applying for welders are using their own production family. when a construction product destroys -- welder with one h-2b issue. the biggest projects are performed by -- not each one of these crafts has their own code and job description for construction. that includes performing welding. each of these union trades have registered apprenticeship programs for the specialized type of welding incidental to their trade and construction industry. i haven't come across any registered production company, apprenticeship program that treat -- rogan that teaches welding for -- teaches welding for chop shops. there really is no limit on what

type of welding these production motors can perform a they are left into one category. if they were to be assigned h-2b wages, than the wages would have been great if the american workers and in most cases they would be applied in the data sets one kept up on an annual basis. here are some examples for major construction projects. production welders -- a pipe filter does 23.05 per hour. and a bottle maker is -- two of those crafts would require higher wages. wasof the counties certified for construction pipefitters at 23.05 per hour. for 400ginally applied pipefitters and 200 production mothers. these production others have been classified -- should have been classified with a rate of --

the company is working on same construction project for the same general contractor for both occupations, this is not uncommon. just had another postage is a for another 100 production workers in the county area. the certification would be an issue for production welders. these h-2b certification shouldn't have to use a print on that she's a proper production circulation when applying for half to usehouldn't a proper production circular schwan applying for welders. the requirement is to take a welding test. this is also true in the marine industry. these companies are really chop shops and don't have asked me stamps. they're just applying labor to general contractors under construction companies that have a welding stamp. they are basically being a payroll administrator.

there are specific requirements and the h-2b program. the don't think these companies can meet the litmus test of the temporary need if it was applied to them that they just check on the 9142 application form. due to all of our concerns we theinue to discover that return workers have adhered under the h-2b for the last three years are not counted against the annual cap and making it worse for american workers. i'm even more concerned there is an effort to expand the cap further. and manyam is broken areas need major overhaul to protect american job opportunities and local community wage standards. system -- it is going to get worse if the system is an thick. my last statement is i am a , anded construction worker

it is a an insult to us to be considered on a low skilled occupation. we definitely should not be the h-2b classifications for guestworker programs. any available for questions. >> a pipe welder or bottle maker is classified as h-2b? >> we haven't seen any of those. but if you look at the occupational category that describes the skill levels, if you scroll down there they will also do welding. these are overlapping occupations used to create a one-stop shop welder. stewart, staff of the southern poverty law center immigrant justice project since 2011. he has represented hundreds of studentstworkers and

guestworkers in hospitality, seafood, landscaping, and forest industries and lawsuits, agencies and complaints, regarding violations of federal law and regulations. he is a graduate of smith college school of law. we would be glad to hear your statement. you chairman, ranking member schumer and other distinguished members of the subcommittee for the opportunity to speak. the southern poverty law center has her presented tens of thousands of h-2b guestworkers in lawsuits related to their pay and working conditions. we publish a report in 2013 about ht to guestworker programs -- about h 2 guestworkers. as the report reflects, h-2b

guestworkers are systematically exploited because of the very structure of the program placing them at the mercy of a single employer for their job and continued presence in the united states. guestworkers cannot change jobs to say they are mistreated. the program is rife with abuse. start longtypically before workers have arrived in the united states, when they are forced to pay enormous sums of money. because most workers who take these jobs are indigent, they typically have to borrow money to pay the fees. guestworkers are misled by recruiters. india wonworkers from a $14 million verdict against their employer signal for a humanl trafficking scheme that lowers the workers into paying .housands of recruitment fees

once they arrive in the united states, they labor in a system i can -- a system akin to servitude. can't change jobs. the workers only lawful recourse is to wreak -- is to return to his or her country. remain andrced to work for employers one even said jack did -- even subjected to shameful abuse. routinely receive less pay than the law requires. these are not subtle violations of the law, but the wholesale cheating of workers. already this year h-2b workers bailee 2.5 have won million dollars in back wages and other damages. other workplace abuses are common. of these workers can wait weeks

.r even months the h-2b regulations partially address this problem with a provision that guarantees h-2b workers a minimum of three fourths of the days of work they were promised. unfortunately the department of labor's enforcement of this regulation was the funded by a the 2016 appropriations act. fear of retaliation is another deeply rooted problem and one that is wholly wanted, because recruiters and employers hold overan inordinate power visa status. when guestworker stand up for the right, very -- for their rights, they are always subject to a form of retaliation. they put profound downward pressure on the wages and working conditions of u.s. workers. guestworkerssented

in settlements and judgments of nearly $50 million. there can be no doubt the impact of such pervasive wage violations is to depress wages in those industries. undercutsm also employer incentives to hire u.s. workers or to make jobs more appealing to domestic workers i improving wages and working conditions. the case filed by mississippi landscaping company illustrates this point. culpepper was certified for h-2b workers in 2014 by promising the government it would pay them a 11,000. -- pay them $11.11 per hour. once the workers arrived, this company paid him only $7.25 per hour. the u.s. workers they hired did not stick around. they u.s. workers who applied

for and accepted and $11 per hour job cannot be expected to stay on when they learned their actual pay is almost four dollars per hour less. be --per's a to culpepper's h-2b workers do not have the ability to move on to a different job. during the jury trial last year against signal international, a financial expert testified that signal potentially stood to save $20 million by virtue of this plan through 500 welder jobs -- 42-2b workers for 233 through three years. tow two to three years. we as americans have more obligation to ensure the individuals who come to our

country are treated with dignity. under the current structure of the h-2b program we are far from meeting that obligation. is permitted to continue at all it should not be expanded, but rather should be substantially reform to address the vast disparity of power. i welcome your questions. >> we have the director of immigration and law of policy research -- he is also an attorney. his current areas of research include a wide range of labor migration issues, including the management of temporary foreign worker programs. mr. costa. costa: thank you other distinguished members of the subcommittee for allow me to testify at this hearing.

i work for the economic policy institute, a think tank dedicated to advancing policies of fairness in the labor market. i am especially on its beaver for the subcommittee on immigration because i am the son of two immigrants to the united states, each of whom came to -- came from a different country. directnts and i are the beneficiaries of the american immigration system. we own this country for the opportunity it has presented to us. while i believe immigration really benefits the united states economically and culturally, the american immigration system needs many urgent reforms. eating the immigration system right to maximize the benefits andreduce the costs important incompetent to tasks that lawmakers face. when it comes to the american temporary foreign worker programs, these are guestworker visas immigrant programs. they're not functioning as they should. that i workers to a single employer and permit employees to legally underpay

their bonded migrant workers are a recipe for a disaster. they are by the fact in their very nature close to slavery. should seriously consider what a temporary foreign worker program should exist here at all. the h-2b program is mainly used to hire workers in landscaping and forster jobs, as well as hospitality, fish processing, construction, and restaurants. statutory language creating h-2b makes this clear. is intended to help employers who are experiencing a labor shortage, when employers can find u.s. workers to higher for lesser skilled jobs. the u.s. chamber of commerce claimedion works have the dire shortage of u.s. workers available for lesser and

unscheduled jobs. they lobbied congress to deregulate and vastly expand the h-2b workers to create similar workers to fill lower wage jobs. despite claims from industry groups, other than employer and anecdotes, --oyer in fact, the available evidence suggests the opposite. h-2b is in the top occupations have been declining. those are not the indicators of national labor shortages. no laborn't mean shortage exists anywhere. entirely possible shortages exists in some states or localities. the persistently high on appointment rate suggests even the employers experiencing local -- andhortage might find if they offer more attractive wages and benefits, including pay for transportation and

housing. if the h-2b program is to continue to exist, despite the lack of evidence necessary at all, there should be strong and enforceable rules requiring employers to hire any u.s. workers and pay their h-2b workers no less than the local average wage. while some advocates say some employers are required to pay the prevailing wage, it is obvious any rational or not evensted person -- enforced at all. when it comes to prevailing wage wills, my own research for the labor department, as well as evidence over litigation all proved that employers find ways to pay less than local average wages. one of the ways employers have done this is the use of private wage surveys, which are far less credible and scientific ways than deal less survey data. while the wage rules require workers to be an average wage, the average certified h-2b wage was more than $2.50 less per

hour than the average wage for landscapers in the united states. the fy 2016 appropriations expanded the use of private wage surveys, and being considered and the use of private wage survey should be abolished altogether. in conclusion it is obvious to me that the h-2b program is harming migrant and american .mmigrant workers it is not the case of migrants coming to the united states to americans.from h-2b workers were recruited and hired by u.s. employers. migrant workers cannot be blamed for keeping wages low. the low and stagnant wages are not the result of benign abstract economic forces either. they reflect conscious policy choices by lawmakers influencing powerful lobby groups to water protections.

it is their employers. h-2b employers cannot should be held to a higher standard. congress has to decide to required of them. >> thank you mr. costa. next we have dr. stephen -- labor economist. he previously led the department of economics and served as regions professor of economics andhe university of texas held faculty positions at georgetown university, university of pennsylvania, university of california santa dale university in texas. he has written extensively on economics and labor and employment practices. he received his phd in economics in 1983 from the university of chicago. bronars, we're glad to have you here. rs: thank you for

inviting me to testify about the program. disagreementbe the about the impact of the h-2b visa program on u.s. workers. this program allows nonagricultural u.s. employers to alleviate some seasonal labor shortages in some geographic areas i hiring foreign-born temporary workers. in my opinion the h-2b program benefits small businesses, workers, and consumers in the u.s.and does not harm workers. scaling back the program will have a negative effect on the revenue, the employment and wages on some seasonal industries. the increase in h-2b visas would benefit consumers and small businesses in the seasonal industries. entering thers u.s. will not press the wages of similar u.s. workers for several important we -- several important reasons.

are must demonstrate they unable to successfully hire domestic workers to fulfill these positions, establishing there are no directly competing u.s. workers. h-2b workers are required to pay a prevailing wage or more. set a15 final rule prevailing wage equal to the mean wage. in order to protect domestic workers. these wages are almost always higher than the wages paid to majority workers of the same occupation in the area. if they are able to find domestic workers to take the same kind of positions of the foreign h-2b workers, the mastic workers must be paid is prevailing wage. whether we compare the 66,000 visas being issued to the number of workers in the occupations must lightly to be filled by these workers, or whether we compare the size of the program to the number of adults in the labor force with a high school degree or less, which is the

skill must likely to be affected by this program, the inflow of h-2b workers is a fraction of 1%. even without the other protections the relatively small inflow would have a negligible impact on domestic wages. h-2b workers are also here temporarily. each year does not actually relate to become 660,000, because each year 66,000 workers arrive and leave later in the year. the program is simply too small and a guest workers are not here long enough to have a lasting and measurable impact on latest limit. let me explain what i think the program can accomplish. each recipient does not is place a domestic worker but instead fulfills a position that would have otherwise remained vacant. when a seasonal job vacancies filled, because it is better

able to increase output during the seasons, in addition permanent u.s. employees who are complementary to seasonal workers benefited from the program because of a reliable supply of temporary workers increasing their job security and income opportunities. in the money landscaping businesses, 1 -- -- one more lawn work needs to be done and needs to be done more frequently. the program could be helpful. and the managers and the and the mechanics who fixed the equipment, even the full-year groundskeeping workers will have more job security and higher-than-expected income, because they will be able to send amorphous and expand operations during the months peak demand. if we deny visas to these companies, it hurts not only the owners of the small business,

but the permanent employees of the small business and the customers as well. program provides several layers of protection for u.s. workers, a prevailing wage and labor market tasks makes the annual cap somewhat redundant. program can benefit u.s. workers by helping their employers adjust to seasonal fluctuations. the remaining costs to employers participating in the program, including transportation costs, the hiring of agents and attorneys, and uncertainty about whether the h-2b visas will be granted. the prevailing wage is a must always higher than the wage paid to a majority of similar workers means that h-2b workers are a labor supply of last resort for businesses facing shortages of temporary work is. because the worker protections h-2b will notm,

adversely effect u.s. workers, even if the annual cap was doubled or tripled. thank you. camorata. we have dr. testified before congress perhaps more than any fiscalrnment expert on impact of immigration. he has been featured on the front pages of the new york times, washington post, usa today, as well as other media outlets and published in a variety of journals. he received his masters degree from thecal science university of pennsylvania and a doctor's degree from the university of virginia and public policy analysis. thank you.

dr. camorata: i would like to thank you for inviting me to testify. my testimony is not focused on the h-2b program. issue focus on the bigger of whether the program is needed in the first place. the entire justification for the program is that the supply of domestic workers willing and able to do seasonal low skilled work in nonagricultural jobs is inadequate. in my view this argument is ridiculous. all of the data that the does that collection there is an abundant supply of workers in the united states. deal with piece of evidence that they are in short supply is testimonials from owners of business looking to import foreign labor. we can debate what the research shows about the impact of immigration on the wages or the employment of nativeborn americans. there is widespread agreement that wages have stagnated and

declined for lower skilled and less educated americans. vast majority of petitions are for lower wage jobs that require very low education and skills. thisfrom the first half of year shows that if we look at of petitions, two thirds h-2b jobs did not require experience and 95% said there was no education requirement. some of the top occupations were landscape made. production helpers, waiters, waitresses, dishwashers. these are not jobs requiring high skills that no american or even a legal immigrant here can fill. the majority of workers in these occupations were born in the united states. the idea that these are jobs that americans don't do is absurd. just to give you a quick example from 2004, the census bureau

shows 950,000 nativeborn americans, and they comprise three fourths of the occupation. there are almost 900,000 of them. two thirds of construction labor is born. there is over one million of them. they make up 70% of the cooks. the overwhelming majority of the are less education -- less educated nativeborn americans. the answer is quite simply terrible. real wages adjusted for inflation for workers more than a high school education are down 20% since the 1970's and even recent trends show no recovery. was a laborlly shortage wages should be rising rapidly has employers drive up wages in a desperate attempt to

retain attractive workers. wages to be an occupation shows no labor shortage. there was a 10% decline for food preparation and service workers and conservation workers, these are two of the biggest categories. more than 5% for ticket takers and security guards. in addition to the wage data, also looksent data abysmal. 42% of nativeborn americans 18 through 65 worked for the first quarter of this year. schoolople with a high education, it was only 65% to these represent a dramatic the

client from the historical average. there are 30 million nativeborn americans and immigrants already who have no education beyond high school and are not working. of these individuals want to work and can do so, it still represents a huge supply of potential less educated or unskilled labor. some of the biggest declines .ave been among the young only one third of teenagers worked. 20 years ago it was more than half. this was disconcerting because there was a growing body of research showing those who do ,ot work and they are young especially those that go on to college, often have trouble finding and retaining work throughout their lives. seems you have to learn the skills necessary to function in the labor market. there is no shortage of less educated workers. now employers may be forced to

play -- to pay more. higher wages and employment rates for the least educated and poorest americans should be seen as a positive thing, not something we try to stop through our immigration policies. >> i appreciate that. i believe we should be -- i believe it should be our goal to create circumstances and allow wages to keep up with inflation and actually grow faster. that is when you have a healthy economy. stagnation is part of the next american people are feeling today. the production molders considered a job under the h-2b program?

>> it is a classification. sen. sessions: they are not part of the h-2b program? >> yes, sir. those craftsen on out there, they just to not include the welding in those crafts. that is a basic format. if you look at the wage , every trades used that was on that list, and the very end there is a statement that rates are incidental. if there is a federal job that have federal dollars in it, they would have to classify those a oils doing welding as maker or welder. then they turn it around and use it as a different standard for the guestworker welders.

sen. sessions: i understand that you are both familiar with the analysis conducted by the congressional budget office on the effects of the returning year'sprovisions in this appropriations bill, in which a predicted that the provision would result in only about 8000 , which wasworkers clearly wrong when it was issued. i mentioned in my opening statement that as they received deskh print titian's enough petitions, but as of last week it was approved petitions for 12,000 additional returning workers per category as approved 11,700 law, with another -- with another 1171 pending.

ordinarily the approved petitions to not match up one for one with the number of visas issued. given that these workers were here before, isn't it likely the numbers will be relatively close? >> our senses absolutely, there is no way it is going to be 8000. previous experience suggests they always get it wrong. it turns out to be higher than anticipated. >> with regard to the temporary not -- one of the towns that has the most peak demand? i do think it is something that college students and even high school graduates aren't working in the summer today.

i worked construction, two summers, and it wasn't good for me. shows especially if you are not someone going on to college, it is important to work if you are a teenager. it turns out it is very hard to learn how to function in the world of labor if you tried learned when you are 27 rather than 17, like showing up on time and not telling your boss he is an idiot, even if he is. who happens to these people don't work when they are young as they often struggle to find and retain jobs, which is how long they have been tracked. sen. sessions: gone back to my original question, if the number is closely aligned and appears that the cbo underestimated the byber of returning workers,

september 30 we are talking about 14,000 now either approved or in the pipeline. >> it seems so and you have better data van available. on china find out how many returning workers are coming. sen. sessions: as of last month. that was a month ago. my hunch is that number won't be as high as it could be. the exemptione didn't go into force until after the first quarter of 2016. is fact of the matter employers didn't have time to plan and seek out returning workers. sen. sessions: with employers being able to use the opportunity even more, the numbers would be higher. believe there will be some impact. i believe the real impact will be in 2017 when employers have

time to go out and seek more workers. sessions: although we have a cap of 66,000 workers, as i mentioned in my opening statement, visas can be extended. and the numbers totaled 129,000 in 2006.122,000 if this returning worker vision is included, would you agree also with mr. costa that numbers would go up? >> there are a lot of people who stay. that is why we grant these exemptions. that is why you end up with a

lot more people than just the formal cap. >> from homeland security analysis that appeared last year , there are already approximately 100 15,000 h-2b workers in the united states at any given time due to extensions provided to workers who did not count against the cap. is that correct? >> there are extensions and even beugh h-2b job should certified for less than a year, a can be certified under the one time incurred -- one-time occurrence for up to three years. sen. sessions: thank you for your attention to these issues and your good participation on a whole host of issues and this one particularly. >> thank you. a lot of times it is just you and me so i get to ask a lot of questions.

i come at this from an interesting perspective, i am a senator from north carolina. sometimes i feel like i live on an island nation. the island of north carolina. hopefully with your indulgence i will stick around for a second round. in north carolina i was speaker of the house. reform measures, including verifying a number of things that deals with worker population. in 2011, north carolina had the highest unemployment in the nation. after we implemented over fivent reform, quarters, the unemployment rate went down to 6.4 percent, the most precipitous drop of any state in that nation over the time.

we had a lot of american workers who are unemployed and going back to work. i still hear from people who rely on the temporary worker don't havet they adequate people to fill the jobs. i come out of from this thatective from some data i encourage others to work at the sea were people migrated back to work. come in your opening comment you talked about how maybe some of these temporary jobs could be filled if employers spent more time recruiting outside of their geographic area or if the geographic area didn't have the perhaps you would have to increase the wages. many of these jobs are competing on a global basis. at what point does the cost of using that really make a point where it is cost prohibitive to other services workers?

i spent time with a commercial fisherman, they are not the employers of the h-2b workers, they are american-born folk going out into the estuaries. and bringing in shrimp and crab and fish. if they can't find workers at a reasonable price point we can already see substantially with imported shrimp to a lesser extent crab and other products. understand if you pay more for recruiting, pay for maybe transportation, pay for wages, then you can get more workers. at what point does that become an artificial objective? to be able to get to a reliable supply on a seasonal basis would simply make that seafood packet tell the commercial fisherman the american drivers, the distributors and the people selling the seafood produce in north carolina can no longer do

that. >> first the h-2b statute requires worker not be hired unless they are unemployed workers in this country. work closely with our employment security division to make absolutely certain they -- make-- makes absolutely certain they have added anyone -- whichionwide recruiting, means to me -- >> lets it we have a good base of people in california. safe sometime in may. pretend i am a business owner. how do i make these economics work. >> it seems to me it would be cheaper to offer california transportationr

to come to work in north carolina. if they declined it they could get h-2b workers. to be more expensive for cheaper than having to recruit a worker for mexico or bolivia? that would be a toss up there. >> that would be the case in 35 seafoodina about processors. save -- >> ionger have no doubt in my mind, not only do i love your sense of humor but i produce that but you produce some great information. you had a stunt double that looked like they were here. with respect to worker conditions, if you know of a youle example of conditions

are talking about in north carolina or more examples, i want to know about them. we address any issues of migrant workers. i don't have any doubt there is fraud in this process. down to makeck them obey the law. if you continue to think in my case in the state of north jobs will be these filled, i think we run into an economics problem. to where we will simply decide to exit markets. as a result we will impact american workers we don't get this right. i went over my time. >> well done.

next, mr. blumenthal. thank you for your active participation in the committee and your interest in these issues. >> with an apparent lack of enforcement, the problems in this program have been persistent and prevalent. rife, the seem to be evidence is overwhelming. i want to ask to be inserted in to the record a couple of documents, one from the national recruitment working group, a coalition of civil rights groups. letter.ve submitted a we have asked of these letters be included in the record.

the evidence shows that some employers have attempted to recruit american workers. they can commit wages and our violations. all of these abuses fly in the face of what the h-2b program is intended to do. they will help american businesses grow and thrive when there is no america to do with the job. cosigned with seven of my colleagues that would improve the program and serve its intended purpose. the obama administration has been thwarted by opposition in the senate. those rules have failed to have

the full impact that they should. there is really at monumental problem with enforcement. you,e begin by asking because you detailed very graphically and powerfully in thattestimony, h-2b results in invulnerable workers workers inited contact with bad active recruiters, charging exorbitant and then they work in essence to pay off their debt. when they discover their job is not what it was promised, they are shackled to that job because of their obligation to pay off the debt. are the protections currently contained in the h-2b regulations officially strong to prevent this kind of new's?

if not, what can be done to strengthen and enforce it? >> thank you for your questions, i know you have been a champion of these issues in terms of getting fair labor recruitment measures. you are correct that it is our veryience that it is difficult to hold international recruiters liable for that tends to use have worker so deeply in debt when they are here in the united states. though the 2015 h-2b regulations do substantially improve upon existing protections, they don't go far enough. congress needs to more carefully and vigorously regulate international recruiters so there is more transparency in the recruitment process and more accountability. needs to bere

written disclosures given to workers about the terms of their employment. we think there needs to be a public registry of recruiters who have to post a bond to ensure they can be included in that registry. think employers should be held liable for the bad acts of the recruiters who are essentially their agents in foreign countries. those are the type of protections we really need in order to protect foreign workers, h-2b workers who come to the country and are deeply in debt. >> if the employers were held accountable for the tactics and abuses of their agents, the foreign recruiters will act with their implicit knowledge, and even if they don't act explicit instruction they are still agents for all purposes. that would have a significant effect, wouldn't it? >> absolutely. i think that would place a

larger burden on employers to ensure they are not using fly-by-night recruiters and other countries. >> thank you. any other members of the panel want to comment on that? thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you very much. we have another hearing with the transportation secretary of commerce, i'm sorry i missed your testimony. i did read some of it. to say the program in my state, we have a big tourism industry in northern minnesota. we have trouble getting workers, there are a lot of workers that come down from canada, students, younger people. the local resorts rely on the h-2b visa. i crocheted the chairman having this hearing. obviously we need protections in place to protect u.s. workers.

onfocus today is going to be the h-2b program and the effect it would have on local businesses, seasonal industries. for example one of our most popular vacation spots, issa just you visit there, has around 500 employees, including about 85 who are international. can you elaborate on the house scaling back the program being helpful to solve businesses that are in an area right near the canadian border? >> thank you very much. before i answer that question, we had some testimony about fact that wages are stagnant and there is not enough economic growth and not enough jobs. this program is a small narrow tailored program. it is not going to solve all these programs -- all these

problems. resorts that compete with resorts all over the pace -- all over the place. m and their connecting with canadian resorts? >> exactly. there aren't enough people in the town to fill all those positions. the 66,000 visa limit is so tiny compared to the size of the u.s. economy. you are not going to see the shortages in the aggregate eight at this program can help fix. helped fixm shortages that a very localized and specific. if these businesses cannot during the pcs and ramp up their production of services whether hospitality, or what is going to happen is it is going to be like saying to a retailer you are not going to be able to take full advantage of the holiday season.

protecting u.s. workers and small business owners that are in the same businesses. in the winter we may not have quite as much tourism as we do in minnesota. so we have a big flood of tourism in the summer. we have some in winter with ice fishing and snowmobiling. but we have less of it. we have eu noted that the h-2b workers are last resort for businesses facing shortage of temporary workers. what efforts of the required to undertake to hire domestic workers before they are allowed vise?ition for an h-2b >> they have to advertise for anse positions and make attempt to hire u.s. workers for these jobs. if they can find them for the advertised jobs they will have wage, that prevailing

same whether it is a u.s. worker more the h-2b worker, so that is part of the rule and i think it should be in forest and i know there has been a question about how well it is enforced by the way it is written, that is what they should have to do. >> last year a letter to the andrtment of labor department of homeland security emphasizing the importance of consistent processing of the visas after the processing had been temporarily halted. what are some of the negative consequences of a delay or stoppage in processing in terms of the operation of the small ?usiness >> for a lot of these jobs, you need to workers to be there at a particular point that time. delays that could

happen and the processing could be costly to the business is to not be able to get the workers into these positions when their services are needed. it.hank you, we appreciate case -- we actually had a snowfall season before last in north carolina. >> can we correct the record? thank you. [laughter] over the years, for many years, people in my age would go resorts in the great west and i have fun memories of doing that. memories of doing that.

all, it is better for america, is it not, that jobs if possible can be filled by americans yet come many of whom if they are now working when be receiving benefits of some form or another from the government. huge supply of people with not a lot of skills or education working. those are unprecedented unity would be great if we could retrain them to be computer programmers but the kinds of jobs they can do are exactly that jobs that people are being allowed to bring in foreign workers for it. if you ever have any hope of bringing people back into the labor market and getting labor force participation like they were, he will have to put them in these jobs for the most part. the other question is, when employers say i cannot find

anyone, to next question should be, how much have you increased wagers? we have shortages but the data shows large wage increases. if there is a shortage, there should be a wage increase. it seems like what the employer wants to do is keep them down. perfectly understandable. should this congress be complicit in that desire? >> our free-market friends need to recognize that there is a market in labor and wages and when wages are not going up, you do not have a shortage. mr. cunningham, briefly, in your opinion, based on your experience, or they are workers in the construction industry feeling jobs that americans would do? there definitely are, especially the jobs that are advertised at 10 right wage,

more american workers might apply for those jobs. if you are example, the unemployed union pipefitter -- i am a welder -- and i go to an unemployment center and i apply for that job and i see the job posting -- here is a job paying a little bit more that is only two or three weeks, i would probably take that one over a production welder -- 10 months long at a lower wage. i am not going to apply for the job that is not what i'm used to working for in my standard of living. it is advertised as a pipefitter -- -- it might look that they might look at that and say i might want to take a job. >> you details some problems with advertising and wages that are not accurate or do not

properly provide opportunities for american workers. it seems to me that one of the questions to wrestle with is something north carolina did a which is dealing with incentivizing people to not be on benefits but to go to work. i think that was a helpful trend. --it possible -- secondly most americans would like a permanent job and not a short-term job. there is no doubt about that. if you have a second job that's going to be a year, 10 years, as whered to one construction job is going on six months, you would rather take a permanent job. seems to me to short-term job should pay more.

could you -- is it possible that ofcan use the incentive welfare reform and have welfare reform that could make it incentivize people to work at a job that my last just six months even though they would prefer a permanent job and could that experience helped them find a permanent job in the future? -- it isa perfectly perfectly reasonable to argue that the buffer system does not incentivize work but the fraction of people using welfare actually doing but they also collect benefits but if you want that as your goal, i hear wages is one of the best ways to get to that goal and as you point out, we know that once people start working it tends to build on itself just in the way that once people do not work that tends to build on itself and create problems down the road. people do not like to hire somebody who has not worked in a while it is not have the

experience. thatt-time job can be just lake into the labor market. >> next my question is driven by a rather significant increase plan increase in the program has though of the downturn opined that we can do well without it at this point there is no plan to eliminate a program. we are talking about whether it should be increased and actually probably more than doubled. >> thank you. i got a lot of questions for you but i would like to start with the concept of all we have to do create amore money to broader labor force. hospitality is different than seafood packing. seen any research on

well let's just hypothetically or aase wages by 50% certain industry that complete -- compete globally -- is there any research out there that says you simply get to a point where the american product without the competitive? -- i haven't how seen research specifically but it depends on how labor-intensive the industry is. it is going to -- >> major input -- >> it is going to raise cost, , you are going to have a harder time competing in a world market. it is one of the things that businesses are facing whether it is in seafood or agriculture and so that is going to be put real limits on the small businesses pay they cannot just dictate the prices -- >> i know -- >> marketplace or neglect of carolina shrimp almost never buy

for an important if it is available and i am willing to fortunately be a lot of pay a premium for it that we all know you reach a point to where the beentinian red shrimp will picked carolina white shrimp because people cannot just pay for it and they want shrimp that night. it seems to me that in certain categories and again i think everyone if you by the way my father was an ironworker. i think in every case you can and abuse, examples were neighboring the wages are not consistent with with the prevailing wage should be a discussion about ending the h-2b ingram needs to be couched that if you are looking to kill american jobs because i absolutely think that it will happen in a we have to do is have people prevail in we will see it happen. we'll see people go i have business -- no doubt -- maybe that is what we need to do to prove the point? hopefully we can get those jobs. he also want to talk about

something you said. look, i really -- i believe in is to north carolina unlike four seasons.have before you got a program or somebody is able to define a season is more than 12 months have looks to me as an area that we need to look to either improve enforcement or reform the law because that doesn't make sense to me. there may be a temporary status that we should look at separately by the seasonal factors that drive certain industries are reopened it if you are talking about seafood processing in alaska -- i was talking with senator murkowski who say they have about a seven-week fishing season there for seafood processing -- who is going to go to the outrages of alaska where nobody lives for seven weeks of income and consider that a lifestyle? have for you also has to do with do we see any differences were legitimately

seasonal factors drive employment practices and when i think about north carolina is really diverse state -- we have the mountains where it snows. also has a very vibrant spring and summer tourism season. have elected any regions where the prospect of an american worker to have a 12 month job makes them more likely or you can opine on this too -- makes it more likely that a higher percentage of those jobs will be fared well in american workers because they can get a 12 month job versus eastern north carolina and elsewhere where you don't have the population pays -- the year-round population base and it isn't temporary workers then they only be looking 5-6 months of work for-503-4 in the seafood industry? first of all, the industries that we see using the hd -- hp program -- seasonal -- the states where bring in workers

have these kind of seasonal patterns details attended a more out-of-the-way places, right you can when we are talking about how well do we measure wages and in plaintiff people are out of work there is a difference between with a population centers and hardware some of these jobs are which is whe the issues that we have been talking about here so you not only have what you have seasons, you have a certain industries i think heions and was said that most of the jobs that are in these occupations are held by workers here in the u.s.. we are talking about a fraction of a percent. >> by the way if you have ever been to the outer banks you will know it is out there -- it is a part of north carolina but it for us ton hours drive to the outer banks to ensure that it happens to be one of the least populated most -- then i should say banked by one of the most least populated most rural areas of the state so you to't have that you get them than problem that we discussed if you have to go further route to secure those resources than i

think that you do run into -- you run into economic problems for running a business -- >> one other thing that if you please businesses it is gearing important to you. it is a small part of the total of the u.s. economy. but as i don't to certain businesses in certain locations and -- >> you are going to allow another round of questions? i will my question. -- i will hold my question. think sen. johnson: said. good point. we tend to think in terms of a .lobal marketplace there is a global competitive marketplace out there. but, i am will lay the american people are wary of wages are not going down or flat. and corporate interests doing pretty well. relative to much -- but they continue to use various

andities to contain costs maintain -- but the average guy is having a hard time -- that is just a fact. theseare a lot of businesses like landscaping -- i am watching my hotel in iwatch very closely now -- people i see that are working on landscaping are not for the most part i believe immigrants or visa-orders. -- things like construction work. jobs are big part of the that i think got to be carefully watched to make sure we are not the nationalith rise of wages that should occur in america that has been occurring. that is the only thing i would say although we do need to be careful about it and i think this project program has some validity to it and if properly managed but it is hard to manage it.

regard to the people, we know since 2009 i believe we have had some 15,000 reported has absconding by their employers. they take a job and got into the country on a visa and they went their own way and didn't complete their work. do we even know the people who or monthsheir years of work -- if they actually leave the country? >> as you know, the general estimates are that about 4 million -- 40% of the illegal .mmigrants are visa overstays i have never seen an estimate for this particular program that we would expect that over time, thousands of people will overstay and we will not know lcause that is how blacks

we do not track departures. >> lovely, initially, on a visa, but not return it i think i saw reason numbers and have a million overstayed their visas last year. ms. stewart, on your evaluation, could the government do a better job of enforcing the laws that the worko protect american workers -- is that feasibility -- you have been doing it during the lawsuit private sector -- is it -- are there any suggestions that you have maintain more integrity in this system? >> sure, thank you for the question senator.

i think the department of labor has attempted over the years to implement more robust protections for u.s. workers and h-2b workers and those protections each year or each time they enact them have been joined byk or employer-driven litigation or appropriations measures. not all of them that some of the key protections per so i think the first step would be to stop making changes to their program to appropriations measures, the department of labor implement and enforce the protections that exist for workers and we also think there should be more protections to nature that workers are not subject to the abuse that we have seen over the years and this program. we would recommend certainly , more funded to the department of labor's that they can do their job to enforce the protections that exist and congress should regulate recruitment of internationally-recruited workers to make sure they are not subject to false promises

and extreme debt. we shouldn't there should be better was about protections for h-2b workers so that way they complain about on working conditions and depressed wages, they are not retaliated against, that there is not a chilling effect on their right to defend their rights and we also think h-2b workers should have better access to the courts by making them eligible for federally-funded legal services. finally we think it would help to overhaul the structure of the has workers tied to a single employer. as long as that structure exists, the program is going to lead to exploitation of h-2b workers and make them preferable to employers than u.s. workers. >> thank you. you, mr. chair. mr. cunningham, i want to square up with some north carolina

specifics. i mentioned my father was an iron worker. he did that until he was in his 30's. one of the things we had to focus on when i was in the ofislature was the shortage training skills in north carolina. we spent a lot of money in our a grays, we got community college system in north carolina, we do a lot of collaboration with businesses to train people up and taken certified in trades. why am i having to spend money on having to do that if there is a dearth of resources available for these jobs? >> thank you, senator. and by that, i do mean, in one year, at $10 million appropriation to try and attract people into these traits. >> it is really all about training. and training workers for these that which we are seeing most companies do not want to invest in training and recruit workers into a good middle-class

living -- >> i am referring to the comments in your testimony which is that we already have available trained resources, they are just being displays in other words there is a dearth of available resources -- just a matter of matching them to the next step which is training. my experiences we need training because at least in north carolina we do not appear to have the labor supply at the need so we are spending taxpayer dollars to infuse training programs in over community college system to bring the people and others are saying that there is a dearth of available people willing to work already -- i am just trying to square that with just just to get north carolina. >> senator, construction is not a permanent job. there are ups and downs. you are good job, get laid off -- of my dad went like i spent many years traveling all over the country because work is not available in our area. i will say that the unions have

caused the biggest network of trained force that are ready to going travel to an area where they need workers the unions have those jobs -- they are going to go -- they are going to take care of their families and keep the benefits going and i said -- that is what we do in construction. we need more investment in training like some of the other models in other countries -- we global economy in europe that have mandatory apprenticeship programs. >> would that suggest that there is at least a skills gap somewhere that we would need to make and i'm assuming either businesses are taxpayer dollars to the scale at the resources so we have a qualified -- we have a more consistent flow of workers to fill these jobs for right now their work visas and i will -- full disclosure -- it is not an area of the program i focus the seafood and hospitality industry that i was just curious -- it is an outlier in houston north carolina.

-- at least in north carolina. >> depends the part of the country where the unemployment is at and what you need. had we found is we have workers apply for these h-2b jobs and they have been denied for a qualified workers -- these countries really don't want to hire american workers and i'm speaking mostly in the construction industry -- i am not speaking for all of that -- i am not really involved in that when you have workers -- qualified workers and richard and apply for these jobs and these companies go out there in the interview and the leader don't return your call or they lie on the regarding reports, we've got people available to fill the jobs but that is what we need more enforcement in that is why in my statement -- if you go back and look, is these companies out there and should be part of the process. we've got enough unemployed people in this country to train to do construction work. so, we've had so many other

issues where we find these contractors had to bring in these visa workers -- they are now and the intended areas of employment it if you look at my statement for the record, i give you a lot of issues -- >> and incidentally that is an area i mean i think even though the chair and i may have some differences on the margins i think when it comes to fraud, when it comes to any demonstrable areas of our conditions, those sorts of things, when he did time up the legislation that is necessary but i will tell you, i went out in eastern north carolina -- my staff is been up to with me a couple of times and i wonder why speakingthat generally i guess probably the enrollment papers and the application -- probably about that many pages to higher an american worker for a job. and that involves your you do not have an hr person because the small businesses are the hr person -- that involves the manager, the owner processing is handled paperwork and getting it done that when you hire a visa

worker the paperwork stack is about that thick and you have to become inexpert in dealing with consulates, you have to be an expert in dealing with private surveys, you have to have an expert in the department of labor to actually do their job where they say they have a shortage of resources, like any sane person would prefer to go through this process including the variability of it in the inability to plan from season to season tells me that if they really just want to hire temporary worker when there is a resource -- maybe they have to pay one dollar more an hour -- then they are not a sane person and so if there are people out there -- i want to go through the hassle of dealing with the seekal government, then medical attention, because it doesn't make sense. what i want to do -- i'm the very process-oriented person,

systematic person, want to find but actors and stop them, to assume -- and we are only talking about hb two, we're not talking about h one or other things that have their own pluses and minuses an impact on american worker opportunities. on this temporary program, i mr. chair, heate, spent in the amount of time that you have. we need to peel back these layers -- layers and have a more hands-on approach it i don't know -- i suspect some of y'all have that i had spent days out in the state of north carolina touring facilities, to everyone's after we passed legislation, and the steward, in north america -- particularly in agriculture -- to get a -- i mean, a birds eye view of the respect, thath runs counter -- and, with the regulatory reform, the work we did in north carolina, it was counter to some of your experiences -- some of it may be

but a be explained by regional differences but i hope that will continue this discussion and really get things in the final that address some of the legitimate concerns that have been expressed here but also address what i think is a legitimate concern that we could have an economic impact that could put american business out of business and american workers if youwork, and then, want to see the stagnation -- and again, with a relatively small percentage of the population, i think that many people have a disproportionate view of the number of people that are coming in on this program -- i am only talking about this program -- we have a situation with illegals are really causing a big pressure on good actors to the hb two program because they are competing illegally or that's got to get fixed that is a major problem. i think we need to be very without a goal and how we go about this and recognize, you cancel this program, and you

will cancel american jobs. thank you, mr. chair. >> well, i don't think we need to increase -- and i'm going to i dot them steadfastly and worry that we've got 94 million people in this country outside the workforce. that from 2000-2014, we had an increase in the population of -- what percentage of the jobs that were created during that time went to or illegal? >>al roughly speaking if we look at the working age, 16-65, on the job growth went to immigrants between 2000-2014 even to the negative one account from within 60% of population growth in networking his population so you would have gotten around 60%

increase in employment -- did not turn out that way. it is a net figure, so. >> i am just worried about it. trends that there are troubling, that our government needs to understand that perhaps we can do better. a man in mobile then you do 4000 workers for a shipyard on short order. the state moved in with their job training program and some advertisement him he met the challenge. i was really worried that this company might be disappointed in all investment because they couldn't get the workers -- they were not readily available, they had to be trained but the wages and all that attracted them, they came in the numbers and they are very happy with their workforce, so i do think it does appear, to me, that businesses are more demanding that when a y expand

form out the door if people .erfectly ready to take a job but, with over good job training programs, if we spend more money or were more smart about it i think we could get more people ready to take jobs when they are needed in some people won't move and i understand and respect that in some people will move if it is financially worth it. one european executive told me that he thought the american people were the most mobile workers in the world and is one of the great strengths of americans is that you could set up a plan to people would come from around the country if they had a good job and a limit of -- a lot of people in europe apparently like to stay with a have always been raised, so it is the strength of american vitality. so you went up with the situation where we have 38,000 increased when .e expected 150 based on population growth, is

it about 200,000 a month then need to be created to maintain level unemployment rates? >> interns in the employment rate, it is way down from where it has been historically low you would need about two hundred thousand jobs a year just to keep it at the current level, given the level of immigration tetramer, 100,000 immigrants coming or more each month so you need a lot of jobs just for that but if you assume the current level of integration and natural population increase the needed 200,000 jobs a month. >> well, anything else? you wanted to tell or ask if you're pointed out that trend of younger people now working a potentially filling some of these jobs, i have made my first payment to the social security when i was 12 years old in 1973 -- i have not missed a year ever since and i have been a full-time job since i was 16 years old. i do not see culturally where

that is an option. i wish that it was. i mean, if you have any specific we buttresson how some of this work, i ensure women of to have any suggestions for things as a matter of policy to look at to see how we create that sort of culture. that, i did have a question on returning workers -- it will be my last question, mr. chair, i promise. one thing that i just ask. i am pleading ignorance here. but it seems to me that returning workers demonstrate the most reliable users of the h-2b program, which is to say they come, they work, they call home, they return. and it is my understanding that some of these returning workers tend to make because their skill sets in the reliability or are such tend to make pretty good -- some of them get into

supervisory positions -- have you done any work on that? only looked at what they are offering and jobs -- $12 $.40 an hour. >> he were looking at a returning were coming back into the business enterprise they are accustomed to, they typically do the lay of the land, they can be trainers forr people and 80 coming in for the first time. so, it just seems to me in some ways that these are people who are following the system. they are working on a seasonal basis. they have very clear patterns so they have very good connectivity because leona you got to work with the consulate and there have to be like batteries did in the strata they do go back to their countries so i think that sometimes we get into discussions about returning workers and it just seems to me that in some ways, they are the best, most reliable resources for using the program. i will let you have to final comment and i will want him i promise not to ask another

question but i could be your own day. >> i actually think it is a smart way to increase the gap because we have heard about the abuses that if people are coming back, it must have been in good experience both for the worker and for the employer, so, and understanding is the better enforcement heard on the the employers who use this program areplay by the rules painted with a broad push saying they are these abuses and people are percent -- misrepresenting this and hand there are a lot of people he is a program and using it according to the roles way they are written if the workers are coming back, i think that is not only a reliable company must have been a two experience that was beneficial for both sides. again, i don't know how you feel about it and i am not going to ask another question that i may follow up with another but it seems to me if somebody is coming back to want to go to maybe there are examples are outliers but it would be more likely that they would have had a better work

experience -- >> mr. chair, i just want to thank you for your time and your focus on this issue and your leadership. i really do enjoy this committee -- >> thank you, thank you very much for your participation invaluable contributions. none of the obama administration's policies of deportation, anybody that comes into the country that overstays their visa is probably never going to be deported, is that right? enforcers -- yes, interior enforcement, the visa overstay are the person he is sets across the border, those people, as you have her testimony on this before -- they have almost a zero chance of ever being deported. [indiscernible] secretary clinton said [indiscernible] -- convicted of a violent crime. >> essentially -- in a sense,

not just a fact when he to keep in mind as we wrestle with these issues, so i would like to offer into the record statements that have been received from the flc unions,pe the trade labor international union of north america, unite here in addition to documents in the mr. cunningham -- thank you -- provided to the subcommittee. if there is nothing else, we will stand adjourned. thank you very much. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2016] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]