and i say this just to reveal the complexity of the world at a time when america is about to choose their next president and this is after a campaign season that has been i think it's fair to say like no other. this week donald trump and indiana governor mike pence will formally become the republican party ticket, presidential ticket and beyond that as we are here to talk about today the control of congress is up for grabs. he races across the country and we are going to ask the question will republicans maintain control congress at the house and senate? there are 34 senate seat races up this year, of those 24 are now controlled by the gop and in the house, republicans occupy 247 of the 435 seats in question so let's begin the conversation, we're going to invite oregon congressman greg walden, the chairman of the and are in

ct, the republican national congressional committee and his job is to keep republicans in control of the house, my colleague molly ball writes about politics for the atlantic is here to lead the conversation. molly and congressman? [applause] hi everybody, thank you so much for coming, congressman, thank you for being with us. >> good morning. >> let's start with the question that margaret ask, are republicans going to keep control the house? >> yes. >> problem solved, everybody can go home, this is a short session. elaborate on that a little. why do you think republicans are in a good position? >> thanks to the atlantic for hosting this event. first let me just thank margaret for her opening comments, i know all our hearts and prayers go out to those across the world and here at home been inflicted by violence that we see in terrorist actions that we've witnessed and in part it is the feeling that many americans have of insecurity

that leads us to where we are here in cleveland today. they are frustrated, if you're in the middle class you probably feel like you haven't had a raise in a long time and by the way, you're just about to get your obamacare insurance rates and are going up. in my district yesterday, the day before i was doing town halls in the eastside. everywhere i went that was the talk about what's happening, lack of access to care, these sorts of things, insecurity around the world, too much federal regulation on top and i really think this election can get down to being framed about whether you want to continue things the way they are or whether you're ready real change and i think americans are ready for real change away from this and ministration policy that's the first thing. , we are not running in a vacuum. often the question i get from the pundits are solely about one nominee and that person's potential role or calm.

amazingly, there's actually two nominees or three or four or 52 major party nominees and what we see as we look in these races molly is that hillary clinton is as unpopular in the districts where we are being competitive in most cases, not every single case as donald trump. but what is distinct is that our members and our candidates are very strongly received, especially our members, they had great fundraising, they're doing what they need to do in washington and doing what they need to do at home. i feel good about where we are at. saying that, we have 26 members in seats that barack obama carried so we know and we knew coming into this cycle that we had a different election cycle. that meant different standards for polling, that meant different campaign strategies, everything's going to be different but we knew that going in so we take nothing for granted.

were thankful for the crew we have i'm going to move over here so we don't have to share between us, it's a little more intimate conversation. what would you say is your ballpark? structurally your bound to lose a few seats. what are you looking at so far? >> i don't give out ranges and numbers. i did that last time at 45 and i was wrong . we skated to 247. >> it seems like you're good at this number thing. >> it's a pretty aspirational goal to put it out in all but i feel like we are in really good shape around the country. there will be tapes, we got retirements that create some opportunities, they got some retirements that create opportunities, that's where the playing field will be but this notion that somehow there's 70 or 80 seats in play is rather preposterous. you'd be down to kathy morris roger c, and by the way along the way there are two republicans who don't even have democrat opponents against them so the notion

that somehow this playing field has been opened very wide defies the data, defies logic and i don't understand. >> ,did you think are in play? >> it's the traditional 20 seats where the battleground is, that's probably logically the case. especially if you if you figure we have 26 members in seats that barack obama carried, we got members that are retired . >> you mentioned you get asked a lot about the top of the ticket. what do you think the republican nominee is going to have on your members? >> it depends district by district. in most cases i would tell you donald trump is more popular than hillary clinton as i said at the outset but in addition to that, our members have their own unique identity as they are working in their districts, people know them. they're favorable, unfavorable's are very strong and if you've been outdoing your work in your district your voters know you and i tell you it's a lot easier to

link a democrat the hillary clinton cause he has quintessential establishment democrat party, continue the obama administration forever and ever amen, then it is to link it republican to donald trump. they will try that, they'll have somelimited success they are totally different styles of campaigning . >> it sounds like you are expecting your candidates to want to distance themselves from donald trump. >> the candidates get to do whatever they want. and you will see in many cases we have members and candidates embracing the nominee, they are out on television all the time and in their districts. that happens virtually every time, there are people that further out front with the nominee or not and i think you are seeing that in some cases with hillary clinton to. >> where are some cases where you are seeing that? >> you see it around the country where they are certainly shying away, if there are in the republican seat but there are many where there are trying to, nancy pelosi for example was in omaha the other night and

there was brad ashford and she was asked whether she was there to help her and each of these races, it's going to be different. >> what are some of your favorites? do you have favorite recruits for example, some great stories we should know about of potential members of congress? >> we got good candidates and more that are emerging. if you look at brian fitzpatrick, and his mother brother mike fitzpatrick's seat, hired from the fbi counterintelligence, anti-terrorism work to come home to pennsylvania and run, knocking it out of the park. you go around the country you've got general don bacon in omaha who commanded off it air force base, terrific servant for the country, running a very positive campaign and the d triple c was so scared of him they spent $3300 in his primary to tell voters that he wasn't,

that he was more mainstream. we will take that put it in the back, now what are you going to say in the general election? you've got scott jones, sheriff of sacramento county. you go around the country, terrific candidates from one into the other's. >> are there sleeper bases where you think you are not on my radar as competitive but you see there probably are, that's how we keep them . >> top-secret half? >> all right. you mentioned the issues and some of the things you hear about constituents in your district. do you think that the chaos and instability we are seeing, has that changed the political landscape, will that alter the way people will decide? >> absolutely and i tell you this because we've seen this for the last couple of years the instability around the world, the failed foreign policies of this

administration that remember, it is the obama clinton foreign-policy here, she was secretary of state and she helped design and implement what we have now and it's hard to find a place in the world that more secure and safe, america is more respected many years ago. i have trouble coming up with one. i'll tell you, obviously we now know isis is a jv team. they're organized and they're sophisticated, they always were. this leads into the angst that i think americans feel today that somehow leading from behind his has left us more vulnerable and that's why you see strength in the issue of foreign policy and american security. we know that because we're letting it, where in contact with our constituents and we know that. the democratic congressional committee discovered this just threw focus moving according to the former d triple c chairman. he said we focused it and guess what?we discovered national security is an issue. no fooling. if you have to do a poll to

figure it out you're not in touch with the average american. i think national security is a huge issue. incoming security is a big issue. part of what we saw in this campaign is donald trump on the right and bernie sanders on the left into a similar vein of discontent in america. they had different ideas about where to take that but there's a reason that sanders held on for so long and it is people on the left don't feel secure and i think we can do it better. we think there's a better way forward. paul ryan has outlined that in the gop, it lays out our initiatives for healthcare reform and other budget issues, separation of power, i think that gives america's positive five. >> what about crime and domestic instability? you've talked a lot about being a law and order candidate in making america safe not just from foreign threats but from instability

in our cities, is that something your candidates will talk a lot about? >> i would assume so because it's all part of the same slew of insecurity. you don't feel safe about going out in the middle of the day or on sunday morning in american cities, there's something wrong and you're looking for somebody that can help expect. and when police officers are being literally assassinated now in our cities, nothing is dramatically wrong. from one end of that spectrum to the other in terms of these issues, i think americans are looking for focus and leadership to figure out how to get us in safer terms at home and then you got theterrorist attacks in the us , san bernardino, orlando. does that happen? there are simplistic easy answers, this stuff is hard, i get it but we have to do more and we will do it. >> the answers referred from donald trump involve mostly keeping people out, right? getting rid of foreign intruders, keeping out if not

all muslims, people from certain countries that harbor terrorism. is that the platform your members are uniting on? >> is being very careful abouthow we track people who come here . visa reform, for example. if you look at people who are here undocumented or illegally, half of them, 40 something percent came here legally on a visa and overstayed area they forgot to go home. you got others that try and use the system to come in and do bad things.you talk to michael mccall, our chairman of the homeland security committee can give you all the data but clearly the research is that the security committee has done has determined there are people, not many but enough, it only takes one to get through are trying to use our goodwill as americans to get in here to do harm to us and they gone overseas and train. we have to be very smart about how we go after them and you know, i think you

seen the house take legislative steps to seal surgically with this problem, very thoughtfully . >> you think donald trump is going to win the general election? >> he has every opportunity but we know in america the country is divided did these elections are landslides and 1984 and ronald reagan is going to win 49 states . so it will be a competitive election. i think you're seeing in the polling when you get down to the states that will really need the battlegrounds, it's very competitive or tied right now. >> are using evidence, we hear a lot about rearranging the math in some ways, changing the electoral calculus in terms of which states are in play, which states are competitive. is that something your scene at the district level? >> we are looking district by district, we look at the statewide but our focus is each race in each campaign. but we are seeing places like

if you look at pennsylvania, some recent polling data showed trump up there, there's another poll that shows him down that clearly pennsylvania must be in play and there are other states where he's in play, there are districts that will surprise you where trump is winning so i think there's a bit of that going on out there. i think we will know better on the presidential stage through these two conventions and it kind of settles in. i think our house raises from what we are seeing are independent of the presidential for the most part, there are always influences but for the most part our members are identified, our candidates are identified and their running their own races. >> you think they can be totally independent? i didn't say totally independent, there'salways influence . >> is that saying they are going to be republicans who are maybe supportive of the nominee who will come out just to vote for their congress? >> i think that's a mistake x because of the relationship people halfway it will happen

because we are not going to sit on our hands, we will be doing voter registration to determine who those voters are. we will be reaching out to them, our campaigns will and motivating them to turn out to vote and helping them turn out to vote, it is grassroots on the ground is a really important element of winning any campaign, we're very focused on that. >> talk to me about tactics because we've heard a lot about the efforts that the nominee has yet to make in terms of staff and allocating resources on the ground and advertising, things like that. is that a place where the committee can pick up the slack and where you deployed staff and resources to fill in those gaps? >> we all have our own appeal out there. we do the house, they have the senate, the rnc and the president does that. to his great credit, reince priebus has done a remarkable job at the convention. compare the rnc to the dnc. the dnc has been wracked with controversy, disarray, threats to throw out the chairwoman. there essentially broke and

there helping raise money into that now that they have not had a good run. they've never gotten over the last election which by the way they won in 2012 . and then they fallen into total disarray. conversely, reince priebus has been agreat partner for us and our team in terms of building out data, learning from our mistakes, our polling stunk in 2012 , we think we've fixed a lot of that. we prison proven that to ourselves which is all that matters in 2014, special elections and 14 elections. we narrowed that error rate down significantly and we've done data, digital fundraising very confidently and he sat ground force out there throughout this cycle, not just starting six months ago, i'm talking a couple of years ago where he began to put people on the ground so

in many ways what the rnc has done has been avoided the dnc. hillary may have more resources and money right now and trump is deployed but overall there is some bouncing going on out there and we've been doing our own work. >> how do you integrate with that rnc? >> a lot of it, responsibilities are divided up, state parties have responsibilities all of this, they got their own deal they do. sometimes you join a joint victory center, there are different models that are followed depending on the districts and races but we know in the house we have to take care of ourselves. that strategy has worked. when the senate wasn't garnered in 2012 and obama was elected overwhelmingly we only lost eight seats. we only lost eight seats. we still have the biggest majority since world war ii so we do things differently, we know we have to be able to operate on our own area we love it when we have partners but we know we have to operate on our own . we went into 14 learning from the mistakes of 12, fixing

the data and digital, doing a lot ofother work and we came out with the biggest majority since 28 . that was an off year and the polling is different and this that and the other, of course it was but by the way we had both cycles before. we got these 247 seats. because of this one knowing it's the presidential year, the turnout model is going to be different. nobody expected this kind of presidential year. we are all adjusting but we are data-driven and again i'd rather be off. >> i'm going to throw it out for questions in a couple of minutes so start thinking of your brilliant queries and i will start calling on you after i've given you a chance to think. i want to talk about ohio. i fondly remember traveling around with jim four years ago. what are the competitive seats in ohio? >> a really good question and i think that speaks to and makes my ornament. the d triple c is not spending any money in ohio. >> are you?

>> anybody see the d triple c lay down a dollar in ohio? >> are you spending? no. >> so you think it's off the table. >> i'm not seeing any of these races, i don't see it . i don't see it in bill johnson, jim rence see, they've got to go run races yes but they are confident, capable and the proven electoral vote gatherers and they're doing a great job. show me the high profile race in the house in ohio. the second cycle in a row by the way that they have not, the d triple c hasn't spent time in ohio. this used to be, your rights, a big battleground. go to new jersey. you look at tom macarthur who replaced john runyan. he fell under last time, spent a lot of money and on that seat. the d triple c's recruit to win the primary against a fellow who has 400 bucks in

the bank and went through a terrible bankruptcy. where's the competitive seat there? you go around the country to a race by race, and realized we are in darned good shape. we will have our own set of competitive races, we're always going to have a handful. >> one seed i've always been interested in because i used to live there but because it's a perpetual bellwether is nevada, what's going on there? >> we went through the primary on both sides. good news for us is bell had leased the ticket. i remember when they said i'm going to run for the senate, i said that's the best news i've heard because for you to win the senate, mike thompson estimated his seat, you're going to do everything you can to make sure my common agency and paid off your dues fully .

donald trump winning that district. >> this is the fourth district, several vegas. >> it's more democrat than the third district. but when you have somebody with the caliber of joe heck who knows how to run good campaigns, who is marshaling his fortune come have to be strong in his own district, competitive in the fourth and will when the second. i'll be out there next week helping do some events. speakers will be and do.

we pretty good about those races. now you're into the battlegrou battleground. the group of seats that will be impolite. >> who has a question? i think we have a microphone. >> the rnc is when as the national security party and donald trump has taken a strong position against isis. yet we have never heard him distinguished a sunni from a shiite. he doesn't seem to be aware of the fact that carpet bombing our bombing that all would destroy civilians. he doesn't seem to be aware that the pkk's influence in turkey is influencing how we deal with turkey. he has given no indication that he has any understanding at all of the complexities of the middle east. >> do you have a question? >> yes. how do you feel that your candidate to project an image of strength when he seems to have no understanding or has

projected no understanding of the issues? none. >> i think you're going to see him let out his national security views here at the convention. i think that's the responsible of any candidate to lay out their views. i will not presume to do that for them. we have laid out our views, and further, i look at a continuation of the obama-clinton foreign policy. when you look at iran and the iranian agreement or at least that length out? they are not following the agreement. >> i disagree with you. >> seizing iran is following at? so the ballistic missile test rl take what you are okay with that? i don't think so. [inaudible] >> to break other agreements and that's all right and we shouldn't do anything. [inaudible] >> they are violating agreements they have. this is the point. this is why americans are

frustrated because you get into a bad deal with iran that put israel at peril. and then iran immediately goes and violates other agreements which they have done. >> i do what is to turn into a partisan argument. i think we have heard some good arguments for both perspectives. if i can restate it in a slightly different way. you have alluded to trump being slightly unorthodox republican. i've been interested in whether he leads a permanent mark on the party whether he wins or loses. do you think is changing what the republican party stands for? >> every nominee does their own campaign. they have an effect on the party because they are the nominee of the party and they are the spokesperson for the party because republicans around the country can together and said we want you because you are in touch with what we are concerned about.

there are a lot of folks in america who are very frustrated with security internationally, domestically, economic insecurity, their health care premiums got off the chart. they are looking for a fighter. they know somebody like donald trump can bring around him very talented qualified people like president to do that can provide the rest of the framework if you will but i think his choice of mike pence is a good choice. i served with mike in the house. is a thoughtful guy and i think will bring a great addition to the ticket. it will be interesting to see who else he begins to put in these other slots or puts out for consideration. you billy king. it's not just one person. >> let's go right here. >> i'm a reporter for marketwatch, dow jones. just talking about republican identity again.

on trade mr. trump has said a lot of things about nafta, about tpp are traditionally the gop has been a free trade party so whose party is at no? you yourself supported ttp. is a something that's going to change in the future of? >> a couple things on trade. coming from the pacific northwest we are very engaged in trade. we hope to nike, columbia sportswear, so trade really matters. i wish they would all move over to my district but that aside trade really matters. fair trade matters, could trade deals matter. what i find most striking is that when i was a freshman, bill clinton was in the white house. he had me down as a freshman on the ag committee 12 and effort to get wto recession for china and other deals. we met with the president several times. the democratic party is no

longer the party of bill clinton. it's the party of bernie sanders. when hillary clinton now comes out against that very trade agreement that she had to be part of pushing tpp and says she can't be there, she's been pushed so far to the left you wonder where the constituency for trade remains. if you look at tba which just set the framework for debating trade agreements, i think it passed 228-205 and the house. they were only 28 democrats voted for it in the house. my friends tell you can count on probably have a that most. probably 10 democrats. i think there's still a strong effort among republicans to engage in nashua on trade. there are questions about this agreement that still linger, however, and my guess is if you put out on a vote o on the floor to do it would go down dramatically. the industries that benefit,

i've heard from my ad folks, they are strong in support of it but others have been silent. it's going to take a big effort and perhaps the sidebar agreements to get that moved. >> do you think there's any chance they goes through in the lame duck or is it back to the drawing board? >> don't take this as a partisan comment. i know i chair the republican committee but when you talk to democrats and my friends, they said i don't think we would have 10 votes for it. in the past the democrats under bill clinton, he was able to get 50 or 60 votes. that's what it's going to take. we've always had a -- >> you think the republican votes would still be there if the democrats could get their members together the? >> i do not. tpa was not a trade agreement or it was a set up, conditions for how we consider it as you know. now you into the nuts and bolts the trade agreement. you get down in the south, they

were like we were left out. there's no way we can vote for. upper midwest, pharmaceuticals and issues with the. some of the car manufacturers have issues. he became to hear from your members who say i've got problems with this trade agreement for these reasons. my constituents are unhappy about x, y and z. unless you configure those pieces out somehow, and i'm not sure given how this came together as possible, and yet i know it's important especially in the geopolitical nature. ironically ttp does a lot to box in china and give us an upper hand or a better hand in those negotiations. i was just over in seoul and tokyo and shanghai but, so i recognize the importance of a geopolitical sample, i trade standpoint but there are problems with it internally

unethical preclude a majority vote. >> so many more things we could discuss here i hope we'll see you again sometime. thank you. >> thanks very much. [applause] >> please welcome to the stage david wasserman and anthony. come on down. >> david, i would like you to fact check what congressman walden was saying. he mentioned ohio there's not any competitive races going on. that's true. republicans drew redistricting so we didn't mention was gerrymandered was part of that. i think democrats will probably pick up some are between five and 15 seats with the current outlook. parties have separate challenges. democrats have three challenges in particular.

first there's a message problem. it's been hard for them to die republican incumbents to donald trump because only 70% of house republicans have endorsed him. they also have a timing problem but by the time trump one denomination in may, the filing deadlines have passed with 81% congressional district so it's hard for them to get good challenges. they also but you agree problem. when you consider where hillary clinton is likely to run up the score, the demographic advantages for the democratic party, the demographic shifts that are benefiting democrats are happening in a lot of cases in seats at cases in seats that democrats are result in mass. for example, in kissimmee, florida, those voters are going to democrats and th the senate e can help hillary clinton pretzel to florida for democrats but that's also the house he democrats already hold. for republicans it's much more of a challenge of governing in

2017. paul ryan has reduced hospital by 10 to 15 seats it will be hard for him to get what he wants. they also have an image problem, 87% of house republicans are white men, only 43% are white been. the republican number will go up. >> the challenges you talk about the republicans are not mostly electoral challenges. >> right. this is a majority that is erected majority. 247 republican seats, 188 for democrats. that could be reduced back to what was after 2012, kind of the meeting outcome. you also have the house freedom caucus that's waiting in the wings and potentially expended over 40 members. that means the person with the most predicament this should anyone i believe is paul ryan. i feel like we've heard that so many times this year, poor paul ryan. anthony, i'd like to go to you. you have some new polling i believe on some senate races.

could you tell us about the? >> we look at the senate race, let me start in ohio. we have portman up by a point even as trump is behind clinton 44-40. i think the case is instructive. if portman is up but the point in large part because he or donald trump is having a hard time of a place in keeping the primary voters from folks who vote against them, specifically case voters. he's only getting about half of them. the rest are not going to hillary clinton. they are say they're undecided. they could haven't come around to india. they are saying they may not vote on their just hanging back a while. people talk in broader terms about will the top of the ticket be a boost for a drag on the ticket. i think in the case of donald trump and all the republicans,

indicates that the republicans are running in the blue states, the extent to which he can help unify the base, the party, the extent to which you can bring over some of those reluctant republicans is really a lot can is behind a lot of his numbers why he says he is not even doing a soldier as he is in iowa were also called but also i think at this point it portends well for portman spent the apartment up 41-40, correct? that's very close. there's another interesting things it suggests that it suggests that the a lot of ticket splitters in this election but we been told for years tak tickets but it is different will it make a comeback speak with ticket splitting is almost dead. it's almost all by support. if you look at the national trends or you can go back to 20 or 30 years and find about a quarter of people who split

their tickets in some fashion either for senate or in the house. now it's down to something in the mid-single digits, five, 6%. last year obama retains about 95% senate to house and roughly same with romney. will that make a comeback this year? potential yes, but there's a couple, we think about ticket splitting think about the dynamic behind the. there's one theory this is people, they are less than for voters who come to the polls and go straight party. there really are not that many such voters. the other one though is kind of interesting. if you are a reluctant republican and not quite there with trump and let's suppose you do go over to hillary clinton, by the way very, very small numbers of folks on the polls, do you then vote for a

republican senator because it might end up being clinton the president but i want to check on her presidency. is that candidate reverse? that's another i think will be interestingly to watch. >> reluctant republicans to soccer moms 2016, the hot group to watch? >> but it's a mix in the polls. we know the story. there's some moderates and independents who are not quite with trump yet. just put a note on he's been about the mid '70s with conservatives and republicans. he needs to get to the mid '90s. clinton by contrast is in the mid '80s with liberals and democrats. he's got a ways to go. are they the soccer moms? there's a mix of people who are

very conservative who don't yet think he represents the absence of the value of the party. you may see some very, very conservative voters who are not yet ready to back them. if they stay home and this becomes a turnout problem. >> david, as you mentioned the democrats, they're basically whole strategy is to tie house candidates to donald trump, put them in ads together over and over again. you see evidence so far that has not yet affected. >> it make although it be defective in some cases. with regard to ticket splitting i think anthony is right. the voters are likely to split their tickets in this election are likely to be well-educated, higher income voters. traditionally has been the group that has differentiated between the top of the ticket and their

congressional ballot. in this year we see it is likely to vote for hillary clinton in the top of the ticket and consider republican down about than vice versa. democrats are doing everything they can in these ads, particularly in the 26th district president obama carried the house republicans hold. the republicans are putting party and the country. we will see if that resonates as we get closer to the election. >> party image plays a role in this, too. some of the poll questions we've asked come has the nomination until the clinton made you think better or worse of the democratic party. outside of liberal basis for her the answer is no. when asked has the nomination of donald trump made you think better or worse of the republican party, the answer is no. so if you want to talk in sort of brown terms about whether or

not these nominations sort of helped the senate candidates who were running and his running under the party label, the edge at this point seems to be a wild card on the side of no. having said that, the republican incumbents running in blue states are not names and at least gives them a chance and that's why you see them and see them say our party is, i represent our party more so than donald trump does and that's the distance somewhere like mark kirk or kelly ayotte are some of these folks in blue states seem to be going. >> image and mark kirk, kelly ayotte. who are the most vulnerable republican senators? >> what happens in in 2014 by comparison we saw this perfect storm in favor of republicans. a lot of vulnerable democrats running in red states, states romney had one.

this year it's very much the reverse of that. you've got numbers, six or seven, who are republican sitting senators are now an open seat or two who are running in states that are reliably blue. you've got to race in new hampshire, and ohio, mark kirk in illinois. florida is interesting. the poll will suggest rubio has an edge at this point. under democrats were hopeful that could be a seat that they would pick up. there's michael bennet in colorado which it does seem to have an edge in the polling, at least at the outset. those are some of the top ones. this string of republicans sitting in blue states where, that's where they are worried. >> is your big picture prediction a pick up a few seats for democrats? >> simply by the numbers they are likely to pick up a few.

whether or not they get the number they need, whether or not they get the six or a thai vice presidential, that's the wild card, he can pick a tie, or get the majority. that i think is not yet clear. >> how do you see the geography of the house landscape? chairman walden about this and he mentioned implementing it may be more competitive than most presidents years because of the demographics of donald trump appeal, the way generate more enthusiasm among white working-class voters. quite a bit less among minority and younger voters. does that alter where you see competitive districts? >> that's a great question. i agree with the chairman pennsylvania is a state to watch. the golden triangle is florida, ohio and pennsylvania. if you start out with 260 electoral votes the republicans carried into a 12 and work your

way up and see where does donald trump need to went to get to two under 70 i don't see a path without winning both florida and ohio. what was the next closest aides in 2012? colorado, virginia and pennsylvania. i tend to think colorado and virginia are very poor states for donald trump because they're younger states, more diverse, the economy is doing better. if there's one state that could be opportunity if he truly is competitive, it is pennsylvania. there are not a lot of house races that would be competitive there but florida, allow and pennsylvania will go a long way in determining the outcome. if i had to pick two house races, nebraska second district and maine's second district. what do they have in common? >> a lot of old white people? >> keep in mind is also the to only states that divide their electoral votes by congressional district. donald trump will be targeting northern maine in this election. that is 94% white, blue-collar,

paul lepage won by a big margin and hillary clinton decided to counter by opening a campaign office in omaha, nebraska. barack obama was the first democrat to carry that congressional seat and split the state electoral votes. we will see whether she can put that suburban more diverse district in beaumont in play and, of course, that's just one electoral college vote in each of those places. it still could be interesting. >> it could have an impact speed of both the seats have vulnerable house freshman. democrat brad ashford in nebraska is the first democrat to get elected in nebraska to the house since 1982. and republican bruce in northern maine is the first republican to get elected to the house in maine since 1994. you have an interesting symmetry in the districts as well. >> one of the ideas that chairman walden mentioned was this idea that donald trump is going to be a drag on the republican ticket doesn't

account for the fact hillary clinton as a drag on the democrat side of the ticket. she's also extremely unpopular. do you see that being the case? >> i think a lot of us pay exclusive attention to donald trump because hillary clinton is pulling just as badly in term of her image in her favor build as of donald trump. we see this across the house landscape. there is a game ending. take minnesota. in the iron range we have a lot of blue collar working class traditionally democratic voters donald trump is balding pretty well. that's the key house race the democrats need if they're going to pick up a double-digit gain a seat. bubut on the event in minnesota second other districts have a suburban electorate outside the twin cities where a lot of white-collar republicans will be voting against donald trump. that embarrass republicans strangle hold on those seats that has been the case for over a couple decades.

there is an interesting symmetry between the opportunity to shoot for democrats and republicans at the house level. >> do you see any impact of the third party candidates? we heard they may get more of my chair than usual because of the unpopularity of the republican and democratic candidates. what potential effect would that have? >> they are doing relatively well. i've seen some in the low double digits -- >> said gary johnson specifically or a combination? >> i've seen both. i've seen him alone in double digits and i've seen a combination and ours can get to a combination that is close or just under him. one is the third party candidates historically poll much better than they actually do. the thinking there is the mindset of voter find walks in and says this process probably not going to win so that it and

major party candidate, or they stay home. the polls rule of thumb is you divide that in half. that's what we've got at this point. having said that and david's point, these things are going to be so close let's not dismiss the idea of even 45% having an effect. if it's an effect on turnout or on a boat that goes away from one party or the other that could make a difference. all we can say is that if you look at the stability of gary johnson's vote, it is consiste consistent. of these over the last few weeks, even more than a month. he's been steady at where he is in the polls. >> it's only going to get more interesting. thank you, everybody. now time for your next lineup. [applause] >> thank you, molly, david anthony.

next up michael steele, republican party chair from 2009-2011. before that maryland's lieutenant governor. is now an msnbc political analyst and he is here with my colleagues washington editor at large steve clemons. taken away. >> michael, thanks for joining us. i know you're very uncomfortable with all these republicans run. i know it's complicated for you. you are on record many times talking about donald trump and now he is proving everyone wrong, that he is clocked 16 other challenges. the kind of political hundred to class i would say many of them think he has no chance to win. can you give us your view of what will unfold, but what does this path to the presidency look like? >> i think in large measure is path lies where it's always been, and that is out across the

heartland, out in neighborhoods and communities that have been forgotten for a while i both political parties. he has this uncanny ability to keep it real. we are conventional people in politics. we like things neatly packaged and the like the crisply delivered sound but that doesn't think anyone and doesn't do anything to unravel the status quo. and along comes this guy can hit basically flips everybody the bird and he starts talking about body parts and he starts using foul language. and you know what? guys and gal sitting on the couch looking at this, finally, somebody who understands me. when you go back and look at a focus group that in new hampshire and i talked about this a lot because it was the moment where i would off, i get

it now. with this blue-collar working mom of two in new hampshire when asked about donald trump, response was he's one of us. really? how doe does that work? is a multibillion a guy from new york. you are here racing your kids trying to make ends meet. what she was saying he connects with the on the things i'm really angry about and he articulates that. he manifest that in a way that i think works for you. as you listen to the panel about some of the pathways and the process, donald trump is not worried about the process. think about this. he said probably the worst six weeks to do with any political candidate we've ever seen in history have. can al we all agree on that? the latest polls have been what, tied? sum up by three, some done by seven. let's make it worst case 12.

what does that say about where the american people are right now? it tells you they're in a different space than with the political establishment types are. spent when you say that on msnbc, you were on with mika and joe and she was worried about the fact is that been able to pull into celebrities to the convention. is she just competition that did or did it look at you like from mars? >> oaks generally think of the march anyways i'm used to that part. if not even a question test at the question of connecting the dots. can we get caught up with the idea of donald trump just doesn't care? can we get comfortable? when you get comfortable with a space then you can begin to move into some of the other spaces in need to move into understand what this election is. will have all the celebrities go all this. who does he really want out in

front of america this week? does he want big hollywood stars and big music as? not that he wants his children and his wife. this is about branding, identity identification politics. in other words, we want to reinforce the identification you meet with us a will give you the narrative to go along with a lot of the flash that you have seen. so we doesn't really, he is not faced by the. it is get into one is upset that we've got the list of stars or see list are not start showing up. >> but he seemed to care at least in some level anywhere but about the vp choice. while we were all watching whether this was a real coup or figure something out on a turkey he was going to announce his vice presidential choice of mike pence. it seemed to me, you know all these folks present id but it

seemed to actually inauthentic moment of, for donald trump. that he did not want mike pence. how did that unfold? do you agree? does mike pence helping out in the long run? everybody on the inside knows chris christie is who we really want. >> i think in a real sense he was torn between what he saw himself going in this administration in the kind of party wanted to help them get there into the things he needed to do. even before that having someone who could effectively prosecute the case against hillary clinton. i think we can all agree clearly chris christie was probably the best at doing that. i think he really wanted to go in that direction but the family had a different perspective. i think paul manafort had a different perspective that what they were looking for were a number of things. someone who could come and begin to bring the party closer into his orbit.

and to stabilize that universal a bit more. despite this to your donald trump say and how he says it, the impression at least is a but as like, wasn't a great? that's not necessary how is is played at the people have been genuinely concerned about many elements of the last six, eight weeks especially about missed opportunities were there and things like that. particularly his daughter who is savvy, smart and really kind of clued in on two sides. one, her dad and that that at all that it also this process and the politics of it and his been trying to kind of renegotiate some of that. that was a lot of attention. i think his head and heart was really with christie, but i think it was a lot of pressure for him to go with someone who

could help bring the party in back into orbit for him, particularly given this week the government will not there's been a lot of other keepers will not be at the table. speakeasy a lot of it right around town. john kasich to all sorts of speedy he is a who would and should be. >> when you were running the gop and running the party did you have this element of the folks there sitting home same donald trump really represents a? the sort of angry white working class person who didn't have a party can now be do. with a part of the calculus you had to deal with? >> yeah, yeah. it was in a different form that it is today. a lot has changed in the last six years but i remember back in april of 2009 having a meeting with about 50 people from around the country who wanted to meet

with the new rnc chairman. as i said in our boardroom. they sit down and they start high, welcome, welcome. and they're like we are passed. okay. let's talk. so that was the beginning of the tea party. i asked them all a bit more about what is this all about? they said we are about a party that has left us. we are about constitutional principles that seem to be ignored. we are about taking seriously the fiscal responsibility that we have to the american people, et cetera, et cetera. that was in the early days of this movement. we've seen how it is since morphed and changed into other things but out of the box i got the sense of where this was going. michael that that point was to really understand it, to try to figure out how do we keep this anchor from ripping at the edges

and certainly within the interior of the party. i think we navigated that very welcome particularly given the fact they started to recall and taking up some of our incumbents, mike castle of delaware, bennett of utah, arizona. we were losing folks in nevada and elsewhere. it was a matter, let's come back to the table and talk. what do you want? let me tell you what i want. i need you to back our guys and we will back your guys. you guys are successful in the primary. we will be there to fight with you. our guys are successful in the primary venue be there to fight for us but we cannot have a shooting at each other and taking each other out. we focus energy around some very clear ideas around the economy, certainly about health care the beginning of the obamacare debate.

it crystallized in the fall of 2010 with the fire policy effort which by the way -- fired nancy pelosi effort. we got to the point of recognize what was going on in small communities, the same thing big communities, same thing going on nationally. we would take a national issue wrapped around nancy pelosi in the argument if you want your dogcatcher doing a better job, you need to fire her. they are like exactly. and that's what happened. that's what's missing now. >> we talked before so the audience does not have the benefit of further conversations but you've always said that there is some uncomfortable conversations that need to be had in the republican party on race, on gays come on inclusion. i'm come on inclusion giunta is one thing when you're sitting there talking about these groups that felt like the party left them, when you look at it today and give black lives matter

groups protesting and race is clued in issue in this campaign, whether it's same-sex marriage or lgbt implement rights, the party doesn't seem to be in a place where it wants to step forward. how do you deal with that? as the strategist do you try to all those office it will not discuss the now if you want to win or do you just dive in and say we are not doing either the nation or our constituents a service if we don't. >> i think you have to dive in. we have walled off enough. we've done enough ignoring, forgetting, pretending it's not there. >> how do you do that with mr. trump? >> one of my frustrations with donald trump is that a guy i work with over the years and have gotten to know is not a guy that i see everyday on tv. >> tell us about that guy. >> like i've got to know if

someone who genuinely cares about workers. because the individuals, communities of people. he is a guy and i'm hoping these stories come out this week and maybe this is where the family wants to go with some of his but he is a guide who to this day still paying the bills for employers who left his employ 10, 15 years ago who were having health care issues or having job issues. >> with a black? >> yes. like, hispanic, why do. didn't matter to him. if you were some who worked in his family, and he helped. he figured out a way to help. that side of his narrative is that get discussed. people like to talk to all the people be fired but no one is talking not that other side where he is genuinely put his own resources, personal resources the disposal of others who work for him, who worked with him.

we've seen a that no one is allowed to this narrative do define his persona, which is largely defined himself in many respects, but there are other narratives about him and how he has engaged with people. i think to the broader issue of race, i'll be honest, i'm not looking to barack obama. i'm not looking to hillary clinton. i'm looking to donald trump to start resolve this conversation. if you are then you are fools. because the rabbit of it is white folks and black folks need to, to an understanding that there's a real tension that no one is addressing, that no one is getting too. i was in a conversation the other day and someone was making the point about the goal is to make sure everyone has economic opportunity and resources and implement. let's do that. as a black man i got the big

house, the great job but the problem is on my way home to the greathouse from a great job i get pulled over by the cops. then what do i do? it doesn't matter how rich i am, how much money as a bank or where i live. i am a black man in a car at 1 a.m. on a dark highway with a top. >> do you get pulled over? >> i have. >> we need to talk about that. >> the reality is it doesn't matter unless you are beginning and prepared to have that conversation. look, i've had a conversation with my boys, 27 and 24. i said when they first started driving to things. one, when you're out and you get pulled over to your the most dangerous person in that car. you have three white boys in you, you are the most dangerous person. lo and behold just weeks ago a friend of mine recounted that story to us on the exact same situation. the cops saw him, the whole

dynamic and the mood changed in that situation. fortunately nothing happened but his son said i could sense the difference. when you are pulled over, this is what you do. us in position to roll down all the windows, turn the dough light on, and set 10 into. when asked do you know why pulled you over? no, sir, i do not. that is a conversation that black families are having with their sons right now as we speak. a lot of folks are ignorant of that. a lot of folks don't appreciate that. some folks don't even care about that. but it goes to the heart and the root of what we are seeing happening right now on the streets of our country. i'm telling you invest we are serious and having this conversation, engaging with this attention, it's going to get worse not better. it's not barack obama's fault. it's not mitt romney's fault. it's not the republicans or democrats fall.

it's us as americans. we stopped giving a damn enough about each other and we just want to take out all the pain of jobs and unemployment and poor education and it's your fault that i am not successful. that's not what america is. >> i want to go to the audience for questions. we need delegates around town, the either, some of them are really excited, they may be from kansas something and others are looking a little lost, days entities. a lot of people think this is awash with you because there are other players involved. i love this quote. i guy said with regard to trump and the rest of the party ended with else running in the party it's like holding onto a boat in the middle of the ocean and trump underneath hanging on to you. i'm wondering, this week which

is going to be so much about donald trump but there's a huge republican party apparatus. does it have everybody or hurt everybody? folks running for governor and senator and house and other folks on the ticket and elsewhere. >> is a drag? i've really not bought into all of that for a number of reasons. i think people in large measure, they're smart enough to part. if their anger and frustrated with the entire party as was in 2006, i know this firsthand, no matter how well you are doing you will not win. that's a party problem. if their anger and frustrations with an individual candidate countries with the individual. if i met that you were in i'm not going to take it out on you if you're already in service or whatever. people really kind of parse that

for themselves and i don't see that as this is the kind of election where people are just met at the entire party to the tune for the takeout sent and house members. when it comes to the house, i like to make jokes. i built that house so it's not going anywhere. just get that notion out of your mind. senate olivia morgan play. some weak candidates. let's be clear. they were week before donald trump showed up at they had a problem before donald trump became the nominee. so for marco rubio anybody else with a nominee, those candidates in places like new hampshire and wisconsin and pennsylvania, not necessarily was that they were on the bubble. they are red senators in blue states. this is a presidential election and we know how we've done national and presidential elections.

we've got to be a little careful about how we look at that. >> we have just a minute left i want to get questions or comments on the floor from those of you interested in posing a question to michael steele. >> david is the coolest dude next to michael steele. >> him in honor of brexit, david, this is for you. >> if it's going to be in the redraw of the map this cycle do you guess it could be people being persuaded across party lines or to you by this i did some magic thing happening with turnout, people have never voted before? part of the evidence is that the big turnout in the primaries and people say that's a misleading data point. tell us about what you think will happen. >> i think that's a good question. you are right that there are some misleading data point

regarding the primary because you a lot of republicans who voted in the primary who were largely in have been for a long time general election voters. they were not necessarily new voters. they just vote later in the process. there were new voters again and the couch potato vote with given up on the process who said this is enough for me to give him. i think what's going to happen this november is i think we will see more people turn out. i think the debates are going to be the most watched public event in history of this country. i think that people, people have of you and opinion on this cycle about these candidates. they are not light so this idea that likability translates into electability doesn't apply. this has not been an ideological race. a little bit on the left with

the burning factor about ideology. not that big policy raise. 12-point plan when it today. you know 40-point plan for winning today. they are not. people don't give a damn. it's not about that. i think it's about something that's more personal for the voters. that's going to drive them out. these candidates and then in a way that make them want to lash out with their vote. i think this will be a good. a healthy turn the. i hope there is. democracy is a precious gift, and not everybody gets to celebrate it around the world. we deal. we should take advantage of that. so go vote and express your love, dislike, whatever you want to call it for your candidate a vote. >> it just occurred to me we both are from maryland to you ran for senate in 2006 against ben cardin. didn't go as you hoped.

is ben cardin safe or are you thinking of coming back one day? >> i would like to get back in the game. absolutely. i love public service. sin is a real possibility. the reality of it is it's a very, a genuine opportunity to give back for me. i want to be a priest so this idea of public service is meaningful and personal. when i was lieutenant governor -- >> you can't keep the msnbc contract. >> but that's a long way off. not now. not running now, be clear. but no, down the road. it's a real opportunity and i try to make a difference every day. >> ladies and gentlemen, michael steele. good to be with you. [applause] >> thank you michael steele and steve. that was a thoughtful way to begin the day. i want to thank our underwriters for making the week possible.

american potomac institute and makers mark to speak at baker's more, cocktails and conversation starting at four. we'll be talking about energy and the environment. a little earlier in the afternoon at 2:00 steve will be back with tom cotton of arkansas. thank you all so much for being here. we hope to see you all week. [applause] ♪ ♪ [inaudible conversations] arkansas senator tom cotton also spoke at this plan to council event earlier this week. the vice chair of the national republican senator committee talked about the effects of the 2016 presidential race on the senate race his organization was hoping to win.

>> good afternoon and welcome to atlantic's convention headquarters. we're happy to see you. i am margaret low smith, president of atlantic live in this our first atlantic exchange at the convention, conversation with tom cotton. just a couple of fact notes before get started we are on twitter of course, hashtag the atlantic rnc. we will spend about 30 minutes with the senator and have time for questions so you can be thinking during the course of the conversation what to ask. and on to our special guest. senator cardin is 39, the youngest person in the senate, a rising star. he has a law degree from harvard, sharpton both in iraq and afghanistan won a bronze star. he became a household then we led the opposition to the obama administration nuclear deal with iran. he sits on the senate intelligence armed service and banking committees and the he is vice chair of the national republican senatorial committee

meaning it is his job to keep republicans in control of the senate and he is here today to talk about politics and policy with the olympics washington editor at large steve clemons. steve, senator. the floor is yours. [applause] >> thanks for joining us. did he do it all of you and i want to see a special hello to her audience on c-span that's checking in with his life today. i was just trying to warm up with the senator and i noticed that the coolest part of this profile is he grew up on his family's cattle farm in arkansas. i did what anyone as, i said with a milk or beef cows? pecos beef. and i said to get any of them have pets? spent to end up dying so we be condemned, not. >> we had lots of ducks and geese and dogs. >> so there's a from the site to your pet heritage. you are vice chair of the

national republican senatorial committee which means you are responsible in the way for what comes next in terms of the republican footprint in the senate. what would you consider to be a success? what would you get fired for and say time did a really poor job? when you come out and win the election how many seats do you think you wil have one that woud beat expectations? >> we want to hold the majority in the senate because america will be safer and more prosperous with a republican congress and republican presidential. we have 54 seats which means we will need to hold or lose no fewer than three or four depending on who wins the presidency. i feel very good about where our incumbent senators and candidates our position. we've known this would be a tough republican race cycle. we have something like 24 senators running for reelection to the democrats only have about 10.

most of the competitive races are taking place in purple or blue states but we have a lot of great senators, ron johnson, rob portman from ohio, pat toomey, kelly ayotte who are very good politicians, good fits for the sticker i'm confident they will bend to have a lot of good candidates running in other states as well like joe heck, a brigadier general insurgent at the army national guard or army reserve i should say who's running to take harry reid's place in nevada. we know it's going to be a tough cycle. we know the races will be close. >> right now you feel good about that if you come in and a lot of people look at what the, what you can afford it or 50? when i feel like a mandate carried by the other side? >> i would be disappointed not only because we would not have the majority with 49 or fewer, maybe 50 if hillary clinton were to win the white house that i

would be disappointed because some of the people who fought got to know and who i served the last couple of years who i think are very patriotic americans and capable senators would probably have lost the race as well. i'm confident that's not going to be the case, we will hold our own. >> i think many of us have on the minds particularly include is how the gop islands are there out there that you need to unite? when you go around the country and you have the response time the country together, succeed in different places like new hampshire and ohio, the issue range is enormous and you said this in your own support of donald trump. how big is that bandwidth? how wide is that that you folks have got to bring people along and wanted issues that matter the most as to go talk to the american public? >> we have a very diverse country. we have 325 million americans, and arkansas is a different domain for instance.

name is represented by susan collins and she and i work closely together on whole range of issues but that doesn't mean we see eye to eye on every issue but she's one of my closest friends. she's a good fit for state like kelly ayotte is a good fit for her stay, pat toomey for his and i am for mine. in the in, i think we share some basic concerns. most people because most people are not rich haven't seen a pay raise in the last eight years. they see the cost of living go up, especially the cost of health care. they are struggling to make ends meet their struggling to pay for the health care. they're worried about the chaos we see on the streets around the country today whether it's racist cop killers assessing police officer for the second of a jesuit or whether it's the threat of islamic terrorism, the shootings we've seen in san bernardino and orlando or the awful attack we saw last week in nice that can very easily be brought to our shores.

when you look around the country the we have very diverse country, diverse people i think at root at the same kind of concerned everywhere you go. >> you at aspen ideas festival. another person that was there was caitlin jenner. she came out and said donald trump is the person she once end of donald trump would be great for the trans community in america. does that bandwidth work for you? >> i think we want to appeal to every american of all stripes in all 50 states. it's clear we don't always appeal to every republican in states like california. we've had tough times even though it used to be a republican state that we want to be a part of all americans. the democrats have been a party that is a very eclectic and diverse group of voters. some of them don't always share the same common themes. they find a way to get together

election after election. we want to appeal to all americans across the common set of concerned. >> i just heard in the "washington post" in the republican platform a provision was taken out or stripped out about i know you cared about, about the ability of the united states to sell ukraine weapons, offensive weapons but weapons in part to defend themselves against russian aggression. the fact that this has been taken out of the gop platform is one that i would find to be somewhat at odds for a lot of people who read by the national street equities of the country. how do you have that conversation in a smart way with your caucus? i think if i could imagine if that happened in the democratic

caucus, and i don't know what's in their platform -- >> how many democrats oppose the presence pulse on that comp it very well may be. >> i can imagine you racing big red flags and single be something that would concern you. to you have concerns about your own party? >> i haven't reviewed all 40,000 plus words of the platform as written and will be a topic this week's i don't know specifically what it says. i of course think we should have long ago provided ukraine with some of the weapons and the additional intelligence they need to defend their own territorial sovereignty. as i mentioned, the democratic party as well. early last year most members of the senate armed services committee called for that. many members we now know from reporting the obama administration called early on. president obama continued to resist the. becomes a platform on foreign policy and national security, i

think the very specific detail sometimes is not called for because the work is so dynamic and we don't know what necessarily it will look like come january 20 as compared to the summer of 2016. i think on foreign policy and national security in particular what a platform should you ins and outs of basic principles we have as a party, how we handle a particular situation with this new president come under carter's, a matter of practical judgment. i hope ukraine doesn't need new defensive weapons in january because a hope that russia has withdrawn all of its support for the rebels and withdrawn their troops in crimea and that sovereign territory again. >> i'm interested what you worry about the most. when i travel around the world i think it's hard not to feel the worry that other leaders have about american withdrawal.

>> there's a lot of worries unfortunately when it comes to our national security. the most immediate, most urgent is the threat of terror attacks including the threat of mass terror attacks. we had almost 50 americans killed in orlando and in nice france last week there were 84 people killed, being run down by a cargo truck. lord knows what the islamic state or al-qaeda would do if they could get their hands on even more deadly weapons. but more broadly looking around the world to other adversaries like russia, china, rogue states like iran and north korea i worry about the loss of american deterrence and credibility deterrence once lost as a hard thing to regain. deterrence is a combination of both your ability to use force to protect your interests and your will is to do so. the point of having a credible deterrent is not to have to use force. one of the reason for the

world's strongest which is we don't have to use the military to begin with. our actuaries know not to challenges. we have seen an erosion in our capabilities because the military has seen budget cuts over $120. we are doing what we can just to keep our soldiers and sailors, airmen and marines were on the front lines properly trained and equipped. but also we've seen a loss of the credibility of our threat most suspect that you were in the famous red light in the series where barack obama to every length about the use of chemical weapons and then didn't enforce that red line. you know you go to different security systems, whether northeast asia, southeast asia, the middle east and europe, the one thing have in common is the united states. specifically the united states credibility. it struck they would you going to see jesus outside the middle east how many leaders will specifically cite the red line

as a concern of theirs and what it means for you security. >> if that deadline had been triggered and we've taken action, but a potential lead to some escalation with russia and led to the dispersion or loss of control of chemical weapons, with those have been tolerable costs to have had versus the taking action on the red lake? >> first i would take issue with the premise of the question. i would not have said it would've led to an escalation with russia. russia escalated in syria in part when you saw the united states was not willing to defend our interests. second, the deal we ended up cutting was not on a massive loss of credibility, it did not deter syria and continue to use chemical weapons against their own people. that since been reports their once again using serum gas.

i think you're practical applications of the failure considered in addition to what i've talked about around the world. >> when you're a soldier and we all want to thank you for service to your soldier government overcome you've been an attorney and went over and up sure you in touch with many of the people you fought with. i'm interested in soldier then return back and maybe they haven't gotten on the server track or public service but i think many of them have come back and run into an economy that's been rough on them. that's been tough to find jobs and positions. i know a lot of relatives in oakland and texas and kansas and many of them to support donald trump have been frustrated that if go out to second with the country and many, home to such a. had to collect an associate and military felt that? had held the kind of deal was broken by america somewhere? >> i have friends who struggle to find work or find work better suited to their experience and skill sets. >> so people you fought with?

>> people i thought with and trained with stateside assault with. i think that's partly the result a lot of this is not appreciated the skill sets an attribute you gain in the military. take me and my soldiers. we were infantrymen. you don't get -- you learn and tangible skills that are viable leadership, mission focus, discipline, teamwork and so forth. take wal-mart which does a great job of hiring veterans in my state. wal-mart can drink anyone to operate a supply chain. they can teach people to run their inventory system. they can't teach what we learned in combat. there needs to be more companies in the world like wal-mart who appreciate not just the tangible skills that a soldier can bring because some of them are transferable. if you're a pilot and air force you can become a pilot for an airline.

if you are a specialist you could go to work for fedex picked but the intangible skills that all veterans have that they can take on the job, get on the job training for most workers do anyway. the second thing is in general as you said, our military is disproportionate represented by states like arkansas and missouri and oklahoma and other states. in many of those states that economy has not been doing as well as we might like. most voters are concerned about the well being of the family and being able to put food on the table. we see an economy in which the bottom 80% of households, you go from the work for all the way up to the middle class, upper middle class deepened have not seen a big increase, any economic growth picked will be hard on those folks to get jobs and it just so happens they are disproportionally supplying the new recruits for our military. >> when you hear donald trump speaking to the energy, and i

do, i listen and i said i understand, i've got about 100-second cousins. a lot of it has to do with this notion of service and its inability to get jobs. what is that like inside the republican caucus? this seems to be a very new current at least in terms of my observation. how deep is that? is that you support donald trump, support your nominee who will be nominated this week. are all the republican leaders jumping on that message? >> first on the veterans issue, yes, donald trump has been a very strong advocate for veterans. he lay down a set of policy reforms. some of it builds upon what we in the congress did two years ago with a ba choice act trying to our veterans and local committees rather than funneling them into one big institution at a va hospital. some of his also about getting economy moving together to put

can find a job to include veterans. no one will agree with it all the time. i have lots of disagrees with my colleagues that i some disagrees with the donald trump as well but i think america will be safer and more prosperous with a republican president and a republican congress than they do with a democratic president and democratic caucus. our agenda is better. >> had hung out with the donald trump much? >> not one-to-one but he's been to washington and met with senators and congress as recent as last week. >> does he say tom connelly national security guy, and you sit down? you said when he finally weaves the intel that you've read people think differently. has he acknowledged that any with? >> most recently when donald was in washington and visiting, i suggested back in march our military this substantial increase in its budget. that's going to have to start in

my opinion early next year. you can debate about the amount of money in the middle of the fiscal year, the department can only assume so much new money and get it properly programmed. we need in the first 10 100 dayn emergency program. and then build upon that in the next annual budget to get back to something like would've been if we'd not seen these drastic cuts. i think donald trump strong supports that. he said that publicly. again not so we can fight and win the war of the we might be facing in the future but so we can stop the war from happening in the first place as we didn't do much of the cold war. >> what would you advise us on the iran? one year into the iran deal, the iran anniversary and some are saying it's a mixed record that on the one hand you've got centocor and centrifuges taking apart. a lot of very measurable points of success.

we haven't had a relation but donald trump said he would rip up the gipper he would keep the do. ted cruz said he would rip up the do and other people would. what would you advise him when he comes in if you were to win office? what should he stick out with regards to something like the iran arrangement? >> iran is not following the deal so i would suggest walking away from it. ..

with little out of united states to confront iranian aggression. it has done exactly the opposite of so many people predicted at the time. it has empowered iran to be more aggressive to take a chance of confronting them because the ayatollahs note that the united states wants it more than they do and therefore they can continue their reign of terror and aggression around the region. the united states is not going to go on it. >> you would likely jumped out right away after brexit, you jumped so we need a hug for real quick. are you more tilting towards the u.k. a little bit away from europe? how do you look at that triangulation of the relationship? >> it is natural the united

states and united kingdom will have a special relationship as we have for so long. >> why not with france? >> we weren't first onto the u.k. they aren't her big rutgers. we are part of their british tradition along with countries like canada and new zealand and australia. as much as we may be aligned with continental nation, they are a part of nato and we give them security guarantees and vice versa. it natural to have a closer relationship with great britain. it was deeply, deeply regrettable the way president obama and some european leaders were trying to intimidate the british people, not just expressing their opinions that a vote to leave the e.u. would be bad not just for the e.u., but not for great britain and implied derby threads and punitive consequence as well. and when does that come in the u.k. would have to go back to

the? brussels and other capitals said that there would be serious consequences and punitive action taken against the u.k. since the campaign ended, the campaign rhetoric, whether it's over a referendum like that for two candidates running, cooler heads usually prevail. the interests of the u.k. and au to have a trading relationship, just like it is for the united states and the u.k. as well. we should be able to simply preserve the status quo so nothing changes when the u.k. and e.u. have their separation. when you started new round of negotiations with the e.u. clearly we will have the world's fifth-largest economy in the low and one of our closest nato allies. >> when you look at your party, you are part of the strategic health to run things and think

about what you need to work and as for the future. what do you think the blind spots of the republican party are right now? >> they are too long. we haven't had an agenda that focuses on being a pm concerned. that is something tapped. take for instance -- >> were you shocked how well he did? >> that was not given 2013 i was one of the late opponents in the house of representatives of the so-called gang of a pier in our voters, clearly, for a long time like most voters want less immigration. immigrants are by and large people to come to america to provide better for themselves and family. we are all in one way or another children of immigrants. our immigration policy should be focused on a single object is. what is in the best interest of the american people and that is true but he appealed to citizenship last week or with your parents came over on the mayflower. so many times in 2006, 2007 and 2013, a bill like the gang of

eight that would increase immigration at a time when people are struggling to get jobs or wages almost got through congress and i think too many of our party leaders interpreted following to signals the voters were sending to the party leaders in washington in the same way that european leaders can interpret the signals incorrectly that their voters have been defending. donald tapped into a sentiment among the american people that washington was not working for them. the economy was moving too slowly. there's a lot of policies that were linked to serve the best interest of the american people appear american people appears certain that the broad middle class, but their increasing levels of legal immigration are increasing that for more and more regulations on businesses, small businesses and so forth. >> may put you on the spot. a lot of people think there's a good chance in 2020 or 2024 that

you might have a big party at a big convention. i'm interested in one of the big issues we see on the square have been in the country right now is racial tensions. likewise matter, police killing one way or another. we've now had ambushes and as you said, assassinations of police officers. as you look forward in your own personal career, what do you have to get right to begin dealing with that racial issue, that racial divide? what is the party and what needs to move the needle on with regard to race in this country. >> the first thing we have to do is make it clear that any attack on police officers is a point and then attack on the rule of law self and we as a people, a civilian to live under the protection of police officers admire, respect, support and love police officers who go

every day and put their lives on the line. there are wives and children now and that group in dallas who are not going to have their heads in and dad come home. in some ways that is harder than what soldiers have to face. when we went overseas, my family was worried about me, but i got back in india seems to be fine. i was at fort myer, what have you. when you're a police officer come every single day is like that. you don't know what the next toppled and the next toppled and your loved ones don't know if you'll walk through the door for third place officer in a dress uniform will knock on the door. the first thing we have to do is make it clear that we support the police and we would give them the benefit of the doubt. anytime there is a use of force by police officers who include a shooting, his investigation, facts are discovered. particularly important for

political leaders that we do not jump to conclusions and blame racial tension and division until we know the facts, and so we know what actually happened. you saw today to four straight acquittal of officers in baltimore, a city torn apart with violence just last year. that has seen a 65% increase in its murder rate over the last year. 65% increase in the murder rate that is particularly heading black communities. its important political leaders show their support for law enforcement and do everything we can to let investigation proceed , support line for his number they made the right decision and if they act as an approved recently or outside the law, hold them accountable the same way we were. >> said michael steele on stage this morning where he acknowledged he himself has been stopped many times for no reason by police in maryland.

i'm interested on the other side. what do we need to do to rebuild trust within over the racial divide in the country? >> i think a lot of political leaders need to stop fanning the flames of racial division. because there is a police shooting does not mean the police are racist or that police officer did anything wrong. you cannot know that until there's an investigation that takes place it when people go on tv or on the street and called the police racist or insinuate police are racist, they excited much later when a court of inquiry or prosecuting attorney or a judge or jury finds the shooting was justified, does nothing to promote racial harmony and unity in our country. >> 2020 and 2020 for a long way off. right here in the front. we need to get you a microphone.

>> thank you. adam credo from the washington beacon. as we were speaking here, "the associated press" just broke the 18 day secret document about the airplane deal that shows restrictions will be lifted in less than 10 years, actually had been a matter of time it could take tehran to build a nuclear weapon. i was curious for reaction as well as comment on the fact that iran now has tested their fourth ballistic missiles. the administration has as well. in any administration. >> i can't comment on the report. it would not be surprising to me at all to see those restrictions in the nuclear deal after the contenders for iran violates in the meantime. we did a similar deal with north korea and they detonated in the air device 12 years later. >> the initial reports in the administration on what the deal

would do were actually missed leading. that is not what you were told. >> i'm shocked the administration might've let the american people. i think the second question was about ballistic missiles. i was talking earlier and this is by chancellor merkel and the german intelligence services were discussing apart a couple weeks ago that iran is violating the nuclear deal and associated u.n. security. and it can reach israel. fullback risk and ultimately the united states of america. >> thank you. in a serious note or want to congratulate you again for retaining their title as the fastest man in congress. >> that is a low bar to crow -- low bar to clear. >> what are the liabilities or she faces up donald trump?

>> dorchester nor should anyone trust her pick of the clinton has been in the public eye for 25 years and schuster could apply the american people. director called me last week, not with which his legal conclusion which lawyers can debate, but the lie that he put hillary clinton's various associates. she is one device. we now know as multiple device is. she did not tend to receive information classified at the time. we now know she did do so over 100 of them. some of them highly extremely classified. she said she turned overall work-related e-mails. we know that's not the case either. we found many deleted -- many work-related e-mails. she said the state department authorizes. we know that's not the case at all. she said there was no chance of breach of her server, which was laughable at the time and direct your comey cannot cooperate. even then she took her personal computing devices overseas to

the territories of hostile powers. i don't have to tell you which country. i will give you by example i do not take a single electronic device anywhere overseas. because of the sensitivity that high-ranking government officials have taken it or credit information security by foreign intelligence services. >> before we leave that question, can you give sort of an equal frame on the other side of that when many journalists like myself have gone back to look at some of mr. trump's comments, donations to philanthropy. we have a really hard time on the truth side of the equation for the validity issue. when you have the question, there's no doubt that you are right, that trust is a big issue for hillary clinton. seems to be a big issue for donald trump, too. i'm interested in how you would handicap that on both sides. >> recidivist in comics.

could we know about in arkansas, but the american people do not trust hillary clinton. i know a lot of people quibble with donald trump over his assertions in his assertions and he sailed a few checking test from fact checkers in the media. i would suggest that fact checkers are liberal editorials. they are not checking facts like i just laid out about hillary clinton, but they make arguments about matters of opinion and policy, which is fine. >> right here and we will wrap this up. >> alex of the intercepted earlier this year you give an address to the hudson institute in which he said the u.s. has been under perspiration problem. the incarceration rate of any country in the world including north korea. make why should this to our allies need a lot more people up or is there a compelling reason the u.s. needs a higher incarceration rates than the rest of the world?

>> specifically referring to admit that we have been over incarceration problem and we need to let allison abiola ellis back out on our streets. if you look at race of imprisonment, it is something like i don't have the exact numbers in my head right now, but less than half of violent crime in this country ultimately in up with someone behind bars. less than a fit of property fine end up with someone behind bars. i don't see how you can think about those numbers and think that four fifths of the victims of property crimes than half of the victims of violent crimes get no justice from our criminal justice system and think we are imprisoning too many people and we should be letting us people out. that is one reason people feel increased in the unsafe on the street because we have seen crime rise over the last two years, which i would suggest is not going to dental in the last two years to worst anti-police

propaganda has been put out by political leaders.

is this all going to work? is the party going to come together and you feel like plate tectonics are converging. >> i hope so and i think so. part of the unity, which is the word of the day is not enough being we can just be a unified party. we have to be a growing party and we have to contact others in

recent elections and let's face the facts get lost two straight presidential elections. we won the popular vote by about six. we are not a majority of america's republicans. democrats are majority there. it's not enough to unify republicans feared we have to grow our party reach have been in voting in presidential elections. what you hear from the convention this week is not something that's just going to help bring republicans together, but help bring the millions of independents and democrats who want an america safer and more prosperous. >> last time i interviewed you, you had a baby that next day. last time a week ago do not cure on train you and your wife have another child on the way. final question, have you picked out names? >> know, do you have any bright ideas? >> tom, stephen, barack. >> we announced last week that

we are expecting a christmas baby. we have a son doing business. >> ladies and gentlemen, senator tom cotten. [applause]

>> the things most important to me are economics, largely nature. obamacare and its destruction of personal liberty and some intrusion of the relationship. i'm serving as the assistant delicate with my wife because this country is in need of change in the republican party needs to change with it. >> the most important issue in this election is gun control reform. we need to reevaluate what the importance of a bid in today's society. the document may not be what it used to be when taken for granted. the children of the youth of america are and not let them be dying in schools on a daily basis. >> i'll tell you why. it's awesome to have the

convention in cleveland. this has been a year of cleveland. the cats have won the championship. i'll tell you what appear to have been national convention here in cleveland is a super topper for the city and puts it on the map. we are so happy. him and him and him as a child and the public is tired in to focus on america or americans. it is time for a real change and donald trump is the person who brings real change. >> the most important issue to me this year is the increased polarization and division in our country and i feel for a candidate we need a candidate who will bring us together and not through fear in our country.

>> cap from a panel investigating reporters tell their tales about getting government records including nsa e-mails, red cross records and superstars danny, fbi records and hillary clinton female. the event was hosted by the deadline club in new york city.

[applause] >> to locate jessica siegel, vice president on the gordon events share. welcome to everybody. we are very excited and honored to have such an illustrious panel of investigative journalists today. this is at next week at the society of professional journalists number which is the national version of the deadline club, which is the new york chapter. there's a lot going on in freedom of information, the 50th anniversary of the three him and i have noticed a lot of of him and him and asked him and him and had him in our a

nonprofit organization, which has been battling you know, which has consistently not in the public record on public purchases for that is the kind of battle going on. you may note that the obama administration of president obama has promised incredible trance parents the, in fact a record number of foia laws under his administration. they have in fact doubled this year for when he first took office. that is something our panel will be speaking about both on the national and local level in you will be hearing about especially sites with new york city and new york state governments -- government entities that do not want to give over records. you have n.y.p.d. and the department of corrections we will be hearing about. it is an honor to introduce our board member lesser who put this entire panel together. he's investigative panelist at

many awards under his belt, thomson reuters and without further ado, take it away. >> is like to thank anyone for coming in a quick logistical note, c-span is here so when we start the q&a session, please use the microphone that will go around so the cameras will pick it up. as jessica mentioned, open records are very important for journalists, but the largely underutilized tool. it is so difficult to get records that the government. it can take months or years to get records, data or documents. [inaudible] that better? no problem. as i was saying, and underutilized tool among journalists because it is so difficult to use successfully. requests languish before documents are released and when they are released, they often aren't in the format and may not be responsive. the request is sent and experienced a few years ago with the federal agency. we are going to talk about

specific stories we've all experienced in dealing with her agencies, but also more general strategies for successfully buying an open record. how to get the consent of the government can take time, but it can work in me to some amazing stories. let me introduce our panelists for right to left. and in there and come investigative reporter and also teaches here. legendary new york reporter, investigative reporter and a finalist for a pulitzer prize investigative reporting last week your congratulations. [applause] and we had jessica a train to come a reporter with the teachers project at the columbia university graduate school of journalism focused on education. jessica will be joining on a fellowship later on the summer and she's had a lot of fun the last year or so at the city

department of education, which she will talk about at length later on. justin elliott from pro-public who has done amazing work specific weight on spending issues of the red cross, which he will talk some about tonight as well. i'd like to thank the panelists again for agreeing to do this. i promise it won't hurt the election. let's jump right into it. indeed, what is the craziest response you've ever got from open records or questions from an agency? >> craziest response. i have been cursed at. i've tried agencies instead of rotting my request and treating it like a request for information, and immediately giving it to the hands of political operatives to decide whether to be politically expedient for whatever party was in power to decide whether releasing the information was beneficial. so they are not judging whether it's appropriate to release the

information and deciding on the politics of it. that has been crazy. right now we have a crazy request going on. there is a state request and i just learned recently that in certain states, if you want to file for public records, if you believe that national story, in certain states you have to be a citizen of that state. we have had to get a free land citizen to be our representative while we filed this request. so those are three crazy -- >> the residency thing is a real problem. >> that goes beyond the things you expect dean like taking forever, getting tonight on things he can't believe you are getting tonight on. getting responses back months later with things were back it that you can't believe are being

redacted. >> i'm sure you've gotten some interesting responses. >> crazy. a few years ago, i tried to get the records of a top official and they really did not want to give them to me, which i understood why. but i was asking for was embarrassing. i got a hold of it. they told me eventually they were lost, that they had moved their offices and as a result they couldn't find them anymore. and so, i'll take everything since that moment when they got lost here that start all over again. they went dry and never responded to that one. fast forward the change of administration. julian was now, bloomberg was then. my regional request with the new

administration. maybe i can get it. some of the same people were still at this agency and they very question i put together a box and they called me and said okay, we're finally sending all this stuff. i waited and waited and it didn't arrive. they were sending it from william street downtown. but while i'm sitting there, i get this phone call from somebody who says they think i have a box addressed to you. are you tom reynolds? i said yes. they said i don't know why this is coming to us. i said where are you? we are in new brunswick. i said new brunswick? they said i don't know. they dropped it off and we will send it back to you. i said no, i'll go and get it. i'm not going to take any chances. they said you don't understand. we are in new brunswick, canada.

[laughter] i never understood how that happened. it filled me when i tried to get fedex to explain how they sent this box to canada is that of cooper square. i eventualleventuall y got the story and if we have time later i'll tell you about it. >> jessica, you got interesting responses in the department and now you are in court. can you talk a little bit about that experience? >> sure. so i requested several data set in june of last year from the department of education and i kept getting serially delayed responses. i understand this to be a typical attack date in general and certainly the tactic the department of education will send you a letter of knowledge in your request. they will say you're going to get it by april 25th in

april 25th rolls around and bear lake were really busy and need more time, so made 25th. may 25th rosemount exactly 5:00 and you get another one. 5 million of them are after i had requested in june, i thought this is insane and i filed an appeal, which was denied. they were like we are really busy. i think because of my ignorance of the process, i had only been reported for not very line. i was a teacher and so i thought this just can't be normal. it is. but i didn't know that. i called freedom of the press and they said we do with this all the time. g1 is to sue for you? i said yes. now i have a lawsuit against the city. it's been really interesting and

they just keep coming back to the idea that we are really busy. but dozens of papers with the court with the requests have been delayed for so long, but it can be boiled down we don't have to time to deal with. she's been annoying us essentially what they wrote in their brief with the court that they filed. and so, it is not likely that i'll get my documents anytime soon, but my lawyers are excited we will have a judicial ruling on whether or not the serial extension letters are illegal. they contend that they are not. the city thinks they are. i don't understand the city's reasoning for that, but you never know what they'll get away with. >> lots of things. that is for sure. justin, you had a similar periods, even longer with fema. >> yeah, i will give you a more amusing when that happened a few years ago. i did a foia request for the nsa

soon after someone came out. it was her correspondent e-mails related to the nsa, related to the nsa collaboration with the media outlet and i got a call from a foia officer saying that the nsa didn't have the ability to search those e-mails. the agency is literally in charge of up data of most of the internet and plucking terrorists out of the data and they claim they don't have the ability to search e-mails. never got anything am not one. >> andy, if it is so hard, why bother? why do this? >> part of the thing we do as journalists is get information that we believe is in the public interest, that we believe is

eliminating. and every time you do get something, not every time, but most of the time when you get some rain in response, it probably does have news value to it. one of the sad truths we were talking about before the panel is that journalists file some of the least amount of foia. corporations do it far more. chances are when a journalist files, it's because they believe something is there. we tend not to go on fishing expeditions as a profession, although i've seen journalists go on fishing expeditions and get great thing. but we do it because we think we are going to be adding something of value to the public discussion, something that will be illuminating and revelatory. there are countless examples of where foia has been crucial were doing the kinds of things. >> in your career at the times

and a dateline before, how has that been for your projects open records request? >> some of the biggest projects i've worked on have hinged on foia and filing of open records request. one of the ones you had asked me about before him had to do with it in many the ticketing pattern cities across the country. we use open records request to go to the biggest cities across america that were keeping ticketing data by race of who was getting different kinds of citations. what was sounding was here we were in new york for filing the request across the country. we sometimes to be the first journalist ever to requesting an her mission. reporters in kansas city by denver, no one ever bothered to even ask what do the ticketing

patterns look like an art to be? that's an opportunity for us as ours tori goes. it saddens me because i would've thought a more new sound that they would have been like public records. let's go check this out. >> a lot of frustrating process will take months to why bother and so tom, what are the most common roadblocks you've run into in your request over the years >> asir request i'm really glad they are doing not lawsuit. that is all across new york. >> my threshold -- when i first moved in terms of trying to get information out of agent needs

is not to file a foia. the reason i do that is because exactly what andy just said. when you do filed a freedom of information request, where does it go? the lawyers have to defend their phony baloney job in one of the things they've got to do is take your request right there and often it will just sit for a long time as they evaluate it. eventually you might get something, but they are driving crazy. my working assumption is that most of the things i ask for our public record in the complete is no need. i say that as strongly as i can to every gallon public communication for an agency that i can. explain to me. if you want me to send you an e-mail that as under the freedom of them are mission request,

just so you can pamper yourself and that you didn't just give it up. i don't want to get involved with lawyers if i don't have to. i don't always win. let me be clear. i encourage people to do that because i have been in the business long enough to know that foia has become a dodge. you know, it is in effect a tool to be able to delay and sometimes completely avoid altogether providing information. my interest is to be able to get the hint. that's what i really want. i am looking for them to give me the reasoning as to why i need to go through this teacher. if they do put me through the procedure i am on their back like every single day. we will get to tactics, but i appeal almost immediately.

whatever that certain period of time, how many people have done that? a lot of people nodding their heads. the great about doing not is that it just moves it from one lawyer's desk to another in the agent e. >> and is usually from the public access officer who worked for the count full. i found that the fact you just rattled the cage that little bit can be effective. that is one tactic to talk about. >> it's really important. how many in the room have filed open records requests? if you don't call, if you don't follow up with that request, you're never going to get anything. one of the things you have to set up for yourself is how to file a request for a track my requests in things when it's time to call somebody and bother them about my information. i was once at the daily news, spent almost two your skull in

the same guy every ticket records out of the state department of health and we got to know each other pretty well. he didn't always take my call, but a new, but he knew why i was calling. ultimately after longtime makeup the request. you have to prepare yourself for that sort of effort because if you call all the time, you can kind of jump in front of the line. you become a real nuisance than they are likely to move a little bit faster than they would have otherwise. tom is right that if you can get the information without falling request, absolutely the way to go. once you are there not more attacks come it takes an awful long time to get out of it. jessica, what type text you use? that's going to cost you $10,000 to get the information, which is not uncommon. it happens quite often. what do you do?

>> said the best example that i have for this is actually part of the lawsuit that i have filed against the department of education, which is the city has a 311 call line for pretty much everything. one of the options for special needs -- parents of daschle made students can call to complain about their student's individual education plan not been followed up their school or mistreat another special needs child under idea. they take all of these notes down. they process the request with the school and try to get the situation was called. i foiled for those records and over a two-year period to use the where schools have the most complaints against them, which teachers are most problematic. a lot of the information is protect it under the federal privacy act that governs what information can be released about the event. i knew from the beginning it would be heavily redacted.

there are certain things that the name of the school in any public employee that cannot be redacted. i hadn't thought -- i got a very redacted version of these records, which ended up being 45 lines on the spreadsheet and i thought that is just not even possible that you only received 45 calls in the last two years over this hotline. that's impossible. so i filed an appeal of part of the lawsuit in denver's font to the lawsuit, dave or like we didn't give her a lot of the records because there's no easy way to read that day because the students name is just in this massive box of text, where the collar -- where the operator types and type and so in order to fully redacted, it will take 60 fold business days of four people working 40 hours a week and they were like that will come out of something like $50,000. that isn't named.

what you end up having to do with rationally with stephen and for that is you have to ask them for back to the people that are supposed to understand the law. the problem its agencies just redact whatever they feel like doing and stamp it with arafat. they are redact in far too much and it obviously does not requires 60 days of full work to erase the names. it will erase more than a half too and they will contend that this is going to cost you additional money. you just have to argue the law with the people that are supposed to know what the best. that has been the most effective thing and also you should start with the biggest request you can possibly make and then limit it afterwards because, you never know what you can get, and then you can negotiate with them after they tell you now or it is to take this on. what if i just take a year as that of two years.

and that of all these categories i just did two and that tends to move things along. >> justin, what roadblocks have you run into? cost, format, time and how do you deal with those whom they come up? >> i'll give you an example from my own at various a couple years ago. i was beginning reporting in 2014 about the american red cross response to his superstar cindy in new york. one of the first things i did as the red cross is a private charity so you cannot foyer them. one of the first things i didn't think about what the red cross might have with government c. one of them turned out was the new york attorney general office had done a somewhat halfhearted investigation of how money was

spent, money raised for sandy release a charity and they put out press releases by the dining with a number put up about data they have gotten from the charity. i did a new york open records request for materials from the ag office they had gotten from the red cross. this was still early in my reporting. a month or six weeks later i got a letter in the mail the same thing i'd never seen before, which it turns out the new york open records law has a provision exempting material that contains trade secrets. it turns out the way this works is if you asked for documents may contain trade secrets related to a third party like an outside company or nonprofit in this case, the government agency will inform the third party that you are taking these records and

give them the opportunity to object to your request on the ground that contains trade secrets. the letter i got said the red cross had done this in probably $12 an hour or something to fight the request on the ground that the materials contained trade secrets. when we got this, my editor and i thought what could the trade secret be if the red cross found some effective way to respond to disasters and keep it secret from the salvation army. it made no sense. to answer your question, one of the things we sometimes do which can be satisfying and sometimes effect it is just to write about it. sort of the most basic -- you know, at the heart of the power we have. you could write especially

take a step back and one of the most

important things. know what you cannot than what the exceptions are allowed under the law. a great resource is the price. every state has their own statute. the reporters has a great break down a state-by-state status. you have to be a citizen to request records. what can they charge you for? i spent an hour on the phone with people in south carolina a few months ago about records and trying to get from them about what they could and could not charge me for. because i read the lot was able to dramatically decrease what they were trying to make me pay. it's an organ to do your homework about the law before you follow that request. you have to treat it like a story. for a bargain that occurred. one question for andy is do you ever seek the same information from outside the agency.

>> i was just about to present what you were saying. we are actually in the foia battle right now. one thing we are doing as what i've done before which is look for president. look for where the information has been given up by an agency similar to what you are asking now. it is also a way to help reduce costs you about, you've done it before. it didn't seem to cost anything when you did it 10 years ago. it could be an entirely different context for why the information was produced. you were saying president is a good thing to try to last. you were saying about going outside the agency. one of the interesting things about the government is that it can have a paper trail that could lead to other avenues. i remember stories trying to let

that traffic accidents and fatalities. a lot of resistance at a particular state agency. the state had to file the same information with the federal government. and there you can get it for free. sometimes knowing that there is a document trail, that a state agency or local agency might be reporting up the chain or down the chain could lead you to try to figure out where in the chain he might be able to best get those records. >> especially with luskin and the game. one of the questions i often get from the foia officer is why do you want this. you don't have to tell them not. it's not their business why you want it. why do you think they want to know? they assume you are going to do what? you are going after them. it's not a good thing you ask for information. they set up all these roadblocks on cost, format, waiting to give

a stuff is their assumption we're trying to screw them in some way. that is the bottom line. i'm sure you have experienced the conversation more than a few times. >> you know, there's a great phrase from these two old masters of investigative reporting, bartlett and steele. they did all these great takeouts in "time" magazine. they have some wonderful books about changes in america. they have a document state of mine. i take that to mean exactly what andy was just describing, which was if the road is blocked in one direction, it exists someplace else. i'm a very local guy. my whole career i have been based in new york city. i did dizzy south of stat island. i just stay here. i know you work really well. in new york, we are blessed with this kind of unique agency but i

hope folks are familiar with, which is its committee on open government. it is a division of the new york state department of state and it is funded by the government, under statute. only three people if they are headed by this wonderful fellow named robert freeman. he has over the years been an enormous resource to outside itself and anybody who's tried to dig records out of the agencies to be able to guide you with what you can do. on his website, he has put together, this is the document state of mind peace. he said 25,000 advisory opinions that he has written. he's got them organized on a website by subject. so if you are doing police, you would go would look under police and he's got several hundred under the heading. most of them at this point are

digitized and you can read them from your desk. the older ones who got to call and they will send them to you. it is exactly what you are describing of who else has been down this road. i can't be the first person to want this information. so i tried to look to see who else has asked for it and shape my request that way. the other piece and then, you are the master of this. every agency under new york state law supposed to have a subject matter listed to post to be up in their website and available. most agencies fill that role. what it is is just what it sounds like. they are supposed to be accommodating us to let us know what records they have. one of the traps, one of the problems with the freedom of information laws if they do not have to create a record. if you go women ask for some thing and say i want every red nissan that was caught speeding

at 40th street and seventh avenue, they are not going to creep out for you. they say no, you are out of luck. but what they do have is access to records that you can then shape to fit what your needs are. one of the things that freeman is pretty brilliant at is been able to sort of focused people in on what is doable. in the subject matter list, it lists exactly what they are supposed to have. if you ask from that list, it says here that you do have all speeding violation within that tom wester said dean. that is what i want. i want all the speeding violations in midtown west and then you know the document and you are playing on their territory and they can't escape that. first you got to have the

subject matters list, which you're pretty good escorting people. >> every state in new york is supposed to have on the website. some of them do but it's not exact a prominent and they can take some time to locate it. sometimes they foiled those. at least then you have a playbook on what you have available. andy was alluding to this. a lot of journalists like to foia the foia. send in a foia opens record request. whether they asked for? when i was at the daily news, we used to do this to each other all the time to find out who is asking for what. it can be very useful to find out what some attorney four years ago asked for the same information. don't tell me it doesn't exist. regarded done it before.

[inaudible] [laughter] he foiled by foia. learn the hard way. >> jessica, what resources have you come across for young journalists in terms of getting started by the open records request to what you offer them a terms of where to go to look for help? >> sure, freedom of the price i will second that. it's a fantastic resource they are suing on my behalf so i can't really be any more grateful to dan dan meyer dm. they are great. i would also echo the robert freeman is really amazing and he will stay on the phone with you for an hour and tell you fully understand the extent to which you are owed this records are not that these records. he is an incredible resource and very generous with his time. he filed an advisory opinion on my behalf with the department of education for department of

education for these records prior to me going for freedom of the press and it was extremely expensive and i've been able to use the advisory opinion as i now speak to the department of education about my request and it was helpful for me as a very new journalist to have that kind of weapon in my arsenal. i would also say that if you are a student, the student -- a goodness, the student press enter i think it's what it's called. the student press law center as wonderful and they are similarly responsive, specifically for student journalists and they can really help you figure out what exactly you should do and what resources are available for you. before you foil anything in any state ,-com,-com ma i would read to reporters committee on freedom of the press to kind of get a break down of your stay. it is really kind of stunning how different states are in the way that they handle -- the way

that they handle freedom of information request. the reason i was so quick to start complaining and get up in arms about new york is because the only other state that really filed meaningful public information request prior to new york with texas. they are far more efficient than new york and the way they handled freedom of information request. there is an entire division of the attorney general's office in texas dedicated to public information requests. they call you back within a business day. if you have a complaint. texas, if you sue, it is common for judges to award you your legal fee

a as if at some point you might file a lawsuit because the e-mails you send will come up in that lawsuit. so if you go all crazy and start cursing out the public information officer, that might feel great but it's going to come back and haunt you. i didn't cursing out. i wanted to. an e-mail something like this is insane. i just kind of went, it was pretty mild all things considered but it came back.

my lawyer asked about it, that's a little embarrassing. always stay composed because those things might come back to haunt you later. >> one thing that seems have been is each new administration, whether obama or andrew cuomo or bill de blasio, comes in office and will be the most transparent administration in history and then within a year the exact opposite has happened. why is that? what happens when they take the oath of office? >> i think obama is the best example of this. widely observed at this point, obama, the obama administration which essentially over now has been out of disaster on foia. the ap does a pretty good story every year, by some measures in terms of the size of the backlog of foia at government agencies, the number of lawsuits, obama

has been worse than bush. this has gotten some recognition now. i wonder if he gets a pass on some people who would be complaining about this because he's a democrat. the most obvious explanation for this is there is no real incentive for them, lacking public pressure or pressure from our industry, there is no incentive for them to increase levels of compliance because often documents will lead to damaging stories. i think journalists and the industry should be much more aggressive in calling this out. at this point we have had a lot of people call obama out but he should estimate is that every single entity. agency heads, when they have learned navigating fiasco with fema recently was that the budget for foia offices at the

budget level at agencies is set by the agency. it's not congress. i think appropriation issues with congress come with sequestration that hurt foia offices just like all of the function of government. also a question within the agency, there are decisions being made by people around the agency about how many resources they want to put towards foia. at theme i found out recently for a piece i did that they were 16 jobs in the fema of foia offe but the last couple of years of age have been filled. there was no will to fill these jobs that theoretically there was money for. it just wasn't a priority. i think we need to be writing about this, calling out, naming and shaming, asking agency heads about this, publishing their pictures. i think we could be a lot more

aggressive than we are. i think the only way you are going to see politicians like obama making good on these lofty promises that in his case he made literally on his first full day in office, is it to a sustained public pressure. we are in a good position to exert that kind of pressure. >> one thing beyond not just for filling a promise to be transparent, some places are seeking to pass laws to remove things from the public sphere. virginia there was a reporter down there, somebody does cashman for a series of embarrassing stories about cops in virginia moving from agency to agency and it would be a problem, he would do this by getting payroll records from various police departments. how did of virginia act? to try to pass law to make police payroll files private so you could no longer see that information. in pennsylvania doesn't effort going on to try to make e-mail deleted probably after five days are gone. these other things, we have to

watch for these things and write about them when they happen. >> another thing we should be doing collectively as an an industry is assuming were. seven doesn't always work but it often works. there are barriers to it that our financial, but one of the biggest freedom of information stories last year was there was an independent journalist from chicago that sued the chicago police department to get the look on mcdonald videos which resulted in a think one of the biggest and most important stores national of the entire year. somewhat shocking to papers in chicago didn't pursue this. they had filed their own open records request but it was left is independent journalist to find a lawyer who was willing to pursue this on a pro bono basis. he did get legal fees and they sued ever able to get this figured out. it led to open up late the da was voted out of office.

it cast, it was just a massive star that i think just briefly, a colleague of mine happened to pull data on lawsuits at the federal level and we're somewhat shocked to find in terms of journalistic outlets following the filing lawsuits go ahead for like five or six and a half are from jason leopold who is this journalist who does a lot of great and aggressive foia work. most lawsuits are by advocacy organizations. media organizations really are not assuming very much. it does often works when did you. >> speaking of data, andy specializes in using david and prying data as government sources and other places. what's different about five requests for data versus a request for a report or something like that? >> at one level it's the same.

you want to make sure that everyone understands that you believe and it appears to be a public record. the biggest hurdle you want to spell out is how to exchange information. they will often throw you it's in a proprietary database, it's really complicated, we don't have the staff and it will require hundreds of thousands of dollars of experts to come in to take care of all of this. in some way she need to just walk them through to say it's really simple and here's how you can do it. sometimes what i do is i will go and check out al-qaeda cell for the agency appears to be using, and very often it's some kind of commercial off the shelf package and you will see that you are when you read the documentation look, it's an easy way to export it out into some kind of text file that is easily readable. you kind of walk them through the all of this is for a

possible. in your foil your the few extra paragraphs that will say i want this in a common file format like this this or this. if that is a difficult i would more than happy to negotiate with whomever is your technical person and just try to make that not a barrier but don't let the technology be a barrier. whether it's digitized somewhere that showed giddings on a stick or -- that you'll be getting on a stick, or an e-mail, a fundamentally is that it is a public record. >> one of the things they will do is send it to you in a pdf. i'm sure you all for my with pdf and how much fun that is to do in terms of trying to analyze data. you can't analyze data inside a pdf. there will be a major fight our agencies to give it to in an electronic format. something you can read and a spreadsheet or database or something like that.

most states do have provisions for it. they're supposed to provide it to you anyway is maintained or if it's easy for them to put in a particular format you ask for, to do so. when you get those pdfs which are very, very common, deal with it. there are ways we can convert those files and get them into david we can do with. you immediately go back to the agency and say that's not what the law says. if they don't play ball, file an appeal to even though they give you what you asked for, it's not an appropriate format. you can try to force them to give it to you. a colleague of mine got a file from a federal agency that was an image pdf, heavily redacted of data which does all kinds of hell. you need to be very aware of this stuff when you're funding request for data. it isn't just a day. you can often ask for anything electronically and their first response will be we only have hd that on paper. the next question should be was it created on a typewriter?

how did this document get created? these are the kinds of things you often have to deal with. speaking of fun agencies to deal with, you've dealt a lot with docs, the new york state department of corrections community supervision runs the state prisons. talkers do a little bit about your efforts there and the roadblocks you have had. >> a couple of them. i have been writing about prisons for the last couple of years for the times. one of my rude awakenings came when i made the mistake of reading the new york state department of corrections media directive which they have up on the website. number 417. i was delighted to read in it that said when an employee of the department of corrections has been disciplined and brought before arbitration and where the arbitration has been upheld and discipline imposed, that

arbitration record will be released. it says right there. this is great. i'm home free. this is exactly what i want. what i was trying to find out was why there were so many guards at certain maximum security facilities that seemed to be repeat offenders in terms of brutality against inmates. i knew the agency had tried to fire some of them. i do they feel that, that they've been sent back to work but arbitrators. i wanted to look at those that they succeeded in. i had a sit down with the commissioner in albany in his office and i said i would ask you for all the arbitrations at correctional facilities. great, we will give them to you. we can do that. the ones we lost we can't give them to you. so i've filed a foia and a weight. they are sort of embarrassing silence on and then they come back and it turns out that there

media directive had misstated the law. even bob freeman, the saint of open information. i called bob and said this can't be true. he said it's true. they had something in there that said they could give away a record that they can't be. the reason they can't do it is because new york state is one of a handful, not clear how many but there is maybe less than 10 states in america that do this on behalf of their police and correction officers. we have a section in our state civil rights law of all places, a section called 50 a ditch but it seems that was about it in the times and in the new state and all the union, everybody come up against this law. that part of the law says basically you can't know what the disciplinary history is of a peace officer. no matter what. you can't get that record. the reason was, and this goes

back a few years, is originally the state wanted to preclude plaintiffs lawyers in the civil cases from using that disciplinary history to beat up on the stand police officers who were being sued out of of some incident that happened. that's not fair to bring of his past history so we will make it beyond your balance. they kept wiping the law. first it was cops and then the added correction officers and firefighters. recently they added emts. they are all classified as peace officers. none of those records are allowed into the public domain. bob freeman writes an annual report ever you. he gives a report to the governor and every this is the same thing. the single most foremost need is to correct this atrocity to the fact that citizens can't know the disciplinary history of the performance of their own public servants. cops, firefighters, correction officers.

resemble luge we should do. -- presumably we should know. that hobbled my work and try to get a handle on what was going on. they threw a few more curveballs at made when i put in a freedom of information request which i tried to get without doing a freedom of information request because i said i know you keep the document, you updated all the time. i bought a list without names of what sanctions they have brought against employees. i knew i could know who they were but i thought i deserved to know what they were charged with and what happened to them. they thought me for eight months i think, refusing to give it a. i went to the correctional association of new york, a wonderful organization, it's 200 years old. it has the right under state constitution to access to our prisons and they monitor them. they had gotten some of these records a few years ago and they

should get a copy of what the hell. i went back to the department and i said you gave this to the correctional association. they said they were not journalists. i said i know they are not journalists but still it doesn't have anything to do with getting of the records. eventually what i did get and lo and behold it came in exactly the format been just described it was like 50 pages of pdfs. i said to represent us in the form and what you keep it? i can see this is a picture of some kind of excel sheet or something else they insisted to me they couldn't do that. take what you got. it out of here before we really can't give anything if i ended up tied to go to all these different formats to extract which are finally able to do to make some sense of it. they've got quite a few hurdles that prevent us from understanding what goes on in law forced the. let me quickly, the thing that justin said about litigation. when i was at the daily news we had a tiger who is now the

general counsel at first. she's getting a big award next month. her attitude was so everybody. the news wasn't quite sure what to make of her. as a result of her aggressive strategy at the news opened a family court. family court had been closed to reporters the you couldn't getting. all these cases going on and nobody come we can't talk about that because these are very sensitive issues which was true but my goodness this is like part of what's happened to new yorkers. let's put a little bit of sunlight on a. she filed a lawsuit. they settled rather political before judge because they knew that they were going to lose on it. they were reluctant to give out any of the closing numbers for the department of investigation to they said we just give advisory stuff. we don't have to give opposing the most.

she said sue. as a result of which actually ik at something about somebody you think they have been rescued, filed a freedom of information request about that person or that organization to see if there's any closing the most. enough said. >> two quick things and then open up to questions from the audience. speaking of peace officers, one of my favorite agencies to send requests out to is the nypd. if you've never filed the request and your in spite of our talk to start doing it despite all the horror stories we're telling, do not start with the nypd. do not make that the first foia request because you are not going to get what you're asking for. when they are sued and altima have to give something up come if you thought the request of next day for the same document, they would deny you your they are extremely aggressive about

not giving any information to anyone at anytime. on a positive note, especially on the data front, despite what the great analysts have said today, there has been some progress. many jurisdictions now have open data sites. new york city, new york state both have separate sites where the post data. it's necessarily the data we want but it's something, a step in the right direction. the port authority, and the airports and bridges around new york city, when i was at the bergen record in new jersey out decade ago we asked for the payroll file and they said no because they're not subject to either new york or new jersey's open law. they would not give it to us. we threatened to file suit and they caved and gave us the payroll file and we had fun with that information. fast for 10 years and now, more than that, now the poster payroll file and record on their site.

so despite the difficult that exists, and there are many, there has been some progress. let's open it up for questions from the audience. jessica has a mic. >> this is great. do you want to talk a little bit about, were you involved in the investigation trying to get the records from the governor for sandy, the contracts? was at the record? didn't the record try and -- >> i wasn't at the record within. >> could you go over this last thing that you said about the suing? you can actually foia that agency that was doing the suit. is that what you said?

>> you're talking about the daily news. there are three stages of hell and a foia request. the first is you file and you wait to see what happens. the second is when you decide you waited long enough, you appeal the constructive denial. did anybody use that phrase? if you don't attack you file constructed to know. you didn't answer me. i am appealing this. that's the second stage. you might not get what you want. the third stage is that having gone through all the steps, that's the way the law committee goes all the steps and you still don't have satisfaction you can go into your court and get article 78 years and appeal of the failure of an agency to be up to fulfill you believe is proper missions. file in new york supreme court and say i want my day in court. article 78 always gets to the top of the docket because they

have an urgency. the presumption is this has great importance. there's a whole part in both boroughs in your where judges just your article 78. then you get down to business with them. what was just described at the record i think is the more usual way it plays out. in other words, once you have the lowest get on the phone and say goodbye said the lawsuit to? and they begin to figure out some way to come to the table. i think litigation is part of the strategy and people should pursue it at every level. [inaudible] >> in new jersey with -- trying to get the record. but that's new jersey i guess. >> we are not a whole lot better here.

one of the things that's good at, jessica talked about the fact that the federal level they would about having to pay fines or texas combined sorry. new york's legislature passed that bill in the last session and together refused to sign it. the idea that will give them a little financial incentive to belly up to the bar. he wouldn't sign it. >> i would just that i think a lot of people, more people than we are aware of take action against their kind one of not being processed in a timely manner but then the response of the agency is let's just settle this. we don't need this to go to the judge. we will give you the records right. asses off by lawsuit, lo and behold they started trickling the records to me with this idea that if they just did everything i asked for a time the judge ruled on it and it would be moved. i wish people when they filed

the suit would just hold out for a little while to get that judicial ruling. so you have some judicial relief. there's like a precedent set for what you have done is illegal so that future requests are expedited and are easier for other journalists. i just can't believe that no other education journalist in the history of the department of education has never taken legal action against them for delaying their foia request or years and years. assumes the agency said opportunity in the next month, the journalist who was deposed after is given to the right now and i will drop it. that kind of makes it worse for the rest of us because there's never any ruling that says you were doing this wrong. in the event any of you do decide to sue, i would personally encourage you to stick it out and make it easier for everybody.

>> just to follow up real quick to how long this takes, lawsuits and appeals. it takes a long time. if you're crafting a letter asking for information over a timeframe, don't put them just say to the present day. starting date to present a big you will regret it is a genuine, 2015. you get the information 18 months later. is already dated. >> i requested my files in june 2015 which is after the end of the 2014-2015 school year. the majority of the records request i am now suing for i ended in like june of 2015. now i'm going to get my records and they will be a year out of date. hopefully i can still use some of them but at the end of the day that was my own mistake, and i've learned quite a lot from that. [inaudible] >> i'm just waiting on summary judgment. she was asking if i have a

hearing but i don't. i should probably note that off the top of my head but i don't know who the judges. i'm just waiting on the summary judgment. they filed the last, the final, you know, docket. in state court. everything has been filed and could take up to 60 days and i think it was just two weeks ago that it was all finished. >> thank you very much for this. this is great. could you talk about any insights on dealing with the fbi? and also isn't any easier to get historical documents then more current? like going back 30, 40 years? >> i have some experience with the fbi, both as a journalist as well as here for a long time i would have my students for the

fbi. some of the foia is that my students filed and broke stories on the included finding out and documenting how the fbi used to track the noted journalist david halberstam. how they track the nobel prize-winning novelist alexander solzhenitsyn, and other people who live in the united states. so the fbi, under, does keep records, particularly from the j. edgar hoover days when they would keep tabs on people, not because of an alleged crimes but because of their social or cultural standing. those files largely are public record, although they will be redacted and you'll be looking at the redactions of those thinking this is crazy. why is this person's name

redacted from 1939, or something like that. those kinds of things are public. i would encourage you guys, when you want, when you interested in a historical fact to look at foia for the fbi. in addition to be getting any quicker -- [inaudible] the fbi actually, the last few times that have been involved in these which is a good couple years ago to gotten faster added, which was shocking. there's all kinds of other things. i had a wonderful colleague who i worked with, she's now at "the wall street journal." we were working together and we're going through a data set that's pretty, instead of a miniature was to work with. it's a supplemental homicide data set. it's the data set of every

shooting, after the death, of every homicide, of every killing across the country. we record the data set and we get a data set you like to be meticulous. one of the things you do is go through the form. what does the form look like the cops and everyone should be filling out? the format had the thing that said isn't a police involved shooting? we queried this data set that was many years long, and said give us all the police involved shootings or whatever the phrase was for that. there was not a single one in the data set. right? interesting. so we each went our separate ways, and, her first job from where we were working at investigative reporters and editors, first job was at the "washington post" is one of the first things she did was foia for the fbi's data set, including that column of

information that had been redacted or exclude on the public version that you could download for free. she downloaded it and was able to document how washington, d.c. police were some of the most prolific at shooting, at shooting people. and that series of stories went on to win a pulitzer. it's an fbi foia story for you. and when i think you want to keep in mind if you're going after historical stuff is record retention policies. how long things are required to be kept. exposure of the local and state level, things are just going after 10 or 15 years or they been put in a warehouse somewhere. there's a fire a cup years ago in brooklyn that destroyed a whole lot of records. there was a fire down in the archives in d.c. that destroyed a bunch of military records years ago. things sometimes get destroyed on accident or on purpose. >> just briefly adding to that, there's been sort of a lot of ferment lately on the question

of retention of e-mails. i've been referring to the hillary clinton e-mail server think although i do think that hillary e-mail server although it's been framed mostly as a story about classified information and whether it was handled properly, i think it is a foia story. the entire keeping of a private e-mail server is most offensive to me as a reporter because it has been documented, there were requests that they just did not comply with because it was the e-mail server. there's also the cuomo administration here, e-mails don't everything is build using personal e-mail accounts. over in new jersey the famous bridge gate e-mail traffic problems. and interesting back story. that was sent from yahoo! account to a gmail account. ..

go back to the new york said they wouldn't do for trade secrets. did you guys ever go through a legal motion to file and what would you say? >> he wasn't actually the ag follow what did the ag was following the law that turns out to third party is red cross gets notified to object which the red cross did. and then there is a whole process. and did my best to satellite it

was a process where i was writing like the ag foia office that was adjudicating men's. but actually ended up happening was many months later the red cross ended up withdrawing their objection. i don't know why, but probably because it's a total pr disaster. i ultimately did get some records in the records turn out to not even be that interesting of which made it even crazier they had to hire it done. there was no giant smoking gun or anything. >> did gibson try to talk to you? >> no, they hired to argue on their behalf that these records were trade secrets and therefore i should not get done.

it wasn't actually in a corner, the air with letters written by the lawyers to the ag's office explaining why i shouldn't see this status. but i ultimately got it because they unilaterally withdrew their objection many later. >> other questions? these raise your hands. >> a couple of questions. jessica, you said don't put the date on, don't ask the record here but if the alternative. >> you just a present day so they have to give you everything up to the point to which they return the documents to you and that is far better. it also might occur once you get it done faster. the longer you wait, the more documents i have to give to you.

>> about appealing if you don't get a response with the federal foia, how long should you wait before you appeal if you don't get a response? >> i happen to be talking to somebody about this question. what the statute says is they have 20 business days to respond, but that essentially never happens. sometimes you will get acknowledgment of receipt, but you very rarely get documents within 20 days. it turns out on the federal level, some agencies will respond to an appeal of what tom was noted called constructive denial and them not responding in a 20 days. they will not respond to section appeal in the various agency to agency. you have to do a little bit of research to figure that out or call one of these first amendment groups. but on the federal level it

areas whether or not you can do that. >> i have one other thing here from other tactics we've been talking a lot about people and institutions don't have access to the lawyer one of the things that you can do even before filing the request is just to call the foia office and create some relationship or non-adversarial relationship at first with the foia officer. the foia officers sometimes the problem, but often it is not the problem. you should keep in mind there is a human being who is processing your request and they have a lot of useful information. i started before filing, calling them talking about what i'm thinking about asking for how to craft the request.

i've had some luck with that. they are not always responsive, but they often are appreciative you talk to them like a human being, even though in a few months you might be angry and frustrated. i would recommend not. >> i'm sorry i'm delaying the next question. that is a really fantastic idea and i wish i had learned about earlier and my fledgling career as a journalist. in the new york city department of education, such a tactic is impossible because if you are a member of the media, they will not allow you to speak to the foia officer. joseph baron allen who was an officer at the department of education could be a soft puppet for all i know. i've never spoken to him. i've never seen an good i started documenting all the time i called him directly and by the time i filed, i have to directly contacted more than 35 times. he never returned my call and all the e-mails he just bored forward to the press office in

the press office reached back to me. but the press office doesn't understand foil doesn't understand boyle doesn't understand foil. there was this very strange triangle of communication. under new york law, there is no provision that requires you be able to speak to the foil officer. that is frankly the one of the reasons i ended up suing because there is no relief and you can't get a good nation for wife mindy laid because you can't tie to the person responsible for delaying foil. the city departments are incredibly multilayered in that way and it makes things very inefficient. >> an earlier study mall sits a lot, but if you're heading in that direction, you want to actually stop calling them and doing everything in the e-mail so you can get responses in writing that they seem ridiculous to you. you want them in writing for what you might be doing later

on. >> i have a question i'm thinking of nonprofits, federal contractors would not be subject to the government agency. i'm interested in hearing from you guys how you've been able to use foia to your managed to be able to get information about these other peripheral figures interacting with government, that aren't necessarily the government agencies themselves. if you don't mind talking about the other touch points with the red cross >> briefly when i was starting the report in a couple years ago, this is generally a good thing to do when you start the project and you want to get it out the door first and know

enough what you want ask for. red cross is a nonprofit, private, you can't foia them. you want to ask a simple question, where does this entity and iraq with the federal or state government. i did open records request to the schema new york ag office and then the emergency management office in all the states where sandy had happened. my female request, i still haven't gotten anything back yet, which is another story. i did get stuff back from new jersey relatively quickly and from new york later. i did get stuff back. i was asking for correspondent between, and again, it depends on the agency how you want to craft this amount that corresponds between anyone with the e-mail address and then a

list of officials who you know are involved in their response. there's a lot of other examples of people, also if you're looking under reporting on a privately held company, a lot of work on the industries, for example, which is privately held house band through foia work about its interactions with various government agencies like the epa. this is a good tactic. >> i think that most of the good stuff might be thrown away, wouldn't it? how do we assume a seemingly to get these right or thing you mentioned a couple of fighters they are. are they suspicious? not everybody who is like

richard nixon who wanted to keep everything and keep the tapes and so forth. if jack kennedy was in the same situation he would have had a player on the wall and that would've been at. >> i don't know about that. give me an opportunity to talk about my absolute raver at freedom of information request. just to put in perspective as to how we got here and how this law has kind of emerged over the years, 50 years in 1966, but it wasn't much of a law when it got past because every agency had the right to say they'll turn you down. a couple of things happened that completely changed the public tender about this. this is my favorite freedom of information requests made by a group of people in the town of media, pennsylvania.

they knew these were antiwar act to this news that the fbi was keeping files on them and was disrupting their organizations and doing things they shouldn't be doing. they knew they could not get it under any open records request, so they decided to open the records themselves. you can read the story and a wonderful book that came out a couple years ago called the burglary. they broke into the fbi office. they learn how to pick the lock and they went in and took out all the records they could find and brought them out and send them to every congressman on the committee that would oversee the fbi, proving exactly their point. one of the journalists about what they found out was a guy named carl stern, whose name is not known anymore. i tell my students about it because he is one of these heroes and a small way they did this marvelous thing. he had a record state of mind and he looked in the corner of

one of these fbi memos added the fbi office and had this name on there called co-intel pro. he looked at it and said it sounds like that sounds like counterintelligence program. he was enough of a big player he actually went ahead of hoover was dead at that time. he had lunch with patrick gray and said he turned gray. we can't talk about that. it was a bad thing. so he filed a lawsuit and he found out about this astonishing program, and pushes this is news, i would submit to you it's worth taking a look at. that led to the church committee hearings. that led to opening up records to the fbi in watergate. the counterintelligence program was running to disrupt black

organizations. they were sending out poison pen letters. the martin luther king movie a couple years ago, the scene where they leaked the tape of him cavorting in a room with a woman. that was a maneuver the fbi pulled. that is what led to basically i've been anti-on this last bit made in 74 new york passes its first open records law around the time when they were outraged by this. i'm not recommending that we go back and try to pick the locks and the fbi office and get frustrated with the freedom of information requests. it's important to know how we got here in the fact that it was public outrage that allowed us to get these laws in the first place. the more we get the fires go read, the better it's going to be for all of us.

>> i wanted to ask a question about information under the n.y.p.d. i covered the night racing for blogs in the weekly papers. i don't have time to file one of these freedom of information act. this particular case concerned a 23-year-old kid who got himself killed right outside a housing project. you know, the deputy or when he was talking to community council didn't even give the name of the kid. couldn't identify him. didn't even know the name of the perp. so i go to the d.c. pei and get the name. the kids told me to get the stuff out of there. i couldn't get anything out of them, but i spoke to lieutenant in charge of special operations and he said he did not want to speak ill of the doubt when dead when i asked him if the kid that got killed in the perp were involved in gang activities. very invasive.