that we want to show. >> guest: wow. >> host: that was the speech, right? just go yet. i gave the address. o-oscar george is college park, maryland. pigs are holding on. you're on with author, wil haygood. >> caller: it's really great to speak with you. i initially had questioned about an essay towards african-americans of the struggle but this kind of led me to want to more devotion about the other side where there is many african-americans you see that have promised an end to doing down there, myself is a perfect example. college come off all right,

everything like that. i had a horrible home life. my mom is physically crazy, my father not working. i ago throughout this modern modern problems in addition to going to the problem of being an average american with these expectations and no site of any means to accomplish them. and that lead somebody to want to commit suicide. if you have no hope in this country with all the brain you can stay, i can do any class simply because i have to do with my parents situation and on top of that coming the lack of empathy towards the prejudice i get. but your experience with upper bound him and his that allow african-americans severe american situations, how do you think that a person like myself is basically giving up, how can i have a chance to redeem myself in so much as input to me being

nothing but a -- >> host: you are calling from college park, maryland. are you at the university? >> caller: yes i am. computer science. software for my seventh year. i actually worked -- >> host: seven dear? >> caller: seven dear. i didn't have the money to pay. i then horrible transportation, i can't go to class when i have -- i cry a lot and i'm pretty sure that happens to a lot of people. it's hard to go aside a day, hold yourself up and say i can do this when you try. you can see small business success but then it gets taken away from you because you must appear or you might be doing this wrong or you follow the quote, unquote wrong people when everybody around me sees me as a person i got to college and i'm amongst other people in college

and a seen as a guy who barely got here quote, unquote. it really hurts to try your hardest and have that great when everybody is -- the perception is everybody's against you. >> host: george, you said you've messed up. would it be done to mess up question dark >> guest: >> caller: my personal mistakes have been late or small things with assignment need not fully done. a lot of times the assumption your parents will help you or you have some mentor. there's not many people who want to help a black kid. i've tried my hardest. i've actually worked with assessors at this school, tried day in, day out. >> host: that was george in college park, maryland. >> guest: george, first of all, don't dare give up. don't give out.

this is sort of go into gear a little bit away from what you mention, but as a foreign correspondent, i listed south africa and i watched nelson mandela walked out of prison. he's been in prison 27 years. you know, he was relentless inside of his pride, in spite of who he was. and he always kept the faith. there are a lot of people in society who want to help people like you. they are black to want to help you come help you, whites who want to help you commit asians to who want to help you. you know, that people who always

have faith in me i look back and they were always teachers to listen to me, you know, family members have always had faith in me and have always dreamed its biggest -- as big as i've dream for myself, they've turned right alongside of me. then it comes to a point where you have to reach down and find the best part of george to give to the world. i never once said the thought that i wouldn't -- or that i do not make the basketball team. i knew no authors when i started

writing books, but i have stories to tell and i figured that i would find a way to tell these stories if i was going to fully commit myself to the craft of writing, i had this study i had to read. i have to be very disciplined and focused and then don't be afraid to ask somebody. that is the story of my basketball life. i would always get cut but i would ask for a second chance. a second chance is a beautiful thing because a lot of people see majesty in giving you a second chance. don't be afraid to keep asking. keep the faith, george. >> host: how did you separate yourself from the dysfunction of your family and the bright lights of mount vernon? >> guest: i think that the

thing that rooted me and for gene are carving a path for myself for the four years i spent in college. you're in college one year, you know, and you have to have decent grades to come back to thinking air, you know, and you're getting closer to the day when you're going to finish and you don't want to flood the period you keep studying hard. there was a shadow of my grandfather was the disciplinarian. he's a very focused, you know, do this, don't do that, listen to me. don't do this. and so i had to in the shadows

and i never wanted to do anything that would upset my grandfather. i think also there are people who either intimately who went to prison, you know, and i knew i could not want to lose the day of my freedom. i just didn't want to go to jail. i was too busy taking of books and other things that i wanted to do with his life, you know, and i just really stay focused. a friday night for others might have been going out to mount vernon avenue or some nightclub where some place. but a lot of times, more often than not a friday night to mean that reading this magazine or reading a magazine or reading

that book, you know, doing things that i thought would make me a brighter person have a smarter person. studying and reading. i kind of knew and felt if i would stay focused that something good and decent might come along because of my heart work. >> host: with an hour and 20 minutes left in this months "in depth." our guest is wil haygood, author and journalist. every time we have a guest on "in depth," we ask him or her about their influence in the books they are reading. here are some of the answers from wil haygood. ♪

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♪ ♪ >> host: we are back live with

wil haygood on "in depth." we'll put the numbers on the screen if you'd like to participate on the tv. (202)748-8200 the eastern central time zone. 748-8201 for those of you in the mountain and pacific time zones. we will also flash up our twitter address it you want to send a tweet and our facebook page and e-mail address as well. those are other ways you can contact us at the phone lines are busy. we've mentioned several times in lacking why. i want to read a couple quotes from your book about sammy davis junior. he loved white women, the sight of him as black silk sheets, the american dream. you go on to write, nixon needed them is alright, the way sammy that welcomed nixon's power to sell his insecurity.

>> one of the more mesmerizing figures i think in the history of the american entertainment. elizabeth as a child and that haunted him forever. he went on the road with two villains, will not submit his father, sammy davis senior. he was a precious child. he was a child prodigy. there is always a price to pay when you live in that world. and so, sammy was not seen as a handsome figure when he became a teenager and 1517, 18.

he was up in canada when he was my team and i started getting a lot of attention from white women. upstairs there was not a racial restrictions that there were in the u.s.a. and sammy gravitated towards that interracial lifestyle. that was very dangerous in the u.s.a. and i think his life -- until a certain point in the 16th, early 60s until we became friends with harry belafonte and cindy fortier who both had a very socially conscious approach to entertainment, before that, sammy was than all but the civil rights movement. but once they pulled him in, he

was happy to be there. it was like he had found something that had been missing from his life and not with culture, a people, a place them in a certain kind of love that is known to all cultures and they think cme more than made up for missing in action earlier in the 40s and 50s he came out in a beautiful way in the 60s. he went to falmouth. he was at the march up washing to and he gave money to dr. king. sammy was doing a play, golden leg on broadway and he brought

the house out in all of the proceeds for dark or king and the southern christian leadership conference. that was a beautiful thing to do . in the late 60s and early 70s when he was supported and a very funny photograph in miami beach given a talk in sammy run out in his arms. sammy had this overwhelming need to please everybody permanently wanted to please all the republicans in the arena. >> host: joe is on the line

from shingle springs, california. uri with dr. wil haygood. >> caller: i can't believe i'm on. i would've for two hours and i can't wait to talk to this gentleman. i am a history teacher and here's my question. considering that lyndon johnson was from the south obviously taxes and had close centered her friends, take care of him through his career from the south, why did john do so much for civil rights at the end of his president day. you think he was forced by the civil rights movement overseas sincerely interested in lax rights are his legacy and history. >> host: what you think? >> guest: that's a great question. being a history teacher, i think it was all three. it's legacy was important to him. he was a teacher in the

beginning of his career and maybe he thought i can help kids and their future. maybe that came back around because that was his early history. i think all three. >> host: we will hear from wil haygood. this is from his book showdown on thurgood marshall. why was the way to risk so much? a good part of the answer they were marshall had done years earlier and altered the political landscape. >> guest: thank you for the question. it's a very important question. it is rooted in lyndon upbringing. he was born poor and he saw mexicans in texas and poor blacks, especially when he was a youth director during the roosevelt administration and he

traveled around texas trying to find jobs for blacks who are living these hardscrabble can. he slept with some of these black families. so there wasn't an embassy that he had with black. also, a very important part of that question, this fact america was becoming unglued. the country and make it 60 or, 1965 was looking at seoul, writes discrimination, the rebellion on the streets were because society was not fair. public housing projects were growing. he had the criminal justice system which was unfair.

and so, you had real historical moment for this country and we were seen it on tv with the dogs facing mr. archer is in chasing the children and allow, thurgood marshall comes to the fore because he had always been trying to tell the country that you're not living up to the principles of the u.s. constitution. lyndon johnson was a strategist. he was smart. he did not want to lose the country under his watch. he was battling via tom. he had to win this moral cause and racial unity is a moral cause. it is a moral goal to having your vision. as the leader of the free world, it looked bad to foreign

countries that we were mistreating the whole race of people. and we have to fix that. it took politicians like republican edward derksen out of illinois, lyndon, bobby kennedy. it's a the best and the brightest minds that we had at the time to fix this racial quiet liar in this country. johnson really had no option but to get down and figure out ways to fix the racial unrest and that meant passing antidiscrimination legislation, pouring money into communities that have been massively ignored

for years. and so yes, some of that was his passion, his out bringing. but also, a big part of it was he had worn his oath of office to have all of its citizens treated equitably. >> host: did any of those folks are thurgood marshall and the party break down. >> there were 20 who did not they were arraigned to not contagious spoof, vanished, went away. but the important thing is the final vote 69-11 which sounds like the southern democrats were only a handful of those away for

a causing a filibuster. so the white house got thurgood marshall on to the court in a very close battle. >> host: how did those senators disappear? were they busy that day? >> and engine then would make a phone call to a senator and a how are you doing? how is the wife? i understand there's some people in your community they want to name the bridge. that's a great day and my goodness they and maybe berg and right across that bridge but

i'll tell you what now, i got thurgood marshall. i've got to get them onto the court and i'm set against making this happen. they are built because of federal money. i hate to see this money at the last minute disappearing you have no bridge. ..

i was not aware of mr. hagood and i started watching c-span a couple of your ago and i find mr. hagood and enjoyable interview every time i hear him and the reason why i am calling this because he also wrote a book about sammy davis junior who is one of my favorite entertainers and ears ago i read the autobiography which is sammy davis wrote about himself, which was rather long as i recall your kind was a teenager when i read it at any rate, when i look at sammy davis, i particularly like listening to his recording from the 50s and 60s. that's the arrangements i enjoy,

but also when i compared sammy to frank sinatra, for example, i did not consider either one of those gentlemen extremely handsome, but i did think sammy davis junior was a triple threat. he was a better actor. he was a better dancer. he was a better singer, so i do feel heading up an african-american in that time era he might've been that preeminent star and given the preeminent power that frank sinatra enjoyed and hollywood, so i just wanted to hear some of mr. hagood's comments on sammy davis junior and thank you for writing and i look forward to buy more of your books? host: will hagood. guest: yes. i think frank sinatra was well aware of sammy davis junior's talents. queues at the paramount

theater in 1930s when frank sinatra first saw this kid, sammy davis junior, out on stage and he was bowled over by sammy's talent and i think we look back at the rat pack, no one in the rat pack could do what sammy did. now, frank who is one of my favorites, all-time singer was the singular american worldwide sensation. sammy did not have an opportunity, especially when it came to movies that frank sinatra had. i wish he had of, had the same opportunities. there were many scripts sammy wanted to star in to be a part of movies. but, that hire at the letter the script went

the people who ran the studio less when it sammy to play the lead role in. i think that hurts sammy. he was something quite beautiful late in sammy's life. he went on to her with frank sinatra and dean martin and sammy in the marquis around the country would just say, sammy, frank, dean: sold out. sammy was the one when they went back for the curtain call, he was the one who the loudest applause. it was really beautiful, very poignant and something that meant a lot.

sammy's road had been harder than deana martens road and frank sinatra's road and i think that these gentlemen knew that during that sort of last two were that they made. host: bill hagood, when you see the rat pack onstage drinking, smoking, creating and making a bit of a mild racial joke about sammy davis junior, i mean, how important it was that? did that have significance? guest: well, yes because you look at the other entertainment shows of the times and very few of them had black and so, you know, it was rare to see blacks on tv in the early 1960s and

so sammy swallowed those racial jokes. he swallowed them. i do believe that the friendships were genuine in that frank sinatra had a love of sammy davis junior. she knew sammy's mother. he knew sammy's grandmother. he had been to sammy's house a lot. like friends, they sometimes got on each other's nerves, but i do think there was a real affection they are and sammy also played into the racial jokes. he was younger than the rest of the guys and he had always been surrounded by older and

more powerful men like his father and so i think sammy, i think you took that in and his way to get even was to perform his tail off on stage. broadway, nightclubs, tv specials, politics, tap dancing. he could play the drums. he was a great mimic. he did jazz. he did pop. before we came on the air he sang candy man quite well. so, sammy had multi- multi- multi- talent. host: we don't talk about what we do offset at c-span. remodel in texas. thank you for holding.

caller: thank you very much. you are a fantastic author. about a year ago, a retired justice o'connor said that only vote she would change would be the one to lift the floor-- let the boat-- sort of voters have their recount. had thurgood marshall been on the supreme court he too would it let the florida voters get their recount and let the person that had 560,000 more votes when in that had been al gore. i read certain articles that say that marshall would be disappointed with the current african-american justice what is your opinion? guest: i think that thurgood marshall, i'm sure he would have

opinions about the justices on the court right now. some opinions he would agree with and others he would not. the more conservative opinions as thurgood marshall would not agree with. he was about more freedom, more liberty, more justice. so, those opinions that have appeared to tilt in the opposite direction he would not like at all. host: he served in the burger court. was he in the rehnquist court? guest: yes. host: what's kind of relationships did he have with the other justices, particularly personal relationships with some of the conservative judges?

guest: very warm, very cordial, but he was always aware that he came from a completely different background than any of the other justices. he was very aware that. he was very aware that's he was an african-american and the only african-american on the court. sometimes groups, small groups families, tour rest would come to the supreme court and there get on the elevator and thurgood marshall would be on the elevator, tall, black man not wearing his robe. family would turn to him and say, fifth floor, please and thurgood

marshall would say with-- fifth floor, okay and he would hit the button and the later they would walk into the chambers into the court itself and they would see a black man who they thought was the elevator operator and if they would see him in his robes now. to be thurgood marshall and to not be bitter you had to have a great sense of humor. thurgood marshall would tell that story with a great sense of humor. host: neville in cleveland. go had, neville. caller: i would like to mention that there were four african-americans about whom the author wrote and that they had biographies written about them before hand. i wonder, did mr. hagood

find anything that was missing from those biographies that made him take them on as subjects and if he did find something missing, can he tell us what his research brought to the table and it could he also tell us something about the creation of the titles for his different biographies of those for african-american males? host: thank you, neville. guest: my goodness. great question. let me start with the titles. "showdown", the "showdown" book i really grappled with that title for like three years. actually, the first working title was confirmation.

it was wooden clunky and my editor did not like it and wanted to have something else for the title and i was in bed one night and i just said to myself, goodness i have to get something to show the reader that this was a real showdown and then i said to myself, that's it, "showdown", "showdown", that's it. sweet thunder, i was having trouble with that and fellow writer friend of mine said, well, why don't you go sugar ray robinson was there in harlem during the time of luke ellington. what you look at the duke ellington songbook and see if there is anything that sticks out and i looked at one of duke ellington's title and it said something to me with such sweet thunder and i told my

editor that, that is the title and he said, well, let me think about and he came back to me a day later and said i think it will work, but let's take off the such, so "sweet thunder" was born. in lacking why, sammy davis junior lived in two world, one world black, one world whites and very simple, very direct title. i came up with that and my editor liked it. "king of the cats", adam clayton powell. that did not erupt from within me. my editor came up with that title. he thought adam clayton powell was a real cool cat and thus "king of the cats".

the sea, the butler, witness of history. that sort of simple, right out there and "two of the river", the photographer at myself for the two people who took that loan 42 day trip on the mississippi river. family memoir, the davis of columbus, my editor kim up with that title to, so that is the story behind the titles. yes, other books have been written. what did i bring? i like to think something very different. you know, i always try to find a window, different window, a side door, attic, door, backdoor to go into when i am telling these sweeping biographical stories.

i need a angle, a doorway, a different doorway both for thurgood marshall book no one had written extensively about these confirmation hearings, so that was the angle. with sugar ray robinson, no one had written extensively about the intersection of culture as it related to his life. he stepped away from boxing to become a dancer and so i focused a lot on his life outside of the ring. so, that was being alike took in that. sammy davis junior, no one had written extensively about sammy and his relationship with will mast and his father, sammy davis senior. about the first 200 pages of that book are really about this trio, this old-fashioned trio,

not to name drop, but denzil washington had bought the rights to the sammy davis book and he wanted to make a movie and he told me that the reason he bought the rights to that book was that he had a lot of admiration for the family story, for the three people traveling around 1930s america, 1940s america, three black people, sammy junior and tammy senior and will. it never got made, but another director in hollywood now has the rights to that. so, fingers crossed something happens. so, i wanted to bring the black world and the white world also to that story.

the hagood's of columbus, the interesting angle was telling that story about the rise and fall of that street and what else was at about? "two on the richter" that was just a travel journey and adam clayton powell book really wanted to build deeply into his college career in the battle that happened on the heel when he was tossed out of congress, so i have always tried to find an angle as well just to add my own narrative dance to the story. host: so, "the butler" movie

"sweet thunder" is getting ready to be made? guest: david, the great actor from some and the butler who has several movies coming out this year has assigned to play sugar ray robinson. he will be great in that. host: does it start filming at any point? has a script been written? guest: the screenwriter has just started. he is writing as we sit here and talk, the screenwriter. so, that's a nice feeling. host: and has "king of the cats" been optioned? guest: it was an it no longer is under option, so that is open, but-- host: what about "showdown"?

guest: showdown has been optioned by pam williams productions. the creative team behind "the butler" and they are working on that right now. the sammy davis junior book has also been optioned by hollywood by one of my favorite favorite directors, lee daniels. host: coretta from date ohio e-mails and: mr. hagood, what have you learned about the human condition from writing your books? guest: that people with creative muscle will often stop at nothing.

that they don't look at the same barriers that we look at. i think about the people who i pick to write about, and they are often people who i am just amazed with. i know i don't have their gifts in no way shape or form, but if i study them long enough maybe i could satisfy myself that i know adam clayton powell, now. i know thurgood marshall, now. i know sammy davis junior, now. that's what i can bring two words it. that is my muscle. that's what i can give to the world. their gifts, i am in all of their gifts. these are the people who made america. if you look at america

as a big spinning wheel like a smoke wheel, a distance over there and it spends over there and spent over there, well, you will see sammy davis in one of those wheels. you will see adam powell in one of those wheels. you will see thurgood marshall and one of those wheels and that is the turning of america. you will see in one of those wheels and what i had tried to do as a writer is catch up to the turning of those wheels. i have tried to reverse it. i try to write about it and to understand it and then i will let the wheel keeps spinning, you know. and think that maybe someone else is seen as spinning wheel or reading the book that they will understand why that wheel is spinning

with sammy davis junior in the center of it. host: dorothy is calling in from harvest, alabama. that afternoon, dorothy. caller: good afternoon. thank you, c-span and think you will for the wonderful body of work that you are providing to a current generation and hopefully to a future generation. i was born in monroeville, alabama. i worked for 21 years at all levels of education from k-12 through the governing board system. my question is related to your work as a scholar at miami university of ohio. having lived and worked in ohio and our paths

have a cross, it is good to see on c-span today. i founded as you know a nonprofit called the rosetta james foundation and last year i started a organization called the tennessee valley leadership diversity and one of the eight topics we discuss is diversity in education. my question is related to your past year at miami university and some of the most passionate conversations we are having of the eight topics in our leadership of local leaders has to do with the current state of racial depravity in america and the lack of history, not only in textbooks, but the lack of conversations at the collegiate level or any level of education and

what impact do you plan to make or how do you see as impacting the current generation of college graduates and future generations of college graduates because it's works like yours that are educating people who are in their mid- to left-- late 50s, like me, about what really went on because we didn't get it in history and k-12 nor in college. host: i think we got the point, dorothy. thank you. will hagood. guest: thank you, dorothy. that was a great question, very important and significant question i am reminded of the texas-- the state of texas textbook controversy when they wanted to refer to slaves as quote workers.

of course, that was voted down, but just the fact that something like that would be tabled is astonishing. i think that's that's university and colleges across the country, the more diversity, there's no doubt about it and i think that it is incumbent upon university presidents and department chairman to make that happen. i think that there are a lot of writers, scholars, artists who are not from the traditional background, but have done wonderful things and i think those

artists should be brought into the academic community. i think it's more enjoyable for the students to see someone who is not from a traditional academic background. i have a ba degree, but i have seven books in-- and a lot of writing behind me, so i think if people who run the university just the same as the people who were in a corporation in this country, i think if they seek out-- outside of the box that we would all be better off for it there was a lot of chatter about a month ago in the "new york

times" portrait of the 500 most powerful people in this country and everyone was talking about 97% of those photographs were white. we have to attack that to make america the best nation that it can be. we have a lot of gifted people from all races in this country. we should not fear anyone smarts or anybody's genius. we should embrace it. host: diane williams tweets in enjoying a live interview with will haygood. i plan to donate some copies of "showdown" to our local thurgood marshall middle school. hello, renée. guest: hello. my question is to will

haygood and first of i just want to say i admire you very much and you wrote about some phenomenal strong black men that i grew up admiring. my question to you is this, i know you said your mom and your grandmother are inspirations in your life and you did write about black men, but there are some strong phenomenal black women that have donated so much to our history in the united states and i was just wondering, do you plan in the future, would you ever write about a strong black women like my angeles, shirley chisholm and as far as entertainment, leah horne or diane carol? i would just like to know if you have ever considered writing about some of these phenomenal strong black women.

host: thank you, renée. guest: thank you, renée. i'm not trying to run from that question, but those are some phenomenal historical figures that you mention. but, every time i get into my mind that am i tried about this or that woman, i walk into a bookstore and someone has already beat me to the punch. i kid you not. if i was to tell you someone that sort of is circulating in my mind right now, you know, i have no doubt that someone would run out there-- it could be a 10th grader, but would rent out there and write the book about this lady

figure before i would, but in all of my books there is a lot of women in these men's life and even in "sweet thunder" there's a whole chapter about women in sugar is time in the 1940s. i write extensively about lena horne and others and so, i hear your point. is a great point, that people keep beating me to the punch. i'm just going to have to look harder and find someone who is always completely in a way unknown at least from a book writing stance and i'm going to have to claim that person and hop to it, so thank you. good question.

host: will haygood, is someone circling around in your mind your next book? guest: yes. unfortunately, it's not a biography per se. it's a story that i really don't want to talk too much about it, but it's a story that has something to do with sports in the 1960s. but, on that work on it right now, so i'm excited. host: jonathan morte tweets in: hopefully "the butler" will inspire more film makers to look 1930s to 1950s black life. we have not spoken much about sugar ray robinson. this is from sweet thunder. in chosen economic justice of the cry for social justice. civil rights organizations pleaded with him to join their cause in public.

instead, he donated money and welcomed them into his nightclub. guest: sugar ray robinson was a difficult figure. he was a loner. didn't really have a lot of friends. he was suspicious of a lot of people. i think with a whole lot of strange characters did that to him. he did not go to the march on washington. but, where he could put his power and where he did was in his concern for children. he himself, a poor child used to beg for money in the streets and he loved it children. he went to a lot of hospitals. that was where he left

his mark as far as giving back. he wasn't very public with his endorsements of certain politicians. he liked robert kennedy a lot, though. he wanted kennedy to be in the white house. host: about a half-hour left with our guest. will hagood on a book tv caller: hello, c-span 2. really like the program. my question to will is back to justice marshall after the confirmation and he was confirmed i was wondering about his transition into the supreme court. were any of those justices that had been there forever helpful to him? i know one at one time was a member of the ku klux klan and he became

one of the most liberal justices. you have william zero douglas. did anyone mentor him and what was that like? his transition and apprenticeship as you will as a justices-- of the supreme court. guest: thank you. it was very smooth. hugo black who you mentioned actually he gave him the oath of office. i think hugo black had done a lot to atone for his one-time membership in the kkk. i think that those justices-- yes, thurgood marshall made history, but those justices would also be judged by how well they accepted thurgood marshall into the fold and marshall was a great storyteller.

if he sensed awkwardness from any of the justices , he would go into his gift of storytelling. that always put everyone at ease. but, he was unabashedly for the little person, for the little man or the little woman, for the poor person or the disabled person and he let that be known. his dissent could be staying when he felt the court was not paying attention to those who had been done wrong in society. he was, he had a sharp

pen and he would will that. so, thank you for your question. host: will haygood, what's inspired you to go from minnesota down to new orleans on the mississippi river? guest: i was at the boston globe and i was sort of new to the staff and sam gross velde, a photographer there who still there, great photographer who has won a couple pulitzer prizes and every other owner. it was 150th anniversary of mark twain birth and assam gross velde wedded to do

something to honor that. he came up with the idea to take a trip down the length of the mississippi river and the editor at that time, the editor asked him, well, is there any writer in the newsroom who you would you like to go with and sam said yeah, there is this new guy here and i like the way he writes. see if we can get him. now, sam is a very canny guy. he would have thought something like this out, you know, huck and jim, have been white and jim being the slave, so there was that, you know, there was that historical reality going

on even though i was a-- it was a fictional book. so, it sounded like a interesting fascinating idea. i was very happy to get this kind of rare assignments and we wanted literally to do it from minnesota down to the gulf of mexico. we went up to the-- and walked across, 3 feet where you could walk across the mississippi and then we traveled some by rodin then stand, it was either me or stand in one of us came up with the idea to have a raft built in the

raft was waiting on us when we got to hannibal. we got on the rafts and we were on that for about nine days and then we got thrown off with a vicious thunderstorm. by that time we were ready to kill each other anyway. you are floating on a raft, you know, big swells are washing over as. where both flat, scary out there at night, thunder and lightning. you know, i'm not in any way a river rat and neither is stan and will most a lot of the raft one day and at the last minute we thought to tie ropes to each other and held each other from slipping off with the splashing rain. it was crazy and the fire department, someone

saw us from land and you know, whatever those two nuts doing out there on that piece of floating would and they called the fire department and me and stand looked up and there were three fire trucks on the side of the river bank waiting on us. then we got off of that and then we got back in the car and then we were in some southern town along the river and we saw the mississippi queen steamboat anchored to bow that takes people up and down the mississippi river, so we read and talk our way onto that. you know, we are like two journalists, you know, trying to get down the river and can you give us a lift and we left of the car and everything and hopped on this steamboat and then we went further south and then we got to new orleans and got a little

boat and we motored out to the gulf of mexico and that was the end of the mississippi river. that was the end of the story. we wrote it up in a magazine article called "42 days on the mississippi" and it came out. sam-- extended all the photographs and i wrote the story and i am sitting in the boston globe-- the story came out on a sunday and i'm singing in the boston globe newsroom monday afternoon and i get a call from the atlantic monthly press, which was mark twain's publishing and it's peter davison, the editor there and he said, will, just read your story. i'm in new york and i just read your story about this trip down the mississippi river and want to know if you have enough there for a book. i had lived so many years with a dream of

getting an opportunity somehow, someway to write a book and that magical phone call in 1986, maybe 1987. may be-- anyway that was my first introduction to meeting a book editor and to sign to write about. that is how it happened and it was a great scary, frightening, beautiful, wonderful, unforgettable trip with my good friend stan. host: next call for will haygood comes from cindy in maryland. go ahead, cindy. caller: hello. thank you for c-span. i'm a middle-aged lay women who campaign for president obama both times because i wanted

to change it i was horrified by the previous administration and the one court kind of stole my thunder and asked you if you had been surprised by anything in the human condition. i was going to ask you if you are surprised by the racism that reared its ugly head after president obama took office. i know i was. i had no idea, you know, what still existed in the country and amongst my friends and family sometimes i was surprised. the other thing i was going to say is i'm a baltimore in, native baltimore in and was saddened to see what happened a year ago with unrest following freddy grey's death and i listen to people calling in the newscasts asking over and over why the black people were destroying or seemingly destroying their own neighborhood and i realized it's because they really don't feel like it is their neighborhood. that area, that neighborhood in baltimore is right

around the corner from tourist destinations in the shadow of the late mason building, but it's not a healthy community and a family or a neighborhood that they feel a part of. it's just really hard to know, a person like me it's hard to know how to help them boost things into a positive direction, so i was going to ask you number one were you surprised by the racism that has come out since the president has taken office and what a regular person can do to help to take things into a positive direction. thank you. guest: well, thank you very much for your thoughtful, very thoughtful question. thank you for being who you are. now, i am not surprised. anyone who has studied history as long as i have would not be surprised at what

happened, but the unique part of that story is the many people who refuted the negativity, the racial harmony of the moments that it took to break down this epic wall in this country by having an african american family into the white house. not as maids or butlers, but as president and first lady of the united states and the maids and butlers who had worked

there had done great work, but the country with a legacy of slavery how epic that moment was so, wasn't surprised, but was very delighted to see the goodness that we witnessed because that was something that said something to the rest of the world. it said something to a small kid in kenya. it said something to a small girl in sri lanka. it said something to a small black kid in the slums of the london. it said something to a small little girl in ireland, who is hoping

for whatever reason. so, the largeness of that moment is, i think, unparallel, of course it is in this country. the symbolism was huge and i think will continue to be huge, but racism is a strain on this country that we have not figured out how to squash it. the answer simply lies in what we as individuals do, what you will keep on doing and the kind of stories i want to tell and, you know, books and literature and music to explain the story of american history.

the whole arc of america despite setbacks, we have kept moving forward in that the amazing thing about this country we have kept moving forward. some days it seems hard to do so, but it is like the congressman from new york adam clayton powell who i have written about. he said, don't get weary i will look at you until you don't get weary. host: if people were interested in reading your writing about being held captive in small yet, or traveling with david duke, what would be the best way that to do that? guest: i wrote those two's stories that you mentioned that i was at the boston globe.