professor carol anderson discusses her book "white rage, white rage, the unspoken truth of our racial divide". ms. anderson suggest in her book that opposition to the advancement of the blacks still exist today. go to book tv.org for for the complete we can schedule. >> coming up on book tv, interviews with authors of recent nonfiction, next on in-depth, historian will haygood, author of "showdown". natalia holt on the role of women in the development of rocket technology. later, heather mcdonald discusses her new book, "the war on cops". you are watching watching book tv on c-span2. >> next on c-span two, our in-depth interview with author will haygood, the author of "showdown". and the butler, the witness to

history. this is a previously recorded program so we will not be taking phone calls.tream amer >> host: author will go haygood, this is a quote from you. >> i write about black men who heroically manifested themselves into mainstream america. i think my writing has been a relentless relentless pursuit to explain all of them. what is that mean? >> guest: well, i think that it is just been exciting to find these figures, like adam claim powell junior, sammy davis junior, sugar ray robinson, thurgood marshall, who are not born into mainstream society, who by their enormous talent an enormous gift they put

themselves into the fabric of this country by entertainment, politics, sports, or an thurgood marshall's case, the law. law. in the case of the white house h of butler, extraordinarily patriotic service to his country these figures, when i look backn over the people have written about, they spend these amazing tales about society, culture, race, and i do not always know if they knew it when they were doing it, but heroism as well. you have the new york congressman who passed legislation in type poverty legislation in the case of the new york congressman powell.

adam clayton powell junior, you have sammy davis junior who integrated nightclubs in the 1940s, all across this country, he was one of a wave of entertainers who did that. louis armstrong, lena horne, and the person i chose to about as i mentioned, sammy davis junior and sugar ray robinson who fought the mob in new york who controlled the fight game. he wanted to give fighters some independence, himself especially. and he became a six-time world champion while he was carving those rights for fighters in thurgood marshall, subject of my latest book "showdown". of course many epic cases that he has fought before the united states supreme court is the

biggest victory, the 1954 in the segregation case, brown b board of education. but when you look at all of these men i think that you look at the story of 20th century america and how it matured and how it was forced to mature because of these important figures. >> host: i want to show some video someone you mentioned and heavy explain what we are seen. >> i want to retire, i mean you have been here so long, your you serve so many people all over the world, you supervised and served everybody's happy, so.

[inaudible] so the person when i retire he invited me and my wife to the state dinner and it didn't bother me because i was so used to serving in my wife is not used to a lot i was on the table and i told him be careful, make sure that you keep an eye on,an don't let her drink. >> who was that? >> guest: that was eugene allen: white house butler, a great man who i wrote a story about him in 2008 that appeared on the cover of the washington post, really one of the most unique figuresre in my life as a writer who i

have met, i met him and his wife in 2008, before the election it was amazing how i met him. i was a national writer with the washington post and i was on a campaign trail within senator obama i was in north carolina there was a rally. after the rally i walked outside and there were three young ladies and they were crying and i told them who i was, will haygood, washington post and it was anything i could do. they were crying because their fathers had kicked them out of their homes because they supported the african-american candidate on stage. the three young ladies were college students and they were white. it was a powerful moment because i said wow, even though hillary

clinton was still in the race in 2008, at that time obama had started this epic movement and some of it was manifested in the tears of those three young girls who were crying and in the middle of the night in my hotele room, i said who's going to win he's going to win, he is is going to climb that big, hard mountain and he is going to take this country across that hard mountain where race in your imagination intersects. i ran back to the newsroom until my editor i said hey, this guy, the senator from illinois, senator obama's going to win. he win. he is going to break history. and my editor, he thought that i

was just tired and exhausted. i said no steve, please listen to me, he's going to win. and because he's going to win, i want to go where i have to go in the country and find one african-american who worked in the service job before the 1964 civil rights bill was passed. this person, this so this african-american who i kind of figured was out there someplace when i worked in the white housb before legal integration, it would mean so much to for her to see an african-american who i predicted would take the white house, looking back, does almost sound like a bit of a fable. because steve had to have faithe in me that i would find such a person and i just started looking. i was looking for somebody who

did the laundry at the white house, somebody who was a person who worked in the rose garden at the white house, or the person who shined shoes, or a maid, or in this last just dropped off my lips, or, a butler. i don't know why, i didn't know butlers in life and it just rode out. so i started making some phone calls. it was funny, the first firstca people i called of course was the white house and of course they said we do not divulge any personal information about whodu has or who has not worked here. i said oh my goodness, did abe lincoln never work there? in that made me keep looking on 20 phone calls turn into 30 and

then some recalls out of the clear blue from tampa, florida as it were and said that there is a gentleman by the name ofene eugene allen who she knew had worked at the white house for s two presidents. she said that she heard i was looking because her daughter i went to a party in georgetown. this this is sometimes how these things work for a journalist. huge have to just go knock on doors, let people know that you're looking for somebody. and sometimes things will come to you and so she tell me there is a gentleman by the name of eugene allen and that she thought he worked for two presidents and that i should try to find him. a very common name so 40 calls, the 57th call, call, a man was on the other end of the phone and i said my name is will haygood, journalists working on a story, we are now five days

from the 2008 election, the african-american senator who could three girls were crying forgot his party's nomination. there is one epic step to take in so i told mr. allen that i wanted to come over and talk to him about his life because i heard that he worked for the two presidents and he said he got that wrong, i work for a president, harry truman to ronald reagan. that's a.. of course, i went over and spent amazing time with him and his wife and wrote the story aboutw this man who worked in the white house and saw history move in front of his eyes. >> host: this was a little bit of a reverse because he wrote the article and then the movie came out and then the book came

out. >> guest: yes. >> host: how did that work? >> guest: that's a great question. the story was written and then a movie producer he produced the spiderman movie, he reach me by phone and said that the story made her cry and that she wanted to buy the rights to make a-- r. sovie. so it's best not to hop up and down when someone from hollywood calls for the simple fact that who knows of something will ever get made. so she was insistent that she came to washington d.c. to visit me with pam williams, her assistant at the time.

now pan williams has her own her company.o were she was tell me about the movie directors who are interested inn the story about this man who had worked at the white house andit saw a lot of change in the country and then -- someone dies and i hear nothing. and tom williams and then johnson was a cofounder -- they came together and they bring in lee daniel, the director. they start raising money and all of a sudden pam williams calls me and says, we found the actor who is going to play the butler. and i'm at home sitting on my

sofa eating a tina butter and jelly sandwich, minding my own business and i said who? was i that going to be and she says forest whitaker. and i say come on, really? take really. >> and she says really forest whitaker. she calls me a day later she says guess what we found the butler's wife and i said who's that going to be? and she says are you sittingo down? and i said no upstanding up should i sit down and she said sit down. oprah winfrey and i said oh,ry. pam. i know you're pulling my leg now, open oprah winfrey hasn't acted in like 17 or so years and she's going to play the butler's wife and she said yes, oprah loves the story that much. so the other cast members started falling into place i

went down to new orleans where we are filming. this is going to get back to your question about the book, so, i'm standing on the movie set one day and all these actors are walking around in between scenes and there's jane fonda, there's terrenceeres howard, cuba gooding churn or-- junior, all of these great actors and i just said nobody really i just said it's like my goodness somebody should write a book about this to capture this moment of all of this talent all in this movie set making this movie about a butler and his wife. and terrence howard happen to have been walking by and herd heard me and he said you're the writer, you ought to write the book. and that really is how the butler book was born.

the idea, and terrence howard, the actor put that idea inside me. when i got back home to washington d.c., i was able to get in touch with davis and she started written the book. >> host: so went from article, movie, book, how true with what you learn from eugene and mrs. allen was the movie? >> guest: well i learned a lot about the moviemaking business being on the set and be an associate producer of the movie, that was fun. it was a great screenwriter, danny strong who wrote a beautiful script. daniels had told me in a meeting, he said what i wanted to do with your story is open it

up. i really want to cover the whole part of the civil rights movement, which had really never been done on the big screen in this country. hollywood has sort of been very reticent to tell epic stories of this nature, so lee daniels, the director wanted to do that. he had his family, and so the story was going to be anchored to the family and in all of these historic ups and downs of the civil rights movement, now there were some changes from the actual story to movie. but the theme of the whole movie i feel i stay true to the story, there was one big difference. charles, the son of the butler, he did go to vietnam, but he

survived and in the movie he died.inth in real life there is only one son and in the movie there were two. >> host: did eugene allen share with you personal stories about each of the presidency worked>>s with? >> guest: yes. he was a bit how can i put it, shy in certain cases, but yes ht did.he did he of course on his life being played out through the different bills and the legislation that was being passed. it meant something to him when eisenhower passed the civil rights bill. it meant meant something to him when president kennedy went on tv and talked about the historic clashes and

old ms. and james meredith was trying to integrate the schools. it meant something to him when doctor king visited the white house. it meant something to him when news floated to the white houseo that there had been a big clash in little rock over school integration measure. so all of these presidents did something at one time that stood out to him. he said something that was very touching about president kennedy. he was overseas with i think switzerland and this would'verl been maybe 1962 and mr. allen had about six hours off that day and he wanted to go into this little town and get a gift for his wife.

he had a hundred dollar bill or a large bill in their currency. and they told him that they do not have change and that she wanted to go across the street and she was the only person in the store, she wanted him to watch the store for him. he told me, he said, 1962 in georgetown, they must likely would not have asked me to watch their store while they went down the street. he said, that type of dignity bestowed upon him he told me, almost brought tears to his eyes. of course he said if anybody would've come in and tried to harm her store in any way he would've fought them to the death.

that is just a lovely little moments about history, his mindset, what he took from his travels around the world with each president. that really stands out.>> gue >> host: he seemed to, according to your book have a somewhat special relationship with dwight eisenhower and with reagan. >> guest: yes, he did. i think with eisenhower connection mr. allen son, charles was going to school in 1954 in the epic brown versus board of education decision came down from the supreme court desegregating the american public school system. so you have a father who is a butler walking into the white

house looking at this president knowing that socially, the nation now is about to shift. of course that big clash of three years and that came about in little rock arkansas at central high in the fall of 195o when nine black children walked into the school and they were pelted with mom's, appetites which was a horrific day for the schoolchildren. mr. allen to see that and ofso course he had to wonder what something like this happened to my son? and what are you going to do mre would not have dared ask president eisenhower that but that had to be on his mind. will my child be hurt, this is a

unanimous decision by the u.s. supreme court, the buck stops with you mr. president and i am sure that mr. allen was looking extra sensory way for the white house for his country to put the weight behind the supreme court decision. and president eisenhower did. he said the troops into little rock to protect the children. so if you have been apparent up close to the man who did that, it must've been a very magical moment for him and president eisenhower painted a portrait shortly after that and gave it to mr. allen as a gift.

he also, when president eisenhower was out of the white house he would invite mr. allen to go golfing with him. not as his butler, but as an equal, man-to-man. would you like to place a call. that must've been a beautiful thing for him. spee1 did he live him. >> host: did he live to see president obama and are greeted? >> guest: yes. after the story came out mr. allen the transition team of the president-elect and bless their hearts for this, they saw the story and they sent a vip invitation to mr. allen and to his son to go to the swearing t in. little old me got an invite to

who knows why, but anyway we all went on that very cold morning. mr. allen, son charles and me it was very cold and you take the subway so far but then you had to walk. and we were walking and mr. allen was breathing very heavily. he was elderly and frail, i felt bad and i said mre should stop and turn around because we have about 100 more yards to go, i, i can tell that you are in pain, he had arthritis very bad and i knew he was sad because his wife had died the day before the election and there was a lot of heavy pain inside of him, aside from his ailment. but he looked at me when i said that he said, you hold my right arm, and he looked to his son and said charles you

hold my left arm and he said just don't let me drop as i'm dropturning around. and that it hit me, why i had wanted to do such a story in the first place. a man who had seen what he had seen, who had been born and raised in the south, and now this moment and so we were shown are vip seats and that living presidents who he had served under all walked out who are there and he was talking about them as if they were his friends there is president carter over there, okay he's looking okay. there's president bush, and things like that.

and then he said to me said the nation's first african-american president takes the oval office, mr. allen, the butler who started in the basement of thehe white house as a pantry man, he looked at me and he said, when i was in the white house, you cannot even dream that you could dream of a moment like this. he's the word dream twice. it was very, very touching. he has seen so much in his life and now he was living to see with his own eyes and african-american take the highest oath to the highest office in the great united states of america. wr >> host: from your book the butler, looking back over my own writing it seems to that eugene

nalen was a kind of of capstone to all of those fascinating figures i had interviewed in years past who had a link to turmoil inside the white house. >> guest: yes. i mean i can just look at the life of thurgood marshall, who is this great, legendary naacp attorney who dreamed of the naacp legal defense on a separate arm from the naacp legal cases, mostly throughout the american but also on the east and west coast and midwest. on the day that president lyndoe johnson nominated thurgood marshall to the supreme court in 1967 there are three butlers in the white house. one of those butlers was eugene allen. the law had been used to stop

mr. allen from doing things in the 50s when he worked in thee white house he could go back to his native virginia to not be allowed to try on the sutra had an immense clothing store because of the color of his skin. thurgood marshall was using the law to elevate the like of mr. allen. so that day in 1967 there is history, there is the majesty of hope right there the white house. mr. allen serving thurgood marshall. i think there's something very pregnant about, in fact all of these men who i've written about, congressman powell, a warrior from the arena, tommy

davis junior, warren the term of entertainment, and sugar ray leonard, a warrior in boxing, and thurgood marshall, warriorwa long. and then you have a genuine patriot, mr. allen who serve people and he was unknown, had no fee, his only fame was that he worked under the american flag at 1600 pennsylvania avenue , every day. even when he couldn't exercise rights as a total citizen.

lo he never missed a day of work. he loved the presidents. i asked him during my time spent with him if he was a democrat or republican and he said, you can just put down that i'm an american, that's good enough. but that in your story. it really was lovely. >> host: june 13, 1967, here's e video. >> historians will know this are at the white house in a rose garden ceremony at 58 great-grandson of a slave is nominated by president johnson to be a supreme court justice.lh his solicitor general, thurgood marshall, the best-known negro lawyer of the century. the president also causes nominee best qualified. >> i have just talked to the chief justice informed him that

i should sent to the senate this afternoon the nomination of mr. thurgood marshall assistant general to the associate adjuster supreme court they made vacant by the resignation of justice tom c clark of texas. >> that the highest court in the land with the stepping down of justice clark, thurgood marshall, the first of his race so honored. >> host: why did he pick thurgood marshall? >> guest: i think president johnson has great sense of justice for the country and he sees a moment in history, think he had done a lot of work to get to 1964 civil rights bill passed

and then came the 1965 votingme rights act. i think president johnson said if i can find a brilliant african-american jury to integrate the united states supreme court, then that wouldn be the final nail in the coffin of white supremacy. ever since george washington had started nominated supreme court justices they had all been white men. for many people it was unthinkable that one of the nine would be african-american and marshall had fought in 129 cases before the u.s. supreme court.

most lawyers never get one victory in front of the supreme court. so his place has already been made in history. he had been a federal appeals court judge in a general and lyndon johnson, i think if i can make this happen you'll be a dazzling moment in the nation of history, and it will be something that is both right and righteous and he started lifting the gears before that moment and made it happen. other enough, there is no vacancy when lyndon johnsonn started thinking of it and he had to convince associatedan justice tom clark to step down. it was very crude how he did that and i explained that in thr book.y i'll tell you quickly if you

like, lyndon johnson was a master of the senate of course as he was called by the great writer robert euro. and so he called tom clark who johnson had known because they were friends in texas, they're both from texas and had known each other lyndon johnson isac thinking thurgood marshall, the supreme court no vacancy, what can i do and he says, tom i want to appoint your son, ramsey attorney general.you're but i can't do it because you're on the supreme court and a lot of people would think it a conflict of interest in my goodness he is your only son. an i know that dynamics of father-son, i know how much you love that boy and i know know

your wife and i know it would be great for ramsey to have this great position. they just want you to know i can't do it. my hands are tied. it's a shame. and tom clark says, tom clark says, to president johnson, all my goodness, is there anything i can do? president johnson says, while he he is, i don't know, but i will tell you this, if you are not on the court then that would make my worry go away. this conflict of interest thing goes right out the window. but i'm not telling you what to do tom, that's your only boy, that's your only son, know you love him. and so tom clark went home and surprised his family said, everybody, i'm stepping stepping down from the court and all of a sudden there is a vacancy andfre lyndon johnson, he did not even tell other senators, he wanteded it to be a surprise, unlike in

today's environment you know if it's leaked out, no it didn't happen with thurgood marshall, it really was a stealth a stealth appointment, very quiet, very surreptitious, and he just moments before he had walked ou, into the rose garden he had called some senators and said i'm the president i'm appointing thurgood marshall, right now. click and he and he would hang up the phone, no time for rebuttal. all of mr. president, wait a minute. no. he wasn't going to hear it. so that's how it happened. spee1 from your book, showdown no showdown no justice had come to the high court with the background thurgood marshall progress, he is an evangelist on behalf of the law. >> host: he was. >> guest: he was, he looked across this country and started in the mid- 30s and he figured

that in order to bring equality for us ditch of equality until long going to have to start following lawsuits and suing jurisdictions. i'm i'm going to have to go to texas and file a lawsuit for voter rights and that's what he did in his famous epic case which meant that now blacks could vote in an all-white democratic primary. before they could it, thurgood marshall change that. he achieved a great victory which translated to shelby b kramer in that case meant that people could no longer sell their house if indeed said you cannot sell this is the one whoo is black or jewish. that was thurgood marshall's imprint. brown, b board of education, he

integrated the university of texas law school, a lovely story thurgood marshall's mother who is a schoolteacher wanted him to go to the university of maryland and marshall, from baltimore his mother just screamed at him, my, my son is smart enough to become the first black to be admitted to the university, marshall knew they would not accept him because he was a black because he went to law school in washington, graduated number one in his class and then marshall went and found a gentleman i the gentleman of donald murray. he said mr. murray, i want you na to apply to the university ofla

maryland school of law. mr. mr. bruce said, well mr. marshall, why in the worldd would i do that. they're not going to accept a black applicant and thurgood marshall said, i know it. do it and they will turn you down and i will sue them. and that is how i will get you inches just like that it happened. thurgood marshall, through the university of maryland school of law got admitted and thurgood marshall escorted him to class to the first day. dared anybody to to mess with him. thurgood marshall was a pretty good tall, hefty guy and that is really that's talk of the talk of walking the walk at the same time. >> host: the book is called showed up for reason.. here's another quote. referring to judiciary committee chair james eastland who is a democrat from mississippi.

mississippi is left him because he was doing exactly what they sent him to the u.s. senate to do. to maintain those caught in prices and keep the negro down. >> guest: yes. i went to mississippi to do research on james eastlandd legacy and look through his papers and found a lot a very harsh statements he had made about blacks in world war ii he called them cowards.

he -- marshall really hadl beca upended the ways of southern senators who were on the committee who are going to be judging him, senator mckellen of arkansas, senator from south carolina, sam urban of north carolina and james eastland mississippi. these were the men who had signed the southern manifesto which the manifesto would keep the democratic party white. these were southern democrats. an so eastland was very perturbed that president johnson given the warning about this nomination because eastland now had a

strategy g very quickly to afford to stop marshall's nomination. so he would tell the white house about the hearings that would be held but the hearing -- some of the questions from eastland evoked some of the questions of blacks to vote like how many jellybeans are in the jar. how many soap bubbles are in that little bowl of water over o there. strange, unnerving questions like that. the white house new that it had

a battle on its hand, specially because thurgood marshall was nominated at the time of greatrs unrest in the country. right baltimore in cincinnati, and various towns and cities as of the southern senators were saying that thurgood marshalle was soft on crime and the last day of this hearing there is an epic riot in detroit and it rea really set shivers through the white house because here was this black man who they're trying to nominate for the supreme court and they weree toe somehow time thurgood marshall to the unrest in detroit.

it was really tense moments for the white house. in trying and in writing the book, one thing that i really wanted to do was give a full picture of the southern senators i did not want to betray them house cardboard, racist figures. although they certainly upheld horrible views about race. sam of north carolina, he traveled a lot and you go to vintage bookstores all around the country and he was -- he

collected books. his wife with him coming he was seo not a good, good, you have 20 more hardback books under his arm. and he came to own 30,000 books. somebody had written a line, not somebody, it was me i wrote this line in the book and it says, and none of the books that he collected, books about law, books about politics and history could sam irving find any justification or equality for the black man and john mcclellan, the senator from arkansas, i went out to a small college in arkansas he were and

i looked at them. on the last in this visit i came across a letter from a lady named barbara ross. i'm reading the letter and it stops me in my tracks. this was a letter sent to the senators office and she said and i quote from the letter. she said chances are that the nomination of thurgood marshall would be turned down. but i beg you senator to open up your heart and let the prejudice go.

and give thurgood marshall a fair vote. i wish to tell you that if he doesn't make it onto the supreme court, there will be other african-american nominees and you will not be able to stop them all. i also would like to tell you senator that one of these days, the president of the united states will be a negro. i couldn't move.qu i read that letter and i could not move. literally i just sat there at that desk and this research library.he i remember it was a friday night and i was getting ready to close and i saw that letter and i knew that letter was going to play a part in my book.

it was as if she predicted president obama who is barbara ross. the letter it said do not answed from the senators office had no intention to even send this woman, whoever she might be even a form letter. she did not deserve even from their way of thinking, even a form letter. so, i couldn't shake it and i was telling some people about it and i told my sister about this letter and she said, oh my goodness, you have to find a member of the family when the book comes out to tell them about this letter that is in

your book. and i told my sister i said yes, that is a good idea and so i t thought deeper about it and the letter had an address. 2103 delaware street, arkansas. so i called the texarkana city clerk and i said hello, my name is will hagood come i spent 55 years writing this book about thurgood marshall rattled to be confirmed on to the supreme court. in the book i quote a letter from a one-time resident of texarkana by the name of barbara ross. my book will be be out very shortly i told her, this was like six months ago and i said, is there any way i can find in the air, and a relative that msn

texarkana. and the city clerk says the name doesn't ring a bell but let me ask around and i'll get back to you.ro so in about five or six days she called back, left a voice message on miley online phone and and said, mr. hagood, you should call this number. of course when somebody says that to a journalist you reallya get, more than a little little excited. so i'd i'll the number of this voice answered and said hello. i said hi, i'm will hagood come i've just written about called showdown about thurgood marshall's 1967 confirmation hearing and i quote a letter byo a lady named barbara ross.xa somebody at the texarkana city clerk's office said to call this number because i'm trying to find any family members of mrs. ross so i can tell them

that this letter is in the book. and she said, my name is barbar. ross. and i'm sort of taken back and i said oh really, where you named after her something? and she said, i was 19 years old, i was home from college that some and ice in a bid on the radio that the senators were giving mr. marshall a hard time. i told my mama my daddy that i wanted to write a letter to senator mcclellan. my daddy said, don't do that. it might get the family in trouble.y but the next day when my daddy went off to work, my mama walked over to me and said, go write your letter.

and i wrote that letter and it was mind-boggling to me to be talking to the writer of this letter and as i said, the address address because i was now holding the letter my hand, the address was on the letter, 2103 delaware street and i wanted to test her. i said mrs. ross, cap do youar recall where you are living it that summer of 1967? when those hearings were taking place. she said will of course, i was living with mom and daddy at 2103 delaware street.wi then i said oh my goodness, and i said mrs. ross, first let me apologize that you did not get a response from your senator. obviously your parents pay taxes and you deserved a response, even a form letter and i know

you do not get it because this letter says that do not answer." well i said mrs. ross, history has a way of sometimes working out rather beautifully. not only is there an african-american in the white house as you know, but your letter is going to be in my book and i will send you a copy of the letter in the book as soon as it is published. so i'm very happy to say that mrs. barbara ross of texarkana who predicted president obama'so election in the midst of the thurgood marshall battle, now has a copy of showdown in her home. >> host: issue white or black? >> guest: she is black. >> host: and her dad was scared that she would get in trouble? >> guest: yes. before we we got

off the phone we talked forre wo about 45 minutes and she said now tell me what was it really like working with oprah winfrey on that movie? >> host: what was it like working with oprah winfrey? >> guest: i don't want to sound jaded, but it was quite special. i mean, i have never met her i later found out that when the story came out susan chicago in her office and somebody handed her the story i had written. she read it she said goodness gracious, if there's ever a movie made of the story i surees

want to be a part of it. she said that in 2008. we do not start filming until 2012. so something about the story touched her. i remember the first time i met her, lee daniels the director, we are at a old bus station in new orleans filming the scene when the sun was ready to go off to college. the butler's son played by david. [inaudible] he was signed to play sugar ray robinson and my thunder book. anyway, daniel escorted me across the way to meete way to

ms. winfrey and she was very busy. she was getting ready to filme the first scene in lisette, oprah, i want to introduce you to will hagood and he looked at me and she said, hello well. just like that. very quiet hello will. and that was it. and i walked back across the floor. the next day we are in this area where lunch is being served and i am in line getting my meals, it is lunch time and i hear this this voice and it says it will, hey will. and then subconsciously i say goodness gracious, that sounds like opera winfrey. i hope she is that calling me. what does

she want me? you want me? why is oprah winfrey calling me? and she says it again, only this time louder. i turned around and she says, come over here. i go over to her table and it is just me and her having lunch on this movie set. she wanted to know all about the butler, how i found the butler, she wanted to know about the butler's life and she told me why the story meant so much to her, which i think iw nice to mention. hollywood movies about the civil rights movement, course they have been very few and far between so in the history of hollywood there are slave movies and then movies, modern movies. it is almost as if the 40s and 50s black cultures, thirties,

40s and 50s in black culture has culture has been absent, they can from the screen. there were a lot of people in the 50s who made the groundwork for the civil rights movement, mr. mrs. allen used to send money to the selma marchers in the late 50s when rosa parks was refusing to give up her seat on the bus. so these were like in the quiet warriors putting $5 in the mail and sending it to doctor king's church or to some other black church that have been burned in florida. mates and butlers did this. they went into their wallets or they sent the money down south. . . mother, both born in selma, alaba"he haf columbu

>> she said it is so important to honor the mades and butlers and factory workers -- maids -- who were african-american and gave a dollar here and a dollar there to the civil rights movement because it would not have endured or survived without them. >> host: good afternoon, and welcome to booktv on c-span2. this is our monthly in depth program. one author, his or her body of work, this month it is author and journalist wil haygood.

here are his books. "he haygoods of columbus," 1997, "in black and white: the life of sammy davis, jr" in 2003, the "the butler" which we have talked about and his most recent book coming out last year, "showdown: thurgood marshall and the supreme court nomination that changed america". this is your chance to participate. we have been talking for about an hour and we would like to hear from you. if you have questions, comments you would like to share. we have gone through a couple books. 202-748-8200 east and central, 202-748-8201 if you live in mountain and pacific time zone. you can contact us electronically. book booktv twitter handle.

you can leave a comment there. just include at booktv. and you can make a comment on facebook.com/booktv. you will see wi -- the tab up there. how old are you when thurgood marshall was elected? >> guest: i was 13 so i was probably skateboarding. i had no knowledge or awareness of thurgood marshall's

nomination. i remember seeing flashes of unrests and riots on the tv screen. i lived with my grandmother and mother and they were both born in selma, alabama so they would be glued to the tv set. you know, that really -- one of the things i wish i had heard about thurgood marshall in junior high or sugar ray robinson but i hadn't. or what sammy davis, jr. did as

a riveting trailblazer in the arena of entertainment. and i think in a way that is what i seek to do with my book. i seek to fill gaps of history. holes in history that i think should be filled. if i had not written "showdown" i would have dreamed of walking into a bookstore and seen "showdown" and i would have bought that book immediately. since i never did, no one has ever written about the five days of this conformation hearings and all of the dramas around those five days, you know, which were stretched out into the like 13 days. like hearings here, then the chairman eastland no hearings

for the next two days without any reason. but that made the white house and thurgood marshall very nervous. those were five monumental days in the history of this country. you know? and johnson saw a moment and made it happen and nominated thurgood marshall and marshall became this great juris after this showdown battle and i think that he -- i think he made lynden johnson proud. there is a moment in the book when johnson was out of the white house and he had called

thurgood marshall and said the tell you put me through to get you on to the court. it was just hell. and johnson now on this rant in texas he told marshall i am going to write a book about that conformation process and how hard it was and i am going to write a book about it. and thurgood marshall said well, mr. president, if there is anything i can do to help you, i will. and johnson died, never got a chance to write that book. i told that story to my niece and she said uncle will, you have written a book that the president wanted to write. so if i have then so be it. i am happy about that. >> host: from your book, "he haygoods of columbus," you

learned about things on mount vernon avenue. about things that hummed and flew. life. i came to learn that it was the one avenue in our town that kept the town alive. >> yeah, it was a street. it was our harlem. it was a place of jazzy nightclubs, restaurants -- >> host: all black? >> guest: mostly black-owned. it was the epicenter of the black community. it was where dr. martin luther king, jr. would give a talk. it was where johnson visited, jimmy carter visited, a lot of politicians if they wanted to

get black votes they would have to appear on mount vernon avenue. and my mother went up to mount vernon avenue to some of the bars and nightclubs and my sisters did, too. my whole family went to this strip in columbus, ohio. that book actually was conceived as book about a street that slowly disappears over a period of time like many urban neighborhoods with nightclubs have disappeared for various reasons. urban renewal, highway being built. the highway came and sort of took the guts out of mount vermon avenue. but -- vernon -- i conceived that book, "he haygoods of

columbus," and it wasn't my idea -- that title. i am not -- i would not have thought that my name -- the last sirname of my family needed to be in a book title but that was my editor's decision. a great editor peter robinson. the book was about the rise and fall of mount vernon avenue and morphed into a family memoir. >> host: my mother drank. she could not hold it at all but when she drank she drank bourbon. when she drank she wanted to dance and talk philosophy. >> guest: yeah, a great, beautiful woman. we lost her not long ago in the family.

born in selma, alabama. worked most of her life and had a job as a waitress. she loved mount vernon avenue. she loved to have a good time. and you know, she loved the sense of family, too. that was very important to her; family. she lived with her parents, grandmother, grandfather for many years on the north side of the town. then we moved to the east side of the town into a housing project when where was in the ninth grade. that was actually my mother's first independent living my herself, you know? she lived there with her

children. and the bright lights of mount vernon avenue pulled her on the weekend. that, i think, was the impetus, looking back at my mother and her life, that was the impetus to do that book. >> host: did the bright lights grab you or any other members of your family? >> guest: yes. yes. everybody in the family, i think, liked to lure of nightclubs. i became the first person in my family to go to college in 1972.

i went off to college at miami university in ohio which is where i actually teach at now. and so i would be home in the summertime and i would peek in on what was going on on mount vernon avenue. but that nightlife, the dark and bright light of nightlife frightened me. you know? i just didn't want to be caught in the snair of it. i found a way to understand it by writing it about it. -- snare -- and now it is i don't know if this is charming or cute or what.

but mayor michael coleman, who just left office in columbus, has named a small part of mount vermon avenue wil haygood. and it is cross from the theater where i have a picture with my mother. that is a sweet moment in a writer's life. >> host: wil haygood is our guest author and journalist. kirk in oregon, you are the first up. hi, kirk. >> caller: hi, i want to make a comment on the story of barbara ross. there is a beautiful person just

having a voice in politics and does make a difference specifically this election year how people think their voice doesn't count. but this is a perfect example of a person widoes matter. it is a beautiful story and i enjoyed it very much and i will buy your books. thank you very much. >> guest: thank you very much. i sometimes talk to college students, even the students i teach, and i let them know, kirk, that one person can make a difference. you can be brave just with a pen and paper. that is what barbara ross did. i am sure she had no idea where that letter went, where it floated off to, she never got a response.

but many, many years later wil haygood, the little boy on the state board in 1967 grows up to be a writer and goes to finds the letter and then finds barbara ross herself. people can make a difference. it is wonderful to see things like that happen so thank you. >> host: did she review the book? did she like it? >> guest: yes, she did. she wrote me a wonderful letter which i will cherish. she said mostly in the letter that she had wanted to know all of the behind the scenes things that happen that enabled

thurgood marshall to make it on the bench. she told me. in her letter she said now i know, but ps maybe i will write my own book some day. she became a school teacher for many years. history. >> host: scotty is in portsmith, virginia. >> caller: how are you doing? i would like to thank you, mr. haygood for your books. i am sitting here listening to you and being a novice myself i would like to make a comment and pose a question also. i find it has never seem to be an attempt to give us a level playing field as far as mental and psychological fairness. the media things to slant things to always keep it in the

physical construct which most of the time some time of negative trigger is always acustomed to things we do even the good things. i would like to pose a question for you because i look for places where we can have an intimate audience with people like yourself and we can deliver information to us in the way that is mentally and psychologically support each other. do you know of any venues i can become a part of? >> guest: you know, my life is glued mostly to the writing aspect of what you happen to be

talking about. i look at the case of the new york congressman, adam clayton powell, when he died there were a lot of -- you are right. there were a lot of negative stories about powell and one of the things that i wanted to do as a writer is show his importance to johnson's war on poverty. and so that was my way of flipping the narrative about mr. powell. and i think that book did that. i think now he is soon as a fuller american figure, warts

and all. no one is perfect. but his talent far outweighed any flaws that he had and so that is where i can put your question finding the positive in these stories. >> host: i want to show video of adam clayton powell. >> i adam powell belong to a group of people that some others may think are inferior but i belong to a group of people that god, god of all power, said you are my children and you are the same as anyone else. and with that kind of faith in me and courage in me i know i am as good, if not better, than anybody that walks out.

it is not the color of your skin, brother. it is what you got in your heart and your mind that makes you a man or woman. remember that. and if you all will stand together then nobody in this world that can stop a united mass of people moving as one, standing together, working together, ticketing together, voting together, win together, walk together. take me to the promise land. >> host: and from your book, king of the cats, adam clayton powell had no predecessor and was handpiced by no one and arrived in washington with independenceed -- hand picked -- >> he was original. first black congressman from the

eastern sea board. arrived in washington in 1945 when he was sworn in. he was battling many politicians in his own party. something democrats, the very people who i ended up circling back to for the thurgood marshall book, southern democrats, he was in the house but these were senators. so powell was on the outside in the u.s. congress a lot because the chairman of the education and labor committee was a gentlemen by the name of graham barn who kept powell down. but with the way democrats who were elected in 1960, adam clayton powell senority elevated him and he became chairman thof education and labor committee.

awful position. he started passing a lot of social legislation and student loan bills, homeward bound program, he was instrumental in that and that is a beautiful program that i went through that government would find these gifted high school students and send them to a local college in the summertime to pay courses. it was a wonderful scholarship program that still exists. and so powell was responsible for passing a whole lot of the poverty legislation in this country in 1964-1965 and 1966. >> host: and his successor is still in congress, charlie

rangle. >> guest: yes, yes. >> host: took him in a primary, didn't he? >> guest: yes. powell, of course, was involved in scandal and taking two women on a trip and using house funds to -- by today's standards it is a small scandal but nevertheless he was ousted by several house members. not by the voters. and he sued the house. the case went the supreme court and he won. the house might have had a valid legislative if they would have

adhered to the will of the people first. but they just threw him out ignoring the will of the people who wanted powell to be seated. >> host: darryl is in tacoma, washington. go ahead. we are listening. >> caller: yes, first of all -- >> host: i apologize for int interru interrupting. but if you could get off the speakerphone. that is better. >> caller: okay. a paternity brother talked greatly about you and your accomplishments so very pleased. one of the things you mentioned was how the black finance civil rights. the butlers and wherever.

which is another area where the unions did most of the financing. they are responsible for getting people out of the jail, they did the march on washington, as well as the advance for all that transportation and the most powerful black person in the 40's and '50s was the secretary of that union, who was black, and they had over 30,000 members who were black and supported. so you have done wonderful. i just love your books. you tell great stories. and you are a great historian. so thank you very much. and the only question is of your memoir of your family, you

talked about your mother. is there anything else about your family that is special? because in many ways you are special and you really reflect that. >> host: let's get an answer from wil haygood. >> guest: thank you by the way for that call, sir. i like to think that i l -- all members of my family are very gifted. they have taught me things about life, unity, very close family, i see family members all of the time. so i am very fortunate to have the family that i have. i love them all of course very deeply. one thing about the financing of the civil rights movement --

when i was working on my family davis interviewed eric delefonte he said one of the things that you really have to get in this book is the fact that sammy davis, jr. spent a lot of money with dr. king to help bail people out. i never knew that. i was fascinated by that story. sammy was one of the few black entertainers who could overnight come up with $40,000 in cash to bailout kids and teenagers who had been arrested in georgia, or mississippi, or florida. he was great to learn that part of the sammy davis stories. it became a very important chapter in my sammy davis junior book so thank you for pointing

that out. >> host: back to "he haygoods of columbus," looking back i can see tat summer night marked the decline of my sister. she walked out of bed, thin as a wafer, into years and years of darkness. who is wonder? >> guest: wonder is my sister. >> host: twin? >> guest: yeah, she is my twin sister. she battled some demons in life. i lost a sister also. >> host: to the bright lights of mount vernon? >> guest: yes. yes, my sister gerlidean. things happen in families. there is that famous quote "all

families are alike in some ways" you know? and so -- but there is a wonderful flip side. my sister, wonder, recently graduated from columbus state community college. and i delivered the commencement address. so good for her. i am very proud of her. >> host: you also talk about the fact you grew up with a stutter. >> guest: yes, i did. i had a very bad speech impediment when i was a kid. you know, it is mostly gone but i would say in the second, third, fourth grade, you know, it was very -- it was so bad that i had to go to speech

therapy or whatever and you know. it was old fashion. they would put this big machine on my head. it was just crazy. you know? it didn't work. nothing worked. thad did not work. and life went on and things got better and better and better. so now it is almost invisible. but, you know, i had to come through that and sort of -- it is a mystery of how one can get through that. it almost -- i think it sort of steeped maybe in this. i kept getting cut from the basketball team. i got cut from the eighth grade

basketball team, i got cut from the tenth grade basketball team, and the junior varsity team. i would go back to the coach and ask for one more day of practice because i had enough confidence in myself that i would do better that extra practice. you know, i have always been very grateful if somebody would just believe in me. you know? just believe that i can perform

on the basketball court. i ended up, i am proud to say, of being on the basketball team in the eighth grade and being on the basketball team in the 10th grade and being on the junior varsity that miami university on the basketball team even played in referee matches at the university of kentucky. how is that for a guy who got cut from the basketball team? >> host: i think your producer, kay hughes, found a picture of you and your sister at columbus state university we want to show. >> guest: oh, wow. >> host: that was the speech? >> guest: yeah. >> host: george is in college park, maryland. thank you for holding. >> caller: thank you, mr. haygood, it is great to talk to you.

i originally had a question about empathy in the black community but you talked about your sister and it made me think about the fact there are african-americans that have promise and end up doing stupid things. myself is the same thing. i got into college, i had a horrible home life. my mother is crazy and father isn't working. i have to go through this with the expectations of no sight to next them and that leads someone to want to commit suicide. if you have no hope in this country. i can do any class simply because i have to deal with my parents' situation and on top of that deal with the lack of empathy toward the prejudice i get. with your experiences with upper bound, the programs that in

hibit african-americans to grow and spur into who they want to be -- how do you think a person like myself who gave up and started selling drugs and everything. how can i have a chance to redeem myself when so much has been put to me being nothing but a nigga. >> host: george, you are calling from college park, maryland. are you at the school? >> guest: yes. >> host: what are you studying? >> software science. seven year in school. i have not had the money for a place. horrible transportation problems. i cry a lot. i am pretty sure it happens to a lot of people. it is hard to go outside every day, hold yourself up and say i can do this when you try and you can see small bits of success but then it gets taken away

because you messed up here or might be doing this wrong or you follow the quote unquote wrong people when everybody around me sees me as the person who got to college and i am amongst others in college and they see me as the guy who barely got there quote unquote it hurts to try your hardest and have that grit when the perception is that everybody is against you. >> host: george, you said you have messed up. what have you done to mess up? >> caller: my personal mistakes have been in what you would call being late or small things with assignments being not fully gone through. the assumption your parent helping you or you have a mentor to be there. i have been alone. there is not many people who want to help a black kid. i don't mean that -- i have tried my hardest. i have worked with professors at

the school and tried day in and day out. >> host: that was george in college park, maryland. >> guest: george, first of all, don't dare give up. don't give up. this is sort of veer a little bit away from what you mentioned but as a foreign correspondent i watched nelson mandela walk out of prison after 27 years. he was relentless inside of his pride and inside of who he was and, you know, and he always kept the fate. there are a lot of people in

society who want to help people like you and you know, they are black who want to help you, there are whites who want to help you, there are asians who want to help you. the people who always had faith in me i look back and they were always school teachers who listened to me, family members have always had faith in me, have always dreamed as big as i have dreamed for myself they have dreamed right along side of me. you know? and then it comes to a point where you have to reach down and find the best part of george to

give to the world. i never once said that i wouldn't or that i should not make the basketball team. i knew no authors when i started writing books but dog gone it i had stories to tell and i figured i would find a way to tell these stories if i was going to fully commit myself to the craft of writing i had to learn the craft, i had to study, i had to read, i had to be very disciplined and focused, you know? and then don't be afraid to ask somebody. that is the story of my basketball life. i would always get cut but i would always ask for a second chance. a second chance is a beautiful thing. a lot of people see majesty in giving you a second chance.

don't be afraid to keep asking. so keep the faith, george. >> host: how did you separate yourself from the dysfunction of your family and the bright lights of mount vernon avenue? >> guest: i think the thing that rooted me in foraging or carving a path for myself were the four years i spent in college. during college one year, you know, and you have to have decent grades to come back the second year, you know? and you are getting closer to the day when you are going to finish and you don't want to flub up and you keep studying hard. you know? there was a shadow of my

grandfather who was a discipl e disciplineany. he is a focused don't do this, do that, listen to me. i had him in the shadoh -- shadows and never wanted to do anything to upset my grandfather. and there were people i knew intimatly who went to prison and i knew i didn't want to lose a day of my freedom. i was too busy thinking of books and other things i wanted to do with this life. you know? and i just really stayed focused. a friday night for others might

have meant going out to mount vernon avenue or some nightclub or some place. but a lot of times more often than not a friday night to me meant reading this magazine or reading that magazine and reading that book or things that would make me a brighter or smarter person. so studying and reading -- i kind of knew and felt that if i stayed focused that something good and decent might some along because of my hard work. >> host: we have about an hour and 20 minutes left in this months's in depth. our author is wil haygood.

every time we have a guest on in depth we ask them about their influences and books they are reading and here are some of the answers you gave us: [music]

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