that even his daughter could understand. jean was 2 years old at the time. [laughter] so twain thought the following invention would change the world. you don't recognize it? [laughter] this is the page typesetter. weighed almost four on the -- tons, and it was supposed to revolutionize printing. if it worked. twain had the immense misfortune of seeing it work once. at first, twain called james page the, quote, shakespeare of mechanical invention. by the end, after it kept breaking down, twain began fantasizing about capturing a certain part of page's anatomy in a steel trap and watching him slowly bleed to death. [laughter] so the page typesetter cleaned out twain's bank account. this next investment, starting his own publishing company, put him $80,000 or the equivalent of $2.4 million in modern currency,

in debt. they started off incredibly well. they published grant's memoirs, enormous success, and huckleberry finn. and twain expected to pay himself fat royalties. he wound up receiving no royalties. this is their final list of titles, and i don't know if you can see from there, but any publisher that's going to go out with stories from the rabbis -- [laughter] is probably going to be in a little trouble. [laughter] so headlines, and it was deeply humiliating, headlines in the newspaper said mark twain fails. i mean, it was brutal. failure of mark twain, failure of humanist. and he's -- humorist. and he's this literary superstar, deeply embarrassed, and he gets two main advisers. one of the wealthiest men in america, the right-hand man to john k. rockefeller, standard oil.

his nickname was hell hound, and this robber-baron wants to play hardball with the creditors. he wants to offer ten cents on the dollar. twain's other adviser is his wife, libby. she has absolutely no business experience. she writes him, i want the creditors to know that we have their interest at heart much, much more than our own. [laughter] livvie -- we have some bankruptcy experts in the crowd here. [laughter] livvie wanted to pay them in full as soon as possible. a word of advice, never bet against the wife. twain agreed obey everyone back in full -- agreed to pay everyone back in full. his books are not selling. his most recent title was the american claimant. not exactly a huge is seller. so quickest way for him to make money is to go out on a stand-up comedy tour. and he absolutely from the bottom of his heart did not want to go. it's a little known fact that a

mark twain dreaded public speaking in front of large audiences, but it wasn't so much stage fright as humiliation fright. he did not want to play the clown. he thought of himself as a literary author. and he said to a friend that once an audience sees you stand on your head, they'll expect you to remain in that position forever. so his performing style was deadpan, never smiled, talked slow. and he borrowed lines from his stories. pretty wonderful lines like the the weather was too rainy for school. so it's july 1895. he's 59 years old, and he's about to go out on the road with his wife and daughter. three creditors are suing him. stress has given him an infected boil on his thigh. he can't walk.

he wants to do a dozen warm-up speeches, but he only has time for two. he wrote to hell hound: nothing in this world can save it from being a poor, shabby, disgusting performance. pray for me. so twain sets out on this trip. he'd be gone a year. he would do 1322 performances -- 122 performances across the u.s., australia, new zealand, india and south africa. it's an exhausting trip even for a young man. he would spend 98 nights at sea and almost 50 days ill from coughs and other illnesses. he would travel by rail, rickshaw, mule-drawn carriage and by elephant, and his sightseeing boat would wander close to the floating corpses in the begangies. g ganges. first stop, cleave cleveland, ohio, a disaster. no one had told him a pair of newlyweds or were going to perform 40 minutes of violin and

flute music. yeah. [laughter] and then no one told him 500 news boys would be sitting behind him in bleachers, and there'd be no chaperone. [laughter] twain would later complain bitterly to hell hound about all the, quote, horseplay and sky larking which i have to admit i find a little ironic from the creator of huckleberry finn, but anyhow, twain judged this night a dead failure and described the perspiring audience as paying a dollar apiece to go to hell in this fashion. [laughter] so the cross-country trip started improving quickly, and he started feeding off audiences laughing, clapping and paying. and twain's lecture agent, a major james pond, luckily for us brought along a kodak box camera. and he wasn't a very good photographer, which is also good. these are intimate looks, not really fan i publicity shots. so here's the first one.

here is livvie telling her husband to put on an overcoat. it was 98 degrees that day. [laughter] they had a great marriage, but a lot of it revolved around livvie telling him to mind his manners. she called him youth forever. she always called him youth. and most strangers, by the way, called him mr. clemons. so twain tried really hard not to swear in front of her. and so the rest of us can drop the occasional f-word or the occasional damn, twain needed to be far more creative, and i truly think it helped his writing. he had to be more creative. so they begin their trek across the u.s. twain squeezed in a little sightseeing. i love this photograph. this is a norwegian shantytown outside great falls, montana, and it's an authentic tar paper shack. and see twain's holding two kittens? twain loved cats. he often wore a family cat

draped around his neck. and his daughter, clara, gave some sage advice. she said if you had to interrupt her father when e he was writing, always carry a kitten. [laughter] so later in the trip the family was staying in a rundown hotel. paper thin walls, surly servants, and twain did not sleep well. he wrote in his notebook, early in the morning a baby began, pleasantly. didn't mind baby. then a piano. played by either a cat or untrained artist. three wrong notes to four wrong ones. old tunes of 40 years ago. and considering it was the cat -- for it must have been the cat -- it was a really marvelous performance. [laughter] it convinced me that a cat is more intelligent than people believe. [laughter] so traveling long instances in the 1890s, no cars, obviously, so it meant trains. and since twain was a celebrity, he got occasionally to ride one

the engineer. this is the great northern railroad. but like the rest of us sometimes, he had to wait, and here he is in minnesota. they had arrived at the station at four a.m. only to discover a handwritten sign that said the train would be an hour and 20 minutes late. and the night was chilly, and twain lost it. hehe erupted. he lost it. he demanded that major pond honor his contract and get him traveling. so here we have the nation's leading lecture agent, 57 years old, wheeling twain around the station in the middle of night. [laughter] and if you look carefully, livvi rex is, like, shading her eyes. can't even bear to look at her husband. clara borrowed major pond's camera to take the picture, and that's her shadow there. and then what also i love about this picture, there are 17 pieces of luggage, if you count them up, and seven steamer trunks. they're going around the world

with seven steamer trunks, you know? travel in the 1890s. so mark twain would perform 22 nights in 31 days in north america, and he went from a sick bed in new york to a breakneck schedule and back to a -- oh, this is wrong -- sorry -- back to a sick bed in vancouver, canada. oh, that means there's going to be the wrong slides at the end. we'll just roll wit. [laughter] now i've got to think for a second. okay. here he is -- you've got to love that hair. he is suffering from a bad bronchial cough. you can see the pipe. he did several interviews in bed, but being a former newspaperman he knew that newspapermen lied. so he was nervous about it. and they'd ask in every town the same question: what will your travel book be about? and he'd go, why, my travels, i suppose. [laughter]

and he got so sick of the question, he started tossing off answers such as it'll be about hydrophobia, agriculture, wallpaper. [laughter] so the family departed august 23rd, 1895, from victoria with, canada, for australia. twain had survived a grueling schedule. he had made about $4,000 which in modern currency is about $120,000, but most of it went to hotel and travel and dining expenses, because he was convinced that his heiress wife on the right deserved to always stay in the most first class places, and he bought first class steamer tickets that literally cost half of the amount that he had earned lecturing. so twain's holding a long-stemmed pipe there, and he and major pond had gone shopping that morning. he had bought 500 cigars and four pounds of tobacco for a 25-day voyage. you can do the math. he could smoke about 20 cigars a

day. and major pond later wrote a memoir and put the number at 3,000 cigars. twain said pond is not an interesting liar. he is deaths institute of -- destitute of the sense of proportion. if only his parents had taken the least little pains with his training. [laughter] so mark twain loved cruise ships. he's a former mississippi river boat pilot, not surprising, and he threw himself into card, shuffleboard, star gazing, whale watching. he loved the fact that you could not get newspapers, no telegraph, no telephone in that era. it was a remote oasis. but back to those 500 cigars, nothing was ever easy for twain. on voyage the captain decided to strictly enforce the rules against smoking. yeah. and so -- [laughter] there we go. strictly against the rules of smoking. and he wanted to smoke in his stateroom.

he needed to smoke to write. he had once tried to give up smoking. he limited himself to onesie garre a day -- onesie garre a day. [laughter] he gave up the experiment. so now on this ship he'd have to go on deck in the rain, in the wind to smoke. and he might have made peace with those rules, might have, but there was a little pug dog, a little peek news dog on that ship, and twain wrote the dog was allowed to discharge its inexhaustible bowels anywhere on the ship, and twain vowed he would break every rule on the ship until the dog was reined in. twain had a tendency to demonize enemies; dogs, captains, business partners, other writers. he said any ship's library containing no jane austen was good even if it contained no

books at all. [laughter] so as the ship approached australia, twain became worried about what his reception would be there. i mean, would the british empire embrace an american, you know, stand-up performance? so here is sydney, australia, 1895, and twain arrived, and he made a very bold choice. he decided he would deliver a poem about australia. a purposely-dreadful poem, an absolutely excruciating poem, and he would do it straight face. he would pick a national animal for the australians. he decided against the kangaroo or the cowall la. he chose -- koala. he chose the platte pus. he decided to use its latin name. for those of you who don't know, the platypus is a duck-billed, claw-footed, beaver-tailed, egg-laying animal, so twain had

trouble finding rhymes for all the body parts. so he rearranged the beast. said he needed the animal to cooperate for them to have a success. and the patter was definitely better than the poem. in fact, anything was better than that poem. so it was a huge hit down under, and twain was just embraced in australia. he scored a massive payday, sold out all his shows in major cities, added more shows, trund rouse ovations. wealthy citizens invited him to tea, to dinners. he went to the racetrack. and australia gave him the first glimmer of hope that he could pay these debts. next stop, new zealand. after twain met his first maori native, it took him 15 minutes to decide he liked seeing tattooed faces and bodies. he found the designs, quote: flowing, graceful, beautiful. and then after another 15 minutes he decided the

undecorated european face was a bit unpleasant. [laughter] so new zealand didn't have too many large cities, so twain found time for sightseeing, and he likes to see strange animallings. so he went to the natural history museum in christchurch, and he saw the giant moa. i love this, you know? i mean, if you can see, that's, that is a skeleton. this is the actual skeleton that twain saw. i mean, he saw it in a museum, but this is the skeleton. and the giant moa was an extinct giraffe-like bird. only extinct about 500 years. so twain wondered why it had died out. and he learned there was a native maori expression, as stupid as a giant moa. [laughter] so twain was fascinated, and he wrote about what he imagined it would feel like to be kicked by this enormous bird. and his illustrator got a little carried away. yeah. dan beard. and so you see the flying head,

the geyser of blood. and twain loved dan beard's illustrations because they were subversive, and dan beard liked to slip in a little nudity sometimes. so this is, actually, a kind of quite creepy scene to slip in nudity. an australian rancher was accused of feeding a poisoned christmas pudding to the local aborigines. and if you look carefully, you see wishing you a merry christmas coming out of his pipe smoke. so this is a dark image for nudity. twain had a buddy for much of the trip, and this is 30-year-old carlyle smythe who's the son of twain's lecture agent. and he shepherded, smythe shepherded the clemons family for nine months and played a lot of cards and billiards with twain. and whenever smythe was winning, twain changed the rules. [laughter] so now twain was going to turn 60 on november 30th.

and he was a bit on is accessed with the loss of youth. and he gave a speech, and he said he thought god should have considered cutting off the entire human race at the age of 30. because everyone treasures their youth and looks back on it longingly. he said, quote: old age has its own value, but that is to other people, not to those who have it. [laughter] yeah. next stop, india. now, twain had worked hard for six months, but he had earned only one-fifth of what he needed, and he also got sick again with another chest cold. but against all odds he absolutely fell in love with india, and he stayed for two and a half months. he loved the colors, clothes, dancing girls, turbans, chaos. years later he would call india, quote: the only foreign land i ever day dream about or deeply long to see again. so he arrives at his hotel in bombay, and this is his view out

the window. he's got a snake charmer, a juggler. he loved the unpredictability of india. i have to admit, i found this slide and couldn't resist including it. i can't confirm that actually saw this man -- twain saw this man cross on this rope bridge, but it's the unpredictability of india. and he was amazed by how crowded the sidewalks were. [laughter] holy braman bulls. twain admired their ability to go anywhere. since he was deeply in debt, he was quite jealous of the holy men who could just lie around and receive donations all day. so twain visited the holy city of -- [inaudible] and he witnessed women bathing in the holy ganges. and twain was amazed that the hindu women were so adept at spinning out of a wet sari and into a dry one without revealing any bronze, as he put it. [laughter] and he also sounded a tad

annoyed about that. let's see what's next. and he did, he did see the corpses and the funeral -- [inaudible] as well. i want to take you on a little sightseeing moment with mark twain. so he wants to -- he goes to this mosque here, a pair of 142-foot tall slender minarets. he climbs the endless spiral staircase, gets to the top, and this is a typical sightseeing episode w. the holy state unfurled below, he happened to notice a gray monkey making long leaps, and twain wrote: he got me so so nervous that i couldn't look at the view. the monodecame within an ace of losing his life a dozen times, and i was so so troubled about him that i would have shot him if i had anything to do with it. [laughter] so in india twain found himself again and again having to confront his opinions of another person's religion. and he decided that one couldn't be expected to believe another man's beliefs, but he should

respect them. and he also judged it wrong for missionaries to try and impose their beliefs on someone else. he wrote in his notebook that he had heard that christian missionaries had achieved little success converting hindus but that they had scored some breakthroughs with monkeys. [laughter] he wrote, quote: in two years at a cost of $60,000, four monkeys converted and 11 hopefully interested. [laughter] so while in india, mark twain received one of the most amazing perks -- well, he also rode an elephant. while in india -- and he rode another elephant. [laughter] and another elephant. this is a different version of this slide show. [laughter] it's all good. he received one of the most amazing perks that i think any celebrity has ever been granted. we're not talking courtside seats or free bottles of champagne. british railway officials set

aside 35 miles of track in him lay yas for mark -- himalayas for mark twain to use as a private roller coaster. so here he is at darjeeling, p 7,000 foot elevation. these are not clouds, these are snow-capped peaks. i mean, twain is up in him lay yas. himalayas. and this is such a steep area that the railway needed to use four reverse zigzags where literally the car reverses direction in order to deal with the steepness. and also four horizontal loops like this one. so no seat belts were mentioned. a six-seater open car. gravity would propel them downward and only a hand brake could stop them. as twain pointed out to his wife and daughter, an unseen pebble on the daughter might derail them at a curve. on february 17th, 1896, they zoomed downward, starting in fur blankets and finishing in shirt sleeves. he wrote: for rousing, tingling,

rapturous pleasure, there is no holiday trip that approaches the bird flight down the himalayas in a handcar. and he later judged that february day in india the single most enjoyable day of his entire trip. so twain visited south africa, and then he went on to london to write his travel book in seclusion. and the new york herald almost ten months later, on june 1, 1897, ran a piece headlined: mark twain ill in london. sad news about the great humorist's mental and physical collapse. he had had a checkered career. so a rival paper, the new york journal, sent a telegram to a young reporter, and it stated: if twain dying in poverty in london, send 500 words. if twain has died in poverty, send a thousand. so the reporter reached twain's house on june 1, 1897. twain refused to be interviewed, but he scribbled a reply that it was his cousin, james ross

clemons, who was ill. and then he wrote, quote: the report of my illness grew out of his illness. the report of my death was an exaggeration. [laughter] so over time and retelling, that has morphed through the reports of my death are greatly exaggerated, one of the most famous quotes ever. and that seems like a fitting spot to wind this to a close. twain lived in europe for two more years and made enough more money to pay off his debts. he made the money from his travel book. he came home in 1900 to a hero's welcome; banquets, tributes, awards. his career and reputation revived because he had done the amazing international trip and because he had paid off his debts. a lot of businessmen, i would say, hid behind bankruptcy laws or used the courts. he paid off his debts. and his complete edition started selling, his publisher gave him a huge contract, and he wrote to his daughter: i can stand considerable petting, jean. well, he got the petting then,

lots of it x it's still happening. thank you very much. [applause] any questions from anybody? >> okay, have we got some questions for the mic? >> anybody want to be on tv? [laughter] >> you go to the -- can you go to the mic? >> you said he had a great marriage, a nice marriage. i can't imagine, i mean, if she was -- [laughter] if she was an heiress and he lost her money and she was trying to make him behave all the time, that's a unique -- >> it's an unusual -- you have to realize here this man who is unbelievably funny. that saves you from a lot of trouble. [laughter] i mean, he was the most entertaining man of the era. so, and also he pulled it out of the fire. he -- she ordered him, in effect, to do this stand-up comedy tour, to pay the debts quickly. he followed her orders, he paid

off the debts. so there was a great joy in that. >> i have one other burning question. i know that grant's biography, he made -- >> yes. nor mouse success. >> how could he -- >> he wrote the largest check in the history of u.s. publishing. two checks, one for 200,000 back when that was, you know, god knows or 30 million or whatever, and then another for 150,000. and yet twain's company was to mismanaged, he did not -- he had a contract written in that he had final say so on all books but was not allowed to be asked to do anything. i mean, that's a recipe for running a start-up? no. so, thanks. anyone else? okay. well, thank you very much. appreciate it. [applause] thanks for coming. >> books are for sale in the

front of the store, and richard zacks will sit up here and sign copies of his book. thanks for coming. [inaudible conversations] >> here's a look at some authors recently featured on booktv's "after words," our weekly author interview program. senate barbara boxer of california looked back at her life and career in politics. senate majority leader mitch mcconnell discussed his political philosophy and his time in the senate. and vice president of policy and research tamara drought talked about america's new working class and its potential

political power n. the coming weeks on "after words," natalia holt will profile the women instrumental to the development of america's space program in the 1940s and '50s. historian pamela haig will look at risk -- at the history of gun ownership. also, eric fehr will cuts his time working -- discuss his time working in iraq as a contractor. and this weekend we look at the history and the rise of isis. >> so the spectacular surge of isis was a direct result of the creeping sectarianism, the deepening sectarianism, the civil wars in the arab east, the security vacuum that exists in iraq and syria and other states and the perception that somehow the arab spring, the peaceful collective action could naturally change the existing order; that is, the leader of isis who basically replaceddal

zarqawi is basically motto is that change would come not by, through the electoral box, but through the barrel of a gun. >> "after words" airs on booktv every saturday at 10 p.m. and sunday at 9 p.m. eastern. you can watch all previous "after words" programs on our web site, booktv.org. >> you're watching booktv on c-span2, television for serious readers. here's a look at what's coming up tonight in prime time. we'll start the evening at seven eastern with a look at the history of the genetic code with pulitzer prize-winning author siddhartha mukherjee. and then at 8 p.m. eastern, kareem abdul-jabbar weighs in on social and political issues. at 9:30 p.m -- 8:30 p.m. eastern it's a round table discussion of donald trump's art of the deal.

and we'll finish up at 11 with virginia congressman gerald connolly. he sits down with booktv to discuss the books that have influenced his life and career. and that all happens tonight on c-span2's booktv. >> booktv tapes hundreds of author programs throughout the country all year long. here's a look at some of the events we'll be covering this week. on monday syndicated radio host dana lash is at our studios in new york city for a taping of our weekly author interview program, "after words." in her new book, she argues that the united states is dividing itself into two countries, coastal america and flyover america. she will be in conversation with fox news contributor guy benson. tuesday at baltimore's e knock pratt library, the nation magazine's michael smith will discuss his life and political education as a young black man in america.

then on wednesday at brookline book smith in brookline, massachusetts, former "newsweek" white house correspondent clara bingham will recall the social and political upheaval that took place in the united states from 1969 to 1970. and on thursday at the offices of first things journal in new york city, mary ebber stat will argue that people of faith are experiencing widespread discrimination because of their beliefs. that's a look at some of the author programs booktv is covering this week. many of these events are open to the public. look for them to air in the near future on booktv on c-span2. [inaudible conversations] >> ready?

test one two, test one two, test one two. [inaudible conversations] >> so good afternoon, everybody. one more time a little bit louder. good afternoon. >> good afternoon. >> because i'm quite sure you've enjoyed the three days we've had here at the national black writers' conference, it has been, you know, like it is every year. this is probably my third straight year of coming, and each year they try to offer a great selection of, you know, poetry and talent discussions, films and all kind of energetic activity. thank you so much for coming to join us. the reception last night, the presentation, we had the honorary chair last night was real dove can, i don't know how many of you made it, but the honorees were michael eric dyson and woody kings jr. and i heard their messages were very inspiring and just really got people fired up.

i hope you got a chance to see it. today is the last day of the conference, so i want to make sure we have a good time today. you know, as we discuss the many genres associated with black literature, the topics that we have coming from our authors today. my name is patrick oliver, i am found of a readers and writers series based in chicago, illinois. we support a lot of lyric projects primarily to enencourage young people to become the next generation of individuals who may be at this conference once day. so check us out at speakloudty.com. it's also my, you know, pleasure to be, you know, the emcee, you know, here to share with you all these wonderful things that we have, again, happening here at this conference that was founded by -- [inaudible] in 1986 and the center for black literature has continued in that tradition of making sure this conference is one of the most talked about conferences in the country as well as, you know, the scholars and the thinkers that we bring to this conference

even year and to -- each year and to offer that space where we can talk about our culture, social issues that pertain to the black experience. we're glad you're here. >> so, you know, we think it's important that we continue to encourage, you know, you to support the writers that i hear continue sharing the message with your friends, family or associates about the great time you've had here at this conference. keep in mind, we want you to keep pushing in this, you know, this digital age that you're in right now.

keep pushing the written word, keep pushing turning the page. let's keep that in mind of, you know, young people as well as adults. let's keep that moving. one of the highlights of our program today is going to be a conversation that michael eric dyson is going to have with khalil muhammad, the schomburg center for research. we're going to miss him. he's leaving that post. but we have a lot going on today. i want to make sure, also, let's tweet it out to your friends and associates about what we have on facebook, let's get it out on social media, because we have an exciting day going today. i want you to share with folks what's going op. so let's, you know, get started with our first panel for the day, and i'm excited about it. it's about creative writing programs and writers of color, current and future trends. it's going to be moderated by donna hill who's going to introduce our panelists. >> okay, thank you. good afternoon, everyone. welcome to the 13th national black writers conference.

i want to thank everybody for joining us here today. i know that this particular panel will be enlightening. we may throw some shade. but it will be enlightening nonetheless. [laughter] i hope you've had an opportunity to attend some of the other workshops that have been happening over the course of the weekend and that are going on for the rest of the day today. what i want to do is introduce our very distinguished panel, and they're going to be sharing their or insights, their experiences and their vision as well as answering as many of your questions as possible at the end of our session. so, first, we have bernice mcfadden. she is author of nine critically-acclaimed novels including sugar, loving donovan, nowhere is the place, the warmest december -- one of my favorites -- gathering of water, which was a new york times editors' choice -- and one of

100 notable books of 2012 as well as glorious. she is a recipient of lee ea wards from bcla. ms. mechanic fadden's latest book -- mcfadden's latest book is the book of harlan. then we have mariah talley. she had to write that out phonetically for me to be able to tell you what her name was. we are going to call her mariah -- [laughter] to make it easy on all of us, me especially. she's the author of dear continuum, letters to a poet crafting liberation, which was listed as one of the split this rock 215 books we love and karma's footsteps. she is the poetry editor of the literary magazine african voices.

ms. tallie's work is the subject of the short film, i leave my colors everywhere. her essays and poetry have been published in the -- [inaudible] black renaissance, noir and the -- [inaudible] she earned her msa from mills college in 2002. and last but certainly not least we have dr. mien that alexander -- mina alexander described as undoubtedly one of the finest poets in contemporary times. she's the author of atmospheric embroidery. she was born in india, raised there and in the sudan, and at the age of 18, went to england to study. her volumes of poetry include illiterate heart, winner of the penn open book award, raw silk and birthplace with buried stones. she's the editor of love poems and author of the critically acclaimed memoir "fault lines." ..

managerialization and the publishing industry in general in particular there was an article written by juno díaz by the new yorker in which he writes about experiences as msa student at cornell university. so write with people of color, his message was that the program was too white. then and ultimately 20 years later not much has changed. so that is the foundation upon which our discussions will stem from today and so i want to kind of pop the first question to mariah, she earned her msa, so maria, what was your expectation going in and what were your conclusions coming out? >> thank you.

it's interesting, wow. all right. when i went to mills, one of the things before i went into an mfs program i was already a part of a community of writers. i think that's probably one of the big differences between me and a lot of folks who go to mfs programs, initially, so i was doing my poetry, i was here in brooklyn at the brooklyn moon, i had people and i had mentors, i had folks who were already looking out for me, i was with african voices and there was a community for me, so when i went to mills, i largely went there because i felt like i needed to learn about craft and because i wanted to go to the west coast. all right. so -- i'm just really being

honest with you. i knew i was interested in teaching, those were my reasons for going. my poetry is really blatantly political and so i didn't get to their poetry program. it was experimental-type of program that they champion. i did get into the fiction program, however, and so there were no black faculty. no, there weren't any teaching at that time. i believe víctor laval came later as a guest and not full-time. my entire time i'm in workshop. i did not have a black professor in workshop.

in other courses, yes, literature classes and things like that. someone that might have been in a similar vein. that was my experience, i was the only people -- i think i was actually the only policewoman woman, black person in my workshops in two out of the three of the workshops, and that showed up in some interesting ways which we can talk about later. >> okay. all right. cool. so you're currently taking your msa in st. joseph but you're already established and what was your goal and what was your experience been like?

>> good afternoon, i was encouraged by some mentors who already teach in academia to get my msa. i realized that if i wanted to teach on the the collegiate, the way i looked i did. so it was really for the credential. what was the secondary -- >> your experience. >> there are about four people of color and one -- one experience really jumps to mind when all of the racial, black man getting shot in the street, obviously that found itself way into the classroom and we discussed it and i found out that a lot of the white students did not want to discuss it. some of the younger students

just came out and said simply i don't understand it so i don't want to have this conversation because i don't understand it. most recently i wrote an essay about the prison issue about black men being sent to prison and more black men in prison than there were slaves in 1850. i focused on three companies, and one of the lines says that that the head of each of these companies is white males just like it was during plantation system. the young lady, white young lady who was assign today edit my piece who was on the msa program she asked if i would remove that line. so my response was i'm not going to remove it but i would like to know why you feel it needs to be moved and i'm still waiting on that response.

>> so that's an experience. mina, i was looking at an article in poets and writers. it was the ranking that was done in 2012 would state that nearly all professors of msa fiction programs were white. there were just 14 ten year or ten year track writers of african decent of 262 tenure or tenure track faculty in msa programs in the united states. that's kind of sad. so as a distinguished, not just a professor but a distinguished professor at the graduate of hunter, so you deal and creative writing classes, why does the lack of diversity matter, why should it matter and how do you see this issue that díaz raises where it's head in your classrooms and how do you deal with that.

>> first of all, i do not have msa. >> right. >> i studied in india and sudan and then i was in england and none of the writers i know of my generation have -- very few have . what it can do a table and a few people around the table who read your stuff and really respond to it well. the other thing is at hunter i use today teach, i was teaching in the msa program for some time in poetry and memoir, i've al written a memoir but now i do no longer teach, i've not been invite today teach and i can tell you that the hunter faculty as far as i can tell is all

white. there are very few students of color and i don't think my school which has a terrific msa program in some ways it's not an isolated example. and this is a very strange thing because you if you look at the what arena of american writing, so what is it about the msa program? i think it's a good topic to think about. at the graduate center, i mostly teach syrian students, we don't actually write programs. a lot have msa and do ph.d's. i think that's an issue, one of the things that's happened is that there is an idea of a

professionalization of the fear, right? we should think about what does this mean? what does it mean to professionalize? we had writing for many centuries and many, many cultures and many languages. what does this piece of paper do for you, i mean, it can, i know people, people of color have gone to amazing msa programs and loved it. i also know people have dropped out precisely because of a sense of isolation. so these are issues i think that we should try and think about. and they are difficult issues. >> definitely, definitely. >> i don't have immediate answers to it, you know, but i think it's important to ask the questions. >> i think -- and i will open it to you of any who want to answer the question, when we look at

the writing what arena and very often writers of color are isolated from that arena. and, in fact, we look at degrees assort of validation of your capabilities, if writers of color who are already left out of the mix, kept away from the table f they are not pursuing these degrees, what are their actions then? >> okay. so so much has been said. a few things the idea of professionalizing writing, and i'm coming, i'm definitely coming but the idea of professionalizing writing is such an interesting thing when i

hear profession alize i hear capitalize, i was thinking about this today, this is another hoop to jump through in a sense, right? it's another hoop to jump through. you already had all these published books. how many people -- some of your professors probably aren't on the level as you. >> that's right. >> right. [laughter] >> so it's like what in the world, msa, what does she need that for? it's absolutely outrageous, they can't make dollars off of us. >> something else that's a little scary to me which is that perhaps there's an idea of a particular kind of language. >> yeah. >> a particular model of writing that i find very difficult. >> that's why i have an msa but i was thinking like nobody knows that college. i got an msa because i wanted to learn something, right, but if you don't get an msa from the

right place with that right type of language and that right faculty, right, then you're wasting your time. you really are. you will not capitalize off of that -- that degree and so that's something else i've been thinking a lot about, well, you've got to be the right people, you have to have the right mentor, you have to go to the right msa program. if you don't do that you continue to be marginalized. i think the alternatives is always community. we were here talking about john the other day and amaze to go hear that he had this workshop every week for years, people from 10:00 o'clock to 1:00 o'clock and it was free and every single person who went through that with him is now a published, respected, loved community member who continues to nurture and so community is the real thing, like that's as we as writers need, is

community. >> and just sort of speaking to the whole idea of finding the right program, if in fact, you decide that you wanting to after this mfsa so me very much like renee i have been published for 20 years before i decided that i wanted to get an msa. i didn't get an mfa because i wanted to be validated as a writer, i knew that i wanted to teach and in order to teach i knew i wanted a master's degree. i was lucky enough to be able to go to a program, because i went to school residency and -- and i -- at the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of díaz's experience i had an incredible

experience, i miss it had class mates, i missed the experience of being there. it's like anything. it goes back to doing your research. who are the professors. all of those different things. the same thing if you were applying for a job, you have to figure out, are you a right fit for this and -- and what is it that's going to come out of it. in an interview for the paris review, tony said, i would like to write novels that are unmistakably mine but nevertheless sit first into african-american tradition. it's very important for me that my work be african-american. if it assimilates to a larger pool, so much the better. but i shouldn't have to be asked to do that. they should be russian, french,

irish and catholic, they write where they come. she made that statement in response to a question about race. so many of our students here and at other college that is are predominantly groups of color are already in that space where they're nortured and encouraged to have their authentic voice. they celebrate their otherness in the safe spaces and for the students who intend career in writing, a field that's inherently white, how they can maintain their voice and navigate through, not around, but through the white as tony morrisson has said. >> you know, i was thinking if we think back a little bit into the -- fairly recent past, how did writers teach themselves to write? think of james baldwin.

my next door neighbor hunter who was mentor to me. these are people who read what they loved and learned from it and wrote in response to things that pushed up against them, right? i mean, when you think of the individual voice, this is something so personal and so deep that you have to find the material that's gives you gene oolg as a writer. just because i'm an indian doesn't mean i can't learn from a nigherrian or a writer from the american south who is white. but that's it. i think the question of race in the united states is a very big question. when i think back to india, there was a whole period when

the british used to say that the indians could not write, were not capable of writing in english. i mean, the whole question of colonialism in multiple forms and how that afflicts the individual writer, this is something that's not gone away from us. but i think that the writing to survive and right will conduct the kind of qaurrel. out of the qaurrel we write something. we can actually construct an extraordinary work of art. i think these are difficulties, they have to be voiced and shared, but it doesn't mean that one can't write and write very well. i know this doesn't directly address the issue of msa programs which a topic but i

think it's not irrelevant. you can go to the msa program which may be largely white but you may find people that nur chew you. i think the demographics by a certain year or maybe already there when so-called minorities are actually the majority, right? i mean, this is an amazing misnomer if you think about what the population is of the united states, i think the wonderful lateral connections we can make between multiple ethnicities and mother tongs and languages and histories all very, very important. >> do you want to add anything to that? >> i love the way that you put that about about the genealogy. i think if you stay in touch

with whatever the impetus is that moves you to the page in the first place, it'll be difficult to lose your voice. that's what i found anyway that i keep in touch with the james baldwins and sonia sánchezs and all of people, all of those voice who is i think have influenced my walk and my path, and i surround myself with amazing writers and i think that's really important too. people who i admire not only their writing but also their walk on the planet, right. all the different things that they do. i think the people around me do something similar. i think we had the msa programs,

the writers were celebrated for being self-taught. i'm self-taught. i don't think you can teach creative writing, i think you can provoke it. if you find the right professor to bring it out, that's a wonderful thing. i had tweeted that i'm more interested in the english language than what i could create from the english language and why should that not be celebrated because language is fluid and it changes and now we have this new language that includes emojis. [laughter] >> we have to embrace that, and when you have an institution saying that there's only one type of story or we will only accept one type of story coming out of your particular community, there's an issue. >> i want to kind of go back a little bit to the value or the

worth of pursuing an mfa degree. like in many circles considered a little frivolous because people just kind of sit around and talk and look at work and talk some more and look at work and talk some more. and iaina, she wrote an article which she said, if students of color specially network created at an mfs program can open doors to the hollowed and unstrikingly undiverse of publishing houses. do you find that or believe to be true? >> no, you see it. it's blatant. how many people of color do we have in the publishing house? how many people of color do we have as editors in the pr department? so you go to school and receive

the mfa and so your track is i want to go in publishing, they're only going to allow a certain -- a very small percentages and if you want to write, you can write, but will you receive the recognition from the predominantly white unless drrowr writing a certain type of book. >> okay. and then to kind of piggy back on that a little bit, even though it's been understood that these msa programs and creative writing programs in general are considered sort of like the doorway to the big houses. so if you want to be sort of this literary writer, you have

these skills that you've acquired, but if the voices of color continue cross that threshold, so where does that leave us? where does it leave the publishing industry going forward or should we event try? >> you know, i wanted to just pick up something bernice said about one kind of story coming out of the community that i think is part of the struggle because i think certain kinds of narratives maybe deemed acceptable for wider audiences, there are other kinds of narratives for audible. because there is a kind of narrative that is available to the broad american publishing world and if you don't fit into it, what happens. i think it's a real question. one of the things important to

recognize is that in many ways small publishing houses are like the bloodstream, i think, of the literary world. even some of the writers who are very well known, you know, published in major presses, probably may well have published in smaller houses, particularly in poetry, right? there's no money in it. you make it a job, but really i couldn't take you out for dinner if i wanted to. [laughter] >> i mean, we could get french fry or something, right? maybe not even -- [laughter] >> and i think that -- the other thing that i wanted to say of an msa program is that, you know, this is an idea and i think it ought to provide a nurturing atmosphere for young writers. it's like a hot house where you have the right kind of soil and the plants should be able to

grow but it's only a certain kind of plant to grows then it becomes a little i havey, certainly as msa programs introduce their young writers to publishers, you know, i've also taught as a visitor in the colombia university writing program, msa program, i taught at hunter, and you know, and i think it's wonderful to see when it's happened, young writer who is are excited leading up with editors and agents and then there's this other large issue, what if my voice and my kind of way of looking at the world and what i bring to the table is not recognized and, in fact, not only is it not recognized but not really permitted in some way to tell that story whether it's in poetry, fiction or nonfiction. then, of course, that should be a kind of challenge in some ways, i think. if you look at something like

cornelius, you know, american poets, i think it's extraordinary, i think there are place that is nurture young voices for people of color and you can be in an msa program, which maybe doesn't help you so much in that way but you can always find your mentors, right? which is probably what everybody does in some face. you said i had my community and then i -- >> i just wanted to say something. i think what happens -- what happens to us, what happened to us. so i was just taking some notes. it's the same thing happening over and over and over and over again. i have moments consider the fact that awp is happening right now. all right, let's just put that on the table. and i think that's important, right?

for a lot of us we were nurtured here at this conference, okay. this is where we got the folks who pushed us along and who give us the nurturing and the love that we need, right here in brooklyn, okay, and i think this is critical, why are we here and not there? because this is our place, right, this is our place. one of the things i was thinking about is being influenced by something like the black art's movement. you know, you have to create your own. you have to do your own thing and when you do your own thing, what you don't want to do is become a gatekeeper also. so in doing your own thing and creating your own spaces, you have your own publications or you have your own press, you know, like jessica has more black press or like, you know, the folks that i've been published are independent, one is a man in bronx, you know what i'm saying and the other one in england but they are both men of color and they've decided that

this is what they need to do. they need to create the publishing outlets for, you know, for us, basically and so you have to be -- it has to be resilient, you have to be really, really resilient in this and you've got to be willing to either create your own thing or support those folks that have created their own thing, whatever you chose to do that. whatever it is, i'm really -- yeah, i'm really serious about that, about us not being afraid to have alternate to whatever it is at alternative to whatever out there is mainstreamed. why not? why shouldn't we? and then the question becomes how we build that. you said or so do you want to gain industry, once you created that press should you go to awp, should we make sure that this is as viable and important to the young voices as that space is? what do we do from there? >> and then there's the question

-- just picking on what you said, what does it mean or what does it take to attar the mainstream, right, which is a big question relate today what you're saying. >> mariah, one of the things when we were e-mailing back and forth you had, i believe, you had a question. in these types of programs how do we deal with the lack of programs that focus on work that deals with social justice specially understanding that social justice was the impetus for many students wanting to write in the very first place? so how would you expand on that a little? >> i mean, that's difficult, i think when i was talking to dr. green before the program, one of the things that had to happen, in order for people to care about social justice,ic they have to care about you, they have to see you as a human being. they have to see me as a human being and so when he said that

the young woman said, well, she doesn't want that, they don't want to talk about that, right, they don't understand it and therefore they don't want to talk about it. for me when i don't understand something, i need to talk about it. this is critical about one of the things i didn't say to dr. green but will say to you now something that happened in my msa program which is very difficult to me, i had a great professor cornelius and we read our first book, interpreter. thank you. so when we were reading going to meet the man, the title story is some difficult, difficult stuff. and in it we meet a character, main character who sexually assaults either while male police officer and he sexually assaults black women and physically abuses black men and at some point in the story we see that he was brought up going

to lynching, the professors ask, in this story do you have compassion for the police officer and everybody in the class said, yes, except me. i just sat there. the next week one of my classmates brought in a story, a man who is frustrated, his -- you know, he's got this job, he's working all of the time and the dog does something that upsets him and so he takes the dog and throws it against the wall and so the professor asked the class because of the -- what you know about this man, do you have compassion for him when he throw it is dog against the wall and everybody in the class said no except me. [laughter] >> and that's when you realize that you can't deal with issues of social justice in a classroom.

if people are not seeing you as a human being. if they're not seeing your concern, right, and your being, right, you're not the -- the dog is more important than you. that was a hard, hard thing for me. it was very difficult. >> can i read a quote and he talks about in the 1965 book, still relevant so he says, and this is about publishing, white publishing. he says keep criticizing society black writers, right. keep criticizing society and you'll continue to incur the wrath of our white reviewers who are not bad fellow at all and would like to bring you into the fold if you'll just play down your negroness. and they're still asking us to do that. >> that's right. >> one of the things i was thinking as you were both

talking -- everyone was talking was my mind sort of went back to that extraordinary section at the end of -- the last section is called colonial words of mental disorders and some of you may remember this and was trained as a psychiatrist and then was sent by the french to algeria where he was attending to both algerian patriots and the colonial army and the white comes to him, the frenchman comes to him and said, you know, i spent my time beating up the algerians and engaging in torture in the closed rooms and when i got home i kept beating my wife and can you treat me so i can stop beating my wife and get back to work. this was quite an extraordinary moment. what am i supposed to do?

am i supposed to treat him so that he goes back and engages in torture? i don't know why, it just came to our head and it questions our humanity and what does it mean to engage in non violent which is a very active thing and very difficult? what -- what are we -- you know, what kinds of love do we task ourselves as writers? you know, one of the great traditions of nonviolence and you have gandhi and academies -- acts of nonviolence and the rights civil blacks movement influenced the untouchable communities in india. and, of course, the overthrow of apartheid in south africa. so i think that the extraordinary thing about a very

good book is that it can open a window out of these turning -- returning constantly returning circles of violence and of despair. and i think that something else is possible which is also why we write and i think, you know, this should bring us back to why are we writers. there's something in the world that we are struggling with and we are perhaps altering if only for a brief second, right? so i think that -- i think to come back to msa programs, probably all agree that they should nourish and nurture very diverse communities and that is perhaps probably, actually that is not happening at this moment. >> that's right. >> yeah, absolutely. i've been given the high sign. [laughter] >> sandman is like here here right now. before we open the floor to questions, i hope you have

questions for our panel, i just want to sort of close it out by with a quote from james baldwin for all of the potential writers out there. if you're going to be a writer there's nothing i can do to stop you, if you're not going to be a writer, nothing i say will help you. [laughter] >> so thank you all very, very much. and so if you have questions, they're here to answer your questions. >> good afternoon, my name is cheryl, i'm just wondering, you know, out of conflict there's often opportunity and i'm wonder if there are any msa programs that the panelists know of that as you know article and other articles like it are saying that we have a problem and are

looking at students of color in a different way because i'm ready to enroll tomorrow at the msa program. >> well, i know there's a wonderful at queen's college which is really made a very deliberate effort to include and nurture writers of color and also faculty of color on board. >> i don't know if you are intending to go to classes all of the time but if you're looking at low residency program, i would highly, highly recommend gardner. i loved it. i had a really great experience there. the -- the instructors are nurturing, what we are looking for. i had the same kind of -- when i got there, the first thing that that we all do when we go is like, okay, how many of us are there. i think i counted like six, but

it didn't matter because the -- the instructors were so wonderful and the friendships that i made and that networking, you know, that we talked about that's so important to your growth as a writer. so that was the suggestion. i don't know. >> thank you, thank you for coming in, for hearing your stories, this is a really important topic and for me it's really important for a number of perspectives. i'm chair of the english department and we have a creative writing and professional writing concentration and our students want to know what can i do when i graduate because it looks as if i'm not teaching, that's the only way that i can really make money, if i want to be a writer, i have to figure out what else i can do. so i want to go back to the writing programs, the msa programs that you talked about

going to them for various reasons, but not necessarily getting the support that you can have. what role does the writing workshop have with an msa program, would you -- in other words, what are the strategies or what solutions can we have given that many people are enrolled in writing workshops where they feel marginalized and they feel isolated and just to close out, and i will sit down and listen, i attended academic writer but everyone has said creative writing, i remember attending workshop and really feeling very marginalized and feeling as if i had to be the voice of all of the black people and i didn't even get my work commented on because i was too busy addressing the perceptions that were out there of what my

writing should look like and what was considered valuable. so maybe one strategy could be that if you're going to enroll in an mfa program make sure you have the kind of support around you, just want to hear your ideas on that, thank you. >> i would definite i will say you have to make sure you have some other support around you. i don't imagine that you could make it through without. i mean, not an environment like that, right? you have to stay in touch. >> you know, one of these things brenda, it's very interesting and curious, if you're a writer of color, there's an expectation that your voice is going to stand for the whole of the community. you're an individual with your voice. i remember and it gets to such an extent i was reading at the university of michigan in an

asian-american class as i was working on my memoir and an indian woman said, please don't publish your memoir whatever you do, i said why? because they'll think we are all like you. i said this is totally ridiculous, why should everybody be like me. one would never say that of a white writer. [laughter] >> that's what colonialism does. the whole question that you're talking about that you have to highlight certain kinds of things which makes it exhausting or a certain that's heard on the airwaves and i think it's precisely what you have to go against with. you do need support and you need your mentors and your friends who can listen to you. it's difficult. >> i just wanted to just add one thing to what dr. renee was saying.

i think it also goes back to much of our foundation which are here in places like mager and add colleges where there's people of color and we have to as educators as well prepare those writers who are going to step out into the world to really understand this is what you're up against, all right, this is what you're up against. it's not -- they're not going to embrace you and say, oh, this is just so wonderful what you've written. it's not going to happen in most cases. and so you have to be prepared for that. prepare for that reality and i think that you know we have a responsibility those of us who are teaching, you know english courses an creative writing courses an those who are conducting these, you know, msa workshops and things like that to really make sure that as part of that teaching component that

we are actually letting students know and understand what they are dealing with and support systems in place before they go out into this -- this other world. they're not willing to accept them. >> you know, and the scariest part, the young writer or old writer started to self-sense sor -- sensor herself. yes. >> i think he was next. >> thank you so much for this conversation and this outlet. i'm going to try to make it quick, a quick summary. i'm a current student in the mfa program. basically -- in one of the classes -- can everybody hear me? in one of the classes we read

msa versus people of color and, you know, when i entered and did a survey i was one of one and -- [laughter] >> we started the discussion and it kind of behooved me in the sense because the program failed to have a self-kind of -- being self-reflective and say hey, what can we do and all you had to do is go to the website and see 37 faculty, 27 are white. and what i find as a -- you know, a black student in this program is i have this one part of me that's this writer and the other part that has to kind of push this agenda to say, hey, there's other people here that need to be present, which takes an equal amount of energy. >> right. >> where i will give an example of one of the things that i did. amongst writing essays, poetry and memoir, i wrote an essay to the faculty, okay, here is a

nurturing program which most of the faculty i appreciate and provide that support, but this is completely -- it's a complete miss when it comes to people of color. they just totally miss it and we need to address that and one of the responses that i got and i want to hear your comments is faculty that is hard to get, you can't find them. [laughter] >> where are they? >> yeah, exactly. >> that's my -- i know that's kind of more of a rant but i wanted to get your impression on that and what do you suggest going forward? >> i'm looking for suggestions, so i will receive my mfa next month since september or october i have been applying. [applause]

>> thank you. >> so i've been applying for positions all around the country. i've submitted about 30 applications. i've had two interviews. and when i look at the committees they're almost always white and i will tell you that i have more books than the entire committee. >> wow. >> so their response is ridiculous. if they wanted black faculty, they would have black faculty. they don't want faculty. >> right. >> tip the scales. [laughter] >> thank you. >> hi, my name is kevin, i'm a first-year grad student at queens college, first and foremost i would like to say i love everything that you have been talking about today.

it's extremely important to our growth as writers and creators and to play off what this young gentleman said here, i would say that i am in a way a precise example of that because last year when i was applying for grad school i wanted to enroll within the mfa program at queens but after doing some research and i don't mean to either make you feel a certain type of way or attack you -- >> no, no, that's fine, go ahead. >> i felt me personally i didn't feel like my creative writing work was just going back to what we were all talking about, that my work would be embraced amongst the faculty and be understood in a way that not only by the faculty but also my peers could understand the avenues and lanes that i would be coming from, so instead i'm enrolled in the ma program because i'm thinking, okay, as an ma i'm also a great writer,

great academic rrier writer while also pursuing academic lanes on my own, and with that being said, you know, specially in queens because queens is so excluded from the rest of the burrows. it's hard to find somebody like you and i feel like queens doesn't get that attention. with that being said, it's something that i wanted to bring up and he just told us about experiences, i thought it was really profound so i myself at this current moment and time, i've actually start my own publishing press and i -- how can i say this, i -- i'm just trying not only to support my work because i feel like without my own support it's not going to get anywhere. but i would love a fellowship of more people of color to talk

about these things so that we as people, as people of color can harness each other's abilities and play off of this and what's even crazier is that i'm in the ma program and again this is my first year, second semester and in every class i'm either one of three black people or one -- one -- the only black man of color and i'm like man, if this is how it is in the ma program alone, i wonder what it looks in the mfa. so i just thought i would share that with you guys and i'm just trying to see if we can figure and i know that's not happening, just to make you guys aware of this so that beyond the line we can figure out what we can possibly do because the last thing that i will say is that specially with my writing, i'm definitely influenced by the likes of richard wright, so a lot of my writing deals with self-identity nationalism, conflict and finding inner peace

among white supremacy, so, you know, something that is as heavy as those topics and themes, it's something that you have to really embrace with an open mind and not see something for color but deal with the remarkial issues at hand. soso i just thought i would bring that to your attention and i would just want to say that thank you for everything and i truly, truly appreciate this because the moment i saw this i said to myself, this is something that not only needs to be discussed, discussed at the national black writers conference but discussed at every summit in the writer's conference in general and usually kept under the hush, hush which would not be allowed. >> thank you for your comment. i just wanted to respond. i completely honor what you're saying and i'm glad you spoke the truth of your experience because i think that these thing s are very difficult and when i think about my own experience i got a job teaching literature

but i always did my creative writing on the side. i think -- i used to come to brooklyn and still do, as you can see in order to really get my community going. but something i was writing down just as far as alternatives go, you mentioned -- i was thinking about vona, which is a fantastic program as well, and is not -- it's different. let's put it like that.

vona -- i was thinking about a program i taught it's called the watering hole, which is an amazing -- this is proposed. these are -- >> i think he's a fiction writer. >> the watering hole is for poets right now but it's only in its third year. so who knows what they're going to add, right? and vona has everything in it. right? has some of everything. so, these are, again, -- these are program. s that are created by people of color, for people of color, and they're nurturing spaces but challenging spaces, and that is what i really love -- it is. that one of the thing is loved about being at the watering hole. we worked like i don't know what over there. it was intense. so it's constant strategies. you're getting your m and that's brilliant.

some folks will tell you get an msa you might have to struggle to keep your voice. recommend to in of my mentees get a ph.d if you want to teach. knock it out and do your writing where you do your writing of that where i'm at right now. >> that's what i did. >> that's actually what i'm thinking now, right? everyone's path is different, though. >> i think she is next. >> my name is dianne ward, and when you write and you feel you want to be creative, you do that. so i've done that through dance, just been writing and writing and writing and i'm very happy that we have this conference. one thing i want to ask and -- you'll find your niche. you find whatever. so i use blog talk radio do whatever i have to get my stuff out because i'm going to get my stuff out. we then i want to ask -- i was at another conference where

someone mentioned that streets -- this writer retreats are another venue that will get you publishing entree. i've never attended. my i have a masters but not in fine arts. could you give at comment about these writers retreats. >> my experience with retreats, like mcdowell or one of these places, is that i don't know what publishing outlets put you can make friends, perhaps. and that can be nurturing, and your conversations, things may come up. i don't think they are specifically geared to publishing outlets quite. it's putting you in touch with publishers. it's more to sort of sit in a retreat and write. >> but it's a networking opportunity if you can get in.

>> hello, i'm nick map n and -- mann. i'm a writer but i came to writing late in life, and i just wanted to lift up a point of view that i'm not hearing a lot of the conversation is about being nurtured. at conferences like this. this is my first time at this conference. i've been to other conferences. there's a point of view that what you do in -- whether it's workshops or conferences like this, is you get sliced up, and that makes you tougher and that somehow makes you better, and i came to this kind of writing so late in life that i really -- i didn't mind it.

it kind of rolls off the back. but i don't even know what the question is except how too you react to that point of view? that you got to make your writers tougher? >> well, that's a great question. one of the things we were just saying, a good program is challenging and nurturing. i think that's critical. challenging and nurturing. but i feel like when someone gives you a critique if the critique is given in a way that is constructive. you're able to receive that. i'm big on love and on giving critiques with love in a loving way. you give the critique in a way that is meant to help someone grow, and there's a difference between that and a critique meant to stunt someone's growth and meant to oppress someone. so the approach of the critique is critical. that is critical. and all of my mentors have been challenging they've challenge met.

but the ways they challenged me didn't leave me weeping on the floor, unwilling to move a pen. and that is real. that's real. >> i think the other idea for some dish don't agree with that approach at all, but once you get out in the real world, there's no one is going to have mercy on you. some instructors believe, i'm going to beat you up here and force you to grow that thick skin because when you get out there with the wolves, no one is going to hold your hand. >> by the same token, speak as -- i've taught put never done one. would be personally terrified to be a student in an msa program. just because i write in secret. i show it to maybe one friend, if that. and then i work at it. put it under my pillow, put it

in a drawer. spend a long time on my poems. the hardest thing is to read your own stuff from a certain distance. and if you're an msa program that helps you do that, to honor your own voice and to read your own work, how to perfect it, then it's fantastic but if it makes you feel like, my god, i'll never be a writer, it's useless, and i think -- >> at any level of the workshop process, whether it's one of those that is sort of like eviscerates the writer or one that nurtures, you still have to, at some point, develop the ability to be able to accept critique. some people go into writing programs and just think, well, my work is just wonderful and just needs a little editing and that not the case. and so you have to at some -- on some level you have to develop

that ability, because no matter what, 100% of them people are not going to like what you do. period. just not going to happen itch don't care how good you are. so, you have to be able to develop that within yourself, in whatever program you're in, and you have to find the right fit. >> good afternoon, i'm a writer, and my experience is probably different than most msa are us bit went to a predominantly black from at chicago state university. most of my workshops have been predominantly black or people of color. and i have to say i have won major award, and my supporters have not been black. write about africa which confused people. so it is possible to get there without having done -- i want to ask you guys, what is your experience teaching nonblack

students? you're going to earn your msa, probably going to be teaching in a program that is predominantly white. that do youer and anticipate experience being like? >> that its -- that is a very interesting question because for me, i don't teach msa programs but i teach creative writing programs and english courses. so this last semester was the very first time that -- -- in the times i've been teaching i was teaching nonwhite students, and i'll be honest. went into the classroom and was a little intimidated for the first time because i had to start thinking, do i need to restrain my voice? do i need to restrain my opinion? there are certain things that is no-no in the classroom. how are they going to react and respond? what i found was that, as long

as i remain true to myself, it came across in the classroom, and that opened the dialogue in places that it never would have been open before. so, that was a learning process for me. so that is kind of like my experience. it was challenging at first. i -- can i say this' in the class? something i would have said to a classful of african-american students, can i say this, to these five italian guys who are sitting here. how are they going to respond? and it's not, again, like i said, not pulling your voice back or your beliefs back or the way you approach a topic, but if you present it in such a way that gives them the opportunity to -- sometimes for their very first time so see things in way have the never seen it before, that's when the light bulb goes

off and that's part of our responsibility as educators. >> i think the crucial thing is the work, right? the work that you share, that the student produces, i think -- over the work in a very powerful way, whoever the student is and that crucial. also all individuals. everything that we have said is crucial about race and culture and colonialism but there's also what the individual writer puts in front of you, and respond to it as a person and as a writer. >> thank you for your panel. i'm very inspired. i'm from the university of -- so i have two related questions. one of them already answered by professor hill but i'm just going to reiterate what my colleague said. so, i know that i -- mathis is a professor at iowa's writers

workshop, which is the most prestigious msa in the country as far as i know. i also know that ellis is a professor at the same workshop. i also know that in the fiction side of msa, which is hardly taught by an -- the student body is way more diverse than in ellis' class, which is poetry. there's one black student in his class, whereas in her class it's much more diverse. and my initial question, which i think you answered was, if -- from the position of the black professor, which is a position of authority within that class, right? is there a -- is it possible for that black professor to inspire his white students and not just his white students -- to have a

sense of solidarity, a sense of being allies to people of color in their writing? that's one. second of all, related to what miss tallie said about being accepted in the fiction but not in the poetry set of her msa program, there is anything about poetry that sort of prevents black people -- not about poetry but how poetry is perceived by whites that prevents black people, people from 0 -- of dollar be accepted in msa programs and just going to speculate maybe it's because poetry is such a highbrow thing that for a white supremacist, doesn't compute to be talked to a black student or being created by a black person. thank you.

>> i'll deal with the question about the poetry and the msa. thank you for the question. tend to think from the time i put the pen to the paper, one thing i was thinking about was art or our stake. and not art for art sake, right? and so there's this kind of idea that poetry is this thing and it's got to be treated in a certain way and it's this ivory tower. and so i'm thinking that because of where i went, and because of the type of work i wrote, it was more narrative. i know what i write it was dealing with certain types of issues. where i went was -- they were into experimental poetry youch mentioned doing your research and this is critical because i had certain things in mind. didn't do that type of research. when i got to mills it was obvious why they didn't let me in at the poetry program.

my esthetic was completely different than anything they did there in the poetry program. so i think a lot of times if you're coming and you're on a mission, sometimes people -- we talk. about this -- you're putting the message in front of the craft, and so they think that they're going to bump headed with you and they don't want you in there for that purpose. and honestly i'm glad i didn't get my msa in poetry. that what publish most, my heart -- i'm a poet. even when i write prose i'm a poet. i i'm glad i didn't let anybody touch my heart. i keep my stuff to myself and show it to certain people. i'm really, really particular with my work. so, that my take on what happened to me. i can't say what has happened to someone else. i'm sure you have some others. >> looks like --

[applause] >> also the great questions from audience, brought up really good points that we responded to. so, very quickly, vendor ares are out in the hall and please support them. the official -- and fill out evaluation forms. this is a lot of hard work. my latest book i talk about the importance of vision. let's give dr. green a big hand for this vision. every. >> i don't know how she does it, gets better and better every year. and thank c-span book tv for being here and recording this and let's make sure that -- lety social media and share, share,

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[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> hello, everyone. welcome to books at noon. i'm jessica stand, the director of public programs programs pros at the library, and i'm happy today, thrilled, to introduce dr. louis sullivan who is -- i have to read because his long list of things -- a policy leader, minority health advocate, author, physician, educator, serves as the secretary of the u.s. department of health and human services under george bush, and was founding dean of the moore house school of medicine and today dr. sullivan will be discussing his recent memoir, "breaking

ground. my life in medicine." so welcome. glad to have you. >> the. >> this is a bit different because often i do fiction books, occasionally memoirs, but your story -- there's a lot to talk about here and i wanted to just begin -- it's a hard thing to say since i'm not a -- can you synopsize your life in two sentences? i wanted you to just in some very brief way tell the audience what this book covers, and then i will delve in and we'll start through going into specifics, and then build from there. >> well, thank you very much. first of all, it's a great pleasure to be here with you, and to be here at the public library. so thank you very much.

>> you're welcome. >> i guess what i would say, my autobiography is really the strand of my life story because i was born in 1933 in the depression. my father was a life insurance salesman with -- i was the second of two boys in atlanta, but nobody was buying life insurance. so my father left atlanta, went to southwest georgia, and established the first black funeral home in blakely, georgia. but beyond that my father was the social activist because this is during the period of legally enforced segregation. and in southwest georgia in those years for blacks was not a very happy place, but my father was an activist. he founded the first chapter of the naacp in blakely. he filed suit against the county and the state to overturn the

white primary because blacks could not participate in voting at that time. he also started the annual emancipation day celebration, january 1st of every year, in blakely, for blacks to celebrate their emancipation by president lincoln. my father was lifelong republican and identifies himself with abraham lincoln. and so he was quite a social activist mitchell mother was school teacher. and because of my father's activism to try getting the vote for blacks, improving the economy, the retaliation from the white community was my mother never got a job teaching school in early county. >> i remember, yeah. >> so, in that environment, fortunately for my brother, who is a year and a half older -- my brother -- we were sent back first savannah to live with relatives for a year, to attend

school in savannah because schools in rural georgia for blacks were not very good. we that the hand me towns. books from the white school. when they got new books, we got their books. they that a band. the black school did not have a band nor instruments. so my father was really someone who worked to address that, and because he was serving the black community, the whites couldn't bother him. my mother -- in the 20 years they lived from from 1937 to 1957, taught in schools in other counties around there, and interestingly enough, as i was mentioning earlier, she taught in some schools that were built by julius rosen waled. for those who have seen the movie, rosen walled, some of those school mist mother taught in. >> i was stimulated by the one

black dr. in georgia, dr. griffin. >> you met him when your were five. >> right. >> at that point you made a decision you were going to be a -- because he was so miraculous, that magic happened. he could cure people. >> yes. >> and i didn't want to cut you off but my first question was about the three american in your life. it's freezing. if i'm shaking, realize, i'm -- aapologize. i just -- because i don't want you to jump ahead because i want to make sure that we talk about this. the three men that seem to be most influential in your life, were your father. >> yes. >> who was this amazing activist. >> right. >> this doctor, who you met at five. i want to know if you saw him again? was he somebody that you checked in with over time? and said -- told him about your interest in medicine, and then

the third was benjamin hayes -- mayes, the dean ofhouse -- >> the president -- who also was influential in your life. so these three men, aim right, they're the three pillars of the -- i mean, they're -- obviously your mother was influential, too, and women in your lives but these were the three men that helped to guide you in a time -- it was difficult time to decide to be a doctor. >> right. >> to decide to move as you did, so far ahead and a time of segregation and in this town,, too. so the example was your father in many ways because regardless what the environment was, you moved forward. >> oh, yes. the statement that my father and mother gave to me at that time

was that this is not the right system. that we are going to do everything we can to really change it, and we expect you to do the same. and they -- there were no excused. we were expected to excel in school. we were taught to teach -- to treat our elders with respect. so many things we learned from our parents, and dr. griffin was someone, as i mentioned, because he had magical powers, i wanted to be like him. wassed? science and loved birds and tree and nature and all that about he was the per personification of someone who was the expression of learning and service to the community, because that was something my father and mother were all about. >> sure. >> so that was the influence. and then when i went on to morehouse college, -- me as, the

president, per soon identified all of -- personified all of those things and i and the other students at the college wanted to be like dr. mayes. he had great integrity, sought-after speak, always traveling but spoke to the students every tuesday morning, and he would bring in other speakers to serve as role models. the message that he was giving us was also you can beat the system. you must change the system. you -- this is an evil system. we need to do it by democratic process. the protests, bringing out complaints to the public, et cetera. we were, as students, expected to do that, and the most famous graduate is martin luther king, jr., who finished six years prior to the time i finished. so they had a very important --

>> did you feel that you needed to make change or that you're working within a system to get what you needed to come out with in order to make change? was it that you were working towards becoming a doctor so you could implement change, or did you feel along the way you were fighting every step of the way to make change and to get what you wanted, to be a physician? >> yes. well, it was really both. -- dr. mays in his weekly addresses to the students would say things like this. whatever you choose to do in life, you should do it so well that no man living, no man dead, and no man yet to be could do it better. if you commit yourself to that, when they're looking for someone in your field, whether it's engineering or physics or

medicine or business or literature, you are so well accomplished in your field, they will have to consider you. you may not get the job, but it should not be because you're not prepared. so what he was telling us is be prepared for the opportunity so that you can make the change. so he was saying, the way you fight the system is excelling. >> when you got to be you, and you -- where you went to medical school and you were one of 76 -- the only black man out of 76 white students. >> yes. >> and you were also the first time you were in a nonsegregated environment. you had grown up in the south. how was that? talk to just what -- and you became class president and you -- you really did excel. you listened to mays' words. >> right.

>> i'm wondering how it was? did you feel overwhelmed? how were you treated? how did you feel -- did it get in the way? obviously not because you graduated one of the top three in your class, right? aim right. >> that's right. >> but i'm wondering, did it get in the way? how was it? this was -- >> sure. well, for me, this was really a great period of suspense and trepidation because i'd doon well at morehouse, but as you noted, at almost 21, living now for the first 9/11 a nonsegregated society, and being the only black in my class, i had these questions. how aim going to do? am i going to do well? will i meet my parents' expectations? will i meet my own expectations? will i meet morehouse's expectations and because i was the only black, i felt i was

representing the black community. >> i can imagine. >> so if i don't do well i'll let arch down. >> sure. >> so that was -- that kind of experience. and topping that was the fact that most of my classmates had never heard of morehouse. they were from middleberry, harvard, princeton, am hurt, and et cetera, and they all finished at the top of their classes. so to make a long -- the annot a my exam wag was three weeks later and i did well and i relax sodas far as academic challenges i did well. secondly, my classmates were really very welcoming. i didn't get the hostility i feared i might get or being ignored or marginalized; so, it's really -- was a very positive experience for me and with the faculty. so my experience in medical