[music] [music] [music]

>> host: we are back live with h wil haygood. we will put up the numbers. 202-848-8200 in the east and central time zones. 748-8201 for the mount and pacific time zone. we will put up our e-mail, facebook and twitter as well. those are other ways you can contact us if the phone lines are busy. we have mentioned it in black and white. i will read a couple quotes from your book about sammy davis, jr. he loved white women and the site of one on his black sheets.

his american dream. you go on to write nixon needed sammy's aura. >> guest: sammy davis, jr. was one of the more memorizing figures in the history of american entertainment. his mother left him behind, he was abandoned as a child and that haunted him forever. he went on the road with will and his father sammy davis, sr. he was a precious child. he was a prodigy. there is always a price to pay when you live in that world.

sammy was not seen as a handsome figure when he became a teenager in 15 to 17 and 18 he was up in canada when he was 19 and started getting a lot of attention from white women. up there, you know, there were not the racial restrictions that there were in the usa and sammy gravitated toward the interracial lifestyle that waserary dangerous in the usa. and i think his life -- was very -- until a concern point in the '60s, until he became friends with harry bell fonte

who had a socially conscious approach to entertainment, before that, sammy wasn't involved with the civil rights movement and the one they pulled him in he was happy to be there. it was like he had felt something that had been missing from his life and that was culture, a people, a place, and in a certain kind of love that is known to all cultures. i think sammy more than made up from missing an action earlier in the 40s and 50s, he came out in a beautiful way in the '60s.

he went to selma, he was at the march on washington, and he gave money to dr. king. sammy was doing a play, golden boy on broadway, and he bought the house out. and he sent all of the proceeds to dr. king and the christian leadership conference. that was a beautiful thing to do. and of course he sort of swerved again in the late '60s early '70s when he supported richard nixson has a very funny photograph of nixon in miami beach given a talk and sammy runs out and jumps up in his

arms. sammy had this overwhelming need to please everybody and that night he wanted to please all of the republicans in the arena. >> host: joe is on the line from shingle springs, california. hi, joe, you are on with author wil haygood. >> caller: i cannot believe i'm on. thank you very much. i waited for two hours and i cannot wait to talk to this gentlemen. i have a question. i am a history teacher and here is the question. considering johnson was from the south, texas, and had close senator friends who took care of him through his career from the south, why did nones do so much for civil rights at the end of his presidency? you think he was forced by the civil rights movement? or was he sincerely interested in black's rights or his legacy

in history? >> host: what do you think, joe? >> caller: that is a great question. being a history teacher i think it was all three. but i think his legacy was important to him. i think that being -- he was a teacher at the beginning of his year and maybe he thought maybe i can help kids in the future if i -- maybe that came back to him because that was his early history. but i think all three. >> host: we will hear from wil haygood but i want to read this from "showdown." why was lbj willing to risk so much on marshall? it layed in texas where marshall went years earlier and altered the political landscape. >> guest: thank you for that question. it is very important.

it is rooted in johnson's upb upbringing. he was born up poor and saw poor mechanic -- mexicans -- in texas and poor african-americans. he traveled around texas trying to find blacks who were living in thes these camps and slept with some of the black families. there was an intimacy he had with blacks and toward blacks. a very important part of the question was this fact. america was becoming unglued. the country in 1964-1965 was loosing its soul. these riots, discrimination, the

rebellion on the streets were because society was not fair. public housing projects were growi growing. you had the criminal justice system which was unfair and so you had a real historical moment for this country and we were seeing it on tv with the dogs facing the student marchers and chasing the children in selma and so thurgood marshall comes to the floor because he has been trying to tell the country that you are not living up to the principles of the u.s. constitution. so johnson was a strategist. she -- he was smart and didn't want to lose the country under his watch.

he was battling vietnam and had to win this moral cause and racial unity is a moral cause, it is a moral goal to having your vision and as the leader of the free world, it looked bad to foreign countries that we were mistreating a whole race of people and we had to fix that. it took politicians like republican everate dirkson out of illinois, lyonden johnson, and it took the best minds we had at the time -- lynden -- and he had no other option besides

getting down and fixing the racial unrest and that meant passing anti-discrimination legislation, pouring money into communities that have been massively ignored for years, and so, yes, some of it was his passion, his upbringing, but also a big part of it was that, you know, he had sworn to keep the country safe and to have all of its citizens treated equ equitably. >> host: did any of the senator vote for marshall? >> guest: there were 20 who did not and lyndon johnson forced or arraigned to not vote.

so they just poof, vanished, went away. but the important thing is that the final vote, 69-11, which sounds wide but the southern democrats were only a handful of votes away from causing a filibuster. so the white house got thurgood marshall on to the court in a very, very close battle. >> host: how did those 20 senators disappear? were they busy that tay? >> guest: here is an example. lyndon johnson would make a phone call to a senator, how are you doing? how is your wife? that is good to know. i understand there are some people in your community who

want to name that bridge that is being built there. i want to name it after you. that is a great thing to have it named after you. lady bird and i would love to make a visit and ride across that bridge if that should happen. but i tell you what, i got thurgood marshall, i have to get him on to the court, and i am set against making his happen. now there is a funny thing about bridges. they are built because of federal money. now i hate, senator, to see this money disappear at the last-minute and you have no bridge. your wife would be hurt, your family, and all the people you bragged about will all go up in smoke. i don't want to happen and neither do you. there is no cause for that to happen.

that was the lyndon johnson style. he would find a weak or sent ltal spot like we did it associate justice tom clark. we wanted tom clark to step aside so he would have an opening for thurgood marshall. >> host: did he appoint ramsey clark as his attorney general? >> guest: yes. >> host: mary, you have been patient. thank you. >> caller: hello. i want to thank c-span because i wasn't familiar with mr. haygood until i saw him on a show of yours years ago. i am calling in because i love sammy davis as well and i read the biography he wrote himself

which was rather long if i recall right. i was a teenager when i read it. when i look at sammy davis i like listening to his recordings from the '50 and '60s. those are some of the songs and arrangements i enjoy. when i compared sammy to frank sinatra i didn't consider one of those gentlemen extremely handsome but i thought sammy davis, jr. was a triple threat. he was a better actor, singer and dancer. i do feel having not been african-american in that time era he might have been the preeminent star and given the preeminent power that frank sinatra enjoyed in holiday. i wanted to hear some of mr. haygood's comments on sammy davis, jr. and thank you for writing. i am looking forward to reading

more of your books. >> guest: yes, wow, i think frank sinatra was well aware of sammy davis, jr.'s talent. he was at the paramount theater when he first saw sammy davis junior out on stage and he was bowled over by sammy's talent. ...led over by sammy's talent and i think we look back at the rat pack, no one in the rat pack could do what sammy did. now, frank who is one of my favorites, all-time singer was the singular american worldwide sensation. sammy did not have an opportunity, especially when it came to movies that frank sinatra had.

i wish he had of, had the same opportunities. there were many scripts sammy wanted to star in to be a part of movies. but, >> people who ran the studios understanding to play the lead n role and i think that that hurt sammy. it was quite beautiful laden semis life. he went on to her with frank sinatra and dean martin and sammy when the marquee around the country would just saycount sammy, frank d in the house. and sammy was the one when they went back for the curtain call he was the one who would get the

loudest applause. it was really evil, very pregnant, and something that meant a lot to sammy. his his road had been harder than dean martin's road and frank sinatra's road. i think these audiences that during that last tour they made. >> host: when you see the old videos of the rat pack up there on stage drinking, smoking, ring attending and making mild racial jokes about sammy davis junior, how important was that? did that have significance? >> guest: yes, because because when you look at the other

entertainment of the time. and very few of them had black and it was rare to see blacks on tv in the early 1960s and so sammy swallowed those racial jokes. he swallowed them, i do believe that the friendships were genuine. i think frank sinatra had a lovo of sammy davis junior. he knew knew sammy's mother, he knew sammy's grandmother, he had been to sammy's house a lot.'s like friends, they sometimes cut on each other's nerves but i do think there is a real affection there, and sammy also played into the racial jokes.

he was younger than the rest of the guys and he had always been surrounded by older, more powerful men like his father and so i think sammy, i think he took that in in his way to get even was to perform his tail ofr on stage. broadway, nightclub, tv specials, politics, tap dancing, he could play the drums, he was a great mimic, he did just, he did pop before we came on the air you are singing candy man, quite well i must admit to.quite [laughter]

and so sammy had multi, multi, multi- talents. >> host: we don't talk about what we do a fair hero cease. here's rinaldo in texas. >> caller: thank you very much. will will you are a fantastic author. about one year ago a retired justice o'connor said that the only vote that the supreme court that she would change would be the one to let the florida voters have their reek count. and thurgood marshall had been on the supreme court in the year 2000, he too would've voted to let the loaded voters get the recount and get the person who had the most votes win and become the present which was al gore. our concerned articles that say that thurgood marshall would be very disappointed with the current african-american justice, what is your opinion?

>> guest: i think that thurgood marshall, i'm sure he would have opinions about the justices on the court right now. some opinions he would agree with, and others he wouldn't. the more conservative opinions, thurgood marshall would not agree with. he was about more freedom, more liberty, more justice and so those opinions that have appeared to tilt in the opposite direction, he would not like at all.

>> host: he served in the burger court, was was he in the rehnquist court? >> guest: yes. >> host: what kind of relationship steady over the other justices, particularly some of the relationships with the conservative justices? >> guest: very warm and cordial, but he was always aware that he came from a completely different background than any other justices. he is very aware of that and he was very aware that he was an african-american and the only african-american on the court. when he was on the court sometimes groups, small groups, family, tourist would come to the supreme court and they were would get on the elevator and

thurgood marshall would be on the elevator, tall black man, not wearing his robe. the family returned to him and say, fourth for please and thurgood marshall would say fourth floor, okay?and he was hit the button and later they would walk into the chambers into the court himself and they received the black man who they thought was the elevator operator. they would see him in his robe now. to be thurgood marshall and not be bitter you had to have a great sense of humor. thurgood marshall would tell that story with a great sense of humor.tell t >> host: in cleveland we have a caller we have a caller i like to mention that that there were

four african-americans about whom the author wrote and they had biographies written about them before hand. i wonder, did mr. hagood find anything that was missing from those biographies? maybe that made him take him on as subjects, and if you did find something missing, can he tell us what his research brought to the table and could you alsoch tell us something about the creation of the titles for his different biographies of those for african-american males? >> host: thank you. >> guest: great question. letev let me start first with the titles. showdown, the showdown book i

really grappled with that title for three years. actually the first title of the working title was confirmation in the my editor peter did not like it and wanted to haveunky d something else in the title and i was in bed one night and i just said to myself, goodness i have to get something to show the reader that this was a real showdown. and that i said to myself that's it, that's it showdown. and with thunder i was having trouble with that in a fellow writer, friend of mine said why don't you go robinson was there in harlem during the time of

duke ellington what are you look at duke ellington phone book see if there is anything that sticks out and i looked at one of duke ellington's titles and it said something to me about thunder and i told my editor that that's the title and he said let me think about it and he came back a day later and said i think itt will work but let's so thunder was born. and black and white with sammy davis junior, he looked into into a world, one world black, one world white. very simple, very direct title like came up with that and my editor liked it. king of the cats. adam clayton powell, that did not erupt from within me, my editor came up with that title.

he thought that he was a real cool cat unless came of the book king the cats and butler, that sort of was right out there and stan gross will crossville, the photographer myself for the two people who took that long 42 day trip trip on the mississippi river, that's two on the rivern and family memoir, of columbus, my editor came up with that title to. so that's the story behind theht titles. other books have been writtennd what did i bring to my book? i would like to think something very different i always try to

find a window, different window, side door a back door to into what i'm telling these sweeping biographical stories. i need an angle, a different doorway. so for the thurgood marshall book, no one had written extensively about these confirmation hearings. h so that was the angle. with sugar ray robinson, nobody nobody had written extensively about the intersection of culture and -- as it related to his life. he's kept away from boxing to become a tap dancer. so focused a lot on his life outside of the ring. that was the angle i took in that.a sammy davis junior, no one had written extensively about sammy and his relationship with will

masten and his father, sammy davis senior. so about the first 200 pages hundred pages of that book are really about this trio, this old-fashioned vaudeville trio, not to name drop, but denzel washington had bought the rights to the sammy davis book.t he wanted to make a movie. he told me that the reason he bought the rights to the book was he had a lot of admiration for the family and for the three people traveling around 1930s america in 1940s america.0s amei with sammy junior and sammy sr.r and never got made, but another director in hollywood now has the right to that story and so

fingers crossed something happens. so i wanted to bring the black world and the white worlds also to that story the hagood columbus the interesting angle was telling that story about the rise and fall of that street and what else was the other book? oh two on the river, that was just a travel journey and in the clayton powell book i really wanted to to dive deeply into his college career and the battle that happened on the hill when he was tossed out of congress. i've always tried to find an

angle as well just had my own narrative to the story. >> host: so the butler is a movie, sweet thunder is it getting ready to be made? >> guest: well, david, the great great actor from selma in the butler and west several movies coming out the share has signedi the play to -- signed to play sugar ray. the screenwriter has justscriptb started. he is writing as we sit here ane talk.nd so that is a nice feeling.

>> host: has king of the cats been auctioned? >> guest: it was, and and then it no longer is under option. so that is open, but. >> host: what about showdown? >> guest: yes that has been optioned by pam williams, the b creative team behind the butler and they are working on that right now in the sammy davis junior book has also been optioned by hollywood by one of my favorite direction, lee daniel. so loretta from date ohio emails inches what have you learned about this human condition from writing your books? what has been the biggest prizem question.

>> guest: that people with creative muscle often stop at nothing. they do not look at the same barriers that we look at, i think about the people that i pick to write about their often people who i am in all. i know i don't have their gifts in no way, shape, or form but if i study them long enough maybe i can satisfy myself that i know adam clayton powell now, i know thurgood marshall now, i know sammy davis junior now. that is what i can bring to it,

that is my muscle, that's what i can give to the world. but there give, i am in all of their gift. these are are the people who made america, they really are if you look at america as a big spinning wheel as a spokes will come it spins over there in over there, well,l you will see sammy davis in one of those wheels. you'll see at powell in one of those wheels, you'll see thurgood marshall in one of those wheels, that is the turning of america, you'll see a butler in one of those wheels and what i have tried to do as a writer is catch up through the turning of those wheels. i have tried to reverse it a bit, write about it and understand it and then i will let the we'll be spinning and

think that may be somebody cnet spinning wheel or reading the book, that they will understand why that wheel is spinning with sammy davis junior in the centeh of it. >> host: dorothy is calling in from alabama. good afternoon dorothy. >> caller: good afternoon, thank you c-span and think you will for the wonderful body of workpa that you are providing to the current generation and hopefully to the future generation. i was born in monrovia will alabama, they joke the black built where harper lee lifted roque to kill a mockingbird. i work for 21 years in all levels of education from k-12 to the governor board system. for state university. my questionn is related to your

work as a scholar at miami university of ohio, having lived and worked in ohio and our paths have crossed it is good to see you on c-span today. i found it as you know a nonprofit called the row said james foundation and last year i started a organization called the tennessee valley leadership diverse city cloak one of the topics we discussed his diversity in education. my question is related to your past year at miami university and some of the most passionate conversations we are having of the topics and all leadership cloak them of local leaders hasd to do with the current state of racial -- in america and the

lack of history, not only in textbooks but the lack ofoks conversations that the collegiate level or any level of the education and what impact do you plan to make, or how do you see us impacting the current generation of college graduates and future graduates generation of graduates because it is works like yours that are educating people who are in their mid-to-late 50s like me.e. educating us about what really went on, because we did not get it in history books worrying k-- 12 n. college. spee1 i think i think we have the point dorothy, thank you.thy. >> guest: thank you dorothy, that was a great question of

very important and significant question. i am reminded of the texas state of texas textbook controversy when they wanted to refer the slaves as quote workers. of course that was voted down but the fact that something like that would be tabled is astonishing. i think that universities and colleges across this country need more diversity. there is no doubt about it i think it is incumbent upon university presidents and department chairman's to makeeui that happen. i think there are a lot of

writers, scholars, artists who are not from the traditional background but have done wonderful things and i think those artists should be brought into the academic community. i think it is more enjoyable for the students to see somebody who is not so much a traditional academic background such as myself. i have a ba degree, but i have seven books. and a whole lot of writing behind me so i think is the people who run the university just the same as the people who run the corporation in this

country. i think if they think outside of the box that we would all be better off for it. there is a lot of chatter about him month ago that that you new york times about the 500 most powerful people in this country and everybody was talking about 97% of those photographs were white. we have to make america the best nation that it can be. we have have a lot of gifted people from all races in this country and we should not fear anybody's marks are anybody's -- we shouldody's embrace it b1 diane williams

tweets in, and joined the live interview, i plan to i plan to donate some copies of showdown to our local thurgood marshall. middle school. renée is in south carolina. caller: hello. my question is, to will haygood, first of all i just want to say i admire you very much you wrote about some phenomenal strong black men that i grew up admiring. my question to you is this, i know you said that your mom and grandmother are inspirations in your life and you did write about black men, but there are some strong phenomenal black women that have donated so much our history in the united states. i was was justst wondering, do you plan in the future, whichever write about a strong black woman like hamer, or my angelo, or barbara or barbara georgian, shirley

chisholm? as far as entertainment, diane carroll or mina horn? i just like to know if you have ever considered writing about some of these phenomenal strong black women? >> guest: thank you rené. not trying to run from thattionu question. but they were some phenomenal historical figures that you mentioned. but every time i get it in my mind that i might write about this or that woman, i walk into a bookstore and somebody has already beaten me to the punch. i kid you not. if i was to tell you somebody

that is circulating in my mind right now, i have no doubt that somebody would run out there, it could be a tenth grader. would run out there and write the book about this lady figure before i would. but in all my books there is a lot of attention paid to the women in these men's life. even in sweet thunder there is a chapter about the beautiful w women in sugar raise time in the 19 forties. i write extensively about lena horne and others. so i hear your point, it is a great point. but people keep beating me to the punch. i'm just going to have to look harder and find somebody who is almost completely in a way,

unknown at least from a book ate writing stance and i'm going to have to claim that person and hop to it. so thank you, good question. >> host: so is someone circling around in your mind for your next book. >> guest: yes, unfortunately ity is not a biography per se, it is the story that i really don't talk too much about it, but it's a story about something to do with with sports in the 1960s. but i'm at work on it right now some excited. >> host: so jonathan tweets and, hopefully the butler will inspire more filmmakers to look into 1930s 30s and 1950s

in black: ll life. we haven't spoken much about's sugar way robinson, this is from sweet thunder, he had chosen economic justice over the cry for social justice. civil rights organizations pleaded with him to join his cause in public instead he donated money and welcomed themd into his nightclub. >> guest: sugar ray robinson was a different figure, he was a loner, he did not really have a lot of friends, he was suspicious of a lot of people. i think the fight with a lot of strange characters, did that to him. he. he did not go to the march on washington but where he could put his power and what he did was in his concern for children. he himself was a poor child usec

it beg for money in the street. he loved children went to a lotd of hospitals. that was where he left his mark as far as giving back.giving he wasn't very public with his endorsement of politicians. he liked robert kennedy a lot though. he wanted kenny kennedy to go to the white house. >> host: about 30 minutes left with our guest. steve in franklin indiana.

>> caller: hello c-span two, i really like the program. my question to willis, getting back to justice marshall, after the confirmation of use conferred i was just wondering about his transition into the supreme court. were any of those justices that have been there forever helpfult to him? i know hugo black at one time was a member of the ku klux klan. subsequently he became one of the most liberal justices. you had william douglas, did anybody mentor him and what was that like? his transition and apprenticeship as a justice of the supreme court? >> guest: thank you. he was very smooth. hugo black who you mentioned actually gave him the oath of tt office. i think hugo black had done a lot to atone for his one-time membership in the kkk. i think those justices, yes,

thurgood marshall had made history but those justices would also be judged by how well they accepted thurgood marshall into the fold. marshall is a great storytellerr if he sensed awkwardness from any of the justices he would go into this gift of storytelling and not always put everybody at ease. but he was on a-in the for the little person, for the little man of the little woman, for the poor person, for the disabled person and he let that be known his dissent when he felt the

court not paying attention to those who had been done wrong in society. he had a sharp pen and he would wield it. thank you for your question. >> host: will haygood, what inspired you to go from the state park in minnesota down to new orleans on the river?si >> guest: eyes at the boston globe and i was new to the staff and sam, per photographer photographer there who is stills there, a great photographer he has one a couple of pulitzer prize is in every other honorco photographers to get.

but it was the one 50th anniversary of mark twain and they wanted to do something to honor that.s he came up with the idea to take a trip down the mississippi river. the editor at that time, i think the editor asked him well is there any rider in the newsroom who you would like to go with? sam said yet there is this new guy here and i like the way he writes see if we can get him. will haygood. now he is a very canny guy. he would've thought something like this out.you kn

so huckabee and white engine being the slave, there is that historical reality going on even though it was a fictional book. so sounded like an interesting, fascinating idea. i was was very happy to get this rare assignment and we wanted literally to do it from the headwaters in minnesota down to the gulf of mexico. we would up to the headwaters and walked across. it is 3 feet where you can walk across the mississippi and then we traveled some by road and

then one of us came up with the idea to have a raft in the raft was waiting on us when we got to hannibal, mark twain's hometown we got on the raft and we are on that for about nine days and then we got thrown off in a thunderstorm by that time we are ready to kill each other anyway. your float on a raft, the swells are washing over us, we are both wet, it's scary out there at night with thunder and lightning. i am not in any sense a river read and neither is stan. and we almost fell off the raft

one day and at the last minute we thought to tie ropes to eache other. and it was splashing raised, it was crazy. the fire department, someone sauce, someone sauce from land and water those two knots doing out there on that piece of floating wood. then they call the fire department a man stand looked ud and there is three fire trucks on the side of the riverbank waiting on us. then we get off that and then we got back in the car and we are in some southern town along thea river and we saw the mississippi queen steamboat anchor, about that takes people up and on the mississippi river so we ran and tossed our way under that. we're like two journaliststwo

trying to get on the river and can you get us a lift. we the card and everything and hopped on the steamboat. then we went further south of memo got to new orleans our little boat and we motored out to the gulf of mexico. and that was the end of the mississippi river. that was the end of the story. we voted up in the magazine article is called 42 days of the mississippi. it came out we did the photograph of course i wrote the story and i'm sitting in the boston globe. this story came out on a sunday and i'm sitting at the boston globe newsroom on monday afternoon and i get ag ib call from the atlantic monthly press which was mark twain's publisher. and it's peter davison who is the editor there and he says, well i just read your story i'm

here in new york and i register about the trip to the mississippi river and i want to know if you have enough there for a book? oh i have lived so many years with the dream of getting an opportunity somehow, someway to write a book. and that magical phone call came in 1986 and that was my first introduction to meeting a book editor into signing to write aoo book. the thought happen.reat is a great, scary, frightening, beautiful, wonderful, unforgettable trip with stan.

>> host: next call comes from city in maryland. please go ahead. >> caller: hello. thank you c-span. i'm a middle-aged white women who who campaign for president obamampar because i want to change and i was so horrified by the previous administration. but one caller kind of stole my thunder nasty if you had been pried anything in the human condition as good if you are surprised by the racism thatat rears its ugly head afterth president obama took office. i knew that i was, i had no idea that it still existed in the country even amongst my own friends and family sometime i was surprised. the other thing is going to say was on an native from baltimore and was very sad to see what happened a year ago with the unrest following pretty great stuff. i listen to people calling the

newscast asking over and over why the black people were destroying were seemingly over h destroying the neighborhood and i realized it's because they really don't feel like it is their neighborhood. that area, that neighborhood down in baltimore is right around the corner from tourist destinations, in the shadow of the mason building, but it is not healthy community and a family or neighborhood that i think they feel a part of. it is just really hard to know p how to help and how to move things in a positive direction so i was going to ask you, were you surprised by the racism that has come out since the president has taken office said what a regular person can do to help with things in a positive direction. thank you. >> guest: thank you very much for your very thoughtfulou veryu question. thank you for being who you are.

i am not surprised, anyone who is studied history as well as i have would not be surprised atd what happened but the unique part of that story is that many people who refuted the negativity, the racial harmony of the moment that it took to break down this epic wall in this country of having an african-american family enterrha

the white house that is me, not his butler, but the president, the first lady of the united states and the butlers who have worked there have done great work but a country with the legacy of slavery we know how epic that moment was. so it wasn't a surprise but it was very delighted to see the goodness that we witness because that was something that said something to the rest of the world. if there is something to a small kid in kenya, it says something to a small girl in sri lanka, it said something to a small black

kid in the slums of london. this said something to a small little girl in ireland who is losing hope for whatever reason. so the largeness of that moment as i think unparalleled, of course course it is in this country.th the single is was huge, think think it is going to continue to be huge. but racism is a stain on this country that we have not figured out how to squash it. the answer simply lies in what we as individuals do, what you'll keep on doing, the kind of stories that i want to tell

and books and literature and music to explain the story of ts american history. the entire arc of america, despite setbacks we have kept moving forward. that is the amazing thing about this country. we have kept moving forward. some days it seems hard to do so but it is like the congressman from new york with clayton powell he said do not get weary, i won't look at you until you don't get weary. >> host: and people were interested in reading your writing about being held captive

in somalia, or traveling with david duke, what would be the way best way to get hold of that? >> guest: i wrote those two stories that you mention when i was at the boston globe. i was covering ku klux klan david duke and the run for the u.s. senate so i went down to louisiana and i was at a rallyua with him, oddly enough he had to get to another town across the state and his driver had not show not so i said mr. duke, i'm free, let me drive you. he sort of looked at me like he was unsure, but he had to get to this place where he had to go.

and so there we were, me and david duke riding across the state of louisiana and it made for a great story goodness gracious, the somali story, i sort of guess the stories you can get them online, the boston globe archives but the somali story i was a foreign correspondent and i was in somalia, i was covering theethe civil war i went with aai photographer and not that i wanted of course to be taken hostage, i did everything that i could to make sure that i wasrs going into a place where nobody was looking for me. i wanted to get in there, write the story and get out. and so one of these workers in kenya had said bye dear which is

a village those already attacked two months ago and the rebels are not going to circle back so soon and attack it again so you're safe. go in there, do your story and we have a transport claim to bring in some wheaton corn there and in today's and you can hop on the ride and come back to kenya. well as luck would have it on the first night i was there rebels came out of nowhere and attacked the village. it was a scary situation but we got out, kim and i got out it was a rather strategic move made there is a ransom paid for us by former government, the u.s. was not involved but they let it be known that they cared about us

to get us out of there, out of the situation so they found two south african pilots to bring a small plane into the desert to get us out. that is how we made it being in a small plane and a pakistani funeral, the general is not going to be out there in the middle of nowhere without his troops. so when we went out in the air we were rescued, we were all dehydrated, still frightened but when we went up in the air for about ten minutes maybe 15 minutes the plane started to land and i was worried like do not land, let's get out of here but we landed and when we got off the plane the generals troops come about 300 had surrounded the plane and told us

you are safe now, i not sounds like something out of the movie but it really happened. >> everybody listening to this, what what did you and david dukh talk about. >> guest: we talked about about politics much like i tried to do with senators and showdown in the thurgood marshall book i tried to get an understanding i would say david it's just me and you and this car how did you get to be who you are, this person who says the things and they sound outlandish and they sound

dangerous and they are dangerous. he would say like a lot of it came from how i was brought up on things happen to in your childhood those things become instilled in you and his thinking was that name every stereotype about lax, blacks and welfare, blacks driving big cadillacs, all of that lunacy. he believed that. that was a part of his upbringing those are things that people said to him and he

believed it and he started a making these speeches. he he was very calm and talking to me. it was surreal, it was a little surreal, was. >> host: did he come across as a cardboard figure? >> guest: no. talking to me one-on-one, estoppel in the context of beint unabashed racist i mean very thoughtful but very calm and very, in his mind articulate and what he was trying to express he

seemed to think that this was an interesting moment for him in his life to be in this car with this journalist in boston asking him these questions. these were almost come it seemed that i felt he would have loved to have said with former friends that he lost. he would've loved to have said these things in a calm voice and a quieter setting. i knew that if we were to pull over to a town and there was a cloud, all-white crowd of coursh waiting on him that he would it started thundering, again all of his racist dogma he would've started thundering at the top of

his lungs. he got back into the car i would have continued the conversation that we were having. i have no doubt about it.doubt u alexis and young harris georgia will we have about one minute left. will thank you mr. haygood, i'm reading your book show good right now and enjoyed it very much. my question to you is, if someone grew up in the segregation of the south and members, thurgood marshall nomination hearing and thurman especially, i just want to ask now, we have an african-american president who is appointing a white, jewish jurists and is

getting the same kind of slack but in a different way from the senate. what you think about that? >> guest: thank you for your question. i think that it is awful that the u.s. senate has decided not to schedule a hearing for judge garland.ings for i think they're shirking their constitutional duty. i was in chicago last week and a group of judges picked me out for lunch, my book received some award and the judges took me out for lunch and i was sitting next