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>> a thick blurb from "the boston globe," beautifully written and disturbingly funny as her previous books, "grunt" examines the researchers who are leading the charge in these state of the art developments. an engaging anecdote of reflection. mary is also the author of the curious coupling of science and sex, spook, science tackles the after-life and stiff: the curious lives of human cadavers. and her writing has a appeared in about every magazine you can possibly imagine. she's going to be in conversation with our own jeff greenwald, the author of five best-selling books including shopping for buddhas, future perfect: how star trek captured planet earth, and jeff is also on our factory -- factory.

[laughter] yeah, jeff works in our factory. [laughter] and besides that, he's also on the faculty of our travel writers' conference, so if there are budding writers in the audience tonight, you can find out more about our conferences. there's a mystery one in july and one in august, and jeff will be on the faculty of that. and you can find out all the information about those before you leave tonight or in our newsletter. so without further ado, would you please welcome mary roche and jeff greenwald. [applause] >> hi. >> hi. [laughter] >> do you want to say anything about your voice, or will your voice speak for itself? >> yeah. well, i'm a few act to haves lower due to a case of -- well,

it's not laryngitis anymore. you can hear me now. anyway, i'm hoping it holds out. we've got tea here, so should be good. >> thanks, everybody, for coming. thank you, dana, for the great introduction. i'm going to start with this question, mary. you work with sprouts from very unusual seeds, so what gave birth to "grunt?" >> actually, it was close to -- it was a seed. it was a chili pepper. i was reporting a piece on the world's hottest chili pepper. i was in india, and someone told me when i was reporting on this chili pepper and this contest where people eat it, someone said, you know, the indian military weaponized this chili pepper, and i thought, well, i really need to report on that. i went over to this science lab that the indian army maintains to talk to them about the chili

pepper which they'd never deployed because the man said it was prone to mildew. [laughter] so it kind of bombed. >> oh, well. >> so the exploding chili pepper grenade never was deployed. but while i was there, there were other interesting things going on. they were working on a leech repellant that was right up my alley. i don't know, a leech repel hasn't. . -- repellant. i thought military science sounds far more esoteric and more roachable than you might think, and that's what got the ball rolling. >> yeah. the roachable thing is something i'd like to ask you about. all of your books are wonderful, they're scientifically enlightening, and they're really funny and kind of breezy, a lot of hem. did you feel any sort of worry about bringing this kind of lightness or breeziness or humor

to the world of soldiers which are kind of sacred in the united states right now? soldiers are our heroes, they sacrifice a hot. how did you feel about bringing your humor to that subject? >> a lot of trepidation about that, a lot of concern. you know, i wanted to, i have to, i have to be me. i gotta be me. it's got to be a mary roach book. so it had to be funny, it had to have some levity. on the other hand, like you said, this is war, and and people are injured in many ways, and i didn't want to be disrespectful or make light of things in an inappropriate way. so i tended to make fun of myself as the clueless outsider that i truly was. for example, i would -- at one point i have a chapter on, basically, how do you, how to design a vehicle -- basically automotive safety for people who drive on bombs. you know, how do you create a vehicle that will keep the passenger safe if a bomb comes

up from underneath. so they were showing me around this large armored vehicle, and they were talking about how it had to be stripped down. you couldn't just keep adding more armor, because that would make it so heavy, it'd be be too heavy for the engine, for the brakes, etc. so it was very stripped down inside. and i said, oh, it's great you still have cup holders. and the guy said, mary, those are rifle holders. [laughter] and that kind of thing would happen over and over because i really am not -- i haven't spent any time in the military. my father was very old, he was 65 when i was born. he actually enlisted in world war i. he was born in england but lived here and made it as far as basic training where he got a hernia, and that was that for the illustrious roach military career. >> so is this feeding? i think it is. so in terms of your being kind of this person who blunders into these situations without knowing

much about them, you've covered so many subjects now. the last one that was similar to "grunt" was "packing for mars." was it harder to get access to the military or to the space program? >> you would think the military, but in fact, it wasn't as difficult as nasa. the military was very, they were very straightforward. it was either is this prompt classified? -- project classified? if so, then no. right up front, no. if it wasn't classified, people were very helpful and willing to kind of, you know, help me. the problem, the difficulty was it wasn't that people were saying no, it was nobody felt they had the authority to say yes, so you'd have like 15 people, you know, i can't say yes, but i think you have to ask these people. and those people -- it was sort of ping-ponging back and forth. it tooking a year and a half to get on a trident submarine, you

know, a year and a half. and not, again, it was just trying to find the, just a way on there. in that case, partly because i wanted to be only on for a few days, not the months that they're out there. [laughter] you know, i do like to immerse myself in reporting, but it has its limits. >> the good news is you can getten on, the bad news is -- get on, the bad news is you'll be on for 12 months. >> exactly. >> the beauty in your books is all the details, sort of unforgettable. in your chapter about military uniforms, you mentioned the united states government buttons specification guide is 22 pages long. and i was amazed to read that the army requires that its clothing designers have a fashion design degree. isn't that sort of an oxymoron? >> well, yeah, you would think so. i was surprised as well. be and the woman that i was talking to in the design lab at munich labs -- munich labs is

where they design, basically, the accessories of being a soldier, the clothing, the things you carry, the things you sleep in, tents, sleeping bags, whatever. they have a design lab for the uniforms, and this woman had a fashion be degree, and she -- her background was in swim wear design. i thought, that makes no kind of sense to me. and she said, well, actually, if you think about it, it does. because a bathing suit is for a specialized activity, athletic activity, it's in a specialized environment, it's water. so it has to be, you know, it has to give, it has to react with the water in a certain way. so, in fact, she felt that her background in swim suit design was, in fact, a fairly appropriate one. and the other woman there had worked for priscilla's of boston, high-end wedding gowns. [laughter] she said here again, okay, what's a wedding gown? be it's a layering of specialty fabrics, very similar to body armor.

[laughter] which you might just need. [laughter] >> one thing we learn from your book is some things that you think would be a lot of great danger to soldiers like sharks, say, if they go overboard are actually no problem at all, but some things you really don't think about like diarrhea with, which is -- are a gigantic problem. why is diarrhea such a grave problem for soldiers? [laughter] >> well, let me tell you. [laughter] well, first of all, there's historically diarrhea was, there's a -- dr. william osler had a great quote. i don't know, father of modern medicine. i don't know much about him, that's just what they call him. he was one that said dysentery has been more fatal to soldiers than the powders or shot. seven soldiers died from dysentery and disease versus one killed in combat.

and what would happen, you would have these field camps, and you've got the mess tent where you're preparing food, no refrigeration, and you've got an open, like, pit latrine and flies, unbelievable number of flies also attracted if there were any bodies around. so the flies were landing in the latrine material and buzzing over to the beans, so the flies land on the crap, and then they have these pathogens on their feet, and they inoculate the food which sits there for two hours, and then the whole camp gets dissenner the orally or yellow fever, typhoid fever, whatever the pathogen is. so it was a tremendous problem. now it's not because there's good hygiene on bases, there's -- the bases, we have air-conditioning, so the whole dining facility could be sealed. you never have to open a window, so there's no flies anymore. so that's not a problem. but it is a problem if you're

in, say, special operations, you're one of those guys going out in a small unit in, say, a small village in small -- somalia or yemen, and those people are eating with the locals eat, and the water is often not safe and the food. and the rates of diarrhea with those folks are very high, twice the rate of ordinary enlisted soldiers. and you can imagine if you were going to, i don't know, take down osama bin laden, whatever your assignment was, and you are hit with extreme gastrointestinal urgency, that's a problem. >> do they have any miracle drugs we don't know about? >> well, they were testing -- i went all the way to djibouti, africa, for the diarrhea chapter. [laughter] that's just the kind of gal i am. [laughter] and in a lot of special operations, navy seals, etc., going out to various yemen, somalia, north africa. and i went with a diarrhea

researcher who was testing a very quick, one-dose regimen where you would at least be, you know, back on your feet in a few -- in a matter of hours rather than days. so that's one thing. that's what they were testing. so that's -- >> top secret9. >> top secret. no, actually, it'll be coming soon to a drugstore near you. [laughter] >> one thing that was interesting in the book, you know, we always sort of take for granted that mexico is kind of like the poster child for travelers, you know, but how mexico won that honor is kind of an interesting little story. >> yeah. if you go on to club meld which is a -- club med which is a database of all the medical journals, most of them anyway, and you put in diarrhea and guadalajara, you will get 35 medical journals. it's like synonymous with diarrhea. because herbert dubont, the godfather of diarrhea

research -- honestly, this man has done more for counteracting diarrhea than any man on the planet, i don't know if he's retired now. anyway, he set up -- he thought, where are people getting sick? he set up a lab at the university using students and tourists as his study subjects and published a lot of papers out of guadalajara. >> do you think the reason he's never won a nobel prize in medicine is just because the nobel committee is embarrassed to call him up? >> i would think he's probably won an ignobel. [laughter] >> you dressed up at one point for this role as a journalist, you were with a group called strategic operations, was that the name of it? >> yep. >> you had to play a role in the theatrical recreation of a war scene. what was that like? what was the role that you played? >> well, strategic operations is, it's a big movie studio in southern california that is now used for training combat medics

and navy corpsmen who do the med icine for the marine corps. the films made there used to be action films, war films, so their really good at -- they're really good at violence, gore, loud explosions. and they have actors come in. it's hyper-realistic is the word that they use, they've trademarked the word, hyper-realistic. medics and corpsmen, and i think some of them are women, and they're come anything, and they are immersed in this scenario. it's very intense. they're got pyrotechnics. they're duds, but they sound real. and they have dust hits so it looks like rifle fire's actually happening. there are actors, some of whom are amputees who have of a latex sleeve on the stump with, you know, really impressive gore is and a backpack with stage blood

that is pumped at an accurate rate. and there's a remote control for the bleeding, and if the navy corpsman is putting the tourniquet on properly, the bleeding will slow, and it's not properly, they continue to bleed, and the actor, you know, gets very quiet. and meanwhile the instructors are screaming. it's a very tense scenario. in order to get close enough so i could see what was going on, i requested a role. and they were like, well, we don't know what to do with you. [laughter] i suggested that i just play a journalist who gets in the way. [laughter] i was typecast. so that, that's what i did. >> how did these doctors do in that situation? did they keep their calm? was there reason to feel confident about their abilities in the field? >> it was a big difference between the -- it was a two-day course. the first round of experiment, of simulations versus the last, there was a tremendous difference. the first one was, you know,

there would be a guy who would go to pick up a stretcher, and you have to coordinate picking up a stretcher. if the other guy on the other end doesn't know, the patient falls off. [laughter] and this one guy, baker, kept -- he did that twice. another time he stood the wrong way, so he was backing up. [laughter] meanwhile, you know, the instructor's like, baker, you know, just yelling. a lot of words i can't use on c-span2. [laughter] >> was it fun or were you actually kind of terrified? did you get in the spirit of the acting? >> you definitely, your adrenaline gets going. and just partly from the loud noises and the startle response from the gunfire be even though it's not real. and that's part of what's important, because the fight be or flight response, you get this boost of adrenaline, the fight or flight response is great if you need to fight or runaway, but if you need to cut an emergency airway or apply a tourniquet or do a decompression

when somebody's lung has collapsed, that's not helpful for you. so they need to be practicing these skills in, like, the worst physical scenario when you're flooded with adrenaline x that makes their hands shake. so that's kind of what -- so it wasn't so much i was afraid, you know, for my life, but you definitely aren't -- it's not a relaxing afternoon. [laughter] >> yeah. you became sort of a method actor at that moment. >> yeah. >> one thing i love about your books is you get to meet all these scientists who you'd otherwise never hear of, some people who are on the front lines of some obscure form of research. what are the qualities that attract you in a scientist when you do these books? >> you know, i don't know who they're going to be until i go to meet them. often i've only exchanged e-mails. scientists in general tend to be really interesting people. i had no idea what george peck would be like. george peck worked for walter reed, the department of military

entomology. he was of the silk fly and maggot guy and not at all kind of what i expected. a very sensitive, philosophical soul who loved nature in all its forms, including the maggot. he had such -- maggots are used, i should say, i should, you know, explain. maggots in a wound perform this amazing function. they eat the dead tissue which encourages the growth of the new tissue, and they fight infection in that way. so they do debreedment which is typically do surgically. but in world war ii, these soldiers would come in with these horrible wounds, and the wounds were doing great, they weren't infected. so george peck was looking into using maggots at walter reed for some of the ied injuries. >> the iud injuries? [laughter] >> yeah. exactly, yeah.

>> the iud jurors. >> he tried to put this on me two weeks ago at a talk. jeff said toalt, so, mary, when you talk about soldiers who have been hurt by iuds -- [laughter] i'm sorry. [laughter] sorry. >> it's all right. you did it this time. [laughter] >> anyway, yeah. when an ied goes off, because it's a buried explosive, it blasts all this debris and sand and dirt deeply into the wound. and so there's a lot of problems with infection. so george peck was looking at bringing maggots into the armory of the surgeon and, like, trying to get people okay with that. but he, so he said, you know, he had me over to dinner, and he said i'll raise a clutch of maggots for you -- [laughter] specially for you. and when you arrive, they'll be the same age as the maggots we introduce into wounds. so i got there, and we had

dinner, and we -- i was finishing my wine, and george peck went away, and he came back with what looks to me like a cut glass bowl with chocolate pudding -- [laughter] but it was actually raw liver with my clutch of maggots in there happily feeding, which is what maggots do. they love to eat. anyway, george was saying look at -- he took, he said, you know, put a couple of them on my finger tip, and he had me look at them outside the context of the raw liver, you know, or whatever -- you know, maggots, it's all context. when you take them out of the rotting body or the liver, they're cute. they're kind of like the size of a cupcake sprinkle. >> really? >> they are, they're very cute. [laughter] >> all right. >> they are. he was like those little creatures, those mandibles can do what no surgeon's scalpel can do. he had this real just tremendous respect and passion for these little creatures. i love someone like george peck.

[laughter] i didn't know that that's what i was getting when i showed up there, but anyway -- >> have you heard from george peck since the book's come out? >> just to thank me for the book. i don't know if he's read it yet. i didn't want get any feedback. >> he and his maggots are some of the, you know, most memorable characters in the book. however many maggots you came in contact with. >> however many. >> among the strangest programs you report on in "grunt" is the army's attempt to create a truly noxious stink bomb. >> yeah. >> but it wasn't really a bomb, or was it? >> no. >> what actually is it? >> you mean the world war ii one or the more recent one? >> the more recent one. >> the more recent one, it's a malodorant. it's a horrible smell used to clear a room. like, if i had one here in my bag -- [laughter] that's actually not, no, it's not. i did have, i did have one

called stench soup which was the most effective cross-cultural hi in any context, this was the stink that everyone loathed and feared. [laughter] and i had a sample. and actually my idea, were i not here tonight, i had an idea that perhaps the place i should open the samples was the republican national convention. [laughter] [applause] yeah. >> yeah. >> let us metaphorically right now open -- [laughter] open the stench soup and hold our noses. >> i think it would be redun adapt. [laughter] redundant. >> yeah. so, but stench soup is interesting because how it's made, it was made, the chemical senses center has a woman named pam call the to -- pam dalton ad she works with bad smells. i thought it was pretty easy, something that smells like a

latrine or whatever. she said, actually, you want to have -- you may start with a latrine. in fact, this particular stench soup, she traveled around the world in her carry-on bag little bolts labeled -- bottles labeled vomit. u.s. government standard bathroom malodor. burnt hair. she had people smell them and rate them, were they pleasant, unpleasant, did you find this odor frightening, edible, wearable? it was very hard to find a smell that all around the world somebody would say, you know, find it universally horrible. something like 3% of caucasians find the smell of vomit wearable. [laughter] so the one -- [laughter] the one that won out, that was feared and hated all over the world was u.s. government

standard bathroom malodor, and this was a compound developed in world war ii for testing latrine deyoald risers. they had to have a standard compound that really smelled rank, that smells like large, open-air, hot day, 300 men. that smell. so that was the starting point but only the starting point because if, to have an e e --ffectivemalodora, this t, it's scary. all the more reason for you to clear the room. so now here's the diabolical part. if you're designing a malodorant, it has a top note which is the first thing that you get when you take a little sniff. because when you approach a new smell, you tend to be tentative. so the top note is sort of fruity and lovely, and that encourages you on the keeper

inhale -- [laughter] >> so if you were writing a wine description for one of these, how would you describe it? >> fruity and floral top note with a robust latrine scent -- [laughter] yeah. so, and the resulting product was called stench soup. >> stench soup. >> stench suture. >> you know, you said when you were on fresh air with terry gross, you said you're not easily disgusted, and that's clear. [laughter] but were there any moments say during the writing of this book when you wished even for a moment that you were writing about the wine country, you know, napa or somethingsome. >> nope. no, no, no, really not. no, no. i think probably the closest would be pam dalton, the monell, lady, sent a bunch of these

vials to me. well-named vials. they were vile. and those were gag-worthy. i'm not a gagger in general. i don't -- it takes a lot to make me gag. >> where'd you open them? >> out on the deck. [laughter] on the deck. we were not opening them indoors. >> so that sounds like fun. what -- [laughter] i hope, i hope your husband ed wasn't grilling at the time. >> yeah, no. >> what was the most fun you had working on book? what was the most fun thing that you did? >> well, i -- ever since i saw, have you ever seen the film das boat? that film, i love that film, and i was -- i've been fascinated by submarines. and the opportunity to go onboard one out at sea was, it took a long time to set it up, but it was just really interesting. just fascinating. so i think that was -- i'd say that was the most fun for me. >> being on the trident submarine x. how long were you

on the submarine? >> about four days. >> and did you have the run of the place? or were you dodging around everywhere? >> no, there are parts of the submarine that are off limits, they are secret. they have classified information. i went into the enlisted crew lounge at one point, and on a table in the corner there's a printer, just a computer printer, and it was labeled "secret printer." [laughter] secret printer. i kept hanging out in the crew lounge, hoping something would come in on the secret printer and i could snatch it. [laughter] no. so i -- no, i couldn't go in the room. a trident sub is powered by a nuclear reactor because the idea is to stay down a long time. the idea is not to be seen or heard at all, because this is, you know, it's strategic defense. it's a third of the nuclear arsenal, basically, the third arm of it. so they're just being untrackable down there under the

water for a long time. because they don't have to refuel, having a nuclear reactor means never having to say you're sorry. [laughter] never having to refuel. [laughter] so anyway, yeah, they can stay down a long time. i, however, was only down for five days. i went out with a group of perspective commanding officers doing a practical exam, so it was perfect. i could go out when they went out and come back when they were coming back. so that worked out well. >> where did you sleep? did you have your own room? was it deluxe accommodation? >> there are no deluxe accommodations. the closest thing onboard there are the people whose beds -- >> bunks? >> i was going to say a bedpan, a mattress pan. it's a bunk, basically, on the floor. and there are, some of them, set up in between the nuclear missile silos. there's 20-something nuclear missile silos. the missile compartment is kind

of like the stacks in a university level. library. it's four levels and very, very quiet, there's not much going on, you know, or other than armageddon. [laughter] it's either armageddon or nothing. very quiet. so the people who sleep there got a good night's sleep, otherwise you're packed four, five to a rack. they call it a rack. so they're bunks, and they're very -- now, there are some submarines where depending on how big you were, you'd have to get out, if you wanted to roll over, you'd have to get out and get back in they were that -- >> [inaudible] >> yeah, it's sort of going the other way. >> so you got to see a lot of different phases of how the military operates from their uniforms to the submarines, to the work they're doing in surgery with your general injuries. if you were the roach in chief of the armed forces and could suggest one change from what you've seen in the military how something was done, what would you, what would you tell the

president, the commander in chief? what would you say that you saw that you'd really like to see changed? .. why are we here? we are all people, i love you. then contacted it and he said

no. i thought if you were in your foxhole you would be worried about untoward advances, basically weapon iced homophobia. in my head the first version -- and those suppose it sprays, in the medium, they will buy your ideas and create fondness and we all tried it and went out to dinner, we were looking at each other and at one point we said let's spray this over the west bank and gaza strip. it is great for book sales.

>> if you could add one more chapter what would it be? >> i wanted -- planned to embed -- i was going to embed with the chaplain score, the chaplains go out with units, route clearance going out on mine clearance looking for ieds and because they are with the unit, it has the same risks and they have a way to emphasize in a way therapist and support staff don't. the chaplain who doesn't carry a weapon and the chaplain's assistant covered the chaplain and who covers parry? and the coalition group is not

just the united states. during the drawdown only supporting daily journalists, not people doing long-term projects but i would have liked to embed with the fifth marine corps central battalion, the fact that there is something dental fascinated me. the marine corps -- they were doing humanitarian work. i wanted -- emergency trauma pair in a helicopter would be more inspiring. that is an intense scenario, but logistically challenging. anyway, i would like that. >> host: one more question

before getting to the q and a part of the meeting, when you see films on the field you rarely see people carrying rose of toilet paper so how do soldiers wipe their butts? wikipedia >> guest: i'm glad you asked that question. what they do, they use, this is a one serving toilet paper for combat rations, i have had speakers that say grunt, anyone who buys the book, would just -- we have 2000 of these and i can't get rid of them.

i should bring them -- >> host: for the q and a. >> guest: if you buy a book take as many as you want, left them at the table. >> guest: to my own reading of the book. >> host: i had to jot this down but a lot of people talk about what you do in your gift for being funny, how hard it is to be such a great writer, it really is beautiful, your best written book and also the final paragraph of the book, the most unlikely antiwar book ever written literally moved me to

tears. and mary will answer it and do it the other way around. >> guest: i have been doing this enough. >> host: please stand and wait for the boom microphone. >> are we ready? what is your next book? >> guest: excellent question, i wish i knew. i don't know. i am open to suggestions. if you get your book signed, it would be very negotiable, let me know. i am open to ideas. >> host: you will be next. >> guest: we need to get the boom mike. >> what was the oddest thing you found that you learned about in the book? >> guest: the oddest thing? the oddest thing, i have got one. i learned that maggots breathe through their but.

that is pretty weird. among their many, many lovely features the maggot go head down and immerse themselves in what they are eating kind of like some people at the buffet table. they immerse their head and breathe through their but. thank you for asking that. >> host: wait for the boom. >> my question is not as funny as that. i read some of your books, they take a lot of research and it takes time to do this research, you don't just do it one day. do you write your books simultaneously or one at a time? >> guest: one at a time. i start -- a new topic every chapter and always starting from

0 because i don't know anything about it. 15 chapters going at once, lovely if i could but one at a time. one at a time. >> host: questions from back in the room? ica hand in a sweatshirt or something. >> i want to say thank you, the book is fantastic. i am enjoying audible and looking forward to it during yield times. and before bed. leading to some strange dreams. i wonder if something was so disgusting you couldn't even put it in the book. >> guest: something does so disgusting i could put in the book? not something that was too disgusting, always with my books a few places where my editor just crosses it out and goes no.

sometimes it is too gross. other times i am trying to be funny in a place that is not appropriate. she did some of that. there were a couple descriptions when i was in the operating room with the surgeons showing the images, a couple things she felt were too graphic sue yes. there were a couple. never anything i had the sense to take out. >> host: sections about general surgery. >> guest: it is good i left those other parts. >> host: sir. >> would you say your greatest shortcoming as an esteemed and successful science writer is that you work too hard or are

you too smart? >> that is the best question ever. work too hard? too smart? definitely working too hard. i work too hard. get a life, mary. >> host: how are we doing for questions? >> guest: one more? >> what is your educational or experiential background that led you to have such skill in science writing? >> guest: i have a ba in psychology. that is what i have. my skill is in making and utter

pest of myself with people i am interviewing and treating them like tutors for hours at a time. that is my skill and expertise. i don't have a background in hard science. sometimes psychologists go wait a minute. psychology isn't science. >> you had an interesting job before you became a writer, you worked in the communications department where? >> guest: the zoo, san francisco zoo. >> host: what is your favorite animal? >> guest: monkeys, chimps. i am a sucker for a chimp. >> host: one last question before we get on to the signing part of the evening. you with the green sweater.

>> speaking of diarrhea. >> guest: all the best questions. >> i use cipro. the military is not aware? >> host: write them a letter. >> cipro is a pretty hard-core drug. they are aware of cipro and that is what a lot of people carry. it is faster, better, stronger, the $6 million drug. >> host: if there are no more questions we will get on to the evening. thank you for coming. ladies and gentlemen, mary roach. [applause]

>> give us a second to redo the stage, come on up and if you want to purchase books they are at the registers behind you, thanks, everybody. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> next up on booktv, mathematics professor andrew hacker discusses his book "the math myth: and other stem delusions". in it, he questions whether or not advanced math should be required in school. [inaudible coat [inaudible conversations]