy documents under subpoena and the answer is yes. whether you believe that is an accident or intentional that will be for the next hearing you have next month about the

standard for impeachment. i don't believe you have to prove intent to get there. to the 60,000 people that will get a subpoena and that will get a summons from the irs is it good enough for them to just come back and say, you know, i had those documedocuments and o accident i destroyed them all. do you think that is going to fly? heck no. no way. if that testimony wasn't accurate and they wanted to direct it they had a duty and obligation to do it and they never did. i could go on. >> recognizes the gentlemen from pennsylvania mr. moreno for five minutes.

>> thank you, chairman. let me read a summary concerning a method by which we could address these matters to gather information from from a criminal standpoint. under the constitution in its accept separation of powers, congress has no direct role in law norsement or initiating a prosecutor for a particular matter. congress has a legislative role to design a statutory mechanisms of independent counselors or special prosecutes as it did in title six of the ethics and government act of 1978. under the provisions of that law related to independent counselor, called special prosecutors before, the attorney general was directed to petition a three judge panel to name an independent counsel upon the

receipt of credible allegations of criminal misconduct by certainly high level personal in the executive branch of the federal government and prosecution by the administration might give rise to an appearance of a conflict of interest. in 1999, congress in its infinate wisdom allowed the independent counsel law provision to expire. on the expiration of the law, in june of 1999, no new independent counsel or special prosecutor may be appointed by a three-judge panel by application of the attorney general. the attorney general retains the general authority to assign or name individuals as special counsel to conduct investigations of prosecutions of particular matters or individuals on behalf of the united states. as a result, and as a result of what took place with the irs,

and how untruthful they have been, i am personally moving forward to drop legislation that reenacts title 6 of the ethics and government act of 1978 where independent counsel can be appointed to investigate these matters so justice can be served. and i yield back. >> chair thanks the gentlemen and recognizes the gentlemen from rhode island for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. before i begin i want to stress i have a great deal of admiration for the members on the committee and i recognize the sincerity of their reviews however i must respectfully disagree with the conclusions they have drawn. calling for the impeachment of koskinen saying he obinstructed justiceed and perjury and failed to provide oversight of the investigation of the irs. the treasury inspector general

for the tax administration, the senate finance committee, and the department of justice have each conducted their own investigation in the so-called irs targeting scandal and they did show mismanagement but no allegation of politically motivated behavior and no evidence showing commissioner koskinen misled congress. each investigation found no evidence what so ever that the commission has acted in bad faith. under his direction, the irs spent 20 million and collected and reviewed 1.3 million pages of documents to investigating committees including 78,000 e-mails sent or received by lerner and 24,000 e-mails that were effected by ms. lerner's hard drive crash.

hard to challenge this as an attempt to -- hard to characterize this as an attempt to stonehall, hender or obinstruct a congressional investigation. -- stone wall, hinder or obinstruct -- we are not dealing with the issues that have real impacts for our voters. i regret we are not holding hearing on gun violence intervention, property rights and comprehensive immigration reform. with that, i yield back. >> chair chathanks the gymnasiu and recognizes the gentlemen from south carolina. >> thank you. i was thinking as chairman jordan was talking about the history of this investigation as these two witnesses well know there were half a dozen defenses offered by the irs throughout

the course of this investigation, each of which collapsed under its own ill logic. it began with the two people in ohio that were blamed, my favorite defense was that the irs is too incompetent to construct a scheme as sophisticated as this one, then they moved to targeting progressives so we were equal in the discrimination, and my favorite toward the end was the president himself didn't personally approve this targeting scheme therefore you don't need to look at it anymore. i know the next hearing is about the process -- koskinen mentioned due process in his opening statement that he didn't give to us. and the next hearing is about what processes do. the procedural part of due

process whereas this is more of the substance of the due process analysis. i am interested, as other members are, whatme elements ne to be proven, what is the standard of proof, is it clear? preponderance? beyond a reasonable doubt? can you use hearsay? i am interested in that. chairman chaffetz, you said something that i wrote down which doesn't happen very often but it did happen today, which is that impeachment is a penalty and punishment. you are exactly right. it is a punishment. what congress really wants is access to the documents and the witnesses because that is the life blood of any investigation. you cannot conduct an investigation if you don't have access to the documents and the witnesses. we know that. unfortunately, those who seek to

not be investigated also know that. so, until this body begins to incrementally assert itself with impeachment knowledge being the ultimate penalty. by the way, i want to make sure since i have two experts, one for sure, and the chairman of oversight, did i hear correctly that incompetence is not an impeachable offense? i believed the failure to perform the duties of your offense could be an impeachable offense. that the your under standing as well? >> it can be a factor. >> if what we are alleging -- the notion you can only impeach someone that commits an actual

violation of the criminal code is non-sense. there are lots of ways to screw up in your job that don't trice the level of meeting the u.s. criminal code. the notion, if i heard it correctly, that imcompetence is an allegation in response to being in competent is hard to get my around. let me ask you this, mr. koskinen said every e-mail has been preserved. was that true or false? >> false. >> then the next line is was it intentionally false, whether he had a duty to investigate and didn't perform that duty, that is what we want to investigate right? not the fault of it but the nature of the fault hood >> you are a prosecutor and these are not criminal incidents. but you were 8001 a reckless disregard for whether a

statement is true or a conscious effort to avoid learning the truth of a statement can be con construed as making a knowingly false statement. we are in a situation where at best he failed to review the fact and made a statement that is factually incorrect in congress. >> i have a backup page from 2011 and they no longer exist. is that true or false? >> that is true. they went back and were able to find some. they called it degauzed. >> clearly they exist because someone found them. >> it is how you define de-gauze. that was their defense and what they suggested. >> they destroyed a lot of tapes obviously but there were other

tapes in the inspector general, after the commissioner made the statement, they went to west virginia and asked for tapes and found a bunch and there were 1,000 unique e-mails they found off those tapes. when the commissioner said there were no backup tapes that was false. >> i am looking forward to the next panel. i am interested in hearing how inco incompetence can be a response to an allegation of being incompetent. i yield back. >> the chair recognizes the gentlemen from texas, mr.poe. >> one of the incidents includes a group of folks in texas, catherine inglebreck, you know her. to put it back in the record, in

july 2010 they filled for a non-profit status through the vote in texas. in december of so 2010, the fbi domestic terrorism units inqu e inquired about one of the meetings. they came back in 2011, the fbi, all of a sudden never being audited by the irs ever, catherine inglebreck and personal finances were audited by the irs for 2008, 2009, through the vote in march of 2011, irs questions on non-profit application. once again in may of 2011, the fbi shows up after one of their meetings. october of 2011, once again the

irs sends more questions, second round. some of these questions were including where have you spoken? who did you speak to? what are the list of people who were there? what did you say and give us a c copy of this speech and your future speeches. ...

osha shows up to investigate their nonprofit request and then environmental quality showed up in november of 2012. fourth-round of question from the irs, march of 2013, more questions from the irs and once again in april 2013. the bureau bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms shows up again. you have the fbi, and the task force and other organizations to investigate these folks. all they're looking for us to see if they can get an exemption from the irs. now, to me this appears to be an abuse of the irs working with other government agencies about the one issue that impacts the status. political persecution by the irs. as you mentioned in your opening statement, the irs knows how to get things done by their

subpoena and their request for information that they turn out. >> i apologize to the chairman. that's my mother-in-law calling. she has her own ring. anyway. they have ways of getting you to get this information. they show up all these different times trying to get information. to your knowledge, either one of you, has the irs, any agent, any agent, any person been held accountable for the abuse of power that they use against this one it is in back in texas? >> no, i'm not aware of any. >> no. >> all of the accusations against the irs, and there have been numerous, y'all have done the investigation on all these organizations who have been trying to get taxes and status.

the abuses that have occurred, or the alleged abuse that has occurred, has anyone in the irs been fired? >> no. he stands by all of his statements to this day. they claim it was an accident but nobody was dismissed, reprimanded, moved, i'm not aware of anyone having any consequence and the gao came back and studied it later and found that the situation is dire. it's bad and it's still available for targeting. >> mr. lerner retired for full pension even though she was held in contempt. >> nobody's gone to jail. >> no. >> you had a federal judge three months ago make the comment that the d.c. circuit judge in washington made the comment that the irs cannot be trusted. are you familiar with that statement by a federal judge? >> yes. >> alright. i'm out of time, mr., mr. chairman, i yield back to

you. >> they think the gentleman and send regard to the general men's mother-in-law. they recognize the other gentleman from texas. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. you know, i sometimes ask myself what i'm doing here in congress. i get frustrated and sometimes depressed, sometimes angry because i don't like the way things are going in washington d.c. we passed hundreds of bills just to see them die in the senate. the good stuff that does pass the senate probably gets vetoed by the president. the president regularly bypasses congress which is what i consider to be illegal and unconstitutional executive orders. am i wasting my time being here? what pulled me through on this is remembering that we are the elected representatives of the people of the united states. the people of the united states want us to do something.

they are mad. they're angry. they don't like the gridlock in washington d.c. they don't like the big intrusive government. they don't like the height tech taxes that they have to pay. you know what i think they like the least? being lied to by their elected representatives. whether it's the president, which if you like your health insurance you can keep it, or his appointees. we have got to take a stand and say we are not going to be lied to in congress. there is a campaign in texas called don't mess with texas. we need to reclaim some of our wreak constitutional authorities and people need to be thinking don't mess with congress. when you are called to testify before a committee of congress or what other you are subpoenaed to produce documents, you should do so promptly and truthfully. i'm seeing an alarming trend

that i think the administration and their officials have learned , you can delay and maybe they will forget it and it will go away. that is not the way it's supposed to work. that's not the way our founding fathers intended it. that's not the way the people who sent me to washington d.c. want to see it happen. they want us to do our job. they want us to hold the government accountable. chairman, you chaired the government oversight committee. are you seeing this same pattern ? >> i am and i think you hit the nail on the head. i know you are passionate about these issues and that's in part why i came to congress as well. the administration knows it can delay and we can't let them get

away with that. it's a principle and it should be true on both sides of the aisle. this is not a partisan issue. >> it shouldn't be. >> we saw it with eric holder. we saw it with fast and furious. we've seen it with hillary clinton's e-mails. it goes on and on. this is our opportunity to take a stand. i am a co- sponsor of the impeachment legislation. do you think that proceeding with this will send the message to the administration and the alphabet soup of the agency, don't mess with congress? >> i do. i believe the constitution is an inspired document and our founders but the mechanism in place specifically on the philosophers aired we studied this for three months with a house counsel and determine if you are confirmed by the senate, you can go into that area of government and impeachment is the process you can remove that person if they are not serving the best interest of the united states of america. >> i'm also, along with my colleague, looking forward to hearing from the law professors. my recollection of

constitutional law study in san antonio, texas was the impeachment clause means high crimes and misdemeanors and what can be impeached. congress decides what those are. >> exactly. >> i think it is our opportunity to reassert our authority and oversight prerogative and i think it's critical to maintaining the republic that the government officials who are paid by the taxpayers answer truthfully and promptly to the taxpayers representative. i yield back. >> for the remaining time, there's been a lot said by the gentleman on the other side of the aisle about how the department of justice has found no crime, no wrongdoing, no targeting. mr. mr. chairman, you continued where i left off on the committee, do you find that to

be inaccurate? in other words, is it fair to say that the department of justice failure to see what you see so clearly as continued targeting is in fact part of a cover-up that continues today? they are not seeing what is in plain sight and that's part of the reason you are here. >> potentially. one of the things i am concerned about is that the fbi never interviewed him and i question the thoroughness in which they came to these conclusions. >> i think the gentleman in my time has expired. the chair recognizes the gentleman from idaho. >> thank you mr. chairman. this investigation, i think has yielded some interesting results. i first want to start by thanking him for his hard work on this when he chaired the oversight committee. i also want to thank them for continuing the investigation and getting us to this point. as i review the evidence and reports, the similarities between this and watergate are staggering. i'm going to apologize, i will be the second person to use

wikipedia today. this is from wikipedia. the term watergate has come to encompass an array of clandestine and often illegal activity undertaken by members of the nixon administration. those activities included such dirty tricks as bugging the offices of political prominence and people of whom nixon or his officials were suspicious. nixon and his close aide ordered harassment of activist groups and political figures using the federal bureau of investigation, the cia and the irs. in july 1973 evidence mounted against the president staff including testimony provided by former staff members in an investigation conducted by the senate watergate committee. the investigation revealed that president nixon had a tape recording system in his office and that he had recorded many conversations.

after a protracted series of court battles, the u.s. supreme court unanimously ruled that the president was obligated to release the tapes to government investigators. he eventually complied. these audio rip courting's implicated the president and these are the key, revealing that he had attempted to cover up activity that took place after the break-in and to use federal investigation officials through the investigation. as i listen to the testimony and all the evidence, there is such an eerie similarly to watergate. they were using the irs and other agencies. the difference is that unlike watergate, we have lost the tape we can't prosecute these people

because they destroyed the evidence. as far as we know and if the evidence shows and as history shows, watergate did not include any destruction of evidence. they tried to hide the evidence, but they didn't destroy because the supreme court was able to figure it out and was able to tell the administration to bring the evidence forward. what i want to focus on are the emails which to me are like the nixon tapes. much like the 18 and a half minute gap of the nixon tapes, the sheer convenience of a hard drive crash with multiple other high-level officials experienced in system crashes and the subsequent erasing of data is highly disk serving. as many of these emails were subject to subpoena, the potential of a true true cover-up in the undermining of democracy and the democratic process becomes even more apparent in what we are talking about today.

this committee, in my opinion has the critical responsibility, and i hope that members from both sides of the aisle will give this matter the attention it deserves. it actually saddens me that there's only one democrat right now on the other side. the reason we got to the bottom of watergate is because republicans and democrats decided to take the investigation seriously. lowest learners hard drive crashed eight days after the letter that asked for the information. take a report that sailing the investigation from june 13, 2014 and it included a tracking of the hard drive and the procedures that took place. do you believe that the irs followed the proper protocols when addressing this crashed hard drive in 2011? >> no, i don't believe they did. >> the report identified six possible sources that will potentially recover the missing e-mail. to your knowledge, how many of

these sources were identified and examined by the irs in an effort to comply with the subpoena? >> inspector general indicated that five of the six were not sought or investigated. >> is there evidence in your opinion that the destruction of these tapes was part of a concerted effort to not comply with the congressional subpoena question at. >> i want to be very careful not to overstep. we see nothing that implies direct contents. i want to be very careful with that. the irs will call it an accident but again, as i've said many times before, they had a legal duty to preserve, protect, to find and see can present those to the united states congress. to that, they did not do it. >> they call it an accident and i call it an series of unfortunate coincidences. this was not a coincidence.

just to borrow from watergate, i'd like to better understand it and i hope we can get to the bottom of this of what he knew and when he knew it. i think that's what this committee has the duty to find out. >> i do hope that people on both sides of the aisle will look strictly at the facts, did they or did they not destroy the evidence. they did. did they or did they not provide false testimony and mislead congress, yes they did. when they knew it was wrong did they come back to congress and corrected? >> no they did not. there is a series in series in a pattern that is not nearly an accident. it goes beyond that. whether it's a democrat or republican, whether whether it's a democrat or republican administration, it shouldn't matter. you cannot destroy evidence that is under a subpoena. there should be a consequence for that. then you can't come to congress and lie about it which is clearly what happened.

>> i yield back. >> they recognize the children from arizona. >> thank you. mr. chairman, there has been so much very powerful and insightful testimony here today. my purpose here is to try, given the fact that we are coming toward the end of this hearing, i want to try to bring us back to what this is all about. not to become too foundational, we do still hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal and they are endowed with certain unalienable rights and among these are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. to secure these rights, this is is the key issue, to secure these rights governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed. for my purposes, i think this last sentence of that but i just said is the most important, deriving their just powers. whenever we have a government that uses the power of the irs

or any of its police powers to deliberately coerce some of its citizens for their political views or the religious views, that is by very definition tyranny. it speaks against everything that is at the core of who this country really is. so while we sometimes talk around the edges, this is a very big issue. did the government, did the the obama administration use their powers, their police powers in their power at the irs to intimidate people because they disagreed with them politically? if they did, that is profound and it is especially important for this committee who holds itself to be the guardian of the constitution to respond to that. it's very clear to me that coercion did appear. it's very clear to me that damage and impact did occur. it's very clear to me that

evidence was destroyed. it's very clear to me that there seems to have been an astonishing coincidence in that process. it's very clear to me that as he has said, the the irs never made any attempt to come back and correct those things, if indeed this was all accidental. what is not clear to me is why in the face of this we've seen such arrogance on the part and the flippant attitude that seems to be characterizing this administration constantly that whatever these great abiding symbols of this country is, there are put aside, just flippantly for the sake of the political moment. so i just want to suggest to you that i think this is an important thing. i will ask this question to the witness. i'll start with you. do you think that in this case that the irs, that the effect of

their action was to intimidate people based on their political persuasion? >> in my opening statement i told a story about campaigning for office for the first time in 2012 and asking to speak in front of a group that was in the process of wine for tax-exempt status and they really freaked out about me being there because i was up a local candidate and they were worried about the irs. i thought they were just paranoid it and i thought give me a break, why would the irs care about it. then when the scandal broke in 2013i immediately thought back to that and i absolutely sans example of them chilling their conduct because they were concerned about their irs. >> do you think there was deliberate intent on the part of some? >> it does appear that in the case of lois lerner that there was a concerted effort to target , that was the conclusion

of the inspector general. that was why we got this scandal continued to grow. i separate that from the resolution that we have before us, but the underlying premise that they targeted conservatives to press their first amendment right, absolutely. i think that issue has been clearly documented. >> yes, to end in here, the purpose of my questions were simply to point out that yes, intimidation did occur and government power was used to do that. at least some of those individuals knowingly did that and that is counter to everything we are as a republic that we are our rule of law, not a a rule of men. if we overlook that, just carry

a whistle he or casually, then i think we fail the test of being not only the defenders of our constitution but of our republic and of the people respectively and with that mr. chairman you consider that carefully and i yield back. >> i think the gentleman i now recognize myself for five minutes. i would like to thank all of the committee that have spent countless hours investigating this matter and i would like to particularly thank my distinguished colleagues that are here as witnesses today. thank you for being here in the search for the truth. if we were to rewriting the story all the way to the beginning, we know know this began with the irs singling out and targeting conservative groups because of their beliefs. we know that the ig has confirmed that. the problem here is the irs went on after an targeted select groups of americans because of their political beliefs. in this case it was conservatives. i've listened to my democratic colleagues across the aisle

today talk about this hearing being in an instance of grandstanding and calling it a circus. i wonder if some of those democratic colleagues might feel differently if the irs had been targeting other groups like environmentalists or advocate groups. in terms of the american public they have to restore trust and we are here at the wish of the american people. congress is investigating because of that. the committees here are trying to right a wrong and to restore america's trust. unfortunately because lois lerner was the driving force behind these initial outrageous activities and she refused to cooperate with congresses investigation, americans are left with one avenue for finding the truth. were learning the truth and that is through her e-mail records.

the problem here is when the irs was given a second bite of the apple, another opportunity, a, a second opportunity to restore and rebuild that trust, the irs once again broke that trust with the american people. this time through the behavior of irs commissioner. the fact here are really not in dispute. the commissioner failed to comply with the subpoena. he failed to prevent the destruction of evidence, in this case more than 24,000 of ms. lerner's emails. he provided false testimony to congress on the number vocation. his statement today said he testified truthfully and to the best of his knowledge, but the fact is he didn't testify truthfully. it may have been to the best of his knowledge, but it was not truthful. he failed to notify congress when key evidence was missing. in his statement, it offers a whole range of excuses that the erase of tapes was an accident, he personally didn't erase them.

he went so far to say he never asked to be the irs commissioner in the first place. all of that misses the point as harry s truman said, the buck stops here. it stops at the top. once once the commissioner assumed the responsibility, he deserves to be an odd to be held responsible for any misconduct. when any official misleads the american people and their elected representatives, when they obstruct an investigation and they allow the disruption of key evidence, action has to be taken and it has to be taken whether or not that is done intentionally or knowingly or whether it's done through gross negligence, whether it's done through such reckless ignorance that it allows the truth to be forever obvious gated from the american people. i wish the commissioner had

chosen to be here today. i would have a number of questions for him. he indicated he may come back before this committee. i hope that he does. if he does i will give advance warning of what we would like to know and that is i'd like to know why the houses of her e-mails were missing and they never even tried to recover the backup tapes. was that intentional or just a result of incompetence. like to ask them why they failed to look in five of the six places where the emails could've potentially been recovered. again was that something that was intended to mislead or was it just plain stupidity? i will ask the commissioner why he failed to notify congress about the missing email for several months despite a prior commitment on the record to be transparent and to notify us so soon as any problem arose. i'd asked why he falsely testified to congress when he said, since the start of this investigation every email has been preserved, nothing has has

been lost. nothing has been destroyed. less truthful words have likely never been spoken before this committee. i would like to ask the commissioner why he said those words under oath. unfortunately he is not here despite the serious allegations against him, he has declined to participate. the american people deserve to know why they were misled. they they deserve to know why the government officials are not above the law. that's what this hearing is about. again whether or not his actions were intentionally taken or whether they were so clueless, so incompetent, so negligent as to avoid the truth forever, we may not know. either way the commissioner has convinced me that he is not fit to lead an agency that has so much power and influence over the lives of every american.

and that concludes our hearing today. i think our distinguished witnesses for attending, without objection, all members will have five days to submit additional questions for the witnesses or additional materials for the record and with that this hearing is adjourned. [inaudible conversation]

madam secretary we proudly give 72 of our delegate votes to the next president of the united states [applause]. [applause]. >> the libertarian party is holding its national convention this weekend in orlando florida. we will have live coverage of the event beginning tomorrow at eight pm eastern. that's when the presidential

candidates face one another in a debate. then on sunday at 9:45 a.m. eastern, we will watch as the party chooses its presidential and vice presidential nominees. that's all live this weekend on c-span as part of our road to the white house coverage. >> he is the chair of the libertarian party. he is joining us from orlando where the convention gets underway this weekend. thank you for being with us. >> thank you so much for having me on. >> walk us through the schedule, both saturday and sunday, what c-span viewers and listeners can expect and how many candidates will be vying for the nomination. >> so on saturday, we will actually have the nomination of the candidates. names will replace the nomination. they are currently 18 candidates who are seeking the nomination. in order to be eligible, they need to get signature tokens from 30 of the approximately 1000 delegates that will be

president. in order to be in the debate saturday night, a candidate will need to have 10% or more of the signatures from the delegates at the convention. >> what is happening behind the scene. how do they campaign for the libertarian nomination? >> it's all very retail. the libertarian party has delegates that are selected by the state affiliate parties and they are sent to convention. no delegates are bound in our party so all approximately 1000 of the delegates will be free to vote for whoever they would like. candidates are then sending out mailers and emails and personal phone calls, handwritten notes and walking through the convention hall, even, even the day before we start, i have seen candidates going through all the delegates to try to earn their vote. >> to former republican governors, right now they're

forming the ticket of johnson and weld. they're getting a lot of attention, but as you indicated earlier, they are not the only candidates vying for your party's nomination. >> they are not. this has been a very vigorous race for nomination. there are between three and five, depending on how you count, candidates who have been going around for state party convention over the last few months trying to earn the support of the delegates. you have obviously governor johnson and austin peterson, tv producer those gentlemen have all been vigorously contesting this nomination. >> what does the libertarian party stand for? what is your basic mission statement as a party question.

>> the basic for us as a party is the idea that every person has a right to live their life and pursue happiness in any way they choose as long as they don't hurt other people and take their stuff. it shouldn't be the government's business how you raise your family or run your business or choose to relax on the weekend. those are decisions for you. i don't know how to live my life necessarily as well as i ought to and i certainly don't know how to live someone else's life. politicians have no greater knowledge of how your life should be lived. >> as a chairman of the party, why did you join and why are you leading this political party? >> so i joined, i was actually introduced to the party when i was 12 years old. my father took me to a local meeting. i've never been anything other than a libertarian. it just seemed right to me. this idea that there is a humility to it. i don't know how best to live someone else's life and near their due politicians. i sought the national chair in 2014 in columbus because i felt we were at a point where we had been doing this groundwork for almost 45 years and we needed to break out. we needed needed to make sure that we become a force in

american politics and are in a position to actually shape the debate and move our agenda forward. >> do you think your nominee has a chance in the general election? what's the goal in 2016? how do you break through between the democratic nominee, if it is hillary clinton and the republican nominee who will be donald trump? >> the goal in 2016 is that i have to go to an inauguration party. if you look at the american electorate, the largest chunk are people who don't vote because they are disgusted with the system. the next largest chunk are people who choose not to affiliate with the two parties. only then do you get to register as republican in democrat. with the nominees being the most hated people in modern politics, this is a historic election for a spirit we have an opportunity to break through and get on the debate stage and really present something for people to vote for rather than arguing over who is the biggest bully or who they are more afraid of. >> do you think you will be

taking away more republican votes versus democratic votes? where is your appeal? >> i think our appeal is across the spectrum. historically our demographics are members from approximately one third republicans, one third mcats and then a third from people who are politically uninvolved. what we've seen is in the two old parties there's a block of orders for dissatisfied and feel like they have been cheated per the more mainstream republicans feel like they were cheated out of the nomination and was given to a reality show star. the more progressive democrats feel they are about to be cheated out of the nomination with hillary clinton. there are a lot of discourage people from the right and the left. i think will continue to not move on the left right but more on do you want individual freedom or government control?

>> c-span will be the one network providing a full coverage of the libertarian convention on saturday and sunday through the nomination process. what do you think people will learn as they watch this unfold? >> i think they will see there is another way to do politics in this country. if you want to control other people's lives and argue over who gets to take taxpayer money and give it out and special favors, there are two parties for you already in this country. but if you want to live your own what life the way you see fit to raise your family the way you see fit, we are the only party that stands for your freedoms all of the time. i think people will see that kind of politics and be excited by it. >> nicholas is the chair of the libertarian party. he is joining us from orlando where the convention gets underway this weekend. thank you for being with us. >> thank you so much. >> are campaign 2016 bus continues to travel throughout the country to recognize winner from this years student can competition.

recently the buck bus stopped in massachusetts to visit several students from that state. they went to the same school where all the students in first through eighth grade attended the ceremony to honor the students for their honorable mention video titled gunning for safety. the bus also made a stop at the middle school to recognize honorable mention winners and their winning video called veteran services. james elliott one for his video entitled lb gt writes, stop the discrimination per they were honored in front of their classmates and received $250 for their winning video. a special. a special thanks to our cable partners for helping coordinate these visits in the community. you can view the documentaries at student can.org. >> defense secretary ashton carter gave this years address to the u.s. naval students.

he spoke about events in the asia-pacific and what he sees as potential security threats in the region. he also spoke about the importance of cooperating with u.s. allies. this is 30 minutes. [applause]. thank you, good morning. it's great to be here. ray, thank you and thank you for those years of excellent service as secretary of the navy. to all the distinguished guests here today, the academy faculty

and staff, so many family, friends, all here to honor and congratulate you, the class of 2016. every commencement is important, but those at our service academies have extra meaning. today you not only receive a degree that represents years of studying, striving, you take an oath to a life of service and sacrifice in the finest fighting force the world has ever known. indeed you have chosen one of the noblest professions there is, a profession in which you will be waking up every day to help defend this country and make a better world. thank you for doing so. each of us on the stage, everyone sitting in the stands here, every american around the country is proud of you today. in the years to come, all of us

will be counting on you. based on your performances here, that faith is well-placed. as the first annapolis class of cyber majors, you pack the yard and you are sending 27 new cyber operators into our force. you survived hurricane sandy, you weathered a government shutdown, you captured youtube, you've won won back the commander in chief trophy and beat army, again. and again. [applause]. and again. [applause]. and again. and you earned scholarships and a sixth round selection in the nfl draft. on that last one, on that last

one, keenan and chris, you, you are cleared and approved to do for your service so you can pursue your nfl dreams. go get them [applause]. now terrorist i say not every late night was dedicated to studying, not every rough morning can be blamed on hard pt, so for those of you who more may be sweating it a little extra under your choker collars this morning, i hereby grant amnesty to all mid shipment for minor conduct offenses. [applause]. this is a one-time deal. let's also think the parents, the grandparents, siblings, the spouses, friends of our

graduates. our military families, graduates. our military families, we know serve to. your love and support helps propel these men and women to and through the academy. your love and support will continue to be critical to them and to our nation in the years ahead. graduates, take a moment to give your family and friends a much deserved standing ovation [applause]. [applause]. thank you. midshipmen, your education and training at this academy has prepared you to be officers, to lead at a time of remarkable change for our military and our world. you will lead our forces of the future, one that will be just as excellent as the force we have today, but will also be

different in some ways, as you all know generations change, technologies change, labor markets change and that's why one of my responsibilities now and one of your jobs in the years to come is to make sure amid all this change we continue to recruit, develop and retain the most talented young men and women that america has to offer. men and women like all of you. we are going to do exactly that. you will also lead in a new strategic era. indeed today's security environment is dramatically different from that of the last generation. or even the generation before that. in this new era, you and your generation must meet no fewer than five major and immediate and evolving challenges. you encounter the prospect of russian aggression and coercion. especially in europe. you will manage a stark change

in the aids asia-pacific where china is rising, which is fine, but behaving aggressively which is not. you will strengthen our defense in the face of north korea's pursuit and provocation. you will check iranian aggression and influence in the golf and protect our friends and allies there. you will accelerate the defeat of iso and its apparent tumor in iraq and syria and everywhere it metastasizes around the world. you will also protect our people here in the homeland. you will deal with all five of these challenges across all domains, not just the and air and land, but also in cyberspace, electronic warfare. when you look at history, you

see we have a near-perfect record of failure when it comes to predicting the strategic future. you will need to be ready to contend with an un- certain future where new challenges will almost certainly arise. now the united states doesn't have the luxury of being able to choose among these challenges. we have to do it all. there is plenty to stay say about each one. i don't want to read any complaints about you cac on a commencement speech that went to long. my remarks are going to focus on just one of those five challenges. the single region that is most vital to our future, home to nearly half of humanity and nearly half of the global economy, and the one that will likely define many of your careers, namely the asia pacific. this tuesday i will depart for

my fifth trip to the region and before we go i want to talk with you about the essential, pivotal role role the united states has long played in the asia-pacific and what we and each of you will be doing in the coming years to protect america's interests and ensure that regions principal future. : day in and day out american soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines i worked to help ensure the region security and uphold a common set of principles for them to follow so that every nation

in person could rise and prosper. it has been america's objective in practice for decades and across strategic errors regardless of what else was going on at home or in other parts of the world, during democratic and republican administrations in times of surplus in deficit comeau war and piece, the united states has played an essential and pivotal role in the asia-pacific economically, politically, and militarily. in the history of the last century has taught us the order upon which the asia-pacific security depends is anchored in his principles. american service members of health right that history, and you will contribute soon to its next chapter. think about it. over the last two decades tens of thousands of sailors and marines aboard the uss john c stevan have sailed over 300,000 miles just to

run the asia-pacific region, launched countless sorties, made almost two dozen portals and worked with governments and militaries must really up to the republic of maleic, malaysia, japan, naval aviators have flown p threes over the region since 1962 keeping vigilant watch during the cold war, helping manage regional crises and helping keep waterways open. since 1981 thousands of american sailors and marines have participated in more than 30 iterations of bilateral exercise of the philippines which has helped us stand shoulder to shoulder with one of our oldest allies in the region, and many observer nations with them and for decades sailors aboard the uss lawson and other vessels have conducted routine, lawful, and freedom of navigation operations around the world including the

south china sea. every port call and flight hour, exercise and operation , sailor and marine has added estates to the fabric over the asia-pacific security and stability, helped uphold and defend important principles like resolving disputes peacefully, ensuring countries can make their own security economic choices free from coercion and intimidation, strengthening international and regional institutions and preserving the freedom overflight a navigation guaranteed by international law. for sailors and marines like you and for a maritime region like the asia-pacific that last one is particularly critical because it allows ships, people, and commerce to travel in piece, and that is why the united states throughout its history has stood up around the world, why sailors and marines have

helped uphold and protect free and open maritime access to the asia-pacific waterways and is one reason why we continue to fly, sale, and operate wherever international law allows so that others can do the same and will continue to do so to help maintain freedom of navigation and stand up for principles and the asia-pacific. that is because we have seen what good they produce and now they havehow they have enabled countries throughout the region to make incredible progress. think about economic miracle after economic miracle that has occurred there. first japan, taiwan, south korea, southeast asia, roseann prospered and now today china and india are doing the same. we want that positive trend to continue because it has been beneficial to the us economy and our interest as well as the people there. that record of progress is all the more remarkable when

you consider the region's shattered state in the aftermath of world war ii. and that is postwar stability and prosperity were never maintained by some regionwide structure the way europe had nato, instead, because, instead, because our service members worked inclusively and a principled and peaceful way, the united states has developed alliances and partnerships all over the region from japan, thejapan, the republic of korea, india, singapore, these relationships have long supported the age of pacific stability and prosperity and they continue to do so today of course, thecourse, the asia-pacific continues to be rich and great opportunities for the us, challenges always accompany opportunities in times of change, and not all change has been positive. indeed, in the south china sea and elsewhere there is a growing risk for the regions prosperous future, even though it is a future many in the region have chosen

and are working toward together, china has taken some expensive and unprecedented action in the south china sea. its construction and subsequent militarization of artificial islands undisputed features far surpass all other land reclamation efforts by other nations from all other combined, and when other aircraft ships and even fishermen act in accordance with international law near these features china tries sometimes to turn them away. now, the united states is not a claimant in the current dispute command we do not take a position on which claimant has the superior sovereignty plan over the disputed land features. but we are determined to stand with partners and uphold core principles like freedom of navigation overflight, free flow of commerce and the peaceful resolution of disputes through legal means in accordance with

international law, committed to ensuring these core principles apply equally in the south china sea as they do elsewhere because only by ensuring that everyone plays by the same rules to me avoid the mistakes of the past were countries challenge one another and contests of strength and will with disastrous consequences for humanity. that is why we will not waver in our determination to uphold core principles. our freedom of navigation operations by the uss lawson and other vessels are not statements about sovereignty of preferences for any country claims. they are on new to the last year, not confined to the south china sea. we routinely conduct operations all over the world. rather, each is a principled act meant uphold the left -- the rights of all nations, the united states, china, and everyone else.

in fact, what is new and unique to this region is the assertion of claims dredging, land reclamation and militarization on several but overwhelmingly by china. now, i focus on upholding principles extending the on the maritime domain. china wants companies that depend on the internet to flourish in the global marketplace so i cani can lift its peoples prosperity to globally comparative levels after decades of poverty, and yet china's cyber actors have violated, not to mention the law to perpetrate large-scale intellectual property theft from american companies. that is why the president has been determined to develop international understanding of behavior in cyberspace. china also wants and enjoys all the benefits of free

trade and free internet while sometimes restricting both as they apply to them. on the season cyberspace china has benefited from the principles and systems that others have worked to establish and uphold. helping to sustain those systems and principles of service so well for so long and set of working toward the win-win cooperation that beijing publicly says it wants china sometimes plays by its own rules undercutting principles. a model like that is out of step with where the region wants to go, far from a win-win. the result is that china's action could erect a great wall of self isolation as countries across the region,

allies, partners when they are aligned outlined are voicing concerns publicly and privately at the highest levels of regional meetings, such a model reflecting the region's distant past rather than the principal future we all want for the asia-pacific. america's rebalance which president obama wants what you were in high school is not about anyone country. on the contrary, it is an affirmative investment in and the government wide commitment to an inclusive and principal future. for example, one important component is the transpacific partnership that would deepen regional trade relationships. operationalizing part of the rebalance by sending a most advanced capabilities to the region doing this across the

force the let me give you some of our navy and marine corps, sending selfie fighters. our newest warfare ships, all the pacific. the budget invests significantly and payloads and platforms critical to the rebalance like the long-range antiship missile, the virginia class submarine , new undersea drones as well as areas like cyber electronic warfare in space and the planners and strategists are also developing new and innovative operational concepts. dod maintains world leading capabilities because we have made and comparable investments over decades and are budget this year does the same, decades more for anyone to build the kind of military capability the united states possesses today. the strength is not simply about dollar figures.

it is about harnessing those dollars for tremendous innovative and technological culture that only the united states asked. in doing so to develop revolutionary technology. the us military also has unrivaled, and this is important, and hard-earned operational experience gathered over the last 15 years. no other militaryno other military possesses this kind of skill and agility back my experience. and on top of all of this our allies and partners in the region also are a major source of strategic strength and influence in the asia-pacific and the dod deepening and modernizing existing alliances and networking our defense relationships thrower countries can do more together, you can see this networking trilateral mechanisms like aa deepening

cooperation, us-japan india cooperation and other broader multilateral arrangements and relieving these various partnerships together more effectively ensure the regions continued stability and security. this network overall demonstrates the united states commitment to playing an essential and pivotal role in the asia-pacific for decades to come. my operationalizing the rebalance, networking security of the nation's including china and by continuing to fly, sale, and operate wherever international law allows we will continue to uphold and defend the principles and security and stability of the asia-pacific. now some in china have argued the united states have been outside of the region, but our treaty relationship economic agreements and long welcoming military presence in the region have made us and asia-pacific stakeholder forever.

china has also suggested that we separate the issues involved in the south china sea from our broader relationship, but the united states cannot do such thing. china's actions challenge fundamental principles, and we cannot look the other way. i want to be clear, our vision for the future of the region is not at odds with the interests of china or any other country. indeed, we welcome the emergence of aa peaceful, stable, and prosperous china the plays a responsible role in world affairs. the united states does not seek confrontation with china. we have many shared interests including long-standing military to military ties which i hope to strengthen. in recent years through new confidence building measures and multilateral exercises like this summer's ram pack

we made great strides in forging more and better communication channels and reducing the risk of miscalculations that can lead to crises. the united states and china have worked together on issues related to north korea's nuclear publications , the iranian nuclear program, climate change, and we want to do more good things together. we will continue to stand by and stand up for every country that sees its future and freedom of choice threatened, continue to work toward greater cooperation, and as we have done many times throughout history, we will continue to stand strong and united within our country and with our partners and allies as we keep our eye on the long game there. one of the keys to our essential and pivotal role in the asia-pacific security network and our relationship with china is our people, you, you and all our sailors

, marines, soldiers, and airmen. our people are the most important asset america has in the asia-pacific. right now 365,000 american men and women in uniform are serving there, including nearly a hundred and 9,000 sailors and 70,000 marines. because you know how critical the navy and marine corps are in this region, most of you will serve their and operationalize the rebalance. as you do, you will not only meet your nations call that meet the call of our regional friends and allies and help defend and promote the principles that bind us all together. one of the constant things i hear in my travels, particularly in the asia-pacific is how great our people are.

it has never surprised me. and it is a strategic advantage, you are knowledge our people are reasons why we have all the friends and allies around the world and our adversaries don't. the united states is one of the only countries to prepare and educate our military officers for global missions. you have been trained here on the yard to be principled leaders, ethical officers must uphold the highest standards of honor and integrity. that is what i am the country expect for you, you are, but you are also some of the finest young men and women america has to offer. your why the united states remains the security partner of choice in the asia-pacific and around the world. and why our circle of allies and partners continues to grow. most important, your respectful of other people,

and they, militaries and citizens of countries around the world with the partner and fight appreciate how you conduct yourselves. you learned, they have learned that you are there not to intimidate, course, or exclude but instead the you inspire, cooperate, and include, draw people in countries to the united states because each of you accept your responsibilities , a strong heart and the cheerful mind. you embody the values of this great country, the traditions of the navy and the core in the words of the oaths you are taking today. because of you the united states will not only meet the five challenges we face in russia and china and north korea, we will overcome challenges and grab hold of a bright opportunity within our nations reach,

not only in the asia-pacific but around the world. you know, it is said that security is like oxygen, when you have enough of it you pay no attention to it. but when you don't have it it is all you can think of. yours is a noble profession because each of you, your fellow soldiers, sailors, marines, soldiers, airmen provide that oxygen, security that allows millions upon millions of people, not just in america but in so much of the world to be safe, to raise their children, to dream big dreams to live lives that are full. every day ourevery day our service members put their lives on the line to do so. and this is not a new commitment. some of you grew up around it, side and teachers and mentors command i see it in each of you today.

in a new strategic error and at aa time of great change the united states must end all of you will continue to ensure that ours is the finest fighting force the world is ever known. and you will continue to defend the security and stability and prosperity that it meant so much to so many here at home and around the world. to doto do so we will invest and innovate and change how we plan, operate, and fight, but we will never change who we are willing to fight for our safety and interests, those of our friends and allies command for the values and principles that have benefited so many for so long. because we do so, because each of you does so the united states will continue to meet the great responsibilities of our great nation. congratulations. [applause]

>> in addition to the graduating classes, i wish you graduate in the world of piece, love, but that is not the case. we all live in a fairytale, but i guess the one person does. >> this memorial they watch commencement speeches in their entirety offering advice and encouragement to the graduating class of 2016 from business leaders like and cta president of pepperdine university, founder of oracle at the university of southern california and maria contrariness,contrariness, administrator of the small business administration at whittier college. >> you can count on yourself , what makes you special, what distinguishes you from others in business

we call it your unique value proposition. figuring out yours is key. >> politicians, senator jeff sessions of the university of alabama huntsville, senator barbara boxer at the university of california berkeley and governor mike payne. >> to be strong and courageous and to learn to stand for who you are and what you believe is the way the year changed here. and will carry in the balance of your life. >> and white house officials, vice president joe biden at the university of notre dame, attorney general loretto lynch at spellman, and president barack obama at rutgers. >> is it any wonder that i am optimistic? throughout our history and new generation of americans has reached up and bent the arc of history in the direction of more freedom and opportunity and justice. the class of 2016, it is

your turn now to shape our nation's destiny as well as your own, so get to work. >> commencement speeches this memorial day at noon eastern on c-span. >> madam secretary, we probably give 72 of our delegate votes to the next president of the united states. [applause] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> now an update on the us

strategy for combating terrorism. spoke to reporters at the pentagon by video. talked about ongoing airstrikes and events in syria was asked about recent photographs that show us special forces wearing the insignia of kurdish troops. this is one hour. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

>> the naval academy commitments to take place before you came out, i know that cats and your dinnertime a little bit, but we appreciate you being flexible on your schedule. we will turn it over you for opening comments. >> thanks a lot and good afternoon. pentagon press corps. i know it is a three-day weekend i am probably the only thing between you and barbecue, so we will try to keep it snappy. i have a few prepared remarks, so are we right to them. operations to liberate falluja have begun. , hotel located 10 miles northeast of the city is clear. isf are moving along multiple axes but have not yet entered the city. we estimate there to be up to 50,000 citizens remaining

in falluja. the government has been clear that protecting these civilians is there priority. i have leaflets to inform the civilian population to avoid isis areas. those director those who cannot leave the put white sheets on the roofs to market locations. the iraqi army is working hard to establish evacuation routes, and the local government has set up camps for displaced civilians. so as was the case in ramani , this is a combined operation made up of thousands of forces from iraqi army, federal police, sunni tribal fighters, and cts. popular mobilization forces are also participating in the separation, and they have said publicly that they will remain outside the city.

the coalition has been supporting us with airstrikes and with artillery fire. over the last four days 20 strikes totaling 57 engagements have destroyed fighting positions, got emplacements, killed more than seven enemy fighters including my here arehear al mullally, the commander of isis forces in falluja. across the entire battlefield in the same timeframe they conducted 102 total airstrikes that killed 231 total enemy fighters. still early in the falluja fight, so it is unclear how long this battle last. we have seen two flavors of isis in the last several months, in ramani we encountered an enemy chose to stand and fight. more recently isis hid

behind women and children before throwing down their weapons and running away. in both cases they lost, but won't was quicker than the other. we saw a local newspaper report that some of the fighters who fled were arrested by their leadership and then executed by being placed in bakery ovens and carts to death. elsewhere in and bar they pushed 65 kilometers west to the junction and successfully reclaimed and outpost, also a former us military base that we use than the old days -- in the old days call korean village. in the tigris river valley units from the 15th iraqi army division continue clearance and security operations. today's focus may be on falluja, but muzzle remains

in our crosshairs. we conducted 12 strikes totaling 32 engagements that destroyed multiple enemy headquarters, several vb ied's, multiple tactical units, media center, and the tunnel system. in syria this week they announced that they have the young regular operations to liberate the countryside north of rocca. we have always been focused and will continue to support , particularly the syrian arab component as they can background operations to further isolate the city. there are more than 200 american advisers in syria working with the syrian arab coalition as they continue to pressure isis against a broad front stretching. recently there were images

of two cg atf servicemembers wearing why pg packages. i want to make it clear, and this is coming from the commander that our focus is to provide advice and assistance to the syrian democratic forces, particularly the syrian arab component of that force. i just wanted to make that clear up front. now, finally as we move into memorial day weekend let's not forget the three americans who have lost their lives supporting this operation. army master sergeant joshua wheeler, marine staff sergeant lewis garden, and navy chief petty officer charles keating. these men are american heroes and will not be forgotten. every warrior knows that

when we speak the names of the fallen they live on. with that come i will take your questions and hopefully ap is there. let's start with you. >> hello. congratulations on your final briefing. i think on behalf of all of us we appreciate all the effort you have put into these and hope that they will continue as such even after you leave. my question, you talked a little bit about this area, to questions on that. turkey has launched i guess or at least made known their formal unhappiness with the us for swearing the batches. do you know the commanders there are anyone has responded to turkey?

and secondly are they getting closer to the front lines as the syrian rebel forces move closer, and i think we understand they are helping to call in airstrikes. is that not the case? >> thank you for that. the 1st thing i make clear is that wearing nose why pg packages was unauthorized and appropriate and corrective action has been

taken. we have communicated as much time military partners. as far as what our forces are doing, they are there to provide advice and assistance to the syrian arab coalition what is that mean? advise and assist, we have seen what it means here in iraq,iraq, and it is the same type of mission, providing advice on how best to fight. and a couple of important points. the american forces, guidance and direction is to position themselves were enemy contact is unlikely. they conduct mission analysis, go through a

series of steps to analyze them before they go somewhere they ensure that whatever it is they go enemy contact is not likely. so i think that is number one. as they are moving around the areas where they provide advice and assistance the type of things they are working on everything from how these units can better coordinate the logistical piece of the fight, we will take a look at the tactical battle plans and help her find them and will help with the integration. we have air power providing support, and one of the things our advisers are capable of doing is helping to integrate the air and ground movement. ensuring that the air power

is in the right place at the right time, understanding the ground maneuver plan and then relaying the details of the plan to the air planners so that they can appropriately ensure the right aircraft, isr, the right aircraft with the right weapons in the right place at the right time. these are some of the best soldiers in the world. day-to-day, here is how to be a soldier. it is important to notice that the advisers are required to stay in areas

where enemy contact is not likely. >> thanks. a quick follow-up, unauthorized and appropriate. does that mean they remove the patches and us forces of either routinely are other times when patches or insignia of forces that they are with. is awith. is it unique to this location that it was inappropriate are you saying that they are not allowed to do this ever? >> well, to parse to that answer.

wearing the patches is not authorized. regulations say don't where patches. that said, the special forces community has a long and proud history of wearing such batches when they are partnering with forces around the world, and you will see examples of that in afghanistan, iraq, latin america and all over the world where special forces personnel train and conduct foreign internal operations. this is something they often do and is an effort to connect, the fact of the matter is it is not authorized. as far as any additional reprimands or anything like that, i am not aware.

but the bottom line and the important thing is the situation has been corrected and we have communicated to our allies that such conduct was inappropriate and unauthorized. >> thank you. >> what is the 1st thing you are going to grow new you know? [laughter] >> hopefully it stops raining in virginia and i'll be able to get my grill sparked up. >> second, the give us a sense, when troops provide lines come on average what is that distance?

>> it is impossible to put a number on that because it depends upon the terrain and the enemy situation. and constricted richard to having constricted terrain it will be closer. and wide-open terrain it will naturally be father. it will very anywhere from miles to go honors. we conducted operations to liberate one city we talked about the fact that there were advisers in the top of the mountain that overlook the city. in other cases they will be much further back. in other cases they could potentially be closer. i do not think that would be common. so at the time there were

3 kilometers behind them there was an attack and penetration, so there is no simple answer to that, particularly in this terrain that varies mightily from place to place. there really is no single answer. analyze the mission, understand where the enemy is located comeau what we expect the enemy to do. >> i. thanks. could you give us an update

or estimate of the total number of kurdish strikes in and around since this push began? they put out a statement saying hundred and 50. and also has there been an uptick? >> is incorrect. i would ask you to go check out that website. it's terrific. every single one. you can just pull up those

daily strike releases, look through it and right next to the name of the city you will see the exact number of strikes conducted that day. it is an easy matter to check out. it has been averaging two to three strikes each strike consisting of three to four individual engagements. so i did not bring all that with me, but it is easy to look up. >> what would you attribute that to? >> can you say that again? >> what would you contribute that to?

>> i have no idea what you're talking about. that is completely off the scale. i cannot attribute anything. >> i wish you -- have a couple of questions. our focus in syria is to provide support, particularly arab component, but we have not ever seen any americans special forces pictures alongside. the main focus on the arab component, friendly forces wearing the patches.

>> yes. you're going to have to get the microphone out. only catching about every other 10th word. >> you said that the focus in syria is to support the syrian democratic forces. particularly the arab component. we have not seen the special forces, and most of them don't have any arab component. and if particular focus is with the arab component of the alliance then why we haven't seen any american special forces wheeling arab

coalition forces patches. ..

these are the only teachers are we are tracking as being legitimate so i think that's the answer. >> do you have anything on the other quarter currently that's under the pressure of isis where isis fighters are -- from each other and why did the coalition delay so much? >> why did the coalition do what today so much? >> currently isis is cutting off the city opposition and other opposition posts from each other and it has been for days that the fight that's going on over there we have seen very few coalition airstrikes.

the question is why is the coalition delaying to support this group? >> i can't answer. we have to cut the video altogether. i just can't hear a word you are saying. >> can you hear me okay steve? >> stand by one second. >> we will do a reconnect. you are coming in really garbled there, nick. are we doing a reconnect?

>> why don't you give me a countdown from 10. >> 10, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one. >> that's a 50% improvement so we will try that. >> hopefully this will be a charm. >> there are representative warts that the route connecting maura to others is falling to isis and their has been a fight for a few days. >> okay, hold on. >> let him finish. don't hang up yet. we are going to hang up and try to reconnect. this is ridiculous. i can't hear a word you are saying so david do you want to hang up and call back?

>> are right, we see you. in you hear us and we can hear you? >> i can hear a little bit better. let's try for the fourth time. >> okay. >> steve there are reports that the route connecting maura. >> can you hear him okay? >> the route connecting maura to

others is now about to fall to isis and the army has been fighting against isis over there for days, but they are complaining that the coalition delayed to give their support to them in time. the question is is there a particular reason for the delay in the coalition air support to the army and others? >> there is no particular reason for any delay. in fact we always try to rush airpower to where it's needed when it's needed or you have to understand the aircraft has to travel through space and that does take time. they are not aircraft available instantly all the time so we try to predict where we will have the aircraft on any given day. we aren't always knowing exactly

where the enemy is going to be and where he is going to pop up so the aircraft may be committed elsewhere. they will be connected and engage somewhere else or they simply won't be available but in every case when we have forces who require a request air support we do everything we can to get air support to them as rapidly as possible and we had the same problem down south two weeks ago where the forces there were under fire. they did request air support. recent air support but by the time the air got there was too late so friendly forces were killed but the battle sensually was over by the time the aircraft there. they can't be everywhere all the time.

>> hi colonel warren. this is carla with coa. i wanted to second what leyna said a big thank you to it you have been giving us the information at all hours the day and working hard to answer questions of thank you you for that. i want to follow up on the commander of volusia forces that was killed. can you give us more permission about the commander, when was he killed, how was he killed and how long was he a commander? and spell his name plays if you got it. please, if you got it. >> stand by, let me find him. his name was maher mike alpha hotel echo romeo and is middle name is al, alpha lima and then

there's a-it's a bravo india lima alpha. maher algol ali and he was the commander of forces in fallujah. don't know how long he had been the commander there. we killed him two days ago during a strike and this was the result of intelligence that we gathered on the headquarters in his location and we had the opportunity to take the strikingly ticket. this of course won't completely cause the enemy to stop fighting but it's a blow and it creates confusion and cause his second in command to move up and causes other leadership to have to move around so it continues to chip away at leaders boast or two to the wind we go after the high-value individuals or tactically. this is some intelligence

developed locally and we worked it very rapidly and an effective strike, score one for the good guys. that's all we have on him. we know who and what it was but we don't know his bio. >> this is the last refrain from baghdad on going to ask you to reflect a little bit and you have to sell a war that hasn't always been marked by spectacular victories. you have been going mono a mono at times with their russian putin propaganda machine and you've had to make arguments with this war that are very nuanced sometimes to news media that is skeptical so would you reflect back on how difficult has that done, how do you think you have done and have you been able to maintain your credibility and your integrity

as the chief military spokesman in baghdad. >> thanks jamie. that's a deep question and very personal. i will tell you what i tell a lot of the folks around me. here in iraq on the senior public affairs officer but there are number of subordinate public affairs officials and practitioners and professional communicators. what i've tried to tell them over the last year is that i'm not here to sell this war. i have no desire to sell this war. i keep my role to explain. selling wars is for other people. that's not rest. that's not for soldiers. our job is to win the war and allow explaining what we are doing.

think we have a real duty to america who entrust us with blood and treasure. our sons and daughters and fathers and sons of america are put in our care as leaders in the military and millions upon millions, billions of dollars to defend our way of life. >> i think i have a duty to hold this institution at least somewhat accountable to explain how we are spending that money and to explain how we are bringing that blood, those sons and daughters into this fight and how we are doing it i guess it's your job to hold us accountable but it's my job to answer for what we have done and what we are doing. that's what i have tried to do and i have one goal.

my mentor admiral kirby taught me when he became the press secretary for the department of defense he said that his goal in that job which he knew would be nuanced and he knew would be tricky and he knew would be difficult busted apart of his personal integrity and credibility intact. i will tell you i'm lucky i work for a commander who is probably one of the best commanders we have seen in a generation general sean mcfarland and he has made it easy for me to keep my integrity intact. he has never asked me or even suggested that i do anything otherwise so it's been a challenge. there is a lot of information out there. the russians are out there as you mentioned, the iranians are out there. we know that shia militia are out there. we know the char al-assad is out

there and we know our enemy isis , i sort da'ish. we have a hard time knowing what to do and call them but we know they are out there. they use the same medium to post recruits and to terrorize and so it is a duty to fight back. this war is being five on a lot of levels as is every war in history. it's being fought with bombs, american coalition bombs and it's being fought with iraqi and syrian bullets but it's also being -- so i try to take it as seriously as i can and i try to bring in a game when i'm interacting with you who really are part of this war whether you want to be or not because it's through you that my words and our actions are transmitted and it's also through you that the enemy's words and actions are transmitted and i know you all work very hard to ensure that

you strike a good balance and you don't allow yourselves to get taken in by enemy propaganda they don't allow yourselves to be confused by her sometimes dense military language so keep that up. that really is your duty forever and that's to watch what happens here and asked the smart questions about what happens here to keep yourself informed about what happens here and not to be suckered by anyone's words. check for yourself and i see a lot of folks doing that. i'm slowly but surely beginning to see more reporters start to trickle out here and that's good that's as it should be. i will tell you we can't help it like we used to. back in the old days we had these embed programs or we could bring in tens and 20s of reporters at a time and embedded in the units give them the protection they required. those days are no longer here.

we just don't have the capacity. we don't have the capacity to do that. a lot of this war are warriors that don't want to be the limelight and they don't want their words or actions to be seen because of the security requirements that are on them. i personally believe the press corps is the most professional in washington and it's been a pleasure to try to get the word out. >> hi steve, thanks again for all your briefings and it will be good will be good to have you back stateside. on fallujah with the leaflets that are being dropped to the civilians are there any indications that civilians are actually taking that advice and putting up a white sheet on rooftops? how feasible is that as a way to

to -- civilians? >> we have seen civilians standing on the roofs, rooftops. we have seen some of that and we have seen civilians standing on the roof with white cloth of some sort in more than that we have seen civilians try to get out of the city which is the first thing that these leaflets do and these are leaflets designed to be dropped by the iraqi's. >> we have seen the leaflets have some affect two axle. the city. it's tough though. they want to hide behind the civilian population and they don't make it harder for us. it's going to be a hard challenge to find a way to

liberate the city and keep the civilian population as safe as possible. the iraqis understand that they have a big challenge on their hands and we are working closely with them. the community is working closer with them and the united nations , everyone here is working together to try and solve this problem of liberating fallujah while at the same time protecting the civilians we are trying to liberate rates so it's a hard problem. there are no easy solutions to it. we will continue to advise the iraqi's and we are going to get the city. >> the artillery units, can they move forward and are they affected to move forward in fallujah? >> fallujah as well in range of those guns and there's no need to move.

>> lastly back to the ypj and patches he said they were unauthorized and inappropriate. what is an appropriate about that especially given the long history of social forces. earlier this week they said they were to blend in with the local population and also to show support so what is a pro. about those patches? >> there are political sensitivities around the organization and that makes it inappropriate. you have to understand the guys on the ground are going to do what they are going to do and they have a customs that they have been following for years. it's also important to stand the larger content which i think is the her. ms. of it and they didn't

understand that art are shaded as they should have. again corrections have been made and we communicated with our allies and we felt that those patches were inappropriate and they were unauthorized because they are unauthorized. plain and simple they are not authorized and we have made the correction so everybody's moving on. >> are any of them -- patches? >> i looked at them and it was hard to tell. the resolution on those pictures was not the best so i don't know you would have to take a close look. i only scanned them and you can tell the connection is not the best. >> colonel warren can you tell us if any of these u.s. special operations forces in syria have engaged in combat?

have they fired their weapons? >> to my knowledge no. at this point none of them have been engaged in syria. there have been cases of that happening in iraq but to my knowledge no but i will say what that with a caveat. they are deep behind enemy lines so i don't know what doesn't get reported. we only know what gets reported so i do want to caveat that up front. frankly at this level at the three stars two gtf headquarter level we may not have perfect fidelity on what happens every minute of every day out there in the wild in syria but to our knowledge there have been no work towards a fire fights if you will involving our forces.

>> steve, you said back on the rules of the gauge meant for the special operations forces in syria that they could only be in areas where contact is not like he. earlier we had been given a much more specific definition which was one feature between them and the enemy so that they would not exposed to direct fire. is that both of those? one sound specific and one sounds much more open to interpretation. >> it's kind of, the requirement is one where anime contact is not likely.

the general application of that is the terrain feature but the terrain feature is more of a rule of f-bomb. contact is not likely based on the specific criteria that go into the mission analysis. the one terrain feature that is the role because often that will be the case. particularly in this battlefield the way it's going, this is a mechanized warfare on a grand scale where we have large forces able to cover a lot of ground and assure period of time. this is a little bit more constrained because of the types of wars we are fighting. so the one terrain feature was the standard question. it's kind of a rule of thumb.

we use the shorthand and to be able to hopefully rapidly communicate to give a rough idea which is not where the enemy is. >> can you hear me? >> checking the audio. he asked if there were any other rules of thumb? >> none come to mind but you don't notice them until they come up but none come to mind right now. on this particular piece how it relates to the enemy while conducting advise-and-assist

operations no other rules of thumb come to mind. brauchli speaking the united states army we have plenty of rules of thumb out there but we can talk about those later. >> eating yellow snow comes to mind. >> a steve just a quick question on this. >> admiral kirby topic that one, don't stand up in a canoe. >> steve just a quick question on the security system in baghdad. i just wanted to kind of see what feed that there is interactive counterpart to their still discussion about possibly moving some forces back to the city to reinforce security and the second part is how much do you think fallujah has improved security and hasn't had any effect at all?

>> i think it's too soon to tell whether or not the fallujah operations will have an impact on security in baghdad. when fallujah is finally liberated and cleared of the enemy we will have an impact on baghdad security. i think the prime minister once referred to the knife pointing towards the throat of baghdad so i think lemay cleared out it will be a lot better. have i seen or heard additional discussion about the iraqi's repositioning forces? is a size their prerogative of course but right now there does appear to be less demonstration that today. we have seen a lot of the iraqi political and religious leadership make very public statements to not conduct

demonstrations or protests particularly while the fallujah operation is being conducted so we were encouraged to see that. so far, so good. >> ryan brown. colonel thank you for doing this and thank you probably sue have done. a couple of questions. first is some of the accompanying photos of the assault or says talked about them having missiles and firing them. with that kind of action be within the advise-and-assist description or is this reporting it accurately? >> their reporting is completely inaccurate. >> and moving on does -- the human rights has -- a knott do

you have any information on that? >> i've certainly seen those press reports. we don't have any announcements to make regarding that right now. >> and finally on this white sheets for civilian protection and fallujah this information was communicated by a leaflet produced there any reason to believe that isis will not simply put white sheets on some of their facilities to avoid being struck? >> there are is no reason to believe that at all. they most likely will and this is part of the complexity of urban warfare. >> thank you. >> a steve i'd like to go back to the airstrikes centered around raqqa. the u.s. coalition airstrikes are they striking targets inside the city and does this

complicate the deconfliction with the russians? do the russians voluntarily hault their airstrikes in raqqa or was this some kind of an agreement between the u.s. and russia to de-conflict? >> we don't deconflicted air space per se. we do conduct daily phonecalls to ensure that we have safe operating conditions. the russians only struck raqqa a small handful of times. that is not normally where they have been flying. most of the russian flights are concentrated more to the west of the area. we are striking both in the center of raqqa itself end of course through the countryside. there is no area where we are not able to strike with extraordinary precision so we will take our strikes wherever we deem necessary.

so, regarding the russians there hasn't been a problem there. they have taken a few strikes in raqqa but it's been a while and there hasn't been any problems with that. again we have these weekly calls with the russians to work out how to make sure our planes don't bump into each other or come into inadvertent contact and that is works fairly well. as general brown described on thursday so we will continue that. >> colonel warren hi. we are very much looking forward to her meeting and working with your successor. to follow up on fallujah you had seen -- said a few weeks ago you didn't see any military reason to liberate fallujah now. i realize a lot has happened since then i've be interesting to get your assessment on if you still feel that way and what they have changed in that time and how the coalition

understands that that's rationale for choosing this time to liberate fallujah? >> well, thank you for that. a smart question. what is it specifically was or contextually we were talking about fallujah as it relates to mosul. in other words you don't need fallujah in order to give mosul. mosul was there ultimate geographic goal. you have to take sinjar before you go to mosul because sinjar sinjar -- they'd be to try to go to mosul without taking sinjar first so that's an example of some place you have to go before you can go to mosul. fallujah doesn't fall into that