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we make policy on the assumption of spirit of russia is actually very little different from the spirit of the united states. this is one of the reasons why we often are surprised by russian behavior.

if we take it for granted that the leaders of a country are dedicated to the national interest and the welfare of the population of the country we find it hard to understand a country in which leadership is totally indifferent to the welfare of the population. if we take it for granted that the human individual is an end in himself, we find it hard to deal with the country in which individuals are raw material for the realization of the political goals of the political leaders. and many of those goals are very bizarre indeed. for this reason there's always a danger that we will mistake russian actions. one of the most important things to bear in mind about russia is that war is an instrument of internal policy. the first chechen war was launched in order for there to

be a short, victorious war that would boost the rating of, at that point, president yeltsin, who was suffering because of the aftereffects of privatization and impoverishment of the population. the war proved to be neither short nor victorious. second chechen war was undertaken in order to guarranty the succession to yeltsin and this is one of the most important episodes of russian history also one which americans are very much in the dark. a terrorist act took place t was used to justify a new war in chechnya. putin, who was very little-known, became the prime minister, took charge of that war and on the strength of the successful prosecution of that war was elected president. later the bombs that were placed

began to appear very suspicious. a fifth bomb was found in the city of riazon found outside of moscow. the persons who put it in the basement of that building that turned out not to be chechen terrorists but agents of the fsb. the war broke out again as a result of the events in ukraine where a self-organizing, anti-criminal revolution demonstrated to the russian people potentially how it might be possible to resist the klepto democratic authorities in charge of their own countries. diversionary effort was made to distract russians from the true lessons of euro-midan. when the resistance of the ukrainians proved, greater than

the russians expected a new diversionary operation was launched in syria to distract the russian population from what was going on in ukraine. under these circumstances, one of the most important things that the united states can do is reinforce the deterrents to using war in this manner and also to make renewed efforts to reach the russian people about the true activities and motivations of their authorities. so that they're not just unwitting instruments in the hands of, in the hands of their leaders but are in a position finally to make their leaders answer to them. this is the intellects wall challenge that -- intellectual challenge that faces american policy. over and above and complimentary

to strengthening the purely practical aspects of deterrents on which in fact european stability and world stability depend. >> thank you very much for that. mr. kara-murza. thank you very much, chairman kocher, senator shaheen hold -- >> senator markey stepped in too. >> senator mark kirks thank you so much for being here. thank you for the opportunity to testify to appear before you today. 25 years ago at a conference held of all places in moscow, members for the organization of security and cooperation in europe established a principle issues relating to democracy, human rights and rule of law, i quote, matters of legitimate concern to all participating states and do not belong exclusively internal affairs of the state concerned. to the council of europe, russian federation has you know

taken clear and binding commitments with respect to election standards, freedom of expression, freedom of assembly and other important aspects of human rights. all these principles enshrined in the russian constitution. in 16 years nearly a full generation in power, vladmir putin turned these regimes and principles into a dead letter. today elections in our country serve as mere ritual for ordaining incumbents with most people simply disqualified from the ballot. with voting marked by intimidation and fraud. after march 2:00, more than 16 years, not a single national election in russias about been free and fair by osc and coins of europe observers. according to independent estimates, 14 million votes were stolen in the ruling party in favorite of in 2011, followed by the largest street demonstrations under vladmir putin rule as more than 100,000

people went to the streets in moscow to protest fraud. certainly the vote in september are not promising. new restrictions on campaigning and observation, and establishment after new national guard that will be allowed to use force and shoot without warning in event of mass demonstrations after the election. for more than a decade the russian parliament is devoid for genuine opposition. not a place for discussion in unforgettable words of its own speaker. the same applies to most media outlets. after taking over and shutting down independent television networks in early years of mr. putin's rule they control all airwaves, uses to stop the outside world as well as mr. putin's political opponents at home, announced as traders, foreign agents and enemies of russia. few surviving pockets of media independence are under pressure as we saw with the recent

editorial purchase of rbc media group following its coverage of the "panama papers." the police, prosecuting authorities and courts are used by the kremlin as tools for suppressing and punishing dissent. according to memorial, russia's most respected human rates organization, there are 87 political prisoners in our country. number already comparable with the late soviet era. they include leftist politicians, the brother of anti-corruption campaign, and opposition activist jailed in new law that targets individual street protests and the the remaining hostage of the yukos case. include prisons of the case that were jailed they came out on the streets to oppose mr. putin inauguration. those that oppose vladmir putin ledge people risk their well

being and freedom but risk their lives. on 2th of february last year, boris nemtsov, former leaders of russia's pro-democracy opposition was killed by five bullets in the back as he walked home over the bridge just 200 yards from the kremlin wall. a year on the investigation into his murder is stalling. although they have apprehended the alleged perpetrators, investigators have been unable to pursue the organizers and the masterminds. in fact according to media reports attempts to track the higher ups were personally vetoed by the head of russia's investigative committee. despite obvious links between the murder suspects and kremlin appointed chechen leader kadirov, he has not been formally questioned in the case. i can personally talk about russian opposition. one year ago i fell into a coma

because of severe poisoning that led to multiple organ failure certainly intended to kill. doctors told my wife here today the estimated my chance of survival at around 5%. so i'm very fortunate and happy to be here today to be speaking and testifying before you. our friends in the west often ask how they can be helpful to the cause of human rights and democracy in russia. and the answer to this is very simple. please stay true to your valladares use. we're not asking for your support. it is our task to fight for democracy and rule of law in our country. the only thing we ask from western leaders they stop supporting mr. putin by treating him as respectable and worthy partner and by allowing mr. putin's cronies to use western countries as havens for their looted wealth. the united states has been a pioneer in putting a stop to this. nearly four years ago this congress passed the sergey mag knit sy act, groundbreaking law

that introduced personal accountability for corruption. i would like to use this opportunity to thank you, senator cardin for your leadership and commitment on this issue. testifying before this committee, in this very room i was here with him on that day in june 2013. boris nemtsov called the magnitsky act the most pro-russian law in the history of any foreign parliament. i hope the law is implemented to full extent without regard to range or influence and these crooks and abusers get a full message, that they will not be welcome here. that would be the best possible way to support the cause of human rights in russia. thanks once again for the opportunity to testify. >> thank you both for your testimony and certainly i appreciate the personal, deep commitment you have and personal

experiences. we have a vote. i'm going to turn over to senator cardin for questions and senator cardin, what i will do is go vote so we can flip that. i want to thank you, and appreciate your mention of the magnitsky act. and senator cardin's leadership for rules on human rights issues and particularly for causing this to be in law. thank you very much. >> let me thank the chairman for his incredible support in regards to this committee focusing on human rights issues and let me thank you, mr. kara-murza, for being here. i know its with a long trip from russia to come and visit. we thank you that your wife is here and we're thankful that you are healthy. we know the personal risk that you've taken. let me just update you. first on the sergey magnitsky

global efforts we're making, that the legislation we passed aimed towards russia can be used to help all countries protect the rights of their citizens. you're absolutely right, the moscow document of 19 the 890 made it very clear -- 1990, made it clear commitments to human rights are not internal matter of the country by of internal interest of the osce so the sergey magnitsky enforces that. if russia doesn't take actions against abusers we'll not give them benefits of our country. as i indicated in my opening statement we have applied that numerous times in the united states against russians who have violated basic human rights and not been held accountable by their government and we believe it can be further used. today on the floor of the united

states senate by a unanimous consent all 100 senators, once again, second time, confirmed that the magnitsky law should be global. so we anticipate by the end of this congress that we will in fact have a global magnitsky law so we can take the, what our experience from russia and use it in other countries. as you know, russia's influence is also in other countries so it would be helpful. i want to drill down a little bit on your comments personal safety. it's so important to put faces on issues of the we saw that with sergei magnitsky we talk about a bill that puts 50 people in prison it rolls off the national news stories pretty quickly but when you a put a face through what an individual has gone through and your personal presence today makes a huge issue and thank you for

doing that the elections are in september. what type of opportunities do you believe opposition forces will have in russia both directly participating in the elections and then expressing their views in regards to the parliamentary elections? will there be an opportunity for opposition participation? and you indicated that the protests after the 2011 was pretty embarrassing to russia. what do you anticipate will be done in the russian public believes these elections are not fair and want to express themselves, how will the government respond? >> thank you very very much. senator cardin, for the question and thank you for your efforts on the global magnitsky act. i completely associate with what you said. protection of human rights is universal, so i think the responsibility for violating

human rights should be universal too. on your question about the elections as i mentioned in the opening statement we haven't had a free and fair national election in russia more than 16 years if we take the gold example of the osc european election. we have no expectation the election coming up in september will be free and fair new restrictions imposed on election observers and journalists cover election, and restrictions imposed on campaign, new national guard prepared by kremlin in event of the protests we saw in other places in september 2011 and 2012. there is on going debate in the opposition whether we should participate in the rigged and unfair elections. i believe yes, we should and my colleagues believe, yes we should. we can use this flawed and manipulated and rigged electoral

process in order to help get our message across, get through that wall of propaganda and lies that's been built up by the regime and also i think very importantly to help this young generation of pro-democracy and civil society activists in our country, to go through that process and gain political experience they will need in the future and they will come when russia has a free and fair election. we have to start preparing that for now. the open russia movement i have honor representing for districts for the state duma across the country, a wide geography from st. petersburg and going around the country with taking in events and meetings with voters in st. petersburg a few weeks ago. i am seeing how necessary and important that is. i think it is also important to mention we have the opportunity

to participate in this election this year thanks to boris nemtsov. 2 1/2 years ago in 2013, he won a legislative seat and according to russian law a party represented in at least one of the regional legislatures in russia does not need too collect signatures in order to have access to the ballot. putin usually uses signatures as filter to get unwanted can diets off the ballot to disqualify them. because we have the opportunity, peoples freedom party found and led by boris nemtsov has the opportunity. our candidates will be on the ballot in september. i think it is also, very important for our partners in the osc, including the united states to pay attention to what will be going on, to pay attention to potential fraud. to send robust monitoring mission as much as possible. i know there will be osc parliamentary session coming up in july in tbilisi. it will be very important to raise that issue there should be

robust observation of the russian parliamentary election in september. if there are cases of fraud and they should be publicized and talked about and paid attention to because the only thing this regime is frayed of public reaction. we saw how afraid they were of the mass protests in the winter of 2011 and 2012. the whole world should be watching closely as the september election approaches especially as we both mentioned today, election standards and human rights are not an internal affair. >> congressman smith and senator wicker will be leading a delegation to tbilisi in july. i will make sure that the russian election is part of our priorities for that discussion. we will participate with the osce in monitoring. we make sure we report accurately what happens in russia. we are concerned though knowing what happened in the previous

election that there could be some personal safety issues associated with participation in this election. do you have that concern? >> well, as you know i've had some to worry about personal safety. many of my colleagues also obviously peace this risk on a daily basis but i think, you know, those of us who, who are, you know, activist, leaders, public faces of the democratic opposition in russia, we've known for a long time it is a dangerous location to be in opposition to mr. putin's regime but, you know, we accepted that the we think, you know, frankly that our country has no future under this regime. this regime is driving our country into a dead end and if we want to fight for our country's future we have to accept those risks and there is nothing better this regime would like us to do to give up and run away and i don't think we should give them that pleasure. >> mr. satter, you raise ad almost frightening point that

russia uses war for the domestic agenda than -- not necessarily the importance of the battle itself but the political significance or how it distracts from other issues. do you anticipate we might see more military action by russia to further its overall objectives, not so much the specific area where the military operations take place but to further their domestic support for their broader goals? >> that's the key determinant and that's the most important thing for the united states to keep in mind in anticipating possible russian aggression that what will motivate the russian authorities is not the desire to rebuild the soviet empire. they're actually, i think, indifferent to that. what, they go to war to strengthen the hold on power of

a small klepto democratic group. if they feel threaten and find best way to hold on to power is find a pretext for military aggression, they will look for it and that's why deterrents is so important but not only deterrents in military terms, but psychological deterrents something very much neglected by the united states because we with difficulty understand the cultural context in russia and the psychological context, what's really going on there. and all of the goodwill that we show -- i was in instructed by a statement of secretary kerry recently which he said about secretary -- minister lavrov,

that he lied to me to my face and i was taken aback by that remark because i was surprised that kerry expected anything different. this is the indispensable background to policy decisions and awareness of the people with whom you're having, with whom you're dealing and this i think is what's missing. this is what has to be reinforced. this can also be an important element in deterrents. >> thank you for that answer. we're going to stay in brief recess until the chairman returns, so i can vote on the amendment that's pending on floor of the senate. the committee will stay in brief recess.

>> gentlemen, looks like you're having a nice conversation. you want to share any of that with me? >> please forgive me. >> no, no. i would actually like to just leave it open. i know you had five minutes for comments and i very much appreciate your reference to the magnitsky agreement or act. i wonder if there is anything

else from a personal standpoint you would like to share with us while you're here? you heard the first two witnesses from a professional standpoint. are there things that, i know there were numbers of questions from committee members about things that we could be doing that we're not. are there observations that the two of you would have relative to additional pressure on russia relative to what is happening internally which is what most of your focus is here today? i know you did ask for help, i heard that in your testimony but are there other things? i know you said remain true to our values, but on top of that are there some additional activities we could be involved in. >> thank you, chairman corker and thank you for the question and thank you for the your leadership on the global magnitsky act recently marked up by the committee and senate resolution 78 dedicated to memory of boris nemtsov, which

is one of the points, tasked the u.s. government with the question of raising the investigation and the progress or lack thereof in the investigation. every time they meet with the russian government counterparts, that is very important and thank you for that. and on your question i think, first of all it is very important to distinguish and sometimes you know, even informed commentators make the mistake, they use shorthand by saying russia, what they actually mean is the putin regime and kremlin and behavior of the putin regime and obviously for a russian citizen that is a very important difference. things should not be confused with each other. the current regime is not product of a democratic election. not product of the free world of the russian people. i think it is important to bear this in mind. on the question what could be done i think frankly a more robust and more active implementation of the magnitsky act is the single-most important thing i would mention in this regard.

of course this act targets not just those implicated in the magnitsky case itself but section 4-b of this act widens its scope to other gross human rights abuses and there has been i think if i'm not mistaken there has been 39 people added to the u.s. magnitsky list since the law came into force but most of them have been low or midlevel human rights abusers, of course they should be on the list too but as i mentioned in the opening statement it is important not to have any glass ceilings in terms of rank and influence. >> to your perspective why do you think it is mostly targeted towards low level individuals? >> probably not for me to comment on the motivations behind the u.s. administration's actions. i'm not an american. i'm a foreigner and -- >> from your perspective. >> i do understand there are rigid criteria built into the law itself, so there has to be clear evidence but i think

frankly there is clear evidence about very high-profile and high-ranking human rights abusers within the current kremlin regime. there have been media reports here in the u.s. for instance, kaderov who i mentioned and the head of the general investigative committee have been put on classified part of the magnitsky act. in my personal view the most important part of this act is public shaming of human rights abusers. i do not see why these people should not be placed on the open list. in early 2014 when mr. nemtsov came here for the last time, he had several meetings here on the hill with membership and leaders of both parties and both houses and he suggested several names of high-profile human rights abusers in the putin regime that could be added to the list. that was the general and the former head of the election commission who was responsible for covering up mass fraud in 2011 and 2012 electoral cycle and earlier as well.

i think i believe there were 13 names mr. nemtsov suggested be put on the list and so far not a single one has been put on the list. a year ago former russian prime minister came here and we had several meetings on the hill and we suggested that the names of kremlin propaganda officials who call themselves journalists but who are not, they are state officials effectively involved in state incitement against those who are against putin regime, people that called boris nemtsov, called him traitor and enemy of russia, said he was financed by u.s. and he would have worked with nazi troops in 1941, i'm not making this up, these are direct comments, these people on incitement should be brought up on sanctions list and so far none of them have been brought up on the sanctions list. the most honorable wray to deal

with those human rights abusers is to plays them on the sanctions list. the groundbreaking thing of the list, it was not sanctions against russia or russian government, these are sanctions against individuals personally involved in human rights abuse and personally involved in core are up and i think this is the way it should be done. >> let me ask you in your observation when somebody is placed on the list, is it truly a significant punishment to them to be sanctioned in that manner? >> thank you. this is a very important question and we can talk about many similarities that exist between the soviet regime and what we have in our country today and we have political prisoners, we have media censorship, the lack of free and fair elections and so on and so forth but for all these similarities there is one very important difference that members of the soviet politburo did not hold their bank accounts in the west, did not send their kids to study in the west.

didn't buy real estate in the west. leaders of current regime and kremlin connected oligarchs do that. this double-standard and hypocrisy has to stop. we know from experience when high-ranking human rights abusers are placed on the sanction list it has very strong effect. i can give you one example. in 2007, when there was this whole controversy about relocation of a soviet war memorial in estonia, members of the pro-kremlin youth group engaged in a harassment campaign against the estonia ambassador to moscow. she is currently the foreign minister. they were following her everywhere trying to protest her press conferences and throwing things at her and shouting abuse. the government posted sanctions on the serving minister in mr. putin's government. he was in fact the leader of this group. he was placed on a visa ban list and because estonia is part of

the schengen agreement, he could not travel to any schengen country which is most of the european union. for nine years passed since then, he has desperately trying to get himself off the visa blacklist. for all the other nine years and tran aggressions and human rights abuses happening in our country there hasn't been a single case of harrassment against a foreign diplomat stationed in moscow. i think this is all you need to know about the effect and effectiveness of personal target the measures against those human rights abusers. >> mr. satter, do you want to add anything to it? hit the red button. >> i'm sorry. i think the future of russia depends -- i've been involved with russia for many years and thought a great deal about it. i think the first priority, the danger of participating in elections which the regime controls although i'm not

opposed to it, it gives legitimacy to the regime. actually under controlled circumstances gives the impression to the population what is taking place is a real democratic process. this is the same dilemma that people face, for example, i faced it one time when i was receiving invitations to appear on russian television, that i did not want to take part in a performance that in fact was not honest and did not, did not conform to normal ethical rules. i think, but there is some value in taking part in these elections as long as those who do so don't nuture illusions that this can change the regime. it can't. that's a process that's controlled by the regime. the regime willing changed in other ways. most important in my view requirement for russia's future, something, a russian equivalent of the south african commission on truth and reconciliation.

the 25 years of post-communist history are not well-understood and unfortunately the abuses began not with putin. putin is the hand-picked successor of boris yeltsin. they began with yeltsin and the crimes began with yeltsin. they began with the massacre at the television tower in 1993 and the shelling of the russian parliament. the carpet bombing of grozny in 1995, estimated 20,000 people killed, almost all of them civilians. now it appears that the 1996 elections in which yeltsin was quote, unquote, reelected were falsified and most important of all the circumstances under which putin became the new russian president.

he became the president in the aftermath of the bombing of four apartment buildings in russia that terrified the entire country, galvanized support for a new and even more bloody war in chechnya, and created the conditions for putin who had a 2% approval rating in the country, to become the national savior and the country's new president. when he took over as president he brought with him his kgb, fsb entourage and they proceeded to eliminate what was left of the freedoms that had been tolerated under yeltsin. the preconditions for putin's coming to power was the criminalization of russia under yeltsin because only a provocation like the apartment bombings could save such a kleptocratic regime as the one

that was put in place by yeltsin. under conditions of formal democracy. this group that's now in power with i will do anything to hold on to power but one of the most important instruments at their disposal is the ability to confuse the population about the population, about the people's true interests and their true history. so the first requirement for russia's resurrection in my view, is to clarify all of the historical episodes, the apartment bombings, the nordhosk theater siege, the beslan school massacre in 2004 in which children and parents in a gymnasium held hostage by chechen terrorists were attacked by russian troops with flame

throwers and grenade launchers and burned alive. of course the wars in georgia and ukraine. only on basis of truthful understanding of the country's history will it be possible to change the psychological state of the country making it realistic to create a genuinely law-based system and once that psychological and ethical basis exists it is important to have russia what it lost in 1918, when it lost to the bolsheviks in order to create a real constitution, not the constitution that was created in the wake of the destruction of the russian parliament in 1993 in order to suit the to suit the

power requirements of yell sin. under the circumstances and those parts of russian federation including the