transatlantic community. it has been very uncomfortable with the relationship and the controversial relationships with ups and downs. the turkish heart may not had always been in place with a trance atlantic community. and clearly in the course of the last couple of years there has been adrift away from the shared values of the trance atlantic community. and also quite a bit of hustling hassling over common interests as well has been the case. with respect to syria. i would like to argue that even if at this point in time we may not had the concrete evidence of who was behind the

coup that it is a traumatic experience allow me to equate it to september 11. this is in some ways the 911 of turkey. they remember the remark that the president of the time made. you are either with us or not. this is the psychology in which the turkish president is in and the turkish society is in as well. there is a lot that can be criticized about the turkish president and people do it in turkey is rediscovering that freedom of expression. i try to follow the debates that are taking place in turkey right now some of them

four hours long each evening. and the kinds of people that were not allowed anywhere near the media in turkey had now an opportunity to speak their mind in reflect on their experiences. and in opening my eyes as an academic in doesn't expert of turkey and maybe broader political issues. one point that has not come up so far is that the turkish society and quite a few references to the kind of people that he's following in the turkish media people who share the very values to which

the united states as a society into which the european union is committed to has huge concerns about the way in which the turkish state was penetrated. time will tell as to what the facts are but when you listen to these debates and when you listen to prosecutors military and civilian prosecutors who have in due course open cases on this issue of infiltration has actually face enticements against themselves. and today they are attributing these indictments in the way in which they were not allowed to pursue their investigations to the fact that these were blocked by prosecutors inside

the judiciary and the military officers inside the turkish armed forces. time will tell whether this is the case or not. i'm here to share this opinion that the public at large including liberal people including people who are attached to freedom of expression to human rights to the rule of law and as i listen to these debates and those of you who have some command of turkish and very willing to send the links to these debates is fascinating because these people they assure you that they really mean it the importance of making sure that the innocent is not hurt.

those who had committed a crime there. people are appointed to their position because of their medics not because they had access to questions in the exams that they needed to qualify to enter military high schools to enter the judiciary and elsewhere. i had been a university professor since 1983. i have a few ideas and a few notions they had been

compromised. they reflected selves in the bureaucracies. as this is a first-hand experience. they are also underlining this interesting expression that some of the turkish comments have invented. going back to the factory settings of the turkish republic. and the fact that referred to as secular as them. i would be one of the first to argue that it's a bit ambitious to argue that democracy was a factory

setting back in 1923. i think democracy at the time it was certainly met against the best ground. it happened there. and since then turkey has experience i have lived through every single summer of them. recollection i have it was in the streets. that's all i have. that is my notion of

politics. but i do see them there standing and then came 1971 i was just at the verge of starting university and i saw what happened. it was nothing. young men of my age were executed and then the turkish society and state regretted it this is the turkish society regretted that three ministers were hung in 1960. and then came 1980. luckily i was in london as a graduate student and i heard it through that bbc world. then in 1997 i won't go into

the details of it. and then in 2007 came the so-called era coup. we are citizens of a country that have these. but never was that parliament attacked. and i am still trembling that the turkish is a parliament that has been sitting since april 1920. whoever might be behind the coup i think the west and the united states and the european union i empathize greatly i understand that they are angry towards the turkish government and maybe towards the president for the kind of language he may be.

finding the means for it. but the united states i think the u.s. is moving in that direction. this is a trauma. that's different than 911. they are proud that the turkish public went out into the streets and stopped in its trails they stood up in front of tanks. how did the west respond to what happened in 1989 in bmg. they have to throw themselves under the pack not to be

crushed by it. where is the empathy. they came together the republicans people party the nationalist party they all got together instantly while i'm so disappointed i was here the u.s. government the first line that came out from the secretary of state from which i have very high regard in respect was a hesitant one. calling all parties to restraint how can you call all parties to restraint. when one is leading a coup against the government. in terms of the norms et cetera.

you can do it. and it was only after a bit later a statement making clear that turkey was not going to be treated like egypt. how do they feel about it. how do they feel about this tweet that i'm going to read to you. sorry i had aged. i need reading glasses. i hope this is not true but this is a tweet from the new york times it is a tweet with a link to a new york times article with a different title but the title is the supporters and they will

follow whatever they said. you may not like it. their question marks about how fair the election was. and then the government is presiding that are questioned with the issues whether they can preside or not. it can be challenged. but the government right now is in power with 49% of the votes. this is not what they deserve the people who voted for that particular political party. neither did the others who voted for the other opposition.

i don't want to go on and i realize i promised myself promise myself i was going to speak only for ten minutes to be on the safe side. i would like to see the european union and the united states to give turkey the benefit of the doubt. like in 1946 the units dates gesture at the time sending them to the dimmable hardware made out of turkey and democracy a problematic democracy and then eventually that country evolved into a major economic powerhouse. in spite of all of the problems in the country this is an economy that is still growing at four to 40%.

many in europe are secretly wishing that they could do the same. how did turkey come here and this is where i risk falling into serious trouble with general public opinion in turkey it's because turkey was part of the western alliance. yet, right now there's preposterous allegations against the united states but you have to understand the context. one of the commanders that has been stopped and arrested with the u.s. authorities the turkish public are asking the question how on earth the

superpower like the united states would not know about what's going on. it's what they've missed out on. they are actually in right now. today i listened to the parliamentary group who have come clearly with the intent of trying to build little bridges and recognize that they need that they cannot afford to burn bridges with the western alliance towards which there is this anger in the european union. they will be meeting with vladimir putin.

is it really an alternative for turkey. that they had suggested. turkey needs an economy and i think those who are running turkey right now recognize it even more in this particular context. so to wrap up it's a difficult situation time will make it much clear but given error to the turkish public. the only disappointing part of the delegation was that i wish it was there as well. i don't know what the effect was. the formation of the delegation was.

i remain frankly hopeful i cannot afford to say anything to the contrary. that they will come out to the right. they will come out with a helping hand imagine they have not sailed into these humble harbors in turkey had not become part of the trans- atlantic community. the european union does not need to worry about turkey migration deal. because i think the picture would've been a very different one and the same thing for the fight against isis as well. i'm really sorry that i went on.

thank you very much. [applause]. >> that is a hard act to follow. i want to thank you for having me it is a pleasure to be here with you all of today. i think i'm gonna take a different tone than her previous speaker what i want to talk about today is the troubling trends that we seen in turkey over the last three to four years and what i would argue today was the events that we have seen after the coup has accelerated those trends in my view and i believe that is very worrying for the u.s. and turkey relationship and i will explain. to understand where we are i also think it's important to backtrack and take a quick

look at our recent past i will start in december of 2012 when reports began to emerge of a scheme that was uncovered where turkey was working very closely with iran for the gas for gold scheme. now if you would recall the pressure was on because of its nuclear program and sanctions were at their peak and it was a race against the clock. there was an attempt to squeeze i run as much as possible to prevent it from getting a nuclear weapon. turkey was instrumental in helping iran invade sanctions. it was roughly half -- half of the cash reserves at the time.

this gave them more time and more leverage as it negotiated with the west i will get to it a little bit later but we learned quite a bit about that scheme and individual now is about to stand trial and i will explain how he fits in in just a little bit later. this was of course the real concern that turkey was working against the western coalition at that time. here you have a nato country that is undermining the global effort to curtail the nuclear program. and then fast forwarded to any 13. we began to see very troubling reports of turkish meddling in syria. i agree with it very much in terms of its efforts to bring down the regime and i think

many here in this country would we are looking at something with genocide right now. it's very understandable that the government would be opposed. what we saw during that time and what we seen sense as a concerted effort on the part of the government to empower a broad range of actors that are involved in the syria conflict some of whom who are very troubling. i can tell you from a report that i wrote we talked a of former government officials who were talking to them about their border policy they have allowed for fighters to cross from turkey into isis and what we heard from these officials was that it was a turkish strategy to try to bring down the outside regime without

having to get involved personally so it was a proxy war. they were not distinguishing between the so-called moderate rebels and so what we saw was a very troubling trend of traffic we saw them. going into these territories. obviously a stream of fighters who were coming in mostly fine and making their way east and crossing their way over for a fee of $25 or more. we saw an oil pipeline that was coming out of syria into turkish territory and this has been documented by many journalists at this point i think probably the best report is the one done by buzz feed. it was very clear that the groups were able to sell their oil onto the black market through the turkish middleman

and they were again turning a blind eye to this activity. we saw the sale in recent years. so what we saw that it have become a zone of illicit finance. support for a range of actors and there was a lot of concern that was a voiced voiced quietly by u.s. government officials via discussions they were rarely invoiced beyond a whisper. from the vice president joe biden and a few others. they are concerned about these finance issues. just a side note this was a failed strategy on the part of turkey. i thickly seen blowback. inside turkish territory. we had been noting for the last couple of years there was a potential for them to be growing inside of turkey.

but rather we were beginning to see that there were recruitment sales in supporters that were based in places like ankara and is symbol. and then in september 2013 there was another new story that further indicated strained ties. this is a contract that was signed with the chinese company this one contract to sell weaponry to the turks outside of the nato umbrella. and allies were beginning to voice concerns about the sale because of the potential for integration of this system. and what this might mean for cyber attacks and gaining information about weapons. and then in december 2013 we

saw the week of the prosecutor's report. this was where we focused a great deal on illicit finance. this of course has been attributed to the gland movement and i have no reason to doubt that. they leaked this report. it was mind-boggling. the amount of activity that was detailed in there that we saw facilitating illegal transactions. we saw classic minor --dash money laundering techniques. amazing ways of bringing money through turkey and onto places like iran. estimated to be roughly $100 billion. billy and astounding really an astounding report never quite confirmed but it did illicit a massive crackdown. it was that crackdown on the

movement in response to many of these leaks. we were not seen the turkish parliament in able to take action or be able to investigate further because this is it when they began at a slower pace. in 2014 we noted that to be there. with the un of terrorism. as a great -- gray listed country. turkey was on the list for seven years. it was simply not lamenting the recommended standards for terrorism finance. later on that year there was the hamas more with israel and we noted that the person who started that were he was the

west bank chief this is the armed ring it was his plan who facilitated in finance the plan in the west bank. that attack sparked the 2014 more. i can tell you today even with the recent approach there are still roughly a dozen hamas activists still based in turkey today. and all the while we have them fighting against the united states in terms of its involvement in the eiffel campaign. until this time roughly last year that turkey joined actively the fight against isis the fight -- they were bordering on syria. we now see turkey involved but not to the extent that i can the west would like to see it. this is given a sense that

they have not been alarmed with the united states for quite some time. and all the while we did see crackdowns on the press. turkey has been a leading jailer of terrorists. as we have already heard the current president has tried to change the system and i think he's well on the way to the ever residential system. he's consolidating power and it's also been a concern we know from state to department and other officials that this has been an ongoing topic of conversation. it brings us to the july 15th to. the crackdown continues today the consolidation continues we are seeing signals of a potential withdraw and there is concern as we have heard today of a withdrawal from the u.s. partnership at least the downgrading of it.

i think the u.s. relationship is crucial from a geographic perspective. from a bridge between the united states in the west to the middle east. there has been a lot of talk about whether turkey might be brisbane moved from nato. it will become located. i think that's an understatement. as we have studied nato not easy to join but it's also extremely difficult to be removed from it. it's kind of the hotel california. there is no wait you are leaving at least the way that things are currently constructed and i can't imagine that turkey would want to do that. but i can see a potential downgrading of ties and as we've heard a possible warming of ties. the concern now is for the airbase.

this is home to 1500 american servicemen. it is home to a number of armed drones that have been active inside syria. we have other military assets otherwise search and rescue teams which are crucial given how close they are to the syrian border to be able to tape that. both from the u.s. in from other countries that may be operating inside syria and of course it's been widely reported that the united states or western countries have terrorists. the think all of it is going on with the great straight is deeply troubling. i think right now it's going to be important for the united states to consider contingency plans for all of these military assets and for the 3,000 or so total servicemen

that are based in turkey. there is great concern that as the cia that the united states is somehow behind its coup. it seems as the serviceman who were there are subject to some danger. we've seen the protest and we seen the calls and anti- americanism that has been spiking. the key from our perspective is to try to bring turkey back into the fold. how to do this when they blame us for it. it is extremely difficult for me to see i think the rhetoric obviously needs to be tamped down. i think the extradition of this man certainly we will see that his followers were likely involved in this on some level but to be able to prove that an old man who's been living as a recluse that we could directly tie him to this

plot. i think it strikes me as extremely difficult. the other thing i will mention is the gold trader early on. this trial which is coming up in the early fall i think it has the potential to greatly strained u.s. turkish relations. the dry trial itself will be about sanctions. how one individual with strong ties was able to move so much gold and money in and out of turkey but as we now understand the story is very much involved. and if that information begins to come out in court it will be extremely volatile especially in this environment. make or break turkish relations. and might tip the scales in one way or another.

they have not been there. i think the core here has been that we are looking at a leader who has been on a slide this has been a steady trend and so there's no doubt in my mind that the coup that was attempted i can also say that what we have seen from this it has also been an assault on western values.

it is a way forward. and for right now thank you very much. >> thank you very much for the insights. and the discussion with the audience but let me ask one question i think jonathan mentioned specifically nato and the challenge there. what's really important to consider is not just what's happening today in turkey or yesterday but try to assess

the value as a partner for many decades going all the way back to the korean war in turkey and its contribution to the nato over the years as a life partner because the future of nato european security particularly against the backdrop of the refugee crisis. my question relates now to the brother i think scenario of the global dimension and the secretary general of the united nations made a statement that expressed some

great concern related to the future goal of nato as a reliable partner. and since he doesn't speak for one country but the entire membership i wonder that the secretary general actually reflect the many dozens of countries for example in the so-called arab world or the muslim world or the non- muslim world so the question to the family as can the united nations become a tool

to provide clarity to the confusion of the international community to deal with security concerns because otherwise it bodes i think quite negatively on the future of the united nations itself. >> i think that is critical. but as you mentioned the secretary is presenting all of it he cannot i guess openly speak about the issues in the region especially the human

rights violation and the freedom of turkey. it reflects the problems in the whole region in terms of fighting against terrorism in the region. ask and now especially to europe which is a big concern because turkey acts as a gatekeeper to those terrorist organizations and its essential that we stopped them at the border between they need to digest. with respect to the united nations is a general recognition that the united

nations with the political issues. it is the being question. and clearly from my point of view a world without the united nations would certainly not be better off. >> once again he has created an extraordinary panel. two aspects one is that external and the other is the internal. were talking about democracy. that's an internal thing. i like to ask a question particularly of the turks on the panel i lived lived there many years ago.

one of the things that american seizes the following. you have the leap if you will you would equate it with being liberal. the nationalist sick in nationalistic in many cases. and then what was really unknown to americans in the past and made to the turkish a large part of the population is religious. it's about 99.9% is. within the religious part of turkey which is the majority there are of course divisions some head mentioned that. so let's call that today. and then you have the

secular. these are three large elements. it strikes me that the balance in the relationship between these elements is crucial to the future of turkish democracy. i think it be very useful to add it into the mix along with all of the anguish that america is feeling. much more important is what they are thinking about turkey. that's what we think about turkey. the comments and questions from the audience. for the record here is the mike. >> thank you very much.

i want to thank all of the speakers here because i think what we got from this meeting the so far is what is really expected you are absolutely right. the turkish democracy. and were a little bit concerned because with all the blame put on them. and their role it concerns me and i'm concerned about it because basically up oppose pro- human rights movement. i don't think i see that as dangerously coming from that movement. but what i know about the movement that it is progressing. and more concerned i have to say about the other side.

the entire democratic. i think we need to know more about it. in the democratic forces behind it. enough. the stronger democracy. that is an open question. i do say how important it is. and we heard about that. and how much the queue is now blamed on the united states in the united states is behind it.

anti- americanism. some of you who know that. the anti- american 21st century. that remark to be criticized by the united states. it criticizes that behind the americanism. that is what we need to look at. last point. that's what i said at the beginning. the revolution. help us to understand who that is who are the forces behind the revolution the mayo's dangerous want so are the coup makers do they try to fight

it. let's have a discussion about that. it's very special. i think you all. >> thank you. why sell everything behind it. from an investigative point of view. as soon as i know that.

i know the soldiers not allowing it even now. almost impossible to pray openly if they were praying five times a day. so today the major things that i walked at the time and i have very much .-dot that there is a glimpse. and most of them. if it was so popular inside the military my was he

watching for the last three years all his institutions being crashed not only in turkey and didn't force him to initiation. the table. i don't by the fact that it's completely behind that but what could happen in about the military that's for sure. i think everybody from different parts of ideologies came together again cisco but they can carry it out somehow

i don't know. but how i can see that by the way we charge the forces of counterterrorism with nato and i know that there are reports are some of them at least progression. i see it very often for the last five years that the operation of turkey from the government maybe it's there.

and it is very dangerously close to the regime as behind al qaeda and. the government that i was interacting with. with ices in al qaeda members. and al qaeda like terrorist organizations but now it's been told openly in some parts are supported the organizations in the ideologies. it has now been in turkey. that's all i can say.

i'll be as brief as possible. it's hard to be brief about this. here's what i think. the problem that there very much facing i could not disagree with you wholeheartedly more. i think part of the problem is both the grand movement had been complicit it's amazing the extent that i had accomplished. in any sort of sphere. you can take it back as far as you can. the determination of the turkey was something that they were very complicit in. one of the morse progressive

education people. it resulted in a woman dying of cancer. on the one hand and has been trying to topple them. mutual attempt. as far as they could go. there was never a product about that. as far as the movement again i have never been a supporter. the national movements has had a quarrel. it's only since 2010.

since they been in a quest. they look at politics in the country as a board game of risk. let's fire 20,000 people here. let's appoint judges to this.

>> >>

in an descartes from the state to to place them in the girls' restroom the record shows even before he transition those objecting to his presence because they actually perceived him to be a boy. >> to the boy is subject? the girls subject apparently but apparently the boy is subjected to have that taken into account? >> the arguments that our consistent and if the rationale is privacy. >> but the point you made in your brief he cannot go into the women's restroom and the women don't want him there.

my question is that a meaningful fact. >> can that be taken into account? that like privacy strips but what they can do it is stop this didn't entirely. >> can you develop the title blankley? claman? >> absolutely. it covers entirely that it would